NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #1078 (isolation #0) » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:18 pm

Post by The Fonz »

Hi guys. Will read tomorrow.
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Post Post #1119 (isolation #1) » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:07 pm

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At p20. Two things.

Csareo was scumhunting derpily. One of those last two words is alignment relevant.

My predecessor's Nero vote was decent, but I'm going to
Vote: PeregrineV
because holy shit was #385 bad.
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Post Post #1227 (isolation #2) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:43 pm

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In post 810, Egg wrote:Alright, one more short burst. Getting tired though.

Muffin's attack on Pere reads fake. Doesn't mean Pere is town if muffin is scum though. There's always the chance of tow scum groups, SK, or distancing/bussing.



I'd really like you to unpack this, because Muffin's PerV push feels like the best push I've seen in this game. It rubs me up the wrong way that you attack another player's vote on the wagon you're on in a way that explicitly calls the attacking player scum, but then bend over backwards to point out this doesn't weaken your vote on the wagon in any way.

On that note, think PerV is scummy, mostly on the basis of the muffin case, not the Thor case. Thor needs to stop arguing with scum reads, and OH MY GOD when PerV said 'Let's re-start' I thought he meant move past that argument, not bloody well let's have the same argument all over again. It is mildly suspicious that PerV pointed out the potential 'slip' in Thor then admitted he didn't think slipping is something Thor would do as soon as he's challenged on it.

Scripten's gut town. I think Izariael is town who genuinely believes a 'strong null read' is a thing (LOL). Davesaz is really glaringly posting lots of IIoA. Newbie though. Consider this a warning to be more proactive. Nero's playing a very safe game, wouldn't have a problem lynching him, but PerV is better.

In post 861, T S O wrote:that readslist is realllly surface deep, goes through just about every cliche there is and fencesits on some people

in other words, Aneninen is still scum.


Do you expect a readlist on day one of a large to have non-fencesitty opinions on everyone? I mean, LOATPs are kinda generally bad unless doing PoE. But still.

On Boon, the point is that if he's town, scum now knows he's not vanilla anyway. But there's the risk that if he's scum, he's sliding by on a non-specific power claim. I'd lean no claim, just because I think he seems like a bad enough player that not knowing whether he has a major or minor PR if he's town is a significant problem for scum. Bullets to the face of people who have hinted power are bad. *Cough*Thor*Cough*

In post 1121, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1119, The Fonz wrote:At p20. Two things.

Csareo was scumhunting derpily. One of those last two words is alignment relevant.

My predecessor's Nero vote was decent, but I'm going to
Vote: PeregrineV
because holy shit was #385 bad.


Why/how was it bad?

I see
skating over stuff (not deep thoughts for PereV)
What was the intent?
Too much is funny? (more room for fun when you know alignments?)



Primarily, calling Aneninen's voting reason 'fake' yet doing jack shit about this. Questions TSO's obviously not-serious vote. The only other part of that post that is in any way content is in saying Csareo's posts are 'refreshingly direct' when he kind of hints that he might have a problem with Thor but asks an empty question instead, the obvious answer to which is 'because he's fucking terrible.' It's a glaring filler post.

Other reasons why I'm happy with this: 385 is followed by a post taking issue with Garmr calling Csareo 'town with high chance of idiocy.' Note, not saying anything about the actual read, but objecting to the characterisation as a derp. This is while, as Muffin points out, he's voting Scrip. #501 is a list of all the players far too early to actually have a read on everyone. Combine the LOATP with the silent vote, and he's trying to look like he's posting a decent amount of content, but doing nothing to advance the game. Basically Muffin's #521 is excellent. Then he spends basically the rest of the game to date arguing with Thor but not voting him. His vote has been parked for 35 pages.

Note also PerV calling Boonskies "Probably scum" in #501 and doing
precisely jack shit
about this before and since. Explanation in #501 of Scripten suspicion also doesn't tally with it being just a sheep (it's also semantics). If the reasoning in #501 was real, why didn't he provide it when previously asked instead of going 'it was a sheep?' This is particularly bad since he attacked Thor by accusing him of doing exactly that in #571.
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Post Post #1228 (isolation #3) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:47 pm

Post by The Fonz »

I notice that I overuse the phrase 'Jack Shit' in the above post. Feel free to substitute 'fuck all' and 'literally nothing' as you will.
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Post Post #1262 (isolation #4) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:18 pm

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In post 1260, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1255, Thor665 wrote:Oh, look, none of my town reads have a wagon on them, fancy that.

Do they not have a wagon because you townread them, or do you townread them because they don't have a wagon, I wonder.


Do you really wonder? What would be the implications of either?
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Post Post #1265 (isolation #5) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:20 am

Post by The Fonz »

^
Bad post. Not least the accusing a replacement who just got caught up of not contributing.

I'm not going to take lectures from you as to what is and isn't relevant, sorry. I asked because #1260 is either irrelevant to scumhunting (if you're implying that they're not being wagoned because Thor doesn't suspect them - that doesn't say anything about Thor's alignment) or a cheap attempt to insinuate that Thor's play is deficient/scummy, without actually coming out and saying it (if you're implying he's only going for popular suspects). Your last six posts have been a combination of pointless setup/theory talk, vague 'later' posts and annoying snidey-sarcasm-y things that don't advance the game. You need to shit or get off the pot - if you think Thor is ignoring things he as town ought to pursue, tell us who and what.

Also, your 'reaction test' has been going on for five days now. If it hasn't worked by now, it won't. Spill.
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Post Post #1266 (isolation #6) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:22 am

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Oh, and it's also a false dichotomy - there's the obvious third option of 'Both Thor and others are not wagoning them because they're not scummy.'
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Post Post #1270 (isolation #7) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:29 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1267, goodmorning wrote:If you just got caught up then why not post some reads? An opinion on Thor vs Pere? An opinion on TSO vs Anen? Literally anything but a weak question about a joke post?


Erm, I did.
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Post Post #1272 (isolation #8) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:34 am

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In post 1267, goodmorning wrote:

I've run reaction tests way longer than 5 days. That said, it won't work, but that's because the player in question is gone.


Right. So now you can tell us who that player was, what parts of your play were the 'reaction test', and what reactions you expected from scum vs those you expected from town. Get to it.
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Post Post #1274 (isolation #9) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:35 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1271, goodmorning wrote:
P-EDIT: Did I miss entire swathes of relevant posting from you?


You either missed or are deliberately ignoring my post-readthrough post where I explain my Pere vote, question TSO over Anen and give a couple other reads, yes.
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Post Post #1275 (isolation #10) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:35 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1273, goodmorning wrote:Oh, just one relevant post. OK.


Again. Brand new replacement. Not sure what is difficult to grasp here.
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Post Post #1283 (isolation #11) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:08 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1278, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1272, The Fonz wrote:
In post 1267, goodmorning wrote:

I've run reaction tests way longer than 5 days. That said, it won't work, but that's because the player in question is gone.

Right. So now you can tell us who that player was, what parts of your play were the 'reaction test', and what reactions you expected from scum vs those you expected from town. Get to it.

OH, SASSY EH?

FUCK OFF.

(For anyone else who might be curious, you may want to attempt ISOing me and searching "Toby".)


GO FUCK YOURSELF.
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Post Post #1284 (isolation #12) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:08 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1282, T S O wrote:
In post 1227, The Fonz wrote:
In post 861, T S O wrote:that readslist is realllly surface deep, goes through just about every cliche there is and fencesits on some people
in other words, Aneninen is still scum.

Do you expect a readlist on day one of a large to have non-fencesitty opinions on everyone? I mean, LOATPs are kinda generally bad unless doing PoE. But still.of content, but doing nothing to advance the game.


Clearly I'm still missing it - this is all I can see, and I sure as hell don't count that as a read.

I am going to look so fucking stupid if I've missed a post or something


This is me asking you a question because I'm trying to get a read. How about you not be a dick and answer it?
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Post Post #1286 (isolation #13) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:19 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1278, goodmorning wrote:

FUCK OFF.

(For anyone else who might be curious, you may want to attempt ISOing me and searching "Toby".)


In post 206, goodmorning wrote:

In post 134, TobyLoby wrote:goodmorning, do you think Csareo is scummy, maybe townie, or null? I'm getting an everything from you.

It's pretty Null. I've seen this particular brand of play before, though I haven't played with this particular player, and it is not indicative imo. At least, not yet. Could be getting there.


In post 365, goodmorning wrote:
In post 359, TierShift wrote:
In post 346, Garmr wrote:I'm going to be honest I'm lost now and don't know what to think.
UNVOTE: toby

I don't like this post and I'll research you now.

