—Mini 1635— Curse of the Werewolves: Game Over

[Iecerint]

VOTE: Pine

I had to clarify something with the mod before I was comfortable posting. The flavor had thrown me off a little. This is not a crumb for anything.

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I don't think the younguns know what zwet means, bud.

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Mollie played a lot of games in 2013 and 2014 and was previously known for being extremely abrasive, apparently due to the way that they play mafia on the site she comes from. She's mellowed out a bit.

She's all grown up.

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Zwet was a player who was really active like 2008-2011 who was famous for signing up for a gazillion games at a time and never playing any of them to what was considered an acceptable standard. Literally every game skipped right to "policy lynch zwet or not" discussion right after RVS. It was so standard that there was like a shifting scum meta of whether to support or white knight the zwet policy lynch discussion.

Then the legend left us.

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Andy, do you think I'm scum because of my first, or one of my other posts?

I had no idea that ABR liked me back tbh. Mainly I remember having a hero-crush on him back when I was just starting. I remember reading Kinetic's Wheel of Time when I first found the site before even registering this account. :p

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You're presuming I have a crush on you for your conciliatory personality.

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Right, but could you answer the question with that word substitution? I want to evaluate where you are coming from.

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I personally found my subsequent posts kinda scummy because I can be helpful as either alignment if it's just giving facts about someone. I understand for the first post, though.

Thanks.

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His townread should be pretty simple to understand, regardless of whether you personally find it persuasive.

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Understand isn't exactly the word maybe. I understand it, but I don't think that explaining something should be a town read.

I think the main reason is the flavor confusion. The flavor is written from the perspective of an uninformed scum majority, which made me wonder if I had misunderstood my alignment. In this game, the Food are the town, and I am Food. Also, several people on page 1 seemed to be posting from the perspective of scum, which made me question still-further if I was actually some kind of Food faction that was other than town. The Mod confirmed that it was just a different approach to flavor and Food was town.

The other stuff I think he mainly took as being insufficient to refute that. Idk. I agree with you that explaining stuff isn't really a town thing. I would find it scummy if I weren't me, cuz it's a way to contribute without really scumhunting.

[Iecerint]

That's not a trust tell. It's just self-meta. Tunneling is subjective, anyway.

Farside is a pretty strong player I think, so I am not interested in lynching her on the grounds that she somehow has an uncomfortable playstyle.

[Iecerint]

Well, you voted her in 122 and your main reasoning for voting her was 121, which is the post where she mocked FourTrouble for finding me town (echoing others) and finding ABR town (less echo-y, so this point I don't see as particularly vapid really).

So I can see that post as being pretty consistent with the previous (admittedly funky) focus on FT's lack of engagement with the game.

126 is odd, though. Not sure why she jumped in like that when she could've just waited for you to say something. It's a pretty awkward interaction now that I have been directed to look at it.

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I feel like he would have transitioned to that maybe had we not called attention to it. Maybe. Like Schrodinger's Cat.

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I think she was in a game with me somewhat recently where she got really angry about something pretty trivial on like D2/D3 and had to replace out. Maybe she has a dark side or something. I can imagine someone who saw that side of her for whatever reason got a unique perspective on her.

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FWIW in the other game it looks like farside replaced into the game late and caught up, but here she's playing from the beginning. Her vibe is going to be a little different in each circumstance.

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What on earth? AP is in this game?

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Ah, I see.

Update the members of the Jingle hydra in the OP for me, please.

[Iecerint]

If someone could go ahead and tell me who is scum, who is town, and who is lynchbait I should be voting that'd be great. If not, I hate you all and you're meanyfaces.

Also of note: Is this a closed/open/semiopen setup?

~AngryPidgeon

So far the main content in this thread can be summarized with "generational conflict." Nothing has really led me to want to change my initial vote on Pine.

This is closed.

[Iecerint]

AP literally just signed one of your posts.

What I am referring to will be obvious if you read the thread.

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Pine, do you actually have any basis for the idea that ABR is nice when he's scum, or is it more like "unusual ABR, so scum"?

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Mollie/TTH, I think Flame is on me basically as RVS (or at least he argued that some stuff I did wasn't scummy).

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I was just responding to one of you "asking Flame to develop his scumread on me," or some kind of language like that.

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Yeah, that's the one. I took that comment as a null indicator. I kinda agreed with him about the town read thing, so that part hasnt pinged anything for me.

Doesn't hurt to have him chat.

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A good man is hard to find.

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Flames come talk about me please.

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Implication would be that they are scum together and the entire interaction is artificial.

Not worth going on D1, but kinda funky.

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Yay.

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If your trigger is other than N1, you should claim "other than N1" to avoid D2 drama though.

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It's kinda too bad. I wanted to play with ABR.

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If your trigger is other than N1, you should claim "other than N1" to avoid D2 drama though.

I am not saying you have to claim "N1," but you're definitely being the D2 lynch if ABR is town and you're still alive tomorrow.

Please clarify that you saw this and understand.

[Iecerint]

What are you going to do after I flip town? Use your second daycop?

According to the wiki, suicidal modifier currently normatively means that the player passively dies N1.

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The fact that you saw my post is enough.

I wanted to avoid the "omg I did not see your post and didn't think to clarify funny that ABR was town maybe I am insane!" D2 shenanigans.

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There is no reason why my posts should make you think I am scum. If you have a real guilty on ABR, they should not give you any stress.

For example, if I WERE scum with ABR, I would have no reason to risk being perceived to be soft-defending him in this way.

Basically the only way your reaction to my posts makes sense to me is if you are fakeclaiming town looking for "reactions." If that ends up being the case, please warn me the next time we are about to be in a game together.

[Iecerint]

For clarity: I am inclined to lynch ABR in the event that Pine does not renege. But Pine is not thinking very clearly if he is actually playing straightforwardly.

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town plz. <_<

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The tweaky reactions from Iec are curiously forced

I like to give everyone the "not an idiot" benefit of the doubt, unless I'm playing with someone like Katsuki and they've already violated that trust too many times.

