{Survivor: Names Are Hard Island} ~ GG

[Narninian]

Congrats to all.

If I ever get too big of an ego, I'll just and read confessionals again to put me in my place.

[Narninian]

I still maintain than prioritizing PM post count when looking for a first boot disgusts me, but its clearly programmed into the meta/hive mind.
I guess knowing that I might be able to enjoy a future survivor game, but this one was a completely awful experience for me.

[Narninian]

I see; I guess that makes sense --- I had no plans of being 'inactive' for the rest of the game, but I can see how you wouldnt be able to tell the difference and how the meta evolved that way.

I was booted over somebody who hadn't posted in a week and self-evicted before the next week for inactivity. It clearly can't be because I wasn't going to participate enough. I was there, I just wasn't posting paragraphs of meaningless content.

[Narninian]

Here in example of a PM thread paraphrased.

them: basic intro
me: basic intro
Me: game stuff
them: Too early for game talk
me: ok, comments on challenge.
them: why arent you talking more.
me: ok, try to talk game
them: too early for game talk
me: ok, comment on challenge
them: you're not talking enough
me: ok, I'll talk more.
me: game?
them: too early.
me: We finally lost a challenge.... game stuff.
them: its too late to talk game - I warned you.


Not all of them are the same, as I didn't want to work with everyone, but there are common threads.
Some of them didn't talk to me except to say I wasn't talking enough (even though I talked to them more than they talked to me).

I

t really did feel like, ok lets eliminate the new guys and get to the real game. As the new guys didn't know about this early game ritual where you talk about nonsense to prove you're invested in the game.

[Narninian]

oh from reading confessionals its certainly appeared that the game of survivor started in the midgame/after a few boots, but you need fake small talk to get there, which is fairly garbage.
It can't possibly be a coincidence that 5 newbies in a row were booted. Its not like we were all inactive/not invested in the game. I was invested/active I just didn't want to talk about people's lives outside the game.

Now that I know that is policy to look for an easy boot early from people that don't want fake conversations early -- I could be a better survivor player. I'm not just sure I want to since it was so unenjoyable for me.

[Narninian]

Ever wanted to play in a Survivor game but the whole thing seems intimidating? Signups have now opened for this super duper cool back-to-basics Survivor game!

12/10 for first-timers!!

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=60895

/lynch CuddlyCaucasian

I thought it was going to be newbies and thus wasn't trying to conform to a meta.

[Narninian]

oh from reading confessionals its certainly appeared that the game of survivor started in the midgame/after a few boots, but you need fake small talk to get there, which is fairly garbage.
It can't possibly be a coincidence that 5 newbies in a row were booted. Its not like we were all inactive/not invested in the game. I was invested/active I just didn't want to talk about people's lives outside the game.

Now that I know that is policy to look for an easy boot early from people that don't want fake conversations early -- I could be a better survivor player. I'm not just sure I want to since it was so unenjoyable for me.

What do you expect to happen early?

In those first 24-48 hours when you were inactive and not responding to anyone, I had already:
- Secured a trio alliance with Star & Doge
- Made a deal w/ Dave
- Buddied up to HTTP (and he asked me for an alliance)
- Started to circulate you + Jagger for possibilities for first vote (just by telling people I 'was not thrilled' with my convos so far)

The game was being played, it was just being played without you because you weren't around or communicating with anyone.

I was where you were back during... Conclave, maybe. I don't exactly remember. There was a game that happened where I was first boot or something and I was *shocked*, simply because I thought I was doing well with convos/keeping up, only to find out I had nothing on what the rest of my tribe was doing.

And I don't think it's newbie related. Last game, Hyrule, a newbie made it all the way to FTC, and another was a likely winner/favorite if she hadn't been blindsided due to her social threat.

Thats the thing.... I was looking for alliances BUT WAS TOLD ITS TOO EARLY.... I obviously wasn't just going to offer/ask everyone.

[Narninian]

They were specifically refering to when the game started. I didn't even offer one yet, they just didn't want to talk at all about who they wanted to work with because the 'game had just started' 2 days after it started.

[Narninian]

Also, didn't a newbie win Doctor Who?

