Long term health of mafiascum

[Bicephalous Bob]

What do you mean by "functionally accomplished"? Creating a fullscreen chat on a separate page doesn't seem that difficult considering you already have the backbone and the rewards are great.

I think it would be more work than you realize? The rewards aren't great, they are very marginal when you can already expand a chat window to be nearly full screen.

Just don't print the phpBB wrapper? I did this in Firebug in 15 minutes: http://i.imgur.com/sX8yJtb.png

[chamber]

If all you are going to do is remove features, why do it at all?

Presumably to make a full screen client one should be reworking the way the tabing works for instance.

[Kagami]

Imo, keeping stats is dangerous due to the vagaries of game balance.

Players already feel cheated if they lost because they believe other team is too strong, it will be worse if losing becomes a mark on their permanent record.

I would also anticipate far more strategic replacing out, and replacing out is already something that happens too often.

Normal games could become ranked games.

Unless you can point out to me some incredibly and angrily unbalanced normals.

I think changing "normal" to "ranked" altogether would be awesome, with a Ranked Review Committee who ensures that roles are normal enough and balance is reasonable. It would also encourage more players to play normal games, while making themes more of "for fun"

[Psyche]

I think that if we combine it with a sufficiently well-publicized replacement karma system, it might work, though there will certainly be other complications.

[zoraster]

I don't think the karma system works within that framework. I don't think it works in EM especially if that's the basis for calling it a "karma" system. If you're thinking of something totally different, then I'm all ears.

[Bicephalous Bob]

I made it look slightly less like ass: http://i.imgur.com/VYlGAST.png

If all you are going to do is remove features, why do it at all?

Presumably to make a full screen client one should be reworking the way the tabing works for instance.

Removing unnecessary features is a good thing. As for reworking the back-end, the only change I can think of is that selecting a room should replace the OutputBuffer instead of creating a new tab.

[Bicephalous Bob]

And that the text input should go into the new room, of course.

[quadz08]

I think that a separate tab for chatrooms would actually be really awesome, and would go as far as to say it's probably necessary if we're planning on supporting automated chat mafia. Should still be at an ms.net URL, though.

[Psyche]

I don't think the karma system works within that framework. I don't think it works in EM especially if that's the basis for calling it a "karma" system. If you're thinking of something totally different, then I'm all ears.

like the one someone proposed earlier

[chamber]

If he's doing all the work I don't mind putting up a link for it.

This may not have been sufficiently clear; I mean hosting it here and etc too obviously.

[Majiffy]

I like 'yay'ing posts.

[KittyMo]

Xylbot is mediocre at best, from a UI/UX perspective. Plus as I recall the owner won't give out the source.

https://github.com/RossM/XylBot

[Phoenicks]

What about a new queue?

Most would-be-hosts don't slink off because they can't host C9++ or Fire and Ice; they want to host large games with new roles and flavor.

Could we try something like our Large Game queue that has much relaxed modding requirements, in exchange for requiring much shorter deadlines? Could we have a queue that works like players are used to from other sites?

Players who want the style we're used to with week-long phases would still, of course, create demand and supply for the kinds of games we're used to. And if deadlines are much shorter (say, 48 hours), would we need such heavy requirements on modding?

Bumping this.

(now on the other hand, if a new queue for slightly more quick-paced games were to be introduced, which is an idea I would support but which would deserve a separate thread for discussion

Is there interest in something like this? Longer games are the norm here, but there's no reason why we couldn't have a queue with shorter games and fewer restrictions (that isn't limited like the Micro queue).

Something like this could be an easy fix that doesn't destroy the queue system while offering new games to attract more players.

[quadz08]

There might be a place for it, but I'm not convinced it's actually 'fixing' anything.

[FakedBlogger]

Last but not least I'd ponder the mechanics of the game and what makes it fun and challenging to come up with a hybrid form between forum mafia and mmorpg that lasts something like 1 year/game. It would have to be dynamic in a way that favors the individual to choose strategically whether to be part of organized crime, law enforcement or be a neutral citizen to maximize one's success and gameplay in a way subjected to evolutionary laws to assure an axiomatic balance.

If you are going to troll at least do it on your main.

I'll stop posting immediately upon confirmation that my input is unappreciated, I wasn't trolling though. The idea of unshackling mafia, in a persistent world mmo manner while still maintaining a forum format, has been dodging negative selection from my mind for quite some time because I keep catching creative whiffs of potentially awesome gameplay.

Chances are there's a more realistic, complex, fun and rewarding way to simulate the manifestations at the individual level of the informed minority vs uninformed majority dynamic, true to the spirit of mafia as envisioned by that Russian guy, who said that you might as well replace "mafia" with "KGB", and that it's a game of understanding Stalin's regime a little better.

Finding it is a question of rehashing and re-imagining elements that have proven successful and fusing them bearing the philosophical exoskeleton mentioned above in mind. I'm thinking skill training (education), wild but domesticable economy {supply-demand, currency, raw materials, jobs (in industry, research, production, protection), corporations} a-la Eve Online, because first some self-sustaining virgin habitat needs to be established for the mafia to infiltrate, for it to be profitable for a mafia to emerge in the first place.

I'm afraid the level of abstraction in current games might prove too deep to have any future.

[Zachrulez]

What about a new queue?

Most would-be-hosts don't slink off because they can't host C9++ or Fire and Ice; they want to host large games with new roles and flavor.

