NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[Thor665]

I think that it would be useful to have you explain your thoughts on the way Boon is presenting his case, especially considering the way Nero is tunnelblitzing him over it and, to a lesser extent, how it is prevalent in Pine's case against Boon as well.

Why do you think it would be non-useful?

[Thor665]

What 'case' is Boon presenting?

Basically any of them - though I had a lengthy discussion with him earlier today and if you look at his recent iso you'll see a swathe of self-quotes from him with his 'case' such as it exists.
You could also iso Nero for a conversation with me about how he's reacting to Boon's thought process.
Also, there is some vague sideways attack from Pine out there dinging on the way Boon weak attacked me and then 'followed me to some extent in a way I shouldn't describe as lockstep, but is apparently similar enough for Pine to call scummy - insert your own word choice here'.

Y'know, that stuff.

[Thor665]

OK well talking generally my answer to your question is: bad.

What exactly is it you expected?

I expected that answer or a lie.
What do you now make of the people pushing on him for playing in this manner?

You could also iso Nero for a conversation with me about how he's reacting to Boon's thought process.

That is a different topic entirely.

Sure - would you like to answer it now then?

Also, there is some vague sideways attack from Pine out there dinging on the way Boon weak attacked me and then 'followed me to some extent in a way I shouldn't describe as lockstep, but is apparently similar enough for Pine to call scummy - insert your own word choice here'.

Y'know, that stuff.

Again. I am unsure what this has to do with my thoughts on Boon's case logic and/or my thoughts on how he is presenting his case?

Clearly - so can you answer this utterly new conversation thread then?

[Thor665]

I don't believe in the case of Nero he is doing what you suggest; pushing on him for 'playing in this manner'

What do you think his case is? Because my understanding is opposite your own.

[Thor665]

Here is another 7 man wagon, where is the mafia?

For the guy who is talking about the 'final wagon' being worth looking at.
Look at the composition of your 7 man and my 7 man wagons and compare them to the final wagon.

I look forward to your other responses yet to come.
We've been on hold for around a week waiting for you to comment on anything.

[Thor665]

You think the Slandaar read of anyone has not been on hold while he's been posting nothings for this long?
I disagree - mine has.
I am not using it as an excuse to not comment or offer thoughts on anything else that has happened, and if you think there is anything in the game I haven't offered my view on I would be happy to do so for you.
Or is this just an empty attack post?

[Thor665]

Can you describe how his case is setup spec?
I can see the setup spec used to decide the wolf/mafia decision - but his scum case on Boon existed prior to doing any of that.

I think his case is this;

yes...no...idk. My one game with him his night actions were really bad and he just sorta gave up and stopped defending himself when he got ran up. Part of me wants to say "yes" he'd have better logic as town 'cause I think there's a load of scum motivation to push one person over another.

[Thor665]

Prod request - Nero

@TSO - poke.

[Thor665]

I just find nothing you are doing town at all - you're so concerned on winning arguments that you resort to bullshit semantics.

Plus, you're in every Wolf team I think of.

Sigh

No

Even if he is wolf, Boon is a better lynch because BULLETPROOF

It's funny how much you sound like a scum in basically every post you make. Just keep having to say that about you, I suppose.

I do consider that fairly clear Boon/Pine rule out though.
Frankly I'm trying to figure out who Boon makes partner sense as - I know some are trying to sell his push on me as weak but I think the only person he hasn't made a run at today is TSO. I don't think a TSO/Boon team makes a lot of sense. Leads me to go Mafia or town on Boon.

Who doesn't think Nero is scum?

I am of the opinion that he makes more sense as town than scum.

Mafia can't claim mafia, yes.

Which is why Thors reaction to your claim was so bad.

I know that Pine has been utterly unable to find a non-phone to explain his read.
Would you care to try?

No one has done anything to really change my opinions from my setup spec. Both Boon and TSO were pretty happy to push both Pine and Slandaar and, in fact, even changed to a Slandaar push, which tends to clear them as buddies to either.

Vote: Slandaar

L-1

I would still advocate Mafia to shoot Pine if Slandaar flips as not-Wolf.
I would advocate Wolves to shoot Boon.

[Thor665]

Actually, as far as the Mafia shot goes, I suppose it depends on who the Mafia is.
I suppose if Slandaar flips town I would mildly buy into my paranoia case of TSO/Boon - but if Mafia is one of those - well, shoot Pine. If Mafia is neither of those and/or is Pine, then maybe shoot in there? That's my vague desperation guess if my current reads are wrong.

[Thor665]

I think you somewhat misunderstand the principles of this lylo.

Why were you voting Boons and then weakening that wagon to vote me at the 11th hour?

[Thor665]

I know that Pine has been utterly unable to find a non-phone to explain his read.
Would you care to try?

If mafia claims mafia then even with a wolf lynch today mafia dies and loses the game to the nk. Mafia therefore cannot claim mafia.

I saw this coming a while back but whatever still town I expect Nero to hammer.

Okay?

How does that make me a wolf exactly?

[Thor665]

It doesn't. Everything about your D5 play says you're a wolf

I know - it says it so clearly you can't even describe how it does, even while trying to make me an emergency abort last minute wagon to Slandaar.

[Thor665]

I've explained

repeatedly

why I think you're scum. Continually saying I haven't doesn't make the case go away

Link?

Because last time I asked you said it was too much stuff to discuss.

You said that here;

Yes, I agree, 'not a wolf' is useful.
Oddly, we have relational information for Mafia that we lack for town. Crazy that.
Also, we have scummy looking people that need to be sorted as either wolf or not a wolf - again, maiking spotting the Mafia useful.

In any case - again - what was my wolf reaction? Are you intentionally ducking responding to this question?

Yep

Proving what I saw is a lot of work, and I don't Smurfing feel like it

TL;DR is that you got all frenzied, pried for a bunch of information, and didn't actually let up much despite mouthing the words about a Mafia vote being anti-Town. In other words, I felt you were getting really excited to night kill me and wrap the game up. Wolf team' stop goal today (other than staying alive) is to identify the Mafia (another reason I don't feel like indulging you regarding my Mafia reads,) and I just handed you the answer.

[Thor665]

So - as far as your 'already explained it' line - that's a lie. You recently openly admitted you were not going to explain it.
Meh.

If you are a town aligned role I pray I am never town with you. I'm lazy, but your lazy borders anti-town and is covered up by lying.

