Open 587 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[Sup-Zero]

VOTE: ABR

Quickly, murder him before he goes on a rampage.

[Sup-Zero]

That's so awful that I might circuitously townread you for it.

[Sup-Zero]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Astinus

Better vote atm.

[Sup-Zero]

thank you other head

[Sup-Zero]

Also, hi.

hi lets vote together

[Sup-Zero]

Vote sup zero

u suk

[Sup-Zero]

We have thoughts but we won't share until later.

Mostly until I'm off work.

-shinobi

[Sup-Zero]

The "better vote" in 10 made no sense. I'd like to hear Sup-Zero's explanation for that.

I told my other head about my experience with Astinus and suggested that we wagon her.

[Sup-Zero]

I'm just going to cling to Newbie Syndrome as my excuse for not posting.

As for leads, in my eyes, too early to tell. I'm still trying to sort our grudge votes from real votes. Though, with more observation, that point may become moot.

Which votes are you most interested in

[Sup-Zero]

Xay is going to be V/LAish until Friday. I'll be around as much as I can in the meantime.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sup Zero

Unexplained vote on Astinus based on some previous game?
Claimed to have some thoughts to share, but never did.


I'm also not very happy with archaebob's naked vote and fluffy posts.

Haven't had the opportunity to talk to Xay much because his schooling is interfering with things. I'll do what I can but I'm going out of my way to not confuse people with having two players posting different thoughts on the same hydra and whatnot.

I don't really have an issue with Astinus personally, Xay just told me she would be a good player to look at in the early goings and whatnot. I unvoted ABR because I liked his tone but that's about it, and that's one of the things I love to look for in the early goings of the game. So Astinus is mostly better due to ABR being a slight townread at this point in time.

Any other concerns?

-Shinobi

[Sup-Zero]

I can see the validity in what texcat is saying but I want to see what she thinks of my more recent posts before giving some kind of read on her. I'd also like to consult Xay but idk if I'll actually get his opinion on anything until later on.

This is the best vote you could come up with?

Are you doing something better with yours?

This is the best vote you could come up with?

Are you doing something better with yours?

Touche...I guess that is one way to look at it.

Is something going to happen here or what?

Arch, what exactly are you trying to accomplish with your vote? What are you trying to get out of vettrock by doing so? It seems somewhat unprompted, and while vet has been around to respond, you haven't really done anything with it. Should I be expecting some sort of follow up or explanation at the very least?

[Sup-Zero]

Nah, I can just tell you now.

The conclusion I came to in my conversation with Xay is that Astinus is unorthodox: that is, she doesn't play an easily-readable style that's hugely obvious and beneficial to one side. I wouldn't even consider it a "serious" vote in any regard: that's just kind of where I felt like voting at the time based on what little time I spent analyzing and playing the game thus far.

[Sup-Zero]

That's not necessarily my issue, per se. If you have nothing behind your vote, why not go find better reasons to vote someone? Arch seems to be content voting you for doing nothing, but isn't prodding you along to get information or try and gauge how you feel about the rest of the game at large despite you being around to answer questions and respond to pressure.

Or should I take it that I should sheep him and leave?

[Sup-Zero]

^ Above aimed at vettrock, naturally.

@Astinus: share your reads plx? I see one on Zymf but that's about it, though I see you alluding to other reads you might have. Might make it easier for us to read you, ftr.

[Sup-Zero]

So uh, VOTE: ABR
His play so far isn't town.

Why?

So you think Teapot is pushing a mislynch, if you believe early lurkers are town.

Early lurkers tend towards town, is not the same a saying early lurkers ARE town. I could very well be a mislynch, but I don't think we are at that point yet.

All of your opinions (and posts, for that matter) feel really safe and reserved so far.

What do you think of the current wagons?

I agree. I asked him to provide more content and he seems perfectly happy being useless.

[Sup-Zero]

I'm down.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: vettrock

[Sup-Zero]

I still want Teapot to elaborate on her ABR vote as well, because that looks like it came out of the ether and I still want an explanation.

But vettrock has been on my radar for a while and I'm perfectly happy to sheep this case.

[Sup-Zero]

That has to be the scummiest wall I've ever seen. I've seen some scummy walls, but that one takes the cake.

We can lynch texcat after vettrock.

[Sup-Zero]

VOTE: Vettrock
Morgan is town, unless he's scum with ABR and is panicking after a bus. I won't consider that right now though.
The ABR wagon went way too fast.

(I'm going away for a few days.)

You wanted to pressure!wagon ABR, and now suddenly the wagon is "too fast"? Your wagon hopping is what's too fast.

