Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[Ginko]

VOTE: West9
Who are you? What happened to the original West and the subsequent seven Wests?
-Cheet

[Ginko]

i) West probably doesn't know about that Canadian shiet.
ii) You should get an avatar. Will make it easier to differentiate your posts from other people's.
iii) Why the lack of RVS? You should vote West with me for his tactless choice of username.

-Cheet

[Ginko]

iii) Oh sure, stack votes this early. That seems like a good game plan.

Are you scared of wagons? Got a problem with acryon stacking his vote with Gliff if so?

Also:

Dammit! You got me! Obviously scum right here.

Super easy D1. Thanks Ari. c:
VOTE: Aristophanes

Because hydras suck. Really suck. Remove please.

That is a very hurtful RVS.

I'm with Gliffie.

That is a very hurtful RVS.

-Cheet

[Ginko]

Yes.

Ok what's the background story between all you people who know each other so I'm not flying blind

Do you want the bible-long version or what?

[Ginko]

and vengekilled JohnnyFarrar who was scum.

I managed to get on your bad side after six hours of playing together? I'm better at this than I thought.

[Ginko]

Yes.

Ok what's the background story between all you people who know each other so I'm not flying blind

Do you want the bible-long version or what?

Ginko, are you guys signing your posts or not?

We've decided on the "Sign posts unless we forget" thing. If you wanna know just ask

-Johnny

[Ginko]

I feel like that's important to know.

Ooh Lyserg, getting antsy already?

[Ginko]

^Made by Johnny btw

[Ginko]

Ginko, are you guys signing your posts or not?

I intend to as long as I remember to.

"Also, hydra guys (I forgot the name of your amalgamation), sup with the easy vote on me?What if I were town, making West a scummy bastard!?Also, two versions of scum in this game. In theory we could both be evil. Why side with him against me?"

Are you still joking around here or did you actually think the reasoning for my vote on you was 100% literal?

I am actually a little uptight about that. Acryon, whats with that? Trying to get an early wagon going?

Can you explain why an early wagon is a bad thing? Cuz I don't really seem to recall an instance of a game that you've been in where there's been a quickwagon on D1 that's resulted in anything bad happening?

@Ginko - Is your vote serious, or RVS?

It's serious in a way. It's at least not just completely random? If you'd like, I can come back to this after Aristo answers peoplies.

@West

, I'm seeing a lot of technical/non-game related stuff in your posts, so it kind of feels like your vote is just sitting there. Any particular reason for that?

his tone is bugging me partly for meta reasons

It seems more like you said the tone of one portion of what he was saying felt off and then the rest of what you were saying felt more logical based, whereas here it sounds more like you're saying his entire tone feels off. Is it just the snarky point that you mentioned or is there more to it than than?

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

VOTE: Orcinus_TheOriginal

Called this shiet so hard, Johnny owes me a fakedollar.

and yet it would appear that my votes have given rise to the first serious/non-gut coversation in the game.

You think you're so fucking cool with your reaction test bullshit. Just because you got one vote and reactio-

Vote:orcinus_theoriginal

Oh. q.q

Heavy, heavy backpedalling coming from Ari. I'm cool with my vote still being here.

What's Ari backpedaling and why would he be more likely to do it as scum?

I won't know if you're scummy until I get a rise out of you.
But the lack of conversation from you is anti-town at best.

Now that orcinus has started talking, what're your thoughts on him?

[Ginko]

Double post for signature. Last post was me.

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[Ginko]

Nah. It's getting pretty annoying that you just keep asking me that instead of game-related stuff though.

P-Edit: You sure are doing a good job of letting me do what I want to do before calling me out on potentially sidelining.
-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

why didn't you give your meta of me in post 70?
why didn't you call ppl out on questioning my votes especially after the discussion about stacking votes?
more importantly cheetoy, why aren't you asking me any questions? did i really earn a free pass with AW because i don't think that's how you operate

i) Because I'm more curious as to Ari's impression of you without the influence of my meta on you.
ii&iii) I don't really like touching other people's reaction test bullshit until after it's over and it was clear you were trying to do stuff. I have had questions about what you're doing, but you're harder to sort than other people and I find it easier to read people's reactions to you than your reactions to whatever questions I have at this point.

Why're you jumping on me for this right now?

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

it feels like you are setting ari up for a mislynch or at least baiting him into a bad situation because i was obviously underplaying my own strength

Can I come back to you on this?

to be honest i totally expected you to call me out on the rvs gimmick (it's actually my MO in the vast vast majority of games, but i didn't do it in advance wars so i've no idea why you didn't jump on it). did you feel like i was trying to target someone else with it?

Why're you expecting me to remember what you did at the start of a huge game that I replaced into at like page 80?

do you feel like i'm "jumping" on you right now? how hard do you think my scumread is? does it make you nervous?

I mean, I'm honestly a little paranoid that you're trying to push me into thinking this is the same situation as last game. It kind of strikes me that you might be trying to get me to townread you, especially with how impatient it feels you're being with me.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

why hasn't this happened yet?

Was mostly just curious as to what you actually make of those who reacted to you vs those who didn't and what you thought you'd get out of it in the first place. Neither of which I particularly wanted to ask while you're doing what you're doing.
I've also wanted to ask you about my main scumspect but I'm being all coy about it right now, so you'll just have to wait.

so you thought my RVS here was characteristic and not alignment-indicative?

Not really. I haven't looked at your scum meta at all, but I easily could see you being equally proactive in the earlygame as scum.

@83: I'm not really sure I understand? Can you be more explicit with what you mean?

[Ginko]

oh trust me. i have stronger tells on you than sidelining and you'll know when they start clicking

How is this not saying your read isn't particularly strong? I don't get it?

[Ginko]

Double post for signature. Last post was me.

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[Ginko]

*raspberry*
VOTE: West

No particular reason, no. It's not intentional, just haven't taken the time to really parse through the game until now.

I was expecting you to come at me and call me ridiculous for not remembering that your D1s are typically slow. The passive response here seemed a little underwhelming in a way that I wasn't really expecting. Really, I just don't like that you were more keen to give me an excuse than you were to challenge me on something somewhat bullshitty. Is there some kind of reason why I read your response as being more passive than I was expecting?

