Micro 431 - Noughts and Crosses Mafia

[Scripten]

Hi Pine! Glad you're town this game.

Hi

Vettrock

, do you like noughts or crosses best?

VOTE: Mathdino

Because dinosaurs eat... rope?

P-EDIT: That was

my

first, Mathdino, you thief.

[Scripten]

VOTE: Mathdino

Because dinosaurs eat... rope?

That was clever.
That was really clever xD

I've literally been waiting for this since the beginning of Jurassic Park Mafia.

Did you know Pine was center square when you almost voted him? Or was it just seeing him in the playerlist?

[Scripten]

What I like about tic tac toe is that it's deterministic so whenever I do anything with it I can just program shit for me to win with. Graph theory is cool bro.

So yeah, corners. Not lynching conftown. We should still spend some time scumhunting, because if we hit scum, we're more likely to win. Center square isn't necessary to win a game so I wouldn't count on scum autolynching Pine, especially if his reads are off.

Regarding Pine: Coo coo.

[Scripten]

Center square isn't necessary to win a game so I wouldn't count on scum autolynching Pine, especially if his reads are off.

Actually, this is crazy WIFOM so please disregard. Math is right; scum will probably hit conftown/center square. No need to really setup spec any more than this. Anyone who doesn't follow, read this: How to never lose at tic tac toe (but not how to always win)

[Scripten]

T-Bone	Belisarius	Mathdino
Kaboose	Pine	vettrock
Equinox	Scripten	RedCoyote

T-Bone	Belisarius	Mathdino
Kaboose	Pine	vettrock
Equinox	Scripten	RedCoyote

T-Bone	Belisarius	Mathdino
Kaboose	Pine	vettrock
Equinox	Scripten	RedCoyote

Keep in mind that these will be subject to LyLo, however. We don't want the game to get to this point if we can help it.

PEDIT: Good point. Still, LyLo is something we should be keeping in mind. Scum can win by their normal wincon, too, and will do so earlier than town will by TTT rules.

[Scripten]

Correct, from my perspective, 3/7 of the time this won't work due to losing in LyLo.

As such, we can always completely abandon this and just find the scumteam.

Also I lol'd when I checked the wiki page. Micro 115, the first time this setup was played, town could've auto won after lynching scum D1 and mafia killing a side xD
The issue is, in order to autowin, they'd have been forced to lynch the centre, which is probably something people got cold feet about.

That game's only five pages. It doesn't take long at all to read the whole thing. Micro 130 is longer, but not by much, and is a little more interesting. I'm about halfway through.

[Scripten]

Correct, from my perspective, 3/7 of the time this won't work due to losing in LyLo.

As such, we can always completely abandon this and just find the scumteam.

Also I lol'd when I checked the wiki page. Micro 115, the first time this setup was played, town could've auto won after lynching scum D1 and mafia killing a side xD
The issue is, in order to autowin, they'd have been forced to lynch the centre, which is probably something people got cold feet about.

That game's only five pages. It doesn't take long at all to read the whole thing. Micro 130 is longer, but not by much, and is a little more interesting. I'm about halfway through.

Finished. Ended in LyLo. One of the friendliest games ever. One scum lurked a few days before being lynched and the other won LyLo due to a misinterpretation of a townie's D1 wagon. Not particularly illuminating, but it felt like good reading to prepare for this game.

[Scripten]

I'm down with lynching a corner, but haven't decided which one, so I'm not committing a vote. I know I'm not voting Mathdino, though.

Are you willing to vote T-Bone?

[Scripten]

Why not mathdino?

A non-obvBS attempt to create a breaking strategy on page 1. Yes, this could come from scum if there's a clear flaw to it that scum could exploit, but it's less likely to.

But the game wasn't broken is the thing. I'm not saying that Math is 100% caught scum based on setup spec, but the towncred from breaking the setup would be super useful. Consider the newest iteration. We're banking on one corner player being super townie to decide on where we lynch. There's plenty of potential scum motivation for a plan like that, just as there is potential town motive.

[Scripten]

Hey guys, I think Pine is town for including himself in his own lynchpool.

Regardless, I very much don't expect to be townread for setup spec, since that's pretty easy to fake and if the game's full of smart people (case and point: Kaboose

), it's probably gonna get broken anyway.

