Open 596: Mega PopCorn Mafia - Over

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

/confirm

[Heartless]

It's a stylized Heartless cat. I thought it was cute.

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

So Nacho, what was my motivation in posting it?

[Heartless]

:/
I'm not really that comfortable with your motivations in posting it.

I'm really, really not.

Spoiler: i'm only going to say this once, nacho

ok, i get that the point of the game is to question motives and all that shit, but i will go ahead and tell you this is fucking ridiculous and so off-putting in so many ways. seriously? you're "not comfortable"? well, do you want a blanket and some hot cocoa then? she posted a picture of a cat. she wasn't rubbing your taint.

you also are doing absolutely nothing besides putting us in a position to where we CAN'T respond to it in a way that's not going to make it escalate into an "uh huh" / "nu uh" shouting match because any response given is going to be judged too defensive or dismissive because the original attack is stupid to begin with.

OR

we could play this fucking ridiculous charade where we dignify all this stupid bullshit and then subsequently try to "figure you out" or "sort you" from it. gag me.

so

this is me

antihero

telling you

nacho

FUCKING GET OVER YOURSELF. IT'S A FUCKING CAT.

[Heartless]

Fucking hell we can't even vote yet and there's a shitfest to be seen

not a shitfest

just a friendly reminder to nacho that i don't tolerate any bullshit and a friendly request to get out of his own ass and knock it off b/c regardless of his alignment it's annoying

[Heartless]

oh my god

yes

c'mon nacho, make my day

[Heartless]

NO

FUCK

NO

NACHO, IF YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING OVER TTH POSTING A GODDAMN CAT, I WANT YOUR PUBLIC HUMILIATION TO BE AS SPECTACULAR AND ATTENTION WHORING AS POSSIBLE

I AM DEAD SERIOUS

[Heartless]

/in be4 "troloolololol he's vengeful nyucknyucknyucknyucknyucknyucknyucknyucknyucknyuck"

[Heartless]

but really?

that's my question

[Heartless]

i'm just
a
sensitive soul

[Heartless]

seems i wasn't

the only one

who missed your joke, though

>_> <_< >_> <_<

[Heartless]

Can we get tth in here

you're stuck w/ me for now mr. sugar pants

[Heartless]

yeah apparently tth missed it too

i was implying that scum missed it b/c scum gave you the gun but whtvr...

i actually don't know if tth missed it or not. we haven't talked about this game yet.

[Heartless]

id kill dcl. i got a feeling

that tonight's gonna' be a good night?

[Heartless]

Who's tth?

tth = TellTaleHeart
that's my hydra partner. we're a hydra (see: our sig)

aa9, you may want to update the playerlist with hydras and their heads to prevent confusion. friendly suggestion.

[Heartless]

VOTE: nonsense

i endorse this

i would also endorse a west9 shot

[Heartless]

I've read and caught up. I have scum reads on wanderer and West9, slight scum reads on Perpetual Nonsense and Lucky2u, and town reads on vonflare and DCL.

[Heartless]

I've read and caught up. I have scum reads on wanderer and West9, slight scum reads on Perpetual Nonsense and Lucky2u, and town reads on vonflare and DCL.

wanderer is very articulate and her theory posts hit all the right notes, which is why I'm surprised her actual scum reads (DCL and vonflare) are so

bleh

, bland, and unremarkable. It's particularly bothersome that the reasons for the vonflare vote were sub par even by early-game standards, her scumhunting is also very limited in scope to just two people who happened to draw quite a bit of attention at the time, and her reads track suspiciously closely with nacho's reads.

On my first read-through I thought Post 171 was an attempt to

look

participative without actually contribute anything (and I have a feeling that's why Antihero's scum reading him), but looking at all of West9's posts stacked in a row, it fits in with a general theme of "try to catch someone in a contradiction: Phoenix Wright GOTCHA' style." I think I spoke too soon on that one.

Perpetual Nonsense I don't have anything really solid on. Posting a lot and

then

asking for the shot (Post 163) felt off and so did his response to CB's opener (Post 164). I hardly thought CB's post was remarkable, and "seems you already want to." doesn't seem appropriate. Same goes for lucky; it's mostly intuition. He leaned a little too hard on CB's "the game is moving fast sentiment." (Post 241) It felt a little weird.

[Heartless]

totally not tth's issue. she has a problem with your reads. not... whatever you're talking about something about figuring out how to play the game.

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

wanderer is very articulate and her theory posts hit all the right notes, which is why I'm surprised her actual scum reads (DCL and vonflare) are so bleh, bland, and unremarkable. It's particularly bothersome that the reasons for the vonflare vote were sub par even by early-game standards, her scumhunting is also very limited in scope to just two people who happened to draw quite a bit of attention at the time, and her reads track suspiciously closely with nacho's reads.

I agree that Wanderer is articulate and generally has a good grasp of theory, but she has been playing on site for less than two months so I'm guessing that a bit of leniency is warranted. I disagree that her reads are "bleh" for early-game standards, they seem pretty par for the course although I don't like that her focus has been limited to popular targets.

But then there's things like this:

I like this for town. Also, it made me smile.

It's funny Vonflare is townreading me for it. Guess I did get something out of my vote.

Yeah so I was just thinking that it's actually kind of weird Vonflare declared me town because he could have easily painted me scum, but that doesn't really matter in this setup.

@Heartless, I'm trying to figure out how to play this game and I don't even know how to respond further without blatantly dropping towntells.

Which while they don't necessarily have a lot of logic supporting this feeling (although the last quote would be a pretty brazen play from new-scum in a game like this), still feels good to me and still makes me not wanna shoot the slot.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah,

phooey

!

Spoiler:

Of course you think they're great reads, ding dong. They're yours. In this case, the most readable thing she can do is produce

legit

reads and nothing you quoted indicates such.

[Heartless]

Are the town reads are because your scumreads are voting for them or...?

Not quite, but that's the main gist of it. I'll go into those if I have time. Though from their posting and general dynamics, I would predict both would draw scum aggro.

[Heartless]

Two things:
1) When both reads were expressed, I had already moved on from a scumread to a townread on the players she was talking about.
2) I didn't say they were great, I said they were par for the course based on not really much content generated at all, which I don't really think is an unfair comment to make at all. What makes her lack of legit reads more significant than anyone else's lack of legit reads?

she's already been over this... the logic chain isn't particularly hard to follow either.

wanderer takes up a lot of space w/ theory and the reads are superficially OK looking but they're limited to the ppl most talked about and they're limited to only 2 ppl. and it's not like wanderer is a completely clueless newb either.

wanderer CAN scumhunt but won't scumhunt. why? tth is saying it's b/c wanderer is scum and she might be right.

[Heartless]

just read Post 298, thought it was alright.

[Heartless]

yeah, which is unfortunate b/c tth will most assuredly yell at me for being too soft on you.

[Heartless]

town: deep-city-lights, Wanderer-nl, CB, MaxwellPuckett, pablito, enomis
somewhere in between or fuck it tth can deal w/ it: vonflare, Lucky2u, West9, RedCoyote, julienvonwolfe, VictorDeAngelo
scum: Perpetual Nonsense, Flubbernugget, Jeanne11, millar13

[Heartless]

Non-game related question: can you 2 be logged in in this hydra at the same time?

we can and have before

[Heartless]

jfkdls;mvaiesooooooooooooooooooofj;oisjfklewm

flubber asking for tth is really :\ :/ :\ :/ :\ :/
so are his reads.

[Heartless]

flubber asking for tth is really :\ :/ :\ :/ :\ :/
so are his reads.

What do you mean by this, exactly?

kjfldssssssssssssssssamadjoieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew;oij

it's just kinda' weird. because once tth actually GOT here and started giving her reads, he proceeds to ask her perfunctory questions (Post 279 this was AFTER tth EXPLICITLY said she thought vonflare and DCL were town) and not really do anything to try to resolve the apparent mile-wide chasm between their reads. and if it was really my "drama" that was bothering him, i don't know why he wouldn't have just told me directly to shut my fucking pie hole instead of making an indirect appeal for tth to put a muzzle on me.

worst thing is that the rest of his iso is really pot-shot-ish and the scum reads (vonflare and dcl) aren't well supported

[Heartless]

then ask him why

flubber why do you think von and dcl are scum?

It's not Anti's obligation to ask him why. It's Flubber's to make himself clear and understood from the beginning. That is, if he wants to, which is part of what Anti is speculating on.