It also comes across to me that the way you were asking Aristophanes questions was as you trying to intentionally confuse him to make him look worse. Specifically you pushing this kind of logic feels confusing and distracting:

Also, he still hasn't disproved my initial logic.

I want a better explanation of your Ari read and reasoning for voting him plsandty.
I also like Lyserg's point on the backpedaling, even if I'm still really paranoid of him q.q

i was definitely waiting for cheetoy to call me out. i don't think it's ok that that didn't end up happening but i'm not totally sure. still think he was baiting aristophanes, but i can wait.

You would have thought I was town if I called you out? Why? I could tell that you were trying to get reactions from people and people were actually reacting to it. What would be gained from being like "lolorci wtf are you doing"? I'm gonna come back to this after I feel more awake because you give me real bad vibes that I don't know how to put to words atm.

I'm not really sure where I'm baiting Ari..? Can you point to specific posts?

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

i wouldn't have thought you were town, but i would've expected town-you to do so. it's a necessary but not sufficient condition

You've read my meta, so I don't know why you're acting like I don't have respect for reaction tests. I'm not going to assume you're doing random votes for no reason and thus I'm not going to just shit on whatever it is you're trying to do.

yes you are.

I'm tired, fight me.

feel free to enunciate your bad vibes and not just sling mud at me

I already slightly did. Can I have some time to let my thoughts sink in? I have other shit to do today and I've already spent a decent amount of time on this so far.

You said something that implied predicting Ari's vote on Orcinus: How do you read that vote?

q.q
Let's just say that Johnny and I have another bet going and I can let you know when it pans out.

[Ginko]

We've been talking and I don't have a lot to add. Was gonna tell Orc and Keely to get a room but I'm attached to one of them

[Ginko]

Incidentally, let's all talk about this sequence of events.

Lol.
Do you actually care about sorting me? Because it really feels like you're posturing and asking questions to the audience here, rather than caring anything about my intentions. I was tired this morning, hungover and looking over four games of mafia. Pitch the scum-motivation in pretending that I didn't know what you were talking about when I literally asked you to point it out to me. Why would I fake that? What would the point be?

I'm trying really hard not to make noise and get too caught up in what might just be OMGUS-feelings, but shit like this feels stupidly opportunistic on your end and I'm frustrated that I know I'm not in good enough of a mood to sort it in an unbiased way.

The post that Ginko quotes here (as well as post 9) are clearly not attempts to "see what people thought" or "testing the waters." It's him straight up saying "trying to stack early votes and make early wagons are bad." I mentioned before that Ari not liking quickwagons is consistent with his meta, so this whole "hey, don't vote for me because of that, I was just getting information" thing is backpedalling.

For some reason the hyperbole irked me here at first, but I'm not as sure anymore. I don't agree that it's 'heavy heavy backpedaling' and I also think that it's somewhat plausible that Aristo was trying to do a reaction test, but I feel kind of null on this one point now on you now that you've elaborated on it.

If Aristophanes is legitimately trying to disprove the stupid logic behind my initial vote

Did you actually think that it was particularly likely that he was?

Why didn't you vote for me here, Ginko? Why wait until Lyserg? And who's actually your top scumspect?

I only voted for you when Lyserg did because I was hoping to get responses from you without you having any kind of direct pressure on you. Once Lyserg started voting for you, there was no point in waiting as your responses would be influenced by that.
My reads are starting to get a little jumbled, but around #70 I started kind of suspecting you and was trying to be subtle about it.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

@mod

I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to go V/LA, I'm neglecting school super hard by focusing too much on mafia right now. I'll try to get a post or two up every day but I can't maintain this level of focus here at the moment.
Please give me questions still and give me shit if I actually go missing for more than two days.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

Quick post.
Second bet was that I thought Ari was going to unvote orci once he started being more explicit with his intentions. My thought was that townAri is pretty likely to go after bad/confusing play and once he realized orci's intentions he would be less likely to be on his case over that. Him being less predictable makes me less certain on him.

first he said that he'd come back to me which is an implicit acknowledgement of what i was talking about
then he said that he didn't know what i was talking about

I acknowledged that I would come back to my intentions of saying what I thought about Ari afterwards. If I was explicit about how I was leaning town on him because his play was striking me as his regular MO, he would have reacted accordingly and it would have been useless. In my head I was thinking "I will come back to what I think about Ari", not "I need to clear up why orci thinks I'm being opportunistic". Please pitch why I would intentionally lie about that and not just have made a fuck up while coming back to the game from other things?

I'm gonna talk to Johnny about Ari/other things tonight when I get a chance.

If I missed something please bold my name so I can see it if I need to skim.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

@Ari

, how much do you remember from our hangout before New Years a little while ago?

[Ginko]

Double post for signature. Last post was me.

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[Ginko]

I think I'm working on a bigger post and wanted to ask that first.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

From playing with him I don't ever recall him being as sloppy with his posts as he has been

What's your perception of Ari's towngame?

Metal. I think a Ari/Metal scumteam is possible.

Can you elaborate on this? What about their play strikes you as linked?
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@Ginko - Could I get a quick overview of your reads, particularly on the non-MS people you've played with before?

Acryon

- nullscum, his early interactions felt a little safe. It seemed like he was playing passively and defensively until he got called out and only then he became more invested in seeming like he was trying to sort people.

Aristophanes

- null, kind of wary of him for his quickwagon comments and I want to hear what his other thoughts on orcinus are.

farstefan

- dead

Gliffie

- dead

Lalendra

- basically dead

Lyserg

- townlean, his scumgame is much more underwhelming than his towngame. Questioning feels like it has purpose as others have said.

Metal

- nulltown, there's just a lot of the right kind of paranoia in his last 1-2 posts that strike me as town. His connection between orci/Acryon feels deep.

orcinus

- q.q null, not really sure how he got into this really focused angle of me lying here, but it feels pretty paranoid and he's not backing down from it which seems genuine? I haven't looked at a scumgame from him yet and that's one of the first things I want to do when I get time.

prawneater

- basically dead

VysePresident

- nulltown, I like his tone. I also like that his questions seem like they have purpose, but this is multiball so not really sure.