Scumhunting > setup spec. SS is just something to talk about at the beginning and a good way to structure the game.

This is actually more town to me than any of Math's other posts, ironically.

All lynches are pro-Town naughts

All night kills are pro-scum crosses

Why would we give the most powerful square to scum

Center square isn't the most powerful square, so forcing scum to either leave conftown in the game or take out the most convenient NK target would be optimal, since the worst thing that could happen would be we can guess their moves in advance. As others are saying, let scum play TTT. We'll play mafia.

Speaking of which, RedCoyote, Equinox, and Vettrock are all missing. I find this troubling, considering lurking scum did quite well in the last game of this setup. I know vettrock is a town lurker, but the other two I know nothing of.

[Scripten]

Our best bet is to take a corner, that gives us options. I think it should be RedCoyote. This is just the reaction I was resting for.the opportunity to lynch an Innocdnt Child who's willing to go is just too much a temptation

Vote RedCoyote

I was legitimately hoping this was what you were doing. I'm okay with this.

UNVOTE: Mathdino
VOTE: RedCoyote

This is L-1.

[Scripten]

In other news, vettrock is pinging me weirdly.

Have you played with Vettrock before?

***

(89) reads strangely for me.

Kaboose:

You wrote a lot about how that one particular quote was problematic, but that post just feels like fluff and posturing. Why aren't you voting for RedCoyote right now?

[Scripten]

Nope. Something I should know/read?

Nothing particularly solid. I played one game where Vettrock showed up and he pinged for me, as well. If you ISO him in Micro 382, you'll probably see a lot of the same red flags as in this game.

[Scripten]

Why aren't you following the thread? I have a vote on RedCoyote.

I wrote about the one part that stuck out to me because everyone else already hit home the rest of it. I didn't need to go over it again with the same brush.

Nevermind, I hadn't noticed that you'd RVS'd him. My bad.

I suppose this is fair. I assume, based on your post, that your RVS vote is serious now and you would like to see RedCoyote lynched, then?

[Scripten]

I could totally see T-Bone/Kaboose. Just caught up but I need to reread the longer posts to get a read on a few players. Still wtf-ing at T-Bone. Scumreading Vettrock and Kaboose atm.

Guess we'll see.

[Scripten]

If I get night killed, I absolutely without reservation DEMAND T-Bone's lynch. No excuses

I am so so so happy you said this Pine. Can you deWIFOM all of your reads before night, by any chance?

[Scripten]

Spoiler: Posts

T-Bone needs to give a lot more input than he already has before I'm near ready for a lynch.

I also want reads from the people who've spent all their time setup speccing.

Like vettrock

*goes offline for sleep and work*

*isn't putting in "effort"*

lol

So, does it change anyone's opinion that in the first two instances of this set-up someone always suggests that town lynches the IC for board control?

I'll hammer the fuck out of RC no problem...but why should I believe that him asking for this strategy THIS game when every time it has been asked for it has come from a town player (and the player shooting it down the most was scum). Why would scum touch that with a 10-ft pole?

But hey, let me hammer probtown cause I'm a scumfuck lol

Vote: RC

Scum is definitely Bel and Math, though since we're going down this path with RC a Bel or Math lynch are obvious next choices

T-Bone:

Talk to me about disconnects. How do these posts go in this order and NOT make you cringe? I'd like to see your train of thought that went from "There's not enough information in the thread for town to make well-informed lynch decisions." to "Let's quickhammer my town-read."

[Scripten]

Alas, that is correct.

I kind of want to lynch vettrock and win today, but if I'm wrong, we lose the initiative.

VOTE: Mathdino

Anyone else see a problem with this?

What kind of problem do you mean? Thinking Vettrock is scum is a pretty understandable position, as is not wanting scum to be able to choose our lynches for us. I can understand the dilemma.

[Scripten]

VOTE: Mathdino

I have no problems with this plan. Anyone not comfortable with Math at L-1, speak up now.

[Scripten]

UNVOTE: Mathdino

Hold up a second. I'm going to do a quick once-over before we lynch.