Good, maybe you'll figure out what it is then.

Looking forward to Izariael's post.

I seem to have concluded that TSO is Town.


These are all the times 'Toby' shows up in GM's ISO, btw. So unless she's going to claim that *not* mentioning Toby at all was a reaction test, then... what?
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Post Post #1287 (isolation #14) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:20 am

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Oops - just said the same thing as Thor's spoilered stuff.
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Post Post #1289 (isolation #15) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:36 am

Post by The Fonz »

Whatevs. You're wrong.
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Post Post #1294 (isolation #16) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:32 am

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He's nervous -> but he's not in the kind of position that would cause scum to be nervous -> therefore, it's town frustration.

I mean, nervousness and frustration aren't precisely synonyms. But you can replace either with 'on edge.' You should be getting a Thor/Anen negative connection if you're reading it the way I think you are. Is that true?

My take on Anen is that his read on you is wrong but town motivated. He's modelling you as being capable of rationally capable of seeing that csareo is a VI, not worth engaging with, but doing it anyway because you're scum and you know that arguing with him will make the thread unreadable and harm town morale, which suits your end as scum. I think this is an interesting and original insight (I had a 'Hey, I never thought of it that way, but it could make sense' kind of reaction) but that he's wrong because he's underestimating the extent to which you're annoyed and can't help yourself - the 'Someone is wrong on the internet' phenomenon. Then he's starting to show similar frustration towards you later on, hence the 'nothing but pooping pigeons' post. I agree with him that you saying he couldcould vouch for you off one abandoned game's meta is silly, I don't think it's contradictory though (because it's possible to think 'My play is so different to my scumplay any competent player who's seen my scumplay should be able to tell this isn't it' while not classing Csareo as a 'competent player.')
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Post Post #1297 (isolation #17) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:08 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1295, Nero Cain wrote:

Fonz also needs to explain why 385 from PV is scummy.


^ Clear evidence Nero isn't bothering to read the thread
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Post Post #1299 (isolation #18) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:18 am

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The one where I explain in detail my problem with PerV? The one Thor broke down on this very page?
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Post Post #1302 (isolation #19) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:46 am

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1. Didn't look in any, way shape or form like a joke to me.
2. I got an incredibly strong scumvibe off that post. Like, it leapt off the page at me. Are you telling me that when you look at it, it doesn't scream scum to you?
3. Would you like to explain how it's a scum hop (presumably, onto a wagon) when I hadn't even got to the point where the wagon built at that stage? I mean, the existence of the wagon is fine, because he's scum. But still.
4. It was obviously empty. What the hell could you expect Thor to say in response that would be in any way enlightening?
5. You're ignoring the 'it's full of filler' point.
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Post Post #1306 (isolation #20) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:19 am

Post by The Fonz »

Looks like my predecessor was bang on the money... you can swing next.
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Post Post #1312 (isolation #21) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:35 am

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In post 1304, Nero Cain wrote:1. It was an RVS vote and therefore "fake" Also he was calling Boon scum and NOT Anen.


Erm, this is untrue. What PV appears to be saying is that Anen had motive other than his declared 'lolRVS' reasoning. If I'm wrong and he's just derping around, then that still points to a lack of scumhunting intent. Because why bother? Unless he's s, and this feels like a stretch, he's saying that a fake Boon vote is bad, because it should have been a REAL Boon vote? That would be alright.

2. Nope.


I find this hard to believe.

3. Saying you hadn't seen it yet =//= having seen it yet. Scum lie. But like there was still plenty of PV talk up to p20 and there was no way to miss that.+ on p23 there was a vc that showed PV as tied for the leading wagon with 4 votes, however none of those 4 votes came between pages 20-23 so you are lying that you didn't see that.


No, I'm obviously not lying. I mean it's fairly clear from the timeline of my posting that I was in the process of catching up. Some talk =/= obvious leading wagon. You're trying to paint me as piling on a PV lynch. BS.

4. Not sure but asking PV to explain why he thought Scripten was scummy seems like a p legit q to me.


Sorry, WHAT? Who are you saying was asking PV to explain anything? We're talking about a PV post. Do you mean asking Thor? The problem here is it's really really obvious what the 'problem' with Csareo is, and PV can't have not seen it.

5. I disagree that its filler.


*Shrug* You're wrong. It was outstanding in its lack of town motive.
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Post Post #1313 (isolation #22) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:42 am

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In post 1308, Nero Cain wrote:Hey Fonz, wanna explain to me how PV had a 4 man wagon on him but you claimed to not have seen this?


Because I don't count votes in my head as I re-read, I look for scummy things. Obviously I wasn't entirely unaware some people had expressed some suspicion. But the Thor/Peregrine hatefest begins pretty much precisely from the point at which I paused my re-read.
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Post Post #1324 (isolation #23) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:37 am

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How would you have expected town-Toby to react, had she not been in the process of flaking out of the game? How do you think scum-Toby would have been different?
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Post Post #1333 (isolation #24) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:00 pm

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1329, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1324, The Fonz wrote:How would you have expected town-Toby to react, had she not been in the process of flaking out of the game? How do you think scum-Toby would have been different?

People tend to be most concerned about themselves, so I would have expected her to notice on a similar timescale regardless of alignment.
However, I think that Town-Toby would have been curious, possibly tried to draw me out with questioning, maybe wondering (as dave) whether I was Scum looking for an excuse not to talk about a specific player.
Scum-Toby might have insinuated the latter, but would have been most likely to fall on more extreme ends of the scale: either paranoia about my "reaction test" or a lack of concern given her lack of inclusion on my list of concern.

There was, of course, the added bonus that an unspecified reaction test can make newbier scum paranoid. Or anyone, really.
On that note, your curiosity about it was interesting. Thor's was even more interesting.


What reaction tests have you tried in the recent past, and how did those play out?
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Post Post #1377 (isolation #25) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:21 am

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In post 1329, goodmorning wrote:

There was, of course, the added bonus that an unspecified reaction test can make newbier scum paranoid. Or anyone, really.
On that note, your curiosity about it was interesting. Thor's was even more interesting.


Hang, on. Unpack this. "On that note" implies that my curiosity, and Thor's, is in some way
related
to the fact that reaction tests make newbie scum nervous.

In post 1355, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1312, The Fonz wrote:f I'm wrong and he's just derping around, then that still points to a lack of scumhunting intent.

exactly how long have you been on this site? You know well enough that people joke around and that not everything is serious. You could prob find any game and comb through it and find posts that "lack scumhunting intent". Its a really weak accusation.


Well, of course you can find posts that lack scumhunting intent. Because every game has scum. Lack of scumhunting intent is the single best day one scumtell. Lurkers lurk, VIs post things that don't make sense, CAPSRAGE players CAPSRAGE. The single best indicator of town before you start having flips and wagon analysis and night actions to work with is "Who appears to be really trying to find scum?" There's also a different between derping about in RVS, and derping about 300+ posts in.

he's saying that a fake Boon vote is bad, because it should have been a REAL Boon vote? That would be alright.

That's exactly what I think he was saying.


PerV
, is this true? If so it changes my view of the post a bit.

I find this hard to believe.

I don't think I'm the only player in this thread that finds #385 to not be scummy. Can you remind me of your company that finds #385 scummy?


Nope, because Appeal to Majority is a fallacy for a reason. I find it hard to believe you see it otherwise because it stuck out like a sore thumb to me, not because of what anyone else said.

No, I'm obviously not lying. I mean it's fairly clear from the timeline of my posting that I was in the process of catching up. Some talk =/= obvious leading wagon. You're trying to paint me as piling on a PV lynch. BS.

This is like the second or third time you've said something about catching up. I don't think being a replacement entitles you to leeway. I still think that Pv being voted and talked about shows that he was a wagon (or atleast potentially 1) I think your "catchup" defending tobys vote and a vote on PV is fairly suspicious. I guess I can't "prove" anything but it doesn't look protown to me in the slightest.


Defending Toby's vote? Nope. I say like one sentence, that I like it. The point there is not to talk about Toby, it's to talk about the fact I find you suspicious, for pretty much the same reasons. Endorsing the attack on you, rather than defend it from some theoretical heat she hadn't received for it. I don't get what you're saying by "At least potentially one." I'd have expected him to be 'potentially' one because he was scummy. My reaction was because you seemed to imply that I knew the full game state and was deliberately piling onto the leading wagon, as opposed to voting for PV because he was outstandingly scummy.

Why did you vote without being caught up and/or reading the last vc?


