NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[AxleGreaser]

I suck while I'm town and make no logic.

Funny I read that as dont try when town and make no logic.
Also I can live with you being bad as town, just so long as you try well enough for me to follow how you reach wrong conclusions.

That will be problem for your future scum games, but in this game your claiming to be town 2 shot BP.... right?

[AxleGreaser]

(clarity)

That (try well enough.. blah blah) will be problem for your future scum games, but in this game your claiming to be town 2 shot BP.... right?

[AxleGreaser]

2)scum factions hate shooting someone who's bulletproof. Your claim makes it therefore highly unlikely you'll be nightkilled.

His soft claim was on D1 that when he tried to draw the NK.

He recently gave up trying to get nk'd and out as 2 shot BP.

He at no time claimed 2 shot BP in an effort to get Nk'd.

sheesh

[AxleGreaser]

p:edit. what? Is thor really at L-1 already? sigh.

What the fuck. (Sorry been trying to work out how to express the Garmr case so people might actually vote for the scummy guy today)

So what exactly is the case on Thor?

he stuck his neck out D1 and pushed a case, when all the other brave townies stood in corners whispering safely...

he then took more of back seat D2... (and voted someone who needed pressure in order to play at all D2?)

FFS, in that case, if thats scummy, I want to lynch pretty much most people who were here D1.

If your going to lynch him, pony up an actual case.

[AxleGreaser]

Yes.

and you want to lynch him over that,

but you wouldnt want to lynch TSO for all the times he ...

please explain.

[AxleGreaser]

Yes.

and you want to lynch him over that,

but you wouldnt want to lynch TSO for all the times he ...

please explain.

also explain why you're not voting for Garmr

[AxleGreaser]

I wouldn't vote for someone who isn't on my scumread list.

and why isnt he?

[AxleGreaser]

I don't like how Axle is spending most of his time putting up walls at/about Garmr but not voting him. Same thing happened yesterday and clogging up the thread is a scum tactic.

VOTE: AxleGreaser

@Dave

I know you dont like it, but it is how I find out I am sure enough (more than others) that someone is scum
Its also how I stop Garmr having the excuse to go all emotional (OMG Axles voting me.. its one on one, I have town meta as flipping out(as my shield), and going 1v1, weeee)
(I imagine hes pretty good at faking that, so I didnt let him make me play on his home soil. Ok?)
I wanted to see if he really had a conviction (as thought) to back up his claimed 85% likely to flip scum, I dont see it.
That I can say its not there is because I did not give the excuse to fan it with fake rage at being accused and 1v1. Me = Town plan.

So do you want to vote Garmr now? if not why not.
I like my case, and the other stuff I posted earlier.

If you actually think I am scummier than Garmr start explaining it.

[AxleGreaser]

Welp, ignorant people will be ignorant. I said once I realized I'm not going to be NK'd, I claimed. Do with it what you will.

VOTE: Reinoe

Usually when I find people to be ignorant they end up being scum.

Um boon, dont look in the mirror and all that jazz. Otherwise you might just self vote.

Also Boon, how come you stop voting Garmr when there starts to be an actual case posted on him.

Are you allergic to voting people that might get flipped?
(yeah yeah i know you hammered, but by then it was largely risk free, )

[AxleGreaser]

Welp, ignorant people will be ignorant. I said once I realized I'm not going to be NK'd, I claimed. Do with it what you will.

VOTE: Reinoe

Usually when I find people to be ignorant they end up being scum.

You've never played with reinoe, have you...

I have not either. but i read one or more (really, I did)
The game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=44815
This post has TLDR (of the relevant part), its less painful to read. (pretty sure its accurate) IIRC. Renoe is player B the hammerer
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5920438

[AxleGreaser]

I'm sure there's a reason somewhere why I don't have Garmr on my scumread list but it's not really on the forefront of my mind.

On a rather unrelated note, seeing a player of Thor's caliber relying on petty insults to defend himself is somewhat shameful and continues to make me think that he has no genuine defense or explanation to offer.

I on the other hand did not leave my reasons in my other pants pocket 3243 (since then I remembered Reinoe is Reinoe)

However you appear set on the course of neither voting Garmr nor refuting my case.
Your call.. for now.

[AxleGreaser]

Also,

@Flubber,

who's town and why?

Anyone that isn't a scum read of mine and isn't a lurker gets to be town for my sanity.

Garmr is null because I haven't bothered to parse a single post of his yet.

Thor I still wanna know why dave is town.

I can tell you why Garmr is scum instead if that will help? 3229

[AxleGreaser]

I'm sure there's a reason somewhere why I don't have Garmr on my scumread list but it's not really on the forefront of my mind.

On a rather unrelated note, seeing a player of Thor's caliber relying on petty insults to defend himself is somewhat shameful and continues to make me think that he has no genuine defense or explanation to offer.

I on the other hand did not leave my reasons in my other pants pocket 3243 (since then I remembered Reinoe is Reinoe)

However you appear set on the course of neither voting Garmr nor refuting my case.
Your call.. for now.

Maybe because your case is bad and no one takes it seriously, it's not really worth discussing.

If that is so that is what will happen, and there'd be no point in you saying this. ^^^

Funny how even though i am 85% likely to be scum to you.
In this post you are claiming my case is bad, instead of fabricated.

Its almost like you actually know I am town, with the same certainty i do.

I would probably consider voting you for that post alone.

[AxleGreaser]

You are voting me. But now your just clogging the thread with heaps and heaps of posts. That's fine to push me but if your not offering any new points do it maybe once a page so you don't clog up the thread. Also people are more likely to listen to you if you don't shove it hard in their face.

I did I offered a nice new summary 3229 and now I have been engaging with people to find out either why they are or are not voting you.
My last post made brand new point why you are

scum

.
and to emphasise how

strong

I thought that was that Indicated I would possibly vote you based on just that point.

If nothing else, you claim I am 85% likely to flip scum eventually, surely you want me to interact with as many people as possible?

As my posting times and TZ dont overlap with most posters, I will interact interactively where ever I can

ta for the advice?
but I do not really see the connection between your claimed reality (my claimed by you to be scum interaction posts are useless)
and what it would be if you are town who thought I was scum though.
HTH HAND

[AxleGreaser]

You guys act like I'm paying a lot of attention to this game...I've played tons of games with Reinoe actually. Have you ever played games with me? LlLllLlllllL.

So in that case would you agree that if town cant find someone they are confident is scum then they ought just lynch you who is even
at best
is a not paying attention townie.

last time i did the math loses loses most of the time if players are actually no better than RNG.

and in case you are curious, yeah I've seen your games too, but cant remember which.

[AxleGreaser]

everyone you voted isn't actually town reading

You do note when I started not town reading you. 688
and it started way before you voted me.

In fact it was right when you found out i already was investigating you as scum, that you yourself
were suddenly hit by my perceived scumminess.

So no my read on you was in no way OMGUS.
Similarly my read on TSO started when TSO had not expressed any significant concern over me, 688

No my reads are not OMGUS related.

and yes by the time I became convinced that I want to vote TSO yesterday and you today, both of you had already reacted
and preemptively voted me for scum hunting you.

the difference is I first had to work out your really were scum before I voted you.

Thats because i am town and you are not.

[AxleGreaser]

FYI: Oh yeah cooking dinner tonight again, wont be responsive but will be back.

[AxleGreaser]

Also the fact you said boon was a easy vote and that was the wagon you were just on -shakes head-

Remember D1, when you voted Boon.... that was you voting the easy wagon. he was a lynch bait player.

Also when you voted Boon again today, peopel ought go back and check just how easy that was for a scummy player to do.

2919 GM 2920 Axle 2923 Tier 2932 Thor 2940 all expressed negative opinions.
Blind freddy (au colloq) could read that thread sentiment and make the easy vote. 2941

-shakes head- indeed.
Yeah you made the easy vote D2 as well,
my bad for not pointing that one out too.
(only problem is that may be easy and good vote, your others were easy, scummily bad, and safe)

Spoiler: regarding humor and LOLs

@anyone with Garmr's professed myopic world view.
Oh and boo hoo, that my idea of fun, and yours don't gel. (568 575 3096)(others? i dont remember)
If you stay up or get up between my say 1pm and 3pm (when I can usually wangle time I can waste, we will have a social chat and a ball)
now I could let Skip, start saying things in the thread, hes IMO a really funny dog, but I don't think youd like that either.
So how about we just find scum and lynch them eh?

[AxleGreaser]

I'm not a good town player, let's be honest. I suck while I'm town and make no logic.

I hate hate hate this argument.

"I play such-and-such way as town, therefore bla bla bla"

If you know your own meta, then your meta is useless.

I've said this so often I'm putting it in my sig.

While i agree whole heartedly (I really like quirks exception to godwin)

AxleGreaser's exception to Muffin's law: Except self knowledge of ticks and any "uncontrollable" meta does not invalidate it.

Sig change

[AxleGreaser]

I dont know if this will make sense to other people or not ( I like it)

So time ago I posted
Showing Garmr being overly sensitive to Aneninen asking him questions that in anyway indicated suspicion

Spoiler: Holy over sensitive souls....

Garmr: to be questioned on 418 becuase he just

labeled me as scum

because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game,

Holy over sensitive souls....
He said in 418

Garmr, 360: This was just WTF. What Tha Fukk.

Garmr, 415 – that vote, uhhh. If you have told that you had voted for Boonskiies because of lurking and producing nothing I would have believed it. But, what kind of reasoning was that?

Which asked a question so I sure hope he was expecting a response...
and

Garmr is FoS-Scum.

Ok

FoS

Garmr
For being overly sensitive about people scum reading him even a tiny bit. Scum are survival oriented and more likely to overreact to suspicion.

Then later I posted that as part of a case 3229, which Garmr calls bad and not to be taken seriously 3262
however the one player that I know for certain knows if my case is valid or not (Garmr)
Garmr recently said

I really don't mind being a wagon.

That seems like very large change in outlook, in response? to case that is irrelevant and not taken seriously.

I do not in anyway, take this recent willingness to be wagoned as in anyway a town tell.
(lack of survival focus)

Willingness, to be wagoned by a guy he is already 85% sure is scum also does not quite make towny sense to me.
(me thinks the lad dost protest too much)(ala Lady Macbeth)

Also, not sure how he thinks he might be wagonned if he is actually sure the case is bad and no one will take it seriously?
(yet more protestations)

[AxleGreaser]

Instead, you could just show that there were more anen mentions than pere mentions.

and if true Thors actually wrong about something... when was the last time you saw him back down?

and if hes wrong would it make him scum.
and if hes just reluctant would it make him scum.

and basically please explain why you are scum reading him. (he has claimed he can fool me all of the time)

(please note I dont actually know who is right out of Thor and Muffin's tiff, and I am not sure I care..)

either that or you could vote for the forced as shit scummy guy? (he says he wont mind)

[AxleGreaser]

Because Thor wins his arguments/debates by cramming his opinions down other people's throats, regardless of their validity, until the opposition loses motivation to continue the discussion.

Then he scumreads them by saying that they were not pushing their arguments at all or that they must have been arguing something they didn't believe if they would drop it so readily.

and does he do that as both town and scum? (because I am sure he does it as town.)

(although he does not always call them scummy, especially if they are not)

[AxleGreaser]

So, we can see way more discussion about Ane than PV.

I lost track...
does that mean you just showed something Thor said was right? (BTW I probably don't care but curious as I lost track)
(when viewed with certain interpretation of the words)(dunno if that caveat is required or not)

Was it alignment indicative?

How?

Time to Vote Garmr? because he is scummy, and "forced as shit"

[AxleGreaser]

If you want to make this argument

PV was the leading wagon, whom you voted while managing to take no responsibility with your vote with the progression you took.

this post and the language in it

VOTE:PERE

I thought Anen was best but eh now I dont want it and Thor is still a really horrible wagon imo so yea

Support you.

or they are a newb forced into to making a lynch decision shortly after starting the game on great big mess of an argument.
True Shiro tried to bail out on the easier Anen vote.

So I pushed. Shiro posted lots of words in answer to questions about the first vote.

True today Shiro is failing to be focussed on finding scum and keeps coming back to "why are you voting Shiro..."
@Shiro, doing that is pointless, how will you ever work out who you want to vote, the most important thing you do today?

The argument about numbers of references is utter filler BS.
You not only have to really count how much attention was paid to each but why it happened.

I asked Shiro questions about Anen. Shiro replied.

[AxleGreaser]

If you have two wagons you would expect someone who is town to look at them both equally.

our mind meld (or the one i felt is broken.)
I absolutely do not expect that. i expect them to take as much time as is required to find out about each.
With two wagons and need to lynch... I might actually choose to find out about the easier wagon and see if I could become so sure on it the other became the default lynch.

In 2420 Shiro indicated an initial preference for the Anen
I asked questions 2435
I asked even more questions at 2440
about there having got Shiro talking i let go ...

The issue is Shiro has focused on the smaller wagon more than the larger wagon and when he was townreading both voted the larger wagon with no real reason other than 'the other wagon is town'.

also as they both flipped town...
PoE is thing?

I am not really seeing what is being discussed here.

Is it that Shiro caved to what you perceive as pressure? What seemed popular? (got the least argument?)

[AxleGreaser]

PV was the leading wagon, whom you voted while managing to take no responsibility with your vote with the progression you took.

I don't follow... Shiro isn't denying that she voted PV? What kind of responsibility

should

she be putting on her vote? How are others taking responsibility for their votes in ways that she is not?

This

VOTE:PERE

I thought Anen was best but eh now I dont want it and Thor is still a really horrible wagon imo so yea

sounds "mealy mouthed"

and if Shiro was experienced who knew the lingo... then as town or scum

Shiro would have used PoE in an assertive forthright sentence that sounded just fine.

It is a mole hill...

Its not a case

neither is the argument around it, as near as I can tell.

[AxleGreaser]

Slandaar's focus on proving thor's factual basis right is so wrong

I agree.

I've never played with thor before. But you're saying his town MO is discrediting people who are right?

I also dont like discredit being in this, when it was not said. (as far as i saw)

I am funny like that.

[AxleGreaser]

Slandaar's focus on proving thor's factual basis right is so wrong

so was you arguing about it here?

Look, thor.
You made the statement about there being many more anen mentions than pere mentions. Muffin tried to show there weren't. You just said he was doing it wrong and you said he was twisting your words. You also suggested there were more anen posts than muffin showed due to pronouns.

Instead, you could just show that there were more anen mentions than pere mentions.

But now I did a shiro ISO and found that there is about 1 post more on anen (than on pere), in which she calls him scum. In the following post already, she says she was probably wrong. Your previous suggestion that there were more posts because of pronouns is simply wrong.

I don't understand why you're just telling other people that they're wrong when they're trying to understand your arguments, instead of explaining/correcting them? And when your basis is wrong, why do you keep insisting other people are to blame?

[AxleGreaser]

No, I am not saying this. It's how he did it. If he had said 'Well I think they are both town so don't care which is lynched PV is larger wagon vote:PV' that would be fine but he didn't.

Yeas and as per 3297 that is a point not a case to lynch on D2.

You can Add (but i dont anyone except me has said it yet)
Shiro should be looking for scum, not so excessively curious about "why vote me"

again, should and is that plausible given Shiros experience level are two different things.

breathing room.

If Shiro goes on being scummy, by all means lynch Shiro to bits. (Ill bang the drum)

Today lynch the scummy guy, that is "forced as shit"

[AxleGreaser]

I've never played with thor before. But

you're saying

his town MO is discrediting people who are right?

I also dont like discredit being in this, when it was not said. (as far as i saw)

I am funny like that.

I do not understand what you're saying here, but if you're suggesting thor is not discrediting, I can show you examples of where he is. If you're not saying that, what are you saying?

No as stated (TBMK) no one else mentioned discrediting. You mentioned discrediting in a way that

put it into other peoples mouths

.

If you wish to show examples of him doing that and you believe they are alignment indicative that would be good thing to do. (obviously?)

Thor has said things about me that I disagree with. Some I corrected some I ignored.
Thor if hes town doesn't know my alignment, and needs to find out. He does that by being Thor.

town!Thor knows Thors alignment, who do you think Thor should want to have control of the thread direction? an influence?

I suspect I will find it very hard to identify Thors scum game, as very similar behaviours could I think make fine and useful scum meta.
So if you are going to show relatively normal Thor behaviours and claim they are scum you will probably need to be quite discerning in your choices.

You right now give me bad vibes. (its new please stop)

I do not understand what you're saying here, but if you're suggesting thor is not discrediting, I can show you examples of where he is. If you're not saying that, what are you saying?

I get the distinct feeling youd like to show Thor discrediting, but want a reason to.

What I am saying is what I said: other people did not AFAIsaw say discrediting.

[AxleGreaser]

Yeas and as per 3297 that is a point not a case to lynch on D2.

It isn't the case it's a point like you say...

So now can we lynch Garmr today?

[AxleGreaser]

I still have no idea what you meant with the discrediting comment axle

This statement

But you're saying

his town MO is discrediting people who are right?

is false

No one said

that

.

Try just going with that.

Oh and then decide if you want to show Thor discrediting people or not. (Aka is what you are going to show alignment indicative)

Actually I just got the significance of you have not played with Thor before.
I have not either, but I have read a number of his games, some(one or more) long before I joined the forum. So I am not even knew to his play style.

I am not sure what to suggest, as reading enough stuff carefully enough in another Thor game (or games) to get feel for his play is not a small task.
I may or may not have suggestion for you tomorrow. (about 12 hrs) (then I will be AFK for 24)

[AxleGreaser]

(new and improved now with more

annotations

and bits and links and new ending)
(well I think its better but it got little bit bigger too so original is 3229.)
Reasons for voting Garmr D2. (annotated version)

As indicated D1
1585 I have been suspicious of the voters on the Anen wagon since 688 1530 1596 and have been trying to work who is scum and who is wrong or bad ever since.

GARMR

is scum because

Safe Play

Voting easy, not likely fight back targets

Boonskiies:

for bad(made up) reasons

(discussion of Aneninens criticism of boonskiies read here 2481 references 423)

Aneninen:

for pointing out the reasons were bad (but providing others that would be Ok) See 418
Thereby (according to garnr) stopping the pressure on Boon? (see below)
Aneninen offered these alternative reasons in 418 Anen: "If you have told that you had voted for Boonskiies because of lurking and producing nothing I would have believed it."

Axle ?:

Dont know if I look safe to attack or not? (see OMGUS/self conscious)

then not actually progressing the cases, even when 85% sure they are scum...

OMGUS

(

overly self conscious

)

Aneninen

See: Holy over sensitive souls, end of 2481

Axle

Extra double self conscious

I mention I have similar problem with his read. and ASK if he(Garmr) can explain TSOs read on Anen? 1585
(because I am at the time scum hunting TSO, and trying to understand TSOs reasons. And why none else seems to care TSO doesnt have any stated reasons as being related to the thread explicitly.))
Garmr replies ignoring the question because its all about him 1589
“I have explained my reasons even through it started with a misunderstanding.”
and suddenly (Garmr: "bang it hit me") Garmr decides I am scum (In D2 somewhere 2788 he claims it didn't happen like that)

Scummy reasoning as previously described 2481

Perhaps the most telling for me is most recently stated in 2643
I do know that in fact Garmr unvoted Boon when Boon soft claimed D1

but Garmr claims

that Aneninens (chainsaw/wk) of boon that Garmr 2441 “he(Anen) stopped my pressure on boon ” “It really cut any progress on boonskies short as he hasn't provided much content."

Scummy Bullshit.

Especially when garmr also charcterises Anens post as making Garmnrs points stronger

Also see the whole garmr Boon interaction (do a double ISO) 183 already pre neutered any real pressure brought by 415

I cant see how a town mind can simultaneous think all those things. (points made stronger, and pressure removed == Nope not buying it)

Scum

can however be upset that their nice safe to hide vote on Boon is taken away, so they OMGUS the guy that did it.
That makes sense.

lastly (for now)
Garmr says of

him

(Boon)

who ever is shooting from shooting

him

again.

what makes you think anyone is shooting

him

?

I cant see any reasonable reason a towny would be using the language "shooting him again", and be assuming it had already happened and that Boon knew.
(read the subsequent discussion for yourself)

However if Garmr belongs to a faction that had shot Boon, then that makes lots of sense.
I hate slips, per se, but only to the extent that I would hardly ever lynch someone on the basis of just that
However, such point is one more piece of evidence ina continuing and enduring pattern of scummy play.

That is eminently lynchable, and way more likely to flip scum than any one trick pony based wagon.

vote of Garmr happened 3229

After this more reasons appeared as Garma reacted to the case.

3262 Garmr claims Axles case is bad, no one takes seriously, not worth discussing
3263 I ask why his post feels like he knows I am town. (read it) (Garmr saying Axle 85% scum is here 2788)

3264 Garmr Claims: Axle is clogging up the thread.
3265 If Axle is 85% scum then Axle am generating interactions for when Axle flips sometime (thats a good thing yeah?)

