Long term health of mafiascum

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Long term health of mafiascum

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:57 pm

Post by chamber »

I think both of these sets of data don't paint a pretty picture for the future of MS. We never truly recovered from the early 2012 crash according to this data, but we are also at an all time low.

I think we are at a point where it's not to late to change things, but identifying the problem is quite difficult. There are a number of possibilities that I see; It could be that forum's are a dying medium; it could be that mafia is a dying game; it could be that MS just no longer caters to the tastes of people that play mafia; perhaps MS isn't getting it's name out there like it once did.

If forum's are just dying, I'm not sure we can do anything. I mean short of creating a mafia community based around a facebook plugin or something.

I take issue with the idea that mafia is a dying game, board games are doing better than ever, and I feel like mafia should be caught in that upswing.

MS has always taken the meltingpot approach to multiculturalism if you will. We force everyone to play the same way. I think that way has become increasingly divergent from how mafia is played elsewhere. That we are a meltingpot is a natural byproduct of our queue structure. Everyone only has access to so many games at a given time so they all need to have a wide appeal. I think we need to seriously consider redesigning how games go through signups to allow for more niche subtypes. Continuing to just further divide the queue's isn't enough.

Is our wiki no longer sufficient for attracting new people? Has MBF's flash finally died out? Perhaps more people look to twitch these days for games. A lot of work has been getting done to the wiki recently, and I don't know how to make it more accessible, but I've talked about creating a new interactive game introduction tool as a form of advertising for MS for a long time. It's possible we need it now more than ever. Also I know some people stream mafia games on twitch, perhaps we could try to get a weekly group together to do the same.

I look forward to hearing what other people have to say about this, especially our newest users.

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+-----------+-------------------------------------+
| REG_MONTH | COUNT(DISTINCT phpbb_users.user_id) |
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| 2014-11   |                                  39 |
| 2014-10   |                                  37 |
| 2014-09   |                                  42 |
| 2014-08   |                                  51 |
| 2014-07   |                                  63 |
| 2014-06   |                                  52 |
| 2014-05   |                                  49 |
| 2014-04   |                                  66 |
| 2014-03   |                                  66 |
| 2014-02   |                                  54 |
| 2014-01   |                                  62 |
| 2013-12   |                                  45 |
| 2013-11   |                                  36 |
| 2013-10   |                                  73 |
| 2013-09   |                                  34 |
| 2013-08   |                                  73 |
| 2013-07   |                                  91 |
| 2013-06   |                                  73 |
| 2013-05   |                                  78 |
| 2013-04   |                                 101 |
| 2013-03   |                                  72 |
| 2013-02   |                                  60 |
| 2013-01   |                                  92 |
| 2012-12   |                                  77 |
| 2012-11   |                                  58 |
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| 2012-08   |                                  86 |
| 2012-07   |                                  82 |
| 2012-06   |                                  67 |
| 2012-05   |                                  57 |
| 2012-04   |                                  70 |
| 2012-03   |                                  63 |
| 2012-02   |                                  42 |
| 2012-01   |                                  82 |
| 2011-12   |                                  71 |
| 2011-11   |                                  61 |
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| 2011-09   |                                  98 |
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| 2011-07   |                                 131 |
| 2011-06   |                                 108 |
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| 2011-04   |                                  76 |
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Spoiler: Number of unique non alt posters

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+------------+-------------------+
| POST_MONTH | NUMBER_OF_POSTERS |
+------------+-------------------+
| 2014-11    |               506 |
| 2014-10    |               538 |
| 2014-09    |               564 |
| 2014-08    |               596 |
| 2014-07    |               581 |
| 2014-06    |               554 |
| 2014-05    |               557 |
| 2014-04    |               581 |
| 2014-03    |               593 |
| 2014-02    |               558 |
| 2014-01    |               602 |
| 2013-12    |               569 |
| 2013-11    |               564 |
| 2013-10    |               597 |
| 2013-09    |               593 |
| 2013-08    |               668 |
| 2013-07    |               689 |
| 2013-06    |               656 |
| 2013-05    |               663 |
| 2013-04    |               675 |
| 2013-03    |               647 |
| 2013-02    |               615 |
| 2013-01    |               647 |
| 2012-12    |               626 |
| 2012-11    |               598 |
| 2012-10    |               650 |
| 2012-09    |               657 |
| 2012-08    |               671 |
| 2012-07    |               659 |
| 2012-06    |               640 |
| 2012-05    |               626 |
| 2012-04    |               608 |
| 2012-03    |               539 |
| 2012-02    |                 1 |
| 2011-11    |               694 |
| 2011-10    |               716 |
| 2011-09    |               763 |
| 2011-08    |               783 |
| 2011-07    |               846 |
| 2011-06    |               757 |
| 2011-05    |               725 |
| 2011-04    |               704 |
| 2011-03    |               709 |
| 2011-02    |               648 |
| 2011-01    |               630 |
| 2010-12    |               610 |
| 2010-11    |               620 |
| 2010-10    |               630 |
| 2010-09    |               655 |
| 2010-08    |               680 |
| 2010-07    |               694 |
| 2010-06    |               684 |
| 2010-05    |               660 |
| 2010-04    |               649 |
| 2010-03    |               690 |
| 2010-02    |               711 |
| 2010-01    |               711 |
| 2009-12    |               680 |
| 2009-11    |               651 |
| 2009-10    |               639 |
| 2009-09    |               661 |
| 2009-08    |               713 |
| 2009-07    |               709 |
| 2009-06    |               719 |
| 2009-05    |               721 |
| 2009-04    |               746 |
| 2009-03    |               740 |
| 2009-02    |               688 |
| 2009-01    |               696 |
| 2008-12    |               755 |
| 2008-11    |               708 |
| 2008-10    |               677 |
| 2008-09    |               721 |
| 2008-08    |               751 |
| 2008-07    |               748 |
| 2008-06    |               707 |
| 2008-05    |               661 |
| 2008-04    |               639 |
| 2008-03    |               604 |
| 2008-02    |               593 |
| 2008-01    |               566 |
| 2007-12    |               531 |
| 2007-11    |               577 |
| 2007-10    |               645 |
| 2007-09    |               639 |
| 2007-08    |               616 |
| 2007-07    |               562 |
| 2007-06    |               542 |
| 2007-05    |               555 |
| 2007-04    |               490 |
| 2007-03    |               405 |
| 2007-02    |               343 |
| 2007-01    |               354 |
| 2006-12    |               268 |
| 2006-11    |               245 |
| 2006-10    |               296 |
| 2006-09    |               336 |
| 2006-08    |               350 |
| 2006-07    |               335 |
| 2006-06    |               358 |
| 2006-05    |               343 |
| 2006-04    |               356 |
| 2006-03    |               350 |
| 2006-02    |               324 |
| 2006-01    |               325 |
| 2005-12    |               324 |
| 2005-11    |               317 |
| 2005-10    |               280 |
| 2005-09    |               235 |
| 2005-08    |               246 |
| 2005-07    |               238 |
| 2005-06    |               224 |
| 2005-05    |               222 |
| 2005-04    |               223 |
| 2005-03    |               235 |
| 2005-02    |               220 |
| 2005-01    |               203 |
| 2004-12    |               202 |
| 2004-11    |               195 |
| 2004-10    |               180 |
| 2004-09    |               166 |
| 2004-08    |               187 |
| 2004-07    |               185 |
| 2004-06    |               175 |
| 2004-05    |               177 |
| 2004-04    |               163 |
| 2004-03    |               160 |
| 2004-02    |               147 |
| 2004-01    |               145 |
| 2003-12    |               144 |
| 2003-11    |               129 |
| 2003-10    |               125 |
| 2003-09    |               106 |
| 2003-08    |               100 |
| 2003-07    |                66 |
| 2003-03    |                74 |
| 2003-02    |                82 |
| 2003-01    |                75 |
| 2002-12    |                79 |
| 2002-11    |                69 |
| 2002-10    |               102 |
| 2002-09    |                66 |
| 2002-08    |                52 |
| 2002-07    |                60 |
| 2002-06    |                76 |
| 2002-05    |                73 |
| 2002-04    |                58 |
| 2002-03    |                 3 |
| 1970-02    |                 1 |
| 1969-12    |                12 |
+------------+-------------------+