To make clear that I found PV scummy enough off #385 that it absolutely couldn't wait. Large game, so fairly unlikely anyone was particularly close to lynch.


but you saying "pv knew why Thor was voting Cas=//=PV knew why Thor was voting Cas"
show me proof that PV knew why Thor was voting Cas.


That's obviously an impossible task, and you know it - I'm not inside Thor's head, so can't 'prove' anything. The point being that PerV was asking Thor to explain what the problem with csareo was. Anyone with eyes could see that Csareo was a mammoth VI, taking everything super-literally, and kicking up a massive cloud of dust. Therefore, it looked like PV was playing dumb.

In post 1313, The Fonz wrote:Because I don't count votes in my head as I
re
-read, I look for scummy things. Obviously I wasn't entirely unaware some people had expressed some suspicion. But the Thor/Peregrine hatefest begins pretty much precisely from the point at which I paused my
re
-read.

Why are you calling it a re-read here?


I mistyped. Meh. Please don't nitpick.

@Flubber: The point is that PV tried to push an outstandingly reachy 'slip' suggestion, based on Thor's belief that it's safe to assume multiball. It's just obviously much, much more likely that Thor sincerely held the belief he expressed, that most games over 21 players have multiple scum factions. What matters here is that PV openly admits that Thor isn't the kind of player likely to scumslip! Then he acts as if him showing that Thor was
mistaken
about the prevalence of multiscum in larges is the same as Thor having insider knowledge.

@TSO: Please comment on what I said about Anen.
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Post Post #1379 (isolation #26) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:44 am

Post by The Fonz »

Well, let's be clear - which things PV has done do you think are legitimately scumtells that Thor ought to be talking about?
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Post Post #1381 (isolation #27) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:07 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1380, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1366, PeregrineV wrote:I could continue to argue with you, but I've seen this before. Plus, you've managed to evolve your case/vote from 376 to 477 to whatever this is supposed to be. But, like the Scripten vote, overreaction to speculation is just not a town thing.

At least now you understand my case enough to vote me over it, I suppose this is progress.
.


I feel the opposite. If PV thought you were scummy enough to vote, he should have done that a long time ago.
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Post Post #1386 (isolation #28) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:56 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1382, Thor665 wrote:To be honest, you should probably read the comment from me you quoted with a fair bit of sarcasm to it.


Fair enough. Delayed OMGUS is a scumtell, though.
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Post Post #1387 (isolation #29) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:00 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1383, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1333, The Fonz wrote:What reaction tests have you tried in the recent past, and how did those play out?

I don't often reaction test, and I don't remember having done any recently.
I don't particularly want to sift through my old games for hours to find any.


That's fine. Oddly, the willingness to admit you're playing contrary to meta reads town.
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Post Post #1389 (isolation #30) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:28 am

Post by The Fonz »

That's probably a semantic distinction. What I consider to be scummy is to vote for a player who has consistently been attacking you, based on the way they're attacking you, but after it's been going on for a while.

The reason for this is people who genuinely think they're being attacked with bullshit tend to countervote pretty quickly, while scum will sometimes wait to see if the pressure will go away by itself, or if a less OMGUS-sounding reason to justify it will come along, or if anyone else will attack the attacker to give them cover. In this case, all three seem to apply: You're clearly not ever going to unvote him, Flubber has come in and started pressuring you, and he's come up with a brand new reason to justify the vote (brilliantly, that you have new reasons to justify yours).
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Post Post #1451 (isolation #31) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:01 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1449, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 1381, The Fonz wrote:
In post 1380, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1366, PeregrineV wrote:I could continue to argue with you, but I've seen this before. Plus, you've managed to evolve your case/vote from 376 to 477 to whatever this is supposed to be. But, like the Scripten vote, overreaction to speculation is just not a town thing.

At least now you understand my case enough to vote me over it, I suppose this is progress.
.


I feel the opposite. If PV thought you were scummy enough to vote, he should have done that a long time ago.


I actually answered this many times. If 2 scumteams, then Thor is scum.

But, his amazing inability to understand the words that are coming out of my mouth (fingers) is just too convenient for Thor to be town.


Sorry about the quote cascade - phone post.

That's not an answer to that accusation at all. Thor's behaviour hasn't changed over the last fifteen or so pages. If it's scummy now, it was scummy on page 25 or whatever.

Also, why have you never once in this argument considered what to me was the obvious reading of Thor's post - that he was
sincerely mistaken
about how common multiball is?
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Post Post #1460 (isolation #32) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:23 am

Post by The Fonz »

PV: NO! You still haven't answered the question of why you assumed insider knowledge rather than error.

"Most games this big have multiscum. So it's safe to assume it, therefore we can't rule out two players both being scum even if their interactions appear unlikely from teammates."

Give me literally ANY possible Thor thought process that makes even close to as much sense as the above and is compatible with your allegations.
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Post Post #1579 (isolation #33) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:35 am

Post by The Fonz »

Grrr. PV is right about one thing - It's time to stop engaging with him. That last post addressed to me manages the impressive feat of pushing all my buttons, and completely dodging the concerns I have by denying he did something that the thread plainly shows him doing.
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Post Post #1620 (isolation #34) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:41 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1582, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1460, The Fonz wrote:PV: NO! You still haven't answered the question of why you assumed insider knowledge rather than error.

"Most games this big have multiscum. So it's safe to assume it, therefore we can't rule out two players both being scum even if their interactions appear unlikely from teammates."

Give me literally ANY possible Thor thought process that makes even close to as much sense as the above and is compatible with your allegations.


I have feeling that knife cuts both ways.
Thor didn't seriously entertain the idea that PereV, might just believe that multiball was not likely and hence assuming it was a TMI thing. At least enough to have towny poke to see what happens.


I don't think it does. I agree that it is initially possible PV-town, based on a belief that '21 players' was in no way a reason to believe multiball likely, then thought 'Well what else could make him assume that? Insider knowledge!' That's derpy, but possible. Thor's case, although he was already voting PV for other reasons, is that Nero was the first person to make an assumption about multiball, and PV was being inconsistent. Note also that the conditionality in PV's post is inconsistent: He doesn't suspect Thor if it's not multiball. This means
he's accepting the possibility of Thor being town making a bad assumption,
in the non-multiball case. Since town wouldn't have insider knowledge either way, his logic requires him to accept the possibility of Thor being a townie making a bad assumption even if it IS multiball. So it requires a combo of illogic and ignoring things to fit the case you want to make. I don't see a similar flaw in Thor's case. PV's double standard is a double standard regardless of multiball status. Note also that Thor describes the Thor suspicion as 'a smokescreen for doing nothing.'

I don't think Thor's the type to back off when he thinks he has scum in his sights. This means I think the counterwagon on him is bad. If PV's town, high likelihood Flubber is scum trying to get townie points for opposing a mislynch, and use it to subsequently persecute people on the wagon. That seems to me a fairly common scum replacement strat. Not sure I see that from a PV buddy though - for the same reasons, "Replace in and hardcore chainsaw your buddy's attacker" is a pretty rare and bold scum move.

I don't like the Anen wagon either.
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Post Post #1625 (isolation #35) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:01 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1622, Scripten wrote:
In post 1620, The Fonz wrote:
I don't think Flubbernugget is scum. At least, I'm not getting scum vibes from him. He's working pretty hard on Thor, and not doing a fantastic job of it, true. But his viewpoint feels organic to me, mostly in terms of tone and the way he is pushing and retracting his points. I mean, compare and contrast his play with PereV's, and you can probably see where I'm coming from with my vote.


Expand on 'retracting.' I may be overly suspicious of his entry because it's the kind of thing I think I would do as scum here.

Someone also suggested PV was playing exactly as he did in a recent town game together, but I've subsequently moved on from the page it was on and trawling through this game is kind of headache-inducing for me at the moment. So can whoever it was please also expand on what exact behaviours they are talking about?
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Post Post #1701 (isolation #36) » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:59 am

Post by The Fonz »

V/LA until Monday. Might be able to get a couple of short posts off on my phone.
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Post Post #2038 (isolation #37) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:46 am

Post by The Fonz »

@Scripten: I asked you to expand on why you think the way in which Flubbernugget retracted his reads, specifically, was townish. Please do so.

I just went back to try to find who it was that said they had meta evidence that makes them think PV-town. I couldn't find it - this game is dense, yo. Can whoever it was please volunteer that it was them, and tell me the basis for this read? This is reasonably important.