I find it curious mainly that no one else posted anything, but it's impossible to interpret it because "no one" is a lot of people.

[Iecerint]

The holidays muck things up a little tbh.

Normally today would be the point of no further excuse, but my guess (???) is that people refrained from posting because they wanted to see if someone else would post something incriminating, having inferred that Pine was full of shit. And scum were either awk'd out by the claim due to its truthiness (-> ABRscum), or they came to the same "this is bullshit" conclusion and decided to not post as long as no one else really was (-> ABRtown). But that just kinda covers the universe of possibilities, so I don't think it's super informative.

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I will state it a different way for you.

The way that you assess if someone has reads is to read their posts. No one has posted due to (I infer) holidays +/- Pine stuff. Hence, I do not think that that particular angle is very relevant or useful right now, because you can't assess anything.

Generally speaking, it's suspicious to not have reads because it suggests you don't see the game as a puzzle, which can happen due to knowing the puzzle's answer already.

You should probably be more specific if you have something specific in mind.

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That is kinda funky, had not really taken note of it.

The rest of his post kinda suggests a read though, so maybe he is kinda fibbing about no reads and it's intended to make the question seem more innocuous or something.

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Andy, why did you ask me that the way you did?

[Iecerint]

Because I wanted to see if you thought

it

was scummy before they were scummy. There's no point in pursuing a person if the act is not suspect.

It just came to me to ask it of you, so I complied.

Seems kinda dumb to ignore the player and context IMO.

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From what I can tell, the main thing to glean from my interaction with Pine I think is that I am probably town if ABR is scum.

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Pine obviously doesn't intend his claim to be taken seriously.

I want to hear from others before I evaluate changing my vote.

[Iecerint]

Unvote
Vote Iecerint

So you're only probably Town? Gotcha

Oh dear lord. Who do you think I am?

From a 3rd party point of view, yes, there's nothing absolute that can be gleaned from your silly antics. That's why they were silly. The best that can be said is that you ended it within 24 hours.

The reason for what I said (i.e., if [ABRscum] -> [Iectown]) is that my pattern of wanting to lynch ABR while setting up a lynch on Pine given ABR-town while expressing skepticism of Pine makes no sense if ABR and I are scum together (unless you think I was trying to play around this, which would be a silly thing to think).

I don't want to play mafia for you, but I'll drag you through the goalposts if I have to.

[Iecerint]

ABR, of all people, following that, especially after WhoHydra's previous vote, is particularly ludicrous.

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If you think that me saying that people should judge me probably town based on a specific interaction is a scumslip because it wasn't stated in absolutes, you definitely need people to talk down at your level.

I'm sorry to be the one to point this out to you.

[Iecerint]

I don't think it means he's scum really. I think what is happening in his mind right now is that he thinks he is very clever for fakeclaiming as town, so he is trying to glean anything from his behavior. But he doesn't have a ton of space to work with because so few people posted in the interim.

IMO, if anything, the most awkward post-Pine post was Andy's. Nothing is actually gained for the town by making clear that Pine's ability is false (unless you thought he intended to draw it out for long enough to be a dumb distraction, which fair enough maybe). This is a little hypocritical coming from me because I eventually did kind of point out that he had to be bullshit (because he had already erred in thinking I was suspicious for wanting to lynch him if ABR-scum, which would only happen if he was fakeclaiming), but I at least tried to play along.

[Iecerint]

The only real Pine-scum aspect to it is that his vote followed Who's and the actual precipitating factor for his vote was like. So bad.

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Clarification: wanting to lynch him if ABR-town*

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You're conflating two separate accounts I've given for your behavior: one where you're town, and one where you're scum.

That's a type of confusion I'd be more likely to expect from Pine-town, though.

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Unvote; Vote: Andrius

Other players I am considering include Flames and ABR. I'm not voting Flames because he hasn't piped in really and I'm not voting ABR mainly because I was excited that he was in this game. Who-hydra I will admit to skimming a bit because the quote business totally throws me off and makes it even harder to read them, so it never feels like I'm learning anything about that slot when I read their posts.

[Iecerint]

Pine didn't say that; I did.

What do you find suspicious about my reaction?

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Its one thing to say

Daykill: Iecerint

in a game that is clearly flavor-heavy and have no indication that it is coming. There was no presence, nothing to work with. Nothing but the clear boredom. If anything, the case could be made that you are scum simply falling to easily to the 'hi daycop here XXX and YYY are guilty', believing it, and then lynching fakeclaimer the next day. Granted, that is what you did with the 'make it clear that if ABR flips town you die'.

1. It is only possible for scum to believe it if ABR is in fact scum.
2. There is no utility to setting up the lynch chain on Pine if ABR is in fact scum.

(Silly) Caveat: It is possible that scum could intentionally play so as to feign not recognizing these motivations. This is why it is a "probably" thing and not an absolute.

[Iecerint]

Since I have already expressed some sentiments to that effect, I don't think anyone will call you crazy.

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Guys I am drubk.

Plz entertain me.

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Yeah Flames jesus post already so I can vote you. <_<

You've already stalled long enough that I'm OK with my vote on someone else so the stalling may cease if you wanna.

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Oh lord this martyr.

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There's a naiveté in Iec's posts in the wake of Pine's claim that I doubt he actually has. Pine's far and away the most trollish player here and he actually dropped some hints himself that the claim was fake (the hashtag in Post 299 for example). The lack of skepticism on Iec's part when he's otherwise proven to be fairly thoughtful stands out.

Read my posts again, I think? I'm pretty quick to express implicit and then explicit skepticism. I even apologized for having done so after the fact, because I find public skepticism in light of a claim like that to be anti-town, but I just couldn't help myself when Pine made inferences that made it too obvious to keep going along with it.