[Thor665]

Yes, I see a lot of repetition that I am wolf - but I would note after nearly half of those posts I asked you bout your conclusion or commentary and was promptly stonewalled.
About the other half of them are not cases, but simple commenting that I am scum with no explanation offered.
So - no, those are all empty.

[Thor665]

Put your money where your mouth is then, Thor

Vote for Boon

Or is bussing in MYLO too risky?

Like, just as an example - this is one of the quotes you provide. It is blatantly not even the illusion of a case - it is hardly alone in this category.

All you did was iso yourself for 'Thor' and post every result to try and make it look like a case.
Whoop-dee-doo.

[Thor665]

except I'm not a wolf.

Well, more importantly, if you are a wolf the only wolf partner you have available is TSO.

[Thor665]

Actually, I steadfastedly avoided posts that merely restated my conclusion, and tried to only quote ones that explained my reasoning. Nice try.

You have a very loose definition of 'not restating' then.

I went through my entire ISO, and only quoted about half the posts that mention you.

In this quote, I am highlighting the collusion between you and Boon. You stubbornly refuse to even

consider

the possibility of Boon as a Wolf. Town wouldn't dismiss the possibility, Mafia certainly wouldn't.

I did consider Boon as a Wolf - that is part and parcel of my 'I only see Boon with TSO' conversation. We can discuss that if you like, but it's a clear lie that I haven't considered him as scum in general and wolf in particular. Indeed, he's my frontrunner for Mafia at this stage, and I discussed my reasoning or that also.

And seriously, how cowardly was it to choose one of the simplest and most straightforward posts to use as your example?

Oh, I only took the easy one, eh?
Okay...

How about 5954 - where you just post a funny picture - that was worth noting as part of your "case"?
Or 6155 - which is you saying 'oh, just because there is evidence that you are not a buddy to someone, it could have been a scum plan!' which is...the opposite of a 'case'.
Or 6263 - which I have repeatedly asked you to justify, as you're claiming I'm Wolf for "bloodthirtiness" while neither showing bloodthirstiness nor explaining how it's a wolf tell.
Or 6411 where you ding me and Boon for 'eerie simultaneous attacks' while ignoring that Boon did the same thing with TSO and that TSO did the same thing with me.
Or 6513 where basically you're trying to make a sarcastic=scummy case.

Aw...crap...I'm being sarcastic again, so now this post is part of your case against me too.

No - your case is just a random Thor+Boon based on how Boon is treating me more than how I'm treating him, and ignoring how I'm treating others (and being treated by others) in similar fashions. Why is that?

[Thor665]

So why did you decide that I was wrong?

My case on Thor+Boon is simply stronger

To ask the follow up question for Nero.

Why?

[Thor665]

PE2: Goddamnit, we've been doing this all day. TSO and Thor refuse to vote Boon. It isn't going to happen. If either of them does, I'm all over it

Ooooh, so now we notice and admit that TSO hasn't been pushing Boon either.
Fascinating.
Am I still Boon's buddy for not pushing him though?
Or do you want to claim Boon *hasn't* been aping TSO as much/more as he's aped me?
I'd like your thoughts on this.
Keeping your phone in mind, yeah?

So deadline is in like 10 hours. The only votes that I support today are Boon/Slandaar/no lynch and maybe Pine (but you'll have to explain why he's wolf) so you guys decide what ya'll want.

Your later vote makes me happy - but what the hell was this gak?
Seriously - justify it.

Well shit

Is Nero a wolf after all?

Good game Town

I'll actually ape Boon on this.
This feels fake as all get out.

I stand by my last offered thoughts as regards night actions.

[Thor665]

but what the hell was this gak?

this "gak" is the same thing that I've been sating all day. I really don't get why you and TSO are up in arms about this.

I'm asking why, when Slandaar was at L-1, you were saying you'd help us lynch (from a list including Slandaar) but we had to let you know.
Why did you say that at that point?

@Slandaar - huzzah!

[Thor665]

@Mafia - so to clarify, shoot Pine.

[Thor665]

I would support that.

[Thor665]

It is funny how quiet it can get after lynch like that.
Let's see...


TSO is posting elsewhere.
Pine is also posting elsewhere.
Nero is not.
Boon just posted here, albeit in a chest thumping way.

Still feel pretty decent about my reads thus far. Definitely keeping my wolf read on Pine. Still a little conflicted on Mafia but leaning Boon, albeit Nero better have a sexy answer to my question come tomorrow.

[Thor665]

I'm not posting here (though I am reading) because I'd like to see an actual flip before I make plans. Unlike you, I don't actually know what Slandaar's going to flip

[Thor665]

@TSO - frankly I translated Slandaar's comment as admitting to a bus - but it was handled so clunky and silly that I don't buy it, as he could simply state a mafia suspect.
I suppose it makes sense that his Mafia suspect was actually in his Wolf team.

So he suspected me or Nero of being Mafia.
The Nero suspicion would also make sense with the way he parsed T/T/M - as Nero was the last vote (unless Nero is the Wolf partner, in which case he meant me...and his vote on Nero was indeed going nowhere), which would suggest one of me, you, or Boon as the bussing Wolf partner.

I may almost be selling myself with Nero = Wolf with Slandaar with that thought - as Slandaar did seem more focused on getting me lynched than Nero, and yet voted Nero towards the end here. I'd have to go look to get a feel for the bus potential there. I don't think you nor Boon make much sense as a Slandaar partner though (and also think I pretty obviously am not even moreso than you two). It would also help justify how weird Nero's vote on him ended up being with that open question thing while Slandaar was sitting at L-1; though wolves who bussed today...well, aren't playing any worse than they've been playing, but it's a continuation of the evidence that they have played poorly.

@TSO - talk to me about your thoughts on Nero v. Pine as possible partner to wolf Slandaar.
@Boon - same question.

[Thor665]

Shrug. Could be trolling. Need a flip

He's trolling a wolf claim after lynch?

[Thor665]

Didn't Nero have a bad dustup with Scripten?

[Thor665]

Scripten, what do you think of me thinking you are the scum from my hood?

Kinda hard to form any real opinion on it. I don't know where your reads are, am either null- or town-reading other players in the hood, and I am speaking from a different PoV than you are. (You already know your own role. I already know mine.) There's too many variables for me to make a judgement call on that statement other than saying it's wrong.

Eh - this post seems really unlikely as a wolf/wolf interaction.

I think I'm sticking with Pine as the other Wolf.

[Thor665]

I suppose it makes sense that his Mafia suspect was actually in his Wolf team.

So he suspected me or Nero of being Mafia.

