Mini 476: Pariah's GBH Mafia - Game Over!

[Pariah]

Why are you guys stealing all my stuff?

[Pariah]

Vote: Pariah

People need your stuff.

You misunderstand; I feel bad for the people stealing my stuff.

[Pariah]

So, foolish thieves, stealing my cursed jewels...

I'm most interested in seeing what randomness came from Guildpact.

Also, word of advice: avoid FoSing/variants like the plague. Unless we need them to win the game. Then we might want to do that.

[Pariah]

Hmm...are you hinting that something was used involving roles that are affected /affect the use of FoSes?

I can't hint at something that is a fact. <_<

In one game, guy Y read "unlynchable, 10 FoSes = Death. One game, if you FoSed X so many times, YOU blew up.

And, I don't remember a game where I demanded people to speak with terrible grammar, but I suppose it's possible. It was probably in Guildpact. (No offense ChocolateAttack, but that post is a grammatical nightmare.)

[Pariah]

Oh, wait, Nocmen, if you're asking that if I know their in this game, no. I just think D1 explosions for no reason are probably a bad idea, and it was odd enough it might make a return appearance.

[Pariah]

I'm thinking that major differences would be cause for alarm, though. Slight variance is expected, but if say Caralad became a vanilla doctor, that'd be suspicious.

I think it'll be worth discussing more when we have a larger sample of dead roles. Of course, we might get an improbable choice, or have iconic things intentionally left out, but, that's the breaks.

Also, Zin, my role didn't give me which game it was from.

[Pariah]

I have, and I knew that there were the roles that were affecting the FoSes...I was thinking that Pariah would know if there would be a role like that just due to the fact that he would be one.

Then, looking again, I realized who I was talking to.

I know you from where?

[Pariah]

you guys understand my post right? and i don't know but can i type in informal way like i did because i get use to it?

I have to make an effort to understand it.

Please type grammatically correct sentences. Hard to play mafia otherwise.

[Pariah]

I rarely used posting restrictions. I don't believe any role forced someone to do that. I would have to check, but it doesn't ring bells. If it exists, it's from Guildpact, most likely, or a severely altered form of possibly Jediwesty of MPFG II.

The only other posting restriction I remember was "you cannot post."

Fun times, fun times.

[Pariah]

So, foolish thieves, stealing my cursed jewels...

I'm most interested in seeing what randomness came from Guildpact.

Also, word of advice: avoid FoSing/variants like the plague. Unless we need them to win the game. Then we might want to do that.

FoS: Pariah

.....

There's roles in the past which have killed FoSers and FoSees. Forgotten by myself, but easily seeable in the old threads in Ghost 3, there was a cult leader that got more powerful with each FoS someone cast.

Baaaad move, Threepwood.

Vote: BillyTwilight

[Pariah]

I refrain from answering the question as it possibly would give unnecessary information about my role.

As for the question given to Zindaras, perhaps a game claim would be interesting.

[Pariah]

I'm kind of puzzled why that would make it into the museum.

I don't believe all the roles do insanely silly things, or were the most outlandish of the stuff I've made, but I'm wondering why

burglar

would make it in. All it is was "burglar" plus "miller." I think the Wiki back in the day even had "occasionally is a miller, because they steal stuff." That really isn't much of a greatest bastard hit.

The only logical thing I can see from that was maybe at the time it was revolutionary, as games there previously did not contain anything beyond vanilla citizens, cops, or doctors.

The miller thing is probably somewhat of an overreaction to claim here. There have been a stupidly high amount of bad PO figures in those games, and I doubt people would get lynched on cop claims alone. Miller also appeared occasionally as well as a rider to roles, as well as roles that mess with cop results, so it certainly wouldn't be a shocking claim.

As for the vote, you did something I believed was unwise and minorly scummy, and at that point, it was the most significantly negative thing to happen so far. (Unless you count bad grammar as a reason for voting.) Who knows if it'll only take one FoS? And, remember, there was that one role that was pro scum that got stronger with each FoS made.

Your general reaction and your roleclaim afterwards have me more interested than the original action itself.

[Pariah]

What else did Ghost have? For a large part, Ghost was reusing roles from the Mafia wiki (though I'll admit that there are a couple of roles that I think are bigger hits than the Burglar). Also, the Burglar did play a nice little role in the original Ghost.

I also (and more importantly than the last argument) don't think Alky only used the real great hits, as that would lead to a somewhat unbalanced game. I'd compare this game to ChatMafia Mafia, Alky's last game. While there were some outlandish roles in the game, it also had a basic doc and a basic roleblocker. I reckon the same principle will work on this game. A couple of basic roles, a couple of awesome roles.

Burglar is essentially a "non-hit" though as I did nearly nothing with it. I would have expected a variant of the FoS Mafiate, Silent Ghost, Pregnant Mother, rework of a Scientist before the burglar even. Alko has a

lot

of weird PO variants allowed to him to pick from. (More than any other role, probably.) Burglar seems an odd choice.

It'd be rather hard to fake being a burglar, though. Unless Alko made the burglar scum. Of course, that's entirely subjective as what the scum group would be in this game is totally unknown, if it even has a theme.

[Pariah]

I think this is another reason to claim the way I did. I'd rather have it out in the open now than be lynched because of a guilty investigation, then have you guys turn around and lynch the cop too. Might have ended up with 2 town deaths because of one bad investigation. I can't put myself in that situation. The fact that so many have already said it's weird for this role to be in the game is evidence for it being GOOD for me to RC now. If you guys think that its unlikely to be in the game at this point, how would you have thought about it if I showed up guilty in an investigation on day 3 or 4 when we might be in LyLO. Can't take the chance that you simply wouldn't believe the RC then and lynch me, ending the game. Like I said, I'd rather be lynched now than later.

Like I said before, I doubt that anyone is going to lynch anyone on cop result alone. And also doubt we'd instalynch a cop for a bad result.

I don't know if I exactly agree with the "my role is improbable, so it was good to claim now" logic.

Another train of thought has also occurred to me; Alko put this in as a sort of inverse improbable role, kind of like if he had added vanilla townie or something from a random game I didn't make.

[Pariah]

Nocmen; I still don't quite follow, but I think I get your point.

The more I think about it, the less I entertain the idea that Billy's claim is fake. I don't see how he extends his life more than a few days maximum, and he wasn't in extremely deep trouble to do something like that.

[Pariah]

Nocmen; I still don't quite follow, but I think I get your point.

The more I think about it, the less I entertain the idea that Billy's claim is fake. I don't see how he extends his life more than a few days maximum, and he wasn't in extremely deep trouble to do something like that.

Then why are you keeping your vote on him?

To be honest, I think this whole Billy-wagon is based on very very little.

Why would I unvote there? Even though there is very, very little, there is very, very little other than it at the moment, and out of a pile of nothing I think I'll take minor something. At that moment, there were three votes, as well.

However, I really disliked death_omen's post. The roleclaim is fishy, but in my opinion, it'd be really hard for scum to follow through with that, and it's a fourth vote on him. I'm not exactly thrilled with Mr. Bill, but I don't like him having four votes after that.

