NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[AxleGreaser]

Again more than one person can see the reason for the switch. The reason was there you just dont find it reasonable.

Pretty sure, you would regard me as person that found it reasonable. (I cant remember for sure if I made all the posts i thought about (drafted) where i said as much)

However let me give you the full perspective

Spoiler: For Shiro's eyes only

Note: I often dont have what most players call a read. I have two hypothesis. 1 he scum. 2 hes town.
I have a scum story (what they were doing as they posted and why.
And a town story. When the town story becomes utter fairies at the bottom of the garden BS, I try really hard to get them lynched.

This is the Shiro scum story (actually I sometimes have multiple hypothesis on each side, this is one)(probably over the top)

Following Story spoken from inside scum!Shiro's mind

scum!Shiro. Enters the game late D1. Sweet! There is a lynch running on two townies. (Anen PereV)
(mumble around a bit to look like i am reading) 2174 2235 2404 (Oh look, I can look sincere points)
2420 test the waters on not voting PereV
Now to pick one. Aneninen looks like comparatively he couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.
Indicate intention to Vote Anen.
Ahhh Shit. Axle wants to talk to me and ask questions. 2434
and be specific (damn I was doing so fine just waffling vaguely and not referencing specific posts) 2436
nvm I will just provide descriptive not actual references/links that will discourage anybody fact checking me ever.

Oh well: Answer; Answer, slide and side step. 2436 Be convinced to Vote pereV. 2462
2488 Answer yet more Axle questions... (will this guy ever shut up!)
Oh good he(Axle) went away.
Vote Pere (the path of least resistance)

EOD1

Bonus points: posts dont reference specific things in the thread even though they were just read. Doesn't quote anything much. This makes it easier to waffle(but can be phones and stuff)
look like a obv newbtown (flipped muffins evaluation) (but i wonder... potential scummy point if later indications show otherwise) 3634 Yep shiro is a differentish player D2

I do however have trouble putting your post 3710 into that story (version of scum!Shiro)

@Slander can you tell me how twas scummy ? I still don't bloody get it

hence the not much point in anyone else reading it. However for Shiro yes, there were legitimate reasons to investigate your D1 play and vote.
Apart from anything your filter was short due to replacing, hence the error margin on any read was large.

[goodmorning]

Why leans-town Dave instead of obvscum Thor?

Because Tier is being weird about Thor today, hadn't you noticed?

[TierShift]

flub, it is time.

VOTE: dave

I'll read more throughly tomorrow.

Why leans-town Dave instead of obvscum Thor?

because thor is not really scum.

regardless of his alignment, there's at least 1 sucm on his wagon now. Who is it, according to you?

[Shiro]

@Axl yea you were one of them.

Thing is even from your scum prespective you find reason behind the vote. Slander stated the post was with no reason yet previously he stated that my voted was made in a way to pass responsibility to Thor(which in itself is a reason)

He also still hasnt answered what GM quoted.

Can I ask something Slander which was your alternative ? Yea u defended Pere the whole time yet u never really presented any wagon for people to vote how is you abstaining to vote to keep your hands clean any better ?

[AxleGreaser]

Slaandar observing all of Izs scum reads voted pereV (I think)

I worded that badly I knew it wasn't the sole reason, still, all your scumreads voted PV. It's quite an easy way to play - accuse those who voted the mislynch.

I actually find that perfectly acceptable and normal Day 2 play. You don't?

I often do see that as town play. (hunt the flipped townies wagon)

On this occasion however, at least one alternate wagon, Anen, was town and lower hanging fruit. (A safer place to hide and do not much.)
GM had the vanity tone read wagon on you.
I had what largely look to me, like OMGUS or scum on me.
+ ...
(Anen acquired some votes i regarded as reasonable when he fell off the deep end)

So as per average games I don't see a particularly good reason for scum to ride your Thor's PereV wagon.
Scum voting your wagon might easily have been challenged by PereV, for what their own reasons were.