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Post Post #3 (isolation #1) » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:30 pm

Post by chamber »

I have no idea how epicmafia is doing.
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Post Post #7 (isolation #2) » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:42 am

Post by chamber »

In post 4, Quilford wrote:It could also be that mafiascum screams Web 1.0 in a way which communicates neither trustworthiness nor intimacy.


Propose a redesign.
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Post Post #11 (isolation #3) » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:30 am

Post by chamber »

Thoughts on just making mafblack default?
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Post Post #16 (isolation #4) » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:15 am

Post by chamber »

I don't really know why it wasn't done initially. I assume there was some sort of hold up by flay or mith?
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Post Post #18 (isolation #5) » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:17 am

Post by chamber »

I don't think things are PANIC! bad. I do think they are at 'we clearly need to change course' bad though. Let's not let ourselves run into the iceburg.
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Post Post #54 (isolation #6) » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:13 pm

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I don't think dismissing any idea's yet is a good idea. I do think we may want to sub-segment discussion though. Let wiki people talk about wiki priorities and design people talk about site design.
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Post Post #65 (isolation #7) » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:50 pm

Post by chamber »

What do you guys think about having the chat defaulting to on instead of off (in terms of hoping to increase user retention)? I think my graph clearly shows the bigger issue is just new players not showing up though. User retention seems decent.
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Post Post #71 (isolation #8) » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:55 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 66, BBmolla wrote:Rising from the dead.

Is there any way to code chat mafia games in the chat? Like make a simple chat bot?

Do we want mafiascum to be the go to for all mafia games? Chat, webcam, etc?

Epicmafia is trash, there is currently no where to play chat mafia games with any reasonable balance. I think MS filling that void could bring in a lot of users.

In it's current form, the chat isn't really a good way for mafia games imo.

I agree with Reck about tracking stats, if there was any possible way we could get that going, I know that'd attract a lot of attention.

Automated modding may also want to be a way we start heading towards. Insert the roles in the game, insert the player names, role pms automatically go out, and stats start to be tracked.

I have no idea what I'm talking about with that though.


Other than automation of modding what do you see as the sitechat needing?
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Post Post #72 (isolation #9) » Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:03 am

Post by chamber »

In post 70, Shadoweh wrote:I personally find the modding requirements here insulting. I've been playing for years and run multiple successful games offsite. If I wanted to run a game here it would need to be either sanitized of all fun and run by a committee or
picked by Llamafluff
a small selection of Open setups. Also it would take.. how many months to actually be run, and be required to be how many months long? I'm not interested enough in earning my Mafia Mod (TM) stripes to do that.

It's funny that the Micro Queue is such an innovation here to be honest, because it plays out the way mafia is played everywhere else. Quick, small, not needing as much time investment. I look at joining a non-Micro game right now and wow, it would cut into my Christmas holiday. Who has time for that for a forum-game?

I don't think livestreaming would help, because it would be false advertising. Here's some face to face mafia! Wasn't that a great party game? Now go sign up and in a week you can post once a day for three months! Mafiascum the forum is never going to be a F2F mafia site.

In post 57, Vi wrote:
In post 55, xRECKONERx wrote:EpicMafia is automated to run quick chat based games. I'm talking automation that tracks games you're in, let's the mod designate what factions won, tracks statistics, provides a summary of what alignments or roles you draw most often, success rates as various alignments or roles, etc
I agree that would be interesting, but unless it looks exceptionally shiny I don't think that's going to get new people in the door. The people who care about that sort of thing are generally well-established (and create vanity pages on the wiki) and aren't likely to quit because it's
not
there. Like, if you had a 100% win rate or only ever drew Town once that would be something really cool that you could show your friends, but statistically speaking most people aren't going to get that.
I think you are super wrong about who cares about their success rates. If you've played less games, doesn't it make sense that you care more about those individual games? It's not a 100% win-rate that matters, it's linking and sharing experiences even if you lost. Creating a wiki-stat page and manually updating it after every game is too much effort for a scorecard, if they were made automatically more people would know about and use them. (I mean, we don't even have a 'these people are currently playing in a mafia game RIGHT NOW' board to show just how many people are playing at a given time.)


I do think queue overhaul is a serious option. I think getting rid of queues, making threads with tags like [mini],[large] or [micro], [theme], [heavy mechanics] w/e. And then listmods just need to approve the creation of a thread, let the free market decide who's games fill. Maybe limit certain tags to certain amounts of experience. Perhaps limit -too- many games of the same type from going into signups at once. Perhaps allow vetted off site experience. The list mods job could move to doing that from maintaining the queue.
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Post Post #79 (isolation #10) » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:37 am

Post by chamber »

In post 74, Bicephalous Bob wrote:If sitechat is really going to be used for mafia, it'd make sense to have a fixed-link fullscreen version of the chat so votecount lines don't break and it's easier to look back in history, for example. It should really look like a place to play mafia, having all information (rooms, players online, xylbot docs) in one place, not just like a superimposed add-on.


It might not be immediately obvious but the windows can be resized. There is also a list of whos online and the rooms already?
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Post Post #80 (isolation #11) » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:38 am

Post by chamber »

In post 75, wgeurts wrote:Yo chamber, I'm teaching myself web development and may soon be able to create a new skin for the wiki. It says in the to do list that this is wanted so I'm willing to do so and make a maf-black like wiki skin. Would you allow this?


