Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[acryon]

I'm with Gliffie.

VOTE: Ginko

[acryon]

VOTE: acryon

I was just trying to sheep I thought we were friends?

[acryon]

im going to seer u tonight

I'm fine with that, because then you can trust me

[acryon]

Because hydras suck. Really suck. Remove please.

That is a very hurtful RVS.

I'm with Gliffie.

That is a very hurtful RVS.

-Cheet

Nothing personal Cheet. Although it is personal toward Johnny since he was scum in the only game I've played with him.

[acryon]

Ok what's the background story between all you people who know each other so I'm not flying blind

I don't know anyone but Ginko, who is a hydra of Cheetory/JohnnyFarrarr. In the game I played with the two, Cheetory was weirdly run up and lynched early D1, and vengekilled JohnnyFarrar who was scum. So even then, I don't actually know them since they both died before I even got a chance to look at the game. Then Cheetory replaced into a slot overnight one game where I was scum and I had already chosen to kill the slot, so he never got to play. That's our history.

[acryon]

and vengekilled JohnnyFarrar who was scum.

I managed to get on your bad side after six hours of playing together? I'm better at this than I thought.

No, but once scum always scum right??

[acryon]

@Mod: I'll be V/LA over the weekend like I normally am.

[acryon]

I'm fine with that, because then you can trust me

I don't like that this doesn't acknowledge the mafia faction and instead shows that you might be seeing the game in a werewolf/not-werewolf kinda way. Someone tell me if I'm reading too much into this post too, because it also feels like it could be just loljokes.

This is just me having never played with more than 2 factions before and not knowing how to read. All of my IRL play was Werewolf and all of it here was mafia, so I'm used to the Seer/Cop simply getting Green/Red checks and not something more complicated.

[acryon]

^Hmm... I mean, I honestly would've preferred it if you told me those were just loljokes (there's also that even cop roles have their multitude of variations, so I still somehow expected people to read what the one town PR does, but whatevs, maybe that's I'm being too strict here).

Well there was obviously a joking tone too, hence the smiley. But I will admit I didn't think about the fact that the Seer read Werewolf/Non-werewolf and not Bad/Good, which is essentially how its read in every game I have played. It was more of a "Oh Seer, I know what that does, it's a werewolf flavored cop" and didn't think about it much more than that.

[acryon]

Acryon seems like he's gotten kinda defensive. He also hasn't really done much contributing as of yet. Acryon, other than thinking my tone to be funny, what are your thoughts on the players here? Ginko and Lyserg have said stuff, why not look into them a bit?

This is quite weird to me. For one, I didn’t think I was being defensive at all, but given someone else also mentioned that, I guess I’ll accept that it looked like I was.
Why did you ask me to look specifically into Ginko and Lyserg? Other people said things, and people like Orc said quite a bit, but for some reason you mentioned those two specifically.
And then you say:

Ginko and Lyserg are alright in my books thus far.

Why do you want me to specifically look at the two people you think are fine? This isn’t normal town behavior in my experience. If you were to ask me to look into someone, normally it would make sense for it to be someone you suspected.
VOTE: Aristophanes

VOTE: UNvote: orcinus_theoriginal aside from missing a post which answered my question his post since then don't seem especially scummy. But I'm having trouble with this 3 team thing so he could still be scum but just hunting the other scum. Who knows at this point.

I would like to see more from people before really coming up with anything definite.

This post says approximately nothing. You had one vote out there for some amount of pressure presumably, and then remove it saying that he could still be scum, “who knows”, and that’s all?

I also didn't realized I was following orc's vote again until I got to this page, but whatever. Ari seems like scum.

[acryon]

@Acryon: Same questions^. The fact that you felt the need to say you hadn't realised you were "following Orc's vote" rather than just... well, not say it, also makes me interested in your read or experience with him (if any).

I said it because the first time I followed him I said I was sheeping him, and was joking. Wanted it to be clear that I was not.

Re: Orc
I'm feeling like he is town. Mostly gut combined with his play and apparent direction here matching up with what I've seen from him in other recent games.

West seems town. I'm null on Ginko. If I

had

to big a second scumspect, it would be metal, because 101 feels very off, although there's not much in general to analyze from him. I'm torn on you. I can't tell whether the nitpicking/detail questioning (not meaning this in a negative way) is trying to reconcile your own thoughts or place undeserved suspicion on players. I'm leaning toward the former, but I can't say for sure.

[acryon]

hey acryon i've played with you before

tell me that i'm not going crazy and that there is actually a clear contradiction in
1) cheetory first expresses explicit knowledge of what i mean when i said "cheet is baiting ari"
2) cheetory then says he doesn't know what i'm talking about

and that the point is actually flying right over lyserg and ari's head, as opposed to say me being batshit insane

I'm not sure that there is a clear contradiction, because I'm unsure what he meant by the "I'll come back to you on this." It's sort of weird to dodge it the first time like that, but I would need to know what the purpose of that comment was.

[acryon]

yeah but

we're all going to give cheet the space he wants to do whatever it is he wants to do

he said "i'll come back to you on this" meaning he knows what the 'this' is.

In fact, cheet says right here that he was just tired, and claims to have forgotten what i was talking about.

I was tired this morning, hungover and looking over four games of mafia. Pitch the scum-motivation in pretending that I didn't know what you were talking about when I literally asked you to point it out to me. Why would I fake that? What would the point be?

so it was a contradiction.

first he said that he'd come back to me which is an implicit acknowledgement of what i was talking about
then he said that he didn't know what i was talking about

the second statement is therefore a lie

I don't think it's as clear-cut as you are saying it is here. I

do

think the "I'll come back to you on this," seems to imply he had something to say about it beyond "I don't know what you're talking about." Because if that was the case, why wouldn't he just say it there? I think it is more him being odd than him lying, although both are worth looking at.

[acryon]

I said it because the first time I followed him I said I was sheeping him, and was joking. Wanted it to be clear that I was not.

Clear that it wasn't a joke? I mean, the tone and context is completely different from that of your RVS vote anyways, but whatevs. The person you sheeped was totes Gliffie and not Orc, but main point of what you said stays the same I suppose (and yeh, I can be fairly nitpicky at times P=, thou except for maybe my first two posts I'm not sure which of my stuff could feel super nitpicky to you... eh, if you feel like some of those are suspicious you should like, engage me more in conversation about it or something...).

Yeah, nitpicky probably wasn't the right word. That's why I added the extra note, because nitpicky is too negative a word for what I was trying to express.

[acryon]

Acryon seems like he's gotten kinda defensive. He also hasn't really done much contributing as of yet. Acryon, other than thinking my tone to be funny, what are your thoughts on the players here? Ginko and Lyserg have said stuff, why not look into them a bit?

This is quite weird to me. For one, I didn’t think I was being defensive at all, but given someone else also mentioned that, I guess I’ll accept that it looked like I was.
Why did you ask me to look specifically into Ginko and Lyserg? Other people said things, and people like Orc said quite a bit, but for some reason you mentioned those two specifically.
And then you say:

Ginko and Lyserg are alright in my books thus far.

Why do you want me to specifically look at the two people you think are fine? This isn’t normal town behavior in my experience. If you were to ask me to look into someone, normally it would make sense for it to be someone you suspected.
VOTE: Aristophanes

Why did this merit a vote?

Why wouldn't it merit a vote? Votes exist for more than to just show a desire to lynch.

[acryon]

@Ari

, how much do you remember from our hangout before New Years a little while ago?

I think Vyse asked you a question.

[acryon]

I think I'm working on a bigger post and wanted to ask that first.

-Cheetory6

Whether you intended it or not, making a seemingly fluff-post when you have standing questions makes it look like you're dodging.

[acryon]

Just trying to keep you accountable

[acryon]

Why wouldn't it merit a vote? Votes exist for more than to just show a desire to lynch.

In the same post you said that Aristophanes seemed like scum. Why're you trying to act like your vote wasn't serious now when it really seems like it was?

I also never said or acted like it wasn't serious. Sometimes I vote for people because they are scum and I want them dead. Sometimes I vote for people because I think they may be scum and I think a little pressure is good to see how they react. Both are serious, and both are based in scum-reads, although of different degrees.

And I also don't think it's out of line to assume a question about your New Years hangout with someone was not related to this game and therefore fluff.

[acryon]

Metal

- nulltown, there's just a lot of the right kind of paranoia in his last 1-2 posts that strike me as town. His connection between orci/Acryon feels deep.

Why does it feel deep? Especially considering posts like 16 and 18.

it feels like you are setting ari up for a mislynch or at least baiting him into a bad situation because i was obviously underplaying my own strength

Can I come back to you on this?

Orci: "Your questioning of Ari is opportunistic/baity."
Ginko: "I don't really agree because I'm actually kind of leaning town on Ari right now, but I can't say that I'm leaning town on Ari out loud right now because if I do then it will out a behavior check I'm trying right now. I will explain my thoughts on Ari later."

Hopefully you don't think anyone should have been able to ascertain that at this point in the game.

[acryon]

Hi farside.

One question. Are you mafia, werewolf, or town?

[acryon]

Hi farside.

One question. Are you mafia, werewolf, or town?

Hi.

Town.

Are you really expecting anything other then that for a response?

Hi to everyone else.
I'll be reading up later today.

Nope. I'm just getting you involved right off the bat.

[acryon]

A couple things strike me as off here.