[Heartless]

I'll tinker with Anti's reads list a little bit. I've decided to trust Antihero's judgment on wanderer and keep her in the town column. I'm not happy about it but Antihero was on the right side of our last wedge read similar to this one (Bookitty in DoA) so I'll just keep an eye on it but I won't push it unless I have the confidence to override him on the read.

town: deep-city-lights, Wanderer-nl, CB, pablito, enomis, vonflare, West9, julienvonwolfe
scum: Perpetual Nonsense, [Flubbernugget], [Jeanne11], [millar13], [Lucky2u], MaxwellPuckett, [VictorDeAngelo], [RedCoyote]

I think that's a solid working hypothesis for now, even though the numbers are a tad off. The scum reads in brackets are closer to null cases that I'm either conflicted on or don't have much data on.

[Heartless]

@Heartless: A tad? You call 8 scumreads! How are you going to pick one of them out to 'vote' for shooting down?

There are seven scum. So yes, a tad.
"Teensy-weensy," "little bit," and "smidge" are also acceptable phrases.

This is also bullshit. There's always incomplete information in any conversation, and you're choosing to scum read me for it because(??)

Scum read-worthy? Debatable. Bullshit? Definitely not. Your scumreads are undercooked to the point of being bloody raw. The fact you don't have developed scumreads in the thread doesn't faze me much since I've seen you do it before as town. I do like the fact you picked up on Maxwell's read on yourself being underdeveloped and I think your more recent posts are more likely to come from town than not, for what it's worth. I'll also let you know that giving Anti his sass back is probably going to be more counterproductive than anything.

[Heartless]

As I recall, Antihero is not particularly known for raging. If this is TTH, I have no idea.

I'm not sure what you do or don't recall, but Antihero's title is based on him mashing his keyboard in anger / frustration and he rages on a pretty consistent basis. I'll hazard a guess that the answer is "C. I didn't know what I was talking about to begin with." but I don't know you.

[Heartless]

I'd rather you refute my scum reads than just complain that they're raw
Like if there was a cop guilty on someone right now would you complain about the depth of my read on them?

Hon,

I'm

not complaining that they're raw. I can read you just fine regardless.

What

I

was taking offense to in the initial quote was Perpetual Nonsense's attempt to throw douchespeak Antihero's way and act like he was contributing:

then ask him why

flubber why do you think von and dcl are scum?

[Heartless]

I tinkered with the list one more time, I'll make a better post later today.

town: deep-city-lights, Wanderer-nl, CB, pablito, enomis, vonflare, West9, julienvonwolfe, Flubbernugget
scum: Perpetual Nonsense, Jeanne11, [millar13], [Lucky2u], MaxwellPuckett, [VictorDeAngelo], RedCoyote

[Heartless]

That was Anti. Obviously.

Neither of us are newbs either, so I don't know what you're going on about.

[Heartless]

I like coyotes 375 and maxwells response in 377, they look town.

Really? What exactly did you like about either of those posts?

[Heartless]

From. Perpetual. Nonsense.

Not. From. You.

Please. Read. And. Quit. With. Whatever. Stupid. Shit. Baggage. You. Have. With. Anti. I. Have. Zero. Patience. Right. Now.

[Heartless]

Ok fine you're scum

OK well screw you too then.

[Heartless]

You're now on in my "ignore" column and Anti can deal with you if he so chooses. I'm done with your inability to keep up with what's going on, whatever stupidass vendetta you have with Anti, and you.

[Heartless]

lol you burned your last friend in this hydra, buddy.

pn's question's already been answered, though. so... maybe rtft?

then ask him why

flubber why do you think von and dcl are scum?

It's not Anti's obligation to ask him why. It's Flubber's to make himself clear and understood from the beginning. That is, if he wants to, which is part of what Anti is speculating on.

I'd rather you refute my scum reads than just complain that they're raw
Like if there was a cop guilty on someone right now would you complain about the depth of my read on them?

Hon,

I'm

not complaining that they're raw. I can read you just fine regardless.

What

I

was taking offense to in the initial quote was Perpetual Nonsense's attempt to throw douchespeak Antihero's way and act like he was contributing:

then ask him why

flubber why do you think von and dcl are scum?

[Heartless]

Heartless, why do you think maxwell and coyote are scum?

RedCoyote's catch up was really shitty and shoddy. (Shiddy?)
Essentially, it consisted of little cutesy snipes at random lines in the first pages and contained little to no substantial analysis and no developed reads. The read on us based on Anti's reaction to Nacho is flimsy crap. It was obvious the quote was Anti because he referred to me in the third person and I have no idea where RedCoyote is getting his meta intel from if he says Antihero doesn't caps rage.

The closest he does come to an

explained

read is on julien, which is also superficial and mostly bullshit. The bulk of the read is apparently derived from julien's speculation on why Nacho got the gun at the beginning of the game (Post 170). Contrary to what RC is implying in his response, "This has got to be fake. C'mon, julien. You didn't think to look to the setup rules for this answer?" julien never intimated an unfamiliarity with the mechanic and was looking for reasons

why

scum would give nacho the gun. It goes directly to the question of

who

scum are and is thus a perfectly valid avenue to explore and we never see RC bother to prove why it's scummy. The later hydra hate is also a meaningless, useless platitude that doesn't actually help or add to the discussion. The bottom line is that for all the gooey quote-stripe-y-ness in the length of the post, it's very very light on actual contribution.
(Hence, why I really want to know what Max is loving about it.)

Maxwell's reads list a while back (Post 325) seems alright with a cursory glance, but the veneer quickly falls apart with any kind of inspection or thought and then it starts to seem really dressed up. The strongest scum read on julien is based on a trumped-up case based on a misinterpretation of cheap early setup speculation, which Max himself later admitted to (Post 345). He also takes issue with the wanderer read without actually stating what his problem with it is, which is off given that his wanderer read itself only consists of "I like their saying that they want to shoot an active rather than an inactive. I agree." and he lists her as one of the reads he needs to re-evaluate reportedly because of room for doubt. The knee jerk reaction to pabilto's point in Post 345 is eyebrow-raising. In recent posting, giving RedCoyote a pat on the back for tenuous reasons and giving reasons why millar shouldn't be the shot even though he's not necessarily a town read leaves a really bad taste in my mouth (Post 372 and Post 377).

[Heartless]

Lump it.

It's pretty obvious which one of us is typing any particular post, your passive-aggressiveness notwithstanding.

RedCoyote is also not contributing to the game. Everything you pointed out is cheap and wouldn't be hard to fake as scum. It isn't about agreeing or not agreeing with arguments and saying "It doesn't come off as forced to me at all." doesn't mean anything, especially given nothing you referred to shows much thoughtfulness.

[Heartless]

@Heartless: A tad? You call 8 scumreads! How are you going to pick one of them out to 'vote' for shooting down?

So far I haven't really seen any reasons to suspect Wanderer that I agree with. They're all related to their saying that they've never played a setup like this, and are not sure on how to proceed. What exactly is strange about that? Is voicing the truth now too scummy to do? I've never played a nightless either, that's why I was asking so many questions about the setup and win conditions near the beginning of the day.

If I'm wrong and there is a reason to suspect Wanderer that isn't what I described above, I just don't see it.

What is this in response to?

[Heartless]

Also, that quote from Wanderer in my last post was accidental. It shouldn't have had the quote in it.

Were you just talking about Wanderer in general or was it prompted by what I said?

[Heartless]

Which of you is typing is not obvious to me.

if the grammar and capitalization aren't completely fucked, it's tth

otherwise, it's me

[Heartless]

WE are confused. What did WE do?

well... nothing. and you're continuing to all of jack shit aside from be super awkward.

[Heartless]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6858373

[Heartless]

Yes, fall back on "caught for the wrong reasons" now that your pants are down. That can magically turn your provably weak argument into a strong one. Also, you totally know Anti better than I do; never mind the fact I've had this hydra with him for 9 months and I've known the guy for 20+ years.

I swear, every time I check this thread, I can be completely fine and the content of the posts I read make me go from zero to bitch in three seconds.

This game made me into a monster.

[Heartless]

No, you're button-pushing and I'm not playing.

[Heartless]

long time no speak, rc

giving tth an aneurysm i see. good deal, good deal.

so what's up?

[Heartless]

Also everytime I've played with Antihero he seems rather chill. Maybe he doesn't remember playing with me???

hey weren't you in bridge mafia?

[Heartless]

well, i gotta' bounce soon. tth just told me she was about to tear out her hair so i just had to take a look and i think you've been p boring so far. ya'll are really bringing out the antagonist in her this game.