[Scripten]

Alright, so the way I see it is that we have two viable lynches today. (We could technically go for Equinox/Scripten, but I think Equinox is town and my townread of myself is implicit. I assume that if Vettrock is scum, he will probably try to fight the lynch by pushing either Equinox or me.) No matter what, both players in {Mathdino, Vettrock} or {Equinox, Scripten} will die today/tonight. Our lynch tomorrow will be chosen by our lynch today, as well, because of the rules of TTT. So, we have to choose either of the following configurations:

T-Bone	Belisarius	X Mathdino
X Kaboose	0 Pine	0 vettrock
Equinox	Scripten	X RedCoyote

or

T-Bone	Belisarius	0 Mathdino
Kaboose	0 Pine	X vettrock
X Equinox	Scripten	X RedCoyote

Now, you've probably noticed that the second version requires that I get NK'd, since otherwise scum will lose come my lynch. That means that the only possible LyLo configuration, assuming scum is not in {Mathdino, Vettrock, Equinox} is going to be Belisarius, Kaboose, and T-Bone.

On the other hand, the first version gives scum the power to choose who goes into LyLo, but only out of {T-Bone, Belisarius, Equinox, Scripten}. (Since it's LyLo, anyway, TTT rules stop mattering during the scum NK.) I personally like this option better because it puts significantly more townreads of mine into LyLo, which is a Good Thing.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

VOTE: Mathdino

[Scripten]

Actually I was looking at the wrong square. It would give us T-Bone, Equinox, and one Belisarius or Scripten.

Hm? Scum don't have to choose between just us. They can also hit the corners, since it will be LyLo and TTT rules won't matter.

[Scripten]

UNVOTE: Mathdino

[Scripten]

This was his first post of the day and when I saw it the first thing that popped in my head was that it didn't make sense.

Because there was no point voting Mathdino just to get to Vettrock, because if he was bold enough to suggest Vett is the last scum, but not willing to talk us in to it? What does it really matter if we're losing initiative(Which we wouldn't)? How does this add up, he clearly thinks Vett to be the last scum, but is happy to go along with the self-vote?

Since when is accepting the possibility of being wrong a scum mindset more than a town mindset? Players that put their "impeccable scumhunting" above town's best interests lose games.

Are you trying to insinuate that we should be lynching Belisarius?

This was his third post of D2 and again was not correct to me. Lynching Math doesn't put T-Bone anywhere near the line of fire. In fact it's pretty safe to assume T-Bone will be in LyLo if we get that far.

What gets me is he town read Mathdino and Equinox. Yet was sooooo fast to vote Mathdino, because he knows if we lynch Equinox he'll be in for a lynch come D3.

I can't speak for what Belisarius was saying with that post, but I think I see what he means. He's saying that, if we get to LyLo and it's three of {T-Bone, Belisarius, Equinox, Scripten}, T-Bone is pretty easy to pick out of those from a town!Belisarius PoV.

Your second statement makes no sense. Mathdino dies no matter whether we lynch him or Vettrock. So what you're saying is that you expect Belisarius to vote for Vettrock and force scum to NK Mathdino, thus forcing town to lynch Equinox, his townread, as opposed to forcing that same lynch on you, a scumread? Help me out here?

This reeks of scum trying to avoid losing the game. Just saying.

[Scripten]

Nah I'm not interested in letting scum tell me what to do Math.

Tell me more about scum!Mathdino, please.

[Scripten]

Okay, you guys both need to disengage.

T-Bone, if Math flips scum, we win. If Vettrock or Kaboose are scum, we win. The reason Math is losing his shit is because, if they are town, we enter LyLo with you. Right now you're not looking so town-like, since you seem to have a very, very erroneous PoV about how this game is working and are pushing that in an anti-town manner. You need to take a minute, analyze the game state, and think about different players' motivations. If you are not scum, you are playing in an anti-town way and you need to work on that so we can find the actual scum. Telling us that Mathdino is scum is completely useless.

[Scripten]

For one thing, it'll help "clear" you of being scum, which is pretty likely in my book.

[Scripten]

So, Math, I feel like it's only fair to give you the greatest gift of all. Who would you like to have hammer you?

[Scripten]

That is like the worst lynch we can do from a tic tac toe perspective.

What do you mean? Where would you rather be lynching than Mathdino right now?

P-Edit: ...

[Scripten]

Oh, gotcha. Nevermind.