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Things that made me choose Andy:

1. His early townread on me seemed a little strong to me (I can follow it, but it seemed stronger than I expected), so he was already kinda on my mind.
2. His motive in asking for my read on PeregrineV indirectly is really unclear, especially in light of an apparent townread on me. Why ask his townread in particular? Why ask it of his townread indirectly?
3a. His take on my post-Pine posts would seem pretty non-default given a town read of me, but makes some sense if it's a "following the crowd"-derived take on the situation.
3b. His take on the same posts would seem to imply that I was town anyway (this one could just be a logic error, but in light of the rest it starts to fit a pattern).

Farside had independent reasons I think, but she echoed point 2. It feels like ABR is kind of sheeping me (e.g., Pine after I appeared to be attacking him rhetorically, then this), which feels kinda unfamiliar, but I guess he's at least pretty non-prejudicial in who he follows me onto.

[Iecerint]

ABR's not a bad vote really.

I would be interested in elaborations on Andy being town, though. The best one I can come up with is that ABR didn't really hesitate to vote him.

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My point is that it is not a very good one. I think Andy is scummy and am voting him.

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There is not much there, and what's there ain't great.

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In ABRtownworld, I don't think Who and Southern Gothic are both scum. At most one of them is scum. Too brazen and too quick for scumfriends IMO.

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They may also just be correct tbf. That's why I want to get a sense of what's motivating their perspective.

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Also I forgot that PV was even in this game.

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Andy-PV does make some sense because Andy is probably more likely to pick up on his scumfriend making a perceived "slip" like saying he's read and doesn't have reads.

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I was actually really excited when I misread your scumlist as having Southern Gothic and All Is Who as the either/or because I thought it meant you were town and I could feel more secure in Andy, but then I noticed I was mistaken. D:

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(I never commented about the misread; it was just a thing that happened because I noticed SG as half of the parenthesis and I assumed the other half was the other ABR-rhetoric person.)

[Iecerint]

SG and Who are the two players who expressed rhetoric away from Andy and toward you on the previous page. You are a relatively safe target if town because multiple players have expressed suspicion.

For clarity: I do not think that exactly one of them is scum; I think that at most one of them is scum (neither or exactly one). I don't think they are both scum (regardless of your alignment) because they were synced up too blatantly.

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@Who - I am pretty suspicious of ABR and have considered what you are saying.

Could you explain Andytown?

[Iecerint]

You're suspicious of ME?

If you want, we can do this right now, Iecerint. Don't be afraid.

This isn't new information. I have mentioned it several times on the previous pages I think. That's why I'm prefacing the interactions with you with stuff like "ABRtownworld."

You've felt oddly friendly all game. I don't know what to make of it one way or the other.

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Let me explain ABR scum first, because honestly a large portion of Andy town is that the wagon on him looks like it was put together by you and a bunch of scum/five year olds.

Yeah, that was basically what I inferred would be the basis of a townread on Andy (cf., one of my posts on the previous page).

[Iecerint]

I'm voting Andy right now.

I am interested in posts from SG, Andy, and the promised elaboration from Who before I consider voting anyone else.

But seriously ABR, if you're sheeping me this closely, you'd think you'd read my posts a little more carefully. Like, in my Andy votepost:

Unvote; Vote: Andrius

Other players I am considering include Flames and ABR. I'm not voting Flames because he hasn't piped in really and I'm not voting ABR mainly because I was excited that he was in this game. Who-hydra I will admit to skimming a bit because the quote business totally throws me off and makes it even harder to read them, so it never feels like I'm learning anything about that slot when I read their posts.

And some other places, etc.

Pedit: And that's a wallpost.

[Iecerint]

@ Who - I think you might be missing what I am talking about in 3b, which might also be relevant to your take on 3a:

Its one thing to say

Daykill: Iecerint

in a game that is clearly flavor-heavy and have no indication that it is coming. There was no presence, nothing to work with. Nothing but the clear boredom. If anything, the case could be made that you are scum simply falling to easily to the 'hi daycop here XXX and YYY are guilty', believing it, and then lynching fakeclaimer the next day. Granted, that is what you did with the 'make it clear that if ABR flips town you die'.

1. It is only possible for scum to believe it if ABR is in fact scum.
2. There is no utility to setting up the lynch chain on Pine if ABR is in fact scum.
(Silly) Caveat: It is possible that scum could intentionally play so as to feign not recognizing these motivations. This is why it is a "probably" thing and not an absolute.

The point is just that there's a logical error. Town can make errors like this, but I think scum who choose their position first (cf., "following the crowd") and their logic second are more likely to end up with disconnect like this.

Town sometimes also choose their position first and their support/logic second, so it's not a sure thing, but FWIW.

[Iecerint]

BTW, when ABR flips scum, Andy will be probs town as the scumchosen wagon today. Icy notsomuch, but he's seeming towny recently.

Yeah. Keep in mind the brief Pine vote from him too though. I'm not sold on how to take it either way.

[Iecerint]

Other than that I found it sketchy. <_<

It seemed like he perceived that I would win the rhetoric competition with Pine and was inferring that I was scumreading Pine and was hence voting him along with me without critically assessing whether events had made Pine scummy.

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I am also weirded out that he somehow didn't read my posts carefully enough to recognize the half-dozen times I had pointed out that I suspected him.

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But now the pressure is reduced on Andy and you ruined it.

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Meh whatever.

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Thanks, mollie.

[Iecerint]

Re: ABR reasons, if you have a townread on me, you have probably read enough of my posts to pick up on my concern that ABR was strongly townreading me and engaging with me while also somehow not reading closely enough to understand that I was a bit suspicious of him at best.

[Iecerint]

Yeah, his case does read like it is intended to support his perspective rather than that it motivated his perspective. Sometimes town does that too, though.

It's scummy because if you trust me enough to sheep me and you're town, you are probably reading me closely enough to know something I've said multiple times. Case in point is the Andrius votepost itself.

[Iecerint]

Clarification: second sentence there is about your question about why it is scummy for ABR to not understand that I was scumreading him.

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My style is more to list all the possibilities and wallow in inaction. ^_^

But I can at least try to rule some things out!

