NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

Slandaar
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Post Post #4500  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:24 am

In post 4496, Shiro wrote:Yea but we could debate he did so on purpuse so you will think it is not a good survival tactic making you think he is legit while infact he isnt.

More wine?

Who actually does that? no-one. It sounds good but in actual practice doesn't happen.

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Post Post #4501  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:25 am

In post 4500, Slandaar wrote:
In post 4496, Shiro wrote:Yea but we could debate he did so on purpuse so you will think it is not a good survival tactic making you think he is legit while infact he isnt.

More wine?

Who actually does that? no-one. It sounds good but in actual practice doesn't happen.

I meant it as a joke xD

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Post Post #4502  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:08 pm

I really don't like the way Thor is dancing around reading me.

In post 4405, Boonskiies wrote:Nero's the play toDay, boys. I'll eat my pants if he somehow (he won't) flips town.

No, it's still Thor. Thor is still today's lynch.

In post 4431, TierShift wrote:
In post 4325, The Fonz wrote:Weak town read. See the above. I suspected him early D1, but he does get more purposeful, even if I didn't like the direction he took. I see no glaring contradictions or anything.

Because he's purposeful, he's town? And he doesn't contradict, so he's town?

That's not really trying to look at his alignment, is it?

Fonz/Nero/Thor y/y?

In post 4435, Slandaar wrote:
In post 4365, goodmorning wrote:1-Shot JK is totally a Scum PR for when the Scum investigative finds a Town PR

Why did he use it n1 then?

Or are you saying he is lying about that?

He said himself he usually dies early. I think either multiball, SK, or some Vig paranoia would happily cause him to use it early, if he did.

In post 4436, Nero Cain wrote:Thor, who was your second biggest scumread on d1?

this question tho

In post 4494, Slandaar wrote:Well I mean we could debate the merits of the claim; surely if he were scum he would claim full JK instead of 1-shot as 1-shot which has used it's shot is useless and really is no better than claiming VT.

Not a good survival tactic hm?

He said himself that he doesn't fakeclaim PRs, only alignments.
EFFORT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT
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Post Post #4503  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:22 pm

In post 4502, goodmorning wrote:I really don't like the way Thor is dancing around reading me.

What else do you expect, I am calling you nullish with a scum lean and I support the idea of lynching you for playing so terribly.

You, meanwhile, have tunneled me since Day 1 on a case of 'gut' and done little else than that.

What exactly am I supposed to get a read off of you for? The bad case, the tunnel, or the whine that I haven't read you?
And how much more of a read do you need than 'terrible play - would lynch'?

This is further weird from you.

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Post Post #4504  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:07 pm

In post 4497, Thor665 wrote:
In post 4492, davesaz wrote:I believe that Thor's claim is fake, and he's scum.

I would point out in my meta that I've never fakeclaimed a role except to claim VT.
So, the claim is real - the actual debate is whether I am a scum JKer or a town one.

What's your case on me again?
I know it's none of the earlier stuff because you already admitted to basically making up the value of half of that. So what is the current case? I honestly have no idea.


"Have never" as a meta claim is a handy defense the first time you do someting.
"Would never", which you're not saying here, would be trust tell territory for me.
Therefore it proves nothing about this claim.

Your overall behavior looks like scum motivation to me. Taking up the majority of D1 with the multiball argument. The sequence of attacks on people who question your attacks on other people. The linguistic technicalities -- whether you scum read Muffin for using, or not using, or talking about "quality" (whatever the detail is) the attack was connected to the word "quality". And when someone jumps you for that technicality, that person is scum too.

I think you're the type of player who could plan to get yourself run up to L-1 so that you can make a fake claim and then skate for the rest of the game. That should be flattering, since not many people would have the cajones to try to pull it off. But I believe that's exactly what you're doing.

You talked a non-trivial amount about "the GM wagon I'm pushing" when in fact there was no such wagon. Oh, wait a second, there was a wagon by your definition. Before you ask, no I'm not going back and pulling up quotes, mostly because I'm working my butt off this week between home and job.

I tried to get you to respond specifically to having a magic feeling that GM is scum, and you not only blew it off but actively discouraged it -- then you came right back and claimed that GM was indeed the target of your ability. How convenient that the target of your flake claim is the player I thought you had to mean, from earlier comments. That doesn't make your claim real though, because it opens the question of why, if you thought GM was "useless", would town use the ability that way? Why use that ability at all, before we know how many kills to expect? If you meant it to be protection, then why wouldn't you wait until someone claimed a role worth protecting? These are not WIFOM questions, they are serious. The claim can't be real -- a player of your stature would not use an ability this way.

General tone, general play, general feeling. It is more likely your actions are scum motivated than town.

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Post Post #4505  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:19 pm

In post 4484, reinoe wrote:EBWOP: Also thor was also pushing GM at the time. Again, if you think the GM push is scum motivated am I wrong in thinking that you should be putting your vote on thor? After all...

thor was pushing GM+JOSH thinks the GM Push is scum motivate=josh' vote should be on thor who doing things scum motivated.