Could we try something like our Large Game queue that has much relaxed modding requirements, in exchange for requiring much shorter deadlines? Could we have a queue that works like players are used to from other sites?

Players who want the style we're used to with week-long phases would still, of course, create demand and supply for the kinds of games we're used to. And if deadlines are much shorter (say, 48 hours), would we need such heavy requirements on modding?

Bumping this.

(now on the other hand, if a new queue for slightly more quick-paced games were to be introduced, which is an idea I would support but which would deserve a separate thread for discussion

Is there interest in something like this? Longer games are the norm here, but there's no reason why we couldn't have a queue with shorter games and fewer restrictions (that isn't limited like the Micro queue).

Something like this could be an easy fix that doesn't destroy the queue system while offering new games to attract more players.

I ran a faster paced game not that long ago actually. It seems to be a somewhat untapped type of game. All it really needs is more mods willing to do it and accept not having a game last all that long. Personally I don't have a problem one way or another. A faster game has the advantage of me needing to tend to it over a shorter period of time.

I don't think it's the type of thing we need a policy/queue for. This is one of those things that moderators have the power to do literally right now.

[Master Mew]

I ran a faster paced game not that long ago actually. It seems to be a somewhat untapped type of game. All it really needs is more mods willing to do it and accept not having a game last all that long. Personally I don't have a problem one way or another. A faster game has the advantage of me needing to tend to it over a shorter period of time.

I don't think it's the type of thing we need a policy/queue for. This is one of those things that moderators have the power to do literally right now.

I think you're right, however in the current setup the number of faster games (virtually zero) is limited by the number of mods willing to buck the trends in their respective queues, while a new queue would actually a.) encourage these setups, b.) be a great proving ground for entry-level mods, and c.) be a clearly designated place where players coming from a faster meta would feel comfortable easing into our community.

A new queue is almost like an official endorsement that says "Yes, Mafia Scum plays these types of games, too," and welcomes members from that (far more common) meta - so it really depends on whether or not we're open to adding that to our repertoire. If not, then yes I also hope more mods in other queues will try it out in the near future.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, but if we create a queue for every different idea we have, we'd have a lot of different queues, and the fact of the matter is unless I'm mistaken there's no queue outside of the newbie queue that actually mandates any deadline requirements. If you want that trend bucked in any meaningful way, it's probably more prudent to start with the newbie queue itself. That's where we're introducing that trend if anything.

And again, that's where I think the newbie queue might need some reform. We've been pretty firm on forcing newbies to play to our kind of deadline standards, but maybe we should be having different paced games there and worrying less about the setup. (Certainly sanctioning the idea of both faster and longer paced games there encourages that a variety of deadlines is acceptable in other queues.)

[Master Mew]

Yeah, but if we create a queue for every different idea we have, we'd have a lot of different queues

Well ignoring the slippery slope (we can say yes to this without saying yes to everything), it's not really a minor change. Short-deadline games have a very different dynamic. It's not completely crazy to designate them as "different" - they kind of are.

and the fact of the matter is unless I'm mistaken there's no queue outside of the newbie queue that actually mandates any deadline requirements. If you want that trend bucked in any meaningful way, it's probably more prudent to start with the newbie queue itself. That's where we're introducing that trend if anything.

And again, that's where I think the newbie queue might need some reform. We've been pretty firm on forcing newbies to play to our kind of deadline standards, but maybe we should be having different paced games there and worrying less about the setup. (Certainly sanctioning the idea of both faster and longer paced games there encourages that a variety of deadlines is acceptable in other queues.)

Yeah, varying the phase lengths in the Newbie Queue would be great - but that brings us back to "Why would we introduce newbies to a type of gameplay they'll probably never encounter outside the Newbie Queue?"

I still like the idea, just predicting the rebuttal.

[quadz08]

The newbie queue's guidelines should be responsive to site trends, not the other way around (hence the change a while back to two-week deadlines from three-week deadlines).

[Bicephalous Bob]

i found xylbot to be incredibly non-intuitive.

Is this mostly because of the text commands or are there other major reasons?

Creating a sidebar with dropdowns that send the commands for you (like the BBcode editor, except that it immediately sends the commands) would be relatively easy.

[saulres]

Certainly sanctioning the idea of both faster and longer paced games there encourages that a variety of deadlines is acceptable in other queues.

Except a newbie's experience in the queue I think usually amounts to one game, so they wouldn't see the variety first-hand.

[zoraster]

text commands were a major part of it. The varying open nature of the setups was also a huge problem in the same way that can occur in EM only worse: knowledge of what a setup is, the roles used (and not really explained to anyone but the person who has the role), and how to play it became assumed.

I just wouldn't use xylbot as a base. If you're going through the trouble of doing an entirely different interface, it'd be better just to craft an MS version.

[Bicephalous Bob]

The interface would probably be a slightly modified webIRC client, which should be easier than reinventing Mafia.

I'm looking through the source code. It already seems to support open setups and I think usepresetup allows human mods to run closed setups? Throwing out the crazy stuff should be doable.

[reinoe]

Actually, I think a survey for newbie players after they complete a game would be good...

1) What attracted you to mafiascum?

2) Why do you like here?

3) What would you like to see changed?

These questions are just off the top of my head but you get the idea. Obviously if someone site-flakes midgame they won't answer but I have seen people complete one or two games and it looks like they never come back.