I don't make these choices. I'm just trying to lead the spit balling of ideas. I'd certainly welcome it in theory (though good designs are hard). But I need to actually sell mith on any major changes we wish to make.
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Post Post #81 (isolation #12) » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:41 am

Post by chamber »

In post 78, Bicephalous Bob wrote:ines of body text should be 75 characters long at most, with 50-60 characters optimizing readability.


This is extremely narrow. I'm not saying you are wrong but we'd need more than white space on either side if you are right.
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Post Post #89 (isolation #13) » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:11 am

Post by chamber »

In post 87, Bicephalous Bob wrote:It'll also help get the site indexed as a chat mafia site on google and give people the option to directly link to it. Since chat mafia is currently found within the forum, people still come here for the forum mafia and perhaps stay for the chat mafia. If you want to attract people who want to play live mafia, you have to present it as a distinct feature.


Given infinite resources, sure. It's about prioritizing things given limited resources though. A lot of these things are already functionally accomplished, so I think they are likely to land a lower priority in my book.
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Post Post #90 (isolation #14) » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:12 am

Post by chamber »

In post 88, Bicephalous Bob wrote:
In post 79, chamber wrote:There is also a list of whos online and the rooms already?

Yeah, but who ever checks if there are multiple rooms without someone telling them to do it? What I mean with having everything in one place is a layout like the fullscreen Facebook chat, where all rooms are on the left and everyone online is on the right.


Chicken egg issue. People don't check because there are never any I think?
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Post Post #92 (isolation #15) » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:31 am

Post by chamber »

That... seems like it would scale really poorly. It's an idea though.
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Post Post #94 (isolation #16) » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:57 am

Post by chamber »

I have valued all of your input btw. I don't want to seem like I'm shutting anyone down. I'm just trying to work through what people are asking for and comparing it to what exists for myself.
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Post Post #105 (isolation #17) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:02 am

Post by chamber »

In post 96, Psyche wrote:i sort of agree that an irc thing would be better since it would enable direct use without requiring navigation to ms.net
but we'd need to integrate that into the site as well ofc


Forcing navigation to MS.net is the point.
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Post Post #115 (isolation #18) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:09 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 110, Muffin wrote:
In post 105, chamber wrote:
In post 96, Psyche wrote:i sort of agree that an irc thing would be better since it would enable direct use without requiring navigation to ms.net
but we'd need to integrate that into the site as well ofc


Forcing navigation to MS.net is the point.


Isn't building a healthy community the point? Pageviews themselves are not really an important metric, and quite frankly it's just a really poor user experience to have to keep a browser tab open if you want to stay on chat IMHO. IRC is similarly much more suited to chat-mafia than the current iteration of site chat. It has better and more finely-grained permissions when users make their own channels, and using eggdrops or services it can be easily extended by regular users on a per-channel basis without requiring MS.net developer time.

Seems like a no-brainer to me, actually.


It's not about page views. It's about those communities -not- being MS. Any sub community like that turns into its own thing given time.
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Post Post #116 (isolation #19) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:19 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 107, FakedBlogger wrote:If you want to attract more loyal users to play forum mafia here you need to find ways to make the players look good/cool/awesome. If I were you I'd start by implementing a 24/7 radio station that airs the audio posts of an ongoing audio mafia game live as they get uploaded (+background music of the player's choosing), and otherwise plays only songs that have something to do with mafia in some way or another. Ask someone with a golden voice like Yabbaguy to do a show from time to time; and a band tryout would be nice.

Next I'd announce an official mafiascum instasynch.com channel for people from the community to watch mafia-related movies together while attracting fans of the genre, leading them indirectly to the site.

Last but not least I'd ponder the mechanics of the game and what makes it fun and challenging to come up with a hybrid form between forum mafia and mmorpg that lasts something like 1 year/game. It would have to be dynamic in a way that favors the individual to choose strategically whether to be part of organized crime, law enforcement or be a neutral citizen to maximize one's success and gameplay in a way subjected to evolutionary laws to assure an axiomatic balance.


If you are going to troll at least do it on your main.
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Post Post #119 (isolation #20) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:42 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 118, Majiffy wrote:Many of these players prefer to play games that are done within the course of a week.


Games that fast can't be supported with the current queue system. We funnel players into a limited number of games so they need to offer a relatively homogenous experience for their queue. Sub-segmenting by another factor is just silly though. If we aim to be inclusive of games like that, I don't think the solution is a 'fast' queue, but reworking the whole system. (not that I think it will happen).
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Post Post #121 (isolation #21) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:55 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 120, Muffin wrote:
In post 115, chamber wrote:It's not about page views. It's about those communities -not- being MS. Any sub community like that turns into its own thing given time.

  1. Only because they do not come under the current definition of MS. If the definition of what constitutes MS changed to include chat mafia, then they would be part of it.
  2. It wouldn't necessarily be a sub community. It's easy to integrate IRC into a web page for those who like to do it from in-browser, and the web clients are reasonably full-featured.


Honestly this just sounds like "Not-Invented-Here" Syndrome.


When the current chat was made, it was a conscious decision to make our own protocol rather than adapt an existing one.

Things like scumchat or skypechat are facsimile's of the MS community. They started here but they aren't directly tied to MS. In the past I've gone extended periods away from MS but still kept in some touch with scumchat.
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Post Post #126 (isolation #22) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:21 pm

Post by chamber »

Me and kison put the chat together in like a week. I don't have a strong attachment to it if there is a better option. I disagree with your solution being a better option. I'm not being biased by my work investment in my code because we considered the option before the code was written.

The bulk of the work required would be in things like a mafia bot, which would be needed independent of the platform.
Cosmetic changes aren't going to take a serious amount of work if that's where issues primarily lay with the current chat.
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Post Post #127 (isolation #23) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:24 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 125, Phoenicks wrote:Do we enable a private message or whisper system? Do we ban private messages in play and trust users not to cheat? Do we change the chat so that users can't privately message each other? If someone threatens me via PM on site, I can report the PM; how do we enforce our site rules on chat?


There is no automated process for this atm. Adding one is a reasonable suggestion. With that said all messages are logged so if someone ever says anything inappropriate to you, report it manually via PM to a discussion mod or admin.
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Post Post #130 (isolation #24) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:31 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 128, Muffin wrote:The site chat needs more than cosmetic changes to be usable for mafia games IMHO.


Talk concretely about what it needs.
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Post Post #134 (isolation #25) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:02 pm

Post by chamber »

I don't. How do you envision it working with additional windows? (where the games would presumably be played)
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Post Post #142 (isolation #26) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:46 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 141, Muffin wrote:
In post 140, GuyInFreezer wrote:Also if we're getting an irc server make sure a post # restriction (Mafia Goon status will be enough) so the spambot doesn't spam up the irc chat.

Depending on which ircd is used you can require all registrations to be verified, restrict channels based on certain criteria, etc.