Unvote: Twilight

[Pariah]

Damien's not the lynch for today?

I assume you mean Mr. Twilight?

[Pariah]

I find Zindaras's post slightly amusing. He says JaC made a good catch, but JaC himself says it's only a third vote. Zindaras also says he made reasoning which conflicted with his earlier statements; I don't see conflicting reasoning from JaC's "catch," but instead a vote delay.

Of course, that's really just semantics. I like giving Zindaras a hard time. <_<

I'd like to hear from Mr. Aceiks.

[Pariah]

My point, Mr. Fluffykitten, is that you said JaC made a good catch but the reasons you provided differed.

You a bit ruffled?

[Pariah]

I'm aware of the contradiction, Mr. Fluffykitty.

As I said, my

slight

amusement was based on the oddness of the post, which you have admitted was off in wording.

...

Do you think I'm in a big hurry to attack you, Mr. Zindaras?

[Pariah]

Pressure Vote: Creampuffeater

until he contributes.

Tomorrow is usually fine, except when the deadline is very soon approaching.

[Pariah]

hey Pariah, would of love to have posted yesterday, but I had just a couple minutes before i had to go to camp, and it was the overnight so there was no computer for probably 10 miles all around. I agree with JaC and Zindie though, often slips like that are VERY telling, and I am going to place a third vote.

Unvote, Vote Aceiks

.

Understandable. But it's probably understandable why I made my vote, too.

Unvote: CPE

I'm disliking the Billy lynch over the Aceiks in comparison. I would actually like to hear

from

Aceiks, but since he seems to not be talking, and to prevent any Billy deadline shenanigans,

Vote: Aceiks

.

[Pariah]

You should not utilize the ability WhoMe?. I'm surprised you didn't try to look up it was it did if you were pro town. Turing someone to a zombie worked every third night or night that was a multiple of three and they died in death posts as "zombie aligned," covering over the alignment.

I find that you used the ability without looking up what it did very suspect.

[Pariah]

They still retained their original alignment, but still. Covering up alignment destroys potential information for the town.

I guess Alko could have tweaked it, though.

And, as I recall, the original zombie was Nosy G in MPFG II, and a member of the mafia, although at this stage of the game we don't really know if that's relevant in anyway what so ever.

[Pariah]

Oh, and yes. Anyone who became a zombie could also use the zombie ability.

[Pariah]

You believe the findings are fairly damning, Zindaras?

Burglars in my games have usually been exceptionally misleading and unhelpful. Why buck that now? And while I can't think of many roles that would yield that kind of result in general, there is one I can think of that is pro town, although you'd have to think of a pretty obscure role. (Zombie is one of the other ones I'd expect could pull off that result, but we've had one that claimed.)

I don't think claiming is anywhere near necessary.

I find it suspicious that you seem so quick to go after me, Mr. Fluffykitten, on such little and most likely misleading evidence.

[Pariah]

All the roles we've seen so far have had their original alignment. I'm personally inclined to generalize that statement for the entire game.

We've seen two people die. I think this is way too quick to make that statement. I also dislike that you say you think WhoMe is a good lynch based upon this train of thought. You also blow off HK, who has breadcrumbed something and then pointed it out blatantly that he had done so.

WhoMe?. can you target yourself with your ability or another zombie? If so, simply have Zindaras and WhoMe run into each other each night. I also am pondering the possibility that zombies work differently now, as it going off night one was a bit odd and if it worked consistently, it'd be somewhat terribly anti-town broken.

[Pariah]

Oh, and Billy's burglary does make sense with my role, which is a plus from him, although it's inclusion with HK's statements is confusing.

[Pariah]

EBWOP: Zombie is one of those ones I would expect for that burglarly result, but it wasn't pro town.

[Pariah]

What are you basing this on? Because I think they were by no means exceptionally misleading and unhelpful. Yeah, you have a reputation for cops with misleading results, but, as you yourself said when we were designing Ghost 3, you have to give the town something to make up for it.

Arguing with me over why I did things probably would not be a venture you'd want to take.

Burglar was not one of those roles to help the town. Off the top of my head, the burglar in Ghost stole an old and tattered doctor's jacket from the mafia doctor.

Here's the burglar list for MPFG II. (Amusingly, Alkohaulec. Perhaps that's why we saw a new burglar?)

Let's see.

If Al robs Catriona, he will find a cat fur.

Points to Zindaras, misleading at best. Based upon a pun in a name.

If Al robs LatentSanity, he will find a straightjacket.

Not particularly amazing or bad.

If Al robs Mistform Dragon, he will find a jar full of an ethereal, misty haze.

I didn't even get this until I stopped to think about it.

If Al robs Duskyblue, he will find a tiara.

References the tiara, rather useful.

If Al robs AjaxUD, he will find a gallon of bleach.

Clear point to Ajax.

If Al robs Pacone, he would find a broken mirror, but due to insanity, Pacone robs Al instead and takes a bottle of booze from him, and then Alko will be stabbed himself.

Pacone was silly, wasn't he.

If Al robs Bounty Hunter Pilot, he will find plane keys.
If Al robs Caralad, he’ll find the feather of a gryphon.

Tells almost nothing about role nature.

If Al robs Zammm, he’ll find a ship in a bottle.

Very, very vague and subtle reference to Zammm, and not even the role.

If Al robs Jediwesty, he’ll find a lightsaber.

Points to Jedi.

If Al robs Just A Cleric and Skyhunter, he’ll find green pipes.

Tells almost nothing role nature.

If Al robs Rhox, he’ll find a shark tooth.

Nothing to do with anything, really.

If Al robs Shashakiro, he’ll find corroded and burnt steel.

Considering Shashakiro's role was pretty much publically available at the first second of the game, not exactly useful.

If Al robs JCP, he’ll find a gun.

JCP was a gunsmith. This is exceptionally misleading to vig, PO, or scum.

If Al robs Jay, he’ll find a bottle of caffeine pills.

Gives away name, not role.

If Al robs Merestil Haye, he’ll find a cloak.

Gives away name, not role.

f Al robs WrathofMegs, he’ll find a City of Brass.

This is was so obscure no one got it.

If Al robs Bounty Hunter Elite Bodyguard, he’ll find a nightstick

Nightstick would imply cop. Misleading.

If Al robs himself, he finds a bottle of booze.

Robbing yourself is pretty worthless.

If Al robs Bethelmark, he’ll find a set of really old crumpled notes with illegible handwriting.

This really doesn't give you nature of role or name.

If Al robs PariahKing, he’ll find a crown.
If Al robs K-Scope, he’ll find a glass lens.

Names.

If Al robs Nosy G, he’ll find rotting flesh.

This would have been useful if there were not hordes of zombies running around every morning.

If Al robs Hylian, he’ll find heavy outdoors man boots.

This goes with the role but tells nothing of nature or name.

If Al robs Ben 50-50, he’ll find blueprints to a hotel.

Gives name.

If Al robs KotD, he’ll find a grand scepter.

Only makes sense if you know the role. Gives no name or role info.

If Al robs P’Tog, he’ll find a severed eyeball.

No one got this. No one.