Is the above equation wrong? Are you saying you think thor is town but axle is not? Please elaborate.


I don't have fully developed context of everyone's position in the game yet. I am starting to get a better understanding of how the thor/GM situation started. And after Thor's recent post I'm starting to think that Thor's position is more OMGUS on her part.

Axle's position seems more organic. If I'm going to point fingers at the GM wagon (that has interest and not votes) It seems like Axle is more the proprietor of GM scum than Thor. I think you would know that though, and point the finger that way instead.

This game is multiball right? I'm going to vote Dave right now and see if there's more to Axle than meet's the eye. I can't vote everyone calling for a GM wagon at once, but dave, slandaar, scripten, and Axel are more interesting to me in that situation than Thor is right now. And I'm voting Dave.
About WIFOM: Sometimes I just get thirsty and drink both glasses.

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Post Post #4506  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:32 pm

In post 4503, Thor665 wrote:
In post 4502, goodmorning wrote:I really don't like the way Thor is dancing around reading me.

What else do you expect, I am calling you nullish with a scum lean and I support the idea of lynching you for playing so terribly.

You, meanwhile, have tunneled me since Day 1 on a case of 'gut' and done little else than that.

What exactly am I supposed to get a read off of you for? The bad case, the tunnel, or the whine that I haven't read you?
And how much more of a read do you need than 'terrible play - would lynch'?

This is further weird from you.

Again with the misrepping?
1. My case on you has never included gut.
2. My case on you has expanded since D1 and now includes more than tone evidence.
3. I've expressed reads on multiple players and the desire to lynch people who aren't you. That's not really a tunnel any way you look at it.
4. You have yet to point out exactly how my play has been "terrible" or why you find that a "lean Scum". In fact, I don't think you've actually assigned any alignment stance to me until now; you've previously hidden behind "would lynch" which is in no way the same thing.
5. Please answer Nero's question: who was your second-place scumread D1?

@Josh: There were 2 kills last Night. This doesn't tell us whether multiball, SK, or Vig, nor does it tell us whether there could be a third killing role which we have not yet seen.
EFFORT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT
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Post Post #4507  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:38 pm

In post 4506, goodmorning wrote:5. Please answer Nero's question: who was your second-place scumread D1?


He did already. It was you.

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Post Post #4508  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:43 pm

In post 4504, davesaz wrote:"Have never" as a meta claim is a handy defense the first time you do someting.
"Would never", which you're not saying here, would be trust tell territory for me.
Therefore it proves nothing about this claim.

It does mean that if your case has any obligation for me lying about my role that you would need to justify why you think I would break a meta that I have held for *years* (a meta I hold because I think it is good play) and explain what changed my mind.

If not - then at least just explain how I'm scum who is a 1-shot JKer and work from there.

In post 4504, davesaz wrote:Your overall behavior looks like scum motivation to me. Taking up the majority of D1 with the multiball argument.

I did not do that.

In post 4504, davesaz wrote:The linguistic technicalities -- whether you scum read Muffin for using, or not using, or talking about "quality" (whatever the detail is) the attack was connected to the word "quality". And when someone jumps you for that technicality, that person is scum too.

:lol:
No - it doesn't work like that. You are still spouting off about something while making no sense about what was actually said.
Yes, in a made up world where I attacked him in some made up form maybe I'm scum - but if that didn't happen then what the hell is your case?
He attacked me for using the word quality when I never did and I asked him to back up the claim. That was the "attack". It's not really an attack. It also isn't scummy to ask someone to back up something they made up about you - it's actually a normal response and now you're calling it scummy.

In post 4504, davesaz wrote:I think you're the type of player who could plan to get yourself run up to L-1 so that you can make a fake claim and then skate for the rest of the game. That should be flattering, since not many people would have the cajones to try to pull it off. But I believe that's exactly what you're doing.

I probably could do that.
It would literally be a first for me - and I've won praise on my scum game without playing as poorly as that and have explicitly never shown a desire to ever skate on any sort of claim - so I'm not sure why I would decide to do this now.
It actually is the opposite of what I consider both good town and good scum play, so it's kind of weird if that's my plan.

In post 4504, davesaz wrote:I tried to get you to respond specifically to having a magic feeling that GM is scum, and you not only blew it off but actively discouraged it -- then you came right back and claimed that GM was indeed the target of your ability. How convenient that the target of your flake claim is the player I thought you had to mean, from earlier comments.

:neutral:
Whut?

You're claiming you read me as an investigative of some stripe (illogically) that I denied this - and then I revealed that I was not an investigative, and that somehow this is scummy because the target was the same?
No.

In post 4504, davesaz wrote:Why use that ability at all, before we know how many kills to expect?

Because we learn that info Day 3 regardless of which order I do it in - so this is meaningless.

In post 4504, davesaz wrote:If you meant it to be protection

I didn't.

In post 4504, davesaz wrote:The claim can't be real -- a player of your stature would not use an ability this way.