Acryon – Seemed to bandwagon early with Gliffie’s anti-hydra vote on Ginko, but that could just be a reaction test (or an intense dislike of hydras). I honestly don't have much of a read on this one, even though he's posted quite a bit.

As you yourself stated, I have posted quite a bit, but the one thing you decide to look at and comment on is a joke post on the first page?

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

You went from this to voting him just because of a naked vote? Do you think naked votes are alignment-indicative?

Lyserg-Zeroz – Leaning scum. He was okay with putting Ari close to a lynch, saying in uncertain/vague terms that he didn’t like Ari’s response on an earlier post; reads being against stacking votes early in D1 as anti-town, when in reality I think it’s the opposite. Not wanting a hasty D1 vote seems more town than scum, to me. Thank you for birthday wishes

You criticize Lyserg here for putting Ari close to a lynch, and then you post several posts later with a vote putting Ari to L-1.

My strongest scumread right now is Orcinus, so I'm going to go with that even though he's nowhere near a lynch, and will change my mind if I'm convinced Ari is scum.

I just find it odd that simply a naked vote from Ari would be enough to convince you the slot is scum. And not only that, but convince you enough to put him to L-1, something you literally

just

scrutinized Lyserg for, and Lyserg's vote was only the 3rd on Ari, whereas your's is the sixth!

UNVOTE:
Because I want to avoid a quickhammer.

And also
VOTE: Lalendra

[acryon]

That's quite the wagon on Ari. How much is this Ari being Ari?

Those that know Ari seem uncertain on this, but the general sentiment seems to be leaning toward Ari acting different this game.

[acryon]

A couple things strike me as off here.

Acryon – Seemed to bandwagon early with Gliffie’s anti-hydra vote on Ginko, but that could just be a reaction test (or an intense dislike of hydras). I honestly don't have much of a read on this one, even though he's posted quite a bit.

As you yourself stated, I have posted quite a bit, but the one thing you decide to look at and comment on is a joke post on the first page?

Honestly, I was going back and forth just reading through everyone’s posts and taking notes. I wasn’t sure if the hydra vote was a joke vote or not, but either way, it wasn’t enough to really influence my read on you.

That still seems like an odd thing to comment on, when there are other things I've done that are much more worthy of comments. It just seems like textbook faux-commentary.

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

You went from this to voting him just because of a naked vote? Do you think naked votes are alignment-indicative?

Naked votes strike me as something someone does when they pretty much know that they’ve been caught, and don’t have much left to counter with.

Really? Do you have examples in games to back this up? I don't think this is the case at all, and it also seems like extreme wishful thinking to believe that we caught scum so hard this early that they are just giving up.

Lyserg-Zeroz – Leaning scum. He was okay with putting Ari close to a lynch, saying in uncertain/vague terms that he didn’t like Ari’s response on an earlier post; reads being against stacking votes early in D1 as anti-town, when in reality I think it’s the opposite. Not wanting a hasty D1 vote seems more town than scum, to me. Thank you for birthday wishes

You criticize Lyserg here for putting Ari close to a lynch, and then you post several posts later with a vote putting Ari to L-1.

His vote was a lot earlier than mine (though my read post was posted not too long before my scumvote on Ari, the posts I was basing the reads on were much earlier in the game, and the fact that he was putting Ari close to lynch on page 2, or whatever it was, is quite different than me doing it on page 7 when things have changed quite a bit.

Well, again, putting someone to L-4 isn't exactly putting them "close to lynch."

The vote just doesn't seem natural to me, and it doesn't seem to line up with your posting. I think you're discounting the complexity of the game.

Rarely is scum caught with extreme confidence, especially this early "We got em boys!" just doesn't really happen that often in my experience. Putting too much confidence in it leading up to the lynch just causes confirmation bias to drive it the rest of the way, which is terrible for town.

[acryon]

@Acryon: I remember you having a townread/feel/whatever about Orci and that you've apparently played together before, also considering your interactions with Ginko at bottom of page 6: Do you make anything out of Orci not responding to my West question, how do you read that?

Eh. We have played together before, but we also have very different playstyles. In my experience, he definitely plays a "do and say whatever I want" style, so not responding to the question doesn't strike me as necessarily scummy from him. That being said, I've never played a game where he was scum, so it's possible that's part of the way he plays it. I do think he is town though.

[acryon]

No I don't have any examples, other than my own stupid plots when I knew I was caught as scum, and just trying to fuck with people was the only recourse left. Also L-4 isn't super close to lynch, but it is closer than I'd like to be only one day into a two week day, since I have a pretty cautious play style.

You have a pretty cautious play-style, yet you put Ari to L-1 with over a week left? I think there is

far

more gravity in the L-1 with over a week left than the L-4 with almost 2 weeks. Plus, we were still mostly in RVS, so the likelihood of the other 2 votes being sticky was very low.

[acryon]

so im interviewing a congressman today and have a bunch of other shit i gotta get through so this is not happening

1) i didn't give my read on west while i was posting about other stuff because i don't have a read on west, a read on a player who has not stood out to me would require a bunch of meta (and people here can attest to how meta-heavy i can get)
2) i'm not the biggest fan of ari, but something about the wagon felt off and i didn't want to leave him at l-1. i think it's the fact that everyone seemed to jump on him and other lines of interest (cheet, me, etc) didn't seem to be genuinely pursued.
3) i have no clue what a lot of peopel here are saying. Lal's posts don't make sense to me and I hope that I don't have to explain why.

Also, asking for background on people who know each other IRL seemed odd to me, knowing everyone’s meta isn’t really that helpful when people can just lie about other people’s meta and their history in games together.

you are suggesting to me that when i post "hey tell me about your meta" to 8-odd people that they will all lie to me? wouldn't we just lynch the people who are lying? what?

Why no Lal vote here?

[acryon]

man offsite meta is so

weird

I just generally hate meta, because I know at least for myself, that even my townplay differs based on the game and the town I'm working with.

[acryon]

sure. VOTE: lal

I mean you don't need to feel pressured into voting there, but it was just something I expected following that post.

[acryon]

honestly you saying I'm scum just based on my ari vote, with almost no reasoning to back it up, makes me feel a possible ari/farside scumteam. Or possibly werewolves, since as it was pointed out earlier there's only two of those.

I've said more then that and I'm voting ari for an actual reason.

Your reason was naked vote bs.

You meta read on ari was vague. Show how you explained the meta as you stating it was town or scum meta.
Explain mislynch then a vote on ari with one post
Explain why multiple people who know meta about each other would have anyone lie.

You know why you can't.
Because it makes no sense
Nice omgus comment.
From town to scum based on Jack fucking shit

How much of Lalendra's play do you think could be contributed to what seems to be relative unfamiliarity with at least online mafia?

[acryon]

I thought they came from another site that plays mafia. I recall one said something about lal always killing them.

Yeah, but not knowing OMGUS and other cues makes me think Lal is still pretty newish. Now, personally I think that parts can be attributed to that, but I still think she's scum.

Knowing she has only played one game on their site, do your feelings change?

[acryon]

Metal: I have one vote and think both ari and lal are scum.
I don't believe they are on the same team.

I also believe this.

@Lyserg: I get where you're going with some of the points and digging you're doing, but I would caution that you seem to be putting too much emphasis on possible scum-slips. They don't actually happen that often, and I think it's going to worsen your scum-hunting effectiveness if you are focusing on the possibility of it so much. Behavioral scumminess is a far better thing to look for than slipping.

[acryon]

I'll admit it, I'm kind of a low-content poster compared to a lot of you guys. You can check the other games I'm in and hopefully you'll see my lack of posting is not alignment indicative.

Anyways, I don't have a problem with farside and lal having votes on any specific person. They look like they're actively trying to figure out the game.

When you say things like "gut feeling" and throw out a vote, it feels like you're doing the opposite.

Hopefully I'm not being too harsh, but be more helpful to town then. You've posted essentially 3 times in 11 pages.

Your couple posts that do have content seem like they would be good for town in greater quantities, so if you want us to win you should share more

@Metal: Do you think I am going for the low-hanging fruit in going after Lal? Also, this struck me as odd:

Quick note: Just to address Lal, myself or others being biased towards friends it won't happen. In a competitive game Lal would sell me out for a nickle just to "beat" me, as for everyone else I've seen them go after each other for the smallest of things. I forget who brought it up but please don't worry about that. So onto

Lalendra: Scum, the scummiest of scum, so scummy the scrubbing bubbles can't get rid of her. Okay but seriously, she is playing a very noob or very elaborate game (damn English major). I've read her posts several times am having trouble following her train of thought. She oddly defends me from Ari by voting for Ari. Justifies the vote more by pointing to West's reasons. Lal, has anything changed for you since Ari has answered your question? Who is your next scum read. My read on lal is noob town atm

So you think that Lal would sell you out to beat you, implying you know something of her games, but then you call her noob town? This doesn't seem to line up to me. If she is a newbie, then how would you know she would sell you out just to beat you?

[acryon]

@Mod: V/LA over the weekend as normal.

[acryon]

Acryon

:
i) Do you consider yourself to be a player who has slow starts in general?