Keep your vote on Math, please. We all know he's town, but the lynches that are being lined up are optimal for a pro-town game. Just cuz it's a micro doesn't mean it's less important. Just shorter and more to-the-wire, imo.

[Scripten]

Math let's be town in all of our games together.

[Scripten]

Keep in mind that we have a deadline of 3 days, and we're nearing New Year's Day. There's only so long we can wait to manage votes.

[Scripten]

VOTE: Mathdino

Well, that kinda seals the deal for me.

[Scripten]

Wait what? I clearly don't know what I think.

Hit me with your best Pol Pot joke!

Well, he called the kettle a dictator, for one thing.

[Scripten]

Hm... well, we can't exactly avoid it, now. Kaboose, since you're now in the position Mathdino was in before as almost confirmed town, it would be good to have you interacting with those of us who will be entering LyLo. After all, there's no point debating whether you are scum or not now, since if you're scum, we've won already.

I'd like to use this time to talk about who we'd like to see lynched tomorrow, before the night kill has eliminated a townie.

[Scripten]

First
----------
T-Bone
Belisaurius
Equinox
----------
Last

Subject to change, of course.

[Scripten]

Equinox, Beli, Scripten from most to least.

Why Equinox before Beli? I thought you were convinced that Beli was scum?

[Scripten]

I was convinced it was him and Math, but that has since been blown up.

Uhh... you are aware that this is a two-scum setup, right? Like, after RC flipped, you should have known there was only one scum left.

Wondering whether miscounting remaining scum is a town- or scum-slip.

It's really easy for Equinoxscum to have minimal input (and his input was minimal before his v/la), because of how loud so many other players are. Plus with everyone going "lol Bone is getting mislynched in LyLo" he doesn't have to do anything. Someone early on pointed out that lurking scum is probably the best way to win this set-up, and I buy it as the most likely strategy being implored. Though really Beliscum can do whatever the fuck he wants (and he is) because he is going to take whoever is going to vote for me with minimal discussion.

There is very little I can do to prevent the scum victory though, I am at the top of all the LyLo lists, so we've already lost. I've hardly done anything pro-scum this game but fuck it because I'm obviously scum trying to draw as much attention to myself as possible and quick hammering my buddy on Day 1 for the lulz. Because THAT is the simplest scenario.

This is starting to make me lean toward town, tho.

[Scripten]

I like Equinox the most, and you and Scripten the least. That's my case.

The problem I have with that is that three of us are town and we need your help come the next day phase to figure out who is the odd one out.

Also, are you essentially guessing that Equinox is going to be night killed, then?

[Scripten]

There's only one scum, but there are four of us. The more scumhunting we do now, the better our chances when people start dropping.

Why would I answer that? Why would I help scum figure out their next night kill? Also what good is my help if the person I'm scum leaning ends up night killed? You'd be in the same spot as you will be with me saying what I just said.

But where will we be if the person you're scumreading isn't killed? In that case, we'll have the observations of conftown to help us when we're in LyLo. So in one case, we have a pro-town situation and in another, we are right where we started. Net gain.

[Scripten]

Am I right that no one wants to be the second vote? Why havent I been voted on any?

It would be nice not to have you at L-1 until we have to. More quickhammering would just be WIFOM right now for me.

[Scripten]

Scripten if you could only choose between your lynch and equinox's lynch to win, who would you chose?

VOTE: Kaboose

There, now scum can't tie the vote at the last minute. All they can do is quickhammer. Assume I will vote anyone who quickhammers right out of the gate tomorrow. No exceptions.

Anyhow, to answer your question, I would obviously choose Equinox. Since I'm town, my lynch would lose us the game. The only possible way to win would be through lynching Equinox, though I do not think she is likely scum.

[Scripten]

Why do you assume you would be alive the next day phase?

Where did I say that? My lynch today would lose us the game, because I'm town and scum would NK for the win via TTT. (Unless you're the last scum, but that's not a chance I'm willing to take.) My lynch tomorrow will lose us the game because tomorrow is LyLo.

So between the two of us, I would have to put my chips on Equi flipping scum.

[Scripten]

I admit your question probably was the trickiest, I was just simply coming up with random things to get people talking about whatever. My point here is that in your first sentence:

now scum can't tie the vote at the last minute.