3267 Garmr Claims: Axle is no fun. Garmr doesnt mind being a wagon
3269 3271 These answer bits of 3267 (read them if you found 3267 persuasive.)

3274 Is for me very strong point. I see Garmr being happy to be wagoned by a guy he 85% scum reads to be clearly not towny.

[AxleGreaser]

As per 3310 Axle: AFK for about 24

meanwhile:
You could all, Ya know vote "the scummy guy, 3318 that is "forced as shit"" 3276

Spoiler: take 1 every 6 hrs, or as required

#1
You could all, Ya know vote "the scummy guy, 3318 that is "forced as shit"" 3276
You could all, Ya know vote "the scummy guy, 3318 that is "forced as shit"" 3276
You could all, Ya know vote "the scummy guy, 3318 that is "forced as shit"" 3276
You could all, Ya know vote "the scummy guy, 3318 that is "forced as shit"" 3276
#Goto 1

[AxleGreaser]

@Goodmorning

Please do not misrepresent my views like that

@Axle: You're telling me you read Thor as Town

because he says you can't read him

?

I would only be telling you that if you cant/didnt read my post
you apparently also dont remember what you asked

You asked: " what is your read on Thor?" << does not ask for a reason (a because)

and I told you, and I never stated a reason at all.
(I did tell you why I had downgraded it, from what would have been a stronger town read)

Other than that you want to lynch Thor I have no clear idea what your reasoning is.
If he flips town I have nothing i can clearly hold you accountable for. that is a scummy way to try and get a guy lynched. Stop it.


Please state your reasoning for wanting to lynch Thor.

on D1 you claimed it was all tone and feels and refused to provide details.
I believe on D2 all of sudden you have started being able to provide details based on D1 posts.

The D1 lynch mislynched one townie who was being wagoned against another(Anen)
and you rather conveniently were not pushing your wagon with reason so it didnt go anywhere.

Now on D2, all of sudden you have reasons?

I call BS, explain your case
explain why on D2 it has details and on D1, you didnt have any

[AxleGreaser]

Reinoe: that was regarding the IZ slip not the case on Thor.

Also reinoe go back and read GMs post on Thor D1.... rather a lot of "I read scum Thor because of Tone"
it was a safe way to push as there is nothing you can say isnt just wrong. (Tone is a matter of opinion)
I also dont remember it being any more specific than tone such as "the tone of post X is off"

[AxleGreaser]

I'd pl this slot. His case on PV yesterday was all sorts of horrible.

@Nero

This looks rather a lot like you are claiming scum. Are you claiming scum?

You say today on D2, "His(Thors) case on PV yesterday was all sorts of horrible."

Please show me where on D1 you pointed out that all sorts of horrible?

I dont remember you doing that, and i just I looked and i didnt see you do that.

If it was all sorts of horrible, where were you ?

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: irrelevant stuff

I'm sort of leaning Town on him based on the fact that he seems to be scumhunting more genuinely than literally anyone else.

Scumhunting more genuinely than anyone else in the game only earns 'sort of leaning town'?

Says the guy who posted this readlist:

Aeronaut - lurksack
AxleGrease - poor logic, no clear opinion beyond that. Probably scumish.
Aneninen - No idea, would not oppose lynch, would not support lynch.
Boonskiies - lurksack, begrudingly shifting to town due to Dave, but still a useless slot.
Cho - Lurksack.
GrayFoxxxx - Lurksack.
davesaz - Townish
Egg - Townish
Garmr - Townish
goodmorning - terrible...alignment uncertain Meh, I'd help lynch her and consider it worthwhile probably.
Goofyd00d - Lurksack (mild town on prior to derping out and replace)
hephaestus - burning newb - no real vibe yet, still trying to even get him to commit to opinions.
Izariael - Newb, mild scum...very mild.
Muffin - Not fond of hard Thor defense. Call it mildly mild on the scum side.
Nero Cain - Townish
Scripten - I can remember having an opinion on him but can't recall what it is. If I was asked about him I'd ISO myself and repeat whatever I said last (townish?)
T S O - Townish
TierShift - Townish
TobyLoby - Lurksack.

So yes, by all means, oh wise mafia sensei, tell us all how we

should

be wording our reads to make them credible. I guess this is more of a "do as I say, not as I do" thing, right?

In the spoiler above is Tiers post. The following questions are about that post.

Please indicate what direction town or scum the above post indicates Thor to be?

it appears only to be an attack on credibility. Why?

is there something wrong with Thors observation about the inconsistentcy between the reason and the conclusion in GMs post.
If there is does your post in anyway make it clearer?

[AxleGreaser]

@Izariael

EBWOP (soory got the author wrong, {blush}, and BTW the point is I dont give stuff who said it, its a stand alone BS motivated post)

Spoiler: irrelevant stuff

I'm sort of leaning Town on him based on the fact that he seems to be scumhunting more genuinely than literally anyone else.

Scumhunting more genuinely than anyone else in the game only earns 'sort of leaning town'?

Says the guy who posted this readlist:

Aeronaut - lurksack
AxleGrease - poor logic, no clear opinion beyond that. Probably scumish.
Aneninen - No idea, would not oppose lynch, would not support lynch.
Boonskiies - lurksack, begrudingly shifting to town due to Dave, but still a useless slot.
Cho - Lurksack.
GrayFoxxxx - Lurksack.
davesaz - Townish
Egg - Townish
Garmr - Townish
goodmorning - terrible...alignment uncertain Meh, I'd help lynch her and consider it worthwhile probably.
Goofyd00d - Lurksack (mild town on prior to derping out and replace)
hephaestus - burning newb - no real vibe yet, still trying to even get him to commit to opinions.
Izariael - Newb, mild scum...very mild.
Muffin - Not fond of hard Thor defense. Call it mildly mild on the scum side.
Nero Cain - Townish
Scripten - I can remember having an opinion on him but can't recall what it is. If I was asked about him I'd ISO myself and repeat whatever I said last (townish?)
T S O - Townish
TierShift - Townish
TobyLoby - Lurksack.

So yes, by all means, oh wise mafia sensei, tell us all how we

should

be wording our reads to make them credible. I guess this is more of a "do as I say, not as I do" thing, right?

In the spoiler above is Izariael post. The following questions are about that post.

Please indicate what direction town or scum the above post indicates Thor to be?

it appears only to be an attack on credibility. Why?

is there something wrong with Thors observation about the inconsistentcy between the reason and the conclusion in GMs post.
If there is does your post in anyway make it clearer?

[AxleGreaser]

@Slaandar

I don't really see much in your case.

If you want me to explain specific point(s) which you think are particularly good let me know

yes there was a lot of case

So we wlll break it down as you did Shiro.

let try a tight (short to read) recent bit

---

---

(Day 1: Point 1a)

Garmr: has before this point in the game claimed I am 85% likely to flip scum (2788)
swapped his vote onto and even stronger scum read 2941
So according to Garmr, he has found two scum and is > 85% confident both will flip scum (claims Boon > Axle == 85% scum)

Read the posts below, try and believe Garmr thinks he is talking to Axle, his really strong 85% scum read...

Bullshit

Garmnr feels smells and posts like person who knows I am town.
(If he was claiming I was town!Axle vs Garmr the posts would make sense.)
His post make no sense as towny thoughts.
he has since offered no explantion...
Indeed he went to ground...

Hmmm

After this more reasons appeared as Garma reacted to the case.

3262 Garmr claims Axles case is bad, no one takes seriously, not worth discussing
3263 I ask why his post feels like he knows I am town. (read it) (Garmr saying Axle 85% scum is here 2788)

3264 Garmr Claims: Axle is clogging up the thread.
3265 If Axle is 85% scum then Axle am generating interactions for when Axle flips sometime (thats a good thing yeah?)

3267 Garmr Claims: Axle is no fun. Garmr doesnt mind being a wagon
3269 3271 These answer bits of 3267 (read them if you found 3267 persuasive.)

3274 Is for me very strong point. I see Garmr being happy to be wagoned by a guy he 85% scum reads to be clearly not towny.

Since his Boonskiies vote,
What exactly is Garmr doing about getting his even stronger scum read Boonskiies lynched?

I see no reasonable chance of Garmr being town here.

I have also recently posted on GM and Nero. Comment or not at this time at your choice.

[AxleGreaser]

You asked: " what is your read on Thor?" << does not ask for a reason (a because)

and I told you, and I never stated a reason at all.

Actually I asked several times for anyone with a townread on Thor to explain it to me. (see 2855, 2919 below)
Rereading your post in this light, it makes more sense.

Well as you asked the question if you had read my post in the first place, no where does it even vaguely indicate what you claimed I said.

On that note,

please explain your townlean on Thor

.

Other reasons, Thor is towny.
Your case is crap.

No one except Thor really drove a lynch wagon (got many votes.) The Anen wagon looks scummy as fuck to me.
If thor is not town, where the hell was town on D1? and what were they doing?

PoE, Thor is town.

Then there is that your case is bad.

Please state your reasoning for wanting to lynch Thor.

2800 I point out Thor's hypocrisy with his Shiro case and question his discomfort with Slandaar's Shiro vote

Hypocrisy is scummy Now?

In that case your scum for not wanting to scum read TSO for it yesterday?

(I Showed TSO hypocrisy...)

2852 I point out that Thor took very easy actions for all of D1, never taking a stance he couldn't go back on with ease

Well there was lynching PereV thats pretty hard to go back on.
Your Thor is scum because tone read, is however I take it firm non retractable position to take?
Although you claim that is the case you dont give any examples to demonstrate your point there.

2855 I point out that the basis for literally every single read Thor provided was "gut" and mention that the multiball thing was bullshit

For comparison: Please show me your list of stronger reads that came with reasons?

Spoiler: my probably incomplete list of (much weaker) GM reads

518 Early thin vote for

trading vanity for vanity

Vote: Thor

maybe i'm crazy

crazy

like, i'm not exactly convinced pere's not scum but i find you quite a lot more so

wishy washy

i don't know why you think i'm going to be particularly coherent on this atm

claims of self to be incoherent
no really GM
show me your filter as side by side comparison to Thor to really show me how a towny would have strong stances with reasons on D1 in this game.

Bullshit

at this point the tags got messed up so I deleted them continued in next post.

Also that last point is important IMO.

GM your case largely rest on your description of Thors reads D1.

Yours by comparison were way worse. Self vote pls?

[AxleGreaser]

2857 Thor doesn't hide as Town.

I dont see Thor hiding in this game.
I did see you hiding D1.
Now on D2 you claim Thors reads were crap and weak sauce D1.

@Goodmorning

How come you could not and did not make that claim on D1?

2892 [...ignored by Axle...]

HOW MUCH MORE ATTENTION-GRABBING DO I HAVE TO MAKE THIS:

IS ANYONE AT ALL TOWNREADING THOR RIGHT NOW?

FUCKING EXPLAIN IT

.

I tend to ignore self agrandising extra large font post in all caps.... especially At everyone posts (they are obviously for show?)
I also chose not to answer your question at that time. 2919 (it was not important to my scum hunting)
More recently when you directly misrepresented what I said that was different matter. (as no reasonable reading of my post produced what you claim it meant)(AKA actual fakery/misrep)

3104

D1 what I had was a tone-based read.
D2, looking back, Thor didn't say anything he couldn't take back, only pushed Pere,

So you are claiming that when you were voting Thor D1, you didnt look back at his filter? But you did look back at his filter D2?

What were you doing to try and get your scum read lynched D1, if you were not looking at his filter?

Can you please stop

pretending

to have read my posts, Axle?

pretending stuck out by Axle.

Ok I wont pretend (and at no time did i pretend) i will state things explicitly
I have as matter of course read every word in every post each time I get to the thread.
Then I focus on the the parts important to me.
I leave some parts of the thread to the other townies to deal with. (You vs Thor was one of those) Other townies would work out which if either was currently being scummy.
I was currently busy chasing the guy i actually want lynched, being distracted from that is way scum protect team mates so I wasn't going to be.

You directly misrepresented my opinions.... and statements... and did so on matter of substance
You also did so by reading stuff into a post that I don't a towny reasonably could have.

on D1 you claimed it was all tone and feels and refused to provide details.
I believe on D2 all of sudden you have started being able to provide details based on D1 posts.

Yup. The magic of hindsight.

When on D1 you reread his posts the magic of hindsight was already there....
or are you saying you need him to flip Town PereV before you could fit him up for it on D2?

I did mention that I felt he had a certain whingey quality as Scum that he lacked as Town, but other than Thor I don't think anyone looked at the games I brought up.

You also did not mention how committed or strong the reasons for his reads were, and failed to provide stronger better reasoned out reads yourself.

The D1 lynch mislynched one townie who was being wagoned against another(Anen)
and you rather conveniently were not pushing your wagon with reason so it didnt go anywhere.

It was bigger than the Anen wagon for a while iirc, not that it really matters. You're saying Scum-me would fake-push a 3rd townie when two easy marks were already on the block?

Indeed it was at some times, you however wer not driving it and could easily have weaseled out of any accountability as all you had were tone reads.
Yep I am saying that scum you would push a third towny so as not to be on either of the PereV or Anen wagons.
I am especially saying that as I am strongly convinced Garmr is scum and was D1 strongly convinced TSO was good scummy lynch (his D2 status is trickier to describe)
So yes you could have good reason to not also be on the Anen mislynch. Especially with the heat it was getting and it being a low hanging fruit lynch.
However, soft pushing Thor, with reasonless suspicion was plausible place for you to hide.

I call BS, explain your case
explain why on D2 it has details and on D1, you didnt have any

Reading D1 page-by-page is a lot different than reading D1 as a whole, especially in a Large. It's really easy to get swamped in the RIGHT NOW.
My failing in case-making was a failure to look at the bigger picture.

So you are claiming to never have gone back and reread D1 except in page by page?

Not even on your biggest, scum reads ISO, the guy you claim to have been trying to get lynched?

Harking back to this for sec.

Can you please stop

pretending

to have read my posts, Axle?

How about you stop

pretending

to have actually been trying to get Thor lynched D1.
You claim not to have gone back and re read it on D1.
Then On D2 noticed hey all those reads (GM claims)dont have reasons... (or some such BS...see above)

[AxleGreaser]

No one except Thor really drove a lynch wagon (got many votes.) The Anen wagon looks scummy as fuck to me.
If thor is not town, where the hell was town on D1? and what were they doing?

PoE, Thor is town.

So Thor is Town because people listened to him based on his rep and there's a lazy Town this game?
And that's not really PoE...?

I am saying that if Thor is scum, then in fact no townies pushed any lynches to anywhere near majority in all of D1....
No players looked townier.

(yeah it a brand new way of using the term)(based on whether players pushed wagons with a towny level of commitment or not Thor was town because no one else was town)
(sorry I like twisted logic) (I dont recall a game where the only guy that was flat out pushing wagon and getting anywhere, with anything like reasons, was scum lynching town.)
(I had reasons (IMO) but got nowhere as pretty much everyone said I didnt)

Then there is that your case is bad.

Hypocrisy is scummy Now?

It can be.

So can typing the word 'the' ,scum do it all the time (I checked) (actually I didnt bother)

I note you fail to provide method for deciding when it is. (tag mess agin) (continued in next)

[AxleGreaser]

At any rate, Axle appears to have decided that only about half of what I posted was worth responding to and the rest was worth ignoring. As I've already responded to about half his responses, I think I'll ignore the rest.

BULLSHIT

as already indicated the tags messed up I stopped half way through....

[AxleGreaser]

At any rate,

Axle appears to have decided that only about

half

of what I posted was worth responding to

and the rest was worth ignoring.

As I've already responded to about

half

his responses, I think I'll ignore the rest.

BULLSHIT

as already indicated the tags messed up I stopped

half

way through....

I was referring to the second

half

, in which you omitted discussion of

many

of my finer points and used the word ignore at least twice before I stopped counting/caring.

I've decided that, for the sake of my sanity, I'm going to return to my D1 stance on you, which is roughly a state of not bothering to read your posts. Perhaps shot # whichever you aren't gets wise to the fact that there doesn't appear to be any real trajectory in the posts of yours I have bothered to read and you go away tonight. Either way, I can't be bothered.

That is

SCUMMY BULLSHIT

So you are specifically equating me
politely indicating specific explicit points ignored with you saying casually "

As I've already responded to about half his responses, I think I'll ignore the rest.

"

and

TOTALLY

exaggerating and misrepresenting what I had done by saying

"Axle appears to have decided that

only about half

of what I posted was worth responding to "

Smurf off, (and i dont care about your alignment) for that aspect of this post.

That is however as

scummy

as pretty much anything

many

is untrue:

and

i tried hard to flag every specific one in case you wanted to claim they where where the meat of your 'case' was

(@thread the post where GM says I ignored stuff is here 3402. Go see for yourself what exaggerated false BS this is.)

[AxleGreaser]

@Thread GM claims

2855 I point out that the basis for literally every single read Thor provided was "gut" and mention that the multiball thing was bullshit

I challenged

For comparison: Please show me your list of stronger reads that came with reasons?

Spoiler: my probably incomplete list of (much weaker) GM reads

518 Early thin vote for

trading vanity for vanity

Vote: Thor

maybe i'm crazy

crazy

like, i'm not exactly convinced pere's not scum but i find you quite a lot more so

wishy washy

i don't know why you think i'm going to be particularly coherent on this atm

claims of self to be incoherent
no really GM
show me your filter as side by side comparison to Thor to really show me how a towny would have strong stances with reasons on D1 in this game.

Bullshit

GM replied but messed up the quotes... (conveniently?)

I'm not going back through my ISO as I just had to do so to point out all the posts of mine that you didn't read. Off the top of my head I was pretty clear on

Csareo,

TSO,

dave

, maybe Tier? Had some nice points on Slandaar and Fonz too. Explained And you can watch my Muffin read change in real time, even if I don't quote any specific posts of his to respond to. Besides which I made clear that if anyone had any questions about anyone then all they had to do was ask and they should receive.

Spoiler: Casero

read appears here 1616 "Players who are Town: GrayFoxxx," and you do say "If you'd like an explanation of one of these and I haven't already given it, you're welcome to ask."
and dave did

Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.

Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

Not from Gray, no. With Csareo it was pretty much cumulative answers to my questions, but I'll go back through tomorrow and pull some quotes for him while I'm doing the Fonz thing for Thor.

That is not an explanation and you were asked. (thats a deniable excuse. later you can just claim you reread again and changed your mind...)
When dave pressed harder you explicitly state you cant point to the actual reasons.
Whether you do or dont choose to make some up now wont be the point, the point is on D1 you did not make any supported (by reasons) read on Csaero

Indeed Dave asked

Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.

so I take no there were no concrete things you could point to and when asked instead of offering an answer you simply fobbed him off.

That is the exact opposite of your claim

conclusion: When challenged for concrete reason for Csaero read, stated didnt have any at the time,

When challenged to show any concrete reasons for any read, even though Gm has just offered to ...
doesnt answer.

not only doesnt GM answer he does this

Yeahhhhhhh, "pretend" wasn't in there because I wanted you to explain; if I had I'd have asked you to.
"Pretend" was in there because I was trying not to get annoyed.
"Was" is in the previous sentence because now I am annoyed.

Spoiler: csaero part2 (dodging Slaandar)

2438
Not only have you not explained what part of rereading, made him town when explicitly asked.
It now transpires that this magic read appears when, you reread but don’t tell anyone and never explain even when asked?

Spoiler: TSO

1786

Goodmorning, 399 – can you explain your town read on TSO?

Like I said, for me it's mainly the overall impression I get from his posts. It's incredibly non-specific - a dash of tone here, a bit of meta there.

Yes at one point GM provides meta reason GM claims TSO is town.

As TSO was my major D1 scum read I am less than impressed.

Spoiler: Dave

IGMEO: dave

no reasons

dave is taking safe stances,

vague (non specific)

Players who may be Town: Cho, dave,

town read from where?
Well thats not strong

So basically no, GM has been very evasive about the specific reasons for his reads

HOWEVER all that would be (possibly) irrelevant

If Gm had been clear about why he wanted his D1 scum read lynched...

Of all the people a player ought be clear about it is be clear about the guy you want lynched

On that Gm has this amazingly non committal pile of hoo ha

On Thor is mostly a tone-based read as I think I've made clear. I don't expect anyone to believe/follow me and I'm fine with that (to all others who asked).

So GM claim that Thor was being wishy washy is comparatively utter bollocks.

PS(went a bit click mad I may have auto corrected some spelling in quotes (dunno))

[AxleGreaser]

Thors null on my reads list at the moment

but I do think that boon is genuinely scum of some kind.

