Long term health of mafiascum

[saulres]

One of the benefits of the longer games is that players who do newbie games are checking the site for longer. In that time, new players are more likely to venture outside of the newbie game, whereas providing a close and quick end goal may limit the newbie experience to just that game.

I haven't checked, but isn't there a large need for replacements in newbie games, and mightn't that need be due to the longer games?

In other words, your assumption that players in newbie games check out the rest of the forum while they're playing the game. I'm questioning whether they're just checking out.

[fferyllt]

Sure, I'm always happy to chat, though I'm not the best true reviewer for games at the moment. But any general listmod stuff i'm almost always up to talk about.

I'd need to start with some thoughts and discussion about how short-deadline games would fit into a queue that's designed for slower-paced games.

Sure, but I don't really see any hang ups. The biggest is if you think quick games are supposed to be more shoddily made (or to be more generous: swiftly assembled) and all the requirements are a bit onerous.

It's things like the level of WOTM that would be needed to prevent a game from cratering under the common level of replace-outs/flakes in the first week of a typical large theme game. Gameflaking at MS is something really phenomenal compared to other places I've played.

The other thing to consider is that mods of very quick games have to be VERY on point. Updating a vote count once a day probably is insufficient.

Modding a fast paced game requires the mod to make as much or more commitment to being there in the moment as is required of players.

[HorseDetective]

It's always been slower, and we've always dealt with new players complaining -- many of whom go on to appreciate the slower pace. I think you have to understand that while newbie games are important for getting players to stick around, they're even more important to introducing new players to the way Mafiascum plays mafia (there is some question as to whether the semi-open nature does this, but little question that 2 weeks is more indicative of the experience than 1 week).

I also question whether really short newbie games really achieves what you think. One of the benefits of the longer games is that players who do newbie games are checking the site for longer. In that time, new players are more likely to venture outside of the newbie game, whereas providing a close and quick end goal may limit the newbie experience to just that game. The goal is integration, not just attraction.

As just an aside that has nothing to do with the quality of your ideas: could i interest you in a couple of paragraph breaks, Horse?

Genuine question, and I guess this is aimed at maybe fferyllt who has the experience from both, but is playing 1-week days significantly different to playing 2-week days? Intuitively, they don't seem worlds apart to me. I don't feel like if I played a 1 week game then a 2 week one I'd be unable to participate or have no idea what was going on. Surely the way Mafiascum plays is more dependent on site meta than deadline structure? and if so, can't site meta be learnt in 1 week days?

I guess I just don't agree with your second paragraph; although it's an empirical claim that could be easily tested and I could probably be proven wrong fairly easily: my guess is that (most) newbies will not feel comfortable moving outside into other games queues until they've at least finished or got relatively far into their first newbie game. It's certainly how I felt, and I don't feel like this is a particularly facet of my personality/attributes alone. If you want to integrate people, getting them through one finished game with less chance of drop-outs and at a reasonably good pace so they can move on to the rest of the site sooner seems like a draw.

Apologies, I have terrible tendency to drop paragraph breaks when I'm sort of thinking aloud - I type my thought process as it occurs, leading to rather rambling posts. I'll attempt to clear up afterwards more thoroughly. Also, just to stress, I'm not being super insistent on this or anything; I just thought you might appreciate my view as a, uh, 'failed' newbie. If it's out of the question, then I'm pretty happy just to discuss other things which probably also had marginal impacts, like site design.

[quadz08]

Zor isn't looking for newbies to venture into other games, I don't believe. (In fact, players in their first newbie game are not allowed to play in other games.) He wants them to venture into the discussion forums.

[chamber]

Zor isn't looking for newbies to venture into other games, I don't believe. (In fact, players in their first newbie game are not allowed to play in other games.) He wants them to venture into the discussion forums.

I think newbies are allowed to play in other games, just not multiple newbies.

[quadz08]

... You're probably right, actually. Scratch that.

[fferyllt]

It's always been slower, and we've always dealt with new players complaining -- many of whom go on to appreciate the slower pace. I think you have to understand that while newbie games are important for getting players to stick around, they're even more important to introducing new players to the way Mafiascum plays mafia (there is some question as to whether the semi-open nature does this, but little question that 2 weeks is more indicative of the experience than 1 week).