He's assuming IRC access would be via forum accounts, which is an accurate assumption. He just also understands that sometimes spam bots get past our forum registration.
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Post Post #143 (isolation #27) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:48 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 139, Shadoweh wrote:In my personal and doubtlessly unpopular opinion I don't think a game day should be longer then 1 week, maximum.


It's ok for you to hold that opinion. I was just in a game with 8 day Days, and I felt I couldn't do anything in so little time. Making the game signup and creation system more flexible so that it can handle a wider variety of games is key to solving your issue I think. I'm the only one that's actually proposed any sort of change though, do you have any ideas?
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Post Post #146 (isolation #28) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:09 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 144, Muffin wrote:
In post 142, chamber wrote:
In post 141, Muffin wrote:
In post 140, GuyInFreezer wrote:Also if we're getting an irc server make sure a post # restriction (Mafia Goon status will be enough) so the spambot doesn't spam up the irc chat.

Depending on which ircd is used you can require all registrations to be verified, restrict channels based on certain criteria, etc.


He's assuming IRC access would be via forum accounts, which is an accurate assumption. He just also understands that sometimes spam bots get past our forum registration.
Yes, I understood both his assumptions. Not sure what your point is.


Because manual approval is just a really bad system at that point? There is a reason the forum isn't set to manual approval, it removes the responsiveness of the system, the very thing you should be looking to create with a chat community.
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Post Post #151 (isolation #29) » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:45 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 149, Shadoweh wrote:
In post 143, chamber wrote:
In post 139, Shadoweh wrote:In my personal and doubtlessly unpopular opinion I don't think a game day should be longer then 1 week, maximum.

It's ok for you to hold that opinion. I was just in a game with 8 day Days, and I felt I couldn't do anything in so little time. Making the game signup and creation system more flexible so that it can handle a wider variety of games is key to solving your issue I think. I'm the only one that's actually proposed any sort of change though, do you have any ideas?

From what I understand, the reason moderators here run longer games is because games have always been long here. I'm not sure changing how the queue system works would change what people think the base length of a game should be, rather then Mafiascum Official (tm) guidelines changing. Right now Newbies have to be run with two week deadlines, so the first experience in theory people have with this site is a month to two month long game. (with exceptions obviously for more likely to quickhammer..)

I am simply suggesting mods run shorter deadline games more often as a community. The good side of this is it seems deadlines do keep getting shorter here over time?


It would be highly undesirable for mods to just start running 48h deadline games without making it VERY clear that it was a function of their game. As I said before, the queue structure forces an amount of homogeneity and deadline times fit into that.
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Post Post #170 (isolation #30) » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:12 am

Post by chamber »

Based on what I see in those numbers, our user retention rate looks like it's gone up not down. The primary problem in need of fixing is that new users has MASSIVELY dropped off.
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Post Post #171 (isolation #31) » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:23 am

Post by chamber »

A lot of the suggestions have been technical in nature. The problem there is the amount of man power we have. I can take 1 thing and run with it, I don't have the time or drive to do 10 things. This effort is going to take the whole community to be successful. If there is something you can think of that you can do, share it.
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Post Post #195 (isolation #32) » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:50 am

Post by chamber »

In post 190, Phoenicks wrote:Are private messages logged so admins can view them? (I don't think this has ever come up.) If not, I could report fakes manually.


Everything that goes through the chat is saved.
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Post Post #199 (isolation #33) » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:40 am

Post by chamber »

In post 179, Majiffy wrote:If you ever need sound design or anything else relating to audio, I'm your man.


Lots of things can use sound design. Of the many things actively being discussed, at the very least the new multimedia object/introduction tool would likely greatly benefit from good sound design.
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Post Post #205 (isolation #34) » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:41 am

Post by chamber »

In post 203, Bicephalous Bob wrote:What do you mean by "functionally accomplished"? Creating a fullscreen chat on a separate page doesn't seem that difficult considering you already have the backbone and the rewards are great.


I think it would be more work than you realize? The rewards aren't great, they are very marginal when you can already expand a chat window to be nearly full screen.
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Post Post #207 (isolation #35) » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:43 am

Post by chamber »

In post 203, Bicephalous Bob wrote:As for getting more newbies in, add a link to the sign-up thread in the description of the Newbie forum.


This is also a marginal suggestion given there is already a full guide to signing up for your first game from the homepage. But it's actually no work to accomplish so~.
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Post Post #209 (isolation #36) » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:45 am

Post by chamber »

What browser? It does scroll within the chat for me.
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Post Post #215 (isolation #37) » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:15 am

Post by chamber »

Let's get a graphics designer and list mod together with majiffy to get a multimedia introduction tool built.

I can do the implementation if I need to once it's on paper.
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Post Post #217 (isolation #38) » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:19 am

Post by chamber »

I'm assuming it will be html5 not a video. But if they decide a video is better less work for me.
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Post Post #236 (isolation #39) » Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:05 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 225, zoraster wrote:is that really that big a gain? I'd say the bigger thing that EM has is automatic vote counting and resolution. For MS you'd want it to only pull some unique code (e.g. the [.vote] tag) for voting from each post that comes in a drop down box with current players, and maybe lock the thread when majority is reached.


I was working on an automated vote processing tool when thesp released his, at which point it felt like it would be kind of douchy to finish it >_>.
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Post Post #237 (isolation #40) » Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:12 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 219, BBmolla wrote:I can do badly animated flash videos to help with the "multimedia introduction tool", but if the goal is to not look tacky I don't know how much that'd help us.

Examples:
Meet the Villager
Meet the Mafia
Meet the Doctor
Meet the Cop

(I also fixed the exporting issue that plagued a lot of these)


I think it would be great to carry your comedic style into it. The graphical work likely needs to up it's game though.
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Post Post #239 (isolation #41) » Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:27 pm

Post by chamber »

Good Animation is very time consuming. I think we can set the bar at stills initially.
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Post Post #251 (isolation #42) » Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:23 am

Post by chamber »

If all you are going to do is remove features, why do it at all?

Presumably to make a full screen client one should be reworking the way the tabing works for instance.
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Post Post #259 (isolation #43) » Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:33 am

Post by chamber »

If he's doing all the work I don't mind putting up a link for it.

This may not have been sufficiently clear; I mean hosting it here and etc too obviously.
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Post Post #278 (isolation #44) » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:37 pm

Post by chamber »

They can be annoying but I don't know how else to get some of that data.
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Post Post #304 (isolation #45) » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:55 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 302, zoraster wrote:it might be best practice, but it'd be a pain in the neck for the listmod to do. Though theoretically you could have each game mod send a link to the survey each time someone dies.


