NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[Thor665]

What do you think gm's motivation was behind her tunnel on you?

Bad play - I said that in thread a number of times.
Even her own explanation started and ended at 'gut'.
She even sat there during a phase when we had at least 1 confirmed scum between two players, called them both scum, and kept voting me - she was playing terribly.

I like that muffin wouldn't play lawyer with you and called you out on it.

So...basically you like that he was argumentative without backing up his case and that translates to it being a good case simply because he was town aligned?
GM was also town aligned - was her case on me good also post awareness of that fact?
This is flim-flam.

And will you stop with these Smurfing numbers because you had a 1/2 chance of lynching scum between that cc so whatever tactics you want to say you're using to scumhunt don't hold water with that lynch.

Some confirmed town players were unable to manage what I did, and you're acting like they had cases worth listening to - so I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.
I'm still not sure, honestly.

I would agree - but nothing present in thread supports that hypothesis, so...do you think we should debate something that has no evidence supporting it happened?

Do you see me debating that it is worth lynching you ? Do you see my vote being place on you screaming "guys lynch thor"? I believe the answer it is pretty self explanatory.

You're the one who brought it up, not me.
Why bring it up if you had no belief in it and no desire to push it?
Serious question.

[Shiro]

You're the one who brought it up, not me.
Why bring it up if you had no belief in it and no desire to push it?
Serious question.

Cause you said there was no way for her to ever clear you.

Kinda didn't want to just leave it to that so I added the fact that she could have however found incriminating stuff after day 2 thus coninuing pushing you. It not something I want to push but a consideration since she parked her vote on you even though lynching you was impossible. So I expressed so.

[Flubbernugget]

@thor

The whole argument with Muffin was for you to not use wordplay as a case. That's a pretty good stance to argue. His flip confirms the motivation behind his stance.

I didn't listen to a single case between the cc's because they were both as good as dead so it didn't matter. As far as I'm concerned you got lucky and there's no way to prove otherwise.

[AxleGreaser]

The whole argument with Muffin was for you to not use wordplay as a case. That's a pretty good stance to argue. His flip confirms the motivation behind his stance.

Hi, Ok I think i now see what your point is, and i dont like it. I dont like it so much i want to explain to you and have you not like it. (Do note i may well be offering you a different point instead.)

Thor posted stuff indicating that Shiro was scummy, (it was something to do with how many times he mentioned/referenced made thoughts about who). it was BS. it was bad mafia.

Spoiler: why it was bad...

Thors push on Shiro, was overly pedantic an assumed a connection between how >much< you talk about someone and who you vote for.. (That may be >A bit< true if you are in for the whole game but Shiro replaced in.)
Do note you can measure how _much_ by pretty much any metric you like and it is bad.(not alignment indicative)
POE gets you who to vote, as does finding scum tells in the guy you talked to or about(or watched). So there is no real need for Shiro to have talked much about who Shiro voted, especially given the time of day Shiro joined the game as a replacement.
Also, interacting with other players (eg me/Axle) can generate mentions/thoughts/pronouns/names ... or any other silly metric
(and it did) I asked a question shiro answered(responsively...)
The ONLY alignment relevant things are why people(Shiro in this case) did stuff. or perhaps how. Was Shiro nervous shifty, trying to vote and lynch PeregrineV but dodge responsibility (distance from a known to be towny lynch) ... Blah neither Muffin nor Thor were addressing that.

Spoiler: why it might not have been bad

Frankly I assumed neither were playing bad and both were hamming it up, to make noise (busy work) around Shiro to see how Shiro (and everyone else) reacted.
The reason for muffins flip however shows me muffin was serious, which makes me go :O
However Shiro was new replacement player, pushing Shiro >>>even if badly<<< was good thing to do.

Indeed
If thor had not done that, I might well have instead of defending Shiro...
pushed a bit badly/softly to find out if Shiro is scum..
then either pushing for real := to lynch
or backing off
AKA bad pushes can be quite _good_ reaction tests (as opposed to crack cocaine variety of reaction tests,see previous sig: about silly gambits)

Muffin ignored that it was BS and or playing bad and >>>bought into<<< debating Thor on semantics...
and frankly TBMK no one ever chose the actual 'best' metric which would have been to count sentences (thoughts) on the topic of each player... and (even thats bad as long run on sentences such as this one contain multiple thoughts that were all joined together with joining words. (so no counting actual thought is counting thoughts and the counting metrics are and were all crap.

So if you want argue Thors, push on Shiro was bad. Argue it in an alignment indicative way.

Are you arguing Thor was at that time:
actually driving to get Shiro mislynched?
distancing from Shiro with a shit wagon that would never fly?
Feeling around to find out which mislynch wouldn't get defended by some dumb towny? (found dave eventually?)
... some other scummy purpose.