These two sentences are clunky - to clarify them in order;

I suppose it makes sense that his true Mafia suspect was actually placed in his suspected Wolf team reads.

So he suspected me or Nero of being Mafia which is why he was calling us the wolf team.

[Thor665]

Going back and looking - Nero really came out of left field as a suspect there.
It was Thor/Boon for some time.
Eh...

[Thor665]

I do stand by this;

@Mafia - Thor, Boon, and TSO are all pretty blatantly 'not Wolf' at this point. Shoot accordingly depending on who you are.
I still lean Pine.

[Thor665]

I'll admit that's a possibility. If it's true - in post game I will take exception to you calling it 'our' though I blatantly started that conversation - you were using weird neighbor analysis to call me scum as I recall untill I pointed out my theory.
But until post game; I'd still like you to answer this.

@TSO - talk to me about your thoughts on Nero v. Pine as possible partner to wolf Slandaar.

[Thor665]

No kill, huh?










TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

Hey, guys - guys....guess what.
Thor may have lied about something in his claim.

[Thor665]

Claim: Jailkept Pine last night

I do think it's fairly obvious Pine is scum, natch. I suppose on a theoretical concept that maybe scum shot Pine thinking he was scum, and then other scum shot Boon thinking the same - but I prefer to believe that scum shot Pine and Pine shot someone. I also think his reaction shows that he shot at Boon, natch.

@Pine - would you care to help town out by telling us who you think Mafia is? Because I think you're pretty clearly busted Wolf at this stage and, really, you *are* going to be lynched today and I would like to suggest that town has been playing better than Mafia. Wanna help us out with any theories from your Wolf buds now passed or yourself? Heck, if you're Mafia and not Wolf, that alone would be worth heaaring just to help us scumhunt today.

Also, in unrelated news - I am confirmed town - shock.
I also stand by the theory that neither Boon nor TSO look like likely Wolves. I mean, *maybe*...but, man, that was some nasty Wolf bussing action if they were. I bet looking over Slandaar would only help solidify that in my head, honestly.

Nero is still a sad sack for me.
Game balance wise I'm conflicted on Boon - hell, playstyle wise I'm conflicted there.
I think I'm still of a mind to say Boon as Mafia.

I'd like to hear some people talk about Nero v. Boon as last scum. I think it's Pine plus one of them.
Thoughts?

[Thor665]

Unless Thor is claiming BP Townie, that throws Boon back into the possible Wolf mix

If I was claiming that I would have been voting Boon solid for days on end by now - and also calling you all lackwits...and also would have counterclaimed on Day 1.

[Thor665]

Don't be sad.

Why are you not Mafia?

[Thor665]

@Pine - Okay - so I'm Wolf...who bussed my buddy...and then jailkept you instead of shooting at you because I thought you were the Mafia...and then shot no one or opted to jailkeep instead of shoot?
Riiiiiight.

Dude, seriously, you're just going to be ignored if you keep up the pretense.


@Nero - please go and quote you "leading" the lynch and show me who you got on the lynch. I agree that you voted him - but that is different from "leading".

[Thor665]

I wouldn't call your sitting on Pine all day and sitting there and going "oh I much rather lynch flubber" leading either. I started the flubber wagon

I would suggest I did more for that wagon than you - but I'm not the one who needs to be cleared of being Mafia.

Don't snark with me - please present a valid case.

[Thor665]

Well, if you guys didn't notice yesterDay, I was trying to act like I was mafia so the real mafia would be semi obvious to me. Also, I was trying to draw the wolf night kill. Obviously a wolf tried shooting me, meaning if Pine's scum, he is mafia, as he was unable to shoot at me.
All things lead back to Nero...

VOTE: Nero

Whut?

[Thor665]

@TSO - we need to start a fan club based around having no fething clue what Boon is thinking and saying at any given moment.

[Thor665]

You can do it if you revisit 6815 more.

Because that gak needs some clarification.

[Thor665]

That's a decent start.

[Thor665]

Is that for any reason beyond 'current derp'? Because that's what it feels you're basing your call off of and I'm not sure that's a wise divining rod. He's actually proud of his derp, and though that makes me pass serious judgement on his play quality it does not prove scum intent.

[Thor665]

I don't know, Thor, I feel we're passing everything Boon does off as derp town.

He has been my top Mafia scumspect off and on since yesterday, and I suspected him before that. I am not passing him off as derp 'town'. That said - I am not willing to believe that derp=scum in his case. There is a marked difference in the opinions. Derp or no - there will be a case on him regardless, or there will not be.

Like, he says that he was trying to bait-absorb a shot last night instead of hoping for a crosskill.

From a town perspective, that makes literally no Smurfing sense unless he somehow got powered up from one of the BP-shots being used up.

I intentionally jailed someone I was fairly convinced was scum - how is his concept different from my own? Both of us were, in effect, trying to stop a kill at the cost of protecting scum.

I am considering his reactions when Pine claimed Mafia. They did seem off at the time, but I was Werewolf hunting at that point so didn't really go too far into it.

I don't recall any of those twiging to me - I'd love to see your thoughts on that period.

[Thor665]

For me derp = bad play.
That's the beginning and end of it - and it can come from town and scum in equal amounts.
Hell, I'm pretty convinced scum (both sides) played this game pretty poorly and I do look forward to seeing the scum QTs to watch the NK debates to see if that makes more sense in their conclusions than it appears to (I will admit with a Watcher flip it might justify the DGB shot, natch).

[Thor665]

Why do you say that?

[Thor665]

Three PRs on one side, vs goon, 1-shot, and something else? The remaining wolf would have to be a bulletproof ninja godfather

The "goon" was a neighbor actually - which some people seem to consider functional for scum (not as powerfula s they seem to think daytalk is, but...meh - I consider 'neighbor' about as useless as Doctor, myself)

That said, currently we have 2 Wolf PR flips and 2 Mafia PR flips.
I'm not sure why the last wolf would need to be a BP ninja GF to balance...couldn't he simply be BP and balance? Or GF and balance? Your stance feels very thin at the moment.

[Thor665]

Not to mention, Town power is kind of weak. Weak scum PRs make more sense.

Currently town has a Jack of Trades (with protective aspects) A Tracker and a limited shot cop who can detect either faction (so double investigative) A limited shot Vig, and also a JKer whom you haven't even bothered to try to figure out how many shots I may or may not have left.

So I see JKer, Vig, and Cop - three of the strongest town roles in existence.
Also a tracker and Jack - neither of which is what I would call weak.
Plus the neighbor gak.