[Heartless]

I know we've played at least three times, brother. You want I should dig them up? The only reason I even brought it up was because everyone is saying you have meta of being a hothead but that's not how I remember you???

you can, i don't remember bridge being smooth sailing, though.

they were spyparty and bridge.... at least. then there was this other one where you claimed miller and then won but i don't remember the name of that one.

regardless, no one really knows me here besides nacho, bert, and maybe flubber so your "everyone" is really limited. :\

[Heartless]

anyway, happy birthday.

and
anywaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
[whatever tth is saying is probably right. i haven't read all of the recent stuff, but she's pretty sharp so... yeah]

[Heartless]

lol of course it would

OBVIOUSLY you need to "re-evaluate" your play but tth scum reading you oh-so-offends your sensibilities

[Heartless]

Heartless, why do you think maxwell and coyote are scum?

RedCoyote's catch up was really shitty and shoddy. (Shiddy?)
Essentially, it consisted of little cutesy snipes at random lines in the first pages and contained little to no substantial analysis and no developed reads. The read on us based on Anti's reaction to Nacho is flimsy crap. It was obvious the quote was Anti because he referred to me in the third person and I have no idea where RedCoyote is getting his meta intel from if he says Antihero doesn't caps rage.

The closest he does come to an

explained

read is on julien, which is also superficial and mostly bullshit. The bulk of the read is apparently derived from julien's speculation on why Nacho got the gun at the beginning of the game (Post 170). Contrary to what RC is implying in his response, "This has got to be fake. C'mon, julien. You didn't think to look to the setup rules for this answer?" julien never intimated an unfamiliarity with the mechanic and was looking for reasons

why

scum would give nacho the gun. It goes directly to the question of

who

scum are and is thus a perfectly valid avenue to explore and we never see RC bother to prove why it's scummy. The later hydra hate is also a meaningless, useless platitude that doesn't actually help or add to the discussion. The bottom line is that for all the gooey quote-stripe-y-ness in the length of the post, it's very very light on actual contribution.
(Hence, why I really want to know what Max is loving about it.)

Maxwell's reads list a while back (Post 325) seems alright with a cursory glance, but the veneer quickly falls apart with any kind of inspection or thought and then it starts to seem really dressed up. The strongest scum read on julien is based on a trumped-up case based on a misinterpretation of cheap early setup speculation, which Max himself later admitted to (Post 345). He also takes issue with the wanderer read without actually stating what his problem with it is, which is off given that his wanderer read itself only consists of "I like their saying that they want to shoot an active rather than an inactive. I agree." and he lists her as one of the reads he needs to re-evaluate reportedly because of room for doubt. The knee jerk reaction to pabilto's point in Post 345 is eyebrow-raising. In recent posting, giving RedCoyote a pat on the back for tenuous reasons and giving reasons why millar shouldn't be the shot even though he's not necessarily a town read leaves a really bad taste in my mouth (Post 372 and Post 377).

this post is beautiful
and should be framed and put on an art museum wall.

[Heartless]

yeah, tth is hitting the nail on the head and scum don't have a response so they shat their pants and circled the wagons.

nacho either shoot or give the gun to us.

[Heartless]

anywaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
[whatever tth is saying is probably right. i haven't read all of the recent stuff, but she's pretty sharp so... yeah]

It's almost like you two are the same alignment???

oh ... right.

I FORGOT TO CONSIDER THAT TTH MIGHT BE SCUM

HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Heartless]

if your point was that me backing tth up was scummy, you are so full of it, rc

[Heartless]

saying "you two are the same alignment" is still fucking meaningless

[Heartless]

You've got to be doing this on purpose.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6734657

jackass

your wall doesn't make you any more town, bee tee dubs

[Heartless]

Who cares? Why are you airing this in the thread other that to make yourself seem more likable (read: emotionally try to get us to relate to you more, read: emotionally manipulate us)?

wanderer did, because she asked me a direct question. asshole.

jeez, what the fuck is with the deliberate eye-poking for no goddamn reason?

[Heartless]

i don't know why you're ruling out rc shot, nacho

if he's scum, he'll be dead (win)

if he's town he'll shoot us and we'll get the gun (win-win)
and he'll be dead (another win)

looks like a win-win-win-win situation to me

[Heartless]

And here comes the faux rage at not being able to pick apart the internal workings of the hydra. God forbid you two take the time to make it easier on the rest of us, no, we have to cater to Heartless and know when which head is saying what and be able to sift through all the dissonance without fail.

oh hey while you're busy bitching mindlessly and incessantly about dissonance, you probably don't have time to realize THERE'S ISN'T DISSONANCE TO BITCH ABOUT.

aside from a few minor things that we've already ironed out in the last reads list, we're working really cohesively this game.

it might actually require some reading on your part. but don't strain yourself. you might trip over your own pointless, stupid-ass righteous indignation.

[Heartless]

seriously

rc

you being scum would kind of mitigate how much of a dick you're going out of your way to be, but only a little bit

[Heartless]

lucky's an ok shot. kind of high risk b/c if he's town (yikes), but i would be ok w/ it
pn is a GREAT shot
jeanne's also an ok shot and probably the one i'd take if i had the gun.

[Heartless]

Okay Um.

RedCoyote is accusing you of being scum. So they are picking apart your behaviour in order to show why they are scumreading you/provide more evidence to that fact.

He's not poking you with a stick to get you to growl, and he's certainly not being a dick.


But I'll put that aside for a sec, because you really need to calm down. tth, or Antihero I... look I know one of you is the one that doesn't use capitals and I could read up a bit to remember which one that is but I don't care enough.

The phrase "stupid-ass righteous indignation" is interesting though. The fact that you think RedCoyote can have 'righteous indignation" implies that you don't think he's scum.

no.

acting like he knows me and then scum reading me for my personality and idiosyncrasies is a dick move. and little cute comments like "it's stressful being scum" are certainly only to poke in the eye. don't act like this is legit scumhunting because it's not.

also, someone can be righteously indignant about hating hydras and still be scum. what you're talking about is a "scum lie about everything fallacy"

[Heartless]

Actually, can we shoot Jeanne, she has been ridiculously lurky this game.

so... victor

/coughcough

[Heartless]

in terms of optimum strategy, i think julien is the best shot closely followed by PN, followed (w/ a little distance) by jeanne.

jeanne's likely to flip scum, but her flip doesn't really tell us much. the only benefit there would be if she were vengeful (doubt it), she's following optimal mafia goon strategy (lurk like it's going out of style) to a tee.
PN is kinda' the same thing, but since they're active lurking i think they're more likely to flip vengeful. also /egoboost.

both of those are hero shots.

-----

julien's kind of a pivot point in my reads list. if he flips town, maxwell and rc move towards the scum side of the spectrum and vice versa. if he flips scum, i'm also inclined to think we got burned on a couple of our townreads on the first go-round. i'm thinking from the pool [enomis, vonflare, west9] in order of most to least likely. looking at his ISO again, it's really a mixed bag. i thought the start was OK, but (esp. in light of the victor flip) i think Post 531 looks kinda' bad, especially if jeanne, lucky, and RC (or any 2 of 3 combination thereof) are actually scum.

[Heartless]

scumhunting you at this point for me is going to involve more complicated things than just you. when i said before your walls don't make you town, i wasn't being a smartass; i was being literal. i know if you're scum you're going to start walling and that's going to make people automatically townread you (whether ppl are willing to admit it or not; this is because at heart most people on ms are lazy and feel really secure about walls).

accusing me of "fakerage" when that's my #1 pet peeve is going to draw my ire though. so, that's not gonna' change.

[Heartless]

don't know. nacho obviously got burned on something. he can't be right on all those townreads.

[Heartless]

can anybody justify the "lurker" status PN seems to be enjoying right now? at 37 posts, they're the 5th (NUMBER FIVE) most active poster. that's the TOP HALF OF THIS GAME IN TERMS OF ACTIVITY, for those who are mathematically challenged.

bert's not lurking gaiden-style, just not here. he's here and posting. he's ACTIVE LURKING, which has a LOT more scum motivation. to look like he's participating when he's doing all of jack and shit and making crappy dappy passive-aggressive pot shots from the sidelines.

[Heartless]

Also there is literally no reason to sheep nacho on heartless if you can make a scum case on them

you talk a big game.
but you seem to have trouble walking the walk.