In post 1689, davesaz wrote:I've been troubled by TSO returning to the same set of 3 posts, especially after he had appeared ready to drop it in
I found it interesting that Flubbernugget and Muffin are both asking questions about Axle's methods at the same time. Could just be a coincidence that this is the current topic. But I'm worried that they seem intent on throwing chum after being explicitly told that there is bait in the water.


Shit or get off the pot.

Nero is noising at me. I might get to it later. (I might not, because I think he's very unlikely to change his mind and no-one really agrees with him, so pretty much everything else is prioritised over responding). I'll take a look at Slandaar and the stuff he raises in my next post.
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Post Post #2119 (isolation #38) » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:52 pm

Post by The Fonz »

OK, so Slandaar. Aeronaut's ISO seems to involve a bit of chiding people for poor play without ever saying who's scum, so the slot's a very light scum lean prior to Slandaar's entry.

Slandaar tends to continue this trend. 1773 is chiding TSO for his play. 1775 and 1785 involve questioning Axle over an 'unproductive' question. Now to be fair, he's making clear he's not caught up. However, imho when catching up, town would be more likely to focus specifically on things that are scummy, or just hold off commenting until the end of the read. Making relatively throwaway comments while reading seems like posting for the sake of it.

1787: And what is the implication of something being pure meta?

1789 isn't entirely fair to goodmorning. What GM's saying, I think, is that a push on a claimed PR is unlikely to work and likely to make you look scummy.

#1819: I see no reason for town to make this post. Boonskiies was claiming non-specific PR. EVEN IF as town, you thought some nuance of it made clear he was cop, what would be the benefit?

#1854 again emphasising the 'not caught up.' And yet you're responding to stuff about relatively ephemeral issues rather than doing said catchup?

Then again...

Once caught up, I'm reasonably happy with the GM push. The difference between 'play toward Csareo' and 'play towards anyone else' does at least seem like a thought town would have. GM's response of accusing him of tunnelling is bad - coming in and pushing a case hard =/= tunnelling.

@Slandaar: could you supply me with some meta examples of you replacing into games?

I would kinda like to know why scum would come up with the super-derpy 'not talking to someone' reaction test, though, then openly admit it wasn't in keeping with her meta. That seems convoluted and unlikely to benefit any scum end.
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Post Post #2184 (isolation #39) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:29 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 2123, Slandaar wrote:
In post 2119, The Fonz wrote:#1819: I see no reason for town to make this post. Boonskiies was claiming non-specific PR. EVEN IF as town, you thought some nuance of it made clear he was cop, what would be the benefit?

I was explaining to Boon that as the cop you shouldn't be so obvious to ensure that other power roles, who are unsure of whether Boon was playing his role well and thought they may do similar, would know not to play like Boon.

:]

Fonzie do you actually think I would post that without an actual reason even as scum? (Hint: that wasn't the real reason)

Some of the other stuff you wrote is also equally terrible.


There seems no obvious reason to do it as scum. But it's actively harmful as town. Risk/reward is different. It seems to me unlikely that anyone was likely to play like Boon anyway. People don't tend to try to imitate VIs.

In post 2124, Slandaar wrote:I wasn't going to reply to this but eh...
In post 2119, The Fonz wrote:1789 isn't entirely fair to goodmorning. What GM's saying, I think, is that a push on a claimed PR is unlikely to work and likely to make you look scummy.

What is the difference between scum trying to lynch a claimed PR and trying to lynch another unclaimed townie?

Neither is more or less scummy. The difference between them is the reasoning for trying to lynch - this is what defines if the person is scummy or not. Therefore if scum think they can lynch a claimed PR with the reasoning they have, then why wouldn't they?


The fuck? The difference between scum trying to lynch a claimed PR and an unclaimed nonaligned is that

A) Town is very unlikely to lynch the claimed PR, regardless of your reasoning
B) You are likely to draw some fire for attacking the claimed PR

Therefore scum, who tend to be risk-averse and can just kill the PR overnight anyway, have no reason to push the claimed PR that town doesn't have, and has reason not to that town lacks.

In post 2127, goodmorning wrote:
In post 2119, The Fonz wrote:coming in and pushing a case hard =/= tunnelling.

No, but coming in and pushing a case hard whilst not doing anything else is.


No. What else are you supposed to do other than find scum and push them?

In post 2134, davesaz wrote:I'm quite surprised that nobody scumread me after I "caught" Egg having "scum knowledge".

This brings up two inconsistencies. Some players are seen as scummy if they point out other players who seem to have inside information, but other players who make the same observation are not scummy. And there seems to be a double standard on the posting of apparent inside information as well.

UNVOTE:


Possible double standard. More likely, game density by this point is causing people's eyes to glaze over and just miss it. I know I keep trying to read the TSO/Anen/Axle back and forth, but just get a headache very quickly and stop being able to follow it. I think it's pretty likely your posts are simplygetting missed.


In post 2141, Egg wrote:

The Fonz wrote:I would kinda like to know why scum would come up with the super-derpy 'not talking to someone' reaction test, though, then openly admit it wasn't in keeping with her meta. That seems convoluted and unlikely to benefit any scum end.


Seems like keeping busy, scum hunting, and doing stuff, but isn't. And if I did something outside of my town meta as either alignment, I'd sure as fuck admit it. People research that shit.


Causation runs the other way: Scum tend to try to behave in ways they can justify as 'How I play as town,' and if called out on apparent meta-inconsistencies, try to claim the play wasn't inconsistent in the first place, imho. Town seem less likely to care about being meta-inconsistent if they think something could be useful.
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Post Post #2185 (isolation #40) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:38 am

Post by The Fonz »

Oh, also, 'Literally doing nothing' doesn't seem to constitute 'seems like being busy, but not' to me.
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Post Post #2242 (isolation #41) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:21 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 2187, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 2184, The Fonz wrote:I know I keep trying to read the TSO/Anen/Axle back and forth, but just get a headache very quickly and stop being able to follow it.


perhaps as its(Aneninen) now one of the three leading wagons, its important enough? (recently tied for first)


I never said it was unimportant. I said I was having huge difficulty getting any kind of read, but was getting headaches, from all the noising. It would obviously be better if I could get a clear read, but I'm human and have limited time/patience.

In post 2188, Slandaar wrote:Looked at my meta yet Fonzie Fonzie?

:]


Obviously not, as you haven't supplied it like I asked.

In post 2191, Slandaar wrote:Fonz serious question.

If scum claims a PR on D1 can
you
lynch them based on what you are saying?

Let's say they claim Miller what then? when do you lynch them? It can be anything else other than cop really (cop is only role which you can just see if they die N1) Choose a Back-up role etc even a Doctor claim is quite unverifiable especially if scum have an RB.


I'm in the 'Don't lynch claimed PRs D1, unless there's a CC or hilariously bad fakeclaim' camp. These things work themselves out. See Simpsons Mafia as an example of why that's the case. The miller thing is basically a theory distraction, but essentially: I used to believe in lynching all claimed millers, but so many people believed millers should claim day one, and scum didn't fake miller as much as they should, so I stopped doing that. I specifically believe
this specific claim
to look more like the premature derp of a poor player than any kind of gambit.
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Post Post #2249 (isolation #42) » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:53 am

Post by The Fonz »

A quick ISO search finds 'Anen' coming up 26 times, including several responses to quoted Anen posts. On this matter of fact, Muffin is right.
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Post Post #2289 (isolation #43) » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:16 am

Post by The Fonz »

Right. I have 4-5 hours during which I will be able to devote quite a lot of attention to this game (I have at this point not read anything subsequent to my last post). Then I will have no access until Monday evening at the earliest. My current plan is to take another swing at understanding TSO/Anen/Axle. If anyone wants to suggest an alternative angle of investigation that would be as/more productive, please feel free.
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Post Post #2333 (isolation #44) » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:17 am

Post by The Fonz »

Holy walls.

I just spent at least an hour and a half, maybe more, trying to triple-iso Anen, TSO and Axle. I am now very confident Anen-TSO is a town fight that spiralled from Anen initially interpreting a couple of TSO posts in a really weird way, then TSO dismissing a decent point of Anen's as terrible... TSO makes a couple of factually false representations of Anen's play... Basically it feels like their antipathy has snowballed into this perpetual motion of mutual loathing and incomprehension. I'm not voting for either any time soon.
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Post Post #2336 (isolation #45) » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:34 am

Post by The Fonz »

Yes. I've logged off my PC now - might explain exactly where tomorrow.
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Post Post #2337 (isolation #46) » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:35 am

Post by The Fonz »

As in, I have like am hour on the train before going full on no access.
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Post Post #2394 (isolation #47) » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:24 pm

Post by The Fonz »

@TSO: 677 is false (though phrased as a question, there's a clear accusation there). Claiming that he didn't respond to your #420 is false (oh, and you mean rebut, not refute). Claiming his vote on you was reasonless as opposed to poorly-reasoned is false.