It completely depends. How easy people are to read, how active the thread is, how available I am to post, etc.

ii) I'm pretty shrug with most of his play up until his 22nd post at which point he starts to focus really hard on Lalendra. This feels kinda inconsistent with his play prior in this game. He becomes very focused on asking Lalendra questions and making points as to why she's scummy, whereas he was kind of more disinterested in pushing for Aristophanes or asking him questions. I feel like there's a very distinct difference in playstyle being taken here and it doesn't even make much sense from a perspective of "I think that Aristophanes is less scummy than Lalendra", because his reasoning when he unvotes is that he wants to avoid a quickhammer.
Kind of gives me the impression that Ari or Lalendra might be a scummate of his [more likely Lalendra just from some other interactions] or that he might have been forcing his scumread on Aristophanes and felt uncomfortable pushing it.

I know this isn't a question to me, but I feel like I should comment on it anyway. To make it perfectly clear, I think one of Ari and Lal is scum and the other is a werewolf. Ari already had plenty of traction, so it makes way more sense for me to try and work out this Lal read, especially since we were only about halfway through the day when Ari got up to L-1. The questioning and pressure on Lal would kind of lose its power if we just let the Ari lynch go through immediately and I tried to push Lal tomorrow. Nevermind the fact that I could die and would have no chance to.

iv)

Knowing she has only played one game on their site, do your feelings change?

Why is this a valuable question for you to be asking farside given your scumread on Lal? Run me through the thought process here.

I thought this was very clear. Her lack of experience obviously made me question my scum-read on her slightly, so I asked farside (someone who I think is town) what it did to her read of Lal.
Getting a second opinion from someone who I think is very likely town helps me sort of my read. This seems like pretty standard play, so it's odd to me that this strikes you as off.

Acryon posts quite a lot, but unlike the other townie posters, his posts don't feel like they're actively hunting for scum. They feel more like "I'll comment on this here", "I'll respond here".
@orcinus/acryon/metalcyanide would you mind posting your town/scum lists?

This is a little weird because I feel like I was the primary person pushing and outing Lal.

Here is the lsit from Town to scum:

Farside
Orc
YYR
Prawn
Ginko
Metal
West
Vyse
Lyserg
Ari
Lal

Farside and Orc are both quite a bit stronger town-reads than the rest, and Ari and Lal are both quite a bit stronger scum-reads than the rest.

Someone asked what I thought of metal. I'm pretty torn on him. I think there is a pretty close to equal chance that he is scum vs town saying some silly things, although if I had to pick I would say town.

[acryon]

--I'll analyze the Lalandra case & wagon in the morning. I'm literally falling asleep at my computer right now.

Can we get a follow up here?

Also interested to see what Ginko makes of it. It's shocking to me that people haven't commented on it directly, as it's pretty hot.

[acryon]

Also interested to see what Ginko makes of it. It's shocking to me that people haven't commented on it directly, as it's pretty hot.

It's a rather dense case. I think I have somewhere around like an entire page of point form notes that I need to sift through for it? q.q

Right, which is why it's even more curious that people would avoid it.

@Acryon

, weh. Young and prawn are your #3 and #4 slots for town? Why? Young's only made a naked vote and then disappeared and you literally just said this about prawn:

This is a little weird because I feel like I was the primary person pushing and outing Lal.

If he's weird, why is he so far up your list?
'Splain that shit pls.

I already indicated that there was a large gap between 1 and 2 and the rest. Prawn just doesn't feel scummy to me. Same with YYR. What little they've brought forth doesn't ping me. Just because someone reads something wrong, it doesn't mean they're scum. I still think it's weird, but that doesn't mean I think he is scum.

Also, I just don't like the difference in pushing for Lal/Ari while voting for them and not because of you switching or anything like that. Your questioning/push of Aristophanes was weak, while your push/questioning for Lal is much stronger.

I've said this already, but my play is different based on the circumstance. Ari had multiple other people pushing, so I didn't need to necessarily add my noise, because others were saying it already. Lal needed someone to push her on her stuff, so I stepped in and did that.

I thought this was very clear. Her lack of experience obviously made me question my scum-read on her slightly, so I asked farside (someone who I think is town) what it did to her read of Lal.
Getting a second opinion from someone who I think is very likely town helps me sort of my read. This seems like pretty standard play, so it's odd to me that this strikes you as off.

I think your question stood out to me because it looked like you were trying to softpush farside into thinking Lal is town, which just seemed really strange. Makes a little more sense now with your townread on farside.

Oh, not at all. I think Lal is almost definitely scum. Hence why my vote hasn't moved.

[acryon]

Also, why's Lyserg so low?

-Cheetory6

Because he's continuing to try to catch people on scum-slips. So either he is playing a bad town-game, or he is scum trying to catch people using cheap tactics. I'm not sure of which yet, but he certainly doesn't get town-points from me for the moment. To be clear, Ari and Lal are the only people I have reasonable confidence in being scum. The others, Lyserg included, are simply people who I could very plausibly see as being scum.

[acryon]

Hey YYR, where are you?!

[acryon]

Acryon, would you say that you make an effort to talk in a non-offensive manner?

Yes. I tend to play something of a devil's advocate role as town, and with that tends to come a (probably too) peaceable approach.

Also, someone has brought it up already, but I severely question my placement on that readlist, and likewise, is Lyserg's looking for scumslips the only reason you have him so low? Nothing in your ISO would suggest to me that Lyserg would be so low. I don't know if I find the list odd because it's so radically different from my own reads or if the list just seems thrown together at random.

It's funny that you mention it being thrown together at random, because I've had it put together for a couple days on a spreadsheet (obviously you have no way to know whether this is true or not, but I just thought it was funny that you would say that). My list is ranked in terms of

likelihood

of being scum at this point. Why would I think someone with almost no content is scummier than someone that could be trying to point out faux-scum-slips? I don't see that high of likelihood of you being scum right now. That may change when you post more. And it's not even that I think Lyserg is scum at the moment. I just think their is a greater likelihood of him flipping scum than the others above him on the list.

[acryon]

I don't particularly care for 4 dudes on Lalendra: acryon, Aristophanes, orcinus_theoriginal, YRR
I don't particularly care for 2 dudes on Arisophanes: Metalcyanide, Lalendra

I'd be pretty happy with lynching one of acryon, Aristophanes, orcinus_theoriginal, YRR

So you don't care for 6 different people, fully

half

of the players, and you would be happy lynching one of 4 people, fully one third of the players. Why don't you make a stance and pick 2 that you feel are the worst, because saying you would be ok lynching a third of the player base means absolutely nothing.

[acryon]

Acryon is scum who doesn't understand how someone can distrust 6 people because he's only hunting for a selection of the scum in this game.
Lalendra case is full of a lot of 'Lalendra is being weird' points and her doing things that people don't understand.
Someone make striking points that I can relate to on Lalendra or you should get on board this sexier wagon.

-Cheetory

Distrusting 6 people is one thing, but saying you would be ok lynching any of 4 people is a completely different thing. There is a world of difference between general suspicion and willingness to lynch.

[acryon]

There is a great scum-incentive to put out a large group of people you distrust, because it makes setting up future mislynches a lot easier. And they don't have any real skin in the game, because someone pushing one person that flips town looks a lot worse than someone pushing one of their four possibles that flips town.

I don't necessarily think he's scum, but putting out a list like that means nothing.

[acryon]

Acryon is scum who doesn't understand how someone can distrust 6 people because he's only hunting for a selection of the scum in this game.
Lalendra case is full of a lot of 'Lalendra is being weird' points and her doing things that people don't understand.
Someone make striking points that I can relate to on Lalendra or you should get on board this sexier wagon.

-Cheetory

I can get behind this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Acryon

Don't care to address my points?

[acryon]

I'm fine with lynching people I don't read as town. As for my top 2 scum, it'd be you and metal.

But do you understand how listing off 4 people you would be ok to lynch is bad? It 1) absolves you from blame, because you have less skin in the game than a person doing a push with only one scum read, and 2) allows you to be manipulated by scum a lot easier, because they can just lead you to killing whichever of the four is most beneficial to them.

[acryon]

Oh, not at all. I think Lal is almost definitely scum. Hence why my vote hasn't moved.

Why? I'm not seeing it.

I pointed out a couple posts in my thoughts on you. Could you elaborate on your thoughts process here? (173, 207, 214)

Why is this scummy, and not just Newbish mistakes?

I mean my thought process seems like it was pretty straight-forward, no? These aren't newbie mistakes; they are pretty blatant contradictions. One of her primary criticisms of Lyserg was that he put Ari close to a lynch (he didn't), and she put Ari to L-1. So the reasons for suspecting people are BS, which also makes sense why she chose to comment on my joke post but nothing else. The move to voting Ari was unnatural.

Acryon is scum who doesn't understand how someone can distrust 6 people because he's only hunting for a selection of the scum in this game.
Lalendra case is full of a lot of 'Lalendra is being weird' points and her doing things that people don't understand.
Someone make striking points that I can relate to on Lalendra or you should get on board this sexier wagon.

-Cheetory

I think it's more likely that he's just pushing on a perceived weakness. Otherwise, I'm in agreement.

I also like points iii) & iv) in 297.

How is it exactly that I'm playing purely reactionary again? Given I was the person who first started the push on Lal. And iv is also terrible and I've explained why. You can try to find reasons to call me scum, but these aren't even close to being legitimate.

Basically, Acryon feels like a relatively level-headed Scum player who's more focused on getting a lynch than sorting through the game.

I mean we have one day left and no lynching is pretty bad. And certainly getting lynches is a big part of sorting the game out. You lynch the people you think are scum/wolves and rinse and repeat until you win.