[Heartless]

beetlejuice

[Heartless]

i'm pretty sure that's what you do to make michael keeton show up to punch bert in the face

[Heartless]

new reads schematic for people who don't read paragraphs

town: deep-city-lights, Wanderer-nl, CB, pablito, West9
grey area conditional on julien flip / other stuff: vonflare [p. close to scummy], flubbernugget, enomis, redcoyote, maxwell
scummy: lucky, millar13

shoot pool (in order): Perpetual Nonsense, julien, Jeanne11

[Heartless]

i call your bluff

[Heartless]

if you already know who you're going to shoot, you're better off just taking the goddamn shot. we're at the point where flips are going to do us more good than more gassing on and rehashing the same old shit.

[Heartless]

if you already know who you're going to shoot, you're better off just taking the goddamn shot. we're at the point where flips are going to do us more good than more gassing on and rehashing the same old shit.

I disagree.
And I have the gun so.... guess there will more discussion after all.

Apologies for trying to make you scumhunt in a mafia game.

well now you're doing more damage to town than scum could ever hope to. everyone has their reads/cases pretty well defined by now (or, at least as well defined as they're going to be with the reveals available / people care to MAKE them be) and now we're to the point where everyone is pretty much posting glorified prod dodges, including myself.

if there's something SPECIFIC you want clarification on or resolved, go ahead. but holding everyone hostage like this demanding vague "discussion" as if we're in the early stages of the game when we're, in fact, in a much more advanced stage is only going to create a doldrum effect in the gamestate and breed apathy.

tl;dr:

SHIT OR GET OFF THE POT

[Heartless]

holy fuck i've been trying so hard not to go off on you, but you are making this so goddamn difficult.

i iso'd rc and within 30 SECONDS I FOUND HIS READSLISTS

Would Shoot (in descending order): VictorDeAngelo, Heartless, Wanderer, PN, julien, Max
Lurker shots: Jeanne, Lucky, millar

EBWOP: was = want

Also want to revise my own personal shot preference list but somewhat surprisingly Heartless' list is very similar to mine (preference would probably be PN, julien and Jeanne in no particular order).

if you want reasoning they're in the same posts.

WE ARE NOT HERE TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK FOR YOU. IF YOU'RE LIKE DCL AND JUST WANTED THIS TO BE "WHAM BAM SHITS AND GIGGLES EVERYONE SHOOTS IN TWO POSTS" KIND OF GAME, TAKE YOUR SHOT AND QUIT WASTING EVERYONE ELSE'S TIME. MEANWHILE, YOU HAVE ASKED VONFLARE THE EXACT SAME QUESTION (THIS TIME, ACTUALLY VALID SINCE VONFLARE FELL OFF THE RADAR), WHICH HE RESPONDED TO WITH

DEAFENING

SILENCE. ARE THE COGS TURNING YET? THEY SHOULD BE.

IF YOU LEGIT WANT TO PUT SOMEONE ON THE SPOT BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN UNCLEAR WITH THEIR READS, THAT'S ONE THING.

BUT DEMANDING SPOONFEEDING IS SO FRUSTRATING AND COUNTER PRODUCTIVE. YOU HAVE NO IDEA.

JFKDL;FJPOIE 98JFPFQQQQQQQP98EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

[Heartless]

that's "Go fuck yourself, Antihero". precision is always important.

i will be posting prod dodges until there's another flip. tth can do whatever the fuck she wants. i don't care.

[Heartless]

@.@

I'll try to regain some civility for the sake of the game. In return I hope people start playing properly.

It's really not that they're not "playing properly." The problem is likely that the "hurry up and shoot" crowd's reads have already matured. As a result, they're getting antsy and that's putting you on the defensive since you think they're trying to rush you. They are. But telling them to fuck off is not likely to have the desired effect. Since I'm not a "people person" myself, I don't have good advice for how to deal with it and that's where my usefulness will end. :S

But if it helps anyone, this friction isn't anybody's fault. It's just a consequence of Victor getting a little bit of a late start.

[Heartless]

Unfortunately, I don't really have anything substantive to add. :S

West9

might

be hiding in our scumhunting blind spot. The tracking on West9's julien read isn't all there and it feels like he leans heavily on the same reasoning Antihero's using, citing Post 531 as "bad" but not going into further detail. I guess I'm just sensitive to things like this because now that it's become cool to scum read julien, I have doubts about the accuracy of the read. :S

[Heartless]

WE do hope that the person you want to be shot is on the left.
WE already know who WE will shoot if WE get the gun.

Who?

Right now, WE would shoot CB.

this is your daily reminder that pn is still scum

[Heartless]

I think PN has started recently advocating a CB shot because maybe he thinks that will dissuade others from shooting him. However, in my mind, I'd kind of welcome PN attempting to shoot CB because it would remove an anti-town element and put the gun in good hands. That said, I'm happy with the gun in Victor's hands as well.

Are WE the only one who sees this as a scum slip?

Yes.

The overall suggestion RedCoyote is making here is that you (scum) are trying to discourage a gunbearer from risking giving you the gun by "scum reading" a universal town read. In an attempt to allay that fear, he's saying that it's no loss for you to suicide and give the gun to CB anyway. Therefore, there shouldn't be much of a deterrent to shooting you.

The shorthand assumption that he didn't spell out was that the scenario of you being town and dying by misfire is a hypothetical. That's not a scumslip.

[Heartless]

I'd kind of like a reminder of why most of the game is currently fellating CB. The theorycrafting parts of his posts are really well written and ring all the right bells but when you dig into the meat of the reads, you see a lot of cookie-cutter stuff and not much outside-the-box thinking. Post 337 and Post 592 are perfect examples of what I'm talking about.

[Heartless]

Maybe vic crumbled under pressure and wanted the gun in good hands?

do you agree with pablito about... anything?

[Heartless]

Strongest town reads right now: Heartless, CB, RC, Feirei, wanderer
Strongest scum reads right now: Lucky, Maxwell, PN
Reads conditional upon seeing others flip: West9, Flubbernugget
People I don't want shot because it will torture them and maybe they will participate at some point in time: Lucky, millar, enomis, jeanne, Feirei
People I would like to see shot the most: vonflare, julien

PN/Heartless/Red/Wanderer(?)/Julien(???)

My list to shoot

like... 3/5 people in your shoot list, he has as strong town reads

[Heartless]

I'd kind of like a reminder of why most of the game is currently fellating CB. The theorycrafting parts of his posts are really well written and ring all the right bells but when you dig into the meat of the reads, you see a lot of cookie-cutter stuff and not much outside-the-box thinking. Post 337 and Post 592 are perfect examples of what I'm talking about.

i guess he's not the super-de-dooper town wizard that everyone's making him out to be, but his mindset is more likely from town (the whole poe thing) than not

[Heartless]

Typically the way I read hydras is on how they interact with each. Mafia hydras are more likely to agree with each other since they know everyone's alignment and they both know who they need to push on for mislynches.
While town hydras there will be more conflict on who to push on since it is very rare for two town to have reads that line up.

So they both push on Wanderer. Wanderer comes up with a towny post and then they both back off right away. When one makes a push the other calls that push really well done.

fact check: they did not both push wanderer.
(as an aside: part of having good chemistry in a hydra is knowing when to trust each other)

[Heartless]

First matter of business. Nacho proposed a short list of "do not shoot" people. I want to see those on the list to comment on whether they agree with this plan or not. I also want those not on the list to comment on whether they think following Nacho's idea of a "do not shoot" list.

The theory itself is ironclad. If there's a town bloc of 4, it's mathematically impossible to lose.

I'm not so sure if CB should be on the list. Antihero thinks so, though. :S
I'm also not so sure if RC should be on the list, unless julien flips vengeful.

Side note to CB: I'm going to go ahead and brag

a little bit

OK, I'm going to brag a lot and say you don't get a record like ours by being hopelessly dissonant. Click into our wiki sometime to see what I mean.

[Heartless]

We lynched scum Day 1 and died Night 1. I think we did quite a bit to further our win condition under the circumstances.

[Heartless]

My order of preference to shoot (most to least): vonfalre - Lucky - millar - jeanne - Flubber - Feirei

Why is Flubber so far down on this list?

[Heartless]

jeanne - Flubber - vonflare - millar - Lucky - Feirei

[Heartless]

Are you implying I should scum read everyone I disagree with?

No, he's implying that your current ass-kissing about how he's such a great leader is just that: ass-kissing.

If you don't agree with any of his reads, it doesn't logically follow that you think he's going to be a great gunbearer.

[Heartless]

Because the only read I can get off of her posts is that she wants someone to shoot her so she gets to "do something". Ergo, she's probably just a bored townie.

It's a wash. Optimal goon strategy is to lurk to not give away associatives. Asking for the shot is shrug-worthy at best. With roughly half the playerlist being scum, I'm not as optimistic of Jeanne being town as you are.

Nevertheless, I think a Flubber or a julien shot is best right now.