My bet was a significant number of scum wisely stayed off the wagon where it was quiet.

A problem they are having now is explaining their do nothing D1 efforts, with their pushes D2.

I dont like GM saying nope nothing but tone D1 927
yet on D2 he claims to have re-read his D1 scum read and suddenly found all sorts of very specific stuff 3386
He claims

My failing in case-making was a failure to look at the bigger picture.

and yet lots of what he has identified from the Thor filter 2855 is individual statements about individual posts not big picture things at all.
yet on D1

On Thor is mostly a tone-based read as I think I've made clear. I don't expect anyone to believe/follow me and I'm fine with that (to all others who asked).

No details at all,
No desire to get his scum read lynched over anyone else.

[AxleGreaser]

@Axl yea you were one of them.

Thing is even from your scum prespective you find reason behind the vote. Slander stated the post was with no reason yet previously he stated that my voted was made in a way to pass responsibility to Thor(which in itself is a reason)

He also still hasnt answered what GM quoted.

Can I ask something Slander which was your alternative ? Yea u defended Pere the whole time yet u never really presented any wagon for people to vote how is you abstaining to vote to keep your hands clean any better ?

I answered "@Slander can you tell me how twas scummy ? I still don't bloody get it"
So yeah I told how Slaandar or anyone would plausibly consider your play scummy, or clearly worth investigating.

How odd now GM understands that D1 GM play (GM stands in corner doing nothing while PereV gets lynched and GMs biggest scum read skates(according to GM)) is scummy.

I note GM has simply decided to pretend I dont exist 3409 and he did that just after
lying about how many things I had typed ignored after. 3415 lie is in 3405

@Shiro
Please explain simply with links to posts what it is you are finding scummy about Slaandars play.

[AxleGreaser]

@Shiro

please feel free to disregard the request in the previous post for now. I have reconsidered how much I want to know and the legitimacy of your question.
Citing GMs opinion on others people bad (no stances taken with reasons) D1 play tends get a reaction from me
You think you may have a cat by the tail (scum) and are chasing it.
Fine go ahead.

Slander stated the post was with no reason yet previously he stated that my voted was made in a way to pass responsibility to Thor(which in itself is a reason)

Remember my way of thinking about stories, in the "Shiros eyes only" thing. A question to ask yourself. You think there is no town story for these observations of yours?
especially now that you know you did indeed look potentially scummy from the outside for your D1 play.
(Indeed you are still not obv town.)

[goodmorning]

Sort of had a vague thought - wonder how many read Axle posts still?

[AxleGreaser]

Sort of had a vague thought - wonder how many read Axle posts still?

me too.

hopefully all the townies who claim to be trying to get a read on me because they don't just know my alignment.

because if they didn't try and read me,that would be bad or scum.

as would trying to demotivate towny!Axle,
or provide scum!Axle with an excuse not to bother posting. (as no one reads Axles posts). (boo hoo.)

either that or its just be being a jerk, and I dont think GM is just a jerk

[davesaz]

For folks of advancing years like me, it's more like whether we can remember the 1st sentence of an Axle post (or sequence of posts) by the time we reach the end.

Seriously though, I'd still rather see posts than not. And the gist is usually obtainable even if the nitty gritty details escape me later.

[Flubbernugget]

flub, it is time.

VOTE: dave

I'll read more throughly tomorrow.

Why leans-town Dave instead of obvscum Thor?

because thor is not really scum.

regardless of his alignment, there's at least 1 sucm on his wagon now. Who is it, according to you?

I have to agree and say leave the dave lynch for tomorrow.

[Flubbernugget]

*agree with reinoe

[Flubbernugget]

And its a real shame to say that because of how epic a wagon that would have been with your "it is time" thing going on :/

[Izariael]

Should she have instead separated herself from the major wagons and voted for someone else entirely in a manner that would have no impact on the final result beyond pushing us closer to no-lynch?