How are we "weak" if that is the extent of town power?

[Thor665]

I did add JKer to town power - and I already pointed out that your balance assertions were being made without even trying to ask me how many shots I did or didn't have. I feel like you're only half reading what I post. You're not doing much to sell me on you being town who was targeted for a kill.

Also;

Claim: My JK specifically and clearly only protects against a single kill attempt per night

[Thor665]

@Pine - who's the wolf, who's the mafia? I'm really starting to lean Nero-Wolf (shot me), and TSO-Mafia (shot you).

Why is that? (he asked - kind of expecting this question to be ignored as all others before it had been)

[Thor665]

I think it's kind of adorable how much TSO has poured on the turbo against me. He needs for attention to be so far off of him that he gets overlooked

Which scu team are you connecting him to?
Hint: everyone is ignoring your push because it's not a push.

@Boon - your play quality is sorely lacking and it offends me.

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

I'm sorry that I feel a bizarre concept that people in the game should play the game?
Don't get silly passive aggressive on me, dude. Your output over the past week has been exceedingly poor. If you're sick - that sucks. But if you've been sick for over a week you have enough issues that you should be replacing out. And if you haven't been ill that long - then you ought to be able to be more proactive.

[Thor665]

@Pine - who's the wolf, who's the mafia? I'm really starting to lean Nero-Wolf (shot me), and TSO-Mafia (shot you).

Why is that? (he asked - kind of expecting this question to be ignored as all others before it had been)

@Boon - I fething loathe you.

[Thor665]

You do all realize that - by a substantial margin - TSO is out-towning all of you.
TSO.
What the hell peeps?

[Thor665]

Your output over the past week has been exceedingly poor

I *might* agree with this mainly 'cause this dayphase hasn't been going on for a week. I've also been a major contributor to the past two scum lynches and I am very likey to be correct on the last two scum. (pine and boons) Why are you pretending like I need a bizillion posts? My content is good, my reads are good thus I don't need 554776654656885656556 posts to be an active contributor.

Yeah, "you" have been totally a leading force on those wagons.
I'm actually annoyed you found time out of your day to post this and not to, y'know, present reasoning or debate some of the questions I have as regards the you v. Boon issue, or anything else pro-townish.

@TSO - speaking of which, you were also going to give me some Boon v. Nero feedback. How is that coming?

I feel like this is a repeat of yesterday, where I announced my reads and reasons, and then other people took weeks to even vaguely present their reads,a nd then we lynched. Is this the thing to do in late game now? We don't debate each other on reasoning anymore? I don't get it.

[Thor665]

@Nero - like, you're clearly not even really v/la.
Fine - whoop-de-feth, Thor is a jerk - I can accept that and will gladly admit to it.
But make your next post game content as opposed to meaningless drivel pointing out that I am being mean.

[Thor665]

I see little advantage to much talking with Pine at this stage - it is on him to show solid evidence that either he is not scum or someone else specifically is - otherwise he's the lynch for today as you, I, Boon (I think?), and Nero have all indicated belief that he's scum. So that's his business should he choose to accept it, and if he's town he should...and if he's scum he should, so.

I'd like to get feedback from you on the Boon v. Nero question.

I'd like to get Nero's and Boon's feedback on the same question.

I'd like Nero to explain his PR = scum theory in more depth, especially now in light of how the no kill night happened.

I'd like Boon to explain his ludicrous claims of who shot where, and why he is claiming them - and if he can't I'd like to see him present a case not based off made up gak.

I'd like to see Nero back up his claim of leading certain wagons.

I'd like to see the same from Boon, frankly.

I'd like to see TSO not sit back on laurels of 'I'm doing better at being pro-town than people who appear to actively be not trying to be pro-town'.

I'd like for this to happen within a few days, because then I'd sort of like to lynch Pine.

About the only job I give myself is I think I should come up with a few thoughts for the scum as to who to shoot based off Pine's flip - because if I'm wrong about him scum will want to shoot smartly, as a scum kill at that point and a town kill from other scum, equates to a win for scum - so it behooves them to be on top of that gak and it behooves me to educate them enough to hopefully swing the crosskill.

[Thor665]

In working on my own job that I gave myself - I do have to say that the only wolves I currently see are Pine or Nero. I remain pretty convinced that neither TSO nor Boon were bussing yesterday.
So if Pine flips town, and you're Mafia, I'd shoot Nero, and if you're Nero and a Wolf...well...I dunno...it sorta depends on your role. If your role is strong, shoot Boon, if your role is not that strong shoot TSO. Basically pay attention to the balance between the teams and decide whether Boon is really BP and can also be scum.

As far as Wolves, if Pine flips town and you're hunting last Mafia...again, I think it depends on your role. Nero or Boon seem the smart money here, though. As above, it depends. I also will add that TSO is probably more likely cleared of Wolf than of Mafia, so he's sort of like the wild card guess for you. Let's hold on that thought - I probably need to re-look at some of my Mafia theorizing, as I was more focused on Wolves yesterday.

[Thor665]

[4]Slandaar: Boonskiies, T S O, Thor665, Nero Cain -- LYNCH

[1]

Nero Cain:

Slandaar
[1]

Thor665:

Pine

This is all the proof I need to back up my leading of Slandaar's wagon.

Since when is "first to vote" equivalent to "leading the wagon".
You sure as hell didn't lead me onto that wagon - I'm pretty sure you didn't lead TSO there either, though I *might* but that with evidence.

When i say "lead the wagon" I mean you *LEAD* the fething wagon. As in, you talked about why it was a good wagon, you repeatedly pressured people to vote it,a nd you constantly attacked the person you were voting. *THAT* is leading.
All you have shown is that you voted him.
Whoop-dee-doo.

Nero limited power role wolf shot Pine last night. Pine, mafia goon, was jailed and kept alive, and also was unable to make a kill because of it. this is actually more likely what happened.

Why is this more likely what happened?
What makes Pine Mafia?
What makes Nero Wolf?

Also, Thor, you should definitely state who you are going to jail toNight. It'll most definitely help us out tomorrow, even if you ended up dying.

Since I almost invariably have the hammer - I'll announce then.

If anyone speed derp hammers without me around to say otherwise then I'll jail TSO if Pine flips town and Boon if Pine flips Wolf and whoever speed derped hammered if Pine flips Mafia.

The Town motivation for that fakeclaim was reactions. It didn't go as well as I'd hoped, but maybe I need to go back and look at it again, without the preconception of Boon + Thor

Unvote

I'll wait for your reasoning.