So you finally seeing that shiro is town slaandar that's good. But If you have a look back didn't you notice something if you look back at thors play on a whole. Thors plays here reminds me of that game where me and him were scum buddies. His vote on shiro was bad(so were your reasoning on shiro) and the iza vote is bad.

VOTE: thor

We can deal with boon or axle tomorrow.

Thor needs out first

.

OH look my scum read claimed scum in the thread.

[AxleGreaser]

I don't think Shiro is town.

I agree its quite possible Shiro is not.
but not todays lynch.

Shiro, if Shiro is town ought play the game and try to find scum.

(read this reply as if it was post #3422.5... )
what comes after that is yet to be evaluated or even played out

[AxleGreaser]

@Garmr Axl just pointed a big contradiction. Care to explain why you believe a null read needs out now over people you are certain are scum ?

If you were paying attention to what I was writing you would note that i said i hated thor day 2 play and would look into it more. Well I looked into and think his scum

Thors plays here reminds me of that game where me and him were scum buddies.

This pretty much implies I'm scum reading him I thought it was obvious.

Indeed it was both obvious and convenient, does it come with reasons?
especially ones that show Thor's scum motivation

[AxleGreaser]

yes with those reasons please be sure to show how you reached the following conclusions.

Thor

is scummier than

Boonskiies

, who is scummier than me(

Axle

) who you already set at

85% likely to flip scum (AKA really 1v1 sure)

also why its so important to Flip Thor today.

Thor needs out first.

All that from a reread... took you from Null read to biggest scum read...

Utter implausible rubbish

I think this is called flailing

[AxleGreaser]

I have had 7 hours to think about this shiro to think about this shiro and I have had constantly declining opinion of thor since the start of day 2.

and while those reasons are claimed to be so fresh in your mind. Details please.

Now

[AxleGreaser]

I pushed boon but everyone buying his Village idiot routine*

As you

claim

to have it fresh in your mind,

it shouldnt take long.

When you are done explaining the

specific

basis of your now strong scum read on Thor,

you can explain when and how you have been pushing Boon since voting him.
For your convenience i have collected all the post I found from you at Boon. (Its reply to him voting you)

Spoiler: Garmr Not pushing boon

I claimed my role at not even at L-2, how is that a panic claim? Also, it's not similar to the one I did my tracker fake claim, as I claimed that one day 1, in a game where I was

much

more active than I was here. If I was scum for one of my first times, don't you think I'd be far more interested in this game than I was day 1? Also, it got to the point where I wasn't going to draw a NK anymore , so me claiming does nothing to change that.

Also, Gamr is sprouting fluff. We should lynch him. Or Iz.

VOTE: Gamr

No spouting fluff would be irrelevant to the current game state. What you meant to say is you don't agree with my points and think i'm saying them because you think that's what a scum me would say.

[AxleGreaser]

LOL
What I want is the reason for voting your biggest scum read while they are fresh in your mind....
and all you have is whine in front of me?

@gm I just ignore axle now for my sanities sake.

[AxleGreaser]

tbh the percentages are bs I just say that to inflame my ego. But things that I thought were scummy The iz vote,the shiro push,the quantity of quality argument, the way he way the he defended the people on the wagon and the fact I'm losing interest in this game.

yes the percentages are just an expression of very strong scum read.

You claimed 85% when you wanted to be able to justify a 1v1
So what you mean in pratical term is read

so strong

that you wanted to have 1v1 and commit town to lynching you (who you claim to know are town) or your read.

and you are

even more sure

than that, that Boon is scum

and now on the basis of your reasons you are

even more sure

than that again that Thor is scum?

We can deal with boon or axle tomorrow. Thor needs out first.

BTW you list of reasons was slightly longer before.

Thors plays here reminds me of that game where me and him were scum buddies. His vote on shiro was bad(so were your reasoning on shiro) and the iza vote is bad.

@Garmr

Provide the actual; details of what posts you read in the thread, and how when you re-analysed it recently, you now found it was even scummier than you first thought.

What were these new insights? specifically.

[AxleGreaser]

I'm fine if everyone one shifts their votes on me if they promise to lynch axle after I flip town.

Surely you mean Boonskiies as he is an even stronger scum read, as you voted him(Boon) over me(Axle)?

and then surely you mean, Thor as you just voted him over either of us(Boon/Axle)?

and if you really wanted me(Axle) or Boon lynched surely you would have been identifying scummy things we did since you voted us and pointing them out too?

but I did not really see you do that.
Why not?

Surely you'd be excited to play this game, according to you, you claim to have strong scum reads (with reasons) on 3 of the scum team.

The BS and WIFOM is strong in this one.

(pedit: WP Shiro)

[AxleGreaser]

i'm town but I really don't want to play this game and I

can't be bothered hunting

. SO going to let you guys if you want to mislynch me or for me to replace out.

cant be bothered hunting?

You claim, you were rereading, and to have just caught 3-4 scum ? (but wont post specifics) (Thor, Boon, Axle + Scripten?)
How did you do that without bothering hunting?

So much that you want a death bed bargain to lynch the third scummiest of them?

and even though you want

Thor out first

they have to lynch me tomorrow if you get lynched today?

(the lame card left on the floor)

[AxleGreaser]

well, his thought process does make serious sense for town that is replacing out.

So you are taking a replace out as alignment indicative?
He cant be pissed that he is caught?

and he is running away without answering your questions because?

and he was forced as shit (your words) earlier because...?

[AxleGreaser]

Let's just go for thor.

As explained just before Garmr swapped to thor and created a kerfuffle.

I have serious problems with GoodMornign's Thor case.

They start at 3381.

@Goodmorning
[...]
on D1 you claimed it was all tone and feels and

refused

to provide details.
I believe on D2 all of sudden you have started being able to provide details based on D1 posts.

The D1 lynch mislynched one townie who was being wagoned against another(Anen)
and you rather conveniently were not pushing your wagon with reason so it didnt go anywhere.

Now on D2, all of sudden you have reasons?

I call BS, explain your case
explain why on D2 it has details and on D1, you didnt have any

He replied 3386 3400
I responded to him,.. 3397 3402 3406

he again misrepresented my posts, severly 3415 and played the.... Oh I am so fed up card.

I've decided that, for the sake of my sanity, [....] postEither way, I can't be bothered.

I can only imagine making up lies/misreps about what people said and did is tiring.

Problems with GMS read/case in nutshell

On D1 no case, just some feel/tone read BS.
On D2 all of sudden rereading Thor, lets him see all sorts of stuff such as no firm stances according to GM
(Gms own filter for comparison is full of non statements and aclear reluctance to provide actual reasons related to the thread for his reads)
GM is accusing Thor of being scum for doing what GM has done in spades in this game.
3419 In this post i went through and evaluated if GMs claim to have posted substantive stuff on those people (

Csareo

,

TSO

, dave) is true, its crap.

but even if he had, if he was town the person he should have already thoroughly re read on D1 was his top

scum

red Thor.

That he claims on D1 to only have tone reads yet goes back on D2 and finds all this other scummy stuff, is total BS.
He was also very reluctant to give specifics even when asked this pointedly 1632.

One of the best reasons not to Lynch Thor is GM wants to, for terrible implausibly derived reasons.

[AxleGreaser]

And he seems like one of those people who enjoys drawing scum and love to manipulate up to the final moment, which is not replacing out.

Why do you have this belief?

Because he said so (likes to draw scum) and I believe others have confirmed this.

and he likes to be cornered?

or he likes to draw scum and win? and reinforce this self image?

Because of that I enjoy scum games more and if you look into my past scum games you can see the effort and time I put into each masterpiece. I'm currently trying to improve my town game

since I feel like I mastered scum

and tbh to me it looks like you have town mindset playing a scum game.

[AxleGreaser]

Why has this game descended into petty bullshit? Why do so few people actually seem to be scumhunting? Why is Thor not dead yet?

So GM when I checked the veracity of 3400 "I'm not going back through my ISO as I just had to do so to point out all the posts of mine that you didn't read. Off the top of my head I was pretty clear on Csareo, TSO, dave, maybe Tier"

I failed to find you giving strong good reads on those people even when asked.

in 1836 you were so overly sensitive about someone(dave) finding you scummy for maybe not having reasons for your reads... and asking for them that you were

annoyed

.

Yeahhhhhhh, "pretend" wasn't in there because I wanted you to explain; if I had I'd have asked you to.
"Pretend" was in there because I was trying not to get

annoyed

.
"Was" is in the previous sentence because now I am

annoyed

.

It wasnt until Slaandar hounded you near the end of D1, we get the vague description of how you decided on your Csareo read.

I reread, what else? Scummy doesn't have to mean Scum.

and there is still no answer to this question

Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

That puts lie to this claim

Besides which I made clear that if anyone had any questions about anyone then all they had to do was ask and they should receive.

Dave asked what he received was your

annoyance

and no real answer.

[AxleGreaser]

eeek slightly mis psoke when i looked you did sometimes provide some basis for TSO as i described in 3419

[AxleGreaser]

PSA

Spoiler: The vote posts... if i got them all

previous vote count link 3331

VOTE: Thor

VOTE: thor

Well, that was a lot to catch up to.

I saw Thor saying things about

how many times

Anen was talked about vs how many times PV was talked about. How many times is clearly a quantity question, and Muffin responded with a quantity answer. Thor then said it's stupid to just count the mentions. Muffin then said, quite reasonably I would observe, that it's not just the quantity of the mentions that Thor was concerned about, but the

quality

. I totally expected Thor to reply that quality of mention / conversation was exactly what he was talking about, but Thor's reply was about Muffin's question being stupid, the measurement isn't either quality or quantity.

Then after 2-3 pages, Thor comes back and says it is indeed about the quality of the conversation. Though he still refuses to use that word to describe it, the words he does use still boil down to quality.

My take away from this event are:
1. Thor wants to make up a reason on Shiro
2. Thor's response to Muffin was to try to discredit him.

VOTE: Thor

Garmr: has before this point in the game claimed I am 85% likely to flip scum (2788)
swapped his vote onto and even stronger scum read 2941
So according to Garmr, he has found two scum and is > 85% confident both will flip scum (claims Boon > Axle == 85% scum)

The number is arbitrary it is just there to be representative of him being quite confident in each being scum.

Regarding calling your case bad instead of fabricated etc it literally means nothing. I really don't see anything in that at all; I have said my scumread's arguments/cases are bad in the past well I probably use the word terrible mostly but it's the same thing.

The wagon thing is actually really good.



I didn't really 'get' what you were saying prior. Kinda read it and went ugh nothing wrong with saying that and moved on. Maybe the focus on it made me pay the extra attention... Bite sized chunks work wonders.

You have my axe good sir.

VOTE: Garmr

I will respond to all this GM stuff later...

So you finally seeing that shiro is town slaandar that's good. But If you have a look back didn't you notice something if you look back at thors play on a whole. Thors plays here reminds me of that game where me and him were scum buddies. His vote on shiro was bad(so were your reasoning on shiro) and the iza vote is bad.

VOTE: thor

We can deal with boon or axle tomorrow. Thor needs out first.

i'm town but I really don't want to play this game and I can't be bothered hunting. SO going to let you guys if you want to mislynch me or for me to replace out.

This...This is pure AtE BS

Vote:Garmr

@Mod - I would love to get a vote count to showcase the current voters on me, thank you.

recently changed wagons (and when)

[7]

Thor665:

goodmorning, TierShift, Izariael 3338 reinoe 3360 Flubbernugget 3387 davesaz 3418 garmr
[4]Garmr: Scripten, AxleGreaser 3416 Slaandar 3450 Shiro

[AxleGreaser]

and not a thing scum would have insider knowledge of).

There is one way scum!Garmr would

I feel like his a sk because he feels the need to announce the fact his two shot bullet proof to discourage who ever is shooting from shooting him again.

If there were 3 shots last night and scum shot Boon, then shooting him again makes sense and is a slip.

Either that or its fsck up like Thor and the Shiro vote change saga, ooops no it didn't.

What is not obvious is reason to have assumed hed been shot once already as per the above.

, I hate Tier attacking Garmr over this - SK is both a reasonably obvious thing for town to consider from a VI player making that specific claim

[AxleGreaser]

@Fonz
I dont think there are implied questions you are asking me unanswered. If there are just ask, I am up to just chasing scummiest reads until at least one scum flips.

[AxleGreaser]

and not a thing scum would have insider knowledge of).

There is one way scum!Garmr would

I feel like his a sk because he feels the need to announce the fact his two shot bullet proof to discourage who ever is shooting from shooting him again.

If there were 3 shots last night and scum shot Boon, then shooting him again makes sense and is a slip.

Either that or its fsck up like Thor and the Shiro vote change saga, ooops no it didn't.

What is not obvious is reason to have assumed hed been shot once already as per the above.

, I hate Tier attacking Garmr over this - SK is both a reasonably obvious thing for town to consider from a VI player making that specific claim

That's a lot of weight to put on the word 'again.' I don't personally like 'Slip' arguments. I find they're from scum more often than on scum. It seems to me more likely Garmr was assuming that Boon would be told if he were shot once, not that garmr is scum who wants to wave a big 'I'm scum' flag.

No need to be assuming what notifications Garmr says he thinks (as I asked just after the "shoot again" statement)

@Anyone
Odd question. If a two shot BP gets shot, does he get notified on this forum?

Depends on the mod I think.

I don't like putting a lot of weight in slips either, for similar reasons
However to interpret someone reading too much into it (when lots of townies I have seen do read lots into slips)
so you can hate tier over doing that, can you scum read it.

Its one thing to assume boon would be told if he was shot, but its another to assume he was shot at all.

also and separately.
You can "hate" Tier for that but does it add evidence that makes him scummy?

[AxleGreaser]

just read back my stuttering stuttering in the last post.
I think I am too tired gnight all. (actually good morning)

[AxleGreaser]

I'd pl this slot. His case on PV yesterday was all sorts of horrible.

@Nero

This looks rather a lot like you are claiming scum. Are you claiming scum?

You say today on D2, "His(Thors) case on PV yesterday was all sorts of horrible."

Please show me where on D1 you pointed out that all sorts of horrible?

I dont remember you doing that, and i just I looked and i didnt see you do that.

If it was all sorts of horrible, where were you ?

Well, since we are ignoring the fact that I didn't vote PV which should tell you that I didn't like the PV case....

here I state that Thors PV case doesn't sway me.

Ok now you claim it was all kinds of "horrible"

yesterday you described it as merely

your case on PV is that:
he has bad reads
you feel he lied to you
and he thought you were scummy for bringing up MB?

My case is more eloquent, but, yes, you have functionally simplified it down - though I think the third and the first point are the same point - as the only read I cited as bad enough to be scummy is the read involving multiball, and I have no other scumtell associated with the multiball point other than inability to defend his belief in it being scummy. I also would note the lie is one I said he directed at town in general, not me in particular, though I will agree I was amongst those he lied to.

ok well...

TBH that case doesn't sway me but ok

, lets say that I'm wrong and PV is scum. Who are the non PV scum in this game?

Your claim today about that case in no way matches the views you expressed yesterday.
You are making stuff up to suit your needs.

If it was all sorts of horrible, where were you ?

[AxleGreaser]

If you check out the first post I was talking to Axle in, it's all there.

If you then check out the responses you will see my issues with it and Good mornings play in general.

here for example is a sample of Goodmornings D1 case on Thor

I can't speak of any games with Anen, no (to all who asked).

On Thor is mostly a tone-based read as I think I've made clear. I don't expect anyone to believe/follow me and I'm fine with that (to all others who asked).

I continue my reaction test. I begin to despair of it working.

no substance at all, nothing that cant be walked away from (whats the case on Thor again? sheesh.)

at that time GM could find no specific wrong in Thors filter, (there was wagon on town PereV at the time)

today.... Yep suddenly alittle bit of a re read and GM has all kinds of things to say about D1 and Thor.

convenient.

[AxleGreaser]

How is being this fucking opaque pro town

Well if thats (opaque) a criteria for you.

please explain how much of problem you have with GM being so opaque about his reads?

see 3419

or why all that opaqueness is Ok from GM.
Indeed Id characterise the D1 GM as evasive, not just opaque.

evasive = claims this
GM: "Besides which I made clear that if anyone had any questions about anyone then all they had to do was ask and they should receive."
but when asked by Dave for reasons on Csaero/Gray or........ anyone for that matter
gets evasion, and never any reasons for gray.

and BTW nope GM never did dig out the

but I'll go back through tomorrow and pull some quotes for him while I'm doing the Fonz thing for Thor.

[AxleGreaser]

WOAH! I did NOT see that coming.

You are once again using semantics to push a "contradiction". I didn't vote PV, I told Thor straight up that his case didn't sway me. So I didn't use the word "horrible" yesterday, it is functionally the same thing. This is now the second time that you've tried to push something like this. At least its bad town play but to steal a phrase from IZ "there's scum motivation in that."

I dont interpret it that way, and you didnt use it that way.

Claiming Thors case yesterday was all sorts of horrible was i thought clearly you claiming it was so "all kinds of horrible" that you now read Thor as scummy or it.
Indeed that is exactly what you said:

I'd pl this slot. His case on PV yesterday was all sorts of horrible.

So no I am not playing semantic games with the word horrible.

Today you claim Thors case yesterday was so XXXXXX, that you would PL him for it.

yesterday you merely said it didn't sway you.

That is a clear change in position, and a significant reinterpretation of the facts.

It is especially not functionally the same thing at all.

[AxleGreaser]

ok, show me the post where I town read Thor.

I never said that you town read Thor, so why should I show you such a thing. (now who is playing word games to shift ground)

What I said was that you today claiming

Thors case on pereV was so horrible that today you would PL him for it

I'd pl this slot. His case on PV yesterday was all sorts of horrible.

that is not consistent with you merely describing it as a case that did not sway you yesterday. 1295

Yes you were voting him.
Please show where you said it was becuase the case was so much all kinds of horrible that he was even approaching PL lynchable.

In 3383 I already asked you to show me such post, and what you showed me was some weak post saying... you found Thors case did not sway you.

Your position has changed greatly. yet in 3575 you deny that change and accuse me of being scummy for even asking you about it.

You are being rather defensive. Why?
I want to know when your read changed and why. You claim it hasn't.

[AxleGreaser]

yesterday you merely said it didn't sway you.

I was also voting him

and when I asked at 3383 you didnt think that important enough to mention.

I too had to decide between voting PereV and Thor that i voted PereV in the end in no way implies his play was anywhere near scummy enough to be a PL.
It was a least bad lynch vote, and my words and reasons reflected that.

Your D1 words at no point reflect that you now claim Thors case was so bad that it is now PL material. Why not?

[AxleGreaser]

and when I asked at 3383 you didnt think that(voting Thor) important enough to mention.

in your reply at 3518

[AxleGreaser]

Life took over. Can someone give me a quick update on the Thor case?

Well so far my recent posting has found GM and Nero to be bad or scum for their reasoning on the case.
(that is yet to totally solidify)

I have, not found an viable/plausible actual case yet.

There were things I disagreed with about Thors push on Shiro, (but I didn't notice anyone raise my objections)
The objections I saw were lame ducks(not alignment indicative of Shiro). (counting references etcetera)

AND

I thought giving Shiro a bit of push was a fine idea. I even thought it was fine idea to push it with a touch of BS as that gives Shiro the maximum chance to defend, that is if Shiro really knew why Shiro voted PereV for towny reasons.

I am still not sure of my read on Shiro, so some interaction under pressure was a

good thing

^tm

The end.

You could just vote for one of the actually scummy guys, instead.

[AxleGreaser]

Life took over. Can someone give me a quick update on the Thor case?

Also if you say what you know so far that would make it easier.
Also it is a chance for you to look townier if you are.

[AxleGreaser]

yesterday you merely said it didn't sway you.

I was also voting him

and what exactly did your vote ion himD1 signify

TBF, I think Thor is just extremely argumentative.

My vote on him was more me being goofy than anything

but I guess him not explaining his town read on me is rather silly.

So let me get this straight....
you are goofy and vote people who are making D1 cases so horribly bad that on D2 they are PL material

Scummy ground shifting Bullshit

[AxleGreaser]

5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.

@reinoe

First

Please show me where Thor portrayed it as scummy. (He didnt)

Second:

Here 3127 is an argument of Muffiins. (The flipped conf town player)

I claim the argument and the point it makes is crap. (not scummy, it cant be, he flipped town)

Please show how Muffins argument is in anyway good....

Note you didnt actually say it has to be good just not scummy. Merely being Not scummy is irrelevant to working out if the case holds water, so I am assuming you actually meant to say more than that.

[AxleGreaser]

I've only seen her act opaque with Thor because he deserves it.

I think perhaps you had better rethink that he "deserves it" is a reason for play. If everyone got what they "deserved" from other players the game would go straight down the toilet and scum would romp it in.

However even going with that.
(note in the following exchange there is NO thor at all. So Thor cant possibly deserve this as hes not there...)