West

- nullscum, combination of badvibes and him taking Ari's jokeposts so seriously even after Ari's confirmed them as such. Need to see more from him.
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Stream of consciousness

:

it feels like you are setting ari up for a mislynch or at least baiting him into a bad situation because i was obviously underplaying my own strength

Can I come back to you on this?

Orci: "Your questioning of Ari is opportunistic/baity."
Ginko: "I don't really agree because I'm actually kind of leaning town on Ari right now, but I can't say that I'm leaning town on Ari out loud right now because if I do then it will out a behavior check I'm trying right now. I will explain my thoughts on Ari later."

I'm not really sure where I'm baiting Ari..?

Can you point to specific posts?

Ginko: "I know that I need to elaborate on my thoughts on Ari later, but I'm not sure where orci is thinking that I'm baiting Ari, especially since I know in my head that I think he's town and thus it's hard for me to single it out right now.

That is why I will literally ask him to point out specific posts

."

Why would I do the bolded if I was trying to posture and redirect the conversation? How would you not answer the question and then bring us back to the exact same spot? I really don't understand what you're trying to push here as what my thought process was. It legit makes no sense to me.
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Why wouldn't it merit a vote? Votes exist for more than to just show a desire to lynch.

In the same post you said that Aristophanes seemed like scum. Why're you trying to act like your vote wasn't serious now when it really seems like it was?

P-Edit: Implying my question is a fluff-post.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

I'll just elaborate because I feel like I'm not playing cleanly enough to be indirect at this point.

@Aristophanes

, when I was rereading, I got kind of caught up on your indirect quicklynch 'survey'. I basically remembered that just before New Years I'd talked to you about Open 572 on here, a game in which I was quicklynched in the first six hours and I'm pretty sure I remember expressing how mafiascum was more open to quickwagons than I was used to. I'm basically just curious if you forgot about this?

Why does it feel deep? Especially considering posts like 16 and 18.

Mostly have the following in mind:

Acryon and Orc being teammates is from their interactions, they were getting some good discussion from each other instead of the typical accusation and defensive statements I've usually seen.

I just don't really see scumMetal looking that far into interactions from my experience with him.

@Cheetory - Not to be a dick about the whole hydra thing, but I'd like to if that readslist represents your thoughts or the thoughts of the hydra.

I tried checking in with Johnny about reads, but he hadn't and hasn't really read super in-depth yet, and mostly just said there was nothing he particularly disagreed with in my readslist from what he'd seen so far.

About the readslist itself, that's a awffullll lot of nulls and leans.

i) Townlean is stronger in my head than it might sound to other people.
ii) Literally just got out of a game of multiball mafia having played as scum. You can play pretty protown as scum and hence it's harder to scumhunt. The other scumteam in said game were both players I thought were town almost all game and most people townread me and my partner almost all game.

Why did you even ask me this when you were just going to ignore my answer and say "well, Ari said he's joking, so that's that."

I was kind of hoping you'd say that this wasn't really all that important of reasoning to you. Like, it reads as pretty forced to me that you're going after Aristophanes for being derpy with RVS-stuff in such a blatant way when that strikes me really hard as being obviously explained by his playstyle. It feels like you're jumping on something easier than I expect you to.

I suppose I understand what Ginko is saying, but I don't feel like I've arrived at a particularly interesting place or done anything particularly interesting for him to townread me for that

If you really want I can hunt down quotes of specific lines of questioning and followthroughs that feel townie to me. Good example in this latest post of yours is pressuring orci with a vote for ignoring you.

I also don't like how that read is the same for Vyse except you expressed being less confident because multiball there, but didn't do that with me (where even you seemed to specifically downgrade your read of him more to the null side because of that)

You've posted more/gave me a stronger feeling with more of your posts/I have meta on you.

Uh huh. You definitely weren't scum in a game and quickhammered West that led to a scum win.

q.q I honestly didn't think of this game because it was so unremarkable besides my incredibly stupid scumplay. Does it really strike you as an example of a super beneficial quickwagon? Because I associate the quickhammer I did with me almost losing the game for Ari and I at the time.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

I could totally see this being the three Mafia Goons being really messy on D1.

Why specifically mafia?

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

@Metal

,

What's your perception of Ari's towngame?

@West

, what do you make of Ari's unvote on Metal?

[Ginko]

^-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

If you already knew it was likely commonplace, why go to the lengths of indirectly asking in such a weird way? Why not just directly ask? Like, walk me through your intentions there.
-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

I need to make sure there isn't some reasoning I'm missing on Ari wagon, but I'm not really feeling him being lynched right now based on what I've seen. I like that he was open about remembering talking about it/didn't try to imply that it was something he'd forgotten.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

Quick post of thoughts from one head not consulting the other -

he tunneled in on me, West and Metal

This is funny to me

Lyserg, you're noticing similarities with her scum game, which is fine and dandy, but have you checked to make sure she's not like that as town as well?

Slips are pretty meh.

@farside do you think confirmation bias is alignment indicative?

Willingness to rethink reads strikes me as townie from Metal.

waiting to discuss with other head before making a vote. The best vote in the game is farside's based on 166, but I can't agree with it because I can totally see Ari being more willing to put up with our shit than a stranger's. The testing the waters thing is a bit hard to believe though.

bbl~

[Ginko]

^Johnny btw

[Ginko]

@orci

, can you link me your last scumgame? Struggling to find something more recent than february.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

Confirmation bias?
I've heard the term but don't recall what it means.

Bad at explaining things but it's basically trying to find evidence to prove your own reads rather than letting the evidence form the reads.

^Johnny

[Ginko]

@Lalendra

,
Please get an avatar. I will give you high fives if you do.

Hasn’t put out a whole lot of his own opinions yet

Why is this a reason to think Acryon's posts have a townfeel to them?

She did ask more for clarifications there than here

Are you referring to her asking for clarifications on general mafia-related things or asking for clarifications on things that people mean?

The Keely's BS game was sorta short and I still wish I had more townLalendra material, because the difference isn't really that harsh, but

this makes me read this Lal as scummier anyways

.