No, I am not saying this. It's how he did it. If he had said 'Well I think they are both town so don't care which is lynched PV is larger wagon vote:PV' that would be fine but he didn't.

@Thor:

what are your thoughts pon this statement by Slandaar? He was in immediate support of your scumread on Shiro's vote, yet suggests votimg for a townread as a valid play provided the reason stated is sufficient. How does it read to you?

[Izariael]

Ugh, phone typos. I thought I got all of them.

[Izariael]

3372. The scumreads are votes that I found to be scummier than Shiro's. I didn't like their votes on day 1, and I don't like their

(Day 1)

votes now.

EBWOP for clarity.

@Slandaar: I would add TSO's Pere votes (I'm pretty sure he voted Pere twice... the first was horrible and the second wasn't great but passable as compromise lynch. I would also have found Egg's vote scummy today had he not died/flipped town.

[Thor665]

Thor says something.
Someone disagrees with it.
Thor attacks the person who disagreed with him.

Disagreeing with things that others post is not scummy.
Attacking people who disagree with you is scummy, if you do it to the degree that Thor is doing it.

I don't see any way this position can be unclear. You're welcome to disagree with it.

I'm going to address this one because, like others - I track it better than your other response.

I'm also going to note that I feel you're re-setting your read on me. You stilla re calling me scum but now there's a different set of criteria than when I started talking to you, and I don't like it.

Now addressing the actual point - you say I attack the people not the argument. I claim I attack the argument, and, if I find the argument to be nonsensical - I state as such.
At some point, i am willing to agree that this can blur the line.
That said - as far as the people I've actually called scum (and I'm using that language to rule out both GM in specific (who I *have* directly attacked her playstyle as opposed to her case...of course the case doesn't exist, but...hey ) and also I have attacked...well, *everyone in the game* for how they push lynches (or - more accurately...don't).
But besides those - no, I actually dispute your call that I'm attacking players over case.

I have called cases dumb, stupid, nonsensical, unsupported, and lies.
But I have called the cases that.
I have called lines of questioning obtuse, meaningless, and boring.
But I have called the questions that.

I'm allowed to do that.
It *is* attacking.
It is *not* attacking players - because if you want to claim I'm attacking them...I'm attacking them *through* their case, questions, attacks, et al.
That is called attacking a case.
I am doing that.
It is so far and away from being scummy that I will admit I, again, find your case shallow and lacking.

Basically you appear to be complaining that I'm mean and want to suggest that's scummy - while also overlooking that 90% of my mean-ocity is directly addressed towards cases and situations within the game - which you, at the same time, are claiming attacks on as okay.

Back up your claim - I'm calling this (like some previous things that you have failed to back up and fled on) to be more lies.
Note that I am calling your claim a lie there. Try not to freak out and claim this as more "downplaying" or something.
Because it is a downplay - but it's a downplay on a case, and a stance, and something I am openly calling a lie.

I also would like to reiterate that you haven't backed up some of your other whoppers.
I believe this is because you are scum.

[Thor665]

You did take forever to say anything of worth - and then

voted Pere out of the blue with no justification despite making a wall on Anen

. That feels wonky to me.

Here's the "wall" in question, about Anen. I note without surprise that

the first line explicitly shows Shiro's diminishing scumread on Anen.

Given the proximity of deadline I do not see any internal inconsistency there.

You took a question of content (was Pere vote justified? suspicion of Anen was dropping) and turned it into quantity (so much more thought on Anen).

So that was about content huh?
I guess I just included that note about a wall as random window dressing and what I really meant was not 'the compare and contrast of the effort for the opinion shift' but rather 'is it possible to suggest there was a presented thought flow on at least 50% of the equation I'm complaining about"

Yeah - that's what I meant.

What is this, the second OMGUS vote today?

Or third or still zero depending on how you count them.
What's this? An empty buzzword lobbed at a case to try to act like scumhunting

If you find my votes unsupported - come at me. Don't snipe from the sidelines like scum.