Davesaz makes fairly(very) reasonable approach requesting information
and GM is about as opaque as it gets.

Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.

Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

Not from Gray, no. With Csareo it was pretty much cumulative answers to my questions, but I'll go back through tomorrow and pull some quotes for him while I'm doing the Fonz thing for Thor.

Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.

and no he didnt go through and get that stuff for dave...

Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.

Explain your reads. I don't listen to meta, I lynch the players who rely too much on it. Because only scum don't explain their reads.
Clear enough for you?

Yeahhhhhhh, "pretend" wasn't in there because I wanted you to explain; if I had I'd have asked you to.
"Pretend" was in there because I was trying not to get annoyed.
"Was" is in the previous sentence because now I

am

annoyed.

what he did get was annoyed.

There now you have seen her being opaque with davesaz.
Go back and read the exachnage in thread in complete context.
Did Dave deserve an answer?

Where as GM's claim

If you'd like an explanation of one of these and I haven't already given it, you're welcome to ask.

turned out to be fiction / good PR.
not genuine transparency.

[AxleGreaser]

5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.

@reinoe

First

Please show me where Thor portrayed it as scummy. (He didnt)

Axle, did you miss this?

It is scummy, stupid, and annoying.

Vote: muffin

Thor is very clearly indicating that he found it scummy.

nah more didn't think about them because this statement

5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.

is in the present tense and is a claim about now.

Reinoe appears to me to be appealing to the authority of a flipped towny.
Saying the case cant be scum because a flipped towny agreed with with it ...
Hey flipped PereV thought Thor might be scum too, but thats irrelevant as I didnt like his argument either.

Reinoe needs to justify the argument not the people who supported it when they were alive in the game.

[AxleGreaser]

I'm going to go on record and state that none of those are contradictions.

they do look little like scum unravelling. Seeing writing on the wall.

PSA:
(note: I dont have experience with this replace out BS. I dont read it, I simply excise it from the my game thread. In my mind I treat in thread replace me out AtE, as public PMs and none of my business.
So i have no read on the replace out request. I believe happened, only because and when I saw this http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6370829

I am here to play mafia inside the game, not musical chairs.
)

That said I am just fine with others discussing amongst themselves the meaning of a Rep out.
I have no valid (alignment indicative) opinion, at the very least to make one at this time Id need to cross lines that I wont, in evaluating players who are currently not in the game and have no right of reply on what I regard as a personal level.
I am not that obnoxious a bastard.

and by bastard I mean... a good ole

[AxleGreaser]

<... as per previous PSA things that simply, did not happen, in the game I am playing>

fuck it, Aegor, I've been feeling bad about this ever since I did it, so I'll replace back in.

Welcome.
Hey TSO.2 you replaced into a slot I found scummy enough to want to lynch it on D1.

To help you catch up.
For my most recent stance on your predecessor(TSO.1) You might want to look at 3190 and previously 2826

As new to the thread player(in a scummy looking to me slot),
What I'd really like is for you to do something alignment indicative. (either way would be really helpful.)

@TSO

So why, with reference to particular posts, are people scummy (likely to flip scum) and who are they?

<(yeah there is no 4th party either.)>

[AxleGreaser]

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.

and what is your view on the Garmr wagon?

[AxleGreaser]

In this particular situation it also had the subtext of "put up or shut up."

The question was

Hey, there are reads!

I'll take your offer of explanation,

please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.

Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

I know Izariael is in your null pile. Can you explain the null based on material in the thread? Or explain what's missing?

Barring that,

can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

You had

offered

to explain your reads and totally

balked

at the first hurdle.
There is no back up and prove whther or not you could "can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?"

and then you didn't

...

and instead feigned annoyance as an excuse.

Still not seeing how ignoring Daves question was deserved... or consistent with your claimed desire to leave a legacy 2047

[AxleGreaser]

So this Thor quote from MN1517 reminded me of Thor in this game.

To everyone making comments about how I'm not "driving" like you would normally expect me to be.
Take a look at the wagons at the moment.
Figure out which is, by far, leading.
Then ask yourself which one I started - and if you don't think I started it tell me who did.
Then kindly facepalm yourselves for me.

No, you didn't start the Illume wagon. Everyone literally decided to vote Illume for a dumb reason at the same time. It wasn't you leading the wagon and others following you, not at all.

So are you arguing this game is like that one?

[AxleGreaser]

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.

and what is your view on the Garmr wagon?

Don't see the reasons.

err. What do you mean?

not see == says you dont see any reasons for Garmr being scum posted in thread.
not see == you say the ones that are posted dont make sense to you.

[AxleGreaser]

Don't see the reasons.

just in case,
I know GM hasnt posted much in the way of reasons and we were just talking about him, I was asking about your read on Garmr.

Spoiler: GMs reasonless/opaque posts/reads on Garmr

IGMEO: Garmr,

Am I the only one not hugely fond of Garmr's play rn? I don't know what it is though.

Garmr still feels weird to me,

Players I am currently uneasy about: Garmr,

I like this question.

I find that Garmr has affirmed himself out of the uncomfortable list.

Players who are Town: GrayFoxxx, Garmr, TSO, Tier

I didnt look after the hard town read.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP. Players please mentally paste this into the previous post of mine

P-Edit: When I say "concrete," I don't mean running down a list with vague wishy-washiness. Assigning a value to someone is not a concrete stance, it's just a stance. Saying

Garmr

(for instance) is "Townish" -

what does that even mean?

Clearly it means

about as much as all GMs posts on garmr put together.

[AxleGreaser]

The first one is a change of opinion after some major stuff happened as far as the Thor case goes,

Nope

yes Garmr claims, Garmr's Thor read went from, "null town" to "needs out today" scum. on the basis of You pushing a dodgy to him

Shiro case

and a

reread

Thors null on my reads list at the moment

HOW.
Thor has almost FOUR HUNDRED POSTS. HOW DO YOU NOT HAVE A READ FROM THAT.

he was a town read before But his

push on shiro

makes no sense to me and that jump on iz well that was bad. I'm

rereading

all those four hundread posts

to someone way more important to lynch today, than Axle(me)
and on Axle Garmr claimed to be this sure. 2788 "I'm 85 percent sure you are scum which is why I offered the 1v1."

I don't buy it, maybe not a literal contradicition. It certainly not is towny flow of thought. His latter Thor stance does make sense with his claimed former conviction of Boons > Axle = 85%.

he would have to be suddenly very very sure Thor is scum for that to make sense.

perhaps Garmr also thought i might

go away tonight

Perhaps shot # whichever you aren't gets wise to the fact that there doesn't appear to be any real trajectory in the posts of yours I have bothered to read and you

go away tonight

.

[AxleGreaser]

4) Axxle claims that Thor never called the case scummy which is a lie at worst and an oversight at best.

Nope i never claimed that, I said your statement was about the present tense.
That is certainly not never.

Even if a flipped towny once at some time pushed Thor on a point, and Thor pushed back thinking how it was being done was scummy.

That is no indication that the rest of the case, as in every other point is not being driven by scum.
They probably are not, all being driven by scum, but at least some of the pushes read as very scummy to me.

See my previous posts for actual reasons the pushes are actually scummy, instead of appeals to flipped towny authority.

[AxleGreaser]

I don't buy it, maybe not a literal contradicition. It certainly not is towny flow of thought.

Don't argue semantics in a silly way.
It *isn't* a contradiction.

Now, sure, maybe it was an un-towny flow of thought and if someone wants to argue that - more power to them. But I was told it was a contradiction and was pointing out that it wasn't.

most of us are bad with words. (our bad, see previous muffin argument)
I find there to be contradiction, in that I cant put both thoughts(old stance on Thor vs new) in one townies mind.

Where Contradiction means : "direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency."

The later GarmrThought(thor needs to go first) is inconsistent with Null town read + Shiro push + re-read is now
as i just cant get them to add up to Thor > Boon > 85% scum Axle

I find direct opposition between those two thought when I try to imagine one towny having them both

Ok so I am bad,

Garmr is still scum

[AxleGreaser]

Tonight's episode of America's Funniest

It would be funny if you didnt keep brutally cutting bits out of what i said.
That really does badly misrepresent what i said.

as originally indicated way back before you got excited. I interpreted your claim to be about Thor in the present tense
so I didnt go back and read the whole thread again and check.

[AxleGreaser]

4) Axxle claims that Thor never called the case scummy which is a lie at worst and an oversight at best.

--->Nope i never claimed that,<---

I said your statement was about the present tense.

That is certainly not never.

5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.

@reinoe

First

Please show me where Thor portrayed it as scummy.

--->(He didnt)<---

Axle, did you miss this?

--->It is scummy,<---

stupid, and annoying.

Vote: muffin

Thor is very clearly indicating that he found it scummy.

Tonight's episode of America's Funniest Home videos is titled...

When Whiteknighting a scumbuddy goes wrong: AxleGreaser Edition

Hey look what happens when you dont prune out the parts of the thoughts I said, and selectively quote me
3601 point 5 was a present tense statement about now
I responded to that.

Please stop doing that.

[AxleGreaser]

@dave Thre has been some loud noise, don't forget 3656 + 3657

[AxleGreaser]

You know that thing that people find super scummy? That "hint at a wagon but don't actually push it" thing?

In which case this play of yours yesterday is ... according to you... super scummy.

trading vanity for vanity

Vote: Thor

maybe i'm crazy

On Thor is mostly a tone-based read as I think I've made clear. I don't expect anyone to believe/follow me and I'm fine with that (to all others who asked).

as this second post seems to be rowing it backwards.

[AxleGreaser]

The unmodified and untrimmed post, as evidence.

5. Conftown means that

the case

can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.

@reinoe

First

Please show me where Thor portrayed it as scummy. (He didnt)

Second:

Here 3127 is an argument of Muffiins. (The flipped conf town player)

I claim the argument and the point it makes is crap. (not scummy, it cant be, he flipped town)

Please show how Muffins argument is in anyway good....

Note you didnt actually say it has to be good just not scummy. Merely being Not scummy is irrelevant to working out if the case holds water, so I am assuming you actually meant to say more than that.

The statement in question, with emphasis:
"First Please show me where Thor portrayed

it

as scummy.

(He didnt)

"

It

refers to Muffin's case. You specifically said that Thor did not portray Muffin's case as scummy. Nothing here about

when

. Your post

as written

should be interpreted as "At no time did Thor portray the case as scummy." Reinoe proved that Thor did think Muffin's case was scummy, before flip. That proof is

not

a misrep of you. At most, it is a misinterpretation of your statement, if you really meant that Thor didn't call Muffin's case scummy

after the flip

. But that interpretation is nonsense, because even the stupidest newbscum on the planet wouldn't say someone's case was scummy after they flipped town.

Maybe this is just passionate defense of your honor, but it puts you back on my radar. Especially considering you're reacting to it while not under any kind of duress.

Yep and as soon as i was asked about it, I explained that my question to Reinoe was about reinoes language which is present tense and thus claims Thior is currently claiming that
Here is the relevant part of that post

[deleted ... quotes of previous posts]
nah more didn't think about them because this statement

5. Conftown means that the case can't possibly be as scummy as you're trying to portray it as.

is in the

present tense

and is a claim about now.

Reinoe appears to me to be appealing to the authority of a flipped towny.
Saying the case cant be scum because a flipped towny agreed with with it ...
Hey flipped PereV thought Thor might be scum too, but thats irrelevant as I didnt like his argument either.

Reinoe needs to justify the argument not the people who supported it when they were alive in the game.

As i explained what I had said already, then yes reinoe is misrepping me.
and as it is required for reinoe to cut out the rest of single thought, the bit that comes after the comma, to do so, means it is a misrep from my POV.

and yes reinoe leaning on flipped townie, who had problem with one part of thors play, when all the rest of

the case

is largely made up crap
as i have already shown GMs contribution is.

Then yes reinoes leaning on the flipped towny to justify

the case

was and is bad.
The flipped towny was only ever making points on part of the case.

[AxleGreaser]

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.

and what is your view on the Garmr wagon?

Don't see the reasons.

err. What do you mean?

not see == says you dont see any reasons for Garmr being scum posted in thread.
not see == you say the ones that are posted dont make sense to you.

Don't agree with.

sorry missed this (oops I am on the radar again?)

Ok so which bits, do you not agree with.

[AxleGreaser]

while not under any kind of duress.

I reacted badly to shouting that loudly, trimming my posts mid sentence to change what they say...

(also didnt like the slidy appeal to authority to support the whole case, when muffin only said some stuff
(and i offered to actually argue about the substance of the case and FlippedTown!muffins contribution.
but that is somehow less important than shouting)

Also,
Id like to get my scum read lynched.

Pretty sure that is most of what has been prominently in my head lately.

So yeah, like

Abou Ben Adhem

, put me down on your radar for that please.

[AxleGreaser]

Again more than one person can see the reason for the switch. The reason was there you just dont find it reasonable.

Pretty sure, you would regard me as person that found it reasonable. (I cant remember for sure if I made all the posts i thought about (drafted) where i said as much)

However let me give you the full perspective

Spoiler: For Shiro's eyes only

Note: I often dont have what most players call a read. I have two hypothesis. 1 he scum. 2 hes town.
I have a scum story (what they were doing as they posted and why.
And a town story. When the town story becomes utter fairies at the bottom of the garden BS, I try really hard to get them lynched.

This is the Shiro scum story (actually I sometimes have multiple hypothesis on each side, this is one)(probably over the top)

Following Story spoken from inside scum!Shiro's mind

scum!Shiro. Enters the game late D1. Sweet! There is a lynch running on two townies. (Anen PereV)
(mumble around a bit to look like i am reading) 2174 2235 2404 (Oh look, I can look sincere points)
2420 test the waters on not voting PereV
Now to pick one. Aneninen looks like comparatively he couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.
Indicate intention to Vote Anen.
Ahhh Shit. Axle wants to talk to me and ask questions. 2434
and be specific (damn I was doing so fine just waffling vaguely and not referencing specific posts) 2436
nvm I will just provide descriptive not actual references/links that will discourage anybody fact checking me ever.

Oh well: Answer; Answer, slide and side step. 2436 Be convinced to Vote pereV. 2462
2488 Answer yet more Axle questions... (will this guy ever shut up!)
Oh good he(Axle) went away.
Vote Pere (the path of least resistance)

EOD1

Bonus points: posts dont reference specific things in the thread even though they were just read. Doesn't quote anything much. This makes it easier to waffle(but can be phones and stuff)
look like a obv newbtown (flipped muffins evaluation) (but i wonder... potential scummy point if later indications show otherwise) 3634 Yep shiro is a differentish player D2

I do however have trouble putting your post 3710 into that story (version of scum!Shiro)

@Slander can you tell me how twas scummy ? I still don't bloody get it

hence the not much point in anyone else reading it. However for Shiro yes, there were legitimate reasons to investigate your D1 play and vote.
Apart from anything your filter was short due to replacing, hence the error margin on any read was large.

[AxleGreaser]

Slaandar observing all of Izs scum reads voted pereV (I think)

I worded that badly I knew it wasn't the sole reason, still, all your scumreads voted PV. It's quite an easy way to play - accuse those who voted the mislynch.

I actually find that perfectly acceptable and normal Day 2 play. You don't?

I often do see that as town play. (hunt the flipped townies wagon)

On this occasion however, at least one alternate wagon, Anen, was town and lower hanging fruit. (A safer place to hide and do not much.)
GM had the vanity tone read wagon on you.
I had what largely look to me, like OMGUS or scum on me.
+ ...
(Anen acquired some votes i regarded as reasonable when he fell off the deep end)

So as per average games I don't see a particularly good reason for scum to ride your Thor's PereV wagon.
Scum voting your wagon might easily have been challenged by PereV, for what their own reasons were.

My bet was a significant number of scum wisely stayed off the wagon where it was quiet.

A problem they are having now is explaining their do nothing D1 efforts, with their pushes D2.

I dont like GM saying nope nothing but tone D1 927
yet on D2 he claims to have re-read his D1 scum read and suddenly found all sorts of very specific stuff 3386
He claims

My failing in case-making was a failure to look at the bigger picture.

and yet lots of what he has identified from the Thor filter 2855 is individual statements about individual posts not big picture things at all.
yet on D1

On Thor is mostly a tone-based read as I think I've made clear. I don't expect anyone to believe/follow me and I'm fine with that (to all others who asked).

No details at all,
No desire to get his scum read lynched over anyone else.

[AxleGreaser]

@Axl yea you were one of them.

Thing is even from your scum prespective you find reason behind the vote. Slander stated the post was with no reason yet previously he stated that my voted was made in a way to pass responsibility to Thor(which in itself is a reason)

He also still hasnt answered what GM quoted.

Can I ask something Slander which was your alternative ? Yea u defended Pere the whole time yet u never really presented any wagon for people to vote how is you abstaining to vote to keep your hands clean any better ?

I answered "@Slander can you tell me how twas scummy ? I still don't bloody get it"
So yeah I told how Slaandar or anyone would plausibly consider your play scummy, or clearly worth investigating.

How odd now GM understands that D1 GM play (GM stands in corner doing nothing while PereV gets lynched and GMs biggest scum read skates(according to GM)) is scummy.

I note GM has simply decided to pretend I dont exist 3409 and he did that just after
lying about how many things I had typed ignored after. 3415 lie is in 3405

@Shiro
Please explain simply with links to posts what it is you are finding scummy about Slaandars play.

[AxleGreaser]

@Shiro

please feel free to disregard the request in the previous post for now. I have reconsidered how much I want to know and the legitimacy of your question.
Citing GMs opinion on others people bad (no stances taken with reasons) D1 play tends get a reaction from me
You think you may have a cat by the tail (scum) and are chasing it.
Fine go ahead.

Slander stated the post was with no reason yet previously he stated that my voted was made in a way to pass responsibility to Thor(which in itself is a reason)

Remember my way of thinking about stories, in the "Shiros eyes only" thing. A question to ask yourself. You think there is no town story for these observations of yours?
especially now that you know you did indeed look potentially scummy from the outside for your D1 play.
(Indeed you are still not obv town.)

[AxleGreaser]

Sort of had a vague thought - wonder how many read Axle posts still?

me too.

hopefully all the townies who claim to be trying to get a read on me because they don't just know my alignment.

because if they didn't try and read me,that would be bad or scum.

as would trying to demotivate towny!Axle,
or provide scum!Axle with an excuse not to bother posting. (as no one reads Axles posts). (boo hoo.)

either that or its just be being a jerk, and I dont think GM is just a jerk

[AxleGreaser]

For folks of advancing years like me, it's more like whether we can remember the 1st sentence of an Axle post (or sequence of posts) by the time we reach the end.

in that case, the second sentence of this post contained a question, this time I checked and I dont think you answered.

BTW to hurry things along I would like, actual reasons relating to specific points. The ones you dont agree with.

Is dead on the money. I'm no more convinced that GM is town than Thor. Both are obfuscating, and both act annoyed when people question them about it.

and what is your view on the Garmr wagon?

Don't see the reasons.

err. What do you mean?

not see == says you dont see any reasons for Garmr being scum posted in thread.
not see == you say the ones that are posted dont make sense to you.

Don't agree with.

sorry missed this (oops I am on the radar again?)

Ok so which bits, do you not agree with.

Dave I feel like I am pulling teeth, trying to get this read out of you. Why?

[AxleGreaser]

I do not believe any part of the case on Garmr. How can I make that any plainer?

I don't have a town read on him either.

Well you could have said "any" in a slightly longer sentence in 3654 or 3660

So, on D1 Garmr voted Anen for

stopping Garmrs pressure on Boon

(amongst the rest of this)

Spoiler: Garmrs reason for voting Anen

fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the he

stopped my pressure on boon

at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand. I believe he had to try and discredit because I don't think he was expecting to be questioned on 418 becuase he just labeled me as scum because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game, if he is going to

label me as scum

for my reasoning he should be able to show why it's flawed and then explain the scum motivation behind my post.

Do you beleieve that Anen did stop Garmrs pressure on Boon, and more importantly how do you think Garmr came to that conclusion when Garmr also claimed

fails to do so as my points still actually stand.

How can Garmr both claims Garmrs points still stand and garmr pressure on Boon was stopped by Anen.

Things you may need to comment sensibly are
Garmrs previous pressure on Boon 133 139 189 (GARMR backs off all by himself Garmr[ "

but I guess it answers my question.

" ]
Garmrs most recent pressure on boon (reverses previous "

answers my question interpretation

" (AKA almost no pressure at all)

Anen then posts this 418
Garmr has described that post as

labelling him scum

! Chainsaw for boon, WhiteKnight for Boon
Anens post says "

If you have told that you had voted for Boonskiies because of lurking and producing nothing I would have believed it.

Which I would suggest is at least as striong a reason for pressuring Boon as Garmr's RVS push which he already once said was Ok.