[Heartless]

Of course.

[Heartless]

To suggest otherwise is absurd and disingenuous.

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

[Heartless]

Why is it relevant at all if that's a good or a bad post? What is this? Fucking group therapy where we all reminisce about our favorite thing about nacho?

There's no shade of gray here. Gunbearers are only as good as their reads because

that

is what has a

direct

impact on what actions they take and therefore how the game progresses.

I don't know how good of a gunbearer Nacho was.

That remains to be seen. If he was right about his town bloc, then he was really good.

[Heartless]

lol, tth is gonna' have a stroke

this game is awesome

[Heartless]

You can make good posts and be off of your reads. Leadership as the gunbearer can only get you so far, since it all comes down to the shot. If your reads and his are different, then which ones are you going to go with? You can't go through mafia just agreeing with the 'strong' players all the time.

...

...

...


...




...


what?

what the fuck are either of you talking about?

[Heartless]

You guys are acting like if I had the ability to give the gun to whomever I wanted I would give it to pablito

did i?

[Heartless]

As a fun side note this all started from my speculative perception of victor's perspective

oh yeah...

Maybe vic crumbled under pressure and wanted the gun in good hands?

ok......... flubber, you don't get to act like tth is the dumb ass here because she's not parsing something something about "good leadership" or whatever you're on about. i don't even know what that means. i guess max does? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

anyway, the original point was mine and my simple point is if the guy who gets the gun thinks all your scumreads are town, i don't know why "oh awesome" is the natural reaction here instead of "oh shit." b/c that's what i would think

.but whtvr, i guess. i guess we could just talk in these elliptical circles using awesome buzzwords like "leadership," "interaction," and "turd biscuits."

[Heartless]

also lolz @ me being a "respected player"

i guess site standards have really just gone to hell if i'm a respected player

[Heartless]

Good leadership implies getting the whole crowd to act in a pro-town manner and I have no idea what else it could mean.

If I were the gunbearer right now and somehow got lucky to post something meaningful, even if I misread that slot, getting to content out for the rest of the town to see and form reads from would be a really strong play on my part.

ok...
so let's move from the hypothetical to the real. what's your basis for saying any of this about pablito?

Okay so now you can't go "boo hoo semantics" anymore. Let's talk about 683 some more.
How does your accusation of buddying change to "town should be feeling a certain way about this and isn't"?
If you're not trying to disprove that I was attempting to speak on behalf of another individual, why would you then say that post was representative of how I currently felt about the game?

oh hey it's titus 2.0
the argument never changed. it was always buddying. "town should be feeling a certain way" is just the logical lead up to it.
the last 2 lines i have literally no idea what you're talking about. it's a word salad.

[Heartless]

Either that or you really think me of all people is going to try and buddy pablito

I'm suave and dapper as fuck bruh

And fucking dripping with swag

das kewl

Spoiler: What SWAG Looks Like

[Heartless]

628 wasn't your post. which post are you talking about?

[Heartless]

Post 628 was me speaking on behalf of victor and you're telling me it's scummy because that's not how town should be feeling. But if I'm guessing someone else's thought processes, how does that post represent my current feelings on the game?

So you're saying that pablito being "good hands" really isn't

your

opinion, but

Victor's

opinion and that's how you intended it all along?

You're moving the goalposts quite a bit and I call bullshit, sir.

[Heartless]

i'm not sure if i'm too drunk to understand this or not drunk enough

i'm p sure it's the latter

[Heartless]

for scum flubber who falls on his ass and then tries to bluster his way out... see chosen: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=58743

...and since i know flubber will bring up redemption, i'm going to go ahead and say that's the exception not the rule.

[Heartless]

ok, how about doa. that recent enough?
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=60729

[Heartless]

You still haven't caught me in the contradiction you "think" you have

No one accused you of contradicting yourself.

[Heartless]

I just sat on a shitty vanity wagon the whole time to try and stall the game

Oh? Tell me more.

[Heartless]

I don't want anyone to have a stroke. :c

DW, I know CPR.

SNAP

^shoot this , plz

[Heartless]

Such as?

[Heartless]

I think the best shots are Perpetual Nonsense and julien.

[Heartless]

Also @Heartless, I'm not shooting julien. So right now that means you're only nominating PN to be shot. You okay with that or would you rather give an extra name as well?

i'm actually pretty cool with that

[Heartless]

I very much doubt this development was uninfluenced by at least one of the scumteam. :\

[Heartless]

of course you will

[Heartless]

Anyway...

We've kind of been out of the game for a few days now and floating along. Our reads were in serious need of refreshment and we did it this morning. Anti and I had a great conversation about this at breakfast and we later co-wrote this post. I edited it to make it flow as best I could and make the writing styles mesh into one, but if there are point-of-view shifts know that we both wrote this. These aren't all-encompassing, but these are the most important reads.

How Our Reads Stand

Top Tier Townreads

: RedCoyote, Wanderer-nl, CB, Feirei

RedCoyote got off to a slow start which I took as a red flag, but his play improved significantly as the game went on. There are little points in his favor, like him telling Victor what he didn't want to hear (Post 601), but overall his reads look legit. For a perfect example of what I'm talking about, look no further than the read on Jeanne (Post 718). There's really no reason for him to defend her regardless of her actual alignment. It's a town read on an unpopular slot, but he doesn't lean on it too hard to where it comes off as white-knight-ish or over-the-top. The fact that Nacho town read him and apparently has a rapport with RedCoyote doesn't hurt either.

I town read Wanderer very early on and while I can understand what TTH's causes for concern were, I have no reason to look back. Going through the ISO, there's disturbances in continuity which I think flow pretty well and don't seem to be helpful in pushing a pro-scum agenda (i.e. the change of attitude on shooting lurkers and the change of heart on enomis). None of what she says seems cookie-cutter and just what everyone wants to hear. That, by itself, is pretty good evidence for a town mindset.

What TTH and Suzune have had to say about CB has shaken my faith a little in the CB townread, which I haven't touched in a while. Now that I've thought about it, CB is a tough case but I'm going to trust my gut here and keep him as town for a few reasons. It's true that he does speak in generalities and theory a lot, but that's a pretty common strategy newbs employ since that's really the only handle they have to grab onto to get them into the game. There's just the right about of cheekiness mixed in there and the reads flow pretty appropriately (the julien read in Post 695 is a good example of what I'm talking about).

Feirei's a bit of a leap of faith since Feirei himself didn't really do much, but I think my gut's good on this one and I really don't see the early game play from deep-city-lights coming from scum. The abrasiveness in Post 665 is appropriate, not over-the-top, and comes off as townish and the scum read on vonflare is pretty good.

---

People I would nominate for shooting:

vonflare, MaxwellPuckett, Flubbernugget

vonflare is a universal scumread for very good reason. He caught a lot of heat in the early game, the heat died down, and he subsequently went on to... start active lurking and doing fuck all to actually advance the game or develop his reads. We were promised a case on West9 which, shockingly, we never got (Post 635). The reason he gave for scumreading West9 is kind of strawmanny and awkward in the first place. Not following through on what's reportedly a big scum read shows that he doesn't really give a shit who gets shot and is just kind of floating along with mushy reads.

---

Now, let's revisit our favorite old friend, Flubbernugget.
Let me just start off this rant by calling all sorts of bullshit all over the "this is townFlubber meta" crowd. Bullshit. You want a game where Flubber gets caught with his pants down and then starts blustering about misrep and how it's oh-so-scummy to push him? Here's Drawn on Arrival again. If you're short on time, just go to Flubber's ISO and then search for "Marquis," who (correctly) called him as scum and was subsequently engaged in bluster-filled 1v1 similar to the one we're having now. How do I know the push on us right now is bullshit? Because, at it's core, it's founded on nothing other than "they're scumreading me" and instead of proving why the push is scum-motivated, he chooses to pick stupid side battles on petty bullshit and hammer away on those. The crap about pablito at the beginning of the day is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Instead of just head-on confronting our accusation of him kissing pablito's ass with a "no I wasn't" he takes everyone down a rabbit hole of semantics and some horse shit about how he was just speculating on behalf of Victor and some generalities about the merits of Nacho's posting.

It's all noise.

Why?

So that he can get this:

I think the Heartless vs Flubber is Town vs Town

I was hoping to never end up being named in a post like this

Excuse me while I cry myself to sleep

Oh bullshit. This is exactly what he wanted. To make enough noise to where people would just go "fuck it. it's TvT." He doesn't give a shit about the read on us. If he actually did, it would actually exist for the whole game to see and judge. He would actually be

pushing a read

instead of just screaming and putting us on "shoot" lists, which he knows damn good and well pablito has no intention of following. He knows the push doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell. But instead of doing what town would do, shove it down everyone else's throats, he's riding the shouting match to townreads via the lazy "Town v Town" that's so fucking typical on this site.