Scum hunting by pushing low hanging fruit badly to see how the fruit and any vultures reacted? (Thats what I watched and looked for...)

@Thor

. Feel free to instead argue that your push on Shiro and the reasons for it were actually good

and

alignment indicative.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP Oh my cookie cutter sig is still current.
"Silly (cookie cutter) gambits: The crack cocaine of playing mafia."
"Silly (non cookie cutter) gambits: The designer drug of playing mafia." : Axle
I could add ... Bad metric's are Bad. but no silly gambits are a special kind of bad

[Nero Cain]

I mean I know there is a chance the vigilante is even night or some shit but how high is the chance that someone shot boon n1 and n3 so they can kill him tommorow?

I think the chances that scum waste three shots on a player are fairly slim.

Talk to me about Iz. What were you townreading her form what made you doubt your town read?

[AxleGreaser]

@SHiro

I think the chances that scum waste three shots on a player are fairly slim.

given the alternative is shoot three guys each with a vote, or take the risk that when leaving boon alive until endgame and wondering if this will happen

We're getting to the point where I believe I'm going to actually start becoming a strong town player in this game.

I actually start to become a pretty strong town player mid-game.

so no I think, even if they had already wasted a shot n1,
unless they believed he was actually a 1 shot BP, who fake soft claimed PR to get shot then fake claimed 2 shot so as to not get shot... when he really should have at most claimed 1 shot BP, if he was still trying to draw nk's)

so yeah WIFOM is deep.

best idea is just play mafia and try to read the guys alignment the old fashioned way.

[AxleGreaser]

The whole argument with Muffin was for you to not use wordplay as a case.

Muffin appears interested in exact words

Your exact words were "look how many thoughts were posted about Anen". I interpreted that as "number of mentions". Obviously you felt that that is the wrong interpretation. Fine.

here is muffin not objecting to Thor criteria or how carefully he chose the words, or tightly interpreted them

Spoiler: This is muffin buying into the idea that counting any of the things usggested was important at all

I exhausted every definition in my head for "how many thoughts were posted about a player". I see no other way to count "thoughts posted about" someone. You shot down the only two ways I could think of to quantify them. So what else should I have assumed but quality? You were the one that used the phrase "degree of mentions" as if that means anything concrete at all.

Here's how this works. You have two options and two only:

Post your own list/comparison of the number of Shiro's thoughts posted about Anen vs. thoughts about Pere, since you seem to disagree so strongly with mine. It should be easy for you to do.

or

STFU

I dont see Muffin saying dont use word play as case. Thread is big: show me where you see it?

[Thor665]

Cause you said there was no way for her to ever clear you.

Kinda didn't want to just leave it to that so I added the fact that she could have however found incriminating stuff after day 2 thus coninuing pushing you. It not something I want to push but a consideration since she parked her vote on you even though lynching you was impossible. So I expressed so.

So because I said there was no way for her to clear me, you decided to point out that there was a way she could have found me suspicious even though you had no desire to argue that this situation had occurred in any way at all.

I fail to follow the logic here still.

The whole argument with Muffin was for you to not use wordplay as a case.

How was that his case at all?

@Thor

. Feel free to instead argue that your push on Shiro and the reasons for it were actually good

and

alignment indicative.

Why would I want to do that?

[AxleGreaser]

Why would I want to do that?

reasons?
# Well you never lose arguments, you might want to find out what is like?
# Ego?
# ...

However, as I am currently in some effect batting away Flubber, it would seem silly. BUT as my post 5528 also listed ways that a mafia player could try to interpret your push on Shiro as scum motivated, you might want to tie your self to the anchor that counting gak was alignment indicative? bascially, I Got no idea, but then I got no idea why muffin got muffin mod killed, (up until that happened I thought it was all just beer and skittles,) so i have evidence there are lots things I dont know...

Besides I thought it would be polite to mention you as

I feel like we're getting somewhere now.

I seem to be butting in, when you finally started getting somewhere..
(and i have poked things as I'd like them go somewhere just little different and see if thats useful)

Also just because I offered does not mean I think you should, it would be wise to as any alignment, or ...

[Thor665]

If I wished to argue that I never would have unvoted Shiro.
I unvoted Shiro.
Stop wasting my time.

[Aegor]

Votecount 4.3

[2]

Izariael:

Nero Cain, Slandaar
[2]

Josh_B:

Thor665, Shiro
[2]

Nero Cain:

Boonskiies, AxleGreaser
[1]

Boonskiies:

Flubbernugget
[1]

Thor665:

Izariael


[2]

Not Voting:

Josh_B, T S O

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 4 deadline:

(expired on 2014-12-28 05:24:51)

Mod Notes

Pine replaces Josh_B effective immediately. The deadline has been set back to 7 days in order to accommodate the replacement.