If Al robs The Unwritten, he’ll find a blank journal.

Only makes sense if you know who the target was.

If Al robs Kavu Overlord, he’ll find a purple robe.

"Lynch me please."

If Al robs KetchupBoy, he’ll find a bottle of ketchup.
If Al robs GP, he will find a feather.

Names.

Those results did not seem particularly useful. Most of them wouldn't even lead you to a correct guess of the nature of the role and name. Notice how none gave out "alignment?"

Just generally look at the history of investigative roles in my games. They were normally almost always terrible, burglar included.

All of the roles I can think of are scum, mostly the Ghost and Zombie roles you used.

Ghosts don't have bones or flesh. You would have to steal a body part from a zombie which would make things awkward for the zombie, although still possible.

And I actually can think of another pro town role that involves dead flesh and bones beyond my own. You're simply not trying hard enough.

Little and likely misleading? According to you, there's only one obscure pro-town role that can give this result, as opposed to the multiple scum roles that can give this result. I think that's pretty telling.

Like what? Ghosts don't have bones. Thinking about it further, what's the zombie going to do if you steal his bone? Walk around with one leg? And, like above, two now.

We have two dead people, plus my own role. That's 3/12, 25%. That's already a fairly solid representation. Add to that the fact that Alky's previous game was

also

based on previous games (ChatMafia Mafia), and, as far as I know, none of those roles flipped alignment, and I think there's a fairly solid basis for the statement.

Hello, Zindaras, you are playing

Pariah's Greatest BASTARD Hits.

It would entirely be in character to make the entire game work that way minus one role. That's a damn dangerous assumption to try and push. We could kill a pro town player easily on that alone or let a scumbag walk away with the game as confirmed. And 25% of something isn't as impressive when you have a sample group of 3. My role was pro town in it's original incarnation, and the same now, but obviously you can't trust me on that nor can I trust you on it.

Did you play in all the chat mafias? Chat Mafia is a lot harder to check to see for alignment swapping. We can't prove or disprove your statememnt, unless Alko wants to help us out. And that obviously wasn't a bastard game.

I'd be more concerned with precedents I'd set than Alko.

Katy is a female name.

And, personally, I don't see Katy's breadcrumb as extremely relevant. A Burglar claim is incredibly hard to fake (unless you're the Cult Leader, as we saw in Ghost 3, but then the targets usually get "confirmed" rather than results like this). So his claim isn't fake. And his result? Well, sure, he could be lying about his result, but then he'd just be doing a 1-for-1, and 1-for-1's are still a bad idea. Even if Billy's scum, it is extremely likely that his result is truthful.

A burglar claim is hard to fake unless you're a pro scum burglar. Or you're a pro scum name cop, which would involve a switch of JCP to pro scum and easily generates burglar items by looking at the name. Billy could be either of the two and claim on day one as miller to avoid random investigation death. I normally wouldn't question it very much but HK having gone out of her way to make a deal of it is interesting.

Me claiming is not necessary nor would it be in the town's interests.

I refuse to do it. I'm disliking the majority of what you're posting. Keep this up and you'll end up with my vote.

[Pariah]

Maybe because most townies don't have rancid, flesh-covered bones on them? Every role I can think of that would give that result is scum.

It's like your intentionally trying to be close minded, or you've forgotten you're in a game made of roles by me, where improbable and misleading flavor was king.

[Pariah]

Also, major red flag on Zindaras. He says he can think of all the ghosts in Ghost Mafia. (And, I guess since ghosts were corporal somewhat, you could make an argument for one having bones and rancid flesh, although that was never really explained and confusing.) There were pro town ghosts in Ghost Mafia, and you knew that as you played in it. The lynch of pro town ghost Caralad was exceptionally memorable.

I think you're just trying to push a lynch on me.

[Pariah]

I kind of dislike the "I could just be bastard modded" comment. As scum, it could be done to kill off Billy, who could be perceived by the scum as a threat, and then get off scott free saying, "Oh, well, I was bastard'd."

[Pariah]

Oh, yeah. I'm going to be working/school comboing 7 AM to 9 PM so my activity is going to be limited. Harshly so. I warned Alko and Zindaras of this before. I'll play unless other people find this exceptionally unreasonable.

[Pariah]

This isn't MPFG II. The role selection for this game is limited. All the roles are from previous games, which means we know a lot better which results belong to which roles.

Missing my point. Burglar's precedent has not to been to function as an alignment seeking through damning evidence role. And MPFG II was limited to posters in MPFG as well, but people weren't able to figure out the clues regardless. (An eye?!)

If he had found a cat fur, a tiara, or a ship in a bottle, I would've agreed with you. Those say nothing about alignment. But a bone with rotting flesh on it tends to be in possession of evil people, not good people. In your example, this is true as well. Nosy is scum.

Here's a great example of why you're wrong. Bill Cosby in Scientific Mafia, a role designed by me but run by MiDra, was pro town. (Famous SK on site.) Evil people are not always evil roles. You are making an assumption on a weak pretenses and know better.

You're ignoring that Nosy was scum, but he zombified other people. They, when robbed, I do believe, also had bones and such taken from them. And zombie aligned did not equate to evil aligned, as such in the case of Caralad. In fact,

zombie were a huge red herring.

In the original Ghosts, the Ghost Mafia clawed and shot their victims to death. Your Friendly Neighbourhood Zombie (Ghost 3) left rotten bits of flesh on the ground surrounding its kills, according to the Mod Notes.

#1: Ghosts didn't walk around with their bones from their victims in their pockets. And where's the bullets then?
#2: Yeah, no bones there either. But I don't see how YFNZ has anything to do with my point on Ghosts.

Oh, really?

Yep. One of the reasons why I dislike your play so much.

Hello, Zindaras, you are playing

Pariah's Greatest BASTARD Hits.

It would entirely be in character to make the entire game work that way minus one role. That's a damn dangerous assumption to try and push. We could kill a pro town player easily on that alone or let a scumbag walk away with the game as confirmed. And 25% of something isn't as impressive when you have a sample group of 3. My role was pro town in it's original incarnation, and the same now, but obviously you can't trust me on that nor can I trust you on it.

I am aware of this. However, even following this train of thought, it is only logical to suspect WhoMe. You're basically saying that I can't find him suspicious because there's the off chance (1 out of 12 out of the chance that Alky would change alignments) that he's town. No, it should be the other way around. There is a pretty large chance that WhoMe is just scum, as the only situation in which he's town is if Alko decided to not just change a role's alignment, but this specific role's alignment.

Stop looking at from a flawed mathematical perception, please. You and I both know that there really isn't a 1 out of 12 chance. Hell, we don't even know if WhoMe's zombification works the same. Maybe it's a cult that dies a zombie aligned. That'd be an exceptionally potent twist. Maybe they die with original alignment intact.

I think it's somewhat odd to suspect WhoMe instantly considering that the original nature of the zombie thing was to fool people, thus why I exposed zombie players.

The roles that I know had no alignment swaps.

Also, why are you so sure this

is

a bastard game?

It's called Pariah's Greatest Bastard Hits.

Yes, the roles

you know.