Can you expand on this thought? Not really sure what you mean.

@Lyserg

, I'm kind of confused as to how you're arriving at a comfortable place with your vote on Lalendra when it seems to me like you're pretty unsure of your individual points about her in #286. Is it the culmination of a bunch of small things that's just making you feel like she's probably scum?

You on the other hand seem to jump to whatever popular bandwagon is going. First with orcinus_theoriginal

How was orcinus the popular bandwagon when Ari was the first person to vote for him??

@Metal

,

What's your general perception of Ari's towngame?

If you ignore me again I will cut you.

I've been feeling like Ginko is somewhat lacking, not sure how much of this is due to a combo of me overhyping the Cheet head in my mind for how he killed all of my scumteam last game I played with him and that they seem rather busy.

Why're you acting like I didn't completely botch the entire first half of that game? o.o

It wouldn't be too hard to get me to shift my vote at this point.

What's the value in saying this? You literally disarmed your own vote on me. :/

I'm currently looking over Acryon and West and want to talk to Johnny about both of them because I'm insecure and need external validation/I want to say words that actually make sense about them. I can see where people are coming from on Aristophanes, but I just don't really think he's scum. Going with gut>logic on this one and feel like his play is more just bad than scummy.

Need to see a concise Lalendra case because my head got really fuzzy trying to parse most of what was going on there besides like one of farside's points on her somewhat resonating with me. Might summarize all the votes when I have some more time today and then see what I think about it.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

Somebody explain confirmation bias for me, I don't think she's getting it.

Vyse's and Lyserg are both suspecting my other head for not being as good as they want him to be. Stuff like that makes mafia less fun :C

Vyse in particular seems weird to me because I don't know if he's just bad at voting or he's avoiding talking about someone else

Also Metal doesn't remember my play? I must have been slacking recently :C:C

- Johnny

[Ginko]

Is this just you being against giving people townreads? I'm very confused by this point.

Scum can investedly scumhunt in a more convincing way as there's another faction that they know exists. Much more likely than usual for a townread to be scum, I literally know from super recent experience. I'm not discouraging townreads, but I'm going to try really hard not to let my reads on the town side get too static and I suggest other people keep this in mind as well.

is the "you" that I bolded supposed to be a general "you"

General you. Can replace it with 'one' as well.

This doesn't explain why you ignored it.

Don't really see how I'm ignoring your response? Unless you mean I'm not analyzing your response as a whole or something?

And, of course, you're still ignoring that he straight out says "I was making a point that [West's] logic was flawed."

I was making a point that his logic was flawed, but I also was

definitely still joking around

.

I feel like the bolded is a pretty important distinction that you're blatantly ignoring.

Fuck that shit, RVS/joking period ended at post 41. Ari was continuing his "we could both be scum" argument at 62, while he was making the non-RVS argument of "Orci isn't doing anything."

Yeah because you egged him on about it here:

Also, he still hasn't disproved my initial logic.

I'm kind of struggling to clearly articulate exactly what is bothering me so much about the way you're approaching this, but in my head it's like you're saying "Aristophanes is scummy for the serious RVS stuff he was saying-." So when Ari says it's a joke and it really seems to me like it's pretty clearly a joke, it's weird that you throw shit at him over his jokereasoning, he responds to that and now you come back and say that it wasn't RVS reasoning because he responded to you prodding at him over it? Your tone wasn't even clearly serious there, so it comes across as feeling especially sleezy to me. It seems to me like he only talked about it later because you set him up to do so.

^

Everyone

should make an effort to read this part of the game because I'm pretty sure West is setting Ari up here.

Regarding his meta, that's one of the points of this. scumAri trying to emphasize the possibility of a situation where he and I could be on separate teams but both be scum makes complete sense to me after the last D2 game.

Can you explain this more clearly?

Acryon

:
i) Do you consider yourself to be a player who has slow starts in general?

ii) I'm pretty shrug with most of his play up until his 22nd post at which point he starts to focus really hard on Lalendra. This feels kinda inconsistent with his play prior in this game. He becomes very focused on asking Lalendra questions and making points as to why she's scummy, whereas he was kind of more disinterested in pushing for Aristophanes or asking him questions. I feel like there's a very distinct difference in playstyle being taken here and it doesn't even make much sense from a perspective of "I think that Aristophanes is less scummy than Lalendra", because his reasoning when he unvotes is that he wants to avoid a quickhammer.
Kind of gives me the impression that Ari or Lalendra might be a scummate of his [more likely Lalendra just from some other interactions] or that he might have been forcing his scumread on Aristophanes and felt uncomfortable pushing it.

iii) A lot of his play beyond pushing his main scumread feels just kind of reactionary. Any post that isn't him making a point on why someone is scummy is usually just a response to other people's questioning of him. I don't really see a lot of outward questioning that comes across as him making a genuine effort to try and sort people.

iv)

Knowing she has only played one game on their site, do your feelings change?

Why is this a valuable question for you to be asking farside given your scumread on Lal? Run me through the thought process here.

[Ginko]

^-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

Oh, because Johnny sucks at explaining things.
@farside:
Confirmation bias is typically when a player is like "I think this person is scum" and then they proceed to see everything and anything that player does through a biased POV because they already think they're scum.
P1: "I think player X is scum because of this one reason that might be reasonable. I also think their lurking is scummy!"
P2: "But player X has a general meta of lurking?"
P1: "I'm literally so sure he's scum so I will ignore this consideration."

I'm gonna go suffer through schoolthings now.
zzzzz.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

Spoiler: Stuff about West/Questions for West about Stuff about West

"though I'm still in a jokey mood, the point about West's logic is a legitimate point that I want you to respond to."

But he didn't follow up on it or give any indication that he actually wanted us to answer him in his response to us, which makes the last part of your point feel forced. This is getting really semantic.
zzzz.

I'd expect at least one "well, even if he was serious..." from you by now.

Definitely gonna need to run this by me again. No idea what this means.

We're in a situation now where simply killing several scum isn't enough to confirm someone as town, which is something that I'd expect Ari to try to emphasize if he were scum in order to avoid a similar situation to last game.