Btw @Acryon: Why are Vyse and West also that low? I would've expected Metal to be like in third position based on your earlier comments of him when I asked about your other scumsuspects and that your ISO gives me no indication of you feeling better about him since then, nor of him being townier than West, who you said seemed town that time.

I certainly haven't been verbalizing every bit of internal dialogue concerning every player, so when I make a list of every player and how I feel about them, it shouldn't be a shock that you may not find something in my ISO to explain that. 276 from Metal read town to me, hence why I didn't have a follow up to him after my first question. Some of the comments from Vyse in posts like 288 felt like genuine scum-hunting to me, even if they involved me. Town are allowed to be wrong

[acryon]

Distrusting 6 people is one thing

So you don't care for 6 different people, fully half of the players

Point isn't that you were trying to push a scumread on him or anything, but that the way you approached responding to him on this felt exasperated as though he was being ridiculous for not caring for that many people. Mindset there reads hard as someone who's hunting for an ordinary number of scum.

I do think it's ridiculous to call out 6 players as being people you don't trust. It just doesn't mean anything when you say you distrust half the player base. It's not useful to town at all and it makes it look like you don't want to take a real stance. Obviously you may think internally that any of 6 people may be scum, but the point is that stating it to the town is completely useless for town, and the only person it is good for would be the person saying it if they are scum.

One of her primary criticisms of Lyserg was that he put Ari close to a lynch (he didn't), and she put Ari to L-1. So the reasons for suspecting people are BS, which also makes sense why she chose to comment on my joke post but nothing else. The move to voting Ari was unnatural.

i) The hypocritical point strikes me more as bad play than anything.
ii) How is her vote for Ari unnatural?
She says this like two posts before her vote in her ISO:

My strongest scumread right now is Orcinus, so I'm going to go with that even though he's nowhere near a lynch, and will change my mind if I'm convinced Ari is scum.

-Cheet

I already laid out my reasoning, but I'll do it again to hopefully get you off of this silliness. She went from that post that you quoted, which I also pointed out, to voting Ari just because of a naked vote. It just seems very off to go from "Player X is my strongest scum-read, but might change my mind if I'm convinced Y is scum." Then Y naked votes, and that convinces you? How is that not unnatural? Naked votes are probably a null, and even if you were to say they were generally scummy, they certainly aren't even close to a tipping point from null-scum to scum.

[acryon]

Do you think that everyone thinks that naked votes are null? Also, she doesn't just say it's the naked vote, as she also points to finding West's points more convincing after reading them again.

No, which is why I noted it as such that some would say it's scummy, but even then it still just isn't the tipping point; I don't think anyone things it's scummy enough to be that. To me, it felt more like she saw farside's post saying she felt Lal was scummy, and this caused Lal to quickly move forward with the Ari wagon rather than screw around with another direction. Which would also explain the contradiction in her play here vs what she chastised Lyserg for.

I do think it's ridiculous to call out 6 players as being people you don't trust. It just doesn't mean anything when you say you distrust half the player base. It's not useful to town at all and it makes it look like you don't want to take a real stance. Obviously you may think internally that any of 6 people may be scum, but the point is that stating it to the town is completely useless for town, and the only person it is good for would be the person saying it if they are scum.

I hate that I somewhat like this response.
Zzzzzz.

-Cheetory6

let's be friends

[acryon]

@Acryon: I sorta thought you'd see my confusion and help me understand your "scumslips" read on me that I don't get at all :C, so Imma just ask now: What do you mean with that, yo? And...

Posts like 40 and 256 have examples of this, but it's a general focus on questioning people's

wording

rather than their intentions.

Some of the comments from Vyse in posts like 288 felt like genuine scum-hunting to me, even if they involved me

you just gave reasoning for a townVyse 0.0(?), but wasn't he on the scum side of your readslist?

That was me misreading the question from Ginko. I misread it as why Vyse was that low on the scum-list as in less scummy, so I gave reasons why he was less likely to be scum than the others.

Also, yep, talk about West's placement too. Your initial townlean on him didn't seem strong (124) but that he is below people like Prawn or YYR (whose placement on the readslist seems to be just because nothings seems scummy to you of what little they've posted) still caught my attention.

West's position on the list has to do with an admittedly premature associative tell. In determining my list, I put together what I thought were likely scum and werewolf teams. At the time, I thought West seemed like he could be on a team with Lalendra. But keep in mind this is a very weak read. Every person needed to be placed, but it doesn't mean their positions on the list are staggered equally, as I indicated in my initial post.

On another note, the apparent hypocrisy of Lal's suspicion on me isn't what bothered me there: (still @Acryon) Don't you think the context of those votes were different enough that the "contradiction" isn't as brash as you are making it out to be?

No, the context wasn't different enough. As I said in 208, if your point is that it was too early to put someone close to lynch when someone puts another to L-4 with less than 2 weeks left, then putting someone to L-1 with still a week left is definitely bad. In short, the difference in time is not enough to outweigh the difference in number of votes on the wagon.

[acryon]

Acryon is passing decent in a few individual post, but by and large, I'm noting his scumhunting consists of taking an accusatory tone towards glaring mistakes, rather than building off a natural thought process. Even accounting for the possibility that I'm just missing said thought process, I'm not seeing much in the way of him sorting Lal out, either. (Or Ari, actually.) It feels like he's looking for an opening, rather than sorting out Town/Scum.

I guess I just don't get this. I was also the first person to mention Lal's behavior potentially being related to unfamiliarity with online mafia.

On a side note, why were you worried about a quickhammer?

I have played in a number of games recently where someone quickhammered, so it's something I'm a little more careful about now. Especially with someone that has so much momentum already.

it doesn't seem like an inherently scummy one to me. At the moment, it feels more like her thought process is disorganized and slightly reactionary.

Not sure what else to say to you on this. I think disorganized and slightly reactionary could be ways to describe pieces of her play, but not the part where she voted Ari to L-1 after criticizing someone else for putting Ari to L-4. I think that Ari and Lal are, by far, the scummiest players right now. At the moment, I feel like it's more likely Lal flips scum of the two.

[acryon]

ii) There's a huge difference between forgetting that you're scumreading someone to the point where you give townpoints to them and putting someone in null instead of town in your readlist. Plus, this other point about changing reads is lammeeeeeee. Acryon's read didn't change. He forgot it. Yeah, prawn's reads changed, but there's a huge difference between completely forgetting your read on someone and having it change and not explain why. Acryon is super fucking invested in comparison to both of the examples you're pushing here and there's also the fact that he went out of his way to give townreasons for Vyse and then said nothing about West.

-Cheetory6

If you believe this is true, what am I gaining by misreading and answering the question on Vyse and dodging the question on West?

[acryon]

I'm not really sure I understand your point.
I don't think you intentionally flipped your read on Vyse or ignored West?
The former point reads as scum poorly keeping track of their reads and the latter just reads as weird. Do you want me to insert speculation into why I think the latter could be coming from scumPOV? Because I have thoughts, they're just really paranoid and just stopping at weird makes me sound less like I'm crazy than when I elaborate on my entire thoughts on every action people have q.q

I mean this is sort of what I'm asking. Do you really think it's more likely the former than the latter?

No, which is why I noted it as such that some would say it's scummy, but even then it still just isn't the tipping point; I don't think anyone things it's scummy enough to be that. To me, it felt more like she saw farside's post saying she felt Lal was scummy, and this caused Lal to quickly move forward with the Ari wagon rather than screw around with another direction. Which would also explain the contradiction in her play here vs what she chastised Lyserg for.

I was reading back and thought for a second that I'd found something super scummy in this interaction involving timestamps but I feel like I just got caught up in nothing.

I voted for Ari in vote 171 and didn’t address farside’s points until 172. Those were two separate posts because I was on my phone, catching up on a lot and posting as I read, not easy to do multiquotes and such that way. Chronologically my vote for Ari came before I even read farside's post.

^Does the following explanation not seem plausible to you? She does respond to farside in a second post. [initially had thought that the timing between 171 and 172 was too close for her to have not read farside's post and then make a response, but it feels super subjective after thinking about it so meh]

-Cheet

Of course it seems plausible or I don't think she wouldn't have said it, but I don't believe that it's true.

[acryon]

Of course it seems plausible or I don't think she wouldn't have said it, but I don't believe that it's true.

Okay.. so is there a better point I should be following on the Lalendra wagon? Or can you give me something that should convince me that it's not true?

I think my scenario is more likely. It's weird to me that you

would

just take it at face value.

I mean this is sort of what I'm asking. Do you really think it's more likely the former than the latter?

I was saying that I believe the flipflop on the read seems like a scum-mistake moreso than a town-mistake and that the lack of mention of West was moreso weird than blatantly scummy and I don't really understand.
Trying to piece together you and West as a scumteam didn't really make much sense to me because I didn't think West would just outright dismiss my case on you if you're scummates and the other thought of you and Vyse being scum also didn't really make much sense given how you guys are interacting.
For the flipflop it just makes more sense to me that someone who's scum and has a few real scumreads/a few exaggerated scumreads would be more likely to forget who their lesser scumreads are because they're forced.

I think town make mistakes and confuse things far more often than scum. I thought that was a pretty accepted though, which is why hunting for scum-slips is so bad.