Yeah, apparently I would either randomly wait a day for no gain, or would use it as a protective shot in a game I lacked town reads.
It's silly I didn't do either of those, really - super scummy too.

This case is very empty and haphazardly put together.
Basically i went from not voting to voting due to claiming a PR - a PR claim that is pretty darn neutral in the grand scheme. Even your raised issues are, at best, that you disagree with how I played it. Well...how does that actually make me scum as opposed to someone who plays differently than you? Also, if you think I'm such a brilliant player - why aren't you questioning if maybe it's you who play badly and I'm doing exactly the most solid option play?

The case doesn't make sense.
You're also still pegging me for "tone" while clearly not having read my posts.
That's screwy as hell and I read it as scummy.

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Post Post #4509  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:46 pm

In post 4506, goodmorning wrote:
In post 4503, Thor665 wrote:
In post 4502, goodmorning wrote:I really don't like the way Thor is dancing around reading me.

What else do you expect, I am calling you nullish with a scum lean and I support the idea of lynching you for playing so terribly.

You, meanwhile, have tunneled me since Day 1 on a case of 'gut' and done little else than that.

What exactly am I supposed to get a read off of you for? The bad case, the tunnel, or the whine that I haven't read you?
And how much more of a read do you need than 'terrible play - would lynch'?

This is further weird from you.

Again with the misrepping?
1. My case on you has never included gut.
2. My case on you has expanded since D1 and now includes more than tone evidence.
3. I've expressed reads on multiple players and the desire to lynch people who aren't you. That's not really a tunnel any way you look at it.
4. You have yet to point out exactly how my play has been "terrible" or why you find that a "lean Scum". In fact, I don't think you've actually assigned any alignment stance to me until now; you've previously hidden behind "would lynch" which is in no way the same thing.
5. Please answer Nero's question: who was your second-place scumread D1?

@Josh: There were 2 kills last Night. This doesn't tell us whether multiball, SK, or Vig, nor does it tell us whether there could be a third killing role which we have not yet seen.

1. Tone = gut - feel free to switch the words, it makes absolutely no difference.
2. "Evidence" is a pretty awkward word to use - the "evidence" is you quoting posts and going 'see! Thor wouldn't do this as town!" Then when I question you on them you get awkward and mumble a lot while clarifying nothing.
3. I look at it as a tunnel, you may feel free to disagree. I don't even care to describe tunneling as scummy - but you have spent so much time locked on your gut tone read that there is basically nothing else to read from you.
4. I have pointed it out many times - you can disagree, but to claim it doesn't exist is a lie or idiocy. "Would lynch" is very much a claim on alignment - and I offered a read on you back on Day 1.
5. I already answered this - thank you for proving you're not reading my posts and instead are emptily attacking me.

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Post Post #4510  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:00 pm

In post 4507, Scripten wrote:
In post 4506, goodmorning wrote:5. Please answer Nero's question: who was your second-place scumread D1?

He did already. It was you.

I missed that.

In that case, it's pretty fucking interesting he never said so, eh?
EFFORT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT
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Post Post #4511  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:03 pm

In post 4502, goodmorning wrote:Fonz/Nero/Thor y/y?

ahahahaha!
#banallhydras

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Post Post #4512  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:12 pm

Votecount 2.15

[4]Thor665: goodmorning, reinoe, Flubbernugget, davesaz
[3]beastcharizard: TierShift, Shiro, Izariael
[3]davesaz: Thor665, Josh_B, AxleGreaser
[2]Boonskiies: Slandaar, The Fonz
[2]Nero Cain: Boonskiies, T S O
[1]AxleGreaser: Nero Cain
[1]Josh_B: Scripten

[1] Not Voting: beastcharizard

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline: (expired on 2014-11-19 18:27:52)

Mod Notes
None.
Last edited by Aegor on Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Currently partying at the M A S Q U E R A D E -- a Large Normal for 21 revelers.

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Post Post #4513  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:50 pm

In post 4510, goodmorning wrote:In that case, it's pretty Smurfing interesting he never said so, eh?

Yeah, I was super secretive about my issue with your play in this game - I should learn to express loathing more clearly in the future.

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Post Post #4514  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:32 pm

@JoshB please clarify. (question is at the end of the spoiler.)
Spoiler: currently only curiosity and accountability
In post 4505, Josh_B wrote:I don't have fully developed context of everyone's position in the game yet. I am starting to get a better understanding of how the thor/GM situation started. And after Thor's recent post I'm starting to think that Thor's position is more OMGUS on her part.

Axle's position seems more organic. If I'm going to point fingers at the GM wagon (that has interest and not votes) It seems like Axle is more the proprietor of GM scum than Thor. I think you would know that though, and point the finger that way instead.


I am confused about what the above means in terms of alignment.

Are you suggesting that, when you point fingers at the Gm wagon you are pointing fingers at who is scum on it? hence you are pointing at me?