[Nero Cain]

So flub and Iz are both double voters and two of Thor, Shiro and Slan are voteless.

My apologies; I am extremely tired, but I wanted to get a VC up. It should be accurate now; thank you for pointing out the errors.

[AxleGreaser]

@Flub

So flub, hopefully I wasn't wasting your time.
Please read 5528 and tell what that means for your current push on Thor.

@mod: VC is all kinds of wrong, up to and including majority size.

[AxleGreaser]

@mod oops too late sry

I believe everything was fixed; let me know if not.

[Shiro]

@Nero it is more along the lines I never saw anything as scummy thus lean town

As for what made me rethink I checked him out and realised he kind of stayed at the sidelines yesterday and although some say she made it apparent here as well I only realised she is investigating PR in our hood and that made me think that our hood has scum. Between Boon and Iz I think it would be Iz.

Regardless of all that I still leab town just weaker.

Josh(now pine) is best choice. I dont think we can go wrong there.

Would go for flub based on the fact he parked his vote yestersay alone. We were discussing cop claim,parking your vote and going MIA not the towniest thing. I also find his push on Thor now based on Muffin horrible.
Still prefer Josh lynch.

[AxleGreaser]

I dont know if it was more clear in the hood and you cant quote that. What I noticed (and scum could have<

hmmm that makes me think

>) was.

As for what made me rethink I checked him out and realised he kind of stayed at the sidelines yesterday and although

some say

she made it apparent here as well I only realised she is investigating PR in our hood and that made me think that our hood has scum. Between Boon and Iz I think it would be Iz.

yeah I didn't link where
4824 4839 both were strong statements that seemed too strong to be based on the same information I had. While even at that time I didnt like either claim GM's statements had a kind of certainty to it.
That would be explained by GM having an unstated CC, of investigative role (I thought cop, I didnt think of tracker). It would also explain GMs

Thor lynch is definitely happening, though probably not today.

Which I took it to be when GM gets her guilty check/or GM flips.

[AxleGreaser]

@Pine .... Hi welcome to the party(literally)... Shiro thinks you ought be the new guest of honor...
I have had a scum read on your slot too....(I think I still do) (Threads big... I will see if i can give you the low down on that and why I am currently voting Nero a little later)

[Flubbernugget]

@Flub

So flub, hopefully I wasn't wasting your time.
Please read 5528 and tell what that means for your current push on Thor.

@mod: VC is all kinds of wrong, up to and including majority size.

You are wasting my time because you seem to not understand the concept of a gunsmith.

[Flubbernugget]

What's the point in all the excess discussion when both are as good as dead?

@shiro

[Shiro]

Gosh I dunno flubb maybe getting the mafia so we dont waste a lynch and force a specific kill from scum ?

You do realise had we lynched beaast we would waste this day lynching rei and mafia would have had an extra kill because they wouldn't have been forced to kill beast.

For all we know both scum team could have shot beast and Gm is vig thus averting 2 deaths by getting it right.

Does this answer your question flub?

[AxleGreaser]

@Flub

So flub, hopefully I wasn't wasting your time.
Please read 5528 and tell what that means for your current push on Thor.

@mod: VC is all kinds of wrong, up to and including majority size.

You are wasting my time because you seem to not understand the concept of a gunsmith.

Well it is true i have not played with one before and i just checked and yes the understanding of gunsmith i got when they were mentioned earlier was accurate.
So what exactly does gunsmith have to with, muffins 'case'. or my post.

We have two flipped investigative town power roles... are you suggesting there would be another one?

or are you just wasting my time..

[Slandaar]

@Slandaar - I feel Iz talks in a way that he knows more than we do.

The asymmetrical scumteam stuff smells a bit like this, yes.

he kind of stayed at the sidelines yesterday

Yes, somewhat, as I recall he mostly was arguing with me.

Here is an extract from one of his posts where he is being useful;

For claimed PRs, we have the following:

2-shot bulletproof (claimed; Boon)
1-shot jailkeeper (claimed; Thor)
Even-night cop (claimed by both beast and reinoe)

I doubt all of the above claims are town (and certainly one between beast/reinoe is lying, right?)

It's just pointless noise.

Does this answer your question flub?

[Pine]

Salutations

I'll do some catch up, will not be reading the whole thread

What do I need to know

[Flubbernugget]

Gosh I dunno flubb maybe getting the mafia so we dont waste a lynch and force a specific kill from scum ?

You do realise had we lynched beaast we would waste this day lynching rei and mafia would have had an extra kill because they wouldn't have been forced to kill beast.

For all we know both scum team could have shot beast and Gm is vig thus averting 2 deaths by getting it right.

Does this answer your question flub?

Yes. But why did you answer this now and not when it would have been useful?