[acryon]

Of course it seems plausible or I don't think she wouldn't have said it, but I don't believe that it's true.

Okay.. so is there a better point I should be following on the Lalendra wagon? Or can you give me something that should convince me that it's not true?

I mean this is sort of what I'm asking. Do you really think it's more likely the former than the latter?

I was saying that I believe the flipflop on the read seems like a scum-mistake moreso than a town-mistake and that the lack of mention of West was moreso weird than blatantly scummy and I don't really understand.
Trying to piece together you and West as a scumteam didn't really make much sense to me because I didn't think West would just outright dismiss my case on you if you're scummates and the other thought of you and Vyse being scum also didn't really make much sense given how you guys are interacting.
For the flipflop it just makes more sense to me that someone who's scum and has a few real scumreads/a few exaggerated scumreads would be more likely to forget who their lesser scumreads are because they're forced.

As much as I hate meta, if you are really concerned about it, maybe it will make you feel better to look at the Nightless Vengeful Mayhem game in my wiki where I did something very similar which looked like flip-flopping, and scum succeeded in getting me lynched for it. "Slips" and mistakes are far more useful for scum as a method of convincing sheep than they are for town in actual scum-hunting. Obviously this is self-serving, but I've stated this in other games as well.

[acryon]

I think my scenario is more likely. It's weird to me that you would just take it at face value.

I'm not taking it at face value. Like, it's more likely to be scum-motivated than town-motivated, I'll give you that, but I'm just not seeing the hardcore lynchlust people are having for Lalendra, because the case on her reads as a bunch of little points adding up to an okay case.

For me the lynchlust is just wanted to lynch someone I think is scum, which is Lal or Ari. I don't know that I would describe that as lynchlust, but someone needs to get lynched.

I think town make mistakes and confuse things far more often than scum. I thought that was a pretty accepted though, which is why hunting for scum-slips is so bad.

It's less that it's a mistake and more that it's the second time you've done something that strikes me as forcing a scumread on someone. I would have been much more inclined to believe your read on Vyse had just changed from Point A to Point B, but it strikes me as super off that you just say that you more or less just forgot that he was leaning scum. Like, it just reads to me like you don't want people to think that the read itself was fake, but that you were earnestly reading Vyse's interactions as being town. Given that acryon wagon is becoming less likely of a thing I'll make it homework to read game you linked.

I never said I forgot he was leaning scum. He was near the middle of the pack on my list, which is of course going to be a bit more nebulous than those on the outer ends, and then I answered the question the way I did because I misread it. I did screw up in misreading it, but I didn't screw up in forgetting what I thought about him in general. Maybe it will make more sense if we remove the details like this. I say "X is a 2 on the scum scale and Y is a 4 on the scum scale, 10 being the highest." You say "Why is X lower than Y" and I give the answer I do, for why Y might be less likely to be scum than Y. A 2 on the scum scale is higher than a 1 on the scum scale, but neither are anywhere near a 10.

For the record, I get why you're on this, but you shouldn't be.

[acryon]

I never said I forgot he was leaning scum. He was near the middle of the pack on my list, which is of course going to be a bit more nebulous than those on the outer ends, and then I answered the question the way I did because I misread it. I did screw up in misreading it, but I didn't screw up in forgetting what I thought about him in general. Maybe it will make more sense if we remove the details like this. I say "X is a 2 on the scum scale and Y is a 4 on the scum scale, 10 being the highest." You say "Why is X lower than Y" and I give the answer I do, for why Y might be less likely to be scum than Y. A 2 on the scum scale is higher than a 1 on the scum scale, but neither are anywhere near a 10.

I'm saying that it seems like you forgot because you didn't prod back at Lyserg being like "why are you asking me for reasons I'm townreading someone I'm leaning scum on?"

I didn't read it as "why are you townreading this person you are scumreading?" I read it as "why are you scumreading this person less than these other people?"

[acryon]

End of D1 is 3:00 EST, right?

Looks like it's in 7 hours, so about 8:30 EST.

[acryon]

Actually a bit after 9 EST

[acryon]

I'm not sure what time zone Honey Bee is posting from though.

It's a countdown.

[acryon]

And you should have waited for a claim prawn :\

[acryon]

That was a town hammer in my view.
Too close for deadline.
Also there is from what I see one pr in the game. The odds of that happening in a game like this is 1 out of 12.

Acyron: we're you concerned for some reason?

I mean the odds are pretty much always greater than 0, which is enough of a reason to always ask for a claim first. And we had 7 hours, which doesn't seem like too close, especially given Ginko gave intent to hammer. For what it's worth, I also think it was a town hammer; I just think we should have waited for a claim.

[acryon]

Going to catch up in another thread and then I'll be back to post here, but I'll get this out of the way at least.

VOTE: Aristophanes

[acryon]

Still think ari is opposite alignment of lal. I noted metal was being nice to lal and his thought process was that she'd attack him as scum which is pretty weak tell.

I will note that metal in 20 and 31 stated that he knew Lal IRL and they have been friends a long time, so I personally wouldn't put much stock in some of their buddying/interactions, because it read to me like a friend helping another friend on a new site.

Also, vote is on Ari because the slot is definitely mafia.

[acryon]

People are saying I am definitely opposite of Lal. Why does this make me a scum team member and not a town member?

I decided you were scum before I decided you were a different faction than Lal.

That Acryon somehow understood my question backwards reads disingenuous to me when considering he answered Ginko and Young's "Why is Lyserg that low" questions in a way that fits with the "low = scummier" thing .... and he never actually told me why Vyse was sorta scummy to him. The idea that he just forgot his Vyse read because it was made up is nice at first, but I'd think scum wouldn't be so careless about that sort of thing.

*sigh* I thought we talked about this. Start finding scum based on their intentions and their actions, not on what you perceive to be slip-ups. Looking for slip-ups is a bad way to find scum, because scum tend to be a lot

more

careful than town.

@Acryon: Give me your updated thoughts on West please.

304 and 335 specifically ping.

These parts in 335 confuses me the most:

So basically Ari's wagon still sucks

Why does the Ari wagon suck?

I don't like that both Metal and Lalendra are on it.

The big thing that I don't like about the Lal wagon is that Ari is on it, but I can look past that. Just felt like my last post would've been a weird and not-ideal time to put her at L-1. I'm not opposed to a Lalendra lynch (though I think I'd still prefer an Ari one) so I'll throw a vote down in a day or so.

So his biggest gripe with the Ari wagon is two different people. His biggest gripe with the Lal wagon is one person, but he can look past it. But then ultimately he would prefer the lynch on Ari? I get that not liking people on a wagon isn't the same as liking or disliking a wagon in general, but it still seems like an odd progression to me, especially with all he said in 304 about it sucking.

If I had to guess, I would say he is the other wolf, but I'm much more confident in Ari as scum.

[acryon]

@Prawn - Quick question, are you an alt?

Nope.

I'm going to read over the game and get back to you guys with some thoughts.

What do you have for us prawn?

[acryon]

I'd address Acryon's points against me, but I'm pretty sure he just copypasted what Young said about me, and I was waiting for Ginko to comment on that.

It didn't strike me as off when he said it because we didn't have an Ari or Lal flip at the time. Now with Lal's flip, it makes things a little more worth looking at.

Acryon: what did you make of west/lal interaction during day 1?

Nothing in particularly necessarily strongly pinged, but I did have in my notes that West was the most likely partner to Lal if Lal was wolf/scum.

[acryon]

It didn't strike me as off when he said it because we didn't have an Ari or Lal flip at the time.

Hmm... what were your reasons to suspect West and Lal were scumbuddies before (when you talked about West's placement on your readslist)?

I can't say for sure what I was thinking then, because it's just what I wrote down in my spreadsheet at the time for who Lal's likely buddy(s) were, and it wasn't based on anything

particularly

in-depth; I just needed a spot for everyone. I imagine it had something to do with her leaving West off of her initial readslist, as well as her followup in 190, combined with the aforementioned West comments.

Just curious, who all's played with TTH before?

I've played with TTH and I know that she can be capable of some really good analysis.

   Also, can you give me a summary of your case on Ari? I remember your vote post having the fishing for reactions tint to it and it being not that grand for the confidence you are showing for it, can't remember you being explicit about more of your reasons to suspect him.

I thought 53 was very off, so I voted to apply some pressure and see what we got out of Ari. Ari was voting Metal, but then, after I voted and West expressed some suspicion, Ari quickly jumped aboard the Lal wagon to steer away from himself. The rest of his posts that weren't answering direct questions were pretty active lurky. Post 53 pinged me as scum, and nothing after that convinced me that it wasn't from scum.

[acryon]

Let's look at this from a different pov for a moment. I don't see ari and lal as scum together. I don't see anyone who has. Metal as I said doesn't look like scum with lal. If metal is mafia what does ari gain from pushing metal scum?

Well he would gain the bus that some may believe since there is a very real chance Ari gets lynched today. But I don't think metal is scum or wolf FWIW.

[acryon]

Let's look at this from a different pov for a moment. I don't see ari and lal as scum together. I don't see anyone who has. Metal as I said doesn't look like scum with lal. If metal is mafia what does ari gain from pushing metal scum?

Well he would gain the bus that some may believe since there is a very real chance Ari gets lynched today. But I don't think metal is scum or wolf FWIW.

Why is metal a town read?