@Thor:

what are your thoughts pon this statement by Slandaar? He was in immediate support of your scumread on Shiro's vote, yet suggests votimg for a townread as a valid play provided the reason stated is sufficient. How does it read to you?

I will admit I do not fully track this question. I'm going to answer a couple and hopefully that will answer yours.

1. If Shiro had offered reasoning for voting Pere would you have found her vote objectionable?
2. Would you have found it less objectionable?
3. Do you find hypocrisy/contradiction in Slandaar's statement (which is sort of what I think you're asking...but it's really weirdly stated if so)

------------

1. Yes. Voting a town read is screwy - period.
2. Yes. I find it to be terrible play but am uncomfortably aware that some people consider it okay for reasons...that escape me.
3. No, since I can also hold the belief that the vote would have been less screwy if it had been discussed more I do not find it unusual that Slandaar appears to share this thought, which from what I'm reading of him appears to be what he's saying.

[Thor665]

Thor's quick primer on game advice

Hey, guys, it's less than a week till deadline.
Do we all remember how awesome the Pere wagon went?

Probably if you support the wagon on me and/or would "vote me to avoid a no lynch" then...well, ruddy vote me now, get behind your play, and put me at L-1 with hammer intent so this game can advance.

If you *don't* support me as scum/lynch to avoid no lynch then you need to get in, move your vote around and/or start pushing your case in any way at all - because otherwise you're voting for me via lazy derp rather than just liking a silly wagon.

You should all pick one.

I really like the Dave wagon right now - I will happily accept further sheep.

Hint: any wagon that isn't me or a wagon someone is actively pushing (currently that would be a wagon on Dave, as no one else is pushing gak) is a wasted vote.

Further hint: that's like half of you -stop failing at Mafia please.

[Izariael]

@Thor:

what are your thoughts pon this statement by Slandaar? He was in immediate support of your scumread on Shiro's vote, yet suggests votimg for a townread as a valid play provided the reason stated is sufficient. How does it read to you?

I will admit I do not fully track this question. I'm going to answer a couple and hopefully that will answer yours.

1. If Shiro had offered reasoning for voting Pere would you have found her vote objectionable?
2. Would you have found it less objectionable?
3. Do you find hypocrisy/contradiction in Slandaar's statement (which is sort of what I think you're asking...but it's really weirdly stated if so)

------------

1. Yes. Voting a town read is screwy - period.
2. Yes. I find it to be terrible play but am uncomfortably aware that some people consider it okay for reasons...that escape me.
3. No, since I can also hold the belief that the vote would have been less screwy if it had been discussed more I do not find it unusual that Slandaar appears to share this thought, which from what I'm reading of him appears to be what he's saying.

I think you're close to answering my question, though it wasn't really any of those three. Insightful nonetheless.

I'm mostly curious about #2. It just seems strange that you seem to be scumreading Shiro, who evidently DOES buy into the idea of voting a lesser townread to avoid no-lynch, and yet are not calling out another player who is suggesting that that same idea would be viable with slightly different execution.

Also, why do you find Shiro's vote scum-motivated if you are fully aware that townies may be in support of avoiding no-lynch by any means necessary (such as voting a townread/nullread)?

[AxleGreaser]

For folks of advancing years like me, it's more like whether we can remember the 1st sentence of an Axle post (or sequence of posts) by the time we reach the end.

in that case, the second sentence of this post contained a question, this time I checked and I dont think you answered.

BTW to hurry things along I would like, actual reasons relating to specific points. The ones you dont agree with.

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.

and what is your view on the Garmr wagon?

Don't see the reasons.

err. What do you mean?

not see == says you dont see any reasons for Garmr being scum posted in thread.
not see == you say the ones that are posted dont make sense to you.

Don't agree with.

sorry missed this (oops I am on the radar again?)