I was just going to voice this as an idea, glad to see someone beat me to it.
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Post Post #306 (isolation #46) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:36 am

Post by chamber »

What do we think of giving all games their own signup threads and increasing their visibility in some way?
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Post Post #309 (isolation #47) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:30 am

Post by chamber »

In post 308, Shadowmod wrote:I think some design changes would go a long way. There are many good options that distinguish this forum as one catering to playing games of mafia in it, like the iso function, private topics etc., but most of them are either (relatively) hard to find or badly placed. Why do I have to scroll to the top or bottom of a page to make an iso, check PMs or use most of the other interactive elements? Why do I need to check the OP or iso the mod if I want to view a complete player list or the newest vote count? Why can't I link private topics directly to a game they belong to, so, for example, players who have access to a private topic belonging to a game automatically get a list of links to those private topics if they enter the game thread? Sure, using multiple browser tabs can work a round some of these, but it is still not intuitive.

Seriously, GUIs of all kinds have been using stuff like static menu elements (like task, menu, quicklaunch, side bars etc.) for ever now. Why can't a forum adapt the basic principles to make navigation more convenient and purposeful?

I have no idea, how much coding work a forum redesign would actually be, but it is the one thing that would have a great impact on attractivity without the need to change any of the underlying strucutres, which is probably harder to do because the community would not support those changes.

And I agree that the standard blue theme looks kind of bland, old and unispired. Something more sleek and ellegant would be nice. But not the current black theme, please. It's really not that great in practice, I think, and I hate how it doesn't properly display half of the text colours.



You don't have to scroll to iso. There is literally an iso button on every post a player makes.
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Post Post #310 (isolation #48) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:35 am

Post by chamber »

In post 308, Shadowmod wrote:and I hate how it doesn't properly display half of the text colours.


A bunch of colours are otherwise illegible. If you think there is a better solution I'm open to hearing it?
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Post Post #311 (isolation #49) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:39 am

Post by chamber »

And just so it doesn't seem like I'm dismissing everything you said, I'm just still processing the implementation and how much work it would be for several of them.
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Post Post #314 (isolation #50) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:56 am

Post by chamber »

Let me nuke it and I will :).
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Post Post #316 (isolation #51) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:59 am

Post by chamber »

I don't need your permission I need mith/flays.
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Post Post #318 (isolation #52) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:12 am

Post by chamber »

I think threads not in sign up would need to be strictly moved to a different forum. And games seeking replacement could also probably get their own forum?
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Post Post #321 (isolation #53) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:45 am

Post by chamber »

I don't know who you are talking to.
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Post Post #323 (isolation #54) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:52 am

Post by chamber »

I think for new players our queue system can be quite confusing and misleading as to how active we are. You can see very old signup threads on the first page, and often there wont be any because no large themes are in signups. It makes the signup process and activity level more visible if we give each game its own signup thread.
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Post Post #325 (isolation #55) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:41 am

Post by chamber »

In post 324, zoraster wrote:i mean it may be, but I don't think having tons of sign up threads is any less confusing, and it substantially reduces the chance of a newbie finding his or her way into the newbie queue. Something like this might work:

Image

At first it could simply be that those threads act exactly the same (except there would be an area for mods to enter in players signed up that would update the OP and the sign up number and a toggle for the game status) and the join this game button would automatically make a /in post and take you to the end of the thread, the replace into the game would either take you to a PM to the mod or type /replace. The thread could function exactly as before (in that if you click on the thread it takes you to the OP with info etc). It could also serve as the first step toward automatic sign ups. It'd still be curated by the moderator, but it would start the process of moderators entering into the system who is playing in what games.


Speaking honestly, automated signups are probably like 3-5h of work from having a functional beta. I powered through working on them quite a bit before I got fed up with working with you guys. The problem is once the functional beta is up, it would take a lot of feedback from the list mods and I just don't feel like dealing with it. They also work completely differently from how you are proposing this would work.

You want me to add a couple optional fields like game type and number of players? Sure. I'm not adding any sort of processing though (such as a sign-up button).
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Post Post #327 (isolation #56) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:03 am

Post by chamber »

Convince me refining them with you guys isn't going to be a massive pain in my ass and I could probably have a beta up by saturday. But I would need to actually be convinced.
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Post Post #329 (isolation #57) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:05 am

Post by chamber »

For what sort of thing?
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Post Post #332 (isolation #58) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:44 am

Post by chamber »

But that's not a function of me. He's in the coding forum so he knows that it exists. People are free to help. :) (and three of us worked on automated signups?)
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Post Post #335 (isolation #59) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:00 am

Post by chamber »

In post 334, Porochaz wrote:
In post 323, chamber wrote:I think for new players our queue system can be quite confusing and misleading as to how active we are. You can see very old signup threads on the first page, and often there wont be any because no large themes are in signups. It makes the signup process and activity level more visible if we give each game its own signup thread.


Wouldn't having a queue archive solve this?


That just means there are sometimes no visible games at all instead of dated ones.
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Post Post #339 (isolation #60) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:22 am

Post by chamber »

In post 338, Porochaz wrote:
In post 335, chamber wrote:
In post 334, Porochaz wrote:
In post 323, chamber wrote:I think for new players our queue system can be quite confusing and misleading as to how active we are. You can see very old signup threads on the first page, and often there wont be any because no large themes are in signups. It makes the signup process and activity level more visible if we give each game its own signup thread.


Wouldn't having a queue archive solve this?


That just means there are sometimes no visible games at all instead of dated ones.


Im confused. I mean just remove the completed ones, rather than the ongoing ones. The problem of having no visible games if there are none running doesn't seem to be an issue to me? Especially since I would assume more people would be inclined to run a Large Theme lets say if there is no wait to do so...


Its unintuitive for game signups to be in both queue threads and outside of them. Frankly its unintuitive to have them in queue threads at all imo and is just a product of how old they are and how they were originally done.
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Post Post #341 (isolation #61) » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:04 am

Post by chamber »

In post 340, quadz08 wrote:Are you referring to the fact that the large theme does signups via individual threads, but everyone else does it in one mass thread?


I am. But not just that. I think signups being in a mass thread at all is confusing on it's own. But that there are 2 types absolutely has to add to peoples confusion.
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Post Post #353 (isolation #62) » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:04 am

Post by chamber »

In post 352, Mr. Flay wrote:
In post 172, saulres wrote:
In post 170, chamber wrote:Based on what I see in those numbers, our user retention rate looks like it's gone up not down. The primary problem in need of fixing is that new users has MASSIVELY dropped off.


That's different then. That's not us doing anything wrong, that's people not finding us.

I just opened a private browser and Googled "Mafia Game". We don't show up on the first three pages at all. "Mafia Roles" we're the first listing. "Mafia Online" we're number seven, with epicmafia as number one.

Bing: "Mafia Game", not in the first three pages. "Mafia Roles", third on the list. "Mafia Online", towards the bottom of page 3.

Google again: "Werewolf Game", not in first three pages. "Werewolf Roles", not until page 3.

Search engines aren't finding us well enough I think.
I feel like this got lost in the discussion. Stickiness is hard if new users aren't even HITTING the site. So who does SEO??