This makes little sense to me because there's only 1 scum left. Even if they voted someone else, there'd be 3 other people out there to cast those last two votes.

There's only one scum left, so there's only one vote that could potentially end today in a no-lynch. Now that situation is impossible, even if nobody else votes before deadline. (You now have two votes and scum only one. It would require another townie voting elsewhere, which is unlikely since it would likely lose us the game.)

Now my point about you assuming you'll be alive is in your third sentence:

Assume I will vote anyone who quickhammers right out of the gate tomorrow.

If any of the three others quick hammer right now. Why do you assume you'd be alive the next day phase to vote for them?

If I die in the night, then I would hope the remaining townies would realize the person who quickhammered today killed me. I posted that to keep town or scum from quickhammering more than as a simple threat.

[Scripten]

Well shit. I was hoping this wouldn't be the case.

[Scripten]

That's great. You might as well both crossvote and then help me figure out which of you is scum and which is town.

[Scripten]

Annnnnnd now I have doubts.

Why do you need us to crossvote in order to figure anything out?

Why are you all the sudden hesitant to vote? You were ready to quicklynch T-Bone not that long ago.

[Scripten]

That was before you got so hurry-up-and-votey.

If I was scum, don't you think optimum solution would be to go along with you and vote T-Bone? I find it strange that the suggestion of a cross-vote makes you nervous, but not the idea of me quicklynching alongside you.

That is to say, you're suddenly worried when the idea of you possibly being lynched is aired.

[Scripten]

Oh.

I guess you are scum.

If I'd voted, sure. But what happens when

you

vote first, with practically zero discussion during lylo: I'd post "not scum" right afterwards and remove your ability to push a lynch on me if I didn't stick to the plan from previous Days. T-Bone would then

know

you're scum, and the cross-vote situation puts you squarely in the line of fire if I look over your ISO more closely, like I just did, and noticed all of the nervous energy evinced by the rapid-fire sentence fragments you used early on before you became confident that you were definitely going to win.

So that was a reaction test?

Laughable backpedaling going on here.

I could notice that that nervous energy dissipated when it became clear that Math was going to be lynched D2 instead of Equinox, who would have been an equally valid move from a TTT perspective, which put the game on a trajectory that led clearly to you being in lylo.

When was Equinox viable as a lynch in D2?

I could revisit that you were

so

confident that you weren't going to get NK'd last night. I

sure as hell

noticed that you waltzed into lylo acting like you're actually conftown, and anyone with even a basic understanding of marketing knows the principle of brainwashing people into believing something just by repeating it often enough.

Oh, so it

is

scummy now that it's convenient for you to use? Weird how that happens.

T-Bone, conversely, didn't vote right at the beginning, and scum who thought they'd already lost the way T-Bone does would have nothing to lose. Why didn't he vote me? Because he's not sure he's right. He would be sure of both of our alignments if he were scum. From a scum T-Bone perspective, a Beli vote would be one last fuck you to town, and I know if I walk into lylo certain of losing, I'm going to face Jack Ketch with a defiant snarl and an upraised middle finger. I'd want to go down like Khan, quoting Melville.

So now that you're caught, you're trying to buddy T-Bone?

Your logic is pretty bad, by the way. Even newbie scum would know that being first to vote in LyLo would absolutely out them in this situation. Your reasons for switching to T-Bone from me are pretty simple. You know I've caught you and you need to 180 on him to get him to vote with you.

Considering you were ready to go right out of the gate on T-Bone but now suddenly want him to vote with you is a little blatant, don't you think?

You sure you want me to vote right now?

Doesn't really matter much to me where your vote is, now. You still need town to vote with you regardless of whether you're voting me or T-Bone.

By the way, you're still dodging the question about why you need me and T-Bone to crossvote before you can scumhunt.

I haven't started scumhunting yet? From the looks of things, I've caught scum.

[Scripten]

The argument that "only scum" vote first in LyLo is a stupid one, because someone HAS to vote first eventually. I briefly considered playing that game where I would vote Beli then immediately unvote, but that was probably just dumb. But so is your point on that. If I'm scum (from your PoV) Beli voting first and you going "not scum lol" wouldn't do anything to solve the game, wouldn't do anything to prove he's scum.