[Iecerint]

I'll second that the last few pages are closer to the standard ABR persona.

[Iecerint]

It has a pretty small effect on my read on him, though, because the fact that everyone begged him for it could easily account for it.

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It has a pretty small effect on my read on him, though, because the fact that everyone begged him for it could easily account for it.

If he can easily replicate his normal meta, why would an intentional departure from that meta mean he's scum?

I never made that claim. I was the one who pointed out (to Pine I think) that different doesn't necessarily imply scum-aligned.

[Iecerint]

Ok just skimmed Andrius's ISO. Why is he wagoned? Who is/was the counter wagon and why?

Read my posts and I think farside has a few.

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Nvm Who did it for you

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If you don't like self-consciousness from me, you're gonna have a bad time.

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I think Who gets easier to read in later posts FWIW.

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If [AndyTown], the way that he asked me about Peregrine suggested to me that he thought I might be scum with Peregrine and was trying to like "catch" me in a contradiction with respect to PereV. Like, maybe he thought I would say "yes, reading and not knowing the scum is scummy" and then he would say "aha so you must think PereV is scummy!" and evaluate my reaction.

But, similar to your comments about there being some gaps in the thought process in other areas, it's not clear why he would think I was scum leading up to that really.

I guess this logictrain could potentially move into being suspicious of me post-Pine, if I have the chronology right. So that's something.

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I was only in one scum game during 2014, which was Teen Wolf Season 1.

Before that, I was in A Memory of Light.

My wiki is up-to-date on all completed games.

[Iecerint]

1. It is only possible for scum to believe it if ABR is in fact scum.

Not true.
Fakeclaiming Townie claims Cop and fakes a Guilty on another townie. Scum obviously go along with it, as its a free lynch. Townie dies.
Next day, they lynch the Fakeclaiming Townie who lied. Townie dead.
Two lynches under their belts with little to no work involved besides a 'Follow the Cop' routine, which, if the claim is credible and believeable, all player would be right to do. Town would not go against a credible investigation, and scum would do likewise (barring gambits!) merely to appear town.

That's my argument - that scum would instantly jump on a fake guilty on town because it nets them townpoints, lets them blend in with the mass of Follow the Cop, and then that would set up them for a free lynch, as the town would (rightfully so) pursue the fakeclaiming townie.

If I ever enter a meta where town who do what you are describing, especially without intent to renege, are not immediately blacklisted by mod so as to prevent this from ever happening again, I will leave the site.

Your reaction to "2" is predicated on believing that we live in that meta (or at least believing that I could believe it), so I won't address it separately.

1. His early townread on me seemed a little strong to me (I can follow it, but it seemed stronger than I expected),

I'm known for developing reads based on one post or one thing. Not saying that they are correct, only that it is how I play.
See: Storm of Swords Mafia

OK. This was listed mostly because this is what led me to read your subsequent posts in a more critical light than I might otherwise had done.

2. His motive in asking for my read on PeregrineV indirectly is really unclear, especially in light of an apparent townread on me. Why ask his townread in particular? Why ask it of his townread indirectly?

I wanted to know what you thought without immediately leading into WHAT DO YOU THINK OF PEREGRINE FOR DOING THIS HUH?
You were the (one of?) the only player around.
You were a town-read.

Me being the only one around makes some sense.

ABR's not a bad vote really.

I would be interested in elaborations on Andy being town, though. The best one I can come up with is that ABR didn't really hesitate to vote him.

Iece, since you have more experience with ABR than I, how does ABR play as scum?
Would this be something he does as scum - bussing a buddy D1 without reasoning?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that you think ABR is scum, and his eagerness to vote me without a second thought proves we are not scum together?

I was suggesting that Who might be townreading you mainly because ABR was really comfortable voting for you, and Who was scumreading ABR. He later basically confirmed as much.

In that passage I was mainly talking about Who's scumread on ABR rather than my own, but it's true that I was wary of ABR, so your gloss is basically fine.

Andy-PV does make some sense because Andy is probably more likely to pick up on his scumfriend making a perceived "slip" like saying he's read and doesn't have reads.

I don't get what you're implying here?
The tell isn't new - it defined my read on Mikujin in Storm of Swords.

The line that you focused on from PV is not something I had noticed, but you noticed it, so there might have been a reason for that. Your information here that it's a read you like could also explain you having noticed it. My thinking was that you might have been worried that someone would notice your scumfriend's error and tried to link it to another player (i.e., hence the oddly specific decision -- explained by you above as me being the only one around around -- to ask me about it and the decision to reveal that it was PereV indirectly).

I agree with you that FourTrouble is kinda sketchy.

[Iecerint]

I don't understand what you mean by the reversal painting me as scum. Clarify?

[Iecerint]

I didn't think Andy meant Pine; I mentioned Pine only because his antics might account for a lack of content, which might create the impression that players didn't have reads.

I guess the way I took him at first was something like "Are the players who aren't pushing anything right now scummy?" And I said that Pine creating an event and the holidays creating inactivity meant that the answer was "Not really."

[Iecerint]

I think Pine's fakeclaim is maybe a good place to start if you want an "event."

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Here.

[Iecerint]

1. Suicidal is a role modifier that dies passively when a certain condition is met, typically N1. I had to check the wiki. I don't know what a desperado is.

2. He fakeclaimed. That is not his real role or result.

[Iecerint]

Depending on how much you're skimming, you may have misread my first one. The "grounds" I am referring to were what I perceived to be Konowa's, not mine.

Not sure how the other one could be construed as weird, really. Andy pointed out Peregrine's thing in a way that you'll get to more discussion on later, which is why I was directed to look at something.

[Iecerint]

Unvote; Vote: FourTrouble

[Iecerint]

I had not noticed the deadline. No more time for goofing around.

I like Andy's most recent post. FourTrouble seems content to sit on the outside and ask what player A thinks about player B ad nauseum, which I find not particularly effective at best and scummy in a sideliny way at first. I know nothing about FT's meta either way.