I am confused because, my best guess is that (If I was an outsider looking at this instead of a participant)
I too would think my play more organic and the read on GM to thus be genuine and based on reading the thread. So when Gm flips scum, Axle wasnt bussing. And if on the less likely than random chance GM flips town, Axle was mistaken.
(but hey I have read my PM so...I am biased... a lot.)

So your observations match mine (tick) but I cant really tell for sure what your conclusion is.

I get the sense, but you don't appear to have said, that you are evaluating the GM wagon for finger pointing purposes, under the assumption GM is town.

@Josh B
Please clarify what pointing fingers means, and whether or not it is under the assumption ... if GM flips town/scum (or is independent of that).

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Post Post #4515  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:57 pm

In post 4479, Thor665 wrote:For the record, because no one else was apparently willing to read (skim) it and offer a thought.

For the record, I have done so far and will continue to read everything and its context several times. So thats +2
If nothing else:
yeah but now TSO and Boonskiies have something to work with if they are town and really want their wagon lynched. :)

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Post Post #4516  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:07 pm

Spoiler: Thor, to or about me, D1
In post 65, Thor665 wrote:
In post 61, goodmorning wrote:Yes, I'm in a Neighbourhood with 3 others and Cho. No, I don't think we can say there's absolutely Scum in the Neighbourhood, though it is likely.

Maybe.
It's multi-neighborhood though.
Kind of works with the Masquerade theme I suppose.

In post 557, Thor665 wrote:
In post 555, goodmorning wrote:On the contrary. The existence of a Neighbourhood of such size implies that there is probably a Scum in it (though not definitively, as I've said).
In post 541, Muffin wrote:I would like to know, for my own scumhunting purposes, which players are in a neighbourhood with which others.

Because sometimes neighbourhoods result in weird coordination that can look like a scumteam but is not.

So... yeah.

I for one think there's some mileage in keeping some folks secret.

I did a bit of snippage here to put the thoughts together.
Yo, Goodmorning, why can you both believe that the neighborhood(s?) are likely to have scum in them but *also* be in support of keeping them secret?
Like, what's the benefit to town exactly?

In post 671, Thor665 wrote:
In post 669, goodmorning wrote:I'm getting quite a lot off this multiball bit though, so that's good.

At least you're able to admit it's active scumhunting happening - half the player list hasn't figured that out yet.

In post 722, Thor665 wrote:
In post 715, goodmorning wrote:ey

ey tier

you wanna stop kissing Smurf for five seconds and read thor again?

After he does I look forward to hearing what he should have seen.

A neighborhood just got claimed, how are you feeling about that?

In post 733, Thor665 wrote:
In post 730, T S O wrote:Meh.
I just got the feeling he expected people to praise the revealing of it or something.

That has less to do with the revealing and more to do with his motivation for the revealing. I would note that I was amongst the first to reveal neighbor info and have also not remotely indicated that I consider that a pro-town move. I have also asked people who consider full neighbor reveal as anti-town to explain why (with rather lackluster effort from Goodmorning to do so) and have not indicated that as anti-town or pro-town on their part either.

If your issue is Scripten expecting town vibes - then talk to him about that. The neighborhood thing is not the issue, the mentality and motivation are.

In post 742, Thor665 wrote:
In post 736, Nero Cain wrote:Who are you in a hood with?

This does not fill me with hope for your reading comprehension.

I am holding off on revealing until Goodmorning manages to get back to me with explanations on the fear of revealing and why it is pro-scum in some way.

In post 738, TierShift wrote:Izzy looks like he believes in that strongly felt nullreads are more of a commitment than soft townreads, he really does. I was wondering why you didn't see that and instead focused on the sense he wasn't making and calling him scummy over it.

Okay, well, first off, that you saw and answered my comment makes me wonder why you didn't address Goodmorning's whine to you, clarify?

As to my answer to this - if he believes it then he meets the qualifier for terrible town, and if he doesn't he meets the qualifier for scum. I agree that both of those states can exist and disagree that either one makes him not a good lynch option. I am proud that you can perfectly read his attitudes, I do not have this skill and am left to scumhunt him. You shouldn't hold that against other people. Your raised issue appears to be that "Thor is scumhunting" now - because your issue is that I didn't immediately read him as town...is that right?

In post 744, Thor665 wrote:
In post 743, TierShift wrote:What gm whine?

Iso feature...
Though it just happened like a page ago and was addressed to you.
Basically a request to stop buddying me and re-read me - you're clearly reading the current stuff so why didn't you address it?

In post 799, Thor665 wrote:
In post 782, goodmorning wrote:
In post 742, Thor665 wrote:I am holding off on revealing until Goodmorning manages to get back to me with explanations on the fear of revealing and why it is pro-scum in some way.

I've already spoken as much as I want to speak on the subject.
It's a little late now, anyway.

Well...when you're asked "why shouldn't we, I am curious?"
And your answer is "because it be bad!" and nothing else...what did you expect?
If you gave a hang you did a bad showing for yourself and the belief system you claim to espouse.

In post 831, Thor665 wrote:
In post 825, goodmorning wrote:
In post 801, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 782, goodmorning wrote:Two, actually. Vaguely annoyed.

