NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[Izariael]

First of all, the context of our discussion earlier involved votes on the Pere wagon, not all voting overall, so I don't find this representative of my current view of the game.

Second, if you're going to attempt to call my reads un-natural because of a perceived block, at least use the final vote count rather than using one that you think illustrates your point best.

Votecount 1.FINAL

[12]PeregrineV:

Egg

,

Thor665, Scripten, The Fonz,

davesaz, TierShift, Shiro,

T S O

, Garmr, AxleGreaser, Muffin,

Boonskiies

-- LYNCH

Third, I haven't forgotten that you tried to get on the wagon alongside Boonskiies as well at the very end, which I also found scummy AF, regardless of how you tried to play it off as a joke. However as it was not officially counted as a vote I did not include it in our discussion of votes on Pere's wagon.

[Slandaar]

The characteristic we are talking about is people who voted PV with actual reasons

[Slandaar]

Which is why we ignore half the votes on the wagon and use a previous VC.

[Slandaar]

Why if I were scum would I try to get on a lynch on town which 100% is happening and I have defended them all game?

Clearly that was a joke.

[Izariael]

Why if I were scum would I try to get on a lynch on town which 100% is happening and I have defended them all game?

Clearly that was a joke.

There is so much WIFOM in that joke that I can't dismiss it as one.

[Izariael]

Which is why we ignore half the votes on the wagon and use a previous VC.

That is not reflective of how *I* evaluated the votes, and therefore fails to adequately represent my views to do so.

[Izariael]

Which is why we ignore half the votes on the wagon and use a previous VC.

That is not reflective of how *I* evaluated the votes, and therefore fails to adequately represent my views to do so.

For example, it was not Boonskiies first Pere vote that I scumread, but rather his second where he went several posts prod dodging then hammered Pere with a naked vote. I found it unsavory.

[Slandaar]

Why if I were scum would I try to get on a lynch on town which 100% is happening and I have defended them all game?

Clearly that was a joke.

There is so much WIFOM in that joke that I can't dismiss it as one.

Seems backwards. Either I was joking as town or joking as scum so WIFOM can't dismiss?

Which is why we ignore half the votes on the wagon and use a previous VC.

That is not reflective of how *I* evaluated the votes, and therefore fails to adequately represent my views to do so.

The latter votes have minimal reasoning to none so there is very little assessment to be made on whether they were scummy or not. Basically what looks fake is; your scumreads are the people who voted PV with reasoning before deadline.

[Izariael]

Seems backwards. Either I was joking as town or joking as scum so WIFOM can't dismiss?

Or you weren't joking. There lies the WIFOM.

[Izariael]

The latter votes have minimal reasoning to none so there is very little assessment to be made on whether they were scummy or not. Basically what looks fake is; your scumreads are the people who voted PV with reasoning before deadline.

And yet you're scumreading Shiro's vote, while saying that her vote is irrelevant to my observations of the Pere wagon. Clearly, the amount of reasoning attached to a vote does not determine whether a vote can be evaluated.

[Slandaar]

Or you weren't joking. There lies the WIFOM.

Then respond to the point.

The latter votes have minimal reasoning to none so there is very little assessment to be made on whether they were scummy or not. Basically what looks fake is; your scumreads are the people who voted PV with reasoning before deadline.

And yet you're scumreading Shiro's vote, while saying that her vote is irrelevant to my observations of the Pere wagon. Clearly, the amount of reasoning attached to a vote does not determine whether a vote can be evaluated.

Yes.

In terms on looking at the votes I am saying as scum it is easy to scumread the people who put the most reasoning into their votes on the mislynch and ignore the other people who jumped on later. Shiro's vote complies with the latter. Looking at the people who posted reasoning we get the VC I posted obviously you might be able to argue a name onto it but the point still stands.

[davesaz]

@Dave
So id still like a response to what you dont like about 3799

Also given recent events, regarding truthiness, I hate to say this but

This post seems to be factually inconsistent with

For folks of advancing years like me, it's more like whether we can remember the 1st sentence of an Axle post (or sequence of posts) by the time we reach the end.

this post

I do not believe any part of the case on Garmr. How can I make that any plainer?