[Iecerint]

Andy's done a good job of explaining away his funky aspects to me, and I'm OK with sheeping mollie a little.

The only thing I'm not sold on is his explanation for the PereV roundabout query (I get him asking me, but not the manner of the asking).

This is not a request for additional clarification from him; just an indication of the only remaining funkiness. But it's enough for me to unvote him. I would just unvote without voting someone if it weren't so close to deadline I think.

[Iecerint]

Your playstyle in this game, at least insofar as I've characterized/perceived it, is something I do a lot when I'm scum, so it's hard for me to interpret it otherwise.

I think I've played a few games with you before (?), but I don't remember anything in particular about you in those games.

[Iecerint]

I'm under more scrutiny than farside I think. YMMV I guess.

I just noticed that PereV is voting FT...

[Iecerint]

Your playstyle in this game, at least insofar as I've characterized/perceived it, is something I do a lot when I'm scum, so it's hard for me to interpret it otherwise.

I think I've played a few games with you before (?), but I don't remember anything in particular about you in those games.

This was @ FT.

[Iecerint]

Who seemed town to me when the other head came in and started posting.

[Iecerint]

Victor would not be a tragic lynch.

[Iecerint]

We have a day left.

[Iecerint]

I've thought Who was town since the other head piped up.

Again, the pattern of asking X about Y over and over feels very canned and "this is my alt that can only ask X about Y over and over." Like it's almost policy lynch level for me. I find it like ideologically abhorrent. It makes it really hard for me to give you any kind of benefit of the doubt. The Gilgamesh slot similarly rubs me the wrong way, which is maybe why I don't get the "they are town" sense that some other players got from them.

[Iecerint]

It is probably time for a claim though.

Ideally, exactly one claim.

These players should vote for someone, or say that they are not going to do it:

Gilgamesh
farside
ABR
Victor/slot
Titus
PereV

[Iecerint]

OK, thanks for indicating that you think that voting for Southern Gothic 24 hours before deadline is the best use of your vote!

[Iecerint]

Wow.

[Iecerint]

Iece, what're your thoughts on Flames?

Pine, why do you suspect Iece?

Andrius, Pere's unvote was towny because of when he unvoted (right after Who put me at L-1). I think scum are more likely to leave their votes alone in that situation because there's always a potential hammer; there's no reason for scum to move their vote.

This makes sense.

[Iecerint]

Oops, I meant that the last one made sense.

I was going to make a sassy post where I listed all your "X what about Y" posts, but I decided it was childish and I stopped. And yeah it's true that you do other stuff, you've just directed it at me more than once.

I think Andy is town I guess. He's a real butthole if he's scum pulling this LYNCH ME AND YOU'LL NEVER SEE ME AGAIN YOU'D BETTER NOT LYNCH ME WHILE YOU HAVE ME routine, though.

[Iecerint]

It's not that I'm voting you ON that basis. It's that when I'm in a position where I think you COULD be scum and I don't really think anyone else is more likely to be scum in particular, I don't feel as motivated to work really hard and convince myself that it's worth shifting a wagon onto someone like Gilgamesh, or, uh, ABR I guess, or Who. I don't even know who I'd shift it to.

Consider it more like "these are factors that I recognize are coloring my attitude" rather than "these are why people should vote for FT."

[Iecerint]

I will say that Gilgamesh's behavior on the last page comes AWFULLY CLOSE to making me want to vote him and see what happens. I'd probably do it were it not that I don't think it would go anywhere because so many people thought he was town for some reason. And it's Flames's slot IIRC. <_<

[Iecerint]

Joining a lurker lynch subsequent to ABR starting it for unclear reasons is pretty scummy, so I do not really blame someone for voting you subsequent to that. I do agree with your analysis that PereV's subsequent unvote is townie if you are town, though.

Town people always vote people without knowing their alignment. That is what it means to be town.

[Iecerint]

Not this again.
How do people go 10+ pages into a game and not have reads/things of importance?

Andrius, you might want to try reading my post again without skimming. I actually did include some reads if

look very carefully

actually just read the damn thing.

Andrius dismissal seems scummier

Why?

Because exposing lies is scummy? Because exposing gambits is scummy?

I'm curious Andrius, do you have a no-lie policy?

Anyway, I'm not going to say anything that hasn't already been said to you but here goes nothing. The gambit was designed for reactions. Even so I've seen this sort of play come from town more than scum and sometimes the reactions can be valuable. There wasn't many reactions here though because you stopped it quickly. I doubt Pine was planning on us spending the whole game thinking he was some sort of 2-shot suicide cop so I don't see why exposing a gambit like this isn't scummy. Is there a town benefit to your actions I'm missing?

There was actually a pretty long time-lag between it starting and Andy doing that FWIW. People seemed to totally avoid the thread. I felt like ABR and I were the only ones here. But it was around New Year's IIRC.

[Iecerint]

Just because town are uninformed doesn't mean they should vote randomly; they can still analyze tone, behaviors, results, setup, etc. to vote with better than random chances.

You are going on an adventure with the semantics of "could," then. My vote for you is different than a random vote.

[Iecerint]

I think you are more likely to be scum than the other players who seem like they might get lynched in the next 24 hours, which basically means more likely than Andy or Who.

[Iecerint]

I would lynch Who before Andy I guess.

[Iecerint]

I think you are more likely to be scum than the other players who seem like they might get lynched in the next 24 hours, which basically means more likely than Andy or Who.

Can you be more concrete? What specific behaviors make you think Andy/Who are likely town, or me likely scum?

I think Andy accounted for basically all but one of my concerns several pages ago, roughly around the time when I unvoted him. I also think that his activity right now even after he has become basically probably not the lynch is a towntell.

WhoHyda was a null read for me that became a townread when the other head (I think) stepped in and pushed a wagon on someone who wasn't low-hanging fruit. It was like right after ABR and I had been in a little fight or something IIRC. I don't even remember who he pushed -- I think it was kinda crap IIRC -- but I thought the push was at least non-lazy. I am relatively wary of Who because it might just be that the other head is more similar to me in how they approach the game or something.

