Open 596: Mega PopCorn Mafia - Over

[Nachomamma8]

/confirm

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know what that is

[Nachomamma8]

:/
I'm not really that comfortable with your motivations in posting it.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm really, really not.

[Nachomamma8]

80085

boobs!

Vote: Heartless

[Nachomamma8]

/in be4 "troloolololol he's vengeful nyucknyucknyucknyucknyucknyucknyucknyucknyucknyuck"

antihero baby come close to me

[Nachomamma8]

i love you like a brother more than tth loves you like a brother

[Nachomamma8]

but really?

[Nachomamma8]

???
why?

[Nachomamma8]

but really?

that's my question

i very incredibly obviously wasn't serious at all

[Nachomamma8]

i'm ashamed in you for believing i seriously expected you for posting a picture of a cat

shame on you, anti dear

[Nachomamma8]

oh you didn't actually have a serious reason/belief?

[Nachomamma8]

oh you didn't actually have a serious reason/belief?

What are you talking about?

Is your belief of Heartless being Vengeful a serious one?
Why?

[Nachomamma8]

seems i wasn't

the only one

who missed your joke, though

>_> <_< >_> <_<

yeah apparently tth missed it too

[Nachomamma8]

unless she was just letting you freak out for her own amusement, which isn't entirely unbelievable

[Nachomamma8]

Can we get tth in here

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

oh you didn't actually have a serious reason/belief?

What are you talking about?

Is your belief of Heartless being Vengeful a serious one?
Why?

I wouldn't say anything I don't believe, unless I'm being sarcastic.

Why do you think Heartless is Vengeful?

[Nachomamma8]

yeah apparently tth missed it too

i was implying that scum missed it b/c scum gave you the gun but whtvr...

i actually don't know if tth missed it or not. we haven't talked about this game yet.

I'd consider myself a pretty decent choice for an early gunbearer. Better to have me die early than to have me influencing the game for 4-5 phases.

[Nachomamma8]

dcl is my current thought for a shot on an active player, yeah

[Nachomamma8]

does vengeful immediately shoot killer or does vengeful get a choice?

[Nachomamma8]

To be honest I don't remember signing up for this game... Seems like fun though. How the hell do you scum hunt in this?

generally you act super town and attack everything you see and eventually you get a gun and you make it rain blood
can you handle that?

[Nachomamma8]

for the record, i don't really have plans on taking shots until 6 days from now or so (or earlier if content is generated quickly), will see flip, take maybe half a day to see if i need to reassess reads, then keep shooting until i'm dead in the ground somehow

[Nachomamma8]

does vengeful immediately shoot killer or does vengeful get a choice?

rephrase it.
im confused

if i shoot the mafia vengeful, do i automatically die?
or can mafia vengeful kill you?

[Nachomamma8]

?

[Nachomamma8]

i brought up a gameplan so that it could be discussed
if you disagree, then discussion is generally the best course of action

[Nachomamma8]

we have a two week deadline

[Nachomamma8]

also, is there a reason you haven't talked about why you think heartless is vengeful or no

[Nachomamma8]

i'd be interested in your opinions on heartless/dcl

[Nachomamma8]

I only signed up for this game because I thought it would be quick and fun. If you're serious about your over a week-long plan, then that's just stupid.

6 days isn't a long time
it's generally a good idea to generate a lot of content and interactions before death starts happening
18 player games really are very rarely "quick and fun"

[Nachomamma8]

also, is there a reason you haven't talked about why you think heartless is vengeful or no

I assumed you were just being obstinately oblivious. But I hate all the people immediately shouting "SHOOT ME" - you obviously can't shoot them all, and I'm pretty sure there's actual scum calling your bluff in Heartless, Jeanne, and whoever else was doing that.

I was more interested in why you specifically called scum in Heartless: while I'm not necessarily sure on his alignment, I think his response was fairly reasonable if he believed I genuinely suspected their slot because his hydra partner posted a picture of a cat.

[Nachomamma8]

I only signed up for this game because I thought it would be quick and fun. If you're serious about your over a week-long plan, then that's just stupid.

6 days isn't a long time
it's generally a good idea to generate a lot of content and interactions before death starts happening
18 player games really are very rarely "quick and fun"

not for day 1 though.

Hmmm?

[Nachomamma8]

I only signed up for this game because I thought it would be quick and fun. If you're serious about your over a week-long plan, then that's just stupid.

6 days isn't a long time
it's generally a good idea to generate a lot of content and interactions before death starts happening
18 player games really are very rarely "quick and fun"

not for day 1 though.

Hmmm?

day 1 that lasts long, is normally an rvs of pointlessness.
unless someone looks reaally scummy, ;like dlc

Last time we played this, we let D1 last until we had okay to solid reads on the entirety of the playerlist: the RVS/not-seriousness bit ends when we begin to get reads we are significantly more confident about.