I don't have a town read on him either.

for you to disagree with every part of the case, you would have to have read every part of the case,
and remember it

So have you read all of the case and remembered more than the first sentence of an Axle post?
if so what was the pro town point of 3784
or how do you know the case is wrong if you cant remember it?

Ah, an easy question. 3784 is a joke about middle aged people, with a second goal of hopefully prodding you to cut down the size to something manageable. (the town motivation is in lowering the volume slightly, and I'm not the only person who suggested that)

Not liking the case is driven more by not liking the posting style. I have a hard time with trusting the 1000 word essays. (possibly an exaggeration, but in which direction ) And I am mistrustful of the really heavily attacking style. Kinda the same reaction I have to Thor's posting, though it is being used in a different way. In academia I'd call it "proof by intimidation". I played with someone on another site who constantly got away as scum by diving into every game as uber town, usually having both the most, and the longest and most aggressive posts. It got to the point that the best scumtell on him was that he didn't get NK'd on N1. He stopped playing after he started getting PL'd every time he lived to D2, and mafia caught on and stopped NKing him..

I think I

might

have said before in this game that I'd pay more attention to that set of evidence if it wasn't you driving it. It's certainly not a new thought on my part, just don't know if I've been open enough with my feelings on the matter to say it.

I don't remember, is Garmr replacing out? If so, is it squicky to you to lynch a position which is pending a replace?

[reinoe]

flub, it is time.

VOTE: dave

I'll read more throughly tomorrow.

Why leans-town Dave instead of obvscum Thor?

because thor is not really scum.

regardless of his alignment,

there's at least 1 sucm on his wagon now.

Who is it, according to you?

1) Why is thor not really scum?
2) Why is Dave somehow scummier than thor?
3) How do you know the stuff in red? Thor's wagon looks towny therefore I can't be sure who's the scum on it.

[davesaz]

IZ's View of the game:

Votecount 1.16

[7]

PeregrineV:

Egg

,

Thor665, Scripten

, davesaz,

The Fonz, Boonskiies,

T S O

[4]

Aneninen:

WBOCampfire1104, Muffin, TierShift, Garmr
[4]

Thor665:

goodmorning, Nero Cain, flubbernugget, Izariael
[1]

goodmorning:

Slandaar
[1]

Scripten:

PeregrineV
[1]

Slandaar:

Aneninen
[1]

T S O:

AxleGreaser
[1]

WBOCampire1104:

Grayfoxxxx


[1]

Not Voting:

hephaestus

Red = Scum. Blue also applies to all Red's.
Blue = suspicious vote on PV.

It's just not very believable.

Let me see if I've got this straight. Are you saying that Iz has not scumread a single person who is off the PereV wagon at that point in time? Or did you just fail to trim the other lines from the VC?

First of all, the context of our discussion earlier involved votes on the Pere wagon, not all voting overall, so I don't find this representative of my current view of the game.

Second, if you're going to attempt to call my reads un-natural because of a perceived block, at least use the final vote count rather than using one that you think illustrates your point best.

Votecount 1.FINAL

[12]PeregrineV:

Egg

,

Thor665, Scripten, The Fonz,

davesaz, TierShift, Shiro,

T S O

, Garmr, AxleGreaser, Muffin,

Boonskiies

-- LYNCH

The characteristic we are talking about is people who voted PV with actual reasons

No comment one way or the other on whether that was what you were talking about, but I'd question whether it is a good way to restrict the data. Scum who hop on late with little or no reason have a built-in alibi of town motivation to ensure a lynch of some kind. You can't scum hunt on late hops alone, but it gives a straightforward way of cutting down the suspect pool to a manageable size, for deeper investigation. And I don't necessarily buy the notion that early votes with reasons is the best pool, other than to scan for bogus reasons. I tend to look for off wagon with reasons for that part of the suspect pool.

Which is why we ignore half the votes on the wagon and use a previous VC.

That is not reflective of how *I* evaluated the votes, and therefore fails to adequately represent my views to do so.

For example, it was not Boonskiies first Pere vote that I scumread, but rather his second where he went several posts prod dodging then hammered Pere with a naked vote. I found it unsavory.

I'd lean disagreement here, unless there was prior evidence that Iz was evaluating using the whole vote. If there were such evidence, then I'd lean toward thinking the trimmed vote is a misrep.