[Thor665]

Actually, y'know what Boon - I don't even care anymore to give you the chance to look town.
I'm going to look at you vote myself.

[Thor665]

@Boon - you didn't lead GAK as far as the Slandaar lynch, you practically had to be dragged into that vote and were fairly desperate and shifty about it, and overly eager to shift to Pine at multiple points during the lynch. Nah - no 'non-Wolf' cred for you there methinks.

If I search you for Scripten will I find anything remotely clearing of you?

[Thor665]

That is not you against Slandaar at all.
It is most assuredly not you leading gak.
I don't care about your opinion on this anymore.

I asked you some questions;

Nero limited power role wolf shot Pine last night. Pine, mafia goon, was jailed and kept alive, and also was unable to make a kill because of it. this is actually more likely what happened.

Why is this more likely what happened?
What makes Pine Mafia?
What makes Nero Wolf?

[Thor665]

I'd like to get feedback from you on the Boon v. Nero question.

When you ask this, are we assuming that Pine's gonna flip WW? Because the question is different if we aren't.

Assess both possibilities then.

Yeah, "you" have been totally a leading force on those wagons

I'm glad you agree.

Yeah - because narf word games is how you should spend your limited posting time while worrying about your health as opposed to, y'know, helping the town wincon.
WHat is this gakky-gak business?
Replace out?

In short I think a 10/5 town makes a little more sense than a 9/6. I am town and TSO doesn't make that much sense to me as either scum faction. Leaving Pine, you and Boons to contain the last 2 scum. I really don't like the idea of town having 4 prs and one of you two being town also gives town two protective roles and also Pine is scum so like that means both of you can't be scum.

Why do you rule out TSO as either scum faction?
Also, why don't you like the idea of 4 town PRs versus 6 scum, 2 killing factions, and at least 3 scum PRs not counting neighbor?

I'd like to see Nero back up his claim of leading certain wagons.

Sure. I will admit that I wasn't the only one scumreading Flubber but I preferred him to Pine. Simply put, his lynch would not have happened unless I started pushing him. In much the same fashion, Slandaar did NOT have that much heat on him until I started accusing him and Boons of being wolf together. (which I still think is very likely) I was p instrumental in both lynches. I dunno if you are downplaying my role b/c scum or just ego.

Please show some of these decisive push moments via a quote or link - or even just give me some decent info so I can track them down in your iso.
It is not how I remember either lynch going down, but I would be happy to be proven wrong as it would make my job easier.

Also - I'd love to hear which scum faction you think I am part of and why - because...seriously now.

[Thor665]

Replace out?
Because though I can sympathize with you that real life is biting your backside - you were the one who signed up for the game. You either have time to play it or you don't. So replace out or play. I am so dead inside when people give me these sorts of answers nowadays - when my schedule is bad I stop joining games and play in less games and control my obligations as a courtesy to the other players. I do not toss it in their face that I'm allowed to be a lazy derp-tard because I'm too busy to participate but still decided to join up because 'hey, screw you guys, I wanted to play without time to play'. It's weird. Don't use that as an excuse with me, please.

[Thor665]

I don't even understand how herculean of an effort you think this is - all I'm asking you to do is assess two slots for scum/town possibilities within the scope of this game that has two scum factions.

How much time does that take you roughly?

[Thor665]

#1 pine is scummier than TSO. #2 I think the way that Scripten treated us in the hoods makes me think not wolf (you were agreeing with this earlier so IDK why you stopped) #3 Pine is prob going to flip mafia and Ren voting TSO kinda makes me think he's less likely to be mafia anyhow.

1. Well, that's true for everyone who isn't Pine, frankly.

2. Was I agreeing with that? I don't think I was because I would have asked for a summation of what was said and don't recall seeing that. Can you give a rundown of the exchange?

3. This, functionally, applies to almost everyone again and is based off a future flip regardless. I find it a really weird number 3.

That felt shallower than I had hoped for.

b/c 4 is low? A limited shot cop, a full tracker, a Joat with limited self protect and protect others and a limited vig. Besides you are claiming town so a town you would make a 5th town pr so not really sure why you'd argue with me about there being 4 town prs.

This doesn't actually answer the uestion of why you find this to be balanced or not - it's just a list of what is proven to be in the game and then the Thor/Boon question.
I don't follow.

wolf but my setup spec is right. Its 10/5 with Pine as the odd man out which leaves you and Boon. Boon is the most likley to be scum out of the two of you but I can't see both of you being town.

How does Wolf me make sense - why were me and my buddies so derptastically bus happy?

[Thor665]

Yes, I really did expect when I signed up in this game mid-September that I would still be in this position come February.

It's a large, Sherlock. How long do you normally think they run for?

Like, seriously, fuck me but I have given a lot to this game and been pretty goddamn active here and still you randomly tell me to replace out.

The last time we got a replacement was Pine, look at how content from that slot soared.

Yeah, except he's busted scuma nd I actually kind of think you're a town slot - so you offend me more because he's at least not playing against his wincon by being lurkaderp.

I don't know? It'll take me a rather long time, at any rate. I mean, I don't know what you want me to even do - VCA, associatives, gut?

What were you planning to do when you complained that it would take too long?
All I'm asking you for is you to consider them and get back to me with an opinion hopefully based on some shred of evidence in addition to however much 'gut' you wish to use - you can do that in any way that you normally scumhunt.

Was I agreeing with that? I don't think I was because I would have asked for a summation of what was said and don't recall seeing that. Can you give a rundown of the exchange?

I think that later I'll go through your ISO and find it.

let me ask you something: you are claiming town. Why are you arguing with me and my thinking that there are 5 prs?

There is a pretty big difference between 'arguing against' and 'asking someone to explain the reasoning they used to reach a conclusion'.
I'm still waiting, by the by - on multiples of them.

[Thor665]

Well I've told you. I'm town and Pine is scum. I don't like TSO that much as wolf from Scripten's interactions or mafia thanks to Csareo's OMGUS attack. Which literally leaves you and Boon. So...not really sure why you are making this out like its so hard to understand?

I'm trying to understand how the Scripten/Csearo interactions clear TSO when I have the Scripten+Slandaar interactions and the Reinoe+Flubber interactions to clear me. You may want to argue them as of equal strength, but to argue TSO's as clearing and mine not as all is literally insane sounding to me and I want you to explain the logic so I can understand if you are insane town or filthy lying scum.

So why can't you do this?