I also question whether really short newbie games really achieves what you think. One of the benefits of the longer games is that players who do newbie games are checking the site for longer. In that time, new players are more likely to venture outside of the newbie game, whereas providing a close and quick end goal may limit the newbie experience to just that game. The goal is integration, not just attraction.

As just an aside that has nothing to do with the quality of your ideas: could i interest you in a couple of paragraph breaks, Horse?

Genuine question, and I guess this is aimed at maybe fferyllt who has the experience from both, but is playing 1-week days significantly different to playing 2-week days? Intuitively, they don't seem worlds apart to me. I don't feel like if I played a 1 week game then a 2 week one I'd be unable to participate or have no idea what was going on. Surely the way Mafiascum plays is more dependent on site meta than deadline structure? and if so, can't site meta be learnt in 1 week days?

I guess I just don't agree with your second paragraph; although it's an empirical claim that could be easily tested and I could probably be proven wrong fairly easily: my guess is that (most) newbies will not feel comfortable moving outside into other games queues until they've at least finished or got relatively far into their first newbie game. It's certainly how I felt, and I don't feel like this is a particularly facet of my personality/attributes alone. If you want to integrate people, getting them through one finished game with less chance of drop-outs and at a reasonably good pace so they can move on to the rest of the site sooner seems like a draw.

Apologies, I have terrible tendency to drop paragraph breaks when I'm sort of thinking aloud - I type my thought process as it occurs, leading to rather rambling posts. I'll attempt to clear up afterwards more thoroughly. Also, just to stress, I'm not being super insistent on this or anything; I just thought you might appreciate my view as a, uh, 'failed' newbie. If it's out of the question, then I'm pretty happy just to discuss other things which probably also had marginal impacts, like site design.

Well, I'm picturing running a 72 hour day/24-48 hour night game early next year, and to try to prototype how that sort of timing/commitment would work here. That's 24 hours longer than the longest game days I generally played elsewhere. And I think the 48 hour night will be an opportunity for a breather for players as much as anything.

For me, planning/modding a game with 1 week days vs 2 weeks days really isn't that groundbreaking a difference, and I think the days would probably drag out due to having to add hours to the calendar for replacements.

[zoraster]

One of the benefits of the longer games is that players who do newbie games are checking the site for longer. In that time, new players are more likely to venture outside of the newbie game, whereas providing a close and quick end goal may limit the newbie experience to just that game.

I haven't checked, but isn't there a large need for replacements in newbie games, and mightn't that need be due to the longer games?

In other words, your assumption that players in newbie games check out the rest of the forum while they're playing the game. I'm questioning whether they're just checking out.

Probably, though I think you'll find that the vast majority of replacements are up-front replacements that occur either before the game actually starts (never pick up their role pm, etc.) or within a few days.

Sure, I'm always happy to chat, though I'm not the best true reviewer for games at the moment. But any general listmod stuff i'm almost always up to talk about.

I'd need to start with some thoughts and discussion about how short-deadline games would fit into a queue that's designed for slower-paced games.

Sure, but I don't really see any hang ups. The biggest is if you think quick games are supposed to be more shoddily made (or to be more generous: swiftly assembled) and all the requirements are a bit onerous.

It's things like the level of WOTM that would be needed to prevent a game from cratering under the common level of replace-outs/flakes in the first week of a typical large theme game. Gameflaking at MS is something really phenomenal compared to other places I've played.

Yeah. Generally I'm receptive to almost any system of enforcing a "good" player list except for those designed to get certain players slots over the pre-in limit.

It's always been slower, and we've always dealt with new players complaining -- many of whom go on to appreciate the slower pace. I think you have to understand that while newbie games are important for getting players to stick around, they're even more important to introducing new players to the way Mafiascum plays mafia (there is some question as to whether the semi-open nature does this, but little question that 2 weeks is more indicative of the experience than 1 week).

I also question whether really short newbie games really achieves what you think. One of the benefits of the longer games is that players who do newbie games are checking the site for longer. In that time, new players are more likely to venture outside of the newbie game, whereas providing a close and quick end goal may limit the newbie experience to just that game. The goal is integration, not just attraction.