[Nachomamma8]

If I'm right about you being inclined to think they're town off of that, then that's also illogical.

And maybe I just trust the innocent-looking ones too much (I'll try to ignore this, but seriously I think this might be a problem for me), but Jeanne's obnoxiousness without ill will reads town a lot more strongly than Heartless's anger. I think it makes sense for them to be scum who don't want to be shot for silly reasons.

I'm not inclined to find it town simply because the reaction makes sense if that's a genuine belief regardless of their alignment.
Your explanation makes sense, thanks.

[Nachomamma8]

But at this level of activity or something close to it, I think shooting in only half that time will be just as productive, if not more because then there'll be less apathy.

I agree.

[Nachomamma8]

vonflare

[Nachomamma8]

I thought Nacho was just joking around but Heartless's reaction seemed like they had a history.

we have a "history" but not a history like talking about an ex girlfriend to a new girlfriend "we have history" but more i know him and i play games with him and we have a good time.

[Nachomamma8]

and i'm likely out for the night, be good while I'm gone!!

[Nachomamma8]

Wow a lot of activity already. Is there bad blood between Nacho and Heartless? Mafia may have gunned him to get him to shoot Heartless.

I thought Nacho was just joking around but Heartless's reaction seemed like they had a history.

Hey CB, wanna lynch CB?
It seems you already want to.

Hey Berty!
Does this post mean you're scum reading CB?

[Nachomamma8]

It's possible that Heartless is scum and that this is the reasoning that scum want us to follow, but at the moment I'm choosing to think that's less likely, as it seems more high-risk than the alternative of, you know, not posting a cat picture.

If Heartless was scum, I don't find it overly likely that they would know I would attack them because of a cat picture.

I vote that we use votes, despite the cosmetic nature.

When I read the set-up, I thought about something that happened in a Lights Out 1 (completed theme park game in 2006) where Pooky created a referendum-based voting system to create a papertrail to ensure that there was always something to look back at. And in a game with "cosmetic votes", I think we need to do something specific to ensure that everyone can be held to some standard. Thoughts?

I also remember Kingmaker (and the subsequent other versions...I think there was a consulmaker too?) where there were several other voting methods in a game where a small number had power to decide the "lynch".

I personally will be listening far more to the content of people's votes and why they suspect who they suspect as opposed to who has a vote down where. Why didn't you talk about any suspicions/town reads that you've had at this point?

[Nachomamma8]

'Whoever else' includes dcl (129) so this just feels awkward to me.

It is hypocritical, yes. But I have trouble viewing it as scummy: I think that dcl, regardless of her alignment, would be aware that she made the "shoot me" play not even two pages ago, and that as scum, she would be less likely to use that as her reasoning for her primary suspicion. Am I approaching this wrong?

Also, if she really thinks there's scum in the people calling to shoot them, then why not check back to see who exactly it were instead of writing 'whoever else'?

This sort of laziness seems null to me.

[Nachomamma8]

trolling, probobly, but if he keeps it up it could be seen as active lurking.

This part of the read heavily implies that you're reading him as town. Why do you have him as a scum read?

But that one post seemed pretty pro-town, advocating using votes.

I disagree. The only thing that's pro-town at this juncture is analysis and pressuring while posting "hey guys we should all vote because it worked in the past!" is very decidedly null.

most of his posts are 3-5 words.

So?

[Nachomamma8]

trolling, probobly, but if he keeps it up it could be seen as active lurking.

This part of the read heavily implies that you're reading him as town. Why do you have him as a scum read?

But that one post seemed pretty pro-town, advocating using votes.

I disagree. The only thing that's pro-town at this juncture is analysis and pressuring while posting "hey guys we should all vote because it worked in the past!" is very decidedly null.

most of his posts are 3-5 words.

So?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm saying he might be a scumread

I'm not really sure what this is supposed to mean.

3) well, its not much to go on but not contributing while posting a lot is generally considered scummy.

why? if flubbernugget made all the posts he had in this game and condensed them all into one post, would he be less scummy?

[Nachomamma8]

its not like im lying about being ninjad... what could i gain from that?

You're offering a possible explanation for behavior that's causing a player to scumread you, which is a situation with clear motive to lie.
It's sort of difficult to believe that you got ninja'd for 20 minutes in a row :/

[Nachomamma8]

I propose that Nacho as the gunbearer (and subsequent ones that want to follow this tactic) make a short-list prior to shooting the gun and forcing everyone to comment on the shortlist to ensure that we have information before a shot is made. The voting as it is can only guarantee that votes (if even done at all) are on the spread, rather than commenting on the specific action by the gunbearer. That's what I remember from Kingmaker.