[Thor665]

The way that scripten tried to play mediator between me and TSO makes me think non wolf and the non wolf scum faction is mafia.

I actually do

not

dislike this logic - what do you think of TSO's stance that he is not Mafia as he expressed a few posts back in reply to you?

[/quote]
There is no indication that this was from a QT and I saw that interaction in thread.
So you were only referring to a QT for that comment?

[Thor665]

except when he flips scum, it is needed. I don't know what else I can say to even push for this lynch, as it was all said yesterDay. Remember yesterDay? When he was 100% scum to people?

How is he not scum today?
I am pretty sure everyone agrees he's getting lynched, so what's bugging you?

[Thor665]

So you're straight up clearing me just as much as you're clearing TSO - but are calling Boons scum only because you believe a PR *has* to be scum at this stage?

Where do you think the second kill went last night?

[Thor665]

So you were only referring to a QT for that comment?

yes

@TSO - addded to your list of homework. How would you describe the interactions between you and Nero in the QT wherein Scripten intervened, and how did/do you read the interaction as to Nero's alignment?

[Thor665]

Up yers jerk face

Unless you're scum - then no insult.
but if you're town - seriously, up yers.

[Thor665]

also a little irked that Thor is berating me with questions and yelling at TSO to do stuff but when I asked him to discuss TSO with me he didn't.

Link me the question(s)? I missed them.

[Thor665]

Well, I really don't know what else I can say. I'm town. I get lynched, and the games over. How would you try and defend yourself in this situation?

I would show evidence showing that I was unlikely scum with any of the flipped scum.

[Thor665]

So lets spend some time talking about TSO-what worries you there?

As far as I can tell this is it.

Since I am not listing TSO as a scumspect it was a dead conversation to me - he doesn't worry me. I don't get the point of the question.

[Thor665]

1. You might not even be bulletproof.
2. How does the vote count suggest you're not wolf?
3. How does BP not make sense for Mafia?

[Thor665]

Other than you, no one else can feel any certainty he's BP.

[Thor665]

Well, I suppose any theory scum that shot him could also feel that.

[Thor665]

The only thing obvious to you that others lack is your role PM - that is normal.

[Thor665]

Like, if your play looked more pro-town we could be having a different discussion today.
Your play doesn't really look pro-town.
Neither does the play of your slot as a whole.

So, basically, you just want us to take your word that you're town, and then lynch Boon + some other scum of which you are a little more changeable on opinion of who it is depending on which point of the day we consider.

That's nothing to really write home about.

[Thor665]

Let's look at ISOs.

Literally the only scum Josh voted was reinoe - off an odd buy-in to Beast's claim. Which, frankly, looks like Wolf knowledge to me.
Garmr never voted scum at any point in the game unless Boon is, indeed, scum.
You voted Flubber as your only known on scum vote, and spent a massive amount of another day pushing me as a lynch as an alternate to a now known Wolf.

I see some evidence for your slot to maybe not be Mafia...maybe.
But you make brilliant sense as a Wolf.
And remain okay as a Mafia as the Reinoe vote was the only 'awkward as a bus' vote in my opinion.

[Thor665]

Oh, and almost forgot, you claimed Mafia at an advantageous moment for Wolf to claim Mafia.
yes, you then backtracked and claimed it as a reaction fish for town purposes - but the only fish you got, apparently, was me, in a very unexplained bit of reasoning that, oh, Slandaar the wolf also agreed with.

[Thor665]

About which?

[Thor665]

Not much to say about it. I agree with what you see but don't consider it a home run.

[Thor665]

You made it seem like it was wrong of me to not suspect TSO.

I think you grossly continue to lack the ability to discern between 'why do you clear him' versus 'it is worrisome that you don't suspect him!'
You have also continued to be kind of weird in how you described how you cleared him - it does not make me happy and *that* is what bothers me - not the conclusion, but rather the method of reaching it.

I asked the one, not the other.
My TSO thoughts are outlined here;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6516551
Which would you like to discuss?

[Thor665]

I explained that I was trying to soft claim mafia yesterDay to take a wolf shot, and to dissuade mafia from shooting me. Even if my BP had been used, I would have died and helped confirm some reads on people.

If either you or Pine are town - I really am fascinated by the idea you got in your heads that claiming scum in thread somehow translates to 'good town play'.

Hint: it is not.

[Thor665]

viewtopic.php?p=6516551#p6516551
Which would you like to discuss?

I find it absolutely hilarious that just a few pages ago you were claiming to have forgotten that you were agreeing with me about why TSO isn't wolf scum but YOUR reasoning for clearing TSO as wolf was you agreeing with me

I am unclear on why you think TSO is not mafia. Explain pls.

...Oh dear gawd - as we already discussed I misunderstood which interaction you meant, but that said my clearing of the Wolf thing was more based around the theory interaction with Scripten paired with your specific interaction; not with your reasoning for the clear and certainly not over an explicit awareness that the conversation happened in a QT - which is what I later discussed with you as not remembering.

My Mafia clear of him is based around the interactions he had with Flubber.
To be specific, this; http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6317252
I don't see that as Mafia/Mafia there.

[Thor665]

I explained that I was trying to soft claim mafia yesterDay to take a wolf shot, and to dissuade mafia from shooting me. Even if my BP had been used, I would have died and helped confirm some reads on people.

If either you or Pine are town - I really am fascinated by the idea you got in your heads that claiming scum in thread somehow translates to 'good town play'.

Hint: it is not.

It is, actually, though you'd be right in almost any other context. It has the distinct possibility of drawing out a soft (or even hard) counterclaim, it had the chance of highlighting wolves who smelled victory, and it didn't harm Town at all when it was quickly retracted and explained.

No - it is not.
No - it doesn't matter that it was quickly retracted.
And also, as showm literally the only thing you claimed to get out of it was a reaction that I was Wolf - which is, at this stage, blatantly a wrong read - so it didn't even help you scumhunt and, if you are town, helped you tunnel town all day and defend wolf based off the reactions of your bad play scum claim.

[Thor665]

Look, we can argue about whether it was constructive in post game. You're saying that there's no way that Town would do it, and I don't appreciate the fact that you're foisting your own opinions onto me and judging my actions based on what you would have done.

I thought it was a good idea. I did it. End of story

I am not saying there's no way town would do it.
I'm saying town who do it are playing badly.
If you were a Wolf it was good play (though I don't think you should have recanted) if you are town it was TERRIBLE play.