Why are you annoyed that two hoods got claimed?

Repeat: I've already spoken about this.
Repeat: I don't care to speak any more about it.

So...no, you haven't answered it, but you refuse to.

In post 825, goodmorning wrote:Note to self:
It is not polite to ask Thor to Smurf off, even if you say please.

Note to self: it is tough to get Goodmorning to state why she wants things not done because it will aid scum...'somehow'...I think, I'm actually inventing the excuse. It's the only one that makes sense, really.

In post 828, goodmorning wrote:Does anyone know whether Thor whinges as much as Town as he does as Scum?

Are you trying to be passive aggressive? There is a thing known as my player profile - y'know, click on my name, look at all my posted in games, have near infinite meta available.

In post 868, Thor665 wrote:
In post 859, goodmorning wrote:
In post 858, goodmorning wrote:Am meta-ing Thor RIGHT NOW. Will conclude what I conclude when I conclude it.

O554 - Town Thor, no whinge
NY169 - Scum Thor (Casso), whinge

:lol:
I'm not laughing at the read so much, but because I went to look at the two games to try to understand what you would classify as which (I couldn't figure it out) but I realized one of the games was the birth of one of my favortite snappy comebacks, the ol' 20 questions remark when people are talking in circles.

In post 959, Thor665 wrote:
In post 954, goodmorning wrote:You're Scum and all the potential wagons are on Town, is that it?
Did I guess right?

I would say this sort of thing even if one of them was my scumbuddy, but, sure, if I was scum and they were all town I'd say the same. I'd also say it if I was town and with slightly more regularity depending on how much I thought I could grind town.

That said - your comment does nothing to address the purpose of my commentary nor does it actually suggest it is bad in any ay.
Good job being bad town or meh scum, I suppose. :lol:

In post 960, Thor665 wrote:
In post 859, goodmorning wrote:
In post 858, goodmorning wrote:Am meta-ing Thor RIGHT NOW. Will conclude what I conclude when I conclude it.

O554 - Town Thor, no whinge
NY169 - Scum Thor (Casso), whinge
^These are the ones I've seen so they're the ones I've started with.

She never linked them, but she did mention them.

@Muffin

In post 1022, Thor665 wrote:goodmorning - terrible...alignment uncertain ;) Meh, I'd help lynch her and consider it worthwhile probably.

In post 1033, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1029, Muffin wrote:
In post 1022, Thor665 wrote:Muffin - Not fond of hard Thor defense. Call it mildly mild on the scum side.

Don't misconstrue things please.

Attacking a really weak case on someone does not equate to "hard defending" that player.

You can consider yourself an ally of convenience if you like.

Nah. I'll agree Goodmorning's play is weaksauce, but you're attacking her logic here. There is nothing inherently scummy in having gut reads - town do it all the time, and you have not shown that Goodmorning wouldn't or doesn't do that.
You're thumping on her really aggressively for what is play that is easily either suck town or kinda weak scum, and it's your big push.

Now, maybe you're trying to read her, and that's your deal, but it does come off as weirdly defensive towards me, which makes me feel the potential of buddying and I think that leaves you deserving of a call out.
Heck, take me out of the equation and 'oddly aggressive attack on gut read' becomes your play and that's worth a narrowed set of eyes all by itself.
I do not disagree that Goodmorning is being bad - she assuredly is, and she's even playing it up like she has a plan (and well she might, but I bet it's pretty weaksauce once we see it and won't justify the lackluster play). That said - the level of your attack on it is not in proper relation to the level of her crime. So it's weird, and I find you scummy for it.

In post 1079, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1077, goodmorning wrote:eyyyyyyyyy vanity wagon got legitttt

Yeah, that wagon is super legit now - it just overflows with legitness and the power of scumhunting.

In post 1226, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1164, T S O wrote:I mean, when you asked goodmorning why they were scumreading you and you didn't get a satisfactory reply, you gave them a few jabs - surely you don't think I should just lie down while he so blatantly misreps me?

I also noted it was dumb and walked away - like you are being asked to do.

In post 1175, TierShift wrote:Explain this. He was pushing gm for a real reason for the scumread on you, remarking he didn't find gut/tone strong enough 35 pages in. That's not discrediting, nor is it buddying you. Explain how it is buddying.

That is discrediting - I know of many examples of town using gut that late into the game. Is Goodmorning known for *not* doing this? If so I will immediately retract the statement.
Otherwise it is simply a matter of opinion on the town tell, and I personally think anyone who plays like Muffin probably shouldn't be dinging gut reads.
It is buddying because I had been aware of the attack and had called it serious and he went whole hog at it. If I flipped scum, I would expect someone to consider him a scumbuddy to me for the defense - hence it is also buddying, because he's 'getting my back'.

In post 1268, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1260, goodmorning wrote:Do they not have a wagon because you townread them, or do you townread them because they don't have a wagon, I wonder.