As just an aside that has nothing to do with the quality of your ideas: could i interest you in a couple of paragraph breaks, Horse?

Genuine question, and I guess this is aimed at maybe fferyllt who has the experience from both, but is playing 1-week days significantly different to playing 2-week days? Intuitively, they don't seem worlds apart to me. I don't feel like if I played a 1 week game then a 2 week one I'd be unable to participate or have no idea what was going on. Surely the way Mafiascum plays is more dependent on site meta than deadline structure? and if so, can't site meta be learnt in 1 week days?

I guess I just don't agree with your second paragraph; although it's an empirical claim that could be easily tested and I could probably be proven wrong fairly easily: my guess is that (most) newbies will not feel comfortable moving outside into other games queues until they've at least finished or got relatively far into their first newbie game. It's certainly how I felt, and I don't feel like this is a particularly facet of my personality/attributes alone. If you want to integrate people, getting them through one finished game with less chance of drop-outs and at a reasonably good pace so they can move on to the rest of the site sooner seems like a draw.

Apologies, I have terrible tendency to drop paragraph breaks when I'm sort of thinking aloud - I type my thought process as it occurs, leading to rather rambling posts. I'll attempt to clear up afterwards more thoroughly. Also, just to stress, I'm not being super insistent on this or anything; I just thought you might appreciate my view as a, uh, 'failed' newbie. If it's out of the question, then I'm pretty happy just to discuss other things which probably also had marginal impacts, like site design.

You'd be amazed at how hard it is to actually collect data. Regardless, plenty of newbies start signing up for games before their newbie game is even over. Fewer get really into general discussion, but that's to be expected.

I'm not sure 1-week deadlines are necessarily that much worse than 2, but it doesn't allow the game to breath as much. Personally, I'm generally in favor of players feeling constantly time pressured without feeling like there's no time.

The other thing to realize is that as a site dedicated to mafia we have a LOT of games going on at any one time, and players play in quite a few. A not unusually active player may play 15 games in a year. They have to do so at a sustainable pace, and so one reason that the deadlines have historically been even slower is to allow games to function where people only post once a day, every other day, etc.

---
P-edit: Yeah. I'd love for newbies to start playing in other games as long as they don't do "sign up for all the things." Newbies will get a lot of what they need from a newbie game within the first week or so of playing.

[Cheery Dog]

I think I ventured out of the newbie queue during night 3 of my first game, and was always checking for more posts in it rather than elsewhere.

I originally started mafia with a 1-3:1 day phase and found ms's at the time 3-week deadlines to be much beret (i don't think the game ever went to deadline though) I once tried going back yip my old site, but it was still the same as when I left it of not really doing anything and just choosing someone at random to lynch. While I haven't experienced the game in a short deadline format where we needed the whole community playing to get the size games that were generally wanted, I just can't see those working.

I think there's is something to do with being on the other side of the world to most people that play here, but I never feel there's enough time for posting in anything less than two week deadlines, although I've rather not actually get near deadline ending. I've played a few that went as 10:1, the deadline always crept up on me.

Also if we change the newbie deadline, it's going to end up reaching the while site, when it was brought down from 3, I still thought that the default elsewhere was 3, even if that was something that changed in reverse.
It night not happen straight away, but it will in 5 months when those newbies get their opportunities to mod.

[N]

Why don't we just require mods to state how long they intend a day to be and whether or not they use plurality lynches? It drops the hint that we are looking to diversify the length of games, while making the decision as to how long a day should last a little more "democratic."

Mods are invited to post their rule sets when they enter sign ups, which should include these things.

[Marquis]

re: site design
the first time i found mafiascum i like triple checked i clicked the right search link because for a site ppl were telling me was the biggest online mafia place it looked really... old and outdated :/
i made an account here like 2012 iirc? and didn't really return because it felt like it didn't live up to rep, came back with this account because other places were dying out of desperation to find an somewhat active NOC mafia place
the basic forum.mafiascum.net page, mostly the header, almost looks like the site is barely used
first impressions man

ok sorry stepping out now

[Flubbernugget]

I'm still in favor of mods being more liberal with the deadlines of their games.

[Cheery Dog]

I'm still in favor of mods being more liberal with the deadlines of their games.