So.. if I'm reading this right, you think Ari was trying to discredit you that early in the game based on a fear of you potentially being conftowned?

^His response to me "egging him on" would have been the perfect place for him to say "i was joking." But he doesn't do that, he simply made the point again (which still reads to me as a real point he was trying to make, along with the fact that he's still never referred to that point as a joke)

I feel like arguing this isn't going to be productive, so I'll just say this:
The fact that you're so easily confbiasing things as coming from a scumPOV with Aristophanes without you taking any kind of consideration as to his MO generally being a little unorthodox feels dishonest. There are a lot of things that you're claiming are really likely to be scummotivated on his part that read null to me knowing Ari's meta and I really don't like that. You never prod him directly about whether said point was a joke or not, instead you run with that assumption and yeah it could be impatience, but it just doesn't read that way to me.

If you want to respond to me here, go ahead, but I'm probably going to just carry my opinion on this forward and see what I think about the rest of your play from here. I'd rather see you focus on other things so I can sort more of your play as a whole and I feel like we're only going to talk in circles here and nobody's going to prove anything to anyone else in the game.

I'd also like to know how much of his guttownread on Ari is based on his theory that I'm baiting him.

I'm not much convinced by the reasons people are pushing on him and I've liked 1-2 things he said in his last few posts.

So basically Ari's wagon still sucks

Why does the Ari wagon suck?

@Vyse

, I'd like you to meet my friend the bottom half of post #297
Also, West was my original top secret suspicion.

I liked a lot of what acryon has said this game. Plus some of his play reminds me of our last game together.

Can you go into detail on this? Where and what in his play reminds you of his towngame?
Also,

@farside

, can you please give me your thoughts on West?

[Ginko]

Double post for signature. Last post was me.

-

C

h

e

e

t

o

r

y

6

[Ginko]

Will make an active effort to try and read the Lalendra wagon tomorrow.
-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

Also interested to see what Ginko makes of it. It's shocking to me that people haven't commented on it directly, as it's pretty hot.

It's a rather dense case. I think I have somewhere around like an entire page of point form notes that I need to sift through for it? q.q

@Acryon

, weh. Young and prawn are your #3 and #4 slots for town? Why? Young's only made a naked vote and then disappeared and you literally just said this about prawn:

This is a little weird because I feel like I was the primary person pushing and outing Lal.

If he's weird, why is he so far up your list?
'Splain that shit pls.

Also, I just don't like the difference in pushing for Lal/Ari while voting for them and not because of you switching or anything like that. Your questioning/push of Aristophanes was weak, while your push/questioning for Lal is much stronger.

I thought this was very clear. Her lack of experience obviously made me question my scum-read on her slightly, so I asked farside (someone who I think is town) what it did to her read of Lal.
Getting a second opinion from someone who I think is very likely town helps me sort of my read. This seems like pretty standard play, so it's odd to me that this strikes you as off.

I think your question stood out to me because it looked like you were trying to softpush farside into thinking Lal is town, which just seemed really strange. Makes a little more sense now with your townread on farside.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

Also, why's Lyserg so low?

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

@Metal

, didn't you say Lalendra and Acryon were leaning town?

We can fight about this when the game's over.

My place or your's?

The fact that they left with a townish read on him is odd to me considering Cheetory's inability to read him correctly ever (who has made most of the contributions to the game so far as far as I can tell). Also, we're 3 days left until deadline and he's still pushing this weak case on West which no one is buying. He has yet to really take a stance on Ari or Lal.

i) "Cheetory is not allowed to have a read on Aristophanes, not even a slight one because he's been wrong about him two times recently-"
You're dumb. Stop being dumb. I'm not claiming to have a strong read on Ari, I've just said that I don't think that he's scum and don't want him to be lynched over other people.
ii) I haven't taken a stance on Aristophanes? Uh? You literally just acknowledged that I had a stance on him in this post? lol..

iii) I've said I'll look at Lalendra today and I honestly hadn't realized the deadline was that close so I'll make it a promise if it'll make you happy. Why does the fact that there's only three days left make you think the game is set in stone? It's the same length of deadline as it was back on D2?

What about the Lalendra wagon do you like? Give me specific points.
Also, I'd like your thoughts on West pls and ty.

wash

*throws rice in the fire*

I have class now so someone tell me if there's something in here that I'm missing. Going to compare all of the stuff that people have said about her with her actual play tonight.

@LALENDRA WAGON ANALYSIS:

i) Acryon's reasoning in his votepost:
-when she gives her read on acryon it only focuses on the stuff that he said during RVS
-that her read on Aristophanes escalated from her being slightly wary of him to something worth voting for just from him making a naked vote
-her putting Ari close to lynching range when she'd made a big deal out of Lyserg doing the same thing to a lesser degree before
-changing from Ari to Lalendra because he doesn't want a quickhammer
ii) Aristophanes's reasoning in his votepost:
-agrees with the escalating read on him based on the naked vote as being scummy
-that it feels opportunistic that Lalendra sheeped West's reasoning for voting him later
-that Lal was possibly third party hunting
-that West/Metal/Lal scumteam is likely
iii) orcinus's reasoning just before his votepost:
-that she's fencesitty
iv) farside's reasoning [in a non-vote post]:
-stating concern for mislynch
-using vague words when discussing a read on Aristophanes and then voting him for a naked vote
-her being against meta discussion
-flipping her read on farside based on her suspecting her
v) Lyserg's reasoning in his votepost:
[I could be totally wrong on some of these so lemme know if I'm wrong]
-a lack of questioning of things in this game vs her town game
-some of her questioning seems like posturing to try and either dismantle suspicion on her and to push a scumread on someone
-some of her points seem like too much of a stretch
-an opportunistic Ari vote

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

VOTE: Acryon

[Ginko]

Acryon is scum who doesn't understand how someone can distrust 6 people because he's only hunting for a selection of the scum in this game.
Lalendra case is full of a lot of 'Lalendra is being weird' points and her doing things that people don't understand.
Someone make striking points that I can relate to on Lalendra or you should get on board this sexier wagon.