The latter votes have minimal reasoning to none so there is very little assessment to be made on whether they were scummy or not. Basically what looks fake is; your scumreads are the people who voted PV with reasoning before deadline.

And yet you're scumreading Shiro's vote, while saying that her vote is irrelevant to my observations of the Pere wagon. Clearly, the amount of reasoning attached to a vote does not determine whether a vote can be evaluated.

Looks like a contradiction on Slandaar's part.

In terms on looking at the votes I am saying as scum it is easy to scumread the people who put the most reasoning into their votes on the mislynch and ignore the other people who jumped on later. Shiro's vote complies with the latter. Looking at the people who posted reasoning we get the VC I posted obviously you might be able to argue a name onto it but the point still stands.

Ah, so you are arguing that scum could scum read people with reasoning votes, but scum can't scum read people with no reasoning votes?
I don't see how the 2nd half of that follows. While it would be difficult to make a case solely on a no reasoning vote due to the WIFOM resulting from "town needs a lynch", you're making a leap that the no-reasoning vote is the only evidence the hypothetical scum can use to make a case.

[davesaz]

Catching-up.

Garmr, 360: This was just WTF. What Tha Fukk.

Garmr, 415 – that vote, uhhh. If you have told that you had voted for Boonskiies because of lurking and producing nothing I would have believed it. But, what kind of reasoning was that?


some reads.

Garmr is FoS-Scum.

Having trimmed down Aneninen's 418 to a manageable size, I see that there

is

a Garmr scum read there. Doesn't this contradict Axle's statement that Garmr thought Anen was scum reading him but really wasn't?

@anenien
What's wrong with my reasoning?

Boonskies was the fact he needed to clarify that those were rvs votes.¹ No one really asked him for it and it seems odd as town why you feel the need to say hey this is a rvs vote. He really hasn't done anything to strike me as town either.² Also he dodged the csereo subject and didn't give his thoughts on it which made me feel uncomfortable.³

(1) Boonskiies was just being Boonskiies. I can tell you I've seen that. Even if you haven't come across with him, why is it a scumtell?
(2) So? Hasn't done anything to strike me as town either? This description fits quite a lot of people here.
(3) He has dodged almost every subject so far.

I'm not saying that he's town. He may be scum. But, NOT because of your reasons, Gammrnmhrm.

1.I'm not the only one who thought that was scummy (thor did) and how is that even a defence boon skies is boon skies. Like i said why would town need to clarify themselves.

2.Well if the only thing that strikes me are scum points thenwhy should I think his town?

3.You just made my point even stronger. Dodging subjects is town how?

Is there something abnormal about this interaction? Doesn't look like Garmr has backed down on Boon, and it does look like Anen is trying to get him to back down. Doesn't this contradict Axle's version of this event?

Side note: At this point in time I thought that Anen's mispronouncing of people's names was scummy, and intended to anger them into bad reactions.

[davesaz]

Next Axle point, Garmr dropped Boon and switched to Anen because Anen made him drop boon.

Starting from the actual event...

If you don't like Aneninen, try using your vote. I hear all the cool kids are doing it these days.

Well I would, but my vote's on my top scumread atm.

That's fair enough. I was talking more to Garmr.

I might talk to you about your Anen read a bit when I have time - that's not now. Probs tomorrow.

Boon skies is my top scumread but Aneninen is a close 2nd. I would really prefer if you jumped on the boon wagon with me.

So Garmr already had a scum read on Anen. There has been almost no posting in Garmr's ISO in between the posts I just quoted and this one. Not a very big leap of faith that Garmr's scum read on Anen came from those posts.

Don't push me to claim, please.

I'm almost positive it's multiball. My role basically implies it.

Kinda annoyed that someone would passively role claim day 1 with only one vote on them. If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum. Unless your just saying that to get some town cred but that will sort itself out in time.

UNVOTE: boon

VOTE: Aneninen

Boon claims, Garmr switches. Null at best, this is certainly not a scumtell and I could even see scum staying on and trying to get Boon to clarify since it is in scum's interest to figure out the role (unless someone calls them on it, in which case they say they're just checking for BS and drop the vote).

Garmmrn, 646 – I'll ignore your vote until you provide any reasons for it. I don't think you're surprised now.

Maybe you should check my iso and you would find the reasons because I did put some of my thoughts out on you.

Anen asked why the vote, Garmr says it should be obvious why.

