NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[davesaz]

Why are you bugging

me

about it? I'm the piece of shit who lies about all of his opinions anyway.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP forgot a link to Garmrs actual pressure Boon post

Garmrs most recent pressure on boon (reverses previous "answers my question interpretation" (AKA almost no pressure at all)

and that pressure is entirely in the third paragraph of 415 and the vote

[davesaz]

And before anybody goes like "ooh, AtE". It's real folks. NOBODY calls me a liar. Even when I'm scum, I do my best not to lie. I'm WRONG a lot, but I avoid LYING at all costs.

[AxleGreaser]

Why are you bugging me about it?

I'm the piece of shit who lies about all of his opinions anyway

.

that wasnt/isnt my opinion

I am bugging you about it because

I think Garmr is scummy and i want you to vote him or explain why not.
If your reasons are valid, perhaps I ought hear them and stop voting him too.

On the other hand I am hoping that when you explain them, I can point out why your problems with the wagon are wrong and then we can lynch Scum garmr.

That is the point of the game?

[Thor665]

And before anybody goes like "ooh, AtE". It's real folks. NOBODY calls me a liar. Even when I'm scum, I do my best not to lie. I'm WRONG a lot, but I avoid LYING at all costs.

Then I would have preferred more admission of your multiple mistakes early on as opposed to drawing it out and calling me a Smurfhole for pointing out that you had very questionable awareness of the case you were pushing on me.

Y'know, when someone says stuff that 'is not correct' I will point out that I'm actually giving you the benefit of the doubt by calling you scum because I don't believe town would push something they are aware that they have a questionable grasp of.

Who do you think is scum now that I'm just a jerk?

@Axle - do you think that Garmr wagon has any real traction?

What's your read on Dave, Iz, and GM?

[Thor665]

Though actually I have to admit that Dave's AtE is working on me.
Admission of utter wrong is not something scum usually care to do to themselves.

Unvote: Dave
Vote: Goodmorning

How many OMGUS votes is that for me now?

[Thor665]

@Dave - is there any other game on this site or another where someone called you a liar and you had a similar reaction?

[Thor665]

If the answer is 'no' I may just reverse this town read - let's call you a 'balancing on null' read instead.

[davesaz]

Tone. You've done the same thing to at least three people (Pere, Muffin, me). Do you act this way all the time?

It's not the type of thing you can really prove. Deep down it still screams scum, but don't think I've had a successful scum catch on this site yet. The one I actually did have pegged was BBT in the newbie, and he got away with it. I don't have legendary status here so even if I'm right nobody is likely to believe me.

But I can say with certainty that between the things that you're doing, and Axle's pages of walls a day, and GM's sensei routine, I don't have a clue who is scum. At least one with a postcount less than mine, probably.

Pedit - is suggesting scanning my posts for a phrase a mention of events in an ongoing game? I know that I clearly can't post a link... I will refrain from saying anything further. And TBH it could be in one of two games, one of which is finished...

[davesaz]

EBWOP: There should be at least one scum with postcount less than mine.

[Izariael]

I'm mostly curious about #2. It just seems strange that you seem to be scumreading Shiro, who evidently DOES buy into the idea of voting a lesser townread to avoid no-lynch, and yet are not calling out another player who is suggesting that that same idea would be viable with slightly different execution.

Oh, was it a lesser town read now? That's info Siro never clarified.

I'll agree that makes sense to presume but...I think you're starting to notice part of the issue.

If you have been asked/answered this or other questions previously, then I wasn't able to find the posts while on my phone at work. Linking the post would work fine if you feel you've answered a question to your satisfaction earlier already, then I can re-evaluate my question as necessary.

Anyways, moving right along. I do think Shiro made it clear that she townread you more than Pere throughout the day from the time of her replacement up until her final vote of the day, which is why I see the Pere vote as an understandable progression.

Both Pere and Thor lynch seems bad to me.

Thors lynch I just cannot see it.

Par a small part where he wasn't all that active I cannot see as scum at all like. Why does that wagon exist ?He was the only one trying to get town to do anythimg early on and kept it up. There has been some back and forth but still. Is that me being too newbie to see something here :/

Pere is honestly the same but less regard.

He is only off when talking with Thor but most people that argued with thor ended up seeming off after it is that a thing ? I did notice he has a knack for winning argument. The fact that most people on pere wagoon have little reason of their own and just follow thor is off by itself . Especially earlier. Liek using Thor abbility to push well to further a lynch. He pretyt much hold his own when talking to others about the case.

Her 2462 reads as a player asking one townread (you) to reconsider their opinion on another townread (Pere), referencing the 500-600 post mark (indirectly) as a point of the game that she felt should have changed the dynamic between you two that instead remained static (which I agree with entirely, as mentioned previously)

And her final post of the day with her Pere vote again re-stated that she felt the wagon on you was horrible as she did in her opening posts, which is still in line with townreading you more than Pere.

[AxleGreaser]

@Axle - do you think that Garmr wagon has any real traction?