You're right about most situations, though voting right out the gate is anti-town in most cases. That said, in this situation, it should be obvious that you would have been scumread were you to vote right out the gate, so him clearing you for that simple of a reason is a blatant attempt to try to buddy you.

[Scripten]

What did you both think of F-16 yesterday?

I'm not sure what there is to think of his play. He sorta just showed up and was NK'd, I guess? I don't have any meta experience with him, so I don't know how his LyLo play would be like and if that would contribute to the NK choice.

[Scripten]

A couple of options: a) I hammer Kaboose and we either win or the game goes to 3P LYLO. I'm not very optimistic on us winning considering Kaboose's attitude reads as town as is his willingness to allow himself to be lynched. b) We scumhunt as normal and try and figure out who the remaining scum is. I believe choice (a) is more statistically optimal though and perhaps even preferable.

I will not one thing though - It is actually suboptimal for us to discuss our reads if the day ends up being a lynch on Kaboose for Tic Tac Toe purposes. That only provides scum with information on who to nightkill. It is somewhat similar to the day of a no lynch before MYLO. Explaining our reads help scum make better choices tonight. What you guys did earlier with the list of reads from towniest to scummiest was something I thought wasn't helpful but what's done is done.

This is the only post of his that has any real content going on. I stripped out everything that isn't relevant from it, and what I'm left with is the following:
- He figured correctly that Kaboose was town, but that lynching him was statistically the most logical thing to do.
- He thought that us doing reads lists was suboptimal. I'm not sure what to think of that, to be honest. I thought that my reads were fairly evident anyway, but I can sort of see the logic behind it.

Also I've have the pleasure to sit in the position of scum being townread at 3p LyLo before and have done like you did, I said something to the effect of "sigh, you guys should cross vote and I'll try to figure it out". So I get where Beli is coming from, where were you coming from?

Pretty much what I said in (423). I didn't like the way he came in with his "Let's quicklynch T-Bone, Scripten buddy!" I was also really bugged by the following trajectory:

Do you think Scripten assuming he'll be alive on the last day was at all a slip of some type?

No. I'm assuming that I'll be alive on the last day as well, it's statistically pretty likely.

It'll definitely be either Scripten or me, and I think it's more likely for Scripten to eat the NK due to the fact that more people want to lynch me than him, but that could easily be a perspective problem.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Ready to vote T-Bone and win this any ol' time.

I caught what he was setting up, basically. His (424) was exactly where I expected him to turn as scum when I didn't automatically go along with him.

[Scripten]

No. I was pretty sure until you asked me and T-Bone to crossvote.

So what

was

the point of that first post of the day?

All of it. I wanted to lynch Mathdino to get vet and T-Bone and spare Equinox, so I was happy to go along with Math's volunteering to get lynched, but lynching Equinox would have been a better move for anyone who wanted to get

you

and spare Mathdino.

You wanted to lynch Mathdino to get Vettrock and T-Bone? How's that work, exactly?

This part of your post makes no sense. I said that Equinox wasn't a viable lynch and you respond by saying it was because it would have been a better move to get me. How does that make it viable?

That's not what I said. I thought it wasn't relevant

then

...but then you asked me to crossvote. That made me re-evaluate my position. Townies who want to win need to be willing to re-evaluate their reads.

So it's not scummy until you need to use it to bullshit up a case as quickly as possible. Nice.

By the way, good job glossing over this without looking like you were glossing over it by quoting two sentences and only respondng to one:

I

sure as hell

noticed that you waltzed into lylo acting like you're actually conftown, and anyone with even a basic understanding of marketing knows the principle of brainwashing people into believing something just by repeating it often enough.

Because the other part of that quote is fluffy, empty BS, perhaps? Are you next going to accuse me of hiding blipverts in my text?

Now that

you're

caught, I'm trying to get you lynched. I need T-Bone's vote to do that.

Semantics.

Your

logic is pretty bad. The gamestate at the time would have cost T-Bone

nothing

to throw out a vote as scum. As town, though, voting wrong would make him culpable for the loss instead of just being unfortunate.