Ok so which bits, do you not agree with.

Dave I feel like I am pulling teeth, trying to get this read out of you. Why?

[Thor665]

I'm mostly curious about #2. It just seems strange that you seem to be scumreading Shiro, who evidently DOES buy into the idea of voting a lesser townread to avoid no-lynch, and yet are not calling out another player who is suggesting that that same idea would be viable with slightly different execution.

Oh, was it a lesser town read now? That's info Siro never clarified. I'll agree that makes sense to presume but...I think you're starting to notice part of the issue.
I do not agree the issue would be "viable" with a different execution but I do agree it would look 'less scummy' with a different execution.
I've been asked this before and answered already - I almost want to say you asked me this before, so this is kind of annoying now.

Also, why do you find Shiro's vote scum-motivated if you are fully aware that townies may be in support of avoiding no-lynch by any means necessary (such as voting a townread/nullread)?

Well...maybe it's for the reasons I stated as my issue with it a few dozen pages ago.
Cue reason #129847 that Thor is being

tetchy

scummy!

As I said already, many times, the issue is that Shiro went into this vast revelation where Anen went from scum to town, to the point that he was worthy of an unvote. Followed quickly by a vote for another town read.

The flow makes very little sense, and screamed out for deeper explanation. If you're going to go into a wall explaining why Anen is a town read now than probably the town read you're voting deserves, y'know, a sentence of conversation. An explanation? At least maybe a mention of 'he's town, but I have a stronger read on Anen and Thor to be town, huzzah!' something? The amount of extroversion of the Anen explanation paired with the lack for Pere made the expressed attitude and vote feel faked.

I have said this all before.

[davesaz]

I do not believe any part of the case on Garmr. How can I make that any plainer?

I don't have a town read on him either.

[davesaz]

I also would like to reiterate that you haven't backed up some of your other whoppers.
I believe this is because you are scum.

My role PM disagrees.
I am posting my

opinion

of how I see your posting. An

opinion

cannot be a lie.

But you have convinced me that my opinion should be that you're an asshole who I don't want to play with, vs. scum.

UNVOTE:

[AxleGreaser]

I do not believe any part of the case on Garmr. How can I make that any plainer?

I don't have a town read on him either.

Well you could have said "any" in a slightly longer sentence in 3654 or 3660

So, on D1 Garmr voted Anen for

stopping Garmrs pressure on Boon

(amongst the rest of this)

Spoiler: Garmrs reason for voting Anen

fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the he

stopped my pressure on boon

at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand. I believe he had to try and discredit because I don't think he was expecting to be questioned on 418 becuase he just labeled me as scum because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game, if he is going to

label me as scum

for my reasoning he should be able to show why it's flawed and then explain the scum motivation behind my post.

Do you beleieve that Anen did stop Garmrs pressure on Boon, and more importantly how do you think Garmr came to that conclusion when Garmr also claimed

fails to do so as my points still actually stand.

How can Garmr both claims Garmrs points still stand and garmr pressure on Boon was stopped by Anen.

Things you may need to comment sensibly are
Garmrs previous pressure on Boon 133 139 189 (GARMR backs off all by himself Garmr[ "

but I guess it answers my question.

" ]
Garmrs most recent pressure on boon (reverses previous "

answers my question interpretation

" (AKA almost no pressure at all)

Anen then posts this 418
Garmr has described that post as

labelling him scum

! Chainsaw for boon, WhiteKnight for Boon
Anens post says "

If you have told that you had voted for Boonskiies because of lurking and producing nothing I would have believed it.

Which I would suggest is at least as striong a reason for pressuring Boon as Garmr's RVS push which he already once said was Ok.

I see no reasonable way town Garmr can reach the conclusions he does.

Scum!Gramr however has his false soft pressure vote on Boon taken away when Boon soft claims.
Scum!Garmr blames Anen.

So you can make it plainer by explaining why you don't regard these actions by Garmr as scummy.