You're not really in a position to make that statement as you're not aware of all the roles.

Vote: Zindaras

For the bold as the straw breaking the camel's back. That is simply a ridiculous thing to try and pull. It's in the title of the damn game. I was a prolific bastard mod. It was my trademark. There are probably more bastard roles than not to select from. It is apparent to me you are simply trying to use anything of any nature in an attempt to discredit me without care to the legitimacy of your arguments.

Also, the opening post is a pretty techy thing to read, isn't it?

Welcome one and all to the

Hall of Fame of Pariah's Greatest Bastard Hits!

As many of you should know, since you're here, Pariah loves hosting games

with bastard roles

that shouldn't reasonably be used. We have now

brought you to all of these roles

to basque in their magnificience and glory once again. The following links are all games Pariah has contributed or solely designed or modded, and from these games will be the possible roles included in this one. Actualy role mechanics and alignments may be tweaked to protect the guilty and incriminate the innocent as necessary.

It's based on your roles. That's it. You didn't design this game. It's quite obvious that Alky uses different roles, as I seriously doubt you'd have used more than one of the roles as they're claimed now in your version of the game.

My roles. Exactly. My very often bastard roles. All of the roles that have appeared so far are roles I have used. Bartender, for example, was something I created. The Zombie. My role. We have confirmation of bastardness in the zombie and for me personally in the misleadingness of the burglar role.

Alkohaulec and I obviously value things differently, but I doubt Alko has decided to throw the purpose of the game out.

You didn't design this game. Alko did. I daresay the game was quite obviously not designed by you.

Alko is confined to working within the box of my past designs and the precedents I set. Obviously Alko is going to leave his own touch in places, but this is a retread of what I've done in the past.

Yes, Billy's role being switched is a possibility. However, that doesn't make his results any less true. He won't fake them. I agree it is too hasty to clear him on the basis of his role (just like it is too hasty to clear anyone on the basis of a provable role), but I think his results are fairly believable.

Well, rather duh. His results

are

fairly believable. I've said so myself and I'm an investigatee. The method is in question.

I agree with you on this one, Mr. King, if only partly. You're not my top suspect right now. So it's not good for you to claim until we lynch him.

And tomorrow I expect you to claim.

Nope. Not doing it. You will see Hell itself freeze over before I claim on your demand over these piddly, silly reasons.

The ghost Mafia from Ghost Mafia. They would have bones with them. Bones of other people. I don't see the bone Billy stole from you as being your bone.

They weren't bone collectors. Nothing ever implied that they kept bones or flesh. This is like saying any mafiate, like say, PariahKing from MPFG II could be the culprit because they killed people. Or saying a vig, because vigs killed people. Why can't I be a vig with this logic? Why don't my more insane forced vig types who never were implied to collect bones be possible answers? Probably because it's not convenient for what you're trying to portray me as.

[Pariah]

@Zindaras: Obviously, don't pull back punches or ignore things, but I'd appreciate it if you kept things as concise as short as possible. Neither you nor I enjoys playing war as attrition.

[Pariah]

Anyway, I think I got sidetracked for a bit there.
I just think that this PK/Zin argument is the old-fashioned both same alignment, different view argument.

Ah, but this has key differences.

In all those old-fashioned arguments, who was the firestarter? Me. It was almost always over a bit of disagreement on logic, not investigation results. (Similar, but not the same.)

This is highly different because Zindaras is kicking sand in

my

face and is trying very heavily to make me look bad, with several statements like "don't see how this role isn't someone evil," etc. A reverse of the normal situation. Why is that scummy? Because of Zindaras's reasoning on it and the basis for it. It's not my behavior, I haven't seen a post documenting on how I've been having pro scum. It's the result from Billy alone. The result from Billy, as I have documented, is not an alignment reveal of scum. His comments like "we don't know this is a bastard game" are troublesome. He tries stretching things beyond belief.

That's unusual and definitely not your typical Zindaras/PK argument.

Truth be told, I don't pretend to know within my hearts of hearts that Zindaras must be scum thrown over a flag pole and thusly beaten to death, but I dislike his play here and I don't see a better candidate at the moment, with HK not being clear and I'm of the mind CPE is more of a replacement/mod issue.

[Pariah]

I think JaC, Sacred, and even Zindaras will disagree with you Billy that posting extremely detailed cases is against my MO as pro town

or

pro scum and do it regardless of alignment. Zindaras basically accused me of being scum, which is a serious allegation. I provided lots of evidence to why the result did not, in fact, condemn me as scum.

In fact, Mr. BT, you will see in a just a moment that I do this quite often. :V

I don't see a lot of things about this situation plausible. First of all, you are making an assumption that HK was reading the thread and came on before you posted, which she easily could not have been doing so. I have myself gone for days without posting here. This is not exactly an active thread, and she might not have seen it been updated until after your post. Second, she could have not known you were "lying" until after your post, or disliked a particular aspect of it which broke her decision in deciding to do it, like for example it appeared somewhat incriminating. (As an aside, a particular role sticks out in my mind here as to why all things could be truth but you were at the same time leaving something out making HK suspicious.)

Third, if HK said beforehand that she thought you were lying, you could adapt

your

claim around it. I don't see how posting it after WhoMe's post is so odd. Fourth, there is the possibility of both of you being pro town and the bastardness factor, although that is really a given and not really an essential part of the argument I have with your post.

You assume that HK is playing bad. As far as I know, HK is not a bad player, of at least moderate skill. (I have not heard of HK very often before this, but I have not heard anything bad and have read parts of her play in a game or two.)

Everyone makes mistakes, I suppose. But your result definitely wasn't anywhere near that damning. You didn't even think so in your post.

I targeted Pariah last night. I stole a bone covered in stinking rancid flesh from him. I targeted Pariah not because I was especially suspicious of him, but because I wanted someone the most familiar with how these roles work who might be able to confirm me. Secondly, it's very easy in a game like this to rely too much on a player with as much experience as Pariah has in these kind of games. I have a feeling that we are going to rely on Pariah a lot and I wanted as much information about his role as I could reasonably get on the table.

I would have to say, if HK is my scum buddy, she is playing pretty awful. She is not only not letting me die if she thinks this will kill me, she is making an attempt to save me. This is effectively saying she decided to go with a plan of, "Hey, a PO-type investigated a buddy and he will die, I should kill myself to delay his death." One for one in a normal sized game is bad. Two for one in a mini is stupidly bad.

This also assumes she knee jerks. 2.5 hours is a lot of time to see a post and then make a bad knee jerk decision. Not to mention this means she didn't contact me. Clearly, as I've demonstrated, this was not an issue for me whatsoever to argue against Zindaras's attacks stemming from the burglarly thing and I would have told her not to bother claiming some weirdness. Please explain to me why I tell HK as my scum partner to claim something so random. I don't see this working unless we

ass out of u and me

several things.

Also, let's look again. If me and HK are scumbuddies, why in the world do I claim that your results are fitting with my role if HK is set up to say that you're lying? (This especially makes no sense if we planned this all out instead of knee jerk.)