It's more that his posts say he isn't scum than they say he is town. Since we nailed a wolf and I'm quite certain we have a scum pegged, I'm working off of natural chemistry and associative tells between players more than I normally would. Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine, and I see no scummy agenda in his posting.

[acryon]

feeling a bit paranoid about acryon with people still scum reading him. I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I found it a dishonest response from acryon not to note those points about lal and west when I asked him.

Is this a comment to me?

[acryon]

@Acryon:

I can't say for sure what I was thinking then, because it's just what I wrote down in my spreadsheet at the time for who Lal's likely buddy(s) were, and it wasn't based on anything particularly in-depth; I just needed a spot for everyone. I imagine it had something to do with her leaving West off of her initial readslist, as well as her followup in 190, combined with the aforementioned West comments.

I was wondering why you hadn't brought up (umpormpted) your original thoughts on the West/Lal interaction again, considering the flip and all, and with this I suppose I get that you didn't because of the nebulous/shallow nature of your original read of their interactions... but on the other hand, I mean I appreciate the effort of having a spreadsheet and all, but comments like this make me think you were more interested in fabricating or having a readslist than in the reasoning and points behind the readslist itself .-.

There's a reason everyone isn't constantly updating the thread with their full reads list (regardless of maturity). It doesn't make sense and it would just muck up the thread. I didn't bring up West because I am waaaay more confident in Ari-scum than I am in West-wolf. I'd rather focus on lynching the person I am far more confident about.

I thought 53 was very off, so I voted to apply some pressure and see what we got out of Ari. Ari was voting Metal, but then, after I voted and West expressed some suspicion, Ari quickly jumped aboard the Lal wagon to steer away from himself. The rest of his posts that weren't answering direct questions were pretty active lurky. Post 53 pinged me as scum, and nothing after that convinced me that it wasn't from scum.

Hmm... I don't really have such strong feelings for 53 and his questions about me and Ginko. I could see that as a genuine attempts to start convo and his answer in 199 sort of says that too. I see what you are saying with the jump on Lal, but: The Metal vote does look like reaction test anyways (scum or town intentions, idk, but reaction test nontheless), don't you think it's natural that he would then act on the conclusions he got off it? Or do you think the scumminess of the fact outweights the possible town intentions of it or something like that?

Considering Metal didn't even get a chance to post between the time Ari voted him and switched to Lal, I would say that it was

not

a reaction test, since there was literally no reaction from it before Ari switched off of it.

As for the active lurking: ... Oh, there's actually a lot of quickposting to apologize for lack of time. Did you mean that?

Yes.

[acryon]

@Acryon:

There's a reason everyone isn't constantly updating the thread with their full reads list (regardless of maturity). It doesn't make sense and it would just muck up the thread. I didn't bring up West because I am waaaay more confident in Ari-scum than I am in West-wolf. I'd rather focus on lynching the person I am far more confident about.

I doubt the honesty of the first sentence when it is trying to cover for my comment on a specific situation by turning to the general case; when on D1 you go "I think these two might be scumpartners" and then we get one of those two to flip scum, I expect a follow up of some sort or at least I think it's fairly clear that the situation is not analogous to your hyperbole of "everyone consatnly updating the thread with full reads list". I understand the second point, but need time to think about that and in how conceding it is essentially giving you a pass to tunnel.

Perhaps I was being a little hyperbolic, but I think my point stands. No one is a completely open book, and everyone has thoughts in their head that will come out when they decide it's the right time. It's no different for me.

Considering Metal didn't even get a chance to post between the time Ari voted him and switched to Lal, I would say that it was not a reaction test, since there was literally no reaction from it before Ari switched off of it.

Why are you acting as if reaction test votes could only be aimed at the person who got voted? How was Lal's switch to Ari not a reaction?

Lal's switch to Ari was a reaction, but I think, if anything, he was looking for an opportunity as scum. And he may have thought it was likely someone would bite on his naked vote. The problem is, if he is town, he should expect people to jump on him for that, so I don't buy it as a reaction test from town in that way.

Yes.

... is this really an integral part of what gives you confidence on the Ari case?

[/quote]
No.

[acryon]

UNVOTE: Aristophanes

I was hoping more people would jump on Aristophanes.

Aristophanes is a bad lynch. Aristophanes is lowhanging fruit and an easy vote-park. We should stop talking about him and we should instead be looking at anyone currently on his wagon.

Based on how many votes were on him, it's impossible for mafia to be with him unless they were bussing D1. Lalendra the werewolf also voted him D1. He's confirmed town for me.

...What? So it's impossible unless mafia were bussing D1 (because that's unlikely ). There were 6 different people on him day 1, and you are listing him as confirmed town to you because you don't think scum would bus D1? This is actually insane.

9 voters have been on him at various points in the day (Ginko, acryon, orcinus_theoriginal, West9, VysePresident, Metalcyanide, farside22, Lalendra, metalcyanide) and he's always been in danger of being lynched.

Right now metal and acryon are on him. They are good lynches.

This is not how logic works.

Acryon who is part of your scum group?

[acryon]

My question was worded terrible.

I should be asking this better.

Acryon: who do you see as scum together and why?

Oh haha that makes more sense. I was wondering what you were expecting there.

For the scum-team, I see Ari, Lyserg, and Vyse.

[acryon]

"Why?

Same with the West issue before, I have far more reasons for why I think Ari is scum than for why I think Lyserg and Vyse are his partners.

Lyserg: I've already commented on his playstyle and version of scumhunting, which tends to be just trying to catch people in their words, which I think is more likely to be a method shown by scum than town, especially given town's higher chance of actually making wording mistakes.

The original vote on Ari and subsequent edit and commentary in that post just don't sound very genuine to me. I don't think his reasons for not voting Ari are near strong enough to outweigh the reasons for voting him.

Vyse: I actually didn't even realize a good chunk of his content has been about me until I went into his ISO, but it doesn't really look like he is scumhunting. He also started off the game with an Ari vote and then backed off for reasons I'm not sure were made clear. Like, what does this post mean, actually?

I'm still not thrilled with Ari. His early posts bugged me because he seemed to be more inclined to banter than engage, and more importantly, when he did engage, it seemed more directed at creating suspicion than sorting through the game. That said, I'm not sure he's my first choice anymore.

Especially given no follow up or actual questioning of Ari. For someone who is unsure on a slot, he sure isn't asking any questions or appearing to actually figure him out.

Again, these are quite a bit weaker than my read on Ari, but if we are in a weird LyLo and I have to hit the scum-team all at once, this is the team I would pick.

[acryon]

After review I'm looking at either
Yyr or vyse as wolf
Ginko, metal, acyron scum team.

How did we get soooo far apart on our reads?

[acryon]

feeling a bit paranoid about acryon with people still scum reading him. I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I found it a dishonest response from acryon not to note those points about lal and west when I asked him.

What are you confused about? I'll help!

[acryon]

Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine

His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?

Wrong/bad =/= insincere.

Whoopie, acryon is scummily dodging questions again. Yayyyyyyyyyy

[acryon]

feeling a bit paranoid about acryon with people still scum reading him. I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I found it a dishonest response from acryon not to note those points about lal and west when I asked him.

What are you confused about? I'll help!

I'm confused by you ignoring what I said.

How did I ignore it? It's a comment from you. You can feel how you want. What am I supposed to even say to that? "My response was honest, not dishonest like you felt"?

[acryon]

Simple, shallow, and barely backed up === insincere.

I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.

I'd address Acryon's points against me, but I'm pretty sure he just copypasted what Young said about me, and I was waiting for Ginko to comment on that.

It didn't strike me as off when he said it because we didn't have an Ari or Lal flip at the time. Now with Lal's flip, it makes things a little more worth looking at.

^If this is what you think about me, how come Lyserg needed to pry it out of you?

I'll give you the same reply I gave to him about things. My reads on people are constantly evolving, in varying degrees. I don't find it necessary to update the entire town on all of them. When I think it's necessary/helpful toward the town finding scum, I speak about it. You see the things I post about; those are things I deem most valuable and worth my/town's time.

[acryon]

Ignoring counterarguments is bad

How is that a counterargument?? Saying something feels dishonest isn't an argument; it's a statement. Literally the only reply to that is "well, it's not", which is obviously already my stance on it.

[acryon]

I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.

how can you have a crappy weak sincere case while being as actively involved in the game as Metal has been.

Not trying to bash him here, but by being inexperienced/lazy/not very good at the game.

I'll give you the same reply I gave to him about things. My reads on people are constantly evolving, in varying degrees. I don't find it necessary to update the entire town on all of them. When I think it's necessary/helpful toward the town finding scum, I speak about it. You see the things I post about; those are things I deem most valuable and worth my/town's time.

How is it not worth your time to ask you if you think that Lal and I are wolfmates after Lal is confirmed to be wolf.

Because that's something I'm trying to figure out on my own. I'd much rather get town to move forward on the Ari lynch, which I am significantly more confident in. Trying to pursue any and every scum-read just doesn't get you anywhere.

[quote="In post 558, farside22"]I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.

This is a counterargument to the "West/Lal" pairing. Farside is calling your response dishonest because you ignored this counterargument

I hope you can see how all of this is making you look like you can't defend your reads.[/quote]
I didn't intentionally dodge there, but what do I say when someone disagrees with my gut. And if you don't think this is clearly saying gut, then you are just an idiot and I can't help you:

Nothing in particularly necessarily strongly pinged, but I did have in my notes that West was the most likely partner to Lal if Lal was wolf/scum.