-Cheetory

[Ginko]

Distrusting 6 people is one thing

So you don't care for 6 different people, fully half of the players

Point isn't that you were trying to push a scumread on him or anything, but that the way you approached responding to him on this felt exasperated as though he was being ridiculous for not caring for that many people. Mindset there reads hard as someone who's hunting for an ordinary number of scum.

Was probably dumb to act like I thought it was a scumslip, but between this, what feels like reactionary play earlier in the game and what feels like a forced scumread on Aristophanes, I'm really hoping this wagon takes off today.
I'm willing to vote for Lalendra to avoid no lynch, but I'd rather lynch someone I'm actually scumreading.

@Lyserg

, you're right on West questioning the jokepost. Made a mistake. I still feel like there's something wrong in that section of the game with West's interactions with Aristo, but I'm sucking at pulling out what I feel is wrong about it. Eh.

@farside

,
i) Aristo has always made a huge deal out of third party hunting. I think he sees werewolves as being third party in this game and thereby thinks that it's bad to be scumhunting them? I don't really see those examples as being scummy.
ii) Most of the other quotes you've mentioned are trying to find scum associative tells. I think there's a difference between having a mindset of 'there's only one scumteam in this game I need to hunt after' vs 'I think these people might have a connection'.

Why did you say nothing about Lal who's whole case was about Ari?

Can you repeat that again? Not sure I understand.

goes on when pushed no wishy washy stance on that.

I think it is more him being odd than him lying,

although both are worth looking at.

You wouldn't call the bolded wishy washy?
A lot of these points for townAcryon really seem like a stretch, farside. Is there something metabased that I'm missing here?

One of her primary criticisms of Lyserg was that he put Ari close to a lynch (he didn't), and she put Ari to L-1. So the reasons for suspecting people are BS, which also makes sense why she chose to comment on my joke post but nothing else. The move to voting Ari was unnatural.

i) The hypocritical point strikes me more as bad play than anything.
ii) How is her vote for Ari unnatural?
She says this like two posts before her vote in her ISO:

My strongest scumread right now is Orcinus, so I'm going to go with that even though he's nowhere near a lynch, and will change my mind if I'm convinced Ari is scum.

-Cheet

[Ginko]

Do you think that everyone thinks that naked votes are null? Also, she doesn't just say it's the naked vote, as she also points to finding West's points more convincing after reading them again.

I do think it's ridiculous to call out 6 players as being people you don't trust. It just doesn't mean anything when you say you distrust half the player base. It's not useful to town at all and it makes it look like you don't want to take a real stance. Obviously you may think internally that any of 6 people may be scum, but the point is that stating it to the town is completely useless for town, and the only person it is good for would be the person saying it if they are scum.

I hate that I somewhat like this response.
Zzzzzz.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

I was wondering why you said nothing about lal's cases which is basically full of missing things said in the game to create a case and why your fine with her "case" in ari.

I could be wrong, but it seems like you're trying to frame that it's off that I would comment on other people being opportunistic with their votes on Ari, but that I'm not scumreading Lalendra for having a case with holes in it?
I mean, if that's the case, I'm just not reading her intentions as being opportunistic to the same degree that I would for others. I kind of expect Lalendra or Aristophanes to be more likely to go after things that might not make a ton of sense. Scumtells don't work well when applied universally to every kind of player in every situation and I haven't seen the opportunism in the same way with Lalendra's case on Aristophanes.

Gink, I'm not really feeling this Acryon wagon. Want to hear your thoughts on what I just said about Prawn.

I don't think readlists like prawn's are super out of the ordinary on this site. I had some weird vibes about prawn's first few posts, but I'm not feeling anything strong about him anymore. I'd like you to tell me what you think about acryon's 'flipping read' on Vyse.

I think it's really telling that she went back on this point as well, though.

Eh. Was kind of worried that I might have missed a point somewhere along the way, but she also says this:

Also the reason my reasoning for the Ari vote contains little of your argument is because I was given so much crap for agreeing with you and disliking the naked vote that I felt I should put together more solid points instead of going "yeah, what west said."

Is she really going back against your points if she later admits to this here or do you think she would blatantly backtrack like this?

@Ginko: Acryon wagon is sexy and all, but I feel like you are being too dismissive of the Lalendra wagon. Some of that contrived reasoning and the reactionary not curious attitude (that aligns with meta) feels like more than just weirdness to me.

I'll try my best to read some of her stuff on D2 and compare tomorrow, but I just don't have any time right now. I don't know if I can see the lack of curious stuff without properly comparing the two playstyles.

Also: "Willingness to change reads is townie" Applies to Acryon: Yes, no? why?

Eh? I feel like that's a strong blanket statement about changing a read on someone o.o
Is there a specific example of acryon's reads changing that you feel I should be looking at? I can check back later but I just don't have much time right now.

Acryon mixing up his read on Vyse feels badddd. I could see logically see townbad, but man my gut is screaming scum at that whole flipflop. I feel like if he was genuinely scumreading Vyse from before and had actually mixed up the meaning of Lyserg's question, he would have said it was weird that Lyserg was asking him for reasons why he would think Vyse is more likely to be town. I also dislike that he dodged answering Lyserg about West.

Orci and Young really need to do stuff.
Because they're fucking scary bastards and I don't like how quiet they're being q.q

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

This is awful.
You basically read as ignoring anything lal or ari saws and reading them as newbs.
Another example of why I don't like your reads is here you talk about acryon comment about vser but say nothing about metals read or pawn reads that change and are not explained for it.