Why am I and HK so concerned with the investigative role anyway in a clearly bastard game? Or, for that matter, why don't I just claim a pro town role that fits with that? (This would not have been a problem.)

I suppose near the end this is WIFOM in some ways, but there are so many ifs and buts and assumptions that you have in this that honestly I don't think it's plausible in the least.

[Pariah]

EBWOP: I would have to say, if HK is my scum buddy, she is playing pretty awful. This is a total overreaction. She is not only not letting me die if she thinks this will kill me, she is making an attempt to save me. This is effectively saying she decided to go with a plan of, "Hey, a PO-type investigated a buddy and he will die, I should kill myself to delay his death." One for one in a normal sized game is bad. Two for one in a mini is stupidly bad.

[Pariah]

I didn't say it was against your MO. I don't know your MO. So without that information I have to go by what's in the thread, and to me it seemed like an overreaction to Zindy's allegations against you.

My MO is to "overract" to everything. (Well, not exactly. But you get what I mean.)

I agree, it's possible. But I think that it's awfully coincidental if an accident. For someone who might not be actively reading the thread, she was quickest to respond to day 2 starting and quickest to respond to my initial day 2 post. I'd be surprised to find that she just happened to find the thread open and started conversation on day 2, went away for a while, and just happened to check on the thread again right after my first post, and it would just happen to be that she had some night information about me that she decided to post right when she just happened to look at the thread and, behold!, I was the last person to post. Add to that she had asked a question of the players regarding WhoMe? in her first post; you think she wasn't checking to see what other players' responses were to that post?

It’s possibly awfully coincidental as well as it is definitely unprovable, unless we ask HK and trust her to be honest. For example, the other day, I saw this post, but didn’t get to respond because I got a phone call and by the time I finished, it was time for bed. Timing issues are a mess.

But, I could concede this entire argument and I don’t feel like it’d do much.

You're stretching here. Look at my post (#142). Do you see anything there that might have triggered that kind of reaction? I simply posted my *investigation* results and my reasons for targeting you. How this would give her something that would cause her doubt about my claim is beyond me. I do find it interesting that you're feeding her excuses for her actions instead of letting her answer them herself, though.

If you had not posted something that might changed the outcome of your result, or would possibly create more results.

You are (or heavily imply that you are) voting Ms. HK on the basis that we are scummates. I am defending myself through "defending" her as I am arguing against the connection. Parts of this do not seem to include me, but are used to formulate your foundations to suspect me. Thus, I must argue against what builds the foundation. I am not defending HK as I am defending myself against the possible HK/PK scum group.

(As an aside, a particular role sticks out in my mind here as to why all things could be truth but you were at the same time leaving something out making HK suspicious.)

Care to share? Of all the possible roles Alko had to choose from you probably won't be giving anything away, considering you might not have any more information about a players specific role than anyone else in the game, but you do have a better familiarity of the working set of possible roles than the rest of us. In fact, you have several times in this game claimed you could *think* of a role that might do this or that, but then you haven't given that information to the players. If you were town, I think it would be better to be forthcoming with these ideas that don't stem from your role in this game, rather than cloaking them in ambiguity.

If I was town, I wouldn’t want to claim for people without their approval. Let’s say I’m right about my suspicions, and I post what role could fill this niche. This alerts the scum to a power role.

To be honest, though, if the role I am thinking of is HK, then HK is being unreasonable, and it’s not as much a lie as it is a “sin of omission.”

Third, if HK said beforehand that she thought you were lying, you could adapt

your

claim around it.

And how exactly would I do that? If she said I was lying about something, would I then change the claim I had made? After saying that I had claimed fully? That would have gone over real well for me, wouldn't it.

Well, I probably shouldn’t have used the word claim. I meant the results and particular scenario of your role. For example, if you have a scum buddy that is a burglar that is feeding you information, but you yourself are playing a role that does not go outside of the house or do an action. HK is a tracker and sees that you did not leave the house, even though you posted accurate information.

Remember, you

are

a claimed miller. These things aren’t beyond the stretch of imagination for someone with an investigation result.

Please also try to look at this from the viewpoint of a neutral party for the sake of hypothetical discussions.

Agree here, we could be being bastard-modded to hell. But I can't play thinking that everything that happens in thread might be backwards than I what I think I see.

Right. But we must not walk right into traps as well. A moderate balance is needed.

Huh? Since when can scum talk out of thread during the day phase?

That’s what I get for

ass out of u and me

, apparently. All of the games I’ve played in for a long stretch have been “scum can talk during day.” I research the subject of the last game I was in that Alko hosted and indeed…

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><><>
LatentSanity(Zindaras) –. You are LatentSanity, Psyhiatric Hospital Staff, Mafia Aligned.

You are mafia with Nis, MT_Gunn and _Sacred_. Nis is MiDra, the Chief of the Psychiatric Hospital Staff, MT_Gunn is Wizo_Chaos, a staff member, and _Sacred_ is Rhox, an Insane Staff member recruited for your services.

You may only speak to each other at night.

You, MT_Gunn, and Nis may speak at night with each other, however you may not speak directly to _Sacred_. _Sacred_ was in fact one of the insane members, before you realized that you could use his insanity to your benefit. The only problem with this is you are forced to keep limited communication with _Sacred_, and do so by sending him messages. Send the message you want to send to _Sacred_ to me, and I’ll pass it off to _Sacred_. You two have chosen this method of conversation with _Sacred_ because as he is insane, Nis says he can’t be fully trusted.

Nis has recruited you because he knew you would be loyal, and that he could trust you to help him remove the insanity that has spread everywhere from PK. You would do anything for Nis, and help him remove this threat any way possible.

You win when the rest of the town has been put in an insane asylum.


Notes: Sane. LatentSanity, Psychiatric Mafia Aligned Psychiatric Hospital Staff. When turned insane. Becomes lost and confused. Loses contact with the rest of the mafia, but is still a part of it.

Oh well. Rather helpful part of my argument. Pity.

Did I miss something? This whole argument doesn't make sense because scum can't talk to each other out of thread. Unless Alko is allowing it in this game... which means that only scum would know about it... hmmm.

I’ll rescind my argument, as it seems Alko has established pro scum not being able to talk during the day, unless he would care to clarify that in thread.

Using that as evidence is kind of silly. You could easily say only pro town would make that mistake as pro scum would know in advance that they could talk during night only. I wouldn’t take it as an indicator either way.

You are correct, it does hinge on HurriKaty playing poorly. But to me it makes

more sense

than us both being town.

My problem with your assumption is that you think it makes sense that I and HK are scum together. I don’t disagree that HK’s actions are weird, especially from your vantage point. From

your

standpoint assuming pro town, obviously there is something very odd with HK going on. From what we apparently know, HK is playing irrationally…regardless of alignment. I see how you could easily find HK to be pro scum, but the link you provided is very weak at best as it assumes namely a lot of things, most of which would be that she would play badly by not wait for myself to respond and knee jerking.