FWIW, I am fine with my old logos being archived immediately if the new one is ready to go (there was always some technical reason we didn't have the final graphic, IIRC).


I think the one we are using on mafblack is the wrong size and didn't resize perfectly, with that said I think it looks a lot better that what we currently use.
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Post Post #359 (isolation #63) » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:45 am

Post by chamber »

In post 357, Quilford wrote:I think we could do a lot worse than using one of these really nice looking, responsive and mobile-ready phpBB templates, just make a few tiny aesthetic changes like colouring etc to suit ms.net, and you have something that looks super super professional and will stop hundreds of people who visit the site each year and then click off, terrified that they've somehow warped back ten years or something.

Also, they appear to cost $16, because we can get a regular license because the users of this site aren't charged anything, which seems like a massive goddamn bargain.


You don't think literally all of those look ugly? I agree that the forum should probably be more responsive, but I suspect it would be less work to just update the current theme to be.
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Post Post #363 (isolation #64) » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:59 am

Post by chamber »

In post 360, quadz08 wrote:That's actually quite nice, conceptually.

Edit: Chamber, literally everyone one of those is several dozen times better than what we have now.


It's not as easy as 'ok we are using this now', it would be actual work to implement many of these (and anytime a style mentions not needing coding to make changes I want to run).

If I have to do actual work I'd rather end up with something I like rather than something that's better than what we have.
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Post Post #364 (isolation #65) » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:00 am

Post by chamber »

In post 362, HorseDetective wrote:I'm also not convinced that forum design is 100% the main problem; the others I mentioned would be bigger issues for me even if forum design is one.


People see problems in their area of expertise. Quilford does graphic design so it's the error that looks the worst to him.
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Post Post #367 (isolation #66) » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:10 am

Post by chamber »

Wide is by far the worst offender imo. Flato looked the most potentially workable.
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Post Post #391 (isolation #67) » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:31 am

Post by chamber »

I definitely remember some multi-month days back when. I don't know how people get anything done in less than 2 weeks.
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Post Post #393 (isolation #68) » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:37 am

Post by chamber »

I think they were worse in mini normals if you look at statistics, but it's been a while since I have. I also don' think the stats have ever been compiled for larges.
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Post Post #395 (isolation #69) » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:41 am

Post by chamber »

I think we've run stats on that too and the actual answer was somewhere in the middle.
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Post Post #396 (isolation #70) » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:45 am

Post by chamber »

I mean I wouldn't be surprised if towns have an advantage at extremely fast games where mafia are forced to think on their feet and everyone is active, but once you get past that point, game days being too short to the detriment of the town is a real thing.
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Post Post #399 (isolation #71) » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:51 am

Post by chamber »

In post 397, HorseDetective wrote:I guess this is just strong divergence in meta, then. As I said, most other communities consider a week quite a long time and certainly not anywhere near preventing town discussion at all at all. Having said that, maybe smaller communities are capable of sustaining greater activity? When it's a group of 15ish people or whatever who all know each other very well and are a community for reasons other than just the game, the amount of time they dedicate towards that community (including the game) might be higher, so you might get more posts-per-hour? I'm not sure.


It's a function of the age of the community as well(as in age of individual members). Most of us can't devote a full week to playing a game of mafia. You may look at our 2 month commitments as too long, but I look at a week commitment of having to be super active as more insane.
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Post Post #404 (isolation #72) » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:49 am

Post by chamber »

In post 401, Anatole Kuragin wrote:How many active players does MS have?


The active unique posters number is in the first post (~500 [500 might not be super charitable it's mostly fluctuated between 530 and 600]). I have no idea how many you are left with if you exclude non-mafia forums, but I'd put my 90% confidence interval at like 350-425.
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Post Post #407 (isolation #73) » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:46 am

Post by chamber »

There was a growth period in late 2012-mid 2013 as well. What we are experiencing now seems to mostly be its own thing.
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Post Post #409 (isolation #74) » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:59 am

Post by chamber »

In post 408, Phoenicks wrote:Why isn't there interest in offering a separate queue for shorter games? Until you offer something like that, marketing, design, and SEO will only make a marginal difference.


It's quite hard to tell how it would actually fair. How would you propose it be set up though?
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Post Post #411 (isolation #75) » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:12 am

Post by chamber »

In post 410, saulres wrote:
In post 409, chamber wrote:It's quite hard to tell how it would actually fair.


Wasn't that the thought behind the Micro Queue before it was launched? And look how that's taken off.

Maybe it's worth setting up such a queue and seeing what happens.


I mean, micro sized games already existed on MS, they just didn't have their own queue, there was also out spoken demand from existing members. This is mostly a means to attract new members, we don't really have an established base to kick it off.

I suggest people talk about specifics of implementation though.
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Post Post #414 (isolation #76) » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:33 am

Post by chamber »

In post 413, fferyllt wrote:like this if
you
determine there is enough interest for a trial.


I don't know if this is just awkward phrasing or not but I have no authority to create an extra queue. (or do much of anything). That would fall on the collective will of mith and the current List Mods. That's why I suggest we talk about possible specific implementations that could be brought up to them. How do we introduce this game type without diluting the other queues too much?
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Post Post #420 (isolation #77) » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:30 am

Post by chamber »

In post 418, HorseDetective wrote:
In post 408, Phoenicks wrote:
In post 385, zoraster wrote:mods, particularly in theme games, have lots of lattitude for deadlines. People are definitely allowed to run 1 day deadline games as a theme game if they want


This would be a niche game on site. It would be marketed "one day phases!" This would not attract new players in the least.

Obviously the players coming in will change if the players we have change. We can't change our players by talking about it. Hosts will not, individually, decide to dramatically change tastes by hosting shorter deadlines in a big enough shift to affect the kinds of games we offer. We can only change the site top-down here.

Almost every newbie or discontented player surveyed here has complained about our phase length. Why isn't there interest in offering a separate queue for shorter games? Until you offer something like that, marketing, design, and SEO will only make a marginal difference.


I like this post and am not surprised by the commonalities in complaints mentioned. The thing I want to stress is that this can't be marketed as "hey look, we're doing some strange 1-day thing, isn't this unusual?". If you wanted to seriously trial it, it couldn't be marketed as "one day phases". It needs to be marketed as a purely ordinary game, which just happens to have (for example) 7:1 days and 2:1 nights. That's not "really short"; that's going to be long for most people transitioned from other communities. I don't think you'd need a separate queue, either. I don't immediately see what would be wrong with just running a few Newbie Games straight away with this format; the best way might to be to offer sign-ups for two Newbie Games at the same time, one with 7:1 and one with the traditional 14:1, and let newbies choose which one they preferred - I don't think this is significantly more work but from what I remember and I quick observation shows me, this site often has multiple newbie games starting almost concurrently anyway. Also, which one new players would prefer to participate in itself might be a useful test.