No one ever said I make good town decisions. Remember my hammer on you in Ninja Mafia? That was HORRIBLE, especially because I was super town reading you the whole day. I was town. Granted, you flipped scum, but still. No one would say I make good town plays.

I don't care so much if you make bad plays.
I care if you don't learn that they were bad plays and improve your game.
Also - I consider you capable of making bad plays as scum, for the record.

[Thor665]

So...either way, I made a bad play...but you're choosing to scumread me for it

Super logic bro

How does you making a bad play preclude anyone from deciding it was an alignment indicative play?
Also - I'm not town or scum reading you over that play - I was simply citing it as bad.

Oh, I'm much better scum than I am town, haha. Mimicking my town play is easy.

Then your town play needs improvement.

[Thor665]

@Pine - I should suppose I should clarify - I'm scum reading you for what you did *after* that play, not the actual claim, but the claimed results you got. I am calling those scummy.

[Thor665]

Yes.

[Thor665]

I feel like we're starting to enter grind territory with most of the other players doing spit all.

Who here is still of the belief that they are advancing their case in a meaningful way?
Because I'm ready for lynch.

[Thor665]

I was just waiting for you and TSO

Put your vote into play then.

[Thor665]

Vote: Pine

[Thor665]

If Pine flips Wolf I'm going to jail Boon.
If Pine flips Mafia I'm going to jail TSO
If Pine flips town I'm going to jail Nero.

[Thor665]

If Pine is Mafia - yes.
Why should that bother you, don't you think he's Wolf?

[Thor665]

Hey, Boon, get a good defense together for tomorrow.
Just saying.

[Thor665]

Because I thoroughly expect Pine to flip Wolf, but still feel rather dirty about being considered Wolf.

For Pine to be town it means that scum shot Boon, which verifies BP on Boon.
Also, I cannot imagine a Wolf scum shooting Pine unless Wolf scum was derp-pa-doo-da.
That suggests that for Pine to be town, Boon has to be a BP Mafia - which...is a dicey one to swallow fully.
At that point, you enter into play a whole lot more reasonably as a scumspect.

[Thor665]

I'm getting mislynched either way. If Pine flips wolf, expect scum to put forth a no kill, as I would totally try to frame me in this situation if I was scum.

I probably would lynch you if that happens, I'll admit.

[Thor665]

Yes.

[Thor665]

Look at it this way - if you're town, you're safe.

[Thor665]

Everyone always goes so quiet at these points.

It's kind of annoying, because I usually translate that as a scum tell - yet all of you are doing it multiple times. It bugs the living feth out of me.

[Thor665]

Kinda feel screwed by PoE here

That is part of the process of multiscum.
That said, you were playing scummy - I and a few other people were calling you scummy prior to me offering my setup spec that really narrowed your PoE space.

Wolf Bulletproof.

That's an interesting one.
Hurm...
Well, I already said I'd jail Boon if you flipped Wolf - so...yeah, this doesn't change that if you flip BP Wolf.
I am sticking to my previously stated commentary.

I really thought AtE and active lurking was going to work,

Pardon me, I'm going to be sick in the corner.

I guess it's possible he's town, maybe. My main problem as town is confirmation bias'ing the fuck out of my scumreads - I was convinced yesterday that Thor was Pine's Wolf buddy and I think it was only the set-up spec which led me to stop calling him Wolf.

That is true, up until I offered that up you had some weird alternate neighbor spec you were calling me scum for - basically you were hard married to me being scum as far as I could tell.

I'm fairly sure I'll be doing a hard reset if I'm alive tomorrow anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem hopefully.

Today, after the Slandaar flip and a no kill night, would have been a good day to do that, frankly.
Why do you think you'll need a hard reset tomorrow?

@Boon - do you believe the BP claim from the Wolf and how do you think that effects your own claim?

[Thor665]

@Pine - could you please explain Majiffy's town/town/Mafia comment as best you can?

[Thor665]

I guess I better make sure you know; Town/Town/Maf. Cry at me postgame if you already knew but I feel I need to make sure.

This one.

Also - Slandaar, not Majiffy.

@Slandaar - sorry for insulting your play by confusing you two there

[Thor665]

Nero continues to play pro-scum in this game by avoiding commenting on what is happening.

[Thor665]

What are your thoughts on his BP status considering Pine's current claim?

[Thor665]

But wouldn't that be a negative applied to the Wolf team that is not properly balanced as a negative to the Mafia team?

[Thor665]

It doesn't make sense for mafia to have a BP as the 3rd role. Mafia would have significantly more power than wolves.

Does it make sense for town to have a BP though?
I've been saying since yesterday that I have doubts as to the existence of your BP status.

[Thor665]

Also, I've been on every single one of the wagons that lynched Mafia/Werewolf. Every single one of them.

Nero has been also - thoughts?

[Thor665]

From the looks of this, this setup does indeed look symmetrical. There should be a mafia goon neighbor, and it most likely is in Neighborhood #2.

I do tend to agree that there is a Mafia in the neighborhoods - I've been saying that for some time also.
Besies your role PM, what theory do you have that the Mafia neighbor needs to be in the same neighborhood as the Wolf one?

[Thor665]

Yes, it does make sense. There is a JailKeeper and a 2 shot vig in this game. Not to mention, there is a JOAT who has a bodyguard and a commuter. It makes perfect sense.

Why?
You are literally listing 2 town protective roles, why should there be a third and why does it make perfect sense?

[Thor665]

The roleblock carries protection as part of it - a jailkeeper starts defensive and moves investigative as the game proceeds.

Who were the Wolf kills?

[Thor665]

^^^
@Pine

[Thor665]

I mean, I'm investigative now if there's a kill, as it will clear someone if I jail them, natch.

[Thor665]

We're hung up on it because you presented it as evidence to support/prove you as town, and if it is evidence in your mind then there's a serious question as to how it applies to you and not Nero - especially when Nero has done it and TSO hasn't and you're needing to choose between TSO/Nero as regards your setup based reasoning for calling Nero scum.

@TSO - I think I may have been on every single lynch wagon in this game, quite frankly. I would even go so far as to claim being a leading force on all of them in addition, town, mafia, and wolf. 2 of each, I'm very open minded.

[Thor665]

Nah, not telling. I'll give my opinions, but not taking sides. Either Town or Maf deserves this, not going to bias it with hard info

Mafia stopped deserving it after the kill choice on Night 4 unless they had rolecopped DGB and were scared of her one additional shot for some reason.
Unless you'd like to claim DGB was not a Wolf kill I'm not sure how Mafia deserves the perspiration off your scrotum, frankly.