Super fun bonus

: If vonflare ends up being a scum goon, you can add "turbobussed a useless scumbuddy for towncred" to the similarities between DoA and here.

---

Maxwell is a scumread of ours that seems to be in the collective blind spot because he's "active." Not so. Actual "activity" in the ISO is a lot lower than his post count would suggest. The reads he actually conform pretty well to the consensus. The notable exception is the objection to Nacho's strategy (Post 701), which I think is crappy, cookie-cutter, and not really appropriate for the situation anyway. The thing that bugs me the most about it is the really elliptical way he goes about the read on us. What "flips and information" is he waiting on that's going to shore up the read? We don't know and he never tells us. It's just kind of a generic thing to say that doesn't really address anything and isn't really appropriate to the conversation.

[Heartless]

I feel like I'm going to regret this, but I'm going to take off Flubbernugget off the shot list for this DP. Flubber has come alive in a huge way for me during this DP from the beginning to the end. There's enough activity and enough aggressiveness that I'm strongly reconsidering my read on Flubber. I am open to expanding and explicating on my read on Flubber. But from the field, I would much prefer if you try to avoid mentioning Flubber for now. I'd much rather you try to convince me on who I should shoot of all the others. I will comment more on Flubber later before I make a shot.

Spoiler:

[Heartless]

i still want to say PN is a good shot because bert and i should have a pretty good rapport here and our dynamic is nonexistent. when he was town he didn't avoid me like this.

[Heartless]

hey titus

[Heartless]

WE should shoot flubbernugget and if flubbernugget is scum, WE should shoot Jeanne, Wanderer and CB

hey bert, plz walk me through the wanderer read. tia.

[Heartless]

Hmm, an idea here.

The gun person picks a pool. The gun person may change the pool on who to shoot as time progresses. We all talk about our reads within that pool. It forces association and narrows focus. It's an old trick that I used awhile back. The downside to it was that it disrupted naturally forming wagons. This game doesn't have that though.

For instance, Gun Person says Adam, Charlie and Brett are all lurking. Pick one for me to shoot.

That's exactly what pablito is doing. Titus, we don't need a system. We've already got that. Please spend your time here forming reads.

CB, Anti will have to answer your questions since those paragraphs are his.

[Heartless]

What is the system y'all decided on?

I am approaching the game with skepticism because only town have been shot. That means sorting Wandererer and Heartless.

pablito's the gunbearer and he's stated that he has the discussion pool narrowed to three: Perpetual Nonsense, West9, and enomis. This was actually a telescoping list that started off longer and got shorter as the week went on. He wants the discussion centered around those three slots. Since your slot's been a blank all game, though, I think it's OK if you gave a more comprehensive view of your reads.

[Heartless]

As strange as PN has been in this game. I sort of get a town read from him. He does not always have the same opinion as everyone else and scum would typically want to sheep in order to not draw attention to themselves.

AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHKL;DSJ;LKOIESASFKD

see, that's what gives me pause on bert because the last time i saw pn as scum he was real "go with the flow" in terms of the voting pattern.

but, there's damning stuff in the meta:
>i'm also seeing the same "oh woe is me, we're going to be lynched" that i saw from the scum game
>bert's avoiding me, which he didn't do as town

[Heartless]

not cute

[Heartless]

Meanwhile I've made several attempts to interact with you where I thought you were wrong and instead of working with me to get us on the same page you just let TTH pms all over the thread.

i am fucking done with you

don't talk to me

ever

[Heartless]

Why are you telling Flubber to calm down only when both sides could use a time out (if town)? I'm hoping having to back up and explain their points will cause them to realize it's a game and to chill out.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck that

this is completely not about the game anymore. tth DOES NOT DESERVE that kind of sexist, dismissive horseshit. that is so many levels of disrespectful and it pisses me off.

i've said my piece about flubber. if you want to read it, go read it. i'm not going to talk about it again.

[Heartless]

Titus, do you have any reads?

[Heartless]

Flubber, do you even know why heartless and I are currently pissed off at you?

I'm assuming it has something to do with his use of "PMS" to enforce a negative stereotype about women and our mental faculties during menstrual cycle? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't really know for sure. Personally, I'm not one for political correctness and I don't think Flubber was being that literal. Anti's "protective big brother" neural circuit went into overdrive and now we have mounting indignation about the "PMS" comment. But I think Flubber did hit on an important reality.

I am a bitch.

That's what Flubber was really implying. I'm a bossy, condescending, abrasive, annoying, arrogant, impossible, unlikable bitch. And it's true. All of it. Every single one of those adjectives is an accurate description of me.

Well Flubber, I'm also a bitch that gets results. You know how you were bemoaning the fact Anti and I were "respected" players earlier Flubber? How do you think that came about? I'll let you in on something: it's because we have consistently good reads and we shove them down everyone's throat and we win games.

Now, you probably wonder why I get annoyed with you.

Here, I'll boil it down to one sentence for you:

You don't read.

You're approaching this game is an extremely egocentric way. You're so busy pushing a narrative that you're some fucking victim that you do it at the expense of everything else. So you react like everything is a slight or an attack against you when it isn't. Case in point: Post 344 and the subsequent "melt-down." In the original post, I was calling out on Perpetual Nonsense on shitposting. It wasn't even about you, and I was even giving you leeway on you making unexplained declarations. But you had to insert yourself and

defend yourself

from the attack that I wasn't making. And don't give me some bunk about how you were trying to get on the same page. You never were. You were trying to weave this narrative that poor little you is sitting over here and the big mean bullies are picking on you. That's all you've been doing since this whole thing started.

How do I know that? Here's how:

But defending myself is boring. And my favorite part of this post is that the scumtells you've accused me of committing exist in anti's scum play. Remember Dingus mafia? How many people did you make a scum case on? Just me? Oh. Okay. Look at how safe your scum list is. The only "exciting" read you have in your scum pile is Maxwell, which sounds like a sheep of RC's case. Also here's some DOA meta: in DOA you had incredibly original content that made the town look at the game differently. The rest of your list in this game is barely making reads your own.

All of this is demonstrably bullshit. How laughable that you accuse me of being unoriginal. You know how PN is a consensus scumread now? I did it first. Maxwell? Also mine, which I made

way

back in Post 397. And the stuff about DoA is a bunch of shit too. You don't give a rat's ass about extrapolating from meta. If you did, you would look at the game

you were in

where we were scum.

And now you're harping on a "contradiction" when no one ever accused you of that. Probably the most infuriating part of all this is the fact that you won't give an inch even when other people besides us re-explain what we're talking about to you. You don't ever step back and think, "What is the overall point of this conversation?" You dig your heels in and demand to see the

autopsied aliens

,

magic bullet

,

birth certificate

"contradiction."

The bottom line is that you don't care about scumhunting. You care about getting the best comeback and winning an argument. At this point, I can only hope you're scum because as town this behavior is nothing short of downright unseemly, sexism or none.

Flubber can have the last word. I'm sick of this conversation and it's clear pablito's not shooting either of us so it's not even accomplishing anything.

[Heartless]

Well the idea is that when I tried to talk to tth she melted down twice and I have no idea why

But the misrep with a dash of high-horse is noted

here's a tip: start with "the idea" instead of ratcheting the rhetoric up to "pms" because, whether you meant it or not, it's offensive and marginalizing and has well-known connotations that are beyond simple "melting down."

this isn't some sjw crap i'm trying to smugly push so that i could sit on my throne of moral superiority and chuckle. i got that out of my system when i was in college.

and no, i'm not going to run and get quadz up your ass so that he can force an apology out of you.



you're going to apologize to tth because you're decent and have empathy. you're going to apologize to tth because you realize she's a human being who has feelings and might have been hurt by what you said. and you're going to apologize because you have a heart and you know that no game is worth this:

I am a bitch.

That's what Flubber was really implying. I'm a bossy, condescending, abrasive, annoying, arrogant, impossible, unlikable bitch. And it's true. All of it. Every single one of those adjectives is an accurate description of me.

[Heartless]

Apology accepted, but it's doesn't make the fact of the matter any less true and I still acknowledge the fact that this is the way heated conversations in this game tend to go.

[Heartless]

i would consider west9 a lot better of a suspect w/: a max scum flip OR a flubber town flip.

i really think you should reconsider on max.