Considering there is a lot of gut involved in the reads particularly on you/Vyse/Lyserg, I think it would be pretty suspicious if I

could

strongly defend them. There is a reason I was/am pushing for an Ari lynch, which I can and have defended strongly, versus one of any of the three of you which I know I can't.

VOTE: Acryon

OMGUS at its finest ladies and gentlemen. Look through his ISO and look at the point where he starts to turn on me (hint: it's when I noted that I thought he was Lal's buddy). Luckily, you have helped me know where to steer the town to find the likely second wolf after we get our scum.

[acryon]

Can you explain why you didn't say anything about lal using west case against ari and later she retracts that statement. How does that read as scum/scum interaction? Usually I see scum follow town in reads so...???

Lal was clearly inexperienced on this site, so it didn't and doesn't make sense to look at her play like you would someone with more experience or try and place it inside our outside of typical scum play and action. Given that, it

does

make more sense to me to look at West's interaction toward Lal, which I did in 494.

[acryon]

@West & farside: You're asking me to externalize premature reads that were kept internalized for a reason. Then you are surprised that my reads built on a lot of instinct don't make sense to you. You sort of get what you ask for here.

[acryon]

@West & farside: You're asking me to externalize premature reads that were kept internalized for a reason. Then you are surprised that my reads built on a lot of instinct don't make sense to you. You sort of get what you ask for here.

They were kept internalized because you don't give enough of a shit to think about them before you post them, implying that your reads hold no weight to you other than their strategic value.
And now you're using that to deflect criticism, which you view not as harmful to town, but as harmful to your agenda of pushing an Aristophaneslynch.
And if we say that you're wrong, or that you made a mistake, or that you're being insincere, you say that those things are more inherently town than scum.

I wasn't the one that asked me about my reads. So my options are to A) Don't post them because they aren't of equal maturity, or B) Post them with the disclaimer. I decided to play ball and hope people could use their brains and understand the idea of varying levels of confidence and gutreads. My hope appears to be ill-placed.

I mean, come on, you literally just said that you think I'm the other werewolf. As you continuously make the point that you shouldn't have to defend yout reads because you don't care about them, you repeated the read.

I didn't say I shouldn't have to defend them. I think I've put a decent enough case out there for why you're the other wolf, but I'm hoping by tomorrow it will be a little better, or if I die at least someone else can carry the torch.

I disagree. People make bad, unfounded cases in mafia. It may be laziness, or just being bad at the game, but it doesn't make them scum. You can have a crappy weak sincere case. Strength has nothing to do with sincerity.

how can you have a crappy weak sincere case while being as actively involved in the game as Metal has been.

Not trying to bash him here, but by being inexperienced/lazy/not very good at the game.

Or by being scum.
Why is "or by being scum" not even an option for you here

By being scum is always an option, but there is a fine line between being bad at mafia/newbie/lazy and being scum in this case, and my gut tells me that it's the former.

Also, what do you think of Ginko and Metal abandoning their scumreads on you.

I think they are correct in doing so. I also have no reason to think either is scum.

[acryon]

VOTE: Acryon

Look through his ISO and look at the point where he starts to turn on me (hint: it's when I noted that I thought he was Lal's buddy).

someone with knowledge of D2 meta should get in here and tell this guy how much I hate it when people call me scum for dumb reasons.

Scum hate it too

[acryon]

gonna have to give that a hard nope. cant really let you claim that you've been consistently conveying your confidence on wolfWest. It's a decent case on the likely second werewolf when you want to push it, and a gutread that's only pinged you when you're asked to defend it.

What?! Where did I ever say that I have been consistently conveying confidence on wolfWest? If anything, it has always been a lackthereof, which I stated more than once.

Again, when you say that your goal is to push the AriWagon, the West/Lal read is just a little thing on the side that you don't have enough time to focus on. But when you want to invalidate my votes, it's suddenly the torch you want to be carried off.

Is it not very clear that my confidence in you being the wolf has been growing the more I've been talking to you? You're trying to act like confidence levels don't change over time.

[acryon]

@MSpeople: Is it common to question people when they state irl preoccupations and turn that into arguements for scumminess around here (alternatively: Is that a thing scum actually do that much around here?).

Considering the wiki has it listed as a possible definition of active lurking, I'm going to say yes.

Gonna butt in in your debate here: (@West and Acryon)

Nothing from metal stuck out to me or seemed to fit in there. He reads very genuine

His scumreads are "people that didn't vote Lal and also Ari." How does this read to you as genuine?

Wrong/bad =/= insincere.

That's nice and I agree, but why aren't you actually answering the question? Saying "West's conception of insencere is wrong" is not telling us why you think Metal is reading genuine to you.

He is reading genuine to me in that his statements sound like he actually believes them. That combined with no apparent attempts to do anything nefarious mean I don't think he's scum. That's just about the definition of a gut-read, which I already explained to West more than once.

No. You were asked about this, and you did try to give reasoning not entirely based on gutfeels about the West/Lal d1 interactions (515; weak nebulous reasoning, sure, but still), and you could've told me right there that gut had a lot to do with it, or even before in that same response to farside, instead of going "I wrote stuff on my notes about that and think West is the most likely partner".

That's some strong assumptions about my notes. I didn't say "I wrote stuff on my notes about that and think West is the most likely partner." I said "but I did have in my notes that West was the most likely partner to Lal if Lal was wolf/scum." There's a subtle difference there, but the key point is that have in my notes that west was the most likely partner to Lal if Lal was wolf/scum is the equivelent of "Wolves: Lal, West" in an excel sheet.

What do you think about Vyse, Ginko and Prawn as possible partners for Lal?

I don't think any of them are her partner. I think West is most likely for the reasons I stated, and without looking with confirmation bias, I couldn't tell you reasons why they would be.

I think they are correct in doing so. I also have no reason to think either is scum.

Do you really think the first sentence is a decent answer to that? Just because "they are correct" doesn't mean they are for the right reasons, this attitude is annoying in that I think that if I suddenly gave a townread with horrible reasoning you'd just take it.

No, but at a certain point you get tired. I can only dedicate so much time to this game, and walling back and forth takes a lot out of you. Metal's progression and reasoning for not scum-reading me any more seemed very genuine and natural. I have no reason to question it, because it didn't feel like he was trying to buddy and didn't feel off. Ginko's apparent thought process also makes a lot of sense. When you are one of two in a faction, it doesn't really make much sense to hard-push your team-mate D1, and to be the person to initiate it no less. The rest of his process in 459 about the other faction also makes sense, and would seem like a lot of work to go through to make me his buddy.

[acryon]

Acyron I just checked lal's join date and west join date.
You got some explaining to do.

Just quick posting to say that if you couldn't tell a difference in experience between west and Lal from their posting alone then you aren't using your brain

[acryon]

Didn't mean to be rude but it's just such a ridiculous notion and either you're being completely ignorant or you're playing dumb

[acryon]

Yes.

Okay, so to address all this. 1, why would you purposely tunnel? You are saying you'd rather pursue ONLY your main target. This reads as a generally scummy thing to do, as town want to get rid of any scum, regardless if it's their main scum-read, and pursuing those things that feel off, even if not by that main person, is the only way to get things moving in future phases.
I didn't post the vote solely to test Metal. Maybe I should have waited for him to respond before I came in with my follow-up, but I'm rather happy with the results and have no regrets about it. I wantedgeneral reactions to the vote more than his reaction to being voted.
And I've been busy. Wasn't meaning to not post or prod-dodge, but it ended up happening. Sorry I guess?[/quote]
Tunneling can be bad, but I think it makes sense to pursue my main target. How do I get the town to vote you if I'm pursuing several people all at once? Not to mention the fact that I am considerably more confident that you are scum than anyone else.

@Acryon,
I dislike so much of this post it's unbelievable!
How is talking about something at all counter-productive? How is it better than figuring things out on your own? The latter helps only yourself unless you come out and share your thoughts, and you may miss things or make considerations not everyone will. Having an open conversation about your thoughts is a huge way to actually find scum.

I agree, but when my reasons for feeling certain ways about other players are so much less mature than my reasons for you, it doesn't make sense to me to muck up the water like that. We foundscum. Let's lynch him.

On a similar topic, that last sentence about finding the second Wolf after you find scum. This comes off as extremely cocky and full of yourself, and I feel like you're almost too sure of this read on West. That, plus the fact that you seem to think the Warewolves, which happen to be the party that Controls The Night Kill, are of a lesser issue than scum themselves seems weird to me. First off, scum is scum. Why would one group of them present any difference of threat level than another? Secondly, how can you possibly be so sure you've got scum pegged down right now? And if I'm not scum, or if the voting swings more towards West, would you stick to your guns on voting me since I'm so obviously scum or switch to West, since he's now also obviously scum in your mind?
Generally, I see you as being pretty disingenuous and don't like your overall interactions.

Actually it's the exact opposite. Wolves are definitely the bigger threat, because if we kill the last wolf there is no NK, so obviously that should say something about how confident I am in you being scum compared to West being wolf. You don't get people to agree with you by being timid. Based on play and very strong gut, I feel you are definitely scum, and while my reasons may lack certain pieces that I wish I had, confidence can sort of stand in their place to ensure we don't miss out on a scum-lynch just because I couldn't get everything I wanted. Which I'm sure I wouldn't have a problem with if you had posted more. If people looked at your ISO, they would be hard-pressed to see that you're not basically active lurking 101.