We aren't looking to replace the normal speed that we play at, if anything we are looking to supplement it. The normal speed of play on MS is the newbie game speed, so the newbie games should stay that speed, offering a space for faster paced games (as in 3:1 and 1:1) is something to consider, but it would be marketed as such. Perhaps over time if that section of things grew sufficiently, newbie games could follow suit.
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Post Post #429 (isolation #78) » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:58 am

Post by chamber »

In post 428, quadz08 wrote:Zor isn't looking for newbies to venture into other games, I don't believe. (In fact, players in their first newbie game are not allowed to play in other games.) He wants them to venture into the discussion forums.


I think newbies are allowed to play in other games, just not multiple newbies.
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Post Post #449 (isolation #79) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:57 am

Post by chamber »

In post 447, zoraster wrote:"Do you wish you could yell at your friends on a more frequent basis on all matter of trivial things? Join Mafiascum today!"

Also, maybe I shouldn't say this but... I kind of think the name Mafiascum does us no favors.


It's why the white red division is so important.
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Post Post #451 (isolation #80) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:53 am

Post by chamber »

I do agree that werewolf seeming to have taken off as the common vernacular has hurt us.
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Post Post #453 (isolation #81) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:31 pm

Post by chamber »

I returned the index page to what it was prior to the march notice. The content could likely use further updating of some sort though.
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Post Post #471 (isolation #82) » Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:05 am

Post by chamber »

In post 470, BROseidon wrote:
In post 469, Cabd wrote:Something mafiascum could do that would be pretty sweet is to make little "mafia theory flashcards" of sorts with basic tips and tricks for play as each role, as well as a card explaining NAR and stuff, then have them printable for free on our website. Have the ms logo and URL on them, take them to board game clubs etc, as well as anywhere that plays offline mafia.


I would be willing to write those.

I also don't trust anyone else not to fuck it up.


Try making some example ones.
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Post Post #483 (isolation #83) » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:48 am

Post by chamber »

I think we'll be enforcing the use of vote tags over bolding soon anyway. Don't fret too much.
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Post Post #490 (isolation #84) » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:22 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 489, Zachrulez wrote:I don't think I've ever actually used the vote tag. I know it's better than bolding, but I didn't learn how to vote that way so I'm just old and stuck I guess...

I also wouldn't qualify enforcing vote tags over bold voting as large scale improvement. I would hate to be forced to enforce that as a mod because I think I would be stepping into the game way too often to correct votes. I prefer to qualify votes my own way.


It will be part of other changes. (and if you look through my past games you'll see I exclusively bold too).
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Post Post #493 (isolation #85) » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:33 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 491, Zachrulez wrote:I guess my point is why should that be dictated by administration rather than by game mods?

I get that it offers advantages, but I don't find them to be significant enough to want to bother to step in for the many times that people will vote some other way that is otherwise perfectly acceptable.


Automated vote processing and vote counts would require it (or at least make my life way easier) and standardizing across the whole site has more benefits than allowing some mods to not use the feature.

I don't actually have the authority to dictate site policy, but if I have my way, thats how things will be in for all future games in a few weeks.
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Post Post #550 (isolation #86) » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:23 pm

Post by chamber »

I mean, this is part of something else so I haven't done it yet but I'm envisioning a drop down box in the posting editor to make a vote that would auto insert the proper vote tag. Also The vote count would update in real time so everyone would know if someone properly made the vote or not, including the player that intended to make it. Also intended to auto insert static vote counts at the top of new pages.
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Post Post #553 (isolation #87) » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:28 pm

Post by chamber »

In the hypothetical world where everything is implemented exactly as I want it to be, double voters would be handled on launch, any other odd voting mechanics would require you to disable it. Baring other odd voting mechanics you'd be forced to use it.
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Post Post #555 (isolation #88) » Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:26 am

Post by chamber »

In post 554, saulres wrote:
In post 553, chamber wrote:any other odd voting mechanics would require you to disable it.


It's good that there'll be that option, because double-voting isn't the only voting mechanic I've seen. e.g. I've seen people lose their vote for an infraction more than I've seen double-voters.


I mean, the double voting system would likely be vote weight and number of vote fields, so that would still cover no vote. It wouldn't cover hurt/heal games. It wouldn't cover mechanics like votes being locked in once they are placed. It wouldn't cover anonymous votes. It wouldn't cover votes from the grave like in BBmollas one game.
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Post Post #560 (isolation #89) » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:27 am

Post by chamber »

In post 557, Majiffy wrote:The only thing I'm worried about with double voting / other shenaniganry regards compromising a game's integrity. It should be definitely made known to all mods that any "secret" votes are no longer secret at the point of implementation.


I think secret votes on scum are a reasonably bastard mechanic anyway, and secret votes on town aren't functionally secret for long.

edit: which isn't to say you can't use bastard mechanics, just, turn off the voting feature in bastard games.
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Post Post #567 (isolation #90) » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:40 am

Post by chamber »

HEAL: majiffy
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Post Post #573 (isolation #91) » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:27 am

Post by chamber »

They were for a mafia game run by flay. Instead of lynching, players could use the hurt/heal commands to deal damage to and heal each other, the 'lynch' being determined by someone reaching 0 hp.
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Post Post #803 (isolation #92) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:26 am

Post by chamber »

Code: Select all

[post=800][/post]
also works.
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Post Post #804 (isolation #93) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:29 am

Post by chamber »

Code: Select all

[post]800[/post]


also works. the # infront forces it to reference the global rather than relative id.
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Post Post #806 (isolation #94) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:19 pm

Post by chamber »

This is how it has always worked.
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Post Post #900 (isolation #95) » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:32 pm

Post by chamber »

I think a blitz queue probably resolves this issue, but I know it didn't go forward because there were issues. Perhaps enumerating those issues and looking for solutions should be on the table.
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Post Post #904 (isolation #96) » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:07 pm

Post by chamber »

Can you elaborate on why you think players being in fewer games is an issue? (or a big issue).

mod and queue burden do sound like real problems that would need to be addressed though.
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Post Post #909 (isolation #97) » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:32 pm

Post by chamber »

I also prefer slower games, but at some point we have to recognize that our main source of people used to be other sites, and if they are all playing in a faster format, we might get some of them who want things to goa bit slower, but most of those people would just stay away from mafia on the other sites in the first place.

I do think there is probably an issue of too many queues if we open the blitz queue (I'm wondering if it might already be the case that we offer too many different game signups at once, and adding more too that list likely doesn't help it) So perhaps one conversation needs to be around what queue(s) go if we overcome the technical issues the blitz queue has? Merge the normal queues and merge opens into micros (given that I believe the micro opens are the most popular anyway)?
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Post Post #911 (isolation #98) » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:08 pm

Post by chamber »

I'm not at all attached to even having queues, but getting rid of them has never had traction so one needs to work with the options they have.