Someone remind me why we're not lynching this.

Agreed.

I still don't know why Teapot wanted to vote ABR in the first place. He claimed that his play "wasn't town" but never bothered to follow up on that or explain it, either.

[Sup-Zero]

@slimer: The issue I had with that wall was that texcat found both Teapot and vettrock scummy, while finding almost every other player in the game suspicious for faulty reasons and voting someone who isn't even playing. (Sup only posted after I called him out, other people are lurking, etc)

Texcat has shown no real interest in sifting through any of the people she's talking about. I have yet to see her reads on any of these players and it looks like someone pushing mafia objectives and casting doubt across as many players as possible.

[Sup-Zero]

Morgan where do you stand on texcat? I think she's a pretty reliable scum hit but I noticed that you let her go. What's up?

[Sup-Zero]

So by that logic you're going to sheep someone else in their vaguely put scum reads and set aside your own, more thought out ones, because.... LOGIC!

Arch's case is anything but vague. Did you read it? It's kind of good and I felt the same way.

[Sup-Zero]

My biggest issue right now is that one of my top townreads left both texcat and vettrock alone, so I'm thinking that I missed something somewhere along the way since that's where my focus is at.

[Sup-Zero]

Forgot to add, the speed of the vettrock wagon made me ponder.

What exactly are you expecting though? He has a case on him, so it's not like it's some flashwagon with nothing behind him.

[Sup-Zero]

Fair enough, I suppose.
UNVOTE:

[Sup-Zero]

Hi

Ive been following loosely. SupZero, why u so scuzzy?

Anywho, Ill reread w/interest when Im not on a phone.

Scuzzy?

@Arch: That is a giant wall.

[Sup-Zero]

Arch if you think that Teapot is bussing ABR then why bother switching at all?

Your point on daytalk seems like a bit of a stretch.

[Sup-Zero]

I am back from the dead. Does anyone have any specific questioning they would like to do about me?

Do something?

[Sup-Zero]

Yo shin, what's that scummy wall you were talking about?

[Sup-Zero]

Yo shin, what's that scummy wall you were talking about?

Texcat's wall. She had every single person as suspicious and agreed with both major cases, and it seemed like she had every single player in the game as a suspect.

That was a really long time ago and it has been thoroughly addressed.

[Sup-Zero]

Right now, only vettrock would be safe from my hypothetical vig kill. Everyone else is fair game.

You have no other townreads on anyone or is this only in regards to the people on your wagon?

[Sup-Zero]

Ftr I think the ABR wagon is kind of lame and based on hypotheticals. I think that the points brought up,

especially

the ones in regards to him being "bored" or whatever, are exceedingly thing.

If I voted ABR, it would only be so he could shoot one of the people fencesitting between him/Teapot because I sincerely doubt that both wagons are scum, and the people who are insinuating that they are are the scummiest players thus far.

[Sup-Zero]

Ftr I think the ABR wagon is kind of lame and based on hypotheticals. I think that the points brought up,

especially

the ones in regards to him being "bored" or whatever, are exceedingly thin.

If I voted ABR, it would only be so he could shoot one of the people fencesitting between him/Teapot because I sincerely doubt that both wagons are scum, and the people who are insinuating that they are are the scummiest players thus far.

Ebwop.

If I had to vote between the wagons right now, I'd vote Teapot over ABR unless giving Albert the vengeshot is our goal here, which isn't actually that bad of a plan imo.

[Sup-Zero]

1) You answered your own question.
2) Because the likelihood of the two leading wagons being totally willing to lynch into themselves while being on the same scumteam is really asinine.

[Sup-Zero]

I wouldn't mind if arch got shot, ftr.

[Sup-Zero]

@Sup-Zero, I get the impression that you're not committed to lynching either Albert or Teapot. But we have to lynch someone. If you'd like more options, why aren't you doing anything about it?

I agree with vettrock, the vengekill is supposed to compensate for a mistake (I think it's a little underestimated for reasons I can explain later.)
And that TheCow is a problem, though I don't have a scumread there.

I'd lynch Teapot over Albert.

I'd say Molla and archaebob are scummy for insinuating that both wagons are scum together because it's kind of a lame notion.

As for not doing anything, score one for laziness.

[Sup-Zero]

@Vettrock: why do you have archaebob as town?

[Sup-Zero]

Nah, you're right, I herpaderped.

Mb.

Just archaebob then.

[Sup-Zero]

Molla who are your townreads?

[Sup-Zero]

I was just goofing but sure.