@Garmmr: I've already checked but apart from the part that "I'm the close 2nd" and the part where I questioned your Boonskiies vote I have found nothing.

Tomorrow I may have more time. I'll check the posts between Thor and PeregrineV again because it's possible that I missed things because of the sheer size and amount of the posts.

finally I don't like the way Aneninen handled the way I pushed on boonskies by trying to disprove my points yet being unable to, ending up saying I don't agree with you. It just felt like a failed chainsaw attempt for boon.

Basically What I'm saying is you tried to defend against my points with out having a valid counter points in fact you actually strengthened my points in some parts and that comes off as scummy.

Ah, but he did give a reason in those in-between posts (I only skimmed and don't feel like going back to add the quote).

It doesn't look like Anen "made" Garmr switch. But I must say that if I were in Garmr's shoes at this point I might think that Anen "facilitated" the switch by becoming a better target than Boon. A contradiction in Axle's theory? Depends on what Garmr said about it later.

[Aegor]

Votecount 2.10

[5]

Thor665:

goodmorning, Izariael, reinoe, Flubbernugget, Garmr
[4]

Garmr:

Scripten, AxleGreaser, Slandaar, Shiro
[2]

Flubbernugget:

Nero Cain, The Fonz
[1]

Boonskiies:

T S O
[1]

davesaz:

TierShift
[1]

goodmorning:

Thor665
[1]

reinoe:

Boonskiies

[2]

Not Voting:

beastcharizard, davesaz

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline:

(expired on 2014-11-19 18:27:52)

Mod Notes

Searching for replacements for T S O and Garmr -- TELL YOUR FRIENDS

[Aegor]

Upon player request, the deadline is not being suspended. At the deadline, either/both of the two slots that remain(s) unfilled will simply be modkilled, as was my policy in the last cycle. There may be a deadline extension if I get replacements.

[Thor665]

Pedit - is suggesting scanning my posts for a phrase a mention of events in an ongoing game? I know that I clearly can't post a link... I will refrain from saying anything further. And TBH it could be in one of two games, one of which is finished...

So...could you provide me a link to any of those or no?

I think it had more votes and traction than any wagon except the one on you appeared to have.
I think it has good basis. That it has had so little impact makes me wonder how i should have explained it.

It has votes, but it has no traction. Currently your wagon mates are Slandaar (who is not pushing the wagon at all) Scripten (who is a lurksack) and Shiro (who, again, is not pushing it at all). That wagon is going nowhere and it's going there fast. Most other people seem to either a. not understand the case b. have a town read on Garmr or c. both. Would you like to unvote and vote Goodmorning? You also scumread her and it's pretty clear that Garmr wagon isn't getting any new votes anytime soon, so sitting on it is basically a Thor vote.

@Nero
@Fonz

Free hint - you lurksacks are sitting on a useless wagon. Why? WHat are you accomplishing down there? Why not vote me or GM?

@Tiershift - Dave wagon is dead unless he fails to produce some meta on his liar wail - how about voting GM for a time with me. Or at least moving to help a wagon doing *anything at all*.

@Boon - dear gawd, how many lursacks are in this game? Yo, sack face - pretend to be town, vote somewhere useful and stop posting prod dodges like a fail player scum face.

@Beast - are you kidding me?

@Dave - provide the link, also get your vote back in play and be a man.

[Thor665]

Upon player request, the deadline is not being suspended. At the deadline, either/both of the two slots that remain(s) unfilled will simply be modkilled. There may be a deadline extension if I get replacements.

Hey, everyone - Thor is now mod confirmed town.

Shock.

[Thor665]

This is actually hilarious.

[Shiro]

@MOD Didnt TSO say he is staying after all ?

[Aegor]

@MOD Didnt TSO say he is staying after all ?

So he did. But I missed it because he did not

bold

it as per my explicit instructions, which makes me a little bit sad.


Still looking for a Garmr replacement.

[davesaz]

@Thor: I can't quote/link (rules), but I have less than 600 posts here and only a fraction of those would meet the rules criteria for not being able to quote. To make it even easier, you can search for 'literal truth'.

[Thor665]

I was able to follow that but, as you must be aware, that doesn't help me much at this juncture and we can't discuss it further.

Did you ever do anything of the sort in a completed game?