:neutral:

Considering the only major wagon that exists is one that I built...what?
I mean, this doesn't even begin to make sense.
Though apparently you sorta agree it doesn't.

Why are you playing so terribly right now?
Should you be replacing out, or is this intentional?

In post 1279, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1271, goodmorning wrote:I literally cannot even begin to describe how hard this pinged.

I'm sorry that agreeing with you that your post was useless "pings" me.

In post 1271, goodmorning wrote:I have no real idea what you're talking about, but if this is an attempt to discredit me then I just got about 10000% more certain that I'm actually right.

I sort of feel you're discrediting yourself - you just admitted that your last five days have generated nothing.
I'm asking if you're suffering from out of game issues or if this is what we should expect from you.

That said, it is probably a discredit - because it's my stance that you are capable of playing better.

In post 1280, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1278, goodmorning wrote:Toby

I did.
It was...three results, and I don't follow the point.

omitted due to spoiler, follows lines of above post
In post 1291, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1288, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1279, Thor665 wrote:I sort of feel you're discrediting yourself - you just admitted that your last five days have generated nothing.

Really.


Reeeeeallly.

Yes.

In post 1288, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1281, Thor665 wrote:Walk me through what I'm supposed to see?

You're not supposed to see anything. That's the point.

You wanted us to iso you to show your lack of interaction with Toby, to show how you're on hold in trying to scumhunt him?
When did you decide you wanted to scumhunt him and why?

In post 1288, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1285, Thor665 wrote:In that post he did offer many reads and opinions.

I disagree.

Why?
Because "offering reads" is not really a matter of opinion, it is a factual state.

In post 1227, The Fonz wrote:[snip]


He then goes into a deeper Pere explanation.
However, what I see here is;

Pere = scum (plus multiple reasons)
He does call TSO v. Anemian 'nullish' via inference and openly questions the value of the case whether or not you like inference.
Scripten - town.
Izariel - town.
Dave - newb with potential to be town or scum but is considering him. (a fancy null read, basically)
Nero - scummy for reason stated, but a lesser read than Pere.
Boon - poor play, but don't want to lynch or see dead at this point and concider it worse play for scum (ergo - leaning town to some degree)

That is 5-7 reads depending how you want to qualify reads.
That is a post that contains reads - fact.
I suppose you can debate "many" but you can't really debate 25% of playerlist given reads on.
And at that point, what is your specific issue with him only having provided reads on around 25% of the player list?

In post 1292, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1290, goodmorning wrote:I could go through it and explain why I find it underwhelming but 1. WORDS and 2. Thor would probably butt in afterwards.

I'll butt un beforehand - maybe that will help :lol:

In post 1320, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1317, goodmorning wrote:This is better.

This is the *exact* sort of thing I have been saying to you that you were complaining was discrediting you and making me more scummy.
But when I point out that Nero isn't reading gak and playing poorly suddenly it's "better"
:neutral:
I'm good with the idea of lynching Goodmorning now.

In other news, you also didn't address any questions I asked you in my last big post communicating with you. The one I regret not seeing an answer to was a deeper explanation of saying Fonz wasn't offering reads, and also when, specifically, you decided to get a read off Toby by choosing not to interact with him.

Note that Thor was good with trying to lynch me many many posts before this.
In post 1325, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1323, goodmorning wrote:Nero is not actually reading words.
You also are not actually reading words, but it's harder to catch you at it.
I, on the other hand, am actually reading words. I'm just not writing very many. Subtle difference, I know.

:lol:

I'll accept that you're getting to my one question and will just 2nd Fonz as far as my second question goes. I find the whole concept odd, so I am looking to see it expanded on as an idea.

In post 1921, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1920, goodmorning wrote:Nobody else has made a point that someone hasn't asked them to clarify, besides which I hardly ever question people like that. I love when it happens though, it's great for reading people, getting down into their thought processes and watching them tick.

So you feel good about how everyone else has answered those questions?

In post 1920, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1918, Thor665 wrote:@Goodmorning - as long as we're discussing things, I would like to see you analyze the Thor wagon as it currently exists and express your thoughts on its current movement and what you think about it.

If you're asking me for any kind of VCA... I don't do that. If you're asking me to discuss the stated reasoning for each vote on your wagon and whether that looks kosher then I'll ask you to do the same for the Pere wagon.
Just let me know which it is.

I have already done that for the Pere wagon.
Yes, I'd love to see you do it for mine.

In post 2002, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1997, goodmorning wrote:Can we notice what Slandaar's done so far? He's tunneled me with theory questions and got into the multiball discussion, neither of which is particularly productive. Someone who thinks he's Town: why?

I am not particularly town reading him.
That said, you should be careful with all those rocks in that glass house - you are pretty much on open record for being next to useless today, so...where are you getting off complaining that the (now the second) new guy "isn't doing enough"?
It is really weird and hypocritical and not even that logical.

In post 2039, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2003, Garmr wrote:I will trust you with the dave reasoning but I showed that muffins so called attack was Smurf and went no where. Those lines I said were from his post and pretty much the only thing he said on the so called attack. So no that make thing you called attacking :roll: isn't going to win points when it has little point and leads no where.