Essentially, he, for whatever reason, interprets your 'I don't agree with anything' as 'I'll never agree with anything,' you point out this makes no sense, but then seemingly due to this, you dismiss out of hand his subsequent better point, that it seems contradictory to dismiss csareo's 'meta' of you because of small sample size, but then to expect other people to know
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Post Post #2395 (isolation #48) » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:29 pm

Post by The Fonz »

... your meta off of one game. Feels like he's understandably aggrieved by this.

I'd also like to know why you bothered to quote his RVS vote if it's neither to call him scummy nor bad.
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Post Post #2787 (isolation #49) » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:37 am

Post by The Fonz »

Today -

Boon looked to me at first like he was genuinely playing as a derpy town PR - the suggestion that he's done the same thing as scum piques my interest though - will read the supplied link when I have time.

Likewise, thought Garmr's rushing into a 1v1 looked town... But self consciously suggesting that scum wouldn't do that makes it look like it could be posturing. Question of why Axle dropped TSO suspicion a good one.

Thor's still town. Nero noticeably better today. Slandaar still creeps me out.

Full post in a day or two - just snatched 10m on lunch break to drop in a few thoughts.
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Post Post #3102 (isolation #50) » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:53 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 2791, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 2787, The Fonz wrote:Today -

Boon looked to me at first like he was genuinely playing as a derpy town PR - the suggestion that he's done the same thing as scum piques my interest though - will read the supplied link when I have time.



I'll try to spare you 200 pages of shitfest by saying if anything pops into your head today that remotely looks like a cc then Boons needs to eat rope. That might be harder to do in a large than a mini though, so take it for what it's worth.


Oh, to be clear - we should absolutely force Boon to fullclaim tomorrow. A CC is quite hard to get based on a nonspecified power claim. [Edit: Noted subsequent fullclaim].

In post 2811, Thor665 wrote:@Fonz - what is your read on GM and Dave?



GM's annoying but town. Play makes perfect sense from the perspective of a somewhat poor town player who is trying and has a slightly inflated view of her own abilities.

Dave... I meant to mention him as a suspect in my last post, actually. Then he goes and does exactly what I was suspecting him for
not
doing, which is bring an original insight which results in a strong read - the 'Axle contradiction' stuff.

In post 2826, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 2787, The Fonz wrote:
Question of why Axle dropped TSO suspicion
a good one.


actually here is good question.

@Fonz

For
that
to be good question, there would have to be actual examples of TSO doing scummy shit that I should have commented on but didn't...

Do you have any... like even one.

and if you do? then you didn't post about them because... ?

Hey Fonz. You dont seem like the kind of player that just flings shit.
That (unless you saw TSO do new scummy stuff I could have commented on and didnt and you also chose not to...) feels like shit flinging.

How come?
Show me its a good question.


This feels like a really scummy response. People who feel they have a strong scum case don't need to re-state it, but what they do need to do is continue to pursue it in some manner: actually vote that suspect, ask other people to consider voting them, say things like 'Guys this is all well and good, but TSO is still scum." I think it's fair to say that dropping the read feels unnatural, and accusing the scumhunter who points that out of 'flinging shit' is itself just flinging shit.

In post 2855, goodmorning wrote:

People who townread Thor: please, please explain why.




Has strong reads, single-minded focus on them, high level of effort (yes, it is the single best town-tell) exasperation at derping about.

I'm only at p117. Sorry, but life has been kicking my ass. I am currently most suspicious of Axle, and Flubbernugget (this is largely gut - I feel there's a fair bit of empty/'helpful' posting, the triple voter thing - his kvetching feels 'look town' rather than 'help town' criticising Axle ('contradictory straw grasp') then turning around and voting the super-easy Boon wagon.

Actually, fuck it.
Vote: Flubber
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Post Post #3371 (isolation #51) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:45 pm

Post by The Fonz »

I have tomorrow off. I will either get caught up or replace out, because I'm not meeting my own standards for pulling my weight as part of the town this game day.
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Post Post #3494 (isolation #52) » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:08 am

Post by The Fonz »

Right, I've decided to catch up thematically, rather than chronologically. Firstly -

To Axle re 3190: I obviously do not believe players should continue pushing lone wagons forever when they're getting no traction. But there's two things here: One, I don't believe TSO should have appeared unviable to you early D2. He'd gotten as much heat as anyone else D1 apart from the guy who swung, and the guy he was pursuing relentlessly flipped town. No-one else's wagons on Day One (bar the successful Pere-wagon) got anywhere either. Two, you neither said you changed your mind, nor made clear'I'd prefer TSO, but don't think he's a viable wagon so am willing to pursue a second-best wagon of [Name].' (Until now). You just ignored him. This feels off given he had been your top suspect.
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Post Post #3496 (isolation #53) » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:11 am

Post by The Fonz »

GM response:


In post 3104, goodmorning wrote:

In post 3102, The Fonz wrote:GM's annoying but town. Play makes perfect sense from the perspective of a somewhat poor town player who is trying and has a slightly inflated view of her own abilities.

eyyyyy what's your excuse then?


My play makes sense from the perspective of a good town player, obviously.

1. No, he doesn't. I went through and pointed out that none of his reads (other than Pere) is any more justified than "I liked his gut reads on 4 people."


"I don't like his read" =/= He doesn't have reads. And you can't just go 'Except for that one really strong read, which he pursued with tenacity.' Today we know who his top suspect is, too.

2. Yeahhhhh I don't know what universe you play Mafia in but I find tunneling to be mildly scummy. As Scum, it's a lot easier to push one person and not comment on the rest so that you can "change your mind" whenever it's convenient. I mean, Town tunnel too, and I've certainly done it, but it's not something that makes Scum's lives harder.


Yeeeaaaah I don't know what universe you play mafia in, but town who think they have found scum should push that case strongly until such time as the player doesn't look scummy any more or someone else looks scummier. Thor's top suspect was the leading wagon for most of yesterday. He has no reason to waste time talking about other wagons, except in so far as how they were inferior to the PerVwagon. It would in fact have been antitown to do so.

3. Effort is most certainly not indicative of alignment. Thor posts ridiculous numbers of posts no matter what.


Effort is most certainly indicative of alignment, that's just obviously true. Also, by 'effort' I don't mean number of posts (Which is somewhat related to alignment, but only relatively, and often confounded). I'm not saying 'He's town because he's posting a lot.' I'm saying he's town because he appears emotionally invested in what he's saying, and playing proactively.

4. It's really easy to say "come on guys, deadline is coming, let's consolidate" especially when them not consolidating means you lose a mislynch.

So I still don't understand it.


Not sure what this is relevant to. People are blaming Thor because no-one else pushed a wagon with anything like the effectiveness he did.
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Post Post #3497 (isolation #54) » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:14 am

Post by The Fonz »

On Boonskies:


I think he's probably town. The whole 'softclaim power and try to get shot' thing makes sense for a town BP. My problem here is that if we think he's town, we're basically gambling the game on that here and now, because scum is never going to spend two nightkills to try to get rid of a VI with no night action. And it's an absolutely perfect SK gambit (For this reason, I hate Tier attacking Garmr over this - SK is both a reasonably obvious thing for town to consider from a VI player making that specific claim, and not a thing scum would have insider knowledge of). I really don't like the look of the wagon though. GRRRRR.


In post 3104, goodmorning wrote:
Some of his actions don't seem to make sense coming from a BP. Like the whole thing where he was trying to lynch Izariael and said something about Iz fishing for towncred by not killing Boon which I don't remember clearly because it hurt my brain.


That doesn't make sense, but it doesn't make specifically little sense for a BP to say, because Iz didn't know which power role Boon was hinting.
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Post Post #3501 (isolation #55) » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:45 am

Post by The Fonz »

OK. I'm UTD.

Thorwagon still bad. Goodmorning has not 'decimated' my reasoning - LOL - just posted wrong and inadequate game theory responses. Flubber's still number one. He has to be, because he's done nothing of value since I voted him.

I still have my problems with Axle, but digging out that Garmr contradiction looks like it could be scumhunting. Tier is hovering somewhere near the list - 3112-4 betrays a lack of town motive. I disliked Iz's LOATP, but the rest of that ISO is decent, although kinda safe. Thor - can you explain the Izaraiel vote? I'm kind of feeling based on PoE that either Shiro or Iz is likely to be scum in that hood.
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Post Post #3502 (isolation #56) » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:50 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 3499, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 3497, The Fonz wrote:and not a thing scum would have insider knowledge of).