I find it difficult to believe your scum read is valid when others do the same thing.

i) I will fully admit that I'm being a little slow with reading Lalendra and I think it's moreso because I feel uninvested in the interactions with her and that's probably my fault for not getting involved and asking her questions. I'm not acting like I think she's town, I just like other players as the lynch more than her. For Aristophanes I think he's town and it's not based on some policy townread bullshit like you're saying here. I won't be heartbroken if Lalendra is the lynch, but you're acting like it's bad to suspect someone more than her and want a different lynch.

ii) There's a huge difference between forgetting that you're scumreading someone to the point where you give townpoints to them and putting someone in null instead of town in your readlist. Plus, this other point about changing reads is lammeeeeeee. Acryon's read didn't change. He forgot it. Yeah, prawn's reads changed, but there's a huge difference between completely forgetting your read on someone and having it change and not explain why. Acryon is super fucking invested in comparison to both of the examples you're pushing here and there's also the fact that he went out of his way to give townreasons for Vyse and then said nothing about West.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

I'm not really sure I understand your point.
I don't think you intentionally flipped your read on Vyse or ignored West?
The former point reads as scum poorly keeping track of their reads and the latter just reads as weird. Do you want me to insert speculation into why I think the latter could be coming from scumPOV? Because I have thoughts, they're just really paranoid and just stopping at weird makes me sound less like I'm crazy than when I elaborate on my entire thoughts on every action people have q.q

No, which is why I noted it as such that some would say it's scummy, but even then it still just isn't the tipping point; I don't think anyone things it's scummy enough to be that. To me, it felt more like she saw farside's post saying she felt Lal was scummy, and this caused Lal to quickly move forward with the Ari wagon rather than screw around with another direction. Which would also explain the contradiction in her play here vs what she chastised Lyserg for.

I was reading back and thought for a second that I'd found something super scummy in this interaction involving timestamps but I feel like I just got caught up in nothing.

I voted for Ari in vote 171 and didn’t address farside’s points until 172. Those were two separate posts because I was on my phone, catching up on a lot and posting as I read, not easy to do multiquotes and such that way. Chronologically my vote for Ari came before I even read farside's post.

^Does the following explanation not seem plausible to you? She does respond to farside in a second post. [initially had thought that the timing between 171 and 172 was too close for her to have not read farside's post and then make a response, but it feels super subjective after thinking about it so meh]

-Cheet

[Ginko]

Of course it seems plausible or I don't think she wouldn't have said it, but I don't believe that it's true.

Okay.. so is there a better point I should be following on the Lalendra wagon? Or can you give me something that should convince me that it's not true?

I mean this is sort of what I'm asking. Do you really think it's more likely the former than the latter?

I was saying that I believe the flipflop on the read seems like a scum-mistake moreso than a town-mistake and that the lack of mention of West was moreso weird than blatantly scummy and I don't really understand.
Trying to piece together you and West as a scumteam didn't really make much sense to me because I didn't think West would just outright dismiss my case on you if you're scummates and the other thought of you and Vyse being scum also didn't really make much sense given how you guys are interacting.
For the flipflop it just makes more sense to me that someone who's scum and has a few real scumreads/a few exaggerated scumreads would be more likely to forget who their lesser scumreads are because they're forced.

[Ginko]

I think my scenario is more likely. It's weird to me that you would just take it at face value.

I'm not taking it at face value. Like, it's more likely to be scum-motivated than town-motivated, I'll give you that, but I'm just not seeing the hardcore lynchlust people are having for Lalendra, because the case on her reads as a bunch of little points adding up to an okay case.

I think town make mistakes and confuse things far more often than scum. I thought that was a pretty accepted though, which is why hunting for scum-slips is so bad.

It's less that it's a mistake and more that it's the second time you've done something that strikes me as forcing a scumread on someone. I would have been much more inclined to believe your read on Vyse had just changed from Point A to Point B, but it strikes me as super off that you just say that you more or less just forgot that he was leaning scum. Like, it just reads to me like you don't want people to think that the read itself was fake, but that you were earnestly reading Vyse's interactions as being town. Given that acryon wagon is becoming less likely of a thing I'll make it homework to read game you linked.

P-Edit:
Oh good. Acryon wagon is gone q.q.

@farside

, I did in #150 but it was pretty bare bones. I'm reading West as scummy.
Lalendra is probably ranking next highest on my scumdar, it's just quite a bit of a gap between West/Acryon and her :/
Have some other weak suspicions but they're mostly just based on paranoia over inactivity.
I'd personally rather not compromise on lynches in a setup like this.

[Ginko]

Fuck. Last post was me. Sucking at signing today.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

Lynchlust was probably an exaggeration on my end. I just don't see what's so compelling about Lalendra wagon to the point where people are saying that she's way scummier than anyone else in the game. It's just not convincing to me in a way that I feel great about the idea of her being the lynch.

I never said I forgot he was leaning scum. He was near the middle of the pack on my list, which is of course going to be a bit more nebulous than those on the outer ends, and then I answered the question the way I did because I misread it. I did screw up in misreading it, but I didn't screw up in forgetting what I thought about him in general. Maybe it will make more sense if we remove the details like this. I say "X is a 2 on the scum scale and Y is a 4 on the scum scale, 10 being the highest." You say "Why is X lower than Y" and I give the answer I do, for why Y might be less likely to be scum than Y. A 2 on the scum scale is higher than a 1 on the scum scale, but neither are anywhere near a 10.

I'm saying that it seems like you forgot because you didn't prod back at Lyserg being like "why are you asking me for reasons I'm townreading someone I'm leaning scum on?"

Rest of this post makes my eyes hurt q.q
I'll get coffee and come back to it later.

-Cheetory

[Ginko]

Don't have time to engage this right now. Going to try my best to be back and around for deadline.

Consider this me expressing

Intent to Hammer

on Lalendra.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

Not gonna post much because Royal Rumble hype, but here's what's in my head. Haven't talked to Keely yet but YOLO~

1. Anyone not thinking we should be werewolf hunting right now needs to stop that.

2. This kill makes me feel feelings. A) Orci was a relatively safe kill, and that means scum were either confident (likely) or thought he was the seer (less likely). People I think should feel confident if they're scum right now are farside, Acryon, Lyserg, and West. B) Orci is not from our dumb other site, which feels like a more likely kill from one of Lyserg, Metal, Aristophanes, West, or Young, as they'd be more uncomfortable killing someone that points to them. C) Orci seemed pretty townie from what I remember, which would mean whoever this werewolf is likely is hunting for town rather than the other scumteam. In my head I've got the idea that newer players would more likely want to see the other scumteam dead before town considering how much more likely the standard mafia team are to win if they survive for very long. This is the part I'm least confident on, but it points to farside, Lyserg, West, Acryon, and Young.

The only people common to all three of my dumb NKA things are Lyserg and West. Lyserg is more townie in my brain, so I'm gonna say West is the most likely person to make this kill.