[Sup-Zero]

I'd like to mention that BBmolla has personal reasons for voting me due to a bitterness he has never let go of.

Explain?

[Sup-Zero]

Doing something else right now thanks.

[Sup-Zero]

TheCow and slimer need to place votes.

@ Albert -

The self-vote was really bad, dude. Vettrock is spot on with his "muddying the waters" point. There is absolutely no game theoretic reason why you would want to be lynched if you are town. The vig kill is at best an imperfect remedy to a mislynch - it's not something to be sought after. But you already know that. You dared town to lynch you. You think your meta is unreadable and intimidating enough to make this stuff just roll off of you. You can just pull out of the nose dive at the last second, right? Just start putting in the effort at the last second and then everything will be fine. Nobody wants to lynch town-Rampage. He should get some leeway. He always does this at the start of games anyways. No way scum would be this brazen. And of course if the wagon

does

evaporate and you

do

get away with it then once the game is over it will only help to perpetuate how unreadable and intimidating your meta is, right? Pretty neat.

You're a smart guy. You've been around forever. You're good at staring down death. You've earned some leeway. But your brand of extreme independence can only work when the behavior, overall, is

town

. You can't violate all the town norms and

also

be scummy and still expect immunity. Some town norms are there for good reasons: you're not supposed to vote for lynches that you think will hit town (including your own), you aren't supposed to lurk and post no real reads and no real content, you aren't supposed to wagon hop nakedly without

any

follow up pressure or substantiation, and you aren't supposed to make statements that are deliberately and unnecessarily confusing to other players. Pick three out of four of those to ignore and maybe you can get away with it. If it's a low-powered town. If it's D1. If your naked, unexplained votes are aggressive and original enough to tell their own story. But you can't break all of the norms at once, and do

nothing

. Town has no reason to behave that way. It can't become acceptable scum play.

I think you're scum. I think you got cocky. Or bored. Or both. I think you calculated that D1 wagons derail easily enough, and that the best play was to do nothing and give as little as possible and get through it on raw bravado.

The above seem town to me.

I don't actually put any stock into what those two quotes present. I don't see how mafia can't post either of those.

[Sup-Zero]

I don't like the way you're dancing around the point I brought up. It has nothing to do with being individually scummy and you know that, but you somehow think that, despite them both being willing to lynch into each other,

I'm not even a big fan of associative reads, but the concept you're bringing up doesn't make sense. When does someone go "my scumreads are totally willing to lynch into each other and they're both totes scum," and think that that's totally okay?

[Sup-Zero]

I don't like the way you're dancing around the point I brought up. It has nothing to do with being individually scummy and you know that, but you somehow think that, despite them both being willing to lynch into each other, that they're both scum and have since put no effort into finding the townie between them.

I'm not even a big fan of associative reads, but the concept you're bringing up doesn't make sense. When does someone go "my scumreads are totally willing to lynch into each other and they're both totes scum," and think that that's totally okay?

Ebwop again, cuz I'm bad.

[Sup-Zero]

Who cares?

Pedit: I think it's a bad reason to think this on day 1 and I also think it's really convenient. There's no reason to start thinking this on day 1 when there's almost nothing at stake.

[Sup-Zero]

That's, like, worse.

That's you acknowledging the fact that your scumreads are bad in yet you put no effort into fixing them.

[Sup-Zero]

VOTE: arch

[Sup-Zero]

Why is it a waste?

[Sup-Zero]

I know that it's possible but I'm wrapping my head around the playerlist we've got and it doesn't seem realistic.

We can lynch ABR and get him to shoot arch.

[Sup-Zero]

Or maybe ABR actually flips scum somehow.

I don't think that's a realistic proposition but /shrug.

[Sup-Zero]

Where did this Hero wagon come from?

lolwtf

[Sup-Zero]

Huh.

archaebob, read the game spoilers you dummy.

Vote: Sup Zero

y

[Sup-Zero]

Phonepost. We have literally no time to pick a new lynch.

VOTE: ABR

For not explaining why Molla was personally interested in lynching you and for inexplicably voting me for no reason.

[Sup-Zero]

Why?

[Sup-Zero]

@ABR: That's a lame reason to shoot somebody. Do you really think that's a good shot for that reason?

@Hero: Where and why does that bother you?

[Sup-Zero]

I think everyone is pretty much okay with you dying. Do you disagree?

Yes, I think that's a really bad reason to shoot somebody.

@Hero: Astinus stopped playing, so I don't know what you're expecting there.

[Sup-Zero]

Well if he's town then I'm getting shot.

W/e. Kinda lame but he doesn't seem interested in finding a good one so.