Now, if she can give a legitimate case that I can deal with (and I will be able to deal with it if it's legitimate) and it makes sense with us both being town then I will reconsider my vote and investigative direction. For now I see a player who specifically tried to call into question my role, flat out told us that her distrust was based on a role power, then was unable to substantiate her claims, wasn't able to tell if I was lying about a lot or a little or anything at all, and otherwise injected a lack of clarity into the discussion. Muddying the waters is a scum-tactic. Of course I see it through a much stricter viewpoint than you do because I know I'm telling the truth about my role, and I see a player who is doing a poor job of justifying trying to break the town's confidence in my claim. Here's what it comes down to. I claimed a town-aligned burglar role who showed guilty to investigations. The only thing I could be lying about is what my alignment is. She couldn't get that from a night action. I'd either show guilty or non-guilty, in which case she should be more worried about her sanity than about me *lying*. NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WHO IS TOWN ALIGNED WOULD CLAIM TO SHOW GUILTY TO INVESTIGATIONS IF THEY DIDN'T. The only other option is that I am lying about being a Burglar. Obviously I am not, because you have already substantiated that my *investigation* of you was legitimate. So either you and I are scum together or I am a burglar. What else could I be lying about?

1: You could be lying about being a burglar if you have a scum buddy who is a burglar or you are a name cop. Thus, let’s say HK is a tracker. Checks you out, finds you don’t make a choice, but get a true investigation. Leads to some odd times.
2: False dilemmas, sir, false dilemmas. You are saying that this is true or this is true. It is entirely possible that all three of us are pro town due to bastardness, (Some particular bastard things pop into my mind here; you aren’t really a miller but are told you are one, insane cop investigation finding you pro town due to millerness…all possible situations) or that you and HK are pro scum putting on a jolly good distancing show and in the process are making me look bad as an eventual final target. Thinking in that kind of confined space will only lead to trouble. As unlikely as certain things are, if we assume for sure it isn’t, we are playing a risky game.
3: I don’t agree with what HK has decided to, which is to hint repeatedly as if it was some super tell that needed no more information. In a bastard game, that’d be silly. HK should have realized it was either claim or not, because doing what she has been doing has only gotten her in trouble and not really lead us anywhere with you.

Now obviously, I’ll agree that from your viewpoint that HK is worth a vote on the basis she is accusing you of being a liar and assuming pro townness, you know yourself to not be one and therefore

she

is lying. That’s how such things go. (Assuming no bastard.) However, I still believe that your link to me and HK is based on a lot of ifs and nothing really substantial. What if HK is mafia and believed me incorrectly to be the SK from that investigation, and thought the burglar is a major threat, which lead to the hypothetical knee jerk? Very unlikely, I’d say, but I wouldn’t say it’s much more far fetched than the string you’ve proposed.

[Pariah]

Where is Mr. Fluffykitten? He's deliberately lurking or has forgotten about this thread. I've talked to him on several occasions about a different mafia game on another site and yet he has not posted her. Very, very odd...

Might we get a prod, Mr. Alko?

[Pariah]

EBWOP: 2: False dilemmas, sir, false dilemmas. You are saying that this is true or this is true. It is entirely possible that all three of us are pro town due to bastardness, (Some particular bastard things pop into my mind here; you aren’t really a miller but are told you are one, insane cop investigation finding you pro town due to millerness…all possible situations) or that you and HK are pro scum putting on a jolly good distancing show and in the process are making me look bad as an eventual final target. (Or we're all scum playing a jolly good conspiracy.) Thinking in that kind of confined space will only lead to trouble. As unlikely as certain things are, if we assume for sure it isn’t, we are playing a risky game.

[Pariah]

Pariah, this is explicitly why I voted HK and FoSed you (sorry about that, btw; I completely forgot about the FoSing thing in this game - too much a force of habit). I understand that the link between you and HK is tenuous at best, and not great evidence for your alignment. That's why I am not explicitly gunning for you right now. I've noticed what seems to be to be a connection, I think HK could be scum, and I see action that could be her trying to protect you. The weakest part, from my point of view is the last, thus the vote for her and FoS of you.

Really, I think that I need a complete explanation for HK'' actions at this point. It might help us understand this game better, anyway.

I completely forgot about the FoS thing. Meh. Unless that cult leader who got stronger with each FoS is in the game, it had no effect. (My role has nothing to do with FoSes.) And it would be rather hypocritical of me to make a deal of it when you pointed it out yourself and I had not realized it.

I suppose I have misunderstood the severity of the FoS and the reasoning behind what you did, then. I took it as HK/PK scum was an integral part of your reasoning (as it did take a lot of text and time in your post and seemed to me to be the focus).

I'm thinking that HK either needs to state she won't elaborate further and stop harassing you with no clues/context and post on other topics, or explain more, depending on her role. And it'd have to be a weird role for the former, as Pandora's Box is pretty much already halfway open. This straddling the fence isn't doing anything.

[Pariah]

Me and MoD routinely talk about phantom bowels and massive glands. He should be quite the exceptional mafia experience.

[Pariah]

If you had even bothered to look up the history of the cleric, HK, you would have seen in the past it was portrayed as a complete joke. Cleric appeared in the aptly named

O

pen

R

ole

B

astard.

I even selected the answers using a Magic 8 Ball.

The problem with this role if it's true is that is excessively powerful if implemented incorrectly (with a set of approved questions before hand), if you simply allow it to be free range and decide on a case to case to basis you're exposed to midgame bias and operating a game that is considered improper, and even if it's done well, it leads into a lot of confusing gray question areas. Assuming if you can even make a good polished list. If someone says X, and you ask is "X" saying the truth, it functions like a cop.

I mean, it's doable, but the Cleric really was simply a funny joke because the PK and PJ Connection wanted to use a Magic 8 Ball to decide role results.

...

I almost never say this but this game is going to

DIE

if we do not get strict deadlines and aggressive modding. The current one is "none." So I encourage that you limit our time, even though it would be worse for the town, on the basis of the fact we do not have a town to worry about if this game does not start moving.

[Pariah]

Actually, Pariah, I tried to search for it when I got the role, but couldn't find it. So yeah, thanks for assuming I didn't attempt it.

Though that IS a hilarious role concept, I'll give that to you.

And I'm still not going to assume that I'm absolutely bonkers, because to assume that the mod has changed nothing would be completely rash.

I suppose that was somewhat rude, but with a role like that I would think knowing the particulars would be essential. And I guess I'm in a unique position. My apologies.

Yes, assuming that the mod has changed nothing would be bad. But there are a lot of reasons why a correct working version of this role is rather broken. I am far more inclined to take it less seriously considering the large amount of evidence to BT being honest about his role and the precedence set by it, although assuming anything is certain is foolish.

[Pariah]

ALKO WHERE IS ZINDARAS?

He hasn't posted since...last month?

Thanks.

MoD is not exactly a good mafia player (no offense), so I would view his rampant...extreme wrongness as something you would compare to, say, BabyJesus on a smaller scale. It also appears he half-assed his read through and was trying to just post something. Obviously, then the problem becomes like it does with all similar circumstances: what do you lynch him for, and you have to ponder things like risks and rewards. For lack of a better lynch at deadline? MoD may be a good choice, especially if he does not contribute.
[quote=WhoMe?]
we're a long way from lynch yet. A vote is just a vote. It's not like I hammered the guy, but my thinking was, if HK's info is correct then we have found a lie. I figure that's worth a vote[/quote]The problem is we don't really have good evidence in the sense of the Cleric and its role history.