Nope, but a newbie won Hogwarts, and TWO newbies made it to the final three in Conclave. It was just something about this game, really. I think the difference might be that the newbies who do well generally spectate a game first.

But I agree with Axxle's latest post, in an anonymous game, people aren't going to commit to an alliance with you if they know nothing about you. It is a social game, after all, but you're right that the game doesn't get into high levels of strategy until a couple weeks in, after everyone has figured out who they want to trust.

Not sure I'd call StD a newbie, he's been orging since before he joined the site 2004.

That being said he's awesome.

[Narninian]

oh, I know Im not underestimating it at *all*; I was eliminated for it after all.

Wasn't trying to coast though. nor was I lacking "effort".

[Narninian]

I still maintain 5 newbies in a row is no way/no how a coincidence
There is clearly an established site-meta early game that players are looking for to decide their early boot, and it has little resemblance to survivor.
I know how it works now - i would have certainly looked at past games if I knew I needed to - but I was under the impression it was all new people based on the PM for signups saying it was for new players.

I really enjoy survivor/big brother --- and have enjoyed playing online in the past (and winning/at least doing well) in the real time format.
This experience was just awful for me, I just needed to vent a little bit. I'll stop now, and enjoy it for what it is.

[Narninian]

Yeah, I have no clue what CC was thinking of when he said that the game was going to be newbie friendly. I had my doubts at the time, even if I didn't say anything about it.

I think it was because of it was low on twists. ironically I think twists would help newbies more than experienced players as there is no established way to deal with them.

When I signed up I thought it meant it would be mostly new players, which thinking about now, is probably not practical.

[Narninian]

Hey, I just had a thought. Maybe I should pretend to be a newbie in all my future games.

but don't play like one. perfect compromise.

[Narninian]

I'm kinda surprised people would want to align with a newbie. I don't think I would want to align with a "total newbie" right off the get go without getting to know them first. A: If they're new, they might realize they aren't dedicated enough or cut out for the game and might end up bailing. B: I wouldn't know how to gauge if they were plotting to betray and/or be afraid they'd be too open about any "alliance", etc. C: I'd be afraid they'd be too easily manipulated by other players and if lied to by an opponent, I wouldn't know if they'd be experienced enough to talk with me first. I have absolutely nothing against new players, I just wouldn't trust them to the full extent that I would trust players I can tell know what they're doing.

Also, I think we should have a non-anonymous Survivor again. I want to be an evil villainous creature-thing for all mafiascum to see. Mwhahahahaha.

There is a difference between being new and being dumb.

Point A) is a valid concern
but I'm not sure B/C really talk about their seniority unless they are just unfamiliar with reality games in general.

[Narninian]

I feel like "mentors" or a "strategy guide" for new players is defeating the purpose and frankly a bit insulting and patronizing. It would be enforcing a specific meta, which I don't think needs any assistance in enforcing and speaking as a new player is not something that would make it more fun for me.
I could see a bb14 like twist which would he similar working though

[Narninian]

So, speaking of mentors and the like.

Has anyone considered a Big Brother game. Like 12P, only players with <2 games are permitted, and four "veterans" handpicked as coaches who are assigned players, and win with their player if they win.

#latenightideas

Thats where I was going with the bb14 idea.

It lets people keep some resemblance of the meta that is clearly important - but with new players gives an opportunity to have it break the script a little bit.
I'd say keep it anonymous, except let the coach know the real players identities. I'm not sure I'd want a 'coaches can play' twist though like that had in bb14.

[Narninian]

"Don't suck" is great advice. thanks for the strategy guide.
I knew that 'sucking' was a bad strategy in hindsight, but at the time It felt like the right thing to do.

Also if serious I hate you.

[Narninian]

speaking of potential variants.
I think it might be interesting to see a social game that gives people on the outs an advantage, so you have to be careful who you allow to be targeted. I'd be down to mod something like this since I'm clearly not cut out to participate like I thought I was.