I see no reasonable way town Garmr can reach the conclusions he does.

Scum!Gramr however has his false soft pressure vote on Boon taken away when Boon soft claims.
Scum!Garmr blames Anen.

So you can make it plainer by explaining why you don't regard these actions by Garmr as scummy.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP forgot a link to Garmrs actual pressure Boon post

Garmrs most recent pressure on boon (reverses previous "answers my question interpretation" (AKA almost no pressure at all)

and that pressure is entirely in the third paragraph of 415 and the vote

[AxleGreaser]

Why are you bugging me about it?

I'm the piece of shit who lies about all of his opinions anyway

.

that wasnt/isnt my opinion

I am bugging you about it because

I think Garmr is scummy and i want you to vote him or explain why not.
If your reasons are valid, perhaps I ought hear them and stop voting him too.

On the other hand I am hoping that when you explain them, I can point out why your problems with the wagon are wrong and then we can lynch Scum garmr.

That is the point of the game?

[AxleGreaser]

@Axle - do you think that Garmr wagon has any real traction?

What's your read on Dave, Iz, and GM?

I think it had more votes and traction than any wagon except the one on you appeared to have.
I think it has good basis. That it has had so little impact makes me wonder how i should have explained it.

reads on Dave Iz and GM (you probably wont like the first two)

Spoiler: Dave

Dave has started confusing me.
D1 on D1 I liked, various stuff he wrote. He was a town read.
290 was one reason I wondered about the plausibility of TSO/csaero being one scum/one town,
but "angry young person" felt like a truthful read. Some Scum can make up convenient ones, by squinting. Dave now tells me i should discount that as he plays truthful always.
Stuff like that kept feeling right. (We are of similar age, and hence share some perspectives on life I am guessing.)
If I was less familiar with your(Thors) play Id probably react worse. But TBMK you only said his post were lies(untruths) which is different to calling him a liar in my book.
So I still have trouble with this recent "thing" and do yet have a read adjusted to include that.

I also liked daves question of GM yesterday. It ends here 1839 in a whimper of agreement.? Started at 1624

I think I had seen other people have suspicion of dave, and didnt reject it out of hand but hadn't seen any points that made traction on me.

What has been seeming weird to me today is his relationship to Goodmorning, but when i look for specifics I only found 2809 it seems like its bit of a stake in the ground to completely change directions and the post is to make sure that is there. Feels oddly introspective.
(Its possible my memory is playing tricks and i confused him with (someone else +GM). Oh my.)

leans town (but on very shakey support.)
There are two+one reasons to talk to Dave about my Garmr read. (improve both reads, drive the wagon)

leans town (but on very shakey support.)

Spoiler: Izariel

Hmm this one I am making up as i go. (been in the too hard, not today, basket)
Felt Ok most of D1. Not especially towny or scummy. Scripten push was Ok.
From some points of view, Thor is an annoying obstinate bastard, its hard to fault people for scum reading him. 1569 is pretty good reason to not vote PereV
(applies to D2 aswell Iz voting Thor over PereV 1569)

This push back into thor D2 is also awful to read or get reads out of.
My early conclusion was you and Muffin wee probably TvT for some reason.
That it was all around Shiro did let me improve my read on Shiro, but other than that most of the points by most people were awful. (not alignment indicative)
Then it got argued about and agued about....
There may be opportunistic scum piling on you. And there may well be townies. You wrote you how to read Thor missive for reason, and its that tonwies misread you as scum when your town for reasons...
Choosing on Iz is still in the too hard basket.
There remains for me a real chance your scum too. Even if you are I expect he is right for the wrong reasons...

So if you or someone else wants him to get close to the people I do scum read in scumminess, you will have to explain it to me, probably like i am 5.

leans town (with lots of I dont know)
If someone wants me to vote IZ today they are going to have to explain it and answer lots of questions.

Spoiler: GM

Haven't liked Gm since the tone read stage.
Had a variety of theories (some of them playing town in a way I think is _bad_.
They are fast running out.

Not a fan of people (who claim to be on my team) putting their finger sin their ears and saying la la la
I claim there is risk, scum have to take by talking to me, town ought take it as its less for them.

This post 3872 has IMO no towny redeeming features at all. I don't even care if it is factually correct and he did think that. he either has to >85% believe I am scum or is playing on a different team to me.
Then there are all the posts, highlighting how his reads come out of nowhere (conveniently placed rereads) Is accusing you of being scum for wishy washy reads and the like(Whatever)) when his reads and he knows he's town were basically not much or nothing on D1. Claiming openess and then being anything but isn't real good either.


at least: leans scum

at least: leans scum

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP:
In spoiler on GM

Then there are all the posts

by me where I

highlight how his reads come out of nowhere

[AxleGreaser]

@Dave
So id still like a response to what you dont like about 3799

Also given recent events, regarding truthiness, I hate to say this but

This post seems to be factually inconsistent with

For folks of advancing years like me, it's more like whether we can remember the 1st sentence of an Axle post (or sequence of posts) by the time we reach the end.

this post

I do not believe any part of the case on Garmr. How can I make that any plainer?

I don't have a town read on him either.

for you to disagree with every part of the case, you would have to have read every part of the case,
and remember it

So have you read all of the case and remembered more than the first sentence of an Axle post?
if so what was the pro town point of 3784
or how do you know the case is wrong if you cant remember it?

[AxleGreaser]

gak. EBWOP^EBWOP

EBWOP:
In spoiler on GM

Then there are all the posts

by me where I

highlight how his reads come out of nowhere

also link to post 3872 is wrong its

This post

3872

3782 has IMO no towny redeeming features at all.

[AxleGreaser]

Second, if you're going to attempt to call my reads un-natural because of a perceived block, at least use the final vote count rather than using one that you think illustrates your point best.

Iz the final vote count block is the final vote count block.
However, Slaadars vote count block is at least ALSO important because for your scum reads to all be valid,
then you have to believe that your scum reads clumped up in group like

IZ's View of the game:

Votecount 1.16

[7]

PeregrineV:

Egg

,

Thor665, Scripten

, davesaz,

The Fonz, Boonskiies,

T S O

[4]

Aneninen:

WBOCampfire1104, Muffin, TierShift, Garmr
[4]

Thor665:

goodmorning, Nero Cain, flubbernugget, Izariael
[1]

goodmorning:

Slandaar
[1]

Scripten:

PeregrineV
[1]

Slandaar:

Aneninen
[1]

T S O:

AxleGreaser
[1]

WBOCampire1104:

Grayfoxxxx


[1]

Not Voting:

hephaestus

Red = Scum. Blue also applies to all Red's.
Blue = suspicious vote on PV.

It's just not very believable.

and even though it is not the final one, your reads indicate you are counting that as credible.

@Iz
please explain how credible you find it that your scum reads all clumped like that at any time during the day.

[AxleGreaser]

Catching-up.

Garmr, 360: This was just WTF. What Tha Fukk.

Garmr, 415 – that vote, uhhh. If you have told that you had voted for Boonskiies because of lurking and producing nothing I would have believed it. But, what kind of reasoning was that?


some reads.

Garmr is

FoS

-Scum.

Having trimmed down Aneninen's 418 to a manageable size, I see that there

is

a Garmr scum read there. Doesn't this contradict Axle's statement that Garmr thought Anen was scum reading him but really wasn't?

Nope not at all.
How

big a scum

read is that?
Would you react to it and decide hey no that guy shot gunjning comments about the thread just "labelled me scum"
Most normal proportionate reactions to FoS on this site are more of the form "put your money where your mouth is you mealy mouthed worm...."

So no my case, the one you read forgot and discounted, because i said it, not the facts were wrong, expressly pointed that out. (see 2481 Holy over sensitive soul)

Garmr was being over sensitive about a minor scum read.

@anenien
What's wrong with my reasoning?

Boonskies was the fact he needed to clarify that those were rvs votes.¹ No one really asked him for it and it seems odd as town why you feel the need to say hey this is a rvs vote. He really hasn't done anything to strike me as town either.² Also he dodged the csereo subject and didn't give his thoughts on it which made me feel uncomfortable.³

(1) Boonskiies was just being Boonskiies. I can tell you I've seen that. Even if you haven't come across with him, why is it a scumtell?
(2) So? Hasn't done anything to strike me as town either? This description fits quite a lot of people here.
(3) He has dodged almost every subject so far.

I'm not saying that he's town. He may be scum. But, NOT because of your reasons, Gammrnmhrm.

1.I'm not the only one who thought that was scummy (thor did) and how is that even a defence boon skies is boon skies. Like i said why would town need to clarify themselves.

2.Well if the only thing that strikes me are scum points thenwhy should I think his town?

3.You just made my point even stronger. Dodging subjects is town how?

Is there something abnormal about this interaction? Doesn't look like Garmr has backed down on Boon, and it does look like Anen is trying to get him to back down. Doesn't this contradict Axle's version of this event?

Side note: At this point in time I thought that Anen's mispronouncing of people's names was scummy, and intended to anger them into bad reactions.

Nope Garmr claimed the pressure

was

cut short, you claim Garmr didnt even back down.
Garmr claimed that not backed down (according to you stance) cut his pressure on Boon short

What I found scummy was I didn't like the

he stopped my pressure

on boon at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him.

So as Garmr position was according to you(Dave) not changed you agree Garmr pressure on boon was not cut short by Anen,
and thus that part Garmrs read on Anen was BS?

[AxleGreaser]

Next Axle point, Garmr dropped Boon and switched to Anen because Anen made him drop boon.

Nope that is not my point. (its a little like garmrs claim, but Garmr claimed he stopped the pressure NOT the vote)

So, on D1 Garmr voted Anen for

stopping Garmrs pressure on Boon

(amongst the rest of this)

Spoiler: Garmrs reason for voting Anen

fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the he

stopped my pressure on boon

at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand. I believe he had to try and discredit because I don't think he was expecting to be questioned on 418 becuase he just labeled me as scum because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game, if he is going to

label me as scum

for my reasoning he should be able to show why it's flawed and then explain the scum motivation behind my post.

Do you beleieve that Anen did stop Garmrs pressure on Boon, and more importantly how do you think Garmr came to that conclusion when Garmr also claimed

I asked Garmr why he voted Anen. Garmr explained his reasons. I quoted them then i checked out if they were true (or reasonable).

yes. Garmr voting Garmrs second best read when Garmrs top one claims is a thing to do. (That is why that is not part of my case.)
Why was Anen the second best read and is it a reasonable towny position to hold. (is part of my case) (Garmr gave his reasons they were scummy crap)

Garmr claims Anen cut his Boon pressure short, (see purple text in spoilered quote)
Garmr claims Anen did that by failing to dicredit the points against Boon, which means they cannot even in Garmrs mind have cut the pressure short.
Garmr felt his points on Boon stood and were even strengthened by Anens posts...

yet Garmr contradict-orally also claims that failing to discredit the points made the pressure go away. Utter scummy made up BS.

[... much removed as it does not address the actual case ... (see below for why not)]

It doesn't look like

Anen "made" Garmr switch

. But I must say that if I were in Garmr's shoes at this point I might think that Anen "facilitated" the switch by becoming a better target than Boon. A contradiction in Axle's theory? Depends on what Garmr said about it later.

and I dont think Garmr or I suggested at anytime that

Anen "made" Garmr switch.

Garmr claimed Anen took the pressure off Boon, he didnt.

Garmrs own claims about what Anen did make the belief implausible(scum!Garmr made it up), as Garmr claims Anen strengthend the some points on Boon and failed to discredit others,

(I claim it wa not even a fail to discredit, Anen was checking the validity of the points and offering others instead.)

---

PS. When claiming to argue against point please quote me making it. Ok?

[AxleGreaser]

This post is made in response to the thread state at the time it was made.

So...could you provide me a link to any of those or no?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?s ... r_id=24574

I can provide this link, as it only comes back here?

It has votes, but it has no traction. Currently your wagon mates are Slandaar (who is not pushing the wagon at all) Scripten (who is a lurksack) and Shiro (who, again, is not pushing it at all).

interesting definition
At the end of D1, 2447 You rate yoursefl as "about the only player who tried during Day 1." which tells me you thought your wagon had no traction (no one pushing it except you all day)

Up until recently the only wagon with much traction to day was the one on you. Fortunately I don't regard your wagon having traction as being scum indicative.

Free hint - you lurksacks are sitting on a useless wagon. Why? WHat are you accomplishing down there? Why not vote me or GM?

And if they hop on the GM wagon but font push it that will be just fine and not a waste.

You actually think you are

Thor

(god of thunder), dont you?

Free Hint- I think less of your opinions than you claim to.

[AxleGreaser]

Josh_B replaces Garmr, effective immediately.

Hi Josh,

Do something towny.
I have been scum reading your predecessor in the slot a lot.
If I am wrong its me and him thing, you are not him.

Do something towny.

[AxleGreaser]

@MOD Didnt TSO say he is staying after all ?

@mod

but now he's up to being prodded?

[AxleGreaser]

Did you ever do anything of the sort in a completed game?

trying to come at this a different way.

@Dave

Can you link to a completed game on site where you got angriest?
Doesn't have to be on the same topic. Just pissed off.

[AxleGreaser]

Not liking the case is driven more by not liking the posting style. I have a hard time with trusting the 1000 word essays.

I find evaluating the argument more reliable. Coming from academia(?) Id expect you too as well.

In academia I'd call it "proof by intimidation".

and as you are coming from academia i have trouble believing the literal truth of
Dave: ", it's more like whether we can remember the 1st sentence of an Axle post (or sequence of posts) by the time we reach the end."
which would make it untruth used to make point in a backhanded way.

Dave: "and I'm not the only person who suggested that"
It is also a,

me too discredity tag onto another players post,

who you dont know the alignment of.
do you know the alignment of the other people who suggested it?
Appeal to numbers is bad idea in a game with N scum.

You are aware I assume that I am scum reading GM, and GM is discrediting/discounting me like that, and you are me tooing?

and if I can proof by intimidation you, then that sounds like a claim my ideas have substance.
Not the kind of thing the game needs less of then.

[AxleGreaser]

Welcome to the game Josh!

Sorry you had to replace into a scum slot. Who're your scumbuddies?

I wish I could have been that lucky this game. Fill me in on what's happened so far, please.

Lots of GAK.

Spoiler: long:mainly relevant to JoshB

An Axle centric personally biased view.

Thor ran wagon on PereV day 1.
Not a lot else got real traction. PereV got to be the default Lynch.

Axle joined the game as replacement a little late.
I wondered about why everyone would be(was) standing around with hands in pockets.
Decided the Thor PereV thing was probably town v Town. (or should wait for more info)(dare scum not to kill either)
Looked elsewhere, the Aneninen wagon stood out as a bad scummy place to hide. (bad reasons, low risk easy vote)
GM parked a vanity wagon vote on Thor, and anyone who didn't like PereV as scum tended tended to vote Thor because (mumble mumble)

Lots of gak happened as I tried to prise information(reasons out of TSO).
I never got anywhere on TSO. he just stalled.
End of the day Shiro replaced in, and with the thus necessarily short filter voted PereV.
(after little discussion, that can look scummy if you squint)

PereV flipped town.

Also there are neighborhoods where people talk at night. Some people seem to think that is highly game relevant.

Thor chased Shiro D2. (badly)
Various people attacked thor.
Lots of the argument was rubbish (about how to count things that were not alignment indicative at all anyway.)
At least one person doing that (arguing about rubbish) was muffin (who has been modkilled and flipped town)

I have been chasing Garmr today (your slot)
TSO my D1 better than PereV wagon, is going nowhere because largely TSO is posting nothing.

So I would invite you to decide your slot(my scum #1 read) is scum but that would be silly.

I would suggest looking at my more recent interactions with GM (see below for second reason)(your slot thought I am scum!)
3657 EBWOP in3658 (one of several examples of Gm having reasonless reads) GM

3653 is telling to me, as GM is reaching.

3652 3633 3545

You could also check out the nero interaction ending here 3585 (follow links back to get context from both sides)

Also your slot was 85% certain I am scum, then voted Boon over me, then Thor over him.
So if your slot is indeed town, then you know one towny suspected them.
So you might want to check out if you agree. The above list of links ought help with me. (two for one deal)

Also interacting about the above list of links would be the fastest way to get me to change my mind, if you are town.

@TSO same would probably apply to you.

@Thor hey this guy is perfect candidate for you to try and get to vote your currently tractionless, OMGUS vanity wagon on GM.

[AxleGreaser]

Proof by intimidation is reaching a difficult point, waving your hands, saying some intimidating words, followed by QED. I left that world behind long ago but am still fond of the term. It does not mean you intimidate me.

The age joke was a

joke

.

I fully get the joke about age, I make it regularly.

The other part of the joke, was charcterising my posts as entirely forgettable, I imagine due to lacking in substance or direction or something.

Your point was that Garmr said

Anen

dropped Boon? Garmr

typoed

that post the way I'm reading it. At a minimum something is wrong textually. It doesn't parse...

please state which post you are claiming garmr

typoed

. And what you claim he meant to say.

fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the

he stopped my pressure on boon

at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand. I believe he had to try and discredit because I don't think he was expecting to be questioned on 418 becuase he just labeled me as scum because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game, if he is going to label me as scum for my reasoning he should be able to show why it's flawed and then explain the scum motivation behind my post.

he made the point I am discussing several times.

Spoiler: why i kept checking

Garmr originally claimed boonksiies is not boonskiies is not even a point. And its not aclearly expressed point so I needed to be sure garmr understoiod it and still discounted it. and still claimed he held his views about Anen stopping the pressure on Boon, when no such thing can have happened according to Garmrs own exvaluation.

[AxleGreaser]

Where their vote sits on a wagon is not important. How/Why it got on the wagon is.

largely and mainly I agree that VCA tends to suck. (especially when I see others use it)

In evaluating how and why payers votes got on a wagon, I consider not only what their stated towny reasons are, but also what their plausible scummy ones are.
(somewhere to hide, starting a counter wagon, choosing low hanging fruit, purposefully not choosing low hanging yet scummy fruit... blah blah.. unto WIFOM)

So much of the scum team being committed to the PereV wagon, all near the front, seems like thing I have observed scum to habitually avoid.
Have you seen it happen before much?

Noto only checking does the vote make towny sense, but does it make sense as a scum's vote.
So the how and why a scum vote might have been placed on the wagon is also important.
Pushing the PereV wagon would be risky choice for most scum them all piling on seems wrong headed, and thus unlikely.

True if all the other evidence points that way then sure.

I don't see that (large preponderance of the evidence), not sure how you do.

[AxleGreaser]

So much of the scum team being committed to the PereV wagon, all near the front, seems like thing I have observed scum to habitually avoid.
Have you seen it happen before much?

I have not in my experience here on mafiascum, but I do not find it enough of an impossibility as to discount it completely. Perhaps it would be effective to do so *because* it is so seldom seen (if ever?)

no, I agree not discount it completely (not asking you to use black and white logic and effectively modconfirm it out)
it, the clumping of votes, is however evidence of some weight that your read list is probably/possibly wonky somewhere.

so the point that your scum read list has problem (vs that vote count in 3819) is valid.

[AxleGreaser]

please state which post you are claiming garmr

typoed

. And what you claim he meant to say.

It's the same post you quote below.

I'm claiming I don't know what he really meant to say because it does not parse correctly as English,

or at least there is not a single unambiguous parse for it.

fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the

he stopped my pressure on boon

at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand. I believe he had to try and discredit because I don't think he was expecting to be questioned on 418 becuase he just labeled me as scum because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game, if he is going to label me as scum for my reasoning he should be able to show why it's flawed and then explain the scum motivation behind my post.

he made the point I am discussing several times

.

I assume you're referring strictly to the part in a different color. Let's look at the two sentences.

What I found scummy was I didn't like the

he stopped my pressure on boon

at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand.

Is Garmr trying to quote Anen? Is the part you marked with a color a quote? So Anen said "he (Garmr) stopped my (Anen) pressure on boon"? Or is Garmr missing a word between "like" and "the", such as "I didn't like the way he (Anen) stopped my (Garmr) pressure on boon"?

From the text alone

, it is not clear which of these meanings is the correct one. He and my are both pronouns without referents, as written. It is not even clear to me how you are interpreting it. So instead of quoting it yet again, and coloring a phrase pink, tell me in your own words what you think the whole sentence means. Not just the hilighted part, but the whole sentence. With inserted referents for all the pronouns.

Now, let's take the 2nd sentence. Which case do you think Garmr is referring to here? Garmr's case on Boon? At this point in time, Garmr is not pursuing a case on Boon, and hasn't for about 1000 posts IIRC. Is Garmr pursuing a case on Anen at that time? Could Garmr be complaining about Anen's efforts to defend against Garmr? If that is a possible meaning for this sentence, then it is the more likely meaning, in my opinion.