If that was all you found than you missed/overlooked some of it - there was a point I accused him of buddying for how focused his attack on GM was. If you think there was never an attack from him then you should have issue with me making that sort of extreme statement.

In post 2008, goodmorning wrote:Thor: Am I just imagining that half the playerlist is more useless than I am?

I think so, I put you as more useless than quite a few you have marked differently.

In post 2048, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2047, goodmorning wrote:I have the strangest feeling this has to do with my weak case on you. I've done some Smurf since that, haven't you been paying attention?

I have paid attention to everything you have done this game - it wasn't hard to keep track of.
Oh, burn!

In post 2101, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2099, goodmorning wrote:Who was it that was calling this post contentful?

I did.

In post 2104, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2103, goodmorning wrote:It's not. It's a tunnel with window dressing on it.

If that is true than your reads are a toy tunnel with a chalk drawing of a window on the side.

In post 2274, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2254, goodmorning wrote:Why is Pere the leading wagon again?

Oh, I remember. It's because Thor said so.

In other news; Thor is complaining that other people aren't pushing wagons - almost as though he has a point.

(@gm)
In post 2292, Thor665 wrote:I only accuse you on not doing Smurf.

In post 2347, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2343, goodmorning wrote:[obligatory prodding at Thor post]
Maybe the Anen wagon should move to Axle?

Better yet, let's lynch Thor.[/obligatory prodding at Thor post]

Shhhh, I'm scumhunting you by not interacting with you.

In post 2392, Thor665 wrote:Were you planning to ever get around to that analysis of the wagon on me and how you feel about your co-voters and their reasons I asked for you to do?

In post 2393, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1997, goodmorning wrote:Alright, it's on the list. I'm at home all day tomorrow so...

You promised to do it Tuesday, functionally.

In post 2409, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2408, goodmorning wrote:
In post 2393, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1997, goodmorning wrote:Alright, it's on the list. I'm at home all day tomorrow so...

You promised to do it Tuesday, functionally.

That is true, sort of. Anyway, when I hit thing 2 in the list I didn't really want to do it, so I just didn't. I'll bump yours up and do it tomorrow.

I think that is true specifically - our individual date/times may be off, but a 24 hour period is still a 24 hour period.
If you are town in this game I am very sad.

In post 2413, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2410, goodmorning wrote:Saying I'm home on a day doesn't preclude the possibility that I won't be in the mood for Mafia.

Oh come on - how long exactly should it take you to (even off the top of your head) offer thoughts and opinions on a wagon on your top scumspect.
Even if you want to scroll back and look at their stated reasons (:lol:) it shouldn't take much more than...what, call it twenty minutes of research?

I'm not asking for an essay, I'm asking how you feel about the wagon you are currently on considering the votes that have supported it.
It shouldn't require a day, and even if you lazed off that day you should have been able to swing it sometime within the following 72 hours.

In post 2445, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2432, goodmorning wrote:I definitely just said I'd do it tomorrow, so why not stop being a Smurf about it?

Because this is the second time. I was a total believer of you the first time. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

In post 2450, Thor665 wrote:I don't think I've even seen any of the people voting me except for GM in days (though Nero had a hyper fail prod dodge in there I recall)
That is our 3rd biggest wagon - the wagon led by the 'tone' case and three lurksacks.
THIRD BIGGEST!

Axle *just voted* GM.
What an amazing wagon of 2!
That is going to ADD PRESSURE TO HER! :D

In post 2464, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2457, AxleGreaser wrote:Do you actually town read GoodMorning's vanity push on you?

No.
I have repeatedly described her push as terrible and her play lacking and also indicated support of the idea of lynching her.
That said - her wagon is L-10 and the Pere wagon is L-6...or something.

In post 2508, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2505, goodmorning wrote:
In post 2447, Thor665 wrote:Also I don't care, really - since I'm about the only player who tried during Day 1...shock of shocks, my wagon is the only one with weight

effort isn't indicative of alignment

I put back in the entirety of my comment - to show just how meaningless and kinda derp yours is.
I wasn't saying effort was indicative of alignment.
I was saying effort was indicative of ability to PUSH A WAGON
Dear gawd, are you scum or do you have inability to read English?

In post 2503, goodmorning wrote:
In post 2445, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2432, goodmorning wrote:I definitely just said I'd do it tomorrow, so why not stop being a Smurf about it?

Because this is the second time. I was a total believer of you the first time. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Repeat: I never said outright that I would do it tuesday. I did say outright that I would do it today.

You did say outright you would do it "tomorrow" on Monday.
In my universe that counts as saying, outright, that I should have been able to expect it within 72 hours and you failed to produce.
I will agree you said you would do it today also - pardon me for feeling a little gunshy in trusting you without constant reminders.

In post 2532, Thor665 wrote:Hey, GM, I'm keeping you in mind.