There is one way scum!Garmr would

In post 3053, Garmr wrote:I feel like his a sk because he feels the need to announce the fact his two shot bullet proof to discourage who ever is shooting from shooting him again.


If there were 3 shots last night and scum shot Boon, then shooting him again makes sense and is a slip.

Either that or its fsck up like Thor and the Shiro vote change saga, ooops no it didn't.

What is not obvious is reason to have assumed hed been shot once already as per the above.
In post 3497, The Fonz wrote:, I hate Tier attacking Garmr over this - SK is both a reasonably obvious thing for town to consider from a VI player making that specific claim


That's a lot of weight to put on the word 'again.' I don't personally like 'Slip' arguments. I find they're from scum more often than on scum. It seems to me more likely Garmr was assuming that Boon would be told if he were shot once, not that garmr is scum who wants to wave a big 'I'm scum' flag.
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Post Post #3709 (isolation #57) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:03 am

Post by The Fonz »

That is just unreadably long.
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Post Post #3711 (isolation #58) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:09 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 3535, Thor665 wrote:

He's basically saying 'Thor is playing the game' in a narrowed focus way and then acting like it's a scum case.


This! So this.

Similarly, when GM claims Thor isn't scumhunting because tunnel, I wonder if she knows what scumhunting is. There is no value in 'commenting on other players' if you're confident you have scum in your dights.
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Post Post #3712 (isolation #59) » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:12 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 3544, Flubbernugget wrote:The real question is why the fonz is defending all of Thor's derp.


OH HAI disguised OMGUS.

It's because the case on Thor looks exactly like cases on me when I'm town.
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Post Post #3850 (isolation #60) » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:57 am

Post by The Fonz »

Iz/Slandaar is making me feel better about both of them.

In post 3738, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3707, TierShift wrote:iza is town. he is. thor, look elsewhere.

Is this read for the wall/effort=town or anything else?
Because earlier he did a cop out on the case and now he's champion of the case, and I can't read the shift as easily as you apparently do.


Thor, can you explain this? I don't need a wall, and Iz has been giving me some gut scumvibes, but when I look in detail I can't pin down anything specific.

In post 3735, Shiro wrote:Again more than one person can see the reason for the switch. The reason was there you just dont find it reasonable.

So again you either think the reason was BS thus the vote was weak with no reason and scummy
Or
The vote was made in a way to pass responsibility thus scummy. That in itself is a reason

Both cant mutualy exist



This isn't any kind of contradiction unless you're interpreting 'reason' incredibly narrowly. The claim is that you made a move with no apparent protown reason for it, therefore he's inferring you had a scum reason that you didn't admit to for obvious reasons.

In post 3740, Flubbernugget wrote:Maybe Fonz is buddying Thor because he borrowed Thor's goalposts.


DIESCUMDIE

I mean, seriously. I can spot an attempt to scapegoat when I see one.

Also, this line of reasoning would IMPLY THOR IS TOWN, wouldn't it? So why are you still voting Thor?

Oh, right.

People, vote Flubber.

In post 3739, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 3712, The Fonz wrote:
In post 3544, Flubbernugget wrote:The real question is why the fonz is defending all of Thor's derp.


OH HAI disguised OMGUS.

It's because the case on Thor looks exactly like cases on me when I'm town.


I didn't realize I was voting for you.


The post is an OMGUS attack. Attacking someone in an OMGUS way doesn't necessarily require a vote. Surely, surely, you're not this stupid.

In post 3772, goodmorning wrote:

In post 3711, The Fonz wrote:Similarly, when GM claims Thor isn't scumhunting because tunnel, I wonder if she knows what scumhunting is. There is no value in 'commenting on other players' if you're confident you have scum in your dights.

Possibly, just possibly, YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY PLAYER IN THE GAME. OTHER PEOPLE NEED TO READ YOU. WHEN YOU CAN POST LITTLE ENOUGH ON 99% OF PLAYERS, YOU CAN HAVE WHATEVER OPINION IS CONVENIENT. THERE IS NOT ONLY ONE SCUM IN A GAME THIS SIZE.


Yeah, this is bullshit. YOUR PRIORITY AS TOWN IS TO GET YOUR STRONGEST SCUMREAD LYNCHED. JESUS. "Posting so people can get a read on you" = Posting to look town, rather than to forward protown goals.

Thor, will you consider wagoning Flubber?
There's very little to like there. Goodmorning just sucks. She's unlikely to be scum.
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Post Post #3972 (isolation #61) » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:59 am

Post by The Fonz »

Phone posting so will be going reply by reply.

In post 3738, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3707, TierShift wrote:iza is town. he is. thor, look elsewhere.

Is this read for the wall/effort=town or anything else?
Because earlier he did a cop out on the case and now he's champion of the case, and I can't read the shift as easily as you apparently do.


Thor, can you explain this? I don't need a wall, and Iz has been giving me some gut scumvibes, but when I look in detail I can't pin down anything specific.

I'm not sure what there is to explain - I'm asking Tier a question there and describing two things that Iz did and asking for Tier's conclusions.


I want you to expand 'did a cop out' and how you think his attitude appears to have changed, and what you think that implies.


Eh, if you can get that wagon bigger I'll move. But honestly I'm not feeling it. I'd probably rather lynch a lirksack like you or TSO than Flubber, frankly.


Please don't call me a fucking lurksack. For one, I've provided more actual content than Flub. But mostly, when you're absurdly pressed for time and spending half your waking, non-working hours on a game, it's annoying as fuck. I'm obviously giving my fucking everything to scumhunting here, and other people having more free time does not make me a goddamn lurksack.
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Post Post #3973 (isolation #62) » Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:08 am

Post by The Fonz »

Flub wrote:

Sooo yeah you're either shifting the goalposts or you've gotten used to what it smells like to have your head up your ass.


I have no idea what 'goalposts' you mean. In any case, others should note what Flub has no response to the substantive accusation - If I'm supposedly buddying - bullshit - that implies I'm trying to get town Thor onside as scum, but he's voting Thor. Smells like trying to set up his next scapegoat after Thor flips town to me.
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Post Post #3974 (isolation #63) » Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:13 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 3904, beastcharizard wrote:It doesn't resemble scum anything. It is at worst anti-town.

Also, how the hell am I supposed to control if I happen to check the thread after someone votes me? That was a coincidence.

Earlier I was going to make a bigger post but then realized I had homework to do.

Next you are going to say I am scummy for going to sleep soon because: "He was avoiding a conversation with me by sleeping."


It's reasonable to not have enough time. What is not reasonable is to make multiple posts arguing about being attacked because you don't have time, when you could use some of those posts to at least get a brief outline of who your top suspect is and why in the thread. That points to survival motive.

This would be a non-awful wagon.
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Post Post #4022 (isolation #64) » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:58 pm

Post by The Fonz »

In post 3946, Thor665 wrote:
In post 3940, reinoe wrote:Axle is trying really hard to distract from the thor wagon. And the people saying thor is town have done a rather poor job of explaining how he's town.

Well, the people calling me scum have also failed.

That said, I think *everyone* is doing a pretty good job of distracting from the Thor wagon (including you and this weak nothing post) because STILL NO ONE HAS PUT ME TO L-1 OR BOTHERED TO WORK ON CREATING A COUNTERWAGON.

What the hell is wrong with all of you?
It's like you're *TRYING* to make a deadline wagon?

Screw you all and the horse you rode in on.

Claim: Power role - I'll claim the rest if someone can put me to L-1 with a hammer intent *or* we can start up a counterwagon and pretend we know how to play the game.


No-one's trying Thor? Really? What the hell do you think I was trying to do in ask if you'd join me on Flubber? Have a nice chat?

Anyway. People oughta unvote. I'm intrigued as to what Thor can do if he's not holding back the tide of derp.
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Post Post #4023 (isolation #65) » Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:13 pm

Post by The Fonz »

In post 3975, Thor665 wrote:

In post 3972, The Fonz wrote:Please don't call me a Smurfing lurksack.

Then stop being one.

I'm not one. Asshat.

In post 3972, The Fonz wrote: For one, I've provided more actual content than Flub.

Congratulations, you are less of a lurksack than another lurksack?


Given that your stated preference for me or TSO (who's requested replacement) over Flub is that 'You'd rather lynch a lurksack like me' that the alternative I'm pressing is more of a 'lurksack' is at least somewhat relevant.