In your case, I sometimes get ideas that you might be town in the previous few pages, but you also make some claims in the previous few pages that seem like they try to ignore context to convince me of something. Earlier when Who and others stepped in and involved themselves in things to affect the outside, my perception was that you were content to mostly be an observer, my inference being that maybe you were scum who either was happy not being the center of attention and/or wasn't sure how to join discussion without becoming the center of attention. Your counerpoint (meta defense, shifting burden of proof to me) I found obnoxious because, even or I guess especially if true, it's adopting an easy-to-play-but-scummy town meta on the grounds that it will simplify your scum game, which I think is a way that the site has changed in the previous year that I dislike, which made me less willing to do work on your behalf to prove you town to me, etc.

[Iecerint]

ABR being scum crossed my mind as I was typing that out. The main townie thing though would be shifting the wagon to Victor at the one point, which could also be consistent with FT being scum I think. Not totally clear off the top of my head on which wagon was most dominant at that time.

[Iecerint]

Weren't you scum in my other game with you?

[Iecerint]

Lol. Did I mislynch you in every game?

[Iecerint]

lol Iece, look at your first post from this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=25667

lol. "blahblahblahblah pedit: vote ft because he posted" XD

[Iecerint]

I could switch to Who. Would not switch to Andy.

[Iecerint]

I believe that Pine believes it.

These days when people say "100% town" I mentally gloss that as "basically just more likely than chance" tbh.

But whatever.

[Iecerint]

I will switch to ABR, but i will only switch to Andy at the 11th hour to avoid a mislynched.

[Iecerint]

Is this the same head that I spoke to a moment ago?

[Iecerint]

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You are a hydra, correct?

[Iecerint]

Titus did the same "not getting it" schtick two other times.

[Iecerint]

How does that affect how you read his slot?

My main response to it is an emotional one in that I went out of my way to explain it to her twice and she apparently didn't feel that motivated to read my posts. <_<

Somewhat more likely scum to the extent that scum are generally less motivated to read the game (e.g., because they don't need to find scum), especially if there's no pressure on them.

[Iecerint]

I'm not sure whether I'm going to target anyone tonight, but I may, so I'm going to go ahead and crumb my hypo-target.

e: Southern Gothic (pirate mollie + telltaleheart hydra)
i: All is Who (Who + Jingle hydra)
a: PeregrineV
o: Gilgamesh King Of Heroes Flames682
n: farside22
L: Andrius
s: VictorDeAngelo
h: Albert B. Rampage
d: Iecerint
r: Nachomamma8
t: Pine
c: Titus Konowa
u: FourTrouble

The second letter of my flavor name given a flip will correspond to my target, should I choose to target anyone.

[Iecerint]

I think Pine's

fakeclaim

is maybe a good place to start if you want an "event."

There's also this post that motivated her to ask for the link. Bold added.

I guess she could have thought I meant it rhetorically.

[Iecerint]

I think Pine's

fakeclaim

is maybe a good place to start if you want an "event."

There's also this post that motivated her to ask for the link. Bold added.

I guess she could have thought I meant it rhetorically.

I thought you were being snide when calling it a fake claim. :facepalm. I almost never read when I sub in. Reactions and flips work better.

Yeah, that's what I meant by the possibility that you could have thought I meant it rhetorically.

[Iecerint]

Hey guys!

The player that I targeted N1 was consistent with my crumb, and he is confirmed town

unless a role interaction affected things. I have no reason to believe that a role interaction affected things.

I am not going to claim my target unless it becomes necessary to reduce the chance of that player being nightkilled. Please do not forget to refer back to who is confirmed town in the event of my flip.

inb4janitor

[Iecerint]

Andrius, Southern Gothic, PeregrineV, Iecerint, Pine, All is Who, VictorDeAngelo, Titus, Albert B. Rampage

^ We should lynch in there. While I suspect there's probably scum on and off the wagon, wagon analysis is more helpful.

That is everyone except for farside and Nacho.

[Iecerint]

Probably if you would participate in the game more, players would ignore you less.

[Iecerint]

You posted a ton right at deadline tho.

But mollie didn't really.

[Iecerint]

Well I guess she kind of did. Not sure why I have no recollection of the glut.

[Iecerint]

I don't care about other players ignoring me, Iecerint.

The intention of my post was mainly to call attention to the fact that you were on the outs for most of yesterday.

It's pretty dumb to complain about not being the center of attention while not being an active player.

But you did pick it up near deadline when I checked your iso subsequent to posting that, so I made some follow-up posts.

If she continued to ignore you in a meaningful way around deadline, I suppose that might be relevant.

[Iecerint]

At no point did I indicate that lurking Nacho was scum Nacho. So sensitive! D:

The only part that I found weird was that you would complain that people were ignoring you while being on the outs, in part because multiple players did post stuff to the effect of "Nacho should post more; Nacho needs to post more so I can read him" etc yesterday, so it's not true that players weren't "interacting" with you to the extent that it is possible.

Your explanation (just mollie, mollie fears my amazing skills) is fine.

[Iecerint]

Unvote; Vote: Southern Gothic

[Iecerint]

Had I not met mollie and Nacho irl, I would infer from the previous page that mollie was Nacho's alt account, devised to make him appear to be good at this game.

[Iecerint]

I like u a lot tho mollie. <3

[Iecerint]

If mollie is actually a Food Tracker, that sounds like flavor for a Werewolf who tracks Food tbf. If anything it's worse because "Food the Tracker" (possibly) sounds like Mollie can't read rather than that she is claiming her scum flavorname.

[Iecerint]

I am not great at reading mollie, but I don't particularly think she's town. That plus the claim was sufficient for me to vote her.

Why did you target Pine?

[Iecerint]

Like, I just ctrl+f Pine'd your iso and all you do is call Pine town and criticize me for going along with Pine's claim (which, not clear why that's scummy, but, etc.).