I claim you are not trying to find out Garmrs alignment.

Spoiler: Some of Garmr previously stated opinions on that part of the game

Basically What I'm saying is you tried to defend against my points with out having a valid counter points in fact you actually strengthened my points in some parts and that comes off as scummy.

I don't like the way Aneninen handled the way I pushed on boonskies by trying to disprove my points yet being unable to, ending up saying I don't agree with you. It just felt like a failed chainsaw attempt for boon.

It's not the fact you didn't agree with me. It's the fact you tried to discredit my points. Which you weren't able to then you just brushed it off passively by saying oh well we don't agree.

It really cut any progress on boonskies short

as he hasn't provided much content. You basically just tried wked him.

It is very clear Garmr is claiming this post 415 is where Garmr votes Boon and applied pressure to Boon
(and it did but only a little due to earlier posts by Garmr 133 139 183 )

he then claims the effect of 418 by Anen was to: GarmrSaid "

stopped my(Garmrs) pressure on Boon

"
he also claims the same post 418 failed to refute his points and they "

still stand

"
If he actually believed the points still stand then Anen can't have also stopped the pressure on Boon.

and I cant see how a towny can reasonably think both thoughts.

Not only that but Anen had in 418 supplied his own extra points on Boon that Anen said be found believable.

@Thor, yeah My dave read that I gave you before, it is moving

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP that either adds or removes clarity depending on your point of view

please state which post you are claiming garmr

typoed

. And what you claim he meant to say.

It's the same post you quote below.

I'm claiming I don't know what he really meant to say because it does not parse correctly as English,

or at least there is not a single unambiguous parse for it.

fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the

he stopped my pressure on boon

at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand. I believe he had to try and discredit because I don't think he was expecting to be questioned on 418 becuase he just labeled me as scum because of my reasoning for voting boon and getting lost early in the game, if he is going to label me as scum for my reasoning he should be able to show why it's flawed and then explain the scum motivation behind my post.

he made the point I am discussing several times

.

I assume you're referring strictly to the part in a different color. Let's look at the two sentences.

What I found scummy was I didn't like the

he stopped my pressure on boon

at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand.

Is Garmr trying to quote Anen? Is the part you marked with a color a quote? So Anen said "he (Garmr) stopped my (Anen) pressure on boon"? Or is Garmr missing a word between "like" and "the", such as "I didn't like the way he (Anen) stopped my (Garmr) pressure on boon"?

From the text alone

, it is not clear which of these meanings is the correct one. He and my are both pronouns without referents, as written. It is not even clear to me how you are interpreting it. So instead of quoting it yet again, and coloring a phrase pink, tell me in your own words what you think the whole sentence means. Not just the hilighted part, but the whole sentence. With inserted referents for all the pronouns.

Now, let's take the 2nd sentence. Which case do you think Garmr is referring to here? Garmr's case on Boon? At this point in time, Garmr is not pursuing a case on Boon, and hasn't for about 1000 posts IIRC. Is Garmr pursuing a case on Anen at that time? Could Garmr be complaining about Anen's efforts to defend against Garmr? If that is a possible meaning for this sentence, then it is the more likely meaning, in my opinion.

I(Axle) claim you(Davesaz) are not trying to find out Garmrs alignment.

Spoiler: Some of Garmr previously stated opinions on that part of the game

Basically What I'm saying is you tried to defend against my points with out having a valid counter points in fact you actually strengthened my points in some parts and that comes off as scummy.

I don't like the way Aneninen handled the way I pushed on boonskies by trying to disprove my points yet being unable to, ending up saying I don't agree with you. It just felt like a failed chainsaw attempt for boon.

It's not the fact you didn't agree with me. It's the fact you tried to discredit my points. Which you weren't able to then you just brushed it off passively by saying oh well we don't agree.

It really cut any progress on boonskies short

as he hasn't provided much content. You basically just tried wked him.

It is very clear Garmr is claiming this post 415 is where Garmr votes Boon and applied pressure to Boon
(and it did but only a little due to earlier posts by Garmr 133 139 183 )

he(Garmr) then claims the effect of 418 by Anen was to: GarmrSaid "

stopped my(Garmrs) pressure on Boon

"
he(Garmr) also claims the same post 418 failed to refute his(Garmrs) points and they(the points) "

still stand

"
If he(Garmr) actually believed the points(against Boon in the vote post) still stand then Anen can't have also stopped the pressure on Boon. (in 418)

and I(Axle) cant see how a towny(Garmr) can reasonably think both thoughts. (Stopped the pressure, didnt refute the points)

Not only that but Anen had in 418 supplied his own extra points on Boon that Anen said be found believable.

@Thor, yeah My dave read that I gave you before, it is moving

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: answering all of daves questions

Is Garmr trying to quote Anen?

no. It is clearly not.

Is the part you marked with a color a quote?

If you follow the links at the beginning of the things I quoted you will see the original.
If you are asking was the purple bit Garmr quoting Anen , then no it wasnt. I was clearly Garmr's opinion
You have failed to fully specify which bit marked with color. I probably guessed right.

So Anen said "he (Garmr) stopped my (Anen) pressure on boon"?

Nope. TBMK at no time did Anen say that in the thread.

Or is Garmr missing a word between "like" and "the", such as "I didn't like the way he (Anen) stopped my (Garmr) pressure on boon"?

Note for pedantry you didnt insert a word between "like" and "the" you just added one between "the" and "he".
And yes I didnt even notice the missing word. until you pointed it out. But all reasonable missing words I can think of dont change the meaning and it is congruent with his previous statements.
So I have no doubt what he meant, and I think reasonable people who looked at Garmr's ISO wouldn't either.

From the text alone

, it is not clear which of these meanings is the correct one. He and my are both pronouns without referents, as written. It is not even clear to me how you are interpreting it. So instead of quoting it yet again, and coloring a phrase pink, tell me in your own words what you think the whole sentence means. Not just the hilighted part, but the whole sentence. With inserted referents for all the pronouns.

These are not questions. But I think it is very clear what Garmr meant: Garmr meant that: Garmr claimed that Anenes post 418 stopped Garmr's pressure on Boonskies. (pressure was from 415)
Further Garmr also claims that Anens post 418 didnt refute the points the pressure was based on but strengthened them and that that still stopped the pressure.

The second sentence: "Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand.

Now, let's take the 2nd sentence. Which case do you think Garmr is referring to here? Garmr's case on Boon?

Garmr is very clearly referring to the case Garmr made in 415
Garmr said this

axle this is the last time I'm going to talk about that initial conversation with anne

which makes it abundantly clear what period of time he is referring to.

At this point in time, Garmr is not pursuing a case on Boon, and hasn't for about 1000 posts IIRC. Is Garmr pursuing a case on Anen at that time?

Nope, but the post is reply to mine and states that it is talking about earlier in the game.

Could Garmr be complaining about Anen's efforts to defend against Garmr? If that is a possible meaning for this sentence, then it is the more likely meaning, in my opinion.

Nope, Garmr is talking about 418 he has long described that as either a chainsaw, or a wk depending on whether Boon currently looked scummy or towny.

If I still missed some important ones please point them out.

As it was me asking the questions and the topic Dave said was me bugging him, me focussing on what I thought important seemed appropriate.

My previous post cut to what I thought was important. I still regard all these questions as mere distractions hence me putting them in a spoiler.

[AxleGreaser]

Not to mention, Garmr isn't even a player in this game any more. Once again, how is it better to continue to read Garmr than it is to see what the new player does?

and yes Garmr has been replaced.

This does not mean all the previous posts suddenly become NULL and not alignment indicative.

I have been friendly to Josh B, and yes if i am wrong the best chance i have to find out is for Josh B to play, probably as I suggested.
Commenting clearly and well on those cases, points of interest are the things I suspect a scum!(garmr/Josh B) would least want to do.

So JoshB can earn towny points with me fastest right where I said.

I am however entirely happy and willing to drive the lynch on the GarmR/JoshB slot based largely on the play by GarmR.

[AxleGreaser]

How many times do I have to point this out?

It wont matter how many times you point that out as it is refuting a claim I never made.

[AxleGreaser]

But it is not the contradiction you're painting it to be

Yes it is.

Garmr claimed Anen failed discredited his points

Garmr claimed that that stopped his pressure on Boon.

Failing to discredit points does not stop pressure.

Indeed garmr also claimed Anen made his points stronger.

Making point stronger on Boon does not stop pressure.

The contradiction is clear and strong.

[AxleGreaser]

I should rephrase that, at the time Aneninen did his thing with boon. Boon didn't even hint at a power role this comes after Annienens chainsaw defense of him. Also he admits he doesn't even think Boon is town he just wants to

discredit my points which he didn't

. To me that's a scum that doesn't want to make his read look bad but backfires.

Like, if you're trying to read Garmr, and not paint him only as scum, leaving out this post is very misreppy.

No it is not misreppy, there is Garmr yet again claiming

Anen didn't discredit the points on Boon

.

If he didn't discredit the points how did Anen stop the pressure on Boon?

[AxleGreaser]

Is it your belief that all contradictions are scummy?

as that would be silly, obviously I don't think that.

Or do you think it's possible for town to be just plain wrong about something?

yes I believe town can be wrong about stuff.

What is important about this contradiction, is the contradictory points are central to a theoretical town!garmrs play.

Garmr claims he was pressuring Boon, (he was), he claims he stopped because of Anen's post.
that is not something I can reasonably thinks town Garmr makes mistake about.

How to correctly interpret Anens post is something Garmr could make a mistake about (however that is not what I am doing (at this point of the case))

Garmrs own interpretation of Anens points, are that Grmr claims Anens post (418) failed to discredit Garmr's points against Boon.
Again Garmr is highly unlikely to be mistaken about what he himself thinks....

If the post failed in Garmrs mind to discredit, the points, how can he also have thought the post also stopped the pressure on Boon.

Is the contradiction the whole case?

Nope there is more and i posted it. More than once.

However I want you to explain how Town Garmr can have both those ideas and believe both of them to be true.

[AxleGreaser]

Back into English, this assumes the only reason pressure might be stopped is because the points are discredited.

Nope it doesnt

assume

that at all.

Garmr claimed "he(Anen) stopped my pressure on boon"

axle this is the last time I'm going to talk about that initial conversation with anne

fuck It here it goes. What I found scummy was I didn't like the he stopped my pressure on boon at the time boon was a weak scum read and I wanted more reactions to get a feel for him. Annenin comes in and trys to dismantle my case because he doesn't agree (Town motive)/wants to discredit(scum motive what I think) he fails to do so as my points still actually stand.

He claimed, that Anen didint discredit the points and Anen stopped the pressure.

[AxleGreaser]

Found an extra question I hadn't answered

Did you understand what the corrected definition of proof by intimidation means?

I have read this (I suggest others do too)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_intimidation
and it all seems to make sense to me so I think Understand what Proof_by_intimidation is.
I think I have seen each form attempted in RL.

[AxleGreaser]

If the pressure is stopped because the points are attempted to be discredited (regardless of whether the discredit works) we get.

except mafia doesnt work that way.

Garmr says Boon is scummy because of reason X.

Anen says. X is not the first letter of the alphabet Garmr's reason is bollocks. (or anything else that fails)

Errm...
Garmr says Boon is scummy because of reason X.

has lost nothing. If it applied pressure before it still does.

[AxleGreaser]

So Garmr felt that Anen did NOT successfully refute his points, but also felt that his interjection had affected the dynamic of his interaction with Boon in a manner that was either negative or counter-productive to what he was aiming to accomplish.

what.

Garmr didnt say negative or counter producitve, Garmr said stopped.

and if you go read the thread, Garmr did in fact just stop pressuring Boon.

(all time are probably in +10 AEST)

Wed 7:21 am (Garmr and Anen discuss it)

Wed 5pm Boon responds to garmr and the convo

Garmr does reiterate his now strengthened points
Garmr does talk to PereV Thur 6am
Garmr does talk to GM PereV Thur 8am
TSO Thurs 8.30am
GM Thurs 8:50 am

Boon says dont push me to claim 11am Thurs

In all that time Garmr doesn't actually try and push Boon again.

I believe Garmr is scum and wasnt actually even really as a towny trying to push Boon.

This is why later when he retrospectively as scum makes it up, the facts don't line up.

[AxleGreaser]

bugger I left out some critical words.

So Garmr felt that Anen did NOT successfully refute his points, but also felt that his interjection had affected the dynamic of his interaction with Boon in a manner that was either negative or counter-productive to what he was aiming to accomplish.

what.

Garmr didnt say negative or counter producitve, Garmr said stopped.

and if you go read the thread, Garmr did in fact just stop pressuring Boon.

(all time are probably in +10 AEST)

Wed 7:21 am (Garmr and Anen discuss it)

Wed 5pm Boon responds to garmr and the convo

Garmr does NOT respond to boon and reiterate his now strengthened points
(if they were as he claimed strengthened by Anen he could, if he wanted to have done that)
(it was not wanting or bothering to that stopped any pressure there was at that time.)

Garmr does talk to PereV Thur 6am
Garmr does talk to GM PereV Thur 8am
TSO Thurs 8.30am
GM Thurs 8:50 am

Boon says dont push me to claim 11am Thurs

In all that time Garmr doesn't actually try and push Boon again.

I believe Garmr is scum and wasnt actually even really as a towny trying to push Boon.

This is why later when he retrospectively as scum makes it up, the facts don't line up.

[AxleGreaser]

So what you're saying is that you don't think I've successfully refuted your points.

yep

[AxleGreaser]

So what you're saying is that you don't think I've successfully refuted your points.

yep

and you have not stopped the pressure on Garmr slot.

[AxleGreaser]

Interestingly enough though, your most recent series of posts have been directed at me and not at Dave though. Perhaps I stopped the pressure/momentum on dave slot? He would be the appropriate slot for this analogy anyways. (You=Garmr, dave=Boon, Iz=Anen)

go back and read Garmr and Boon, what momentum at the Boon slot...?

that is not akin to what happened.

[AxleGreaser]

can you guys explain to me what you're arguing about? Should Boonskies be getting more pressure or is that relevant?

Is boonskies a neighbor?

I've read about 20 pages so far, my first impression is that tobyloby is scum.

Axel, none of the posts you showed me make me think scum GM at all. I haven't really looked into thor or boonskies yet, but are they scumier than you?

They are arguing with me about this, one of the early reasons I thought your slot was scummy.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6378602

well as I am 100% town to me, every unflipped slot is scummier than me? huh.

[AxleGreaser]

So Garmr felt that Anen did NOT successfully refute his points, but also felt that his interjection had affected the dynamic of his interaction with Boon in a manner that was either negative or counter-productive to what he was aiming to accomplish.

Garmer feld that Anen's intervention destroyed his ability to continue to pursue the interaction with Boon. The points made by Anen were wrong, but the interaction stopped the pressure.

It is perfectly reasonable to think that scum might stop pressuring someone when interrupted.

It is not reasonable to think that scum would continue to argue the same failing point forever. There is no way scum is going to do that. Scum would

stop and completely drop the subject

, and probably not even say why they were stopped.

Are you now arguing Garmr is scum?

Garmr did drop the point, he was trying to make against Boon.
He dropped even though he claimed Anen made the points stronger.

Garmr was looking for some nice quiet place to park his vote, and then not really push the lynch.

[AxleGreaser]

The Garmr wagon last had life about a week ago - if that doesn't make it dead I don't know what does.

being the largest wagon apart from the one on you.

[AxleGreaser]

The Garmr wagon last had life about a week ago - if that doesn't make it dead I don't know what does.

How about you vote GM just to see what happens?

VOTE: GM
VOTE: Garmr

Not much.

So despite it being nice case you still want to dismantle this wagon?

I tend yo vote people who are scummy based on nice cases.

"

ooo the Garmr wagon was so last week,

"

doesnt really cut it as a scum read, or a reason to vote someone else.

and yeah while I am prepared to vote GM today, for the reasons I posted in the thread.

How about you post a nice case on GM and see what happens.
because unless I see a better case on someone other than Garmr I wont be voting anyone else, until it becomes required.

(oh and nice case, for me, has specific details not hand wavy generalisations)

[AxleGreaser]

Hey what do u think on my case on slandar ?

dont like it

[AxleGreaser]

Then vote her - or tell me the 1-2 people you see as about to vote Garmr. Either response is viable in my opinion.

I tend to vote people who are scummy based on nice cases.

"ooo the Garmr wagon was so last week, "

doesnt really cut it as a scum read, or a reason to vote someone else.

How about you post a nice case on GM and see what happens.

because unless I see a better case on someone other than Garmr I wont be voting anyone else, until it becomes required.

(oh and nice case, for me, has specific details not hand wavy generalisations)

[AxleGreaser]

Though actually I have to admit that Dave's AtE is working on me.
Admission of utter wrong is not something scum usually care to do to themselves.

Unvote: Dave
Vote: Goodmorning

How many OMGUS votes is that for me now?

Really? And you expect anyone to vote that?
Tell me again, what are your contributions other than yelling very loudly?
I mean, is it really that much of a distinction that people listen? Last I heard by way of vote count, fewer were listening to you than GM.

My contributions are not sitting around doing nothing and acting like it means something.

How about you post a nice case on GM and see what happens.

I gave my case on GM.
You gave *your* case for GM.
Your current wagon is a load.

I see your last vote on GM and everything in between.
Before that anything you said before that did not make GM your most lynch worthy person or you would have been voting him ... right?

So to see what now makes him most lynch worthy for you I look after your vote right?

and yeah I made posts stating my problems with GM's play.
If you agree with my points you could say so which ones and why.

I still find Garmr to be scummier.

You appear to be telling me I should play my town game, like some people play scum, and find some wagon that is popular and park my vote there.

I have indeed been and will continue pursing people to vote the Garmr. If it remains major wagon, then people will default vote it at the end of the day.
You were claiming you were likely to get lynched as default if no other wagon took off. Surely if you are off the table that wagon that will in the end get lynched if nothing else happens is Garmr.
You appear to be trying to save Garmr. :/

Indeed :/ :/


Most recently I pursued davesaz, at least in part because I was concerned about his alignment and wanted some indications
I found Daves responses that tend to produce large amount of fluff stalling and filling the thread with pointless crap to be problematic.

Daves insistence i answer all his questions at 3910 and yet when I do 3914 it turns out they were all bullshit do nothing waste time questions that eh then has no further interest in
and then at 3944 trying to paint me as the problem is kind a funny. Well it would be except other people didn't even notice.

That dave is capable of writing this summary 3937 and yet in this post 3896 asks a big bunch of pointless obvious questions that he (as stated above) demands get answered is also telling.

[AxleGreaser]

And if so can u tear my case to pieces so I can consider joining yours instead ?

@Shiro

If I do it will you come back to vote garmr?

Spoiler: Shiro's Slaandar case.

Garmr was looking for some nice quiet place to park his vote, and then not really push the lynch.

Hint What slander has been doing as well

Day 1 Gm (Never really pushed)and then joke over hammer
Day 2 Me (Never strongly pushed me since he broke his points to 24 hours gaps,werent all that strong and never truly tried to convince anyone to vote me) and now Gamr ( Not a single push attempt)

Oh fun fact I noticed. Both days he felt the need to protect leading wagons and to add when Thor said he found his defence of him odd slander....stopped cause u know he wanted to save thor.
He also felt the need to announce at the end of day 1 that he tried to save pere yet never really tried to push anyone else in order to create a reasonable alternative

Oh about the contradiction I mentioned
One imples he found the lack of reason scummy
The other says it find the uterior motive of passing responsibility scummy

They contradict because the first implies that he cannot see a reason thus founds the vote off and scummy
The other says he sees a uterior motive and sees that reason as scummy.

Lots of the thread has been doing that, (parking somewhere safe. Its driving me to tears as quite few must be town.)

A difference however is you can find Slaandar doing things. He clearly didnt like the PereV wagon and did poke around on GM finding interesting scummy looking points.
(I am sure i can dig up other things he did do that were towny.)
GMs csaero read appeared out of thin air, which GM explains as Oh I was pressuring him then i reread and it all seemed towny after all.
GM seems to do afair bit of this convenient flipping positions after a re-read. So thats good stuff by Slaandar.

GARMR

Your turn go find good stuff Gramr did? Hmmm?

He weak sauced a push on Boon (he even had already previously agreed that Boon had answered his RVS point! )
/ Crap pushed Anen for bad made reasons / OMGUS'd me as 85% scum / then voted boon thus >85% / then voted Thor for ? / then ran away (replaced out)

back to your case on Slaandar.
And why should his(Slaandars) points that he pushed you over be strong? Are you claiming scum?
Slaandars points on you, if you are towny should feel like this: He pushes (perhaps even with not real good reason)
Then at some point if you start to make sense, he backs off for what appears to be areal reason. Scum may push and back off for nothing. Slaandar pushed and backed off for real reason. ergo he is townier?
(Thats TBMK we can go look and see if I remember right if you like)(it will be waste of time (clog thread) I am quite sure.. but if you want make specific claims about him backing off you (who know you are town) in a scummy way please do so.)
Claiming that Slaandar never made headway in making a case on your self who is town, is default towny point in my book. (It smells like scum hunting, found town, then stopped.)