In post 3972, The Fonz wrote:But mostly, when you're absurdly pressed for time and spending half your waking, non-working hours on a game, it's annoying as Smurf. I'm obviously giving my Smurfing everything to scumhunting here, and other people having more free time does not make me a godSmurf lurksack.

It is not obvious that you are giving everything.
The game day is almost over, you are on a useless wagon, and you are not doing anything to advance an L-1 situation or to press the action, or to affect a deaadline lynch of a player you claim to read as town.


Ex-fucking scuse me? Why is my wagon useless? It isn't a one-man vanity wagon, and the only clearly more viable counterwagon is Josh. Which is clearly better than yours, but still not good. So although I'll vote Josh to save you, and I'm also willing to vote beast (more so than Josh) Beast seems no more viable than Flub. I reached out to a player I thought might be receptive, and got cold shouldered. Join me, and I believe we can make Flub viable. Make Beast viable, I'll join you. Just don't try to claim I'm pushing an unviable wagon when there's no clear counterwagon I like. If there were, I'd be on it.
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Post Post #4031 (isolation #66) » Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:39 pm

Post by The Fonz »

@Mod
Could you clean up all the broken quote boxes in my last few posts? Sorry, phone posting is a PITA.


Fixed
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Post Post #4036 (isolation #67) » Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:41 pm

Post by The Fonz »

In post 4027, goodmorning wrote:
In post 4022, The Fonz wrote:Anyway. People oughta unvote. I'm intrigued as to what Thor can do if he's not holding back the tide of derp.

Probably the same as he did D1 and mislynch someone else he felt was a threat to him.

It's not going to be me.



Do you honestly think a conditional read based on a to-be-determined setup fact was a real threat to Thor? That seems ridiculous to me. Especially given your protestations about how hard it is to get anyone to vote Thor.

@Axle: Noted, will respond when I have time for a full post. A problem I have with that wagon is that have you as PE#2, though. Not sure enough you're scum that it isn't worth a go mind.
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Post Post #4055 (isolation #68) » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:46 pm

Post by The Fonz »

In post 4037, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 4036, The Fonz wrote:A problem I have with that wagon is that have you as PE#2, though. Not sure enough you're scum that it isn't worth a go mind.

Axle == parsing error.
PE#2 is Process of Elimination 2 or what? or Piece of Excrement number 2 or ... ?

Also... try talking to me?

What you wanna know?

Probe me on the case see if i am genuine?

Huh?


Public Enemy No2. As in my second strongest scum read. I still feel your claim that you felt TSO unviable rings false. But meh. Like I said, when I have time for a proper post (sometime between 6-12 hrs from now - I just finished a 12hr nightshift).

@Thor - GM is a town read. I'd prefer Josh. Beast has literally no votes. I'm not sure why I should compromise onto a
less
viable wagon. Give me 3 votes, and we'll talk.

@Dave: No. Flubber is my top scum read. It is utterly inconsistent to believe Thor is scum AND I'm buddying him. It's not a protest, though I won't vote Thor even to prevent a NL.
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Post Post #4093 (isolation #69) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:55 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 4067, Slandaar wrote:I have played with PV like 10 times maybe more. No-one listened to me about that. My meta read was absolute. That is the most nonsense I have read in a long time.


I couldn't remember who had the meta read on PV, but I was BEGGING for whoever it was to explain it. Kind of how I also asked you to provide your own meta, and you didn't. :( (And then said you had).

In post 4074, Thor665 wrote:
In post 4055, The Fonz wrote:@Thor - GM is a town read. I'd prefer Josh. Beast has literally no votes. I'm not sure why I should compromise onto a
less
viable wagon. Give me 3 votes, and we'll talk.

Heck, get me 1 on Garmr and we'll talk. I'm working GM, not Beast - I thought that was obvious.


You asked me if I was willing to vote for you, GM, or Beast yet. I explained why I wasn't voting either of the first two any time soon, and not the third unless it had significant traction.

Also, there are three on the Garmr replacement as of the last VC.


In post 4069, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 4055, The Fonz wrote:Public Enemy No2. As in my second strongest scum read. I still feel your claim that you felt TSO unviable rings false. But meh. Like I said, when I have time for a proper post (sometime between 6-12 hrs from now - I just finished a 12hr nightshift).

well if you feel that for gawds sake do something about it.

There are a bunch of reasons for that play if you really want to know.


I've only got one vote, you know. It's more productive to push one of them than spread my already very limited time thinly between two.


Spoiler: Things you dont know which mean you cant have an accurate guess on how reasonable that one choice is
You dont know how sure I was TSO is scum d1. TSO is my D1 the alternative wagon was PereV vs Thor or Anen. All I have to be for certain is more sure TSO will flip scum (than the others),
and or be comparably likely to flip scum
and
is unlikely to start playing observably towny D2. TSO fullfiiled that second criteria in spades. He had already indicated strong desire not to be cooperative in his play style.
You can have some sense from your reading of things I actually said. I was trying to get the scummiest guy lynched... so don´t read too much.
But as no one, and I pretty much mean no one else was willing to even apply pressure(vote) on him D1, where is my magical faith that they will then on D2 consider lynching him with no more actual information come from.

No-one? Muffin was on TSO pretty late. But more to the point, two of the top four wagons from votecount 1.13 were dead, and one of them was on you. And the player TSO had been in a pretty bitter 1vs1 against had just been NKed and flipped town. Thor was literally the only player who had gotten more traction than TSO on day one who was still alive and available for you to vote. Also, the 'things I don't know' apply to literally anyone's vote. I don't know what anyone's
really
thinking. All I can do is apply the model of their mind that best fits the behaviour.

Not only that but if anyone had changed on D2 and suddenly become sure TSO was scum when they wouldnt budge D1, that would be scummy as fuck, and Id want to lynch anyone else that voted for TSO D2 without new evidence. So trying to get new vote on TSO without new info is actually I think self defeating.
(note for future games meta readers (and this games readers) this D1 was special with how little anyone pushed anything, so them flipping onto TSO D2 would be awful.)


Why would they have to be sure? That makes no sense.

You also have no valid estimate, of what I thought might eventuate if I stopped pushing so hard. I did indicate a desire to still see the reads(even with the flip), he indicted he had promised them to his hood.
If he lied and he hadn´t then him lying about what he said to his hood is for them to sort out. If he had promised an didnt deliver to them, that is again for them to sort out.
If I had stuck my big fat nose in that then TSO could again simply have effectively said ¨No I wont do it because axle pisses me off and hes stupid, and so I dont want to.¨ Childish and silly but it worked fine D1. and he has meta for pissing matches.... (but see muffins law about meta)


IDK what Muffin's law is (tell me, it seems interesting). Again, you're somehow faulting me for not being psychic. I don't know what your reason was, if you're town - but I know I can't think of one that makes sense. I can think of reasons it would be inconvenient as scum to keep pushing it.

Also go back and see who I first pointed out Anens previous game history too? It was Garmr.
I was always interested, and always thought his stated reasons were probably scummy, but my D1 plan had been to get TSOs reasons first then move on or at least talk to them both.
TSO stalled for so damn long I never got to also deal with Garmr D1.

So on D2 I did the productive thing and checked if anyone else was scummier.
You seem to be rather heavily implying you´d possibly vote TSO today? If so then you find him scummy, you push it. If he is scum, he cant pretend pre-existing bad blood with you.


No, I'm not implying that in any, way, shape or form, and I have NFI where you get that from.


Your problem with reading my seeming change in direction as town, is you have an over simplistic expectation of how I play the game and how tunnelled I am on TSO.
One of my std sigs is ÄxleNoTheoryToAbsurdToBeConsideredGreaser. I never get 100% tunnelled. The theory I am in the wrong tunnel is never to absurd.
also as that is one choice youd have to hav an accurate and strong feel for it to reasonably get to PE#2 status.


Nope. I just think that at any point when a player's top suspect from the previous day is still alive and indeed made to look more suspect by overnight events, and they switch off, I'd expect either continued pursuit, or an explanation of why that player is no longer a big suspect, or a comparative case on why that player is still scummy but the new suspect is scummier. But you just dropped it as if you'd never pushed it to begin with.

Thus I have problem with you.

You have claimed I am your PE#2

I have a huge fricken filter and long posts, on lots of stuff.
and the one scummy point you have to mention is a change in direction you have never really asked me about much?
FFS. All my reads have more substance than that.
If your reads are actually that thin do something about it ....
It looks like stalling.