[Thor665]

There being no mafia on PV is kinda strange. I think this points to scum being in TSO,Thor or Boon but then I already knew that so meh...

[Thor665]

What do you think of there being no mafia on PV?

I think it's a useful PoE consideration that you are failing to supply any analysis to - functionally you're pointing out something I pointed out yesterday, multiple times.
Am I supposed to have a new opinion for any reason now that you also spot it except supply less analysis than I did?

[Thor665]

What you did was literally IIoA - like, the textbook definition thereof.

[Thor665]

Am I supposed to have a new opinion for any reason now that you also spot it except supply less analysis than I did?

no. What analysis am I supposed to gather? I already knew that the last scum was in Boon/you/tso so what extra info was I supposed to glean?

There is a wagon with 3 possible scum on it-how do I tell them apart?

So basically you said you suspect us all and then provided evidence to support the idea of suspecting us all.
Why should I have any new opinion over that in any way whatsoever? You asked me about it, so it seems like you thought I should have a value call on it in some manner - what value call were you expecting?

Stop using it is a reasoning now. It's not a reason. I was unaware of other people's things, it was just some random note I put out. I didn't even say it made me town, all I did was state that is what happened.

What was your motive in posting it then?

[Thor665]

sorry Thor

Eh, it happens.

[Thor665]

You pulled out a good game, TSO. I'm not even mad, Town deserved to lose after the dave lynch.

Town deserved to lose after a Day 2 lynch of town?
Followed by 4 scum lynches in a row?
I disagree with your concept of logic - town lost because scum basically refused to shoot other scum and town was dying in droves despite accurate lynching.

[Thor665]

Depends on your endgame - but I hardly think 'lack of cross kills' is an empty commentary about town's loss in this game.
Do you disagree?

[Thor665]

Also, I do think your n4 and n5 shots were bad shots considering the state your team was in, yes.

[Thor665]

And the Werewolves shot town PR's 3/4 nights, so their shooting wasn't bad either.

I agree that their shooting was less bad than Mafias..

Depends on your endgame - but I hardly think 'lack of cross kills' is an empty commentary about town's loss in this game.
Do you disagree?

It most certainly played a part, I'll grant you.

What else do you think played a part?
Because 1/2 Vig kills and 4/7 Lynches being accurate and 2 stopped kills is *not* bad town play. Town, over 50% of the time, was dealing with scum.
9/9 Scum kills being on town, however, is fairly devastating. Scum, 100% of the time, was not cross killing in a game built to balance via cross kills.

Axle was really the only one particularly suspicious of me - I agree a WW crosskill could arguably have worked better but I felt WW's would be searching for crosskills on the last Mafia and at least one of them might townread me enough to not shoot me. Them consolidating reads seemed likelier to end up with TSO-town than a paranoid lone gunner.

There was a point where a town shot put Mafia into Lylo and a Wolf shot would have not done that - you are claiming that you chose the non functional shot.
There was then a second point where a town shot would, again, put Mafia to sort of a shooting lylo and a wolf shot would not have done that, and you again claim that you chose to take the less functional shot.
I don't debate that you won, and I don't disagree that you had no reason at all to shoot who you did. That doesn't change them from being sub-optimal kill choices.

[Thor665]

I am claiming that I felt confident enough that I would not be lynched in LyLo with Axle dead that the shot became optimal for me.

That was meaningless unless you knew who the Wolves were.

In relation to your second point - the Pine shot, presuming Pine killed (and why would he not), would have put me directly into 3-man LyLo - which was the best case scenario for me. Killing town, and presuming Pine would do the same (which would have been the case) would put me to 1:1:1 Kingmaker... so how exactly is Kingmaker optimal as opposed to 3-man LyLo? Especially since, if Nero was alive, he would quite probably have chosen the not-me scum faction to win?

I agree, after the choice to shoot town the nights before, shooting Wolf successfully at that stage was your best strategy to win as Mafia.

[Thor665]

Because whether or not you were lynched had nothing to do with you then having enough sway to create plurality on a Wolf nor of the Wolves having multiple chances to take you out.

[Thor665]

I see and understand your stated logic, I disagree with it as 'the best shot' and have explained why.
I will agree that if you thought he was Wolf it was assuredly your best shot.

[Thor665]

dave was obvTown. Lynching obvTown in a multiball game is very very bad of Town.

I agree that lack of crosskills was the main reason Town DID lose. Reason Town DESERVED the loss is a bit of a different thing.

Was Dave obv. town to you the same way I was obv. scum? Don't mistake strength of your reads with accuracy as should be perceived by the entire game. His lynch wagon contained an expected random selection percentage of town/scum. it was not a scum driven wagon, and enough town supported it to not make it look like an insane wagon either - especially considering some of the other options that had been run up that day.

On occasions when town is doing as well as you describe, exactly how should scum adjust their shooting over their stock standard game plan?
More shots at the playing well team? Seems kind of obvious.

I would agree - but at a time when Wolves were the faction doing the best, Mafia is on record as shooting for town on purpose. Twice.

[Thor665]

Town didn't play well but got dragged along by the hugely unbalanced setup and when that failed and they had to actually scumhunt they lost. Reviewers were high when they decided to look at this setup.

I will agree with you that the setup was a bit narf.
Doesn't mean that you should overlook the number of town who were fingering scum *prior* to me spotting the setup narf. I did that stuff to find support for my beliefs, not to learn them.

Thor, really, you need to look at other peoples perspectives on things. You need to assess people on their interpretation and meaning not the interpretation and meaning you intended unless you correct them. If you correct them don't then ask why they asked the question when the answer is they were using their interpretation and meaning. You did it with PV (badly) You did it with me also. I am fairly sure you were doing it on D2 also.

I ask those questions to understand the thought process. I am fine with it if you start from a bad premise, but I want to understand the thought process regardless.
Thank you for admitting that I did clarify myself early and functionally though once I understood people misunderstood me - I hope the people voting me over that pay attention next time

[Thor665]

I agree with Slandaar that Thor's saying scum shooting was terrible was wrong - the proof was this was that at 6 alive 3 were scum. If bad shooting gets you to that scenario, I need to do it a lot more.

I would agree with you if all the scum were on the same team.

[Thor665]

Yeah, the powers have certainly expanded the scope of that rule to the point I go almost silly mum about things.
I'm still gunshy about pointing out that someone is posting in other games because that's admission that other games are happening and there was a period they were cracking down on that.