The time at which Slaandar stopped defending Thor was a time I thought a towny Slaandar with a town read on Thor should have. The style of the defence especially at the start felt weird. Weird people are weird people and I don't know why it was scummy as TBMK no one has ever said why.

I don't follow your contradiction claim. If I understand it correctly I claim I am town, and I held both views (to some degree). I thought you were short on clear reasons for voting PereV, and when I read it the vote shift also did some blame shifting.
I had slightly different evaluation of how scummy you looked for it. I was however glad someone was pressing you about it. I was even glad that Muffin took the other side, although the bollocks of the arguments basis (counting bad stuff badly and not very alignment indicatively) was upsetting, (to my inductive inference sensibilities)

[AxleGreaser]

The Garmr wagon last had life about a week ago

- if that doesn't make it dead

I don't know what does.

How about you vote GM just to see what happens?

VOTE: GM

VOTE: Garmr

Not much.

So despite it being nice case you still want to dismantle this wagon?

I tend to vote people who are scummy based on nice cases

.

"

ooo the Garmr wagon was so last week

,

"

doesnt really cut it as a scum read, or a reason to vote someone else.

and yeah while I am prepared to vote GM today, for the reasons I posted in the thread.

How about you post a nice case on GM and see what happens

.
because unless I see a better case on someone other than Garmr I wont be voting anyone else, until it becomes required.

(oh and nice case, for me, has specific details not hand wavy generalisations)

You feel thor has presented a bad case and you respond by voting for garmr?

The four purple bits combined make a joke (or two).(but one that is game related and relevant) sorry if that wasnt clear enough.
(other colours now match up other related thoughts and counter points)

My vote was on Garmr and remained on Garmr after the post.

I claim an argument of the form

ooo the garmr case is so last week

is not a good one.
and no I have not seen Thor commit himself to a case on GM.
I believe I have done more specific(details) posting about why GM is scummy(but less so than Garmr), and I am not even voting him... huh?

When he had no PR claim to use a shield I could understand Thor Not stepping up to the plate again on D2 as he did on D1.
Indeed a towny aiming for that much thread control when they do in fact have good scum game is likely to raise paranoia.
Letting other people steer the day for a bit made sense. (Thor waffling around the edges ,driving discussion on various OMGUS votes D2 was towny!!!!! to me OMG.)

That Thor is currently seemingly, trying to specifically dismantle the Garmr wagon by brute force(bluster) rather than reason (unfortunately that is his town game style too. )
is more problematic.

I am challenging Thor to actually post a current case with reasons, rather than trying get people to vote GM because it is what the cool kids are doing.

I too dont like GMs filter and it looks quite scummy, and my reasons are in the thread and no they dont look as bad as Garmr.

---

@Flubber

So why specifically dont you want to lynch garmr?
What do you find wrong with the various points I have made on him (here are some)
Good reasons to vote garmr #3 3799 #2 3421 #1 3391

[AxleGreaser]

Garmr is null because I haven't bothered to parse a single post of his yet.

addendum. here is a tip. When you do parse Garmrs posts they will be scummy.
previous post has a 3 step reading guide.

[AxleGreaser]

Anyway. People oughta unvote. I'm intrigued as to what Thor can do if he's not holding back the tide of derp.

That might even be alignment indicative yeah?

@Fonz so your not voting garmr and i am not voting Flubber why not?

Where is your best shot at convincing me to vote Flubber?
and my best shot at convincing you is up a few posts. (the @Flubber thing...)

Although I could update the Garmr scummy contradiction when voting Anen, thus.

Garmr did not really push Boonskiies. Go back and read his ISO near/prior to 418.
Was Garmr even seriously trying to get read?

When Garmr was voting Anen did he try and progress the read get better evidence, or explain it clearly in the thread?

It was not Anen that stopped Garmr pushing Boon, it was that Garmr never really did try. Then there was claim.
Then Garmr wanted a new target and someone to blame for his old push being a do nothing fluff piece.
Thus came the vote on Anen.

I mean seriously Garmr asked a question, got an answer from Boon about the RVS. Accepted the answer!
Then a bit later said nah and voted Boon for it anyway? What kind of pressure was that?
and how could Garmr seriously think someone else would chainsaw such a fluffy do nothing push.

Vote Garmr it will make you feel god when he flips scum.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: vote counts from last game day

Votecount 1.11

[7]

PeregrineV:

Egg, Thor665, Muffin, Scripten, davesaz, The Fonz, Boonskiies
[4]

Thor:

goodmorning, Nero Cain, flubbernugget, PeregrineV
[3]

Aneninen:

T S O, Garmr, Cho
[2]

Scripten:

Izariael, TierShift
[2]

T S O:

AxleGreaser, Aneninen
[1]

Cho:

Grayfoxxxx

[2]

Not Voting:

Aeronaut, hephaestus

With 21 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline:

(expired on 2014-10-18 22:12:03)

Mod Notes

Consider the deadline suspended until replacements are found.

Hephaestus has been prodded. Cho and Aeronaut are still being replaced. Izariael has one or two more days given that he told me he was going to be V/LA until last Friday.

Votecount 1.16

[7]

PeregrineV:

Egg, Thor665, Scripten, davesaz, The Fonz, Boonskiies, T S O
[4]

Aneninen:

WBOCampfire1104, Muffin, TierShift, Garmr
[4]

Thor665:

goodmorning, Nero Cain, flubbernugget, Izariael
[1]

goodmorning:

Slandaar
[1]

Scripten:

PeregrineV
[1]

Slandaar:

Aneninen
[1]

T S O:

AxleGreaser
[1]

WBOCampire1104:

Grayfoxxxx


[1]

Not Voting:

hephaestus

With 21 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline:

suspended

Mod Notes

Still looking for a replacement.

Votecount 1.17

[5]

Aneninen:

WBOCampfire1104, Muffin, TierShift, Garmr, T S O
[5]

PeregrineV:

Egg, Thor665, Scripten, The Fonz, Boonskiies
[4]

Thor665:

goodmorning, Nero Cain, flubbernugget, Izariael
[1]

Egg:

davesaz
[1]

goodmorning:

Slandaar
[1]

Scripten:

PeregrineV
[1]

Slandaar:

Aneninen
[1]

T S O:

AxleGreaser
[1]

WBOCampire1104:

Grayfoxxxx


[1]

Not Voting:

hephaestus

With 21 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline:

suspended

Mod Notes

Still looking for a replacement for WBOCampfire1104.

In the previous game day, your PereV wagon stalled (on 7) for 8 days, losing as many votes as it got.
Then went backwards down to 5.
(yeah it was bad)

BUT
That didn't mean it was dead wagon, and should be unvoted. You kept pushing it.

How come today, you call the Garmr wagon dead?

It looks little like convenient logic?

[AxleGreaser]

above ^^^
@Thor and related to the post 4021

[AxleGreaser]

If people were being as

aggressive

about it as I was about Pere I would not be calling it dead.

Style. I like people to agree with my wagons for reasons, I probably could try to develop a meta of just aggressively berating people into agreeing, but
(1) I don't want to practice being that kind of person. (I am what I eat and do.)
(2) needing reasons in your town meta makes playing scum when you do from time to time really hard and fun at the same time.
(note 3421 was TBMK fairly standard mafia "hardball", but it does not sit well on me. (or i don't want it to) and hey, then the 2nd guy I suspected replaced out . == bad Axl? )
(but Thor thinks 3421 is pussy cat? odd. out of place. )


I am not aggressive in the same way as you.
But I know
anyone who is not a mini Thor is bad.

@Thor
What if the GM wagon just wont go/fly.
Who would be your second best lynch? (Well get to why if there is any common ground.)

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: shhh

If people were being as aggressive about it as I was about Pere I would not be calling it dead.

Axle's being pretty fucking aggressive about it,

is what I would say if I was reading Axle's posts.

Maybe now he'll notice you're just saying what's convenient for you and people are swallowing it.

Yeah LOL

(So inconvenient that your actually needing to reference the aggressive contents of my posts having claimed not to be reading them eh)

It is Ok I see you peeking through that paw of yours.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Mm94Vr6mnZQ/T ... C_5558.jpg

[AxleGreaser]

A problem I have with that wagon is that have you as PE#2, though. Not sure enough you're scum that it isn't worth a go mind.

Axle == parsing error.
PE#2 is Process of Elimination 2 or what? or Piece of Excrement number 2 or ... ?

Also... try talking to me?

What you wanna know?

Probe me on the case see if i am genuine?

Huh?

[AxleGreaser]

Dave - since he ducked backing up the AtE.

Do you have reasons in the thread?
(Someone was scum reading him earlier i forget who?)

or we need to fly with my reasons?
My reasons would be thin as I spent some time this game town reading dave.

perhaps if i went back and reread his whole game with my recent understanding of his technical/mafia capabilities,

3936 is valid as far as it goes. 3937 is a concise to the point summary.
(these set a benchmark for the (literary and mafia)skills Dave ought be able to use if he is trying)

yet

3896 is padded at the end with pointless trivial pedantic questions ,that he then demands answers too 3910 and then does nothing with the obvious answers in 3914
then he runs away into mind numbing propositional calculus 3920 for no functional purpose blah blah....
and then at the end of it...all tries to accuse me of the mess he made (3942(but distancing self) 3944). (seemingly deliberately)

That doesn't look good to me, but it would look whole lot worse if garmr flips scum.
How bad it would look if Garmr flips scum has me wondering where the game is at.
For that maatter how is dave so sure garmr is town. 3957 That seems like very black and white view of how scum will definitely play.

Are there so many linkages to a scum!garmr flip that scum is going all in? 3957 or ....
Hmmm.

Also those technical/mafia capabilities (above) seem in my mind quite at odds with he kind of player that gets confused by mere technicalities

Spoiler: such as

I'm claiming I don't know what he really meant to say because it does not parse correctly as English, or at least there is not a single unambiguous parse for it.

yes it true that computer program would get confused by it, but human with skill, actually trying should find it clear what garmr meant.
To get bogged down in the technical imperfections, smells of a ploy.
similarly this, does not feel like a genuine misunderstanding of Garmrs post.

Which case do you think Garmr is referring to here? Garmr's case on Boon? At this point in time, Garmr is not pursuing a case on Boon, and hasn't for about 1000 posts IIRC.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: LOL

Axle I'm not voting garmr because I want to wait for a better catch up and because a vote for Thor is a vote for lollipops and rainbows and if you don't like lollipops and rainbows you're a communist.

but I like lollipops and rainbows and in this game I am a communalist (as I play for the town team) is that a problem?

(no money changes hands,quid pro quo is the only economy, and only town in this local game counts my allies)

(also warning chance of typos goes up for next 24hrs due to the computer setup I am stuck on)

so I will put Flubber down as definite maybe...

I'll be back

for you later
<

Bloody hipster voters

>

Would it help if pointed out how hard Thor has seemed to be trying to disassemble the Garmr wagon?

(What if I sold you my grandma?)

<nope thats one step too far>

[AxleGreaser]

@Axl I would agree but I am still Slandar top scum read, How does that fit in the way you presented his thoughts ?

But he is currently voting Garmr.

last statement I found showing strength of read was

I don't think Shiro is town.

after that he looks like he discusses with you the basis of his original concern about your alignment.

You appear to be very sensitive about the fact that anyone expresses actual suspicion of you and wants to talk to you about it.
you actually ought perhaps be more concerned about people that dont.


In 4018 I went to some length to talk about you case and say whats wrong with it.
This latest question appears to be related to only the point where i was saying he stopped.
And yes he is not pushing that point now. He will still be suspicious of you and he probably will come back to you and question you more about other things you do.
What else would expect from town?

as my post also states problems I have with the rest of your case, and you didn´t rebut those.
Surely how scummy you view Slaandar has been reduced.

are you saying he is still you biggest and best scum read?

(note this post was mainly written some hours ago, visitors+dinner. SO I am not sure if it is now out of place.)

[AxleGreaser]

Public Enemy No2. As in my second strongest scum read. I still feel your claim that you felt TSO unviable rings false. But meh. Like I said, when I have time for a proper post (sometime between 6-12 hrs from now - I just finished a 12hr nightshift).

well if you feel that for gawds sake do something about it.

There are a bunch of reasons for that play if you really want to know.

Spoiler: Things you dont know which mean you cant have an accurate guess on how reasonable that one choice is

You dont know how sure I was TSO is scum d1. TSO is my D1 the alternative wagon was PereV vs Thor or Anen. All I have to be for certain is more sure TSO will flip scum (than the others),
and or be comparably likely to flip scum

and

is unlikely to start playing observably towny D2. TSO fullfiiled that second criteria in spades. He had already indicated strong desire not to be cooperative in his play style.
You can have some sense from your reading of things I actually said. I was trying to get the scummiest guy lynched... so don´t read too much.
But as no one, and I pretty much mean no one else was willing to even apply pressure(vote) on him D1, where is my magical faith that they will then on D2 consider lynching him with no more actual information come from.

Not only that but if anyone had changed on D2 and suddenly become sure TSO was scum when they wouldnt budge D1, that would be scummy as fuck, and Id want to lynch anyone else that voted for TSO D2 without new evidence. So trying to get new vote on TSO without new info is actually I think self defeating.
(note for future games meta readers (and this games readers) this D1 was special with how little anyone pushed anything, so them flipping onto TSO D2 would be awful.)

You also have no valid estimate, of what I thought might eventuate if I stopped pushing so hard. I did indicate a desire to still see the reads(even with the flip), he indicted he had promised them to his hood.
If he lied and he hadn´t then him lying about what he said to his hood is for them to sort out. If he had promised an didnt deliver to them, that is again for them to sort out.
If I had stuck my big fat nose in that then TSO could again simply have effectively said ¨No I wont do it because axle pisses me off and hes stupid, and so I dont want to.¨ Childish and silly but it worked fine D1. and he has meta for pissing matches.... (but see muffins law about meta)

Also go back and see who I first pointed out Anens previous game history too? It was Garmr.
I was always interested, and always thought his stated reasons were probably scummy, but my D1 plan had been to get TSOs reasons first then move on or at least talk to them both.
TSO stalled for so damn long I never got to also deal with Garmr D1.

So on D2 I did the productive thing and checked if anyone else was scummier.
You seem to be rather heavily implying you´d possibly vote TSO today? If so then you find him scummy, you push it. If he is scum, he cant pretend pre-existing bad blood with you.

Your problem with reading my seeming change in direction as town, is you have an over simplistic expectation of how I play the game and how tunnelled I am on TSO.
One of my std sigs is ÄxleNoTheoryToAbsurdToBeConsideredGreaser. I never get 100% tunnelled. The theory I am in the wrong tunnel is never to absurd.

also as that is one choice youd have to hav an accurate and strong feel for it to reasonably get to PE#2 status.

Thus I have problem with you.

You have claimed I am your PE#2

I have a huge fricken filter and long posts, on lots of stuff.
and the one scummy point you have to mention is a change in direction you have never really asked me about much?
FFS. All my reads have more substance than that.
If your reads are actually that thin do something about it ....
It looks like stalling.

For a start,
take your hands out of your pockets and work out if that one tiny point in my great big filter is anything at all.

Its not. (see above)

[AxleGreaser]

No, I'm arguing there is no possible way Garmr could be scum,

because of the continued discussion of Anen's effect on the Boon push. Based on my opinions about how scum play.

Scum would stop talking about Boon. Period. Scum Garmr would never again mention his push on Boon. Not even to defend against someone attacking him for it. The correct scum play is to say "what are you talking about, I dropped that ages ago when Boon soft claimed". The correct scum play is to say "well, Anen flipped town so there is no point in further discussion about whether that was a chainsaw". No, arguing with you about it shows explicit town motivation. Garmr was using Anen to argue that you, as scum, are beating the dead horse of Anen's influence on Garmr's Boon push.

The Garmr slot might be scum,

but not for the reason you are pushing.

I am not town reading that slot. I might even be scum reading that slot.

For me to vote Josh, someone other than Axle needs to convince me the slot is scummy,

without using the "Garmr contradiction" case as evidence.

Hey dave your position on the Garmr slot lately seems rather a lot inconsistent.
Explain this.

Especially who persuaded you to change your mind so fast?

and why.

[AxleGreaser]

Although Gm said she doesnt even remember getting pushed by him

WAT.

Go read the thread an see if it happened.
Why are you trusting GM
and even if you trust GM as town, why trust the memory go read the thread. (right near the end of the day when I voted GM too.)

[AxleGreaser]

Catching up. Sorry, been busy past few days.

So boon

Good reasons to vote garmr #3 3799 #2 3421 #1 3391

@Boon
When you are catching up read those 3 and either vote Garmr or explain why not. (with details)

[AxleGreaser]

The JoshB(ex garmr) wagon looks like something scum will do anything to avoid it being flipped

[AxleGreaser]

Beast sucks too, but Dave has more votes on him.

and I dont see

your reasons

for voting that wagon , except some cool kids popularity meme

[AxleGreaser]

No I am saying this is the reason you presented

That's right.

It is not the reason you presented though. The reason you presented is Anen is town. They can both co-exist.

guys lynch people one at a time.
after you both lynch scum together I am sure that will also (well it ought) contribute to your read on one another. eh?

so Shiro if you are concerned about Slaandars views, focus on getting scum lynched today....
if Slaandar doesnt notice the towny things you may do while doing that
then you could well attract my attention to your claim

Slaandar, if you don´t keep bugging Shiro about something that is not lynchworthy today, and dragging her off topic but she still keeps wandering OT, then that too would attract my attention.

so how about you both hunt one another by giving one another enough rope....hmmm.

and if you get worried but scum will just kill axle, overnight.... then now you have Axle (the flipped townies words right here)

kthx

[AxleGreaser]

Six vanity wagons!!! What a display of hubris!

There's only five now.
You should be pushing the Thor wagon more.

that is unless you are scum waiting to opportunistically bus or not bus your partner later

@thread

that applies to you too.

(yeah its red deal with it)

If you are town please

stop playing like you are scum

and

take a stand on wagon

that may succeed today.

If you want to claim the wagon you are on may succeed ,

do something about trying to make it succeed

, or at least stop pretending you are.

[AxleGreaser]

Oh and if the wagons that have more than 1 vote all look so town you cant bear the thought of voting one of them.

Say so.... now

loudly and clearly (as that would at least be

taking a stand

.)

TLDR: FFS Play

[AxleGreaser]

My favorite part of the Fonz's case is where he says I'm not pushing a lynch on a lurker.

Btw my case was based on the fact that he was distanced from the game, which he no longer is.

I'm also being criticized for seeing an interaction as scum v. scum and wanting to push a lynch on the stronger player of the interaction. That's fun.

so are you more concerned with how you look or lynching scum today?

please be sure your posting topics, reflects your actual priorities?

kthx bye.

[AxleGreaser]

I would genuinely consider lynching me - I will selfvote. I cannot give this slot to someone else, but I can't make myself do it either.

I really am sorry.

but have you read enough to decide who you want lynched today?

[AxleGreaser]

i might start to care about this game later

Care about it now.

I'M TRYING!!!!!
but like I'm being so lazy and there are so many bad players.

Would pl

[...]

Slandaar
Josh_B
flubbernugget
Izariael
Scripten
TierShift

^^^^
So I'm kinda thinking that are there.

please restate this clearly.
are these the people you consider scummy.

If so,as you are LAZY and are not pushing your flub lynch....
Why are you not taking the LAZY easier option of voting JoshB/Garmr slot?

In your opinion, Your current wagon only has lazy voters an people you want to PL on it. I don´t believe you have a realistic expectation flub will get lynched today.
explain why you do or vote elsewhere now pls.

If not be at least unlazy enough to make a clear statement
or be honest enough to add yourself to your own PL list.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP

Six vanity wagons!!! What a display of hubris!

There's only five now.
You should be pushing the Thor wagon more.

(on rereading this I realised its unclear, its statement to reinoe, this is +1 extension to thors thought, not a retort)

that is unless you are scum waiting to opportunistically bus or not bus your partner later

@thread

that applies to you too.

(yeah its red deal with it)

If you are town please

stop playing like you are scum

and

take a stand on wagon

that may succeed today.

If you want to claim the wagon you are on may succeed ,

do something about trying to make it succeed

, or at least stop pretending you are.

[AxleGreaser]

Considering the recent play, Thor seems to be holding onto to a claim the closer we get to deadline, the harder it will be to reverse a wagon if it goes higher.

and do you town read this play by JoshB?