Spoiler:

A Multi-format Social Game

The VIP is whoever came closest to elimination last week, they get an advantage of some sort the next week.
VIP(or whatever name you want to use) Always chooses next challenge type

Big Brother
VIP Chooses 'Have nots' (can only private message each other) - Late Game
VIP Gets Power of Veto - Early Game
Non Eliminated Nominee becomes VIP.

Survivor:
VIP Chooses tribes
VIP's Tribe gets a food reward (small Advantage in challenge) - Late Game. If its past the point where there would be tribes, instead they choose 1/3 of remaining players to get the food reward.
VIP Gets an idol clue -Early Game
Person with most tribal council votes (thats not eliminated) becomes VIP

Apprentice
VIP Chooses opposing teams leader (then they submit lists to choose teams)
Board Room person not eliminated becomes VIP (If leader is eliminated, leader chooses VIP)

The 'Quest'
Ties benefit VIP when determining scores. VIP Votes to save last
Final 2 person not eliminated becomes VIP

Whodunnit
VIP Gets to choose location after everyone has chosen (everyone else must choose simultanously)
Person who had the worst quiz results (not eliminated) becomes VIP

King of the Nerds
VIP Chooses teams
VIP Gets to pick Challenge Category
Surviving person from 'Nerd-off' becomes VIP.

[Narninian]

That is because communication is pretty much done by PM and only by PM.

One of the mods (I don't know who was who) talked about having a mechanic where people could overhear parts of PMs in a future game.
I personally dont think that would do anything, and has to be taken to the next level. No communcation by Private Message at all.

A big brother type game, where people can only go to 'rooms', where anybody in the room at a given time could hear what was being said (or whispers but you'd know they were whispering to each other at least). Its tricky to figure out how to do with a forum ------ but I think the key and HUGE difference between my one game here and every real reality show ever is in "real" reality shows people sneaking off to chat is frowned upon and people get targetted for it. In forum survivor it was like oppositeland and you get targetted for not sneaking off enough (at least early)

Even then, everyone would just whisper to each other and not be targetted for it since this its a forum game and not a real one.

[Narninian]

I've actually played a game where moving rooms was a thing, and man it was crazy. I'd join a room and walk in on people talking, and they'd immediately move somewhere else. And you'd tell someone, "Hey let's go hear to talk!" then everyone would follow. It was really hard to work but a good idea nonetheless.

Yeah, it theory I like the idea, but after giving it some thought, it would really make the game super time sensitive, and depending on your time zone would require people to log on way more often. The way it is now you may want to be there frequently to send private messages, but there isn't a set time where you "have" to be on (except for some live challenges maybe, and being on shortly before a tribal vote helps). This way may take more time than people have, as theoritically you'd have to log on frequently to make sure you're in the room with the people you want to be in the room with - especially if you can't be on at the same time.

I feel like "mentors" or a "strategy guide" for new players is defeating the purpose and frankly a bit insulting and patronizing. It would be enforcing a specific meta, which I don't think needs any assistance in enforcing and speaking as a new player is not something that would make it more fun for me.
I could see a bb14 like twist which would he similar working though

I was more thinking a tutorial on how to use the forum? Nothing that says, "Make at least 3 alliances, or pick one of this lines and send it to someone." Just, "Here's the PM button, here's how to make a message, and here's how to reply to a message. Over here is your confessional, after the game everyone can read it. etc," I also don't think it would be patronizing because newbies are constantly complaining about how they didn't understand the game when they first joined and it horribly screwed them over. I sure as hell would have loved a tutorial when I started playing. I didn't understand anything that was going on until I got to merge and I started getting the hang of things.

ahh -- this would be helpful, although it wouldn't have helped me. I knew how to use the forum.
The way other people were talking it was going to be things like "You need to send a large number of private messages early or your likely by the first boot, etc... and other tips" this, while true, would only make it more true and discourage any sort of variation in the game.

[Narninian]

[Narninian]

Jaquan was eliminated for sending too many private messages to Rodney.

[Narninian]

ok, I feel like I made this thread go off rails again and didn't mean to.

The win was well desrved and y'all played awesome games GJ.

[Narninian]

You mean the one you just opened up to everyone?

Clearly heisenberg as the winner pick was practically true.