Newboes are still the only place that restricts what can be done. (well normals would probably reject if you went too low)
The only reason for newbies having it is because we want all newbies to have the same formatting. The amount that are slowed flavor had increased, although I think that may actually just be game titles, as numbers are easier to forget.

[zoraster]

I think it's worth pointing out that PLAYERS are in control of the timing too. If players want to end a day every 36 hours they can.

[reinoe]

I'm still in favor of mods being more liberal with the deadlines of their games.

Prof Fridays recently ran a mini-normal with a 10 day deadline, and many Micros have deadlines of 7 days.

Fakegod sets his Large Themes at 8 days I believe...

[esuriospiritus]

I'd be willing to mod/play in a shorter deadline game.

I think it's worth pointing out (if it hasn't been said already) that hydra-modding could help with the activity requirements for a short game on the mod end, and that's already not terribly uncommon.

[saulres]

On a different note: check out mafiascum.net. You know, that place a newbie might go before going to the forums?

Yeah. That needs some updating. Especially the scary text about the site maybe going down for a while many months ago

[Bicephalous Bob]

I think it's worth pointing out that PLAYERS are in control of the timing too. If players want to end a day every 36 hours they can.

You have to think poorly of your own ability to scumhunt if you stop trying to convince people and compromise after 2 days if you still have 12 days left

[Shadoweh]

I think it's worth pointing out that PLAYERS are in control of the timing too. If players want to end a day every 36 hours they can.

You have to think poorly of your own ability to scumhunt if you stop trying to convince people and compromise after 2 days if you still have 12 days left

Re: Zoraster, See above quote from Bob as to why that's an unfair statement. There's a mentality here about using every precious moment to the fullest among the players that already play here. I suspect the idea that if you're given that much time you HAVE to use it is a psychological thing. It would take a new player of immense Fate-like screaming charismatic proportions to have an effect on the trend. More likely newbie will be forced to suck it up and will either conform or go home.

Related, saying that the people who stay here get used to and learn to appreciate the deadlines as proof that they work is biased. Of course they acclimate to the deadlines. They're the ones that stayed. You're not going to hear much from the ones who didn't.

[zoraster]

I think both of those responses do not take into account the several pages worth of posts I've made focusing on mod enforced deadlines. My point was only that players are still ultimately in control of the pace of a game. There is a lot to be said for the slowest-common-denominator in practice.

Related, saying that the people who stay here get used to and learn to appreciate the deadlines as proof that they work is biased. Of course they acclimate to the deadlines. They're the ones that stayed. You're not going to hear much from the ones who didn't.

The flip side is that you have no more unbiased data than I do to say that those who left would have stayed if the deadlines were shorter on the site. Or more particularly that MORE people would have stayed with shorter deadlines. Biased or not, we have the player population we have. It's worth analyzing that.

[saulres]

On a different note: check out mafiascum.net. You know, that place a newbie might go before going to the forums?

Yeah. That needs some updating. Especially the scary text about the site maybe going down for a while many months ago

No seriously. I'd put money on some people seeing this and then saying "Well that site isn't maintained, why should I bother to go to it?"

May 27, 2014 - We are currently in the process of moving the site to a new server. Most of the data has been moved, but it may be a bit longer before everything is totally functional. -mith

That needs to be removed ASAP.

And then at some point, that page should be updated with marketing information. "Built-in Tools to make scumhunting easier!" "Multiple game styles!" "Exciting setups if you're adventurous, standard setups if you want something more traditional, and even newbie games where we teach as we play!"

[Majiffy]

Maybe not that last one. It's a lot of words. Just not catchy or eye-popping.

[zoraster]

"Do you wish you could yell at your friends on a more frequent basis on all matter of trivial things? Join Mafiascum today!"

Also, maybe I shouldn't say this but... I kind of think the name Mafiascum does us no favors.

[saulres]

Yeah I'm not a marketing guy. It's the point I'm trying to drive, not the particular text.

[chamber]

"Do you wish you could yell at your friends on a more frequent basis on all matter of trivial things? Join Mafiascum today!"

Also, maybe I shouldn't say this but... I kind of think the name Mafiascum does us no favors.

It's why the white red division is so important.