3. I agree that Seer should look at Acryon, not really seeing Young. Acryon's switch from Ari to Lal right at the beginning of that wagon pretty much cleared him in my books unless the seer tells me otherwise.

4. Not gonna vote until Keely is around

- Johnny

[Ginko]

Lol at that nightkill.
Need to reread D1 again with flips in mind, but I've been putting it off/I'm putting off school right now to make posts in mafia q.q

Promise I won't be missing much longer.
-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

Why do you think werewolves would be confident at this point? Didn't half of their team just die?

Because that kill is a confident one. If they thought town was onto them or that they were in any danger, they wouldn't have killed someone who hadn't talked for days and then up and got replaced during the night.

The idea that D2 people would be less likely to kill D2 people is silly.

You're silly.

Enough people had listed orci as being scummy that scum trying to kill other scum still could've been the case here.

Yes, it could have. I'm saying I think it's less likely.

3. I agree that Seer should look at

Acryon not really seeing Young

. Acryon's switch from Ari to Lal right at the beginning of that wagon pretty much cleared him in my books unless the seer tells me otherwise.
- Johnny

Did you accidentally switch the names around in that first sentence? This bit isn't making much sense, taken straight.

My thought process is, if Acryon just happens to have amazing foresight and is actually the other werewolf, there is no way I'm voting him unless a seer tells me otherwise. Young I could see us lynching.

We're having some internal discussions about voting right now. Keely wants a reread and I kinda wanna vote either West or Vyse, so I'll just hold off for a while

p-edit: way ahead of you

[Ginko]

Your vote pivot at the beginning of today is weird farside. splain it.

[Ginko]

SIGNED JOHNNY

[Ginko]

Because I feel town would benefit from a basically nightless game from now on

[Ginko]

#Johnnypost

[Ginko]

I mean that just looks like settling. I'll vote a mafia if it gets down to it but I don't think it's an argument that wolf death would be the best thing for the town right now.

West or Vyse could be Wolfy (more likely that than regular scum, but nothing's particularly non-regular scum about them so whatever.)

I'm confident that farside and Lyserg are town, Ari to a lesser extent as well. Everyone else

could

be standard scum with front runners being Acryon, West, Vyse and maybe a douse of Young if he ever starts posting.

*Reminder to myself to check if prawneater's done literally anything.

[Ginko]

you know who said it damn it

[Ginko]

VOTE: Ginko

Longish post when I wake up. zzz

How's that going?
This whole *voting for someone, not really explaining it and then leaving*-thing is an interesting new strategy.
Lack of any kind of analysis on your end of Lalendra and then coming in with another naked vote today is.. ridiculously underwhelming. Yeah, I know, you get annoyed at people having expectations from your play, but I don't think it should be too much to ask for you to explain your votes in a game of mafia.
Zzzzz.
Why did you think Lalendra was worth a vote when you made your's?
What do you make of West/Acryon/farside?

My choice of Metal was because I had a slight ping on him

What was it exactly that pinged you on him?

Also, Farside (I believe), you mentioned that Metal and Lal likely weren't scummates as Lal wasn't attacking Metal as she had noted doing in previous games. They've yet to be of the same alignment. She will generally attack him regardless. So I think it's more indicative of them possibly being scummates than not.

You made a huge deal out of people going after werewolves on D1, why has your stance on that changed all of a sudden? You were treating them like third party and now you're not. Why?

Metal again, why would it matter what timezone Honeybee is in??
There is a literal countsown timer counting to the end of the phase. It tells you exactly how much time is left, regardless of timezone. Why was that so hard to figure out?

What in the world is this point man? :/ Are you calling him scum for not figuring out where the countdown timer was? Lol?

Also, you never fully got back at me about the "not wolf" people thing P=

If it makes you feel better, I'm not wolf either c: bark bark.

@farside

, given that D1 lynch puts an insane amount of pressure on last wolf if it lands on their only scummate, I think that the incentive to defend your scumpartner might be higher than it normally be. Do you agree or disagree? Also, why did Ari's last post make you feel better about him? >.< I feel like a pariah constantly on the outside of the popular opinion on things. q.q

Just curious, who all's played with TTH before?

Kind of? We've never been alive at the same time in a game together.

Reading up on the West/Lal interactions that farside was talking about sometime today after homework/school things.
West/Young seem best candidates for wolf to me at the moment.
Ari is pinging me. Need to read up on Acryon again, but I remember feeling slightly better about him.
Someone should pitch me Metalcase so I have more homework.

-Cheetohreesix

[Ginko]

Let's look at this from a different pov for a moment. I don't see ari and lal as scum together. I don't see anyone who has. Metal as I said doesn't look like scum with lal. If metal is mafia what does ari gain from pushing metal scum?

Why wouldn't they want to hypothetically bus as scummates in this kind of position? o.o I don't think I understand what you're getting at here.
I'm also still leaning that Metal's town, and Aristo jumping on him here feels opportunistic to me in a self-preservation kind of manner.

Also when I read ari's last post it reads very derpy.

How does this not also describe all of the posts you were scumreading him for before?

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

No, I didn't ignore the case you made for Ari on D1. I asked why it would be valid to say Ari is leaning town for derpiness when a lot of his play on D1 also strikes me as being derpy and you didn't acknowledge it then at the time.

I associate scumMetal with a lot of on the surface play. His arguments for his reads strike me as being meatier here than they have in what I remember about his scum game and that strikes me as genuine town thought process.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

Just so I'm clear, I'm not saying I think it's weird that you didn't excuse what you saw as scummy play on D1 as being scummy, I just think it's really weird that this is the first time that you're calling Ari's posts derpy and that it strikes you as townie here rather than null.

-Cheetory6

[Ginko]

VLA
-Cheet

[Ginko]

I'm really sorry to be a piece of shit and do this, but I don't have the energy to tackle this game right now.

I really love this playerlist, it's just that this is just too dense for me to handle with so much going on IRL. Johnny's also kind of awol and told me he's not really feeling it either so I think you should just replace the entire slot Honey. Sorry everyone q.q

-Cheetory6