[Iecerint]

From his early troll-ish behavior and the gambit I thought it was likely he was either scum feigning it to maintain a persona or a town special who knew he could get away with it because he had a claim up his sleeve. Either would have been a beneficial outcome. We could either catch him as scum making the kill or possibly confirm what he did later in the game if he were a special. It seemed like a higher payoff than just following a lurker.

OK.

I think basically this would be a clear lie if it weren't for the possibility of hydra dissonance, but OK!

[Iecerint]

Jan 3rd and Jan 5th

I am still waiting on konowa and flames!

cos the prod dodges when THAT IS WHO WE ARE LOOKING AT leave me uninspired.

pine is town for my own reasons.

I've been marathoning all of the avatar the last airbender episodes, will report back as a new man when I finish Season 3. I think Iec is a pretty horrible vote!

And would love to know why that's the best you could manage to come up with, actually.

I'm interested in talking about this because I thought the reaction was off myself.

There's a naiveté in Iec's posts in the wake of Pine's claim that I doubt he actually has. Pine's far and away the most trollish player here and he actually dropped some hints himself that the claim was fake (the hashtag in Post 299 for example). The lack of skepticism on Iec's part when he's otherwise proven to be fairly thoughtful stands out.

Also interested in why there's an Andrius wagon. I'll have to look into that.

Mollie did into a hissy fit with Pine re: Nacho in a later post, and you ask for his basis for believing something in one post.

[Iecerint]

It has nothing to do with the word "the" for me. <_<

My flavor name is more flavorful than something like "Food Tracker," which informs my not thinking it is very likely to be the flavor name.

Mollie is a player who I do not think would be very thoughtful about how she structures her fakeclaim, so I can see her making an error related to this kind of thing.

Like, for example, my inference would be, regardless of your alignment, that mollie simply remembered that she was a tracker and claimed as much without thinking about the details. So it's the doubling-down on it being in fact the flavor name that's relatively scummy.

The addition of "the" is similarly more consistent with the "mollie careless" explanation for the error, so that's definitely not the basis of voting you.

[Iecerint]

Since Andy has already claimed to be some kind of PR, he should probably indicate whether his flavor name has the same implication as mine re: the likelihood of "Food Tracker" to mean simply "Food-aligned tracker."

That way, we won't get 5 players all soft-claiming PR by accident.

[Iecerint]

@ Andy

My flavor name is more flavorful than something like "Food Tracker," which informs my not thinking it is very likely to be the flavor name.

Since this apparently never occurred to you, I'm going to infer that your flavor obviates this as a concern.

[Iecerint]

@ Andy

My flavor name is more flavorful than something like "Food Tracker," which informs my not thinking it is very likely to be the flavor name.

Since this apparently never occurred to you, I'm going to infer that your flavor obviates this as a concern.

My role/flavor has no ambiguity, and ties in well with what Shadow Dancer has been writing.

There's no 'Tracker of Food' potential with my role. Is that what you were looking for?

My flavor name does not allude to a "classic" role ala "Tracker" "Doctor" or "Cop." For example, I am not a "Food Tracker" or a "Food Doctor" or a "Food Cop" or something similar to that structurally. Despite this, my role's function is equivalent to a "classic" role.

Therefore, I was surprised to see "Food Tracker" be the claim, as its structure is Food + [classic role name].

[Iecerint]

I also hoped he didn't give flavor with action role PMs?
But Iec hasn't said that he didn't get action flavor so no luck there.

My rolename AND my action have independent flavor. They are both "flavorful" (e.g., it's not "Food Cop" with an "Investigate" ability).

[Iecerint]

And farside's claim seems infinitely townier than SG's.

Am I just missing her claim? I can't find it. AFAICT she just claimed concordance (unnecessarily I think, but I assume she has her reasons) with Andy and re: flavor. Is that what you're referring to?

[Iecerint]

Yeah, I am aligned in not being sure about that, especially when I went so far as to direct my question specifically to on the grounds that we not get a million such softclaims. I could see the logic if she DEPARTED from our position, but meh. w/e tho.

I feel pretty OK about lynching SG.

[Iecerint]

Not really. There is still exactly one claim, plus softclaims, many of which were already soft during D1.

[Iecerint]

SG has yet to explain why she tracked pine after claiming a town read on the spot as well

No, they explained it, and they referred me back to it again when I complained that they hadn't explained it.

[Iecerint]

Here it is, alone with my commentary upon finding it:

From his early troll-ish behavior and the gambit I thought it was likely he was either scum feigning it to maintain a persona or a town special who knew he could get away with it because he had a claim up his sleeve. Either would have been a beneficial outcome. We could either catch him as scum making the kill or possibly confirm what he did later in the game if he were a special. It seemed like a higher payoff than just following a lurker.

OK.

I think basically this would be a clear lie if it weren't for the possibility of hydra dissonance, but OK!

[Iecerint]

I think it's more the Food Tracker flavor that people think has been made-up. Not the "Bloodhound/Snuggles" flavor.

[Iecerint]

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Shadowmod fakeclaim meta is probably more relevant if you have it.

[Iecerint]

Though I mean I'm like 85% sure SG will flip scum, anyway.

[Iecerint]

It looks like one of the Who heads is V/LA. I guess Who himself basically hasn't been playing the game much or something.

[Iecerint]

Let's wait for the Jingle head to return in case they want to crumb something before the day ends or whatever.

[Iecerint]

Hooray! We are champions of the fields of justice!

[Iecerint]

I suppose I'll do this again.

Note that the letters and the letter in my flavor name they refer to have been changed -- refer to the earliest post for the N1 target, and match up the associated letter correctly.