[Sup-Zero]

I'd argue against my own death since you're only killing me because it's "safe" but meh.

Why vettrock or texcat?

Pedit: I think texcat could be, maybe. I doubt vettrock is scum at this point. Walk me through what you're thinking.

[Sup-Zero]

Sorry lol.

Why are you shooting vettrock?

[Sup-Zero]

Sorry.

[Sup-Zero]

Cow, prbs.

[Sup-Zero]

How am I scummy? This scumread came out of literally nowhere.

[Sup-Zero]

Astinus stopped playing the game. How can I follow up on a player that isn't doing anything?

[Sup-Zero]

Well I was town.

That was an awful shot but w/e.

[Sup-Zero]

Associative reads between unflipped players are bad and have always been bad.
Why would I shoot my own scumread?
How did I frame you? That doesn't make any sense. The daykiller would never have a wagon on them like that.

Why couldn't you say any of this beforehand? That case is atrocious.

[Sup-Zero]

good shot

[Sup-Zero]

VOTE: Herodotus

ABR you stud. I will avenge you.

[Sup-Zero]

other head approves

[Sup-Zero]

VOTE: Sup-Zero

A nudge here, a poke there.

no pls

[Sup-Zero]

My opinion of SupZero is tinged with a whole lot of OMGUS. I was originally suspicious when they said they had thoughts to share, but would do so later. Later came and went and I asked again. It wasn't until I voted that we started getting some content. Then there was Sup's vote for ABR while claiming that he thought ABR was town. It makes no sense to me. If you think that ABR is town and is such a good scum hunter that he can accurately vig kill scum on D1, then why would you want to kill him? Isn't a good scum hunter a better asset to town if he is alive?

I actually find that promising to post content later, and then not doing so, is a fairly accurate scum tell. I'd love to see some actual statistics on this. And TheCow has done it numerous times. My vote is probably going to stay on him for a while.

This person is not reading our posts.

[Sup-Zero]

Xay and I came to the conclusion that we want to lynch Hero and maybe texcat.

Hero only came up with the buddying theory when ABR started talking about shooting us, so we have no idea why he held onto it for that long. He said nothing about us aside from wanting us to do stuff, and only came up with the read as soon as our death was a possibility.

We haven't talked about texcat much.

[Sup-Zero]

The texcat thing is mostly my own read, Xay said he was just okay with it.

[Sup-Zero]

• We gave reasons for voting ABR.
  
• We gave reasons for why we didn't contribute at that point in time.
  
• Giving content after getting voted is not a scumtell.

Try again.

[Sup-Zero]

I do think you read my posts regarding these subjects and it feels like you've deliberately ignored them, hence me being annoyed.

[Sup-Zero]

@Sup: It's not a theory. I thought you were very town until your response to the votes on me. After that, I thought you were town but kept that in mind. When Albert mentioned shooting you, I figured there might be reasons to suspect you and I read you in ISO. When I noticed your actions toward Astinus I felt uncomfortable so I'm asking you about them. I had a theory that would explain it and that wouldn't implicate you, but I wanted to hear it from you.

Which is why it only came up when ABR threatened to shoot me. Sure.

Ew, a vote on me.
If anyone is wondering why I died for a bit there, well aa lot of sleeping was had. Anyway, on topic. With yesterday's situation resolved, I'm feeling Tea is kind of townier. Though, my thoughts there could just be biased by the Lynch's results, I'm not sure. Will look into that further.

As Sup goes, their posts leave me feeling awkward. Could just be the style they're in, but it is quite likely the weirdness of their placements.

Can't base your analysis on the power of imagination, I'm afraid. Got any real issues or what?

[Sup-Zero]

Sup wagon is pretty garbage just by who is pushing it.

This is literally all you ever have to say about wagons. Give me a reason to care about your posts.

Considering that most of the people pushing me are basing their suspicions on hopes and dreams, I'd say that it's not too far from the truth.

Do you disagree with his assessment or what?

[Sup-Zero]

@Sup: It's not a theory. I thought you were very town until your response to the votes on me. After that, I thought you were town but kept that in mind. When Albert mentioned shooting you, I figured there might be reasons to suspect you and I read you in ISO. When I noticed your actions toward Astinus I felt uncomfortable so I'm asking you about them. I had a theory that would explain it and that wouldn't implicate you, but I wanted to hear it from you.

Which is why it only came up when ABR threatened to shoot me. Sure.

Yes, it's exactly why I only mentioned it then. I never felt like it was worth doubting your towniness until Albert requested that the rest of us critically examine you.

Would you expect otherwise?