[Heartless]

vonflare, Lucky2u, millar13 have been prodded.

Scum team right here.

Hydra hijacked.

:\

[Heartless]

i would consider west9 a lot better of a suspect w/: a max scum flip OR a flubber town flip.

add "titus scum flip" to this list.

the chances of which is actually reasonably decent

[Heartless]

I've been doing some thinking (sorry pablito, but since you're giving me so much time, this is what you get: my ramblings).

I think the game makes a

lot

more sense letting go of a Flubber scum read. I think this fits together better: vonflare, Perpetual Nonsense, Lucky2u, West9, Titus, MaxwellPuckett, millar13

[Heartless]

I don't think Titus is scum.

why is that?

[Heartless]

psych out detected

[Heartless]

I still want Enomis shot the most.

out of everyone?

[Heartless]

tth is kind of burnt out and i'm starting to feel it too

don't really have anything to say so i'll restate that any these shots would be good: titus, max, pn, vonflare

[Heartless]

nope. west9 goes next.

[Heartless]

indifference, impatience...

can't say Max's flip is shocking - WE found his wordiness to be a hindrance when evaluating the slot, so our read was - Null. Well, that can be said for the walls WE have encountered thus far. WE skip walls.

OUR preference is non-traditional - shoot from the HEART. Itchy fingers, target and only THEN feel contrition

now i'm standing
alone
in a crowded room

and we're not speeeeeeeeeeeakin'

and i'm
dyin' to know
if it's killin' you

like
it's
killin'

meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
yeah

[Heartless]

Yeah, because no one's more metal than Taylor Swift.

Spoiler:

[Heartless]

As for West, his towniness should be evident and I can't see why anyone thinks he is scummy. *shrug*

Associatives. There's a couple things:

I find Max's reasoning for certain townreads and certain shot-advocacy positions awkward, recent examples being his insta-townread on Suzane and his pretty blatant co-opting of my townreads. I think that this slot could be scum-awkward or town-awkward. RC talked a while ago about how it'd be really easy for scumMax to mold his behavior in order for him to not stand out, and I think he is outspoken enough on certain things (his take on PN in 661 and his opposition to a do-not-shoot list, in particular) for me to be leaning town on him.

West had made plenty of little comments to Max up to that point that seem like they would raise concerns. But when the chips were down and pablito confronted him about his Max read, he managed to find a reason to come down on a "lean town" read for reasons that are piggybacked off of Red Coyote and don't really stand up to any amount of thought.

Max maintained West as a town read throughout the game for very little reason and got pretty involved in West's defense; Post 832 is a good example of that. There's also the fact that, in general, West seems to be enjoying a pretty high level of defense for reasons that just aren't ever hashed out. This is evidenced by the simple fact that absolutely no one looked West's way when he ended up in your shortlist.

[Heartless]

@Heartless, 832 looks more like an enomis associative to me. One of the pair is likely scum.

Even supposing that Maxwell's reasons didn't stand up to scrutiny meaning he's scum, he could have been buddying West. Those associatives you are arguing are not evidence.

it's really shallow for a buddy attempt

i'm still waiting on something good from you, btw

[Heartless]

those who stir the shit pot should have to lick the spoon

[Heartless]

c'mon big man

come on out from behind your shitty pot shots and make a case. i'd love to see you try with that max flip.

[Heartless]

@Heartless, 832 looks more like an enomis associative to me. One of the pair is likely scum.

Even supposing that Maxwell's reasons didn't stand up to scrutiny meaning he's scum, he could have been buddying West. Those associatives you are arguing are not evidence.

:\
It's possible. I looked back at enomis' ISO and I see a repeated motif of townreading just Wanderer and Max. Max's read of enomis remained pretty hazy bu the pushed it pretty hard, especially in his last post (Post 990) where he made the appeals to popularity to double down on he vonflare and PN shots.

[Heartless]

kinda' rethinking my julien/suzune slot read

julien was one of max's lukewarm scum reads until suzune replaced in and did stuff when he gave the NOBODY SHOOT THIS SLOT post (Post 828). the subsequent backpedaling in Post 832 when he's called out on it is what kind of gets me because i don't necessarily see why he'd do that to a town slot.

[Heartless]

Oh, and Flubbie.

I'm going to repeat Anti's sentiment here.

Nut up or shut up.

We're not going to go back on our read on Red Coyote just because he said "good job" after a scum flip. There needs to be a lot better of a reason than that, especially given Max's loud bitching and moaning about Nacho/pabilto's suggested town block. At this point, you're being petty and anti-town at best and scummy at worst. pablito's not going to shoot us so the only purpose you're serving is pushing Anti's buttons.

You seriously think we're scum? You've seen each of us individually as scum in 2 games and this hydra as scum in one. I don't know how you could really think we're scum given what you've seen of our body of work. I'm even more perplexed given the face my

unique, original

scum read

just flipped scum as the direct result of our efforts

.

[Heartless]

So what do you think?

we're going to be doing another group brainstorming session on this game tonight and putting together another reads list so you might want to hold your horses for a sec plz

[Heartless]

I was going to write a post.

Fuck it. I'm tired.

[Heartless]

My only response to heartless is a retraction of my apology to tth

stay classy, man

[Heartless]

west9's recent posting has actually been pretty awesome so i wouldn't recommend that shot

[Heartless]

Well his case on me is terrible

summarize this game's mechanic in a sentence.

[Heartless]

I like coyotes 375 and maxwells response in 377, they look town.

Heartless, why do you think maxwell and coyote are scum?

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

:\

:/

:\

yeah, i was thinking about vonflare being such a popular target and that was kinda' bothering me, but there's little things like this that just get me

[Heartless]

Are you drunk? What a coincidence! I am too!

[Heartless]

Because you said "ya'll," your questions to Flubber are rambling, and you called Kari "darlin'."

[Heartless]

Would you like to start us off then, Monkeyman?

[Heartless]

The bottom line is if heartless's town reads are expressing a similar behavior as their scum reads then something is wrong.

Appropriate: High-fiving after someone shoots scum.
Not-so-appropriate: High-fiving right after someone gets the gun.

There's a difference sweetie.

[Heartless]

The bottom line is really that you're mad at me for Anti scum reading you.

I suggest you get over that.

[Heartless]

:S
Am I mad?
I was unaware.

[Heartless]

Let's start from square one, Flubber. What do you mean by "discredit to one of the axiom's of the case on me"?

Honey, that is not anywhere

near

square one.

[Heartless]

What's wrong with a Vonflare shot?

possibly nothing, however it does stand to reason that the town has usually made a bad call when the votes are locked and little discussion is happening. That usally means the mafia has gotten into a comfy position. Personally insupport of a vonflare shot but still...

Still what?

Please finish the thought because I have a lot of concerns about you and your slot and this mealy-mouthing isn't helping.

Mostly, it's the things Anti already pointed out in Post 828 and Post 832. wanderer was dismissing him by saying that Max could have been buddying, but I think that's pretty cogently contradicted by the fact Max immediately backtracked and distanced himself from his own read ("I think it's going too far to say she's super-confirmed town, or even my strongest townread.") That doesn't say "scum trying to collect town cred by town reading a townie" to me.

If you want to say that reads aren't your thing or whatever, that's fine; but your posts continuing to be mushy is now to the point of awkwardness.

[Heartless]

OK, so you think vonflare is too much of a consensus and there's scum in the Nacho-pablito town block. That's what I'm getting.

Who does this implicate, specifically, and how do you get to that?

Son of a bitch

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

Anti already said something similar dearie; so no, I will not feel guilty for making you give specifics.

[Heartless]

Spoiler: My pair

No need to apologize it's still just fine.

[Heartless]

i think Gaiden will want a hero-shot (that is what I call them in this game) on Titus. I am more paranoid of what she's capable of, and fearing she will go on and carry the scum to a win. Who else would actually shoot Empress?

*raises hand*
o/

I would.

[Heartless]

Yes you where lurking PN, but I just did not feel suspicious about the motivation behind it.

vonflae lurking = scum

PN lurking = town

plex exploin

my earlier question to you wasn't rhetorical.

the only way your whole "max is town" think ISN'T a scum slip is if you legit forgot the mechanics of the game entirely which is kind of unlikely given how much everyone's talked about them and how we've already been through the cycle twice.

furthermore, your case on west is just a summary and face-plantingly awful and your deflection to pn reeks. furthermore,

vonflare is a universal scumread for very good reason. He caught a lot of heat in the early game, the heat died down, and he subsequently went on to... start active lurking and doing fuck all to actually advance the game or develop his reads. We were promised a case on West9 which, shockingly, we never got (Post 635). The reason he gave for scumreading West9 is kind of strawmanny and awkward in the first place. Not following through on what's reportedly a big scum read shows that he doesn't really give a shit who gets shot and is just kind of floating along with mushy reads.

this.

plz die.