In post 2544, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2542, goodmorning wrote:
In post 2532, Thor665 wrote:Hey, GM, I'm keeping you in mind.

lolk

Well, it's not happening now. If we're all alive Tomorrow it'll happen then.

:neutral:

I'm keeping you in mind anyway.

But mostly for utter uselessness and promise breaking.

Is any of that even remotely how one speaks to their second-highest scumread?

Besides calling me useless, which he made pretty clear wasn't indicative, he used alignment-descriptive phrases only three times:
:
Good job being bad town or meh scum, I suppose.

:
You're thumping on her really aggressively for what is play that is easily either suck town or kinda weak scum, and it's your big push.

:
If you are town in this game I am very sad.


Wow.
EFFORT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT
Calling On Dragons coming eventually!

Get to know a very pleasant AM.

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Post Post #4517  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:14 pm

Actually seems to back my statement pretty strongly, really.

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Post Post #4518  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:17 pm

@Josh B
Spoiler: further clarification
In post 4505, Josh_B wrote:I can't vote everyone calling for a GM wagon at once, but dave, slandaar, scripten, and Axel are more interesting to me in that situation than Thor is right now.


If I read that correctly,
Ok this sounds like, you are saying you are suspicious of people who have indicated a scum read on GM but are not voting it... and that includes me...

I find that interesting in my case due to the large obvious facts.
So I pushed TSO D1
On D2 I have been interested in Garmr/Josh Good Morning Dave and more recently Nero (maybe in that time order IIRC)
and you have a problem with me (and my alignment)(more interesting) because I am not voting one of them? (I am not a quadruple voter)

Is that what you are saying?

goodmorning
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Post Post #4519  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:27 pm

In post 4517, Thor665 wrote:Actually seems to back my statement pretty strongly, really.

"Could be town or scum" is what you say about your second-strongest scumread?

hahahahahahahahahahahaha
EFFORT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT
Calling On Dragons coming eventually!

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Post Post #4520  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:33 pm

is anyone actually townreading nero after that jump on axle

like fucking really
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #4521  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:35 pm

In post 4506, goodmorning wrote:@Josh: There were 2 kills last Night. This doesn't tell us whether multiball, SK, or Vig, nor does it tell us whether there could be a third killing role which we have not yet seen.


I guess I'm not as far behind on this subject as I thought. I'll look into early D2 to see if there's some indication. This..
In post 2, Aegor wrote:This game is Normal, which means that the following hold:
All players have one of the following alignments: Town, Mafia, Werewolf, Serial Killer.
There is at least one Mafia or Werewolf faction; either or both of these could be in the game.

although generic, has it's own implications by the fact that it's included in the OP.
About WIFOM: Sometimes I just get thirsty and drink both glasses.

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Post Post #4522  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:40 pm

In post 4519, goodmorning wrote:
In post 4517, Thor665 wrote:Actually seems to back my statement pretty strongly, really.

"Could be town or scum" is what you say about your second-strongest scumread?

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

You make a lot of mocking noises without actually showcasing that I suggested I had a strong secondary read other than you.
Yeah, sure, I didn't use fire and brimestone to suggest how strong of a read I had on you...I will accept that makes it a weak read.
But, what does that say? That I lacked a strong secondary scumread - no more, no less.

You can write down as much laughter as you want and it still fails to make it scummy.
Oh, and look, on Day 2 when I developed other reads and formed alternate scum cases I advanced them as more desirable than voting you - again, supporting my words with actions.

So, basically, you're whining that I didn't have a better read on your pathetic play.
Sorry, I didn't.

What else?

@TOWN

Tick-tock, tick-tock.

Seriously guys, where the hell do you think we're going right now?

goodmorning
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Post Post #4523  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:43 pm

In post 4521, Josh_B wrote:I guess I'm not as far behind on this subject as I thought. I'll look into early D2 to see if there's some indication. This..
In post 2, Aegor wrote:This game is Normal, which means that the following hold:
All players have one of the following alignments: Town, Mafia, Werewolf, Serial Killer.
There is at least one Mafia or Werewolf faction; either or both of these could be in the game.

although generic, has it's own implications by the fact that it's included in the OP.

Isn't that pretty much the wording off the Wiki page?

@Thor: In a 21 player game, you claim to have lacked a strong secondary scumread. 21 players. Only 1 scumread.

@Tier: How is it that you townread Thor again?
EFFORT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT
Calling On Dragons coming eventually!

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Post Post #4524  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:53 pm

In post 4514, AxleGreaser wrote:@Josh B
Please clarify what pointing fingers means, and whether or not it is under the assumption ... if GM flips town/scum (or is independent of that).


pointing fingers=FOS. I am scum hunting off the Invisible GM wagon. I just came out of a GM scum game, and even though I got hosed by town reading her in that game, I can already see huge differences in her playstyle from that one to this and I'm giving it a solid town read.
I'm including the fact that the wagon itself is made up largely of indirect claims and very little direct votes, which is also indicative of town slot.
About WIFOM: Sometimes I just get thirsty and drink both glasses.

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