Lynching HK or Billy today probably is not the play

today.

It is entirely possible both are town. What would be best would be to give HK a bit more time to verify her results and see if she is given an obvious untruth. Obviously, that may or may not occur if it's not, however it's possible to see if it's unreliable if we are willing to wait a bit, which, at this point in the game, I don't see as unreasonable.

@Zindaras: Are You A Silent Ghost Variant? If you can answer in some way, do it. Ghost Vote me or something.

[Pariah]

That's a rather odd judgment call on your part, that I've done nothing to find scum other than attack Zindaras "for attacking me." First of all that implies OMGUS, which it clearly is not, as my arguments are substantially filled with logic, not that "I am townie, you voted for me, thus, you are scum." So you discount that based upon...? The fact it makes your opinion look better?

You're placing the burden of proof upon myself to point out that I have done nothing to help find scum. I have not aggressively posted on someone else's scumminess, however you would be quite the liar to say that I have not posted things to help us catch scum. My play is awkward to you possibly because it is very jarring, very in your face. Considering you yourself have admitted you are lost in meta terms in this game, I am sure the other players in the game will testify that I play like

that regardless of alignment, and it is not an indicator of alignment.

Why is it helpful to lynch me to confirm you? Didn't I already agree with your results? Lynching me won't prove anything further. It doesn't show that HK's lying or that there is a cop in the mafia who check role names. And it doesn't confirm alignment, only your role. This is suspicious you use the term "confirm" you when you are a miller. I dislike the implications. Especially when HK may be a

BAAAALLLER.

Rather poor logic Mr. BT on the last bit there.

And, if you'd look, I did post

repeatedly

that I was on a grind for time. I spent about all of my free time studying for tests or school work. This is a brief post that does not cover all the topics I want but I am posting to simply contribute.

Even with my constricted time, I don't regret the deadline. It was necessary to get the game going.

Confirm Vote: Zindaras

For lurking. Excessively. And the bit Nosy posted. And all the crap I posted before. And I dislike the most recent post from our burglar friend.

[Pariah]

You think it's a scum tell that I didn't attack you right out the gate or until you messed with me?

]CONTEXT.

What just happened? I dunno,

Saw Mafia

where I went insane as pro town against pro town Zindaras?

I'll claim because there is a minute chance I will be lynched for a lack of time to refute you, but more importantly, the interaction with WhoMe.

Drum roll, please, Mr. Zindaras.

My role is...



Yes, the role that when it dies it isn't revealed upon death. I'll be intentionally vague on the implications of how it can also further obscure others alignments, but feel free to look up the old incarnation from

Ravnica Mafia.

This would work well with Mr. WhoMe's role as my alignment is not going to be revealed upon death anyway. You

and

Zindaras could both target me.

Yes, you

would

expect bones with rotting flesh on them from a grave, wouldn't you? And it makes more sense than any other of the options. And it works great with a burglar. Would be a good reason to even inclusion a burglar.

We'll know when we've lynched them all. Just keep infesting people that are likely town, that already helps.

Wow, that wasn't terribly suspicious and wouldn't allow for scum to easily screw the town.

For those who have forgotten, Zindaras is a zombie as well. Unless I have gone mad and messed up my facts. I recently spent 7 hours studying for a government test, so bear with me.

[Pariah]

Teacher? Teacher was kind of a dumb role, really. Probably because when I sent it to Alko, he was missing so much. :V

Hmm.

Appears I've shown up after day is over, and that WhoMe instead of Zindaras is dying. What a pity.

You've been pro town going insane against pro town Zindaras for over two years. And now you change? I doubt it, Mr. King.

Yes, clearly, I am entirely devoid of rational thought or capability to learn from a mistake.

Yes.

Yes. I like how you respond to being made to look very foolish with "yes." Had you applied, say, effort, you could have probably found that role and not gone through all of that, instead of forcing me to claim for very bad reasons due to limited time.

I don't know if you're serious or not.

If we target people who aren't likely to be lynched anyway, there's no real problem, eh?

Yes, that was hyperbole to an extent.

The problem with what you are saying here is that you are coming off with disturbing certainty. I would hope you know that people we're not going to lynch is definitely a dynamic quality. If we zombify someone, and it works the same way as before, it discourages a lynch on that player due to the lack of information post death, unless (as it it appears to be) the town randomly wants to kill zombies forever, which really isn't feasible as instead of lynching scummy players we end up killing whoever was zombified the night before, considering the fact they (well, may, if it works like in olden days) survive one night hit.

I suppose there is a definite lack of other options available, but it's really mostly the tone. It's like in a room full of murder suspects one guy says something like it would be terrible if someone else also died tonight with a smile, and perhaps everyone should seek extra protection.

[Pariah]

You've been pro town going insane against pro town Zindaras for over two years. And now you change? I doubt it, Mr. King.

The more I think about it the more I think that this is just crappy rational from a pro scum Zindaras to try and make my opinions against him irrelevant. It's not really an answer to anything as it is simply an attempt to trip me up on the basis I don't like to be wrong, and trying to instill a fear that I might be for me personally, and to fool everyone else like it's some kind of psuedo-confirmation.

Also, for no reason really whatsoever, I feel like JaC is Zindaras's scum buddy. But, that is just a hunch, and I have to say, I normally think hunches are pretty dumb unless further substantiated. But I think I would have felt bad had I died overnight and I had not shared this random, mostly worthless thought.

[Pariah]

Information lynches are a ridiculous concept.

Didn't we

just

have this discussion? It was really involved and such and pretty much boiled down to sole information lynches are bad but can be good factors/aspect in a lynch?

I consider pretty much any vote that is not on the scummiest player (open to interpretation, of course, but that's what we have reasoning for) a scummy vote, barring the inevitable random votes.

Obviously, when the "scummiest" between two players is...do I even want to bother with this again? :V

Once we start talking about lynching people for information, for role-related reason, we cannot catch scum anymore. That is also why LAL (both versions) is a flawed concept: the moment you say "all of these people", you give Mafia an easy reason to vote people. For example, if we'd say "Let's lynch a Lurker", then what does the lynch question boil down to? "Who's the worst lurker?", that's it. It's not about catching scum anymore, it's about "catching" the worst lurker.

Confirm Vote: Zindaras

Welcome to metagame, Zindaras. Zindaras, meet anti-lying mafiascum. Mafiascum says hello. Mafiascum would like to post that since no one at mafiascum breaks LAL unless they are pro scum or bad and/or new players who will inevitably suffer from their action and not repeat it (be it by learning or due to leaving), it actually

gives

the town scum with more certainty. Since you have nearly a universal agreement to not break LAL from town, only scum players who need to lie about their roles will.

Why is your lurker example flawed? Apples and oranges. Lurking is not inherently scummy, and those people need to be replaced. If we accept lying as bad pro town play and good if not essential pro scum play, and we should, then lying is inherently scummy. So, while lynching the worst lurker is a dumb idea, because lurking is not inherently scummy or really even something players need to deal with, lynching the worst liar is a good idea, because liars are

very

likely scum, especially here at mafiascum.