So, what you're saying is "I didn't have it in my notes and my mind is thus closed to the possibility of them being Warewolves." and "Well, I'm sure if I looked for something I'd find it, so I'm not gonna look for it." Basically you've already tunnelled on what you wanted to and don't feel like scumhunting anymore. Fun.

Nope. Didn't say that.

[acryon]

Acyron I just checked lal's join date and west join date.
You got some explaining to do.

Just quick posting to say that if you couldn't tell a difference in experience between west and Lal from their posting alone then you aren't using your brain

Vote: acryon

So you

really

think that you couldn't tell the difference based on their posts? You have to be kidding.

[acryon]

Someone who is town get in here and explain how wrong farside is about this.

[acryon]

Also acyron I'm going to say your reason why west is scum with lal is awful. You used 2 quotes and never responded to how west called lal on her about face on using his case or how west asked lal about why she ignored him.

What do you think of metal's reason for voting west?

It's almost as if there's a reason I'm voting Ari and not West. Hint: it has something to do with the level of confidence and the case for each.

I think metal's reason make sense from his standpoint.

[acryon]

I cannot even believe there is a wagon on me right now. It's actually crazy.

[acryon]

This is a tough set-up, because at this point, because it only takes 6 to lynch, with 4 anti-town members, hypothetically it only takes 2 townies being wrong to secure a mislynch.

[acryon]

Also acyron I'm going to say your reason why west is scum with lal is awful. You used 2 quotes and never responded to how west called lal on her about face on using his case or how west asked lal about why she ignored him.

What do you think of metal's reason for voting west?

It's almost as if there's a reason I'm voting Ari and not West. Hint: it has something to do with the level of confidence and the case for each.

I think metal's reason make sense from his standpoint.

You obviously did not read what metal posted.

I did read it, but it's consistent with what I would expect from him and makes sense given what I've seen from him this game.

[acryon]

Quickposting while waking up.
Acryon is sill pushing the active lurking point >.<

It's not that I'm pushing it as much as he is literally doing the definition of it. It's up to you to decide whether you think active lurking is alignment-indicative, but what he's doing is the actual definition of it.

@Acryon: I mean, that's still kind of a nonanswer, "they make sense" is like sort of a minimum requirement (like when you were asked if one of Lal's point was "believable"... of course it'd be believable at least from her PoV). Metal's vote reads a bit OMGUS-y, but I guess the reason is that West was being overly defensive and didn't vote Lal? Like, I'd say that I don't know if that's really worth abandoning his previous Ari case, but that one also seemed very gut based (plus meta, I think).

But that's sort of the difference between scum-hunting and faux scum-hunting. I'm not looking for people who are wrong, because town are often wrong; I'm looking for people that appear to be doing things with ill intentions. I see no scum-benefit from metal switching the way he did and it reads genuine. If he has his own reasons to feel West is wolf, fine. I'm not going to say "hey, he's not wolf because X; he's wolf because Y." I do think his vote should still be on Ari because Ari is scum, but this town is sort of failing at the moment in general so I'm not going to focus on him for that right now.

[acryon]

There was a list of you guys from the same site, not sure how you can say who has more experience without someone saying who played x games.

This is only my third game.

Sorry what's omgus?

Metal: how did you know lal was gimme?

This is just you not paying any attention to the game.

I know Lalendra irl. I'll tell her to check in

[acryon]

I'm really sorry to be a piece of shit and do this, but I don't have the energy to tackle this game right now.

I really love this playerlist, it's just that this is just too dense for me to handle with so much going on IRL. Johnny's also kind of awol and told me he's not really feeling it either so I think you should just replace the entire slot Honey. Sorry everyone q.q

-Cheetory6

Understandable. Kill that school work and other stuff.

[acryon]

@Acryon: If you are still saying it because of the posts exclusively made to say he lacks time, then no (and it is part of a grander definition of the word not an equivalence, but whatevs).

I would say it's a helping of that along with some tone that I don't see coming from town like in post 197 for instance. Needless fluff post.

[acryon]

I'm more wondering if metal talked to lal or how they ended up in the game together.

How would this affect your read of metal?

I did see metal say he knew her in RL but west didn't know lal was gimme.

How would this affect your read of West?

[acryon]

I'm just going to call bs to this.
Acyron need I remind you of scrambles play in our last game together and how he just followed and switched reads based on nothing.

That was completely different. And he wasn't scum because he was wrong. Being wrong for scum benefit is generally scummy. Being wrong is not.

[acryon]

re: Acryon vote. He was already on my scumlist D1. The fact that he's pushing a wagon on Aristophanes, who is essentially clear, makes me think he's not looking at this game from a town perspective and is more pushing an agenda.

Can I just reiterate how you saying Ari is "essentially clear" is completely inane.

[acryon]

I'm more wondering if metal talked to lal or how they ended up in the game together.

How would this affect your read of metal?

I did see metal say he knew her in RL but west didn't know lal was gimme.

How would this affect your read of West?

It should change your view of west, don't you think?

Not really. Nothing in the way he dealt with Lal looks differently to me whether he knows her or not IMO.

I'm just going to call bs to this.
Acyron need I remind you of scrambles play in our last game together and how he just followed and switched reads based on nothing.

That was completely different. And he wasn't scum because he was wrong. Being wrong for scum benefit is generally scummy. Being wrong is not.

He switched reads to appear town.

Now tell me what, specifically you like about metal and find town.
Links,quotes something.
I'll be happy to point to metals list that had more null reads, and I again look at you for not saying anything, equal about half the players in the game and your fine with that.

I just don't see him as scum. I don't think the things he is doing are scummy. I believe you and others have failed to explain how they

are

scummy. I don't really need reasons to

not

scum-read someone other than not feeling like they've done anything to benefit scum or push a scum agenda. The burden of proof is on you to explain why he is scum, not on me to explain why I don't think he is scum (there is a difference between "I don't think he is scum" and "I think he is town." Is switching reads in a way that doesn't make sense to you something that scum does? Sure. Is it something that town does? Yep. Is listing a lot of nulls something that scum can do to avoid committing? Yep. Is it also something town lacking confidence does? You betcha.

[acryon]

Hmm... @West: You realise when Metal brought you as a scum read this day he was putting you on a trio of people who didn't vote Lal, right? (as, "these people are my wolf suspects" kind of thing). Why did you question purely your own placement there rather than the whole?

@Acryon: If you are still saying it because of the posts exclusively made to say he lacks time, then no (and it is part of a grander definition of the word not an equivalence, but whatevs).
In any case, I do dislike his latest questioning to you, the last quote you mentioned on 599 felt like misrep.

(quickposting over: gone for lunch and other stuff, also now musing the idea of Acryon+Metal scumteam; waiting to understand more of farside and Prawn's vote on Acryon)
P-EDIT:

Ginko you jerk. Good luck with your IRL stuff :C
@farside: Eh, fair enough, not sure if I missed it because skimming over, but can you tell me what you were testing when asking about West's experience and why that led to you voting Acryon?

There are 2 seperate groups in here.
1) is ms people (2) is other site people.
If acryon is that confident it reads as inside info that he should not have as an ms player.


ebwop: acryon I have asked and lyse asked you to provide examples. Your refusal to do say just reads as you can't do it.

How do I provide evidence for a lack of evidence?

You

need to provide legitimate examples of why he

is

scum.

[acryon]

But go ahead and see 365, 467, and 52 for things I've already said on this matter.

[acryon]

V/LA until Monday as usual for me.

[acryon]

@Acryon: Can you answer the last part of this (about sticking with your vote or not). I want to yell at Ari about it but I think you didn't answer to that in your response to him.

Just popping in for a second, but I sort of answered this in 599, but not directly. In short, I would continue to push Ari because he is more likely to flip scum than West is to flip wolf. The town's tide won't affect that.

[acryon]

Things

No one is disputing that metal has been switching his reads around in a somewhat confusing manner, but you need to show why that's scum. Erratic voting patterns doesn't make scum. Doing things with a scum-motivation makes scum. How is what he is doing scum-motivated?

Here's the thing. This game almost never boils down to "X, Y, and Z are things scum do. This person is doing X, therefore they are scum." If that were how scum were caught, this game would be a whoooole lot easier. But it's just not how things work. You need to catch scum by looking at how their play benefits a scum agenda, how they associate with confirmed players, how their play appears fabricated, etc. But trying to peg scum by applying such broad models to them just doesn't work.

You know better than this farside.

[acryon]

Of course there's little point to a one-man wagon, but why would I ever forego someone I am very confident in as scum to go after someone I am pretty confident is scum? That doesn't make sense. Obviously if it were between say, a West-wagon and someone that isn't Ari wagon, I would vote West, but as long as there is time left in the day, I see little reason to leave the wagon I am very confident of in favor of one I am less confident in.

[acryon]

And sorry for the lack of activity. It's going to be a few days before I'm able to pop in as much as I can (although it won't be nearly as much as I like).st like normal, but I'll still try to jump in). Obviously not exactly a good time to not be able to post much, but it is what it is.

[acryon]

Sooo now I have the flu. It's not really fair to the game to not be around like this, so I am sadly going to ask for a replacement in at least a couple of my games.

Sorry guys.

@Mod: Requesting replacement

.