My current theory is that the strangeness of that can be attributed in some way to your being a hydra. As I said, though, I was hoping you would provide an explanation because I don't like to spoon-feed it to you.

Yes.

[Sup-Zero]

Sup is kinda scummy.

Evasive and terrible reasons for existing. I can't speak for Shinobi,

but his other head plays much this way as scum.

161 was him on his buddy Vettrock. Wonder why that wagon grew so fast . . .

Texcat reads in Posts 165, 190, 288, and then his backflip in 523; despite texcat having done nothing to improve anything ever.

unvote

vote: Sup

Stop being wifomy and silly and Lynch It/Them.

You're gonna have to provide evidence of the bolded instead of telling us that it's true because of nothing.

Second point is hilariously untrue and any of kind "buddying" you're pulling from that post is a complete lie.
There was no readsflip on texcat. Asking someone for their opinion on another player does not imply any kind of readsflip, especially when I came back later and said texcat was probably scum anyway.

This will be the only time I address this vote. If you continue to push this case I'm just going to assume it's a scumclaim, because that's how bad it is.

[Sup-Zero]

Good to know you've completely ignored everything else that I said.

[Sup-Zero]

So, what, you can't back up your point on meta anyway even after I pointed it out or what?

[Sup-Zero]

I know what you're saying about my supposed buddy's wagon, but it's still kind of baseless. What's the difference between town and scum voting vettrock?

Scumread on texcat is still consistent and even if it wasn't saying that "it's not consistent" without pointing to any of texcat's posts where she's doing things and saying "there's nothing there" is useless. Even then I admitted that it's my idea to scum read texcat and not xay's.

[Sup-Zero]

Sup is kinda scummy.

Evasive and terrible reasons for existing. I can't speak for Shinobi, but his other head plays much this way as scum.

161 was him on his buddy Vettrock. Wonder why that wagon grew so fast . . .

Texcat reads in Posts 165, 190, 288, and then his backflip in 523; despite texcat having done nothing to improve anything ever.

unvote

vote: Sup

Stop being wifomy and silly and Lynch It/Them.

yo pisskop

my other head's done most of the posting

so in case there's some confusion where you think it's me posting and fitting my meta to it, it ain't me

[Sup-Zero]

I'd be very very surprised if both hero and slimer were town

and I'd probably cry

my head's not as deep into this game as yours is

what's this slimer case

[Sup-Zero]

i'll echo that question to texcat too

[Sup-Zero]

yo pisskop

gimme all your reads please with cherries

[Sup-Zero]

yo pisskop

gimme all your reads please with cherries

You and Tex, chummer.
Slimer and Cow get honrable mentions.

Townreading BB, Hero, Morgan, Teapotslot

edit

Explain?

I thought you came to the conclusion that our slot was town, how did that change? How are we scum with texcat?

[Sup-Zero]

Catching up tomorrow.

[Sup-Zero]

I don't understand why slimer is L-1 aside from lurking.

[Sup-Zero]

Idk. I'll need to talk it over with Xay next time I can talk to him.

I've been kinda lazy lately so I wouldn't be surprised if I overlooked a ton of stuff.

[Sup-Zero]

Sure.

Just let me talk it over with Xay first since I'd rather not just do whatever while he isn't paying attention.

[Sup-Zero]

Excuses.

At any rate we'll have an answer either late tonight or tomorrow morning at the latest, whenever he gets on.

[Sup-Zero]

Eh. Sure.

I don't know where Xay is or what he's up to but I haven't been able to talk to him in skype at all. W/e.

[Sup-Zero]

My own list:

1) Texcat
2) Hero
3) Titus maybe?

My three is tenuous and I considered not even putting one up there. Meh. I don't know what Xay's doing or where he is but I'm just playing this game on my own for now.

[Sup-Zero]

My own list:

1) Texcat
2) Hero
3) Titus maybe?

My three is tenuous and I considered not even putting one up there. Meh. I don't know what Xay's doing or where he is but I'm just playing this game on my own for now.

echoing this

[Sup-Zero]

Vettrock and slimer3 both say "I'm scum with Morgan".
Morgan replies "no everyone I'm town, seriously".

Morgan
BBMolla
texcat

are morgan and bb independent of scumflips or is there an associative i've missed?

[Sup-Zero]

my third slot is kinda shifting between titus and pisskop atm, but i like tex/hero for last scum

[Sup-Zero]

someone explain to me green crayons scumreads?

[Sup-Zero]

VOTE: texcat

sure

[Sup-Zero]

VOTE: texcat

Unsurprising at this point.