Yeah, so I am skimming most of your posts because I find your syntax tortured and headachey to read, and your logic hard to follow. I think it's probably fair to say you are the no1 reason this game is unfun and hard to keep up with, and though I'm trying not to let this affect my view of your alignment, it certainly doesn't incline me to spend a ton of time on your horrible walls.

As I note, I haven't been pushing you today because I am mega-strapped for time so focussing on the slightly stronger case.

For a start,
take your hands out of your pockets and work out if that one tiny point in my great big filter is anything at all.


98% of what pretty much anyone writes isn't alignment-relevant. And it's not for you to decide if it's a big point or not. I think it's strong evidence that you don't have any kind of town thought process that makes any sense to me. Most of your explanations here seem like excuses rather than actual motives.

Anyway. The basic reason for not buying Garmr/Josh as a particular scum read (they're pretty null to me) is that I find Dave's rebuttal to your case more reasonable and easier to follow than the case itself. I'm not convinced you've proven anything other than that garmr wasn't the brightest bulb in the hardware store. Next post: the Flub case.
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Post Post #4095 (isolation #70) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:18 am

Post by The Fonz »

Flubber:

As I've noted before, I just feel like replacing in and attacking the biggest wagon is the percentage scum play where he replaces in. Note that he doesn't try to talk anyone off peregrine. Indeed, he tells Thor he's going after Peregrine for the
wrong
reasons. Note how this puts him into the perfect spot to let PV get lynched (and imply he kind of deserves it for contributing to the noise) then chain Thor today. (For a player who's main justification on replacing in is noise/signal, he's also pretty noisy, and fuels the Thor/PV flames while claiming he's against how Thor/PV is dominating the game).

Note today. Just check the difference between GM's obvious earnestness in pushing Thor and Flubber, who's not really engaging with opponents or neutrals, just snarking at them and throwing out occasional observations that are forgotten soon after. He throws out a load of one line criticisms of people's play, and doesn't really follow through on or triage any of them. There's a load of kinda fact-checky stuff, which seems illusion-of-contenty to me. He forgets about his Dave read for ages, then throws in a casual ''Oh, btw, he's still scum guys.'' note This is a read he's apparently had consistently since day one, but wtf has he done with it? Note the 'Leave Dave for tomorrow' stuff. So whether Thor would flip scum has no impact on Dave's alignment either way? Really?

And yeah, the contradiction is a contradiction, whether he calls it a throwaway comment or not. Pretty much everything he's said has been throwaway, disposable - so if I ignored that, I'd have to ignore everything. Am I scum buddying town-Thor? Is Dave bussing, or going for the mislynch? His play isn't joined up. He just throws out comments.

TL/DR: It feels like by having Thor and GM wagons, it's just the people who disliked the PV push yesterday and the Thor push today scapegoating the most vocal/passionate advocate of each wagon, when I think it's more likely scum are more somewhere less prominent in either case. Flubber's 'Blame Thor AND Peregrine for NOISE' stuff feels scum-motivated.
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Post Post #4097 (isolation #71) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:32 am

Post by The Fonz »

Hey, SHIRO -you're on a vanity wagon yet active. Rank in terms of lynch desirability:

Thor
Flub
Josh

Thanks.
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Post Post #4098 (isolation #72) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:37 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 4096, Thor665 wrote:
In post 4095, The Fonz wrote:TL/DR: It feels like by having Thor and GM wagons, it's just the people who disliked the PV push yesterday and the Thor push today scapegoating the most vocal/passionate advocate of each wagon, when I think it's more likely scum are more somewhere less prominent in either case. Flubber's 'Blame Thor AND Peregrine for NOISE' stuff feels scum-motivated.

Though there hasn't been a GM wagon, really. The biggest it got was...three? It definitely made two.
Does that affect this read?


Nope. It probably means I should have been less passive aggressive and directed it straight at you, tho.

That said, 3 in the context of this game of vanity wagons is quite a big wagon, relatively. I feel that GM is the worst wagon of the Thorwagoners.
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Post Post #4156 (isolation #73) » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:36 pm

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In post 4101, Flubbernugget wrote:My favorite part of the Fonz's case is where he says I'm not pushing a lynch on a lurker.

Btw my case was based on the fact that he was distanced from the game, which he no longer is.


Oooh, feel the dishonesty. It's palpable. You did nothing wrt him for a long period which was sandwiched by posts calling him scum. Ergo, your claim that you changed your read (which, BTW, you never indicated) does not apply to the period I'm talking about.

BTE - slightly meta diversion - why do people assume that when I'm talking about lack of pushing scumreads, I mean lack of talking TO them rather than to other players ABOUT them?

I'm also being criticized for seeing an interaction as scum v. scum and wanting to push a lynch on the stronger player of the interaction. That's fun.


Criticism? Odd word choice. I think the choices you have made, while defensible for town, are particularly beneficial for scum. Unlike the incredible disappearing Dave read, I don't think this is a position you'd be that unlikely to take as town - just that it makes rltactical sense as a scum line. Though note, this is the first time I can recall you explicitly saying you believed it scum/scum.
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Post Post #4283 (isolation #74) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:39 am

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Unvote, Vote: Boonskiies


You know what? This is the perfect opportunity to scratch the Boon itch. HE IS NEVER GETTING NIGHTKILLED. I also expect him to keep on derping non-alignment relevantly the rest of the way. Which, as I said earlier, means we either a) waste some kind of investigation on the least useful possible person to confirm as town, b) lynch him - in which case now is the optimal possible time - any later lynch we pass up to lynch him is a higher opportunity cost than this lynch (we'd either have higher odds of hitting scum just at random, or flipped scum to work off and either way probably more night action info) which is likely to be rushed and satisfy no-one anyway c) Gamble the entire game on the hope he's town, or d) Hope for a miracle. I'm not religious, and I'd hate myself if we did c) and lost.

Just to be clear - this is an unrepentant policy vote. I happen to think neither Dave nor Josh are any more likely than Boon to flip scum. But I'd probably do it anyway.

Anyone who refuses to vote Boonskiies now forfeits the right to call him scum later barring one of the best cases I've ever seen.

P-Edit: Lol, Ninja'd by Boon playing the martyr. Lovely.
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Post Post #4297 (isolation #75) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:51 am

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Nero's weird, because I suspected him early, then he attacks me hard (which I grudgingly see as kinda townish) then started today really well, then vanished... he's had periods of active lurk, periods of nonactivity, and bursts of decent-ish scumhunting.

More to the point - I do not feel there is time to do a new case-based wagon properly. I think there may be enough people who don't want to have to deal with the Boon headache. I mean... does anyone at all think Boon is a worse-than-random lynch? Because at this stage, I'm fine with a basically random lynch with positive externalities.

Also, Thor: make a smurfing case.
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Post Post #4302 (isolation #76) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:55 am

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In post 4298, Boonskiies wrote:Look at Nero actively avoiding everything anyone is putting against him. He's the lynch for today, people. It is NOT a random lynch. Fonz is probably his buddy trying to save Nero by going after me instead of drawing focus on Nero.


So, seriously, who's up for putting up with this kind of 'analysis' every day until deadline? Lynch him now, or forever hold your peace!

(If Boon survives today, I will not be voting for him later on barring the aforementioned awesome case).
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Post Post #4325 (isolation #77) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:13 pm

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In post 4313, TierShift wrote:Fonz what is your nero read?


Weak town read. See the above. I suspected him early D1, but he does get more purposeful, even if I didn't like the direction he took. I see no glaring contradictions or anything.
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Post Post #4376 (isolation #78) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:20 pm

Post by The Fonz »

In post 4347, Thor665 wrote:
So basically you barely buy into the reason for your vote in any case.
Meh.


Nope. It means exactly the opposite - I am deadly serious about settling the Boon thing
one way or another
right now. I do not want to continue having the 'Is his latest derp just derp or scummy?' for the rest of this game, with him hovering on the edge of the lynch candidates pool from here until endgame. I do not believe he is going to give us anything but alignment-irrelevant stupidity the whole way.

In post 4364, goodmorning wrote:
In post 4198, Thor665 wrote:

How in the flying fuck do you have Fonz as a townread???????



Because he's halfway fucking competent. Seriously, I piss town motive in this game.
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Post Post #4381 (isolation #79) » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:45 pm

Post by The Fonz »

In post 4379, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 4376, The Fonz wrote:Seriously, I piss town motive in this game.

PV called. :shifty:


PV was super scummy.

Anyway, having strong scum reads and pushing them is in no sense incompatible with town motive.
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Post Post #4567 (isolation #80) » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:03 pm

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Not caught up. Skimmed from last VC looking for votes.

Vote: Davesaz
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