[AxleGreaser]

I don't think I've ever been told not to vote someone so vehemently especially in a situation where others actually thought the person I was voting was scum.

It's clear that Thor is today's wanted lynch. Considering the recent play, Thor seems to be holding onto to a claim the closer we get to deadline, the harder it will be to reverse a wagon if it goes higher.

I'm putting my vote back on Thor.

VOTE: Thor

No - do you scum read it?

It 4134 does not read like towny, who is choosing a least bad option and placing a survival vote.
If he is not, and thinks youre scummy, then why the short voting excursion onto fonz?

and this doesnt read like you are scummy to him.

Squirell, you aren't really giving me much to work with here.

I dont get consistent feel for his flow of thought from him,
so yeah its another bit,
Its certainly not a towny feel.

[AxleGreaser]

I plan to get to Lylo on this, because everything I said makes sense.

Scum have to get past lylo to win. Why if you are town are you planning that town will ever be at lylo?
It may all make sense to you. Maybe not to everyone else though.

Boon play the game not just your purposeful VI meta.

[AxleGreaser]

I plan to get to Lylo on this, because everything I said makes sense.

Scum have to get past lylo to win.

Why if you are town are you planning that town will ever be at lylo

?
It may all make sense to you. Maybe not to everyone else though.

Boon play the game not just your purposeful VI meta.

I really like the thought process of this post. Axle may be noisy in thread, but gems like this give me the impression that he isn't scum.

whiteknight the derp town more.

(as no one was wking boon there)

How do you know the derp is town?

If the Derp is known to you to be town (and you are town), why cant that just be a read by another towny?

As you seem quite convinced the derp is town, whats the white knighting protecting from?

[AxleGreaser]

Why are more people not voting Dave?
Even if you hate Boon for his derptitude play - Dave was doing the same things and kind of being shifty about it at the same time.

VOTE: davesaz

[AxleGreaser]

@Nero wasn't it kinda your bases on your defence of him against Axl ? At least that is the idea I got

@Axl What up with the naked vote ?

I got bored with posting reasons when I vote, theyre in the thread. Just read my ISO. (LOL)

people I most want to lynch over Thor today
VOTE: Garmr (but the rest of the wagon ran away, one person I penciled in for it fly said meh explictly)
VOTE: dave (Just noticed tier ran away from this one... rats)
VOTE: GM
VOTE: Nero (because its currently funniest. vote4242 vote4304!! 4306!!!) (If I count right a 3 man wagon on Nero.)

(BTW Fonz don't ask the obv question, I probably wont tell you. Just assume i could post 500 words of waffle that look like reasons(because they are) . kthx)

[AxleGreaser]

ok wait was the hammer fake ???

Unvote

Err yeah ..duh. (it would be suicide as any alignment to do that without the claim, unless you hit scum, and he hadnt been certain thor was scum before so whered the certainty come from. AKA non-sense)

Ok.
next step. Thor will still get lynched at dead line unless there is another wagon.
So vote some one, like dunno...., maybe the guy you are scum reading?

[AxleGreaser]

actually cant help myself

Spoiler: nero reasons links

Early D1. reasons (ask fonz what awas decent at 1119 (IIRC I saw stuff but did say anything (was busy))


weak kneed limp wristed pushes. 2600

Contrary to his memory he argued several points in defence of Boon. 2975 has a spoiler with links back to what he said. and it just keeps going.... 3026

3383 discrepancy between how bad NC claims the pereV case is today (horrible) and how much he said or did anything about that.
3541 << example of explicit (convenient) shift in how the PereV case was viewed. (3576 3580 3581
3585

Scummy ground shifting Bullshit.

and then there is the intent to hammer stuff (for the purpose of getting a claim(intent)) from just before

(oh and PS. once scum start flipping try checking out my ISO for chainsaw action)

[AxleGreaser]

Next is Beast Tier is voting for him could go for that but I am not seeing light there either

Might as well give it a shot though lucky number 3 ?

but why that wagon?

[AxleGreaser]

I've been willing to pl you since d1 and I still don't care if you die but getting you to hurry up and claim is moving the game along.

My bad, that sounds super pro-town when you explain it like that.

BTW The PL since D1 is more

scummy ground shifting bullshit

.
Earlier when i called him out for wanting to PL you for a case on PereV that was (on D2 according to him) all sorts of horrible...

his best case point was, he voted you D1, {no mention of PL at all.....}
his D1 evaluation of the case was

ok well...TBH that case doesn't sway me but ok, lets say that I'm wrong and PV is scum. Who are the non PV scum in this game?

yet on D2 he is beating the bushes looking for PL voters for thor (over a case that was described as "doesnt sway me")

I'd pl this slot

<thor>

. His case on PV yesterday was all sorts of horrible

more scummy ground shifting bullshit.

[AxleGreaser]

He(

?)

was always my third pick. He(

?

) lurked the whole game and the little he spoke coincidentaly when mentioned/votes was meh
Btw it seems I was remembering right that he defended Boon. He(

?

) did defend him when you(axle) said town shouldn't give him(boon) a free pass on the VI meta right ? Cause if so we do have a contradiction here.

I am confused.

Who do you claim did that

?

(name please)
then who are you voting?

[AxleGreaser]

I also don't think that Thor is an easy mislynch.

Indeed you dont, you claim believe he is

I'd pl this

<thor>

slot.

[AxleGreaser]

He(

?)

was always my third pick. He(

?

)

lurked the whole game and the little he spoke coincidentaly when mentioned/votes was meh

Btw it seems I was remembering right that he defended Boon. He(

?

) did defend him when you(axle) said town shouldn't give him(boon) a free pass on the VI meta right ? Cause if so we do have a contradiction here.

I am confused.

Who do you claim did that

?

(name please)
then who are you voting?

Beast did that.

And I am voting beast right now

So you really mean

He(

beast?)

was always my third pick. He(

beast?

) lurked the whole game and the little he spoke coincidentaly when mentioned/votes was meh
Btw it seems I was remembering right that he(

nero?

) defended Boon. He(

nero?

) did defend him when you(axle) said town shouldn't give him(boon) a free pass on the VI meta right ? Cause if so we do have a contradiction here.

and your actual reason for your third best pick is "

lurked the whole game and the little he spoke coincidentaly when mentioned/votes was meh

" (active lurker?)

whereas you have your current points on Nero?

You seemed unfocused and fuzzy...

[AxleGreaser]

I also don't think that Thor is an easy mislynch.

Indeed you dont, you claim believe he is

I'd pl this

<thor>

slot.

Me being

willing to PL Thor

'cause

I'm unsure on him

=//=my belief in how hard/easy he is to lynch.

Sorry WAT
you PL NULL reads (== unsure on him?)

[AxleGreaser]

You are also retroactively claiming that I was scummy on d1 despite not saying anything until I attacked you. Still ok with pling Axle.

Nope. I said ask FONZ.

I indicated i thought i saw stuff. But indicated I was busy.
(which also indicates its not major, or it would have breached the busy doing other things level)

You like the saying you will PL people schtick. It saves you having to actual claim scum intent on anything you read.

[AxleGreaser]

It saves you having to actual claim scum intent on anything you read.

This is also false. I have scum reads, I posted them in my last list. I know you know this 'cause you quoted me.

Most

of my reasoning is in thread or in my pt so if you knew I had scum reads why would you lie and claim that I don't? And if you didn't know/understand something. Why not just ask?

and yet with all those scum reads and reasons you claim to have

Me being willing to

PL Thor 'cause I'm unsure on him

=//=my belief in how hard/easy he is to lynch.

you wan to PL Thor

because

your unsure on him

You may be selling this stuff but i am not buying it.

[AxleGreaser]

Might sheep

Oh gawd no youre sheeping,
not PLing,
not lynching because on D2 you suddenly noticed the PereV case was all kinds of horrible.

yeah Ok, sure.

[AxleGreaser]

@NEro

I plan to get to Lylo on this, because everything I said makes sense.

Scum have to get past lylo to win.

Why if you are town are you planning that town will ever be at lylo

?
It may all make sense to you. Maybe not to everyone else though.

Boon play the game not just your purposeful VI meta.

I really like the thought process of this post. Axle may be noisy in thread, but gems like this give me the impression that he isn't scum.

whiteknight the derp town more.

(as no one was wking boon there)

How do you know the derp is town?

If the Derp is known to you to be town (and you are town), why cant that just be a read by another towny?

As you seem quite convinced the derp is town, whats the white knighting protecting from?

[AxleGreaser]

vote:Thor

Finally remembered that you still

found me scummy

, eh?

Sorry I missed it

@Thor

When did he say that?

---

I only saw

Me being willing to PL Thor 'cause I'm unsure on him

unsure

I mostly wanted you to claim

want you to claim

Just 'cause I'm not a fluff monkey like TSO, Thor or Axle

Thinks Thor is a

fluff monkey

... (is that inherently scummy, and are these people different when town... appears not to matter/be considered) (hence assume this is PL not alignment related)

Would

pl

Thor

A way that is not too absurd to be considered that Nero can be curently trying and work out Thors alignment.

Spoiler: This spoiler contains Axle_Logic <open at own risk>

Ok so nero made this post.

This is my first game with Flubber. Him being easily mislynchable doesn't mean he's town here. I also don't think that Thor is an easy mislynch.

Nero does not think Thor is an easy mislynch.
If we assume that: Nero is town and not scum making a truthful heartfelt comment about how hard it has been to try and mislynch Thor...
and we assume that Nero is trying to PL thor for the policy reasons that Thor is a fluff monkey, and nero is unsure of him (null read)

If Nero succeeds in PLing Thor for those lame arsed policy reasons and Thor is not an easy mislynch then the fact that he succeeds must mean Thor is not being mislynched (because that isn't easy) and is thus actually scum!!!!
Thus Thor will think Thor is scum if and only if he PL's him for being an (unsure horrible fluff monkey) !!!!

Reading the above back I need to say two things. In trying desperately to find any semblance of Nero actually saying thor is scum I have lost contact with reality.
I am not currently drunk but I think I ought be, and if I get drunk I will stop posting as Thor PL's drunk posters. (I might even tend to scum read them and vote them, and that could be embarrassing as I also tend to scum read and vote self voters too.)
It is however a good thing I dont scum read and vote fluff monkeys or Id be in deep fluff monkey shit.

If you(reader) have saner way, that you think Nero is actually

scum reading

thor please tell me because I am already waist deep in fluff monkey shit.

[AxleGreaser]

(If you have oustanding questions that are important to you and working about who is scum as opposed to who you want to PL please indicate which they were.)

@NEro

(this is a reply to 4146)

I really like the thought process of this post. Axle may be noisy in thread, but gems like this give me the impression that he isn't scum.

whiteknight the derp town more.

(as no one was wking boon there)

How do you know the derp is town?

If the Derp(Axle) is known to you to be town (and you are town), why cant that just be a read by another towny?

As you seem quite convinced the derp(Axle) is town, whats the white knighting protecting from?

I also wasn't saying that anyone was whiteknighing Boon, I was accusing IZ of whitenighting you.

scum often whiteknight town/folks not on thier team to get on their good side.

Ok so you have now clarified who you were saying the derp was

Now please answer

How do you know the derp(Axle) is town?

If the Derp(Axle) is known to you to be town (and you are town), why cant that just be a read by another towny?

As you seem quite convinced the derp(Axle) is town, whats the white knighting protecting from?

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: EBWOP in the AxleLogic (that usually makes it unparsable :(

Thus

Thor

nero will think Thor is scum if and only if he(nero) PL's him(thor) for being an (unsure horrible fluff monkey) !!!!

[AxleGreaser]

Sorry I missed it

@Thor

When did he say that?

I was actually calling his late vote in at that stage scummy because he "remembered" that he found me scummy.
Either he should have found me scummy for the claim, or for some explanations about the claim and voted me then.
Instead he sort of randomly waited some period of time and then voted me - that's feth weird.

Err yeah except as I indicated I dont believe

Nero

has even yet actually literally "found you scummy"

His reads list explicitly did not include you as scummy,

just

(PLable)

since then to him you have been <

hes unsure of you

(4356),

wants thor to claim

(4214),

fluff monkey

(4318)>,

TBMK absolutely no sign that he thinks/says that you are scum, or doing scummy things.

So no I dont accept he remembered he found you scummy, I cant find any time in the past (since the PL read) or present when he did find you scummy and scum reads you.

Vote you, yes, he does that, scum reads you.... nah.

Spoiler: sig

(Oh yeah I might just change my Sig to: Axle(IAmNotAnAnimalIAmAFluffMonkey)Greaser // still cogitating // sigs is spr srs bz)

Also @Thread why are more people not voting Nero the policy lyncher?

@Thor so do actually think the dave wagon is a goer?

How about you vote Nero, the guy that wants to PL you but hasn't even summoned the courage to say "I think Thor is scum and I want to vote him for that reason."
I ran out of plausible town stories for Nero's play a little while ago.
How about voting Nero or tell me why Dave is worse and more likely to get lynched? 4335 States my position at that time fairly succinctly.

[AxleGreaser]

All this was answered in my previous post but I'll help you out here.

Utter rubbish, poppycock, balderdash, fluff monkey dung.
You made statements that are about Boon

The only part of your post at all related to my questions that you claim to have answered is this

I was accusing IZ of whitenighting you.

scum often whiteknight town/folks not on thier team to get on their good side.

Which is pure mafia theoretical fluff.

If IZ is scum I think this points heavily to you town. Why should I not think that?

Well this is not what you original statement meant at all.

You said

I plan to get to Lylo on this, because everything I said makes sense.

Scum have to get past lylo to win.

Why if you are town are you planning that town will ever be at lylo

?
It may all make sense to you. Maybe not to everyone else though.

Boon play the game not just your purposeful VI meta.

I really like the thought process of this post. Axle may be noisy in thread, but gems like this give me the impression that he isn't scum.

whiteknight the derp town(Axle) more.

That statement refers to me as derp town as if you already know.

he's squirming.

I think so too, but still no ones (not enough) voting.
What the hell is wrong with town, everyone have shy bladders or what?

[AxleGreaser]

is town motivated and correct town play.

A PL Lynch list that long, for players with filter and content that size, is according to you

"correct town play"

Would pl

Axle
T S O
Thor
The Fonz
beastcharizard

not even in my nightmares is that correct town play

that you then want to PL Thor because '

you are unsure of him

' and he is a '

fluff monkey

'...

Spoiler: What is a fluff monkey (more AxleLogic?)

BTW do you even know what a fluff monkey is? It is not monkey fluff:
This and not this is a fluff monkey. And FYI: as an AxleGreaser I say being a FluffMonkey is an honourable existence, if all men could say as much it would be better world.

[AxleGreaser]

keep ignoring the fuck out of 4358.

Well I would as i thought he questions pointless but as you claim they are important, I will answer them here in spoiler

Spoiler: Nero important to be answered questions

Early D1. reasons (ask fonz what awas decent at 1119 (IIRC I saw stuff but did say anything (was busy))


weak kneed limp wristed pushes. 2600

Contrary to his memory he argued several points in defence of Boon. 2975 has a spoiler with links back to what he said. and it just keeps going.... 3026

3383 discrepancy between how bad NC claims the pereV case is today (horrible) and how much he said or did anything about that.
3541 << example of explicit (convenient) shift in how the PereV case was viewed. (3576 3580 3581
3585 Scummy ground shifting Bullshit.

and then there is the intent to hammer stuff (for the purpose of getting a claim(intent)) from just before

your "reasons" are bad.

not a question

I thought you were scummy for claiming that Boons contradicted himself, when he didn't. Your reaction was to start questioning me and treating me like a scum read, which is the definition of a OMGUS attack. Yes, I know that OMGUS does come from town but it also comes from scum and I think its hard to tell the difference between the two. IF you called someone scum and they attack you back, would you think they are scum or town?

Yes and no. As it depends on intent. I have developed strong town reads on people because they attacked me. (If they are town they have to try and work out my alignment somehow)
I have developed strong scum reads on people because they neither attacked me, nor worked out my alignment, but somehow just knew.
As for your point I frequently check out people who are scum reading me, one advantage of doing it at that time is they have no excuse to run away and not talk to me.

Yea, I never said that I didn't defend Boons. Now I did say that I'm not using his VI status to call him town. Is that what you are talking about? If so, there's a big difference.

The rest of the stuff about my belief that the PV case was lame and that I contradicted myself is more rubbish.

You are also retroactively claiming that I was scummy on d1 despite not saying anything until I attacked you. Still ok with pling Axle.

No questions here, and as you claim you are PLing me then me answering your questions so you can determine my alignment is inherently pointless as you claim you are PLing me not because of determining my alignment.

BTW Which policy are you PLing me for? Is it on the wiki (or one that only exits in your head).
I looked up fluff monkey on the mafia scum wiki and it wasn't there.

Please show me what was relevant about getting these questions answered.

[AxleGreaser]

Ahh when you kept quoting the same post with one bit bold, I had assumed the bolding was in the original.

There is this Marvellous thing that we fluff monkeys invented, its called words. When you add then to posts, they convey meaning. try it.

[AxleGreaser]

my bad. I thought it was fairly obvious that my bolding a question and then reposting it when I never got a response was me expecting an answer to said question. I just keep forgetting that the education system is real bad these days.

Ahh when you kept quoting the same post with one bit bold, I had assumed the bolding was in the original.

I am sorry your schooling was so bad for you.
My schooling was so long ago now I dont suffer from this bad modern schooling thing of which you speak.

I for instance don't tend to clip out the inconvenient parts of a post, so as to make cheap shot points.

[AxleGreaser]

I thought you were scummy for claiming that Boons contradicted himself, when he didn't. Your reaction was to start questioning me and treating me like a scum read, which is the definition of a OMGUS attack. Yes, I know that OMGUS does come from town but it also comes from scum and I think its hard to tell the difference between the two. IF you called someone scum and they attack you back, would you think they are scum or town?

Yes and no. As it depends on intent. I have developed strong town reads on people because they attacked me. (If they are town they have to try and work out my alignment somehow)
I have developed strong scum reads on people because they neither attacked me, nor worked out my alignment, but somehow just knew.
As for your point I frequently check out people who are scum reading me, one advantage of doing it at that time is they have no excuse to run away and not talk to me.

k. Explain what you think my intent was.

When?

You asked about how to read situation when the person being question responds in what may be characterised as an OMGUS manner.
That does not match the above situation where you describe period when you initially questioned me.

Remember that words thing, you need more of them. (go on feel the fluff monkey rise up within you)

Also fair warming, (and an obvious one)
I cant discern your intent in every single interaction. Sometimes I get a clear read sometimes I dont.

Things I read as scummy motivated.
I read that you habitually wanting to Pl lots of people, as per your reads list.
That you have not said you think Thor is scum, but actively want to Pl him for an ustated policy that appears to be related to

His D1 case on PereV was all sorts of horrible (but you only pointed that out on D2, didnt say so on D1, and never described what and how it was horrible)
basically all the stuff in 4401 strikes me as very bad play and much more likely to come from scum Nero than town Nero.

Your intent is to play on getting "Thor lynched for emotional payback reasons" instead of "Thor is scum because reasons".
The vagueness of the policy your lynching him (non existence as a specified thing) allows/facilitates people to go yeah lets get thor without really thinking about why.
How is it plausible people can just vote thor because? (unspecified bullshit reasons?)
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... arently.29
This wiki link is there because yeah that happens.

[AxleGreaser]

page top for great justice

vote Nero now for great justice.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: serious my arse question

is town motivated and correct town play.

A PL Lynch list that long, for players with filter and content that size, is according to you

"correct town play"

Would pl

Axle
T S O
Thor
The Fonz
beastcharizard

not even in my nightmares is that correct town play

that you then want to PL Thor because '

you are unsure of him

' and he is a '

fluff monkey

'...

I do have a serious question here. Do you even know what the term policy lynch means? The wiki definition is "Most commonly, it describes the lynch of a player who is not found to be particularly scummy, but because the player's bad play will hurt the town later on." but IMO I'm including players that are a little bit scummy and are hard to read 'cause their play is bad. In EVERY game, no one is going to get all the lynches they want all the time, these are essentially my compromise lynches.

Yes.

Wow what a useful penetrating question.

However I have things I want to say.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _All_Liars is a policy lynch
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6253470 is a drunk policy lynch
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6274021 is a post about policy lynches in general and how they are not such a dirty thing
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5907654 Here is axle posting a hammer derp hammer policy lynch policy (it was game specific but I also have the policy it may be retroactively invoked in any game I play)(probably with the same safeguards (balance of power).)
So yeah I know of many specific instances of legitimate policy town motivated policy lynch stances.

4121 is a scummy non specific mealy mouthed PL list that, can only have the intent of being able to jump on and off convenient lynches without the need to post reasoning for why they are scum or town at all.

and look Nero has been on and off the Thor lynch with never a statement that he considers Thor scummy.