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

[Heartless]

New reads list tonight.

[Heartless]

@everyone: Why do you townread Titus?

because titus, as scum, USUALLY doesn't bus. and titus-scum has some markers that i look for that are distinctly not there.
i'm ready to add titus to the "never ever shoot ever" list

tth's list:

vonflare

,

Perpetual Nonsense

, Lucky2u, West9, Titus,

MaxwellPuckett

, millar13

i think lucky2u and millar13's slot (monkeyman) are good on this list.
i would replace titus with enomis' slot (what's his face).
and i would replace west9 with suzune.

[Heartless]

lucky-monkey drama reads like scum theater to me

[Heartless]

I very much approve of that shot.

[Heartless]

lucky-monkey drama reads like scum theater to me

It does to me too. The rhetoric is exaggerated and kind of schmaltz-y, especially on Lucky's end.

Spoiler:

No, but that doesn't make lucky a bad choice.

I'm just offering him up as an option

.

are you backing off me because you see people disagreeing? LOL

No, but that doesn't make lucky a bad choice.

I'm just offering him up as an option

.

are you backing off me because you see people disagreeing? LOL

Not at all. I think you'd be a good shoot. I'm just trying to see things from other people point of view.

Let's do this monkey style (aka putting words in people's mouth and making assumptions)

Translation: I am backing off but have too much pride to say so. I am reiterating the opinion but wording it in a way where it now sounds I have doubt. I'm now trying to align myself with the consensus to fit in and hopefully not get shot.

1^Yes, I do not want to get shot. How is that not pro-town?

How is discussing things with other players not pro-town?

Meanwhile, you have advocated lynching on the basis of hydra status, and

2^you agreed with flubber that questioning town is bad

.

3^I'll let other players decide which is more worthy of helping/hurting town.

1. I don't fear getting shot. It only gives me the power, makes me stronger, makes me feared. Also it confirms me as town so that's awesome.

2. Did I?

3. This is a scum appeal if I've saw one.

[Heartless]

Excellent. So you know monkey's going to flip scum.

[Heartless]

I don't share Titus' optimism in the enomis slot flipping scum, mostly because Fromage's case doesn't look like a "just go for the weak link" kind of thing that's typical in scum entrances and ika's entrance is acceptable.

[Heartless]

#rekt

[Heartless]

TTH when you get on talk to me about reads.

Yes, I think there's a lot that points to Titus being town and I'm a little baffled that you seem to think otherwise.
First, there's the plain fact that Titus has advocated in some form or other for every flipped scum (minus Max) death so far. Every time I've seen Titus as scum (Making Friends, Signs and Void), she takes really strained angles to protect her buddies and push for town lynches. Reckless bussing doesn't seem to be in the Titus-scum play book; do you have any evidence otherwise?

Then there's the angle the flipped scum have taken on her.

Spoiler: From Perpetual Nonsense

i think Gaiden will want a hero-shot (that is what I call them in this game) on Titus. I am more paranoid of what she's capable of, and fearing she will go on and carry the scum to a win. Who else would actually shoot Empress? If the inactive or superficially scummy people keep flipping up town, then gotta go for what you believe, not what's the theoretically "consensus" shot. I don't know if it's the fact that she doesn't know who WE consist of, but realistically it's very unlike her to not be tunneling us already and pointing out how scummy we have been from the get-go. Like right from the beginning.

Their read on Titus was really waffley aside from this paragraph, which goes for the paranoia angle. "Shoot her or else she could burn you." That fits the profile for trying to push a bad shot more closely than bussing.

How have you developed the reads you have so far, ika?

[Heartless]

1) called distancing and gaining town cred

Right, but people do it to varying degrees. Some people, like sthar8 and Jingle, bus very liberally. Some people, like Titus and Antihero, hardly ever bus.

2) it going to be smaticsh here but we dont haev lynches, we have a gun bearer who can fucking shoot. thats majorly diffrent
3) its not reckelss, its called makign stances that allow herself to look good regarldess

I don't think the mechanic has as much, or the same kind, of influence over play style that you're suggesting.

4) do you think that they would acutly push ahrder or just make a blantent staement

I don't really do these kinds of hypotheticals.

5) from what i have been following and interactions

Sweetie, I'm asking you to elaborate on what those are.

[Heartless]

Excellent. So you know monkey's going to flip scum.

Was going to Make a shot off of this but I shot monkey for losing his argument to lucky

The "argument" had all the authenticity of a WWE match. :\

[Heartless]

does it matter? the end results we have right now is that we shot scum

@_@

[Heartless]

To be honest, I'm kind of chasing my own tail on my reads right now. :S

I think lucky's the best bet. In the muddled middle are Suzune, ika, Wanderer, and West.

[Heartless]

Well, RC's already flipped so I'm not too concerned about that slot. :/

CB's kind of fallen off my radar because I've seen no reason to reverse the town read I had on him earlier.

[Heartless]

well... my reads are officially ass this game

tth's tail chasing is going to be approximately a million times more accurate than my insane ramblings, so.... yeah. feel free to ignore me.

[Heartless]

X|

[Heartless]

I like a West9 shot more now.

[Heartless]

I'll think about West. Him pushing the shot on you even though you weren't on my previous list is

!

to me but I have to look him over later. I

still

think lucky is a good bet. I would advise against a CB shot right now, but I'll freshen up that read anyway.

[Heartless]

i think ive made it prtty clear atm: me/flub/you and wander is comign around based on how she want about her dump of info and apathy

Walk me through the wanderer read a little more please, because I'm not on the same page there.
The reason she actually came back into my "muddled" pile

was

the apathy. Having four scumflips come in relatively quick succession shouldn't breed apathy for town, in my opinion.

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

[Heartless]

chill, i know tth is better at this game than i am.

learn2sarcasm

[Heartless]

but its not t make you feel liek your shit.

good, because i'll have you know that i can feel like shit JUST FINE BY MYSELF

/mumble mumblemubmdsakb;lajlv;emiw;ofie;waimfa3;f

[Heartless]

i think ive made it prtty clear atm: me/flub/you and wander is comign around based on how she want about her dump of info and apathy

Walk me through the wanderer read a little more please, because I'm not on the same page there.
The reason she actually came back into my "muddled" pile

was

the apathy. Having four scumflips come in relatively quick succession shouldn't breed apathy for town, in my opinion.

anti or tth? cus if its anti i dont have much to say.

if its tth then her interactiosn with me feel geunine and not from a manpiulative standpoint. im more then happy to be proven wrong but if i become gun bearer shes not in my vig list atm

Spoiler:

Alllllllllllllllllllllright-y. Do you have any scum reads outside of Titus?

[Heartless]

Is it wrong to think Ika is town because Fromage had to replace out after an "issue" was resolved?

I was actually thinking about that myself. The only issue I can think of if the slot it scum is that Fromage said something

really

inappropriate and offensive in the scum private topic. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would do something like that, though, and I think there would be a ban in order if that were the case. Otherwise, the only thing I can think of that requires force-replacement is some kind of compromised gamestate, which requires Fromage being town and learning something he shouldn't have. :S

[Heartless]

Honesty time. Is there any reason for Kari being in your list other than "she's not posting a lot"?

I still think West9 is the best shot.

[Heartless]

Fucking really?
Idle speculation over something that froze the game

for days

just offends you

that much

that you just refuse to talk about anything now?

[Heartless]

Fucking really?
Idle speculation over something that froze the game

for days

just offends you

that much

that you just refuse to talk about anything now?

not so much the speulation, its more of the fact you guys are going to town read me for that.
it give me 0 grounds to scum hunt anything off anyone and give scums a perfect opertunity to go with the flow
fuck off anti

It's actually me; Anti is too cool for his Shift key and italics is my thing.
If you want to tell me to fuck off, I'm not really bothered by that. I am kind of annoyed that you're getting bent out of shape over nothing. I'm going to use

any

the information available to me to form reads. If that's outside the bounds of what you find "acceptable" there's not much I can do about that. Since you already told me you're feeling like shit, I'll be as sensitive as I can. Shutting down on me isn't going to help things, though.

This game is

very

winnable, as long as we don't let apathy sink it's claws in. But why should it? There's four scum flips, a

ton

of information to go on, and only three more good shots to go. Isn't everyone excited?! I am. This is what I play mafia for.