What's your read on Dave, Iz, and GM?

I think it had more votes and traction than any wagon except the one on you appeared to have.
I think it has good basis. That it has had so little impact makes me wonder how i should have explained it.

reads on Dave Iz and GM (you probably wont like the first two)

Spoiler: Dave

Dave has started confusing me.
D1 on D1 I liked, various stuff he wrote. He was a town read.
290 was one reason I wondered about the plausibility of TSO/csaero being one scum/one town,
but "angry young person" felt like a truthful read. Some Scum can make up convenient ones, by squinting. Dave now tells me i should discount that as he plays truthful always.
Stuff like that kept feeling right. (We are of similar age, and hence share some perspectives on life I am guessing.)
If I was less familiar with your(Thors) play Id probably react worse. But TBMK you only said his post were lies(untruths) which is different to calling him a liar in my book.
So I still have trouble with this recent "thing" and do yet have a read adjusted to include that.

I also liked daves question of GM yesterday. It ends here 1839 in a whimper of agreement.? Started at 1624

I think I had seen other people have suspicion of dave, and didnt reject it out of hand but hadn't seen any points that made traction on me.

What has been seeming weird to me today is his relationship to Goodmorning, but when i look for specifics I only found 2809 it seems like its bit of a stake in the ground to completely change directions and the post is to make sure that is there. Feels oddly introspective.
(Its possible my memory is playing tricks and i confused him with (someone else +GM). Oh my.)

leans town (but on very shakey support.)
There are two+one reasons to talk to Dave about my Garmr read. (improve both reads, drive the wagon)

leans town (but on very shakey support.)

Spoiler: Izariel

Hmm this one I am making up as i go. (been in the too hard, not today, basket)
Felt Ok most of D1. Not especially towny or scummy. Scripten push was Ok.
From some points of view, Thor is an annoying obstinate bastard, its hard to fault people for scum reading him. 1569 is pretty good reason to not vote PereV
(applies to D2 aswell Iz voting Thor over PereV 1569)

This push back into thor D2 is also awful to read or get reads out of.
My early conclusion was you and Muffin wee probably TvT for some reason.
That it was all around Shiro did let me improve my read on Shiro, but other than that most of the points by most people were awful. (not alignment indicative)
Then it got argued about and agued about....
There may be opportunistic scum piling on you. And there may well be townies. You wrote you how to read Thor missive for reason, and its that tonwies misread you as scum when your town for reasons...
Choosing on Iz is still in the too hard basket.
There remains for me a real chance your scum too. Even if you are I expect he is right for the wrong reasons...

So if you or someone else wants him to get close to the people I do scum read in scumminess, you will have to explain it to me, probably like i am 5.

leans town (with lots of I dont know)
If someone wants me to vote IZ today they are going to have to explain it and answer lots of questions.

Spoiler: GM

Haven't liked Gm since the tone read stage.
Had a variety of theories (some of them playing town in a way I think is _bad_.
They are fast running out.

Not a fan of people (who claim to be on my team) putting their finger sin their ears and saying la la la
I claim there is risk, scum have to take by talking to me, town ought take it as its less for them.

This post 3872 has IMO no towny redeeming features at all. I don't even care if it is factually correct and he did think that. he either has to >85% believe I am scum or is playing on a different team to me.
Then there are all the posts, highlighting how his reads come out of nowhere (conveniently placed rereads) Is accusing you of being scum for wishy washy reads and the like(Whatever)) when his reads and he knows he's town were basically not much or nothing on D1. Claiming openess and then being anything but isn't real good either.


at least: leans scum

at least: leans scum

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP:
In spoiler on GM

Then there are all the posts

by me where I

highlight how his reads come out of nowhere

[AxleGreaser]

@Dave
So id still like a response to what you dont like about 3799

Also given recent events, regarding truthiness, I hate to say this but

This post seems to be factually inconsistent with

For folks of advancing years like me, it's more like whether we can remember the 1st sentence of an Axle post (or sequence of posts) by the time we reach the end.

this post

I do not believe any part of the case on Garmr. How can I make that any plainer?

I don't have a town read on him either.

for you to disagree with every part of the case, you would have to have read every part of the case,
and remember it

So have you read all of the case and remembered more than the first sentence of an Axle post?
if so what was the pro town point of 3784
or how do you know the case is wrong if you cant remember it?

[AxleGreaser]

gak. EBWOP^EBWOP

EBWOP:
In spoiler on GM

Then there are all the posts

by me where I

highlight how his reads come out of nowhere

also link to post 3872 is wrong its

This post

3872

3782 has IMO no towny redeeming features at all.

[Slandaar]

I actually find that perfectly acceptable and normal Day 2 play. You don't?

I find it very coincidental and I do not like coincidences. He stated they are not the only reasons for having them as his scumreads while also saying they made the worst votes. Not one other person who didn't make a bad vote on Shiro (his POV) is there or in fact anyone who made a bad vote on Shiro (again his POV) is nowhere but his scumreads.