Cost him nothing but the game, you mean. You've flipped your opinion on him 180 because, as you stated in (424), he didn't vote immediately out of the gate. He was already being scumread, as you said, so that reasoning is complete bunk. You say that he had nothing to lose, but I say he could have had something to gain. That said, it's irrelevant. What's important is your play so far.

The gamestate at the time I switched from T-Bone to you had us on the same side. You've been buddying me all goddamn game, you attacked Kaboose in your #256 for attacking me, and you reached out to me for a T-Bone lynch as early as #23. The only way I would have seen you voting me at the start of this Day is if T-Bone voted first and you were scum. Here's where Occam's Razor applies: You're attacking

me

because you thought you had me in your back pocket and now you're pissed that your surefire win has gone away.

Ah, that's why you killed the F-16 slot instead of me. You thought that if you went into LyLo with a replacement, they'd catch onto you. Yes, I scumread Kaboose for his post. It reeked of self-preservation rather than actual scumhunting. He found your statement scummy despite the fact that it put him, a "scumread" of yours, in the line of fire instead of Equinox, a "townread" of yours.

Kaboose did have an interesting observation in (254) that I had overlooked until recently. You keep saying that lynching Mathdino puts T-Bone in the line of fire. You're still saying it. Explain to me how, other than scum trying to maintain consistency, that works?

Doesn't really matter much to me where your vote is, now. You still need town to vote with you regardless of whether you're voting me or T-Bone.

That's a tautology. No wagon can go to lynch without town on it at any phase of Mafia, or the game would be over. Words, words, words.

Did you forget the empty question that I was replying to already? Usually I cut the fluff out of posts I'm replying to, but this is a special kind of hypocrisy.

[Scripten]

Announcing how sure I was, at that time, that T-Bone was the last scum -- based primarily on RC's maneuvering to make T-Bone untouchable unless we wanted to risk scum winning via TTT.

Useful indeed.

Lynch mathdino and even if vett wasn't NK'd, we'd have lynched him for the TTT win. As of D2 T-Bone was untouchable because it wouldn't have set up the board for a TTT win, but with a T on Mathdino's square, T-Bone would be a viable lynch again unless we were blocking.

Yeah, but with an Equinox lynch, you seem to forget that it would have killed both of us off. No matter what, T-Bone would have been in the same position come LyLo. You've spent all game trying to paint T-bone as scum and grooming me to vote him alongside you, and now you're trying to get me lynched because I didn't follow your script and T-Bone is suddenly not as viable as you'd hoped.

I don't understand how you're not getting this. For what reason would you say an Equinox lynch was

not

viable? Because Mathdino volunteered? We could have overruled him.

Nobody was going to vote Equinox that day. A cursory examination of the game state would reveal that. This is an empty argument and I'm not following it up.

Fluffy my ass. It's proven that that kind of brainwashing works. Town doesn't want to brainwash anyone in lylo. Scum does.

Yes, because I've been exceptionally screaming how town I am all game. Please.

[Scripten]

Nobody was going to vote Equinox that day.

Yeah, look, buddy, I've already shown you that making assertions instead of showing reasons isn't going to cut it with me. The fact that you keep doing it just seals the deal. I'm ready to take the risk.

VOTE: Scripten

I guess we'll find out soon if T-Bone is scum or not. If he is, we've pretty much already lost. If you are, my vote isn't going to lose us the game.

Enjoy.

VOTE: Belisarius

[Scripten]

YES! Good game, town.

And good play, scumteam. You almost got me, Beli.

[Scripten]

Maybe we're all trolling.

[Scripten]

Deadchat must be quite irate, whether or not there are spoilers.

[Scripten]

Ah.

Well you got us, then, T-Bone. Congrats.

[Scripten]

Darn. Ah well, that's just how things go sometimes. I was thinking it was T-Bone for most of the game until later into D3, where he was starting to act very town indeed.

Oh! Beli, one of the things that made me think you were scum on my reread before LyLo was when you mentioned that T-Bone was looking mighty town-like and followed with a sort of downtrodden post that looked like you were trying to copy his AtE. (222) also bothered me when we hit LyLo and Equinox was dead. That was my own fault.

Sorry for the hastily conceived reaction test. I thought you were trying to test if you could buddy me in LyLo, so I tried to turn that against you. I should have remembered my adage about town being most likely to tunnel one another.