I agree that we have too many queues for the current player base, they offer additional options but they also spread the player base out. It should be noted this is more about the number of games in signup than it is the number of queues, though.

We've tried opening the marathon forum permanently previously. You need a high concentration of players to be there for hour(s) during a given time window for them to fire. When we left it open forever, they just never got ran at all.

As for why a blitz queue, it encourages people to run that kind of game. I think there was some success with hydras, where previously every mod just seemed to allow them by default, but by having list mods ask explicitly during signups, it made more choose no hydras. Perhaps something similar can be done with deadlines? Not sure. Of course all of the problems that Zoraster mentioned would extend to any method of increasing the number of blitz games, not only to a queue.
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Post Post #913 (isolation #99) » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:45 pm

Post by chamber »

It's possible that the main issue with the marathon forum when it was open constantly is another technical hurdle; properly notifying people someway other than there just being a new topic. But at some point we need to limit the scope of which issue is being tackled. Can't do everything at once.
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Post Post #924 (isolation #100) » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:42 pm

Post by chamber »

The name of the theme queues doesn't help. I understand that what we mean by theme is actually non-normal. How many new people understand that?
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Post Post #930 (isolation #101) » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:55 am

Post by chamber »

In post 928, Katsuki wrote:From a players perspective, I've found the quality of games grow steadily unenjoyable over the past few years. Playing mafia here went from a fun experience to often times unpleasant, which is obviously not desired in a recreational activity. I'll join games with playerlists like Fate's upcoming game, or FG modded games, but that's about it.

Perhaps if we cloned FG or made him mod overtime, his games are always fun. Other than that, no idea what can be done about site culture of oversensitivity and spam.
I don't think that's the issue. As much as I agree about disliking the current meta, the trend of lost players existed in 2014 when me and kison made those first graphs. It's not a new issue at all.
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Post Post #932 (isolation #102) » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:06 am

Post by chamber »

I've seen some data, but it was much more comprehensive and not a graph in the same way those were. I think kison has posted some stats in here. I'm not sure what else he wants public specifically.
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Post Post #933 (isolation #103) » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:08 am

Post by chamber »

Looks like he only posted SEO stuff. Would need to ask him for specifics, intution without seeing it graphically is, not as bad as if you made a linear regression based on those 2 graphs in the op, but still trending down.
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Post Post #945 (isolation #104) » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:03 pm

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I was incredibly lazy with labeling and making it look pretty, but here is an updateo n the two graphs from the OP.

Unique Non-alt Non-spam Posters Per month:
Image

Registered Non-alt Non-spam with at least 1 post:
Image
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Post Post #950 (isolation #105) » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:23 pm

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I wonder what the unique posters would look like if we limited it to mafia forums as opposed to the forum as a whole. It could be that those ~100 lost over the last year were all from mafia. and that it went from something like 450 to 350 there instead of the 550-450 drop over all.
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Post Post #969 (isolation #106) » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:50 pm

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Is that a serious question? We lose like 100 users month to month because of turn over (some of whom come back later). How many banned users are there? Less than 10?
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Post Post #971 (isolation #107) » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:16 pm

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those graphs are from 2002 until the end of May, each point being a month. They show net loss and gain. When I say the 100 number, I'm talking about users that post in month x but don't post in month x+1.
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Post Post #973 (isolation #108) » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:59 pm

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I'm going off of more data than just those graphs when I say we lose about 100 users a month. We gain back a good part of that with new registers and returning users to see the net decline that graph shows. We both agree that the registration numbers being down, and to some degree the rate they stay for, are the key issues.
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Post Post #974 (isolation #109) » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:09 pm

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In post 972, davesaz wrote:and shows a long-term trend of -2 users per month (loss of roughly 150 active over 67 months)
I don't know why you chose that period, but its more like 250 lost during it, not 150.
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Post Post #992 (isolation #110) » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:04 am

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It's against the rules to explicitly advertise on MS. Other mafia sites exist. I'm not sure they are really poaching.
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Post Post #996 (isolation #111) » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:34 pm

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In post 995, Garmr wrote:. Also how it seems to occur more often on extreme left leaning sites.
And you claim we are biased.
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Post Post #998 (isolation #112) » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:27 am

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In post 997, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:I would suggest having 1 week days. Many people don’t have the motivation/attention span to want to play for 2 week days. On MU, people even bitch anout 72 hr days (my personal favourite).

I also would prefer 24 -36 hr nights to 48.

72 hr days/24 hr nights would be ideal IMO but at the very least no longer than 1 week.
Mods can put whatever deadline they want on a game. Just uniformly enforcing a 1 week Day would completely alienate a lot of our existing users and can't be the answer. There are logistical questions of how to inspire mods to run a higher variety of phase lengths, as well as how to manage users accessing that increase variety.
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Post Post #1000 (isolation #113) » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:51 am

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Someones first impression included scanning the banthread? ok.
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Post Post #1002 (isolation #114) » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:02 am

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If you are reading me as upset you are wrong. Challenging bullshit doesn't require emotion. The bullshit may very well be from the person who contacted you, but its still bullshit you repeated.
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Post Post #1010 (isolation #115) » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:25 am

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In post 1009, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 998, chamber wrote:
In post 997, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:I would suggest having 1 week days. Many people don’t have the motivation/attention span to want to play for 2 week days. On MU, people even bitch anout 72 hr days (my personal favourite).

I also would prefer 24 -36 hr nights to 48.

72 hr days/24 hr nights would be ideal IMO but at the very least no longer than 1 week.
Mods can put whatever deadline they want on a game. Just uniformly enforcing a 1 week Day would completely alienate a lot of our existing users and can't be the answer. There are logistical questions of how to inspire mods to run a higher variety of phase lengths, as well as how to manage users accessing that increase variety.
A lot of people are put off by 2 week days, why not have variety?
I was arguing in favor of variety there (as opposed to uniform 1 week or 72h days). Variety is already allowed by the rules, so the question is how to make mods actually run a variety, and how to best let players access the speed they want to play at.
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Post Post #1012 (isolation #116) » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:27 am

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As has been discussed previously and recently, the Blitz queue had some issues that need to be resolved. But also, you can't just infinitely divide the queues. At some point more queues can't be the answer. If anything I think MS already has too many games in sign up at once for its current player base.
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Post Post #1015 (isolation #117) » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:06 am

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Do you have specific proposals about what being more responsive would look like? How do you detect what the player base wants?
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Post Post #1017 (isolation #118) » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:12 am

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In post 1016, AnonymousGhost wrote:
In post 1015, chamber wrote:How do you detect what the player base wants?
Make a separate thread with a poll? /goes to do so/
How do you know what options to even put in the poll? How does that work as an ongoing means of measuring? How does it work on people that don't visit MD?
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Post Post #1019 (isolation #119) » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:17 am

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I mean, I think there is quite a bit of evidence that there is demand for shorter deadline games, my questions are more about future demands that may some day not be met.
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