[Slandaar]

The usual reason that town vote a wagon is needing to avoid a no-lynch. Because the situations where no-lynch helps town are slim to none. Town often vote a less scummy player in order to avoid a no-lynch. For this reason, I do not use "strength of read" as the determining factor in interpreting someone else's vote, especially early game.

Oh I see, thank you very much for your well written explanation

[Slandaar]

Pedit: It is not unusual for town to avoid saying at the time that they are only voting to avoid a no-lynch. Precisely because the scum can latch onto that kind of statement to press a bogus case for a mislynch.

But if everyone knows town are doing this at deadline how could anyone possibly accuse someone of doing it as scummy and get any kind of traction let alone a mislynch off it?

[Slandaar]

On this occasion however, at least one alternate wagon, Anen, was town

This is a very good point actually.

[Slandaar]

IZ's View of the game:

Votecount 1.16

[7]

PeregrineV:

Egg

,

Thor665, Scripten

, davesaz,

The Fonz, Boonskiies,

T S O

[4]

Aneninen:

WBOCampfire1104, Muffin, TierShift, Garmr
[4]

Thor665:

goodmorning, Nero Cain, flubbernugget, Izariael
[1]

goodmorning:

Slandaar
[1]

Scripten:

PeregrineV
[1]

Slandaar:

Aneninen
[1]

T S O:

AxleGreaser
[1]

WBOCampire1104:

Grayfoxxxx


[1]

Not Voting:

hephaestus

Red = Scum. Blue also applies to all Red's.
Blue = suspicious vote on PV.

It's just not very believable.

[Izariael]

Yes, because I have claimed to have solved the game and pegged every single scum.... lol

I don't doubt I'm wrong on one of my scumreads. I think it's a bit preposterous to think that I was claiming as much. You asked whose votes I found scummier than Shiro's, I gave an answer. Scumreads on the players in question took place prior to, at the time of and after their votes. Having a Pere vote in common *is* a coincidence. Given that 12 people were on the wagon, I don't see why you find it unfeasible to be a coincidence.

[Slandaar]

I might be mistaken but I do not remember you defending Peregrine yesterday from what you view as a wagon full of scum.

[Slandaar]

And I am not implying anything about solving the game. It isn't natural the way your reads have developed into a block like that.

[Izariael]

So you feel that there's no natural progression to my scumreads because they have a characteristic in common, that they also share with 8 other people. Is that what you're attempting to illustrate with this?

[Izariael]

I might be mistaken but I do not remember you defending Peregrine yesterday from what you view as a wagon full of scum.

PeregrineV's sheep on my vote was unexpected and unusual, but it's kind of the only red flag I've seen from him. PeregrineV's play here seems consistent with what I've seen from Town!Peregrine, so I don't really have a scum read on his slot at this time. I think Peregrine has a tendency to appear pretty scummy as town, so my past experience with him has me trying to look past my initial misgivings of his play and look for alternative motivations that could come from town. I'm still undecided on how I feel about him, but it's definitely not a "he must be scum" feeling.

this was in a post directed at Scripten regarding his intent to sheep Thor's vote.

For what it's worth, as of page 50 I still think the PeregrineV wagon is lame and should be looking for a new target to pressure. Peregrine's behavior is identical to his town play from my previous game with him, to the point where I can pretty much predict what he's gonna say before I even read his posts. Pretty strong town vibes there, so unless something changes in the remaining 13 pages he's a will-not-vote from me.

this was while catching up from a series of internet and power outages and noticing that Pere wagon was picking up speed.

Peregrine vs. Thor is causing my brain to implode on itself from boredom. Both are guilty of creating equal parts intensity and apathy in this game, which is equal parts intriguing and frustrating. However, having played with town-Peregrine very recently, his posting style and the arguments he's been making fall in line with what I am expecting from town-Peregrine. Unless someone is wanting/able to show that he plays his town and scum games identically, then his behavior here has me reading him as town...

I think I need to ISO Thor once I'm caught up fully, because reading his posts right now is like listening to the teacher from Peanuts. The only thing I've managed to retain from his spiels is that he's townreading all of the people on the Pere wagon... and some comment about how the people he's townreading haven't been wagoned. Or something. Yeah, I'll probably find something later to jog my memory. It's on one of these tabs I'm sure. Bottom line is: I think he's a much better lynch than Peregrine, whom I have deemed to be a mislynch.

Aneninen looks a little suspicious. Fonz feels like scum to me.

VOTE: Thor665

this was while *still* catching up (I never did catch up fully until Night 1) and when I voted Thor to attempt to counter Pere lynch. It also illustrates my scumread on Fonz at the time (his entrance and vote were part of it. I didn't like his vote even prior to Pere's flip)

____________________________________

Sooo.... yeah. My Day 1 didn't go as intended. Pere got lynched. It seemed strangely inevitable. I would have ppreferred to see a number of lynches besides my top townread.