Strikethroughs indicate dead players.

e: Southern Gothic (pirate mollie + telltaleheart hydra)

o: All is Who (Who + Jingle hydra)
n: PeregrineV

o: Gilgamesh King Of Heroes Flames682

a: farside22
L: Andrius
d: VictorDeAngelo
h: Albert B. Rampage
s: Iecerint
u: Nachomamma8
c: Pine
t: Titus Konowa

r: FourTrouble

The

fourth

letter of my flavor name given a flip will correspond to my target, should I choose to target anyone.

[Iecerint]

You may want to change the letter referenced, just in case scum have figured out your target N1 via, for example, SG's Track. They will know you are targeting the same player tonight if you do not change the letter.

Probably irrelevant given the null track claim on Pine from N1, though.

[Iecerint]

I meant, it's likely that SG's track result on Pine was real and their only track ability, so it's unlikely that they have information that would make what I'm describing problematic.

[Iecerint]

Hi!

I reneged on my target last night.

Instead of my target corresponding to the letter I mentioned, my target corresponded to the 3rd player from the top (not counting crossed-out players) to have a letter that does not appear in my flavor name. I received no result.

However, I received flavor that heavily implied that I was roleblocked.

My N1 target is still alive.

Something else also happened to me, @ whoever did it.

[Iecerint]

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Titus definitely looks the scummiest from a behavioral perspective.

[Iecerint]

Icerint, I know who you targeted. I wound up blocking you. My role is a bit of a gamble. It blocks either the target or the first person who visited said target. I was hoping to block your target (which I can say if you think I'm bluffing), or the target. I was thinking no one in their right mind would actually visit the target, so this was very very bad. There's a downside, you likely cannot act tonight either. It's very powerful but risky.

The target does match my flavor.

@Andrius, how convienent, you look as if you went digging for that the night before the flip.

So guys!

Unless I am just extraordinarily popular, Titus probably just claimed scum. My roleblock flavor involved werewolves being outside such that I was afraid to go out and take an action.

So yeah. XD

[Iecerint]

Titus definitely looks the scummiest from a behavioral perspective.

Will you join me on this quest?
I, of course, would follow you and/or Nacho, but this is my first move and Pine's last will so I feel very comfortable with this.

I haven't voted only because I think Titus is such probscum (even moreso now) that a quicklynch is likely if I vote her too soon.

[Iecerint]

Iec: would you mind doung me an odd favor please?

It depends!

If you just crumbed to me in this post, it didn't work!

[Iecerint]

Titus full claim please. The thing sticking out the most to me right now is that Titus was the only one to say that SGs flavor was congruent to hers when SG was getting votes.

She actually reneged on that when pressed for like the 3rd or 4th time.

[Iecerint]

Don't lynch her until farside does whatever she wants to do with me.

Also, make Titus claim so that they use a fakeclaim.

[Iecerint]

I'm pretty sure I know what your odd favor is, though!

It might have to do with some stuff I've mentioned in recent posts a little bit!

Does that address your favor?

[Iecerint]

Yeah, I thought it was Victor/Titus going into today, maybe PereV as an alternate possibility. Not sure what makes farside confirmed, but I agree that she is pretty unlikely to be scum.

[Iecerint]

What about if Nacho announces a lover plan and I can veto it if it includes a confirmed town?

This way, I can keep it secret if Nacho guesses who I confirmed correctly, but there's still no risk of linking up confirmed town.

I doubt roleblocking Nacho will be an issue because Titus is probably the roleblocker. Outside chance that scum have both a roleblocker and something like a busdriver, but that's all.

[Iecerint]

I'm assuming that Nacho's ability triggers after Andy dies.

[Iecerint]

Well the manual was a bit fuzzy

I completely understand!

[Iecerint]

I want to wait to hear Nacho's perspective.

[Iecerint]

OK I did.

[Iecerint]

Nope! Nice try.

Waiting on Nacho. Farside was gonna do something tomorrow (Friday).

[Iecerint]

Yeah but if Iecerint got a message saying he was intimidated by wolves, why would Titus then claim the RB on him? That's bad play. I don't see the mod not warning the werewolves of what the action will imply to whoever is being RB'd.

I can see Titus as being someone who would not confirm the flavor of her roleblock and instead try to play in a flavor-blind way.

[Iecerint]

Yeah but if Iecerint got a message saying he was intimidated by wolves, why would Titus then claim the RB on him? That's bad play. I don't see the mod not warning the werewolves of what the action will imply to whoever is being RB'd.

It's the same kind of question as "Why would Mollie have a terrible fakeclaim for no reason?"

The reason was that Mollie was scum. Same deal today.

[Iecerint]

Holy fuck. Titus is town?

How is that possible? O.O

[Iecerint]

Or you're saying you guys had 4 scum?

[Iecerint]

Ah, "3 weakest scum." So Titus is scum and the 4th.

The balance is that there're 4 scum in a 13 player game.

[Iecerint]

Oh.

Why would you claim when we were about to get a mislynch?

[Iecerint]

Phooey.

[Iecerint]

You just had to buddy me aggressively. I don't think it was impossible.



I was enjoying this game.

You could have laughed at me with Titus flipped town.

[Iecerint]

I mean SG was almost as damned as Titus on flavor grounds. Not quite, though.

Titus is apparently a Werewolf whisperer townie or something. Whatever the hell that is.

[Iecerint]

I'm not going to say anything until the game is actually over on the offchance that Titus is simply a super special Godfather, Victor is town, and you're trying to delay Titus's lynch because her nightgame is totally crucial to victory.

Partially because I don't want to believe that you would actually do this instead of replacing out if you really felt that badly about the game. <_<

[Iecerint]

My N1 action should be pretty obvious I think. I took some other steps to make it slightly less obvious than it might otherwise be.

I guess you'll find out soon either way!

[Iecerint]

I had a hide, a weak follow, a watch, and a secret message, all one-shot. I hid behind Who N1.

I thought Mollie would figure this one because I stole the format from Reckoning 3, where it was used in the context of a Hude, or at least to make it look like a Hide.

I tried to imply I would keep using a Hide so that scum wouldn't try to target me after N1.

[Iecerint]

I am really intrigued by my werewolf roleblock flavor.