You give the mafia an easy reason to vote for people is probably some of the worst logic I have ever heard in my entire life. It's on the level of "mafia r masonz." Assuming a game was going with no mafia in it, I believe a player who does a poor play would get killed by the town, that is, a town with no mafia. It's not really "mafia get easy votes." That person has given themselves a death sentence.

Everyone

votes for that guy. Pro town, pro scum, pro random.

"There are no absolutes. This statement is one."

Implied general absolutes are useful. Especially when you can selectively choose to override them. (If I said, "Lynch All Lurkers Except In Scenarios Where It Might Not Be A Good Idea And Give It Plenty Of Consideration," it would lose much of it's verbal punch.) We are not bound by LAL as if it were a cosmic law, and if for some insane reason, a game generated a scenario where it was very clear that LAL was a bad idea, then the town could simply not lynch that person.

Obviously, people have been lynched under LAL who weren't scum here, at mafiascum. How many of them probably didn't deserve to be lynched? Probably none, really. The metagame factor alone is a good reason to not lie as pro town. The concept behind LAL is not "you will always get scum if you lynch a liar," but, "the odds for getting scum if you lynch a liar are

ridiculously

good."

If someone does an action that would normally show allegiance to scum, they should get voted for it. The fact that a very low percentage of people will screw up and get themselves lynched is a more than acceptable loss. People who claim scum, people who play badly intentionally, people who just play so bad it seems intentional or come off as having no capacity for rational or logical thought, they are going to die for it. Would you argue against lynching these people because it would be easy for the mafia to vote for them? Probably not, or at least, knowing your propensity to be stubborn, probably not rationally.

Ignoring bizarre and most likely overrated fringe cases, the amount of helpful lying for pro town is probably close to zero. Obviously, the scum need to lie in pretty much every game or die, so there you go.

Sadly for Px2 Mafia, the usefulness of LAL in Px2 has been diminished because of all the rebels who think it's cool to screw up the metagame or vig people night one. Since people now think gambits involving lying, that normally can either be accomplished through other means or are simply not worth the risk reward ration, are acceptable there, Px2 is

worse off

because they can't instantly lynch a liar and know with almost assured certainty that that player is scum.

Luckily, this useful concept still remains in mafiascum.

Also, Mafiascum has confided in me that he'd like to see you hang. Mafiascum also thinks you're ugly.

[Pariah]

Hello.

I have been busy beyond my comprehension.

I'm supposing you'd like content from me. Well.......OK.

I'm going to have to concede my argument on Zindaras simply because I'm not going to have time to refute it. The only reason I even am sticking around is that I believe I am of utmost usefulness due to my intricate knowledge of the roles.

I'll pour over the information when I get the chance. My apologies. I may get time today, but if not, I'll try for tomorrow. I am just flooded with work, it's insane.

[Pariah]

Well, I actually looked back a page and saw one of my posts, so I read it all.

I'm really thinking hard, but I can't come up with something similar to what the burglar was. I want to say there was something similar in Meadows. It is probably just an Alko tweak.

My advice in a nutshell? Mass claim. No one is posting. (Obviously, including me, but still.)

[Pariah]

What are you looking for, Billy?

I believe I claimed my role completely.

[Pariah]

I didn't receive a PM or anything stating I was zombified.

The only-non humanoid? How many non-humanoid/anthropomorphic roles have I used, and how many of those were any actually good? I used a land because it was so outside of common sense. I mean, how do you lynch a land? I believe the DP was like, "you somehow managed to lynch an island, good job." The game stresses alignment ambiguity, as shown by the zombie epidemic. Watery Grave makes sense, as it and zombie are probably my two best alignment "hiders."

The idea that I am telling the truth about being WG due to the existence of the zombie is more credible than the idea that I am lying because I am a non-humanoid. The idea behind Role - Land is that is totally nonsensical. That's the point. The burglar result also meshes very well with watery grave.

It's a very, very weak foundation.

I seriously dislike your argument there.

Lack of G:RTGM isn't surprising since you worked with me on it, and Guildpact's roles had a lot of simply odd things that don't translate to actual games well.

I still like Zindaras out of all the lynches. Hopefully, I'll have more time Saturday or Sunday to elaborate on things of that nature.

As for Dark Confidant, I took random magic cards under a preset of defined rules and interpreted them under those rules and made effects. The JaC interpretation is different and not essentially the same.

UA is the same pretty much. Cleric about the same, burglar...etc. Bill Cosby...I find this suspect. I never had a role which searched for pudding. So, that role doesn't actually exist. Please tell us, Bussy, who you used your role on so far.

Museum of Pariah's Greatest Bastard Hits Director - MPFG Museum Director, obviously, from MPFG II.

I don't actually remember the statistics keeper, sadly. I don't know where this witch/wizard talk is coming from, I'll have to look into more detail. More alignment screwing stuff wouldn't surprise me, that seems to be a theme. Zombifiying might actually be for the greater good in a weird way.

[Pariah]

Specifically, Merestial Hayes of MPFG II. (I think I'm spelling that wrong.) MH got random one shot items he could use or not use each day. One even included changing alignments to SK and one was to end the day early and such, etc.

As for teacher, I believe Billy has confirmed that Zindie has used it. However, I would not say that confirms Zindie as pro town. (Obviously.) Teacher would make a more interesting scum role than town, really. (Kind of like meter maid from pro town to pro scum.)

NotActuallyAnEDIT: Hey, you can't zombify land! It's not alive. Further confirmation to my claim, I suppose. We could, if we wanted, possibly eliminate the zombie threat, knowing this.

[Pariah]

NotActuallyAnEDIT: Hey, you can't zombify land! It's not alive. Further confirmation to my claim, I suppose. We could, if we wanted, possibly eliminate the zombie threat, knowing this.

Fake Edit: Obviously assumes if I am correct we could do that. I may or may not have not been zombified for that reason.

[Pariah]

Hm, that's like, today, and soon.

Zindaras, the person I think the scummiest has the most votes by a margin of 2, with 4 to lynch. My options are to abstain and see Zindie hang, to vote someone else and hope they are lynched if I do not want Zindie to die, or to vote Zindie. I would prefer to have had a dialog with Zindaras, but that's my fault, I suppose. If I had to kill someone, I'd kill him.

I'll bite the bullet and solidify the lynch.

Vote: Zindaras

[Pariah]

It comes to me randomly now that Billy seems to have placed a weird vote on Zindaras in retrospect and UA is pretty much entirely under everyone's radar. While I dislike Zindaras's posting...I dislike it most of the time. :V The other issue is that I cannot actually be certain whether or not of Zindaras's alignment, as it seems alignment screwing is the theme of the game. So I lose a lot of valuable information. Billy

is

a claimed miller after all. I should look for a link there or interaction with Zindaras, once I grow some more time.

Or I'm actually right and I'm thinking too much into this. Probably the latter. I'm not really proofreading this, I'm pretty much posting stream-of-consciousness due to lack of time.