I'm planning on releasing a series of short lists as suspicions solidify, although I'm probably going to take more of a pressuring/questioning role early on so that people's thoughts solidify organically as opposed to following my confirmed town lead. I think your referendum idea is a good one; it has more depth than I thought it might, and I think that the most important thing to keep in mind with this setup is that activity flags hard when gunbearer ignores the opinions of the players surrounding them. As a result, I wouldn't mind taking point on making sure this system gets implemented by composing summarizing people's major suspicions as I pick up on them.

[Nachomamma8]

the readlist, admittedly, is not much. but the game just begain, i have not much to go on.

What are the reads you care about?

[Nachomamma8]

And that's the only read you care about (aka don't see it changing in the near future)?

[Nachomamma8]

Then doing a re-read and voting for someone who mentioned about the game tactic and not fully understanding it.

What game tactic are you referring to that dcl didn't fully understand?

I would've suspected that wanderer-nl would have picked up on more in a re-read than a retread of what others are doing.

Did someone else attack dcl for similar reasons?

[Nachomamma8]

Why did you make a complete reads list if lucky was your only good read?

[Nachomamma8]

Why did you make a complete reads list if lucky was your only good read?

i felt it would be a good template for me to modify as the game goes on.

i'm afraid i don't really know what you mean by this

[Nachomamma8]

One question: what is 'being ninjad'?

whenever you post and then the forum is like "someone else already posted! would you like to post something else now that you see their post?"

[Nachomamma8]

Antihero, how is your West9 read looking?

[Nachomamma8]

I think proper wincondition would be "Mafia wins when their number is equal to that of the town players".

[Nachomamma8]

i know i know

[Nachomamma8]

but that means scum automatically lose when vengefuls are dead and town doesn't lose until town's numbers are equal to vengeful's numbers and that seems terrifyingly town sided to me

[Nachomamma8]

not this specific iteration, but yes

[Nachomamma8]

:/

[Nachomamma8]

So we need to shoot incorrectly 8 times before shooting 3 vengeful scum

[Nachomamma8]

Wanderer's post about vengeful mafia is making me think again.

@Pablito: I think goons would encourage vengeful to be shot because it kills town in the process. So there won't be as much resistance to a vengeful being shot than if a plain goon was in danger of being shot. Honestly, I don't really know, it also depends on how scum intend to play this game. Without them having a NK, it will be harder to sort things out.

This was the post that changed your mind? Why? What other suspicions do you have?

Also I now think Vonflare is unlikely to be the vengeful goon here. I think vengeful goons will probably play more cautiously here since their survival is the utmost importance and I don't think they would be the first one to come out with a read list on every single player in the game. That would be just be getting the unnecessary attention of every player.

Would it change your thinking at all if I pointed out that Mafia have the same win condition we do and were probably just as confused as we were until recently?

I dislike Flubber for similar reasons since he appears really defensive when being pressured. I understand the pressure against him is pretty weak and getting shot as town is against town's win condition but I still find it hard to get worked up over.

I didn't find his frustration particularly unreasonable. The specific point where Flubber gets frustrated in thread is where he is responding to pressure against him for the twitter post, which is sort of a ridiculous thing to be attacked for in the first place and thus the frustration regarding it seems justified regardless of alignment.

Of things that Flubber has done, I rather liked his pressure on Vonflare in 187, and I like his vote on Perpetual Nonsense (who I currently am scumreading). It isn't exactly enough for a townread on him, but it's enough to take him out of the shortlist I have three days into the game.

On my first read-through I thought Post 171 was an attempt to look participative without actually contribute anything (and I have a feeling that's why Antihero's scum reading him), but looking at all of West9's posts stacked in a row, it fits in with a general theme of "try to catch someone in a contradiction: Phoenix Wright GOTCHA' style." I think I spoke too soon on that one.

Perpetual Nonsense I don't have anything really solid on. Posting a lot and then asking for the shot (Post 163) felt off and so did his response to CB's opener (Post 164). I hardly thought CB's post was remarkable, and "seems you already want to." doesn't seem appropriate. Same goes for lucky; it's mostly intuition. He leaned a little too hard on CB's "the game is moving fast sentiment." (Post 241) It felt a little weird.

I agree with both of these reads. With regards to Bert, he's much much more unfiltered as town and he is as scum and usually has a very easy interaction with me. I find it suspicious he's had no reaction whatsoever to me being gunbearer (or had no reaction to me at all, considering how close we used to be in mafia games and how long it's been since we've played together), and I find it suspicious he's already stuck in a reread loop despite the game moving pretty slowly.

Enomis' shitposting was endearing but now I'm kinda yawning at it. I don't think it's scummy but I don't like it in general.

The interesting point about enomis is his discussion of the mafia win condition in thread. If I were in his position, I think I'd be much more likely to discuss how to hell I actually win the game in my mafia PT or in a private conversation with ArcAngel as opposed to in the thread where everyone could see: it's something that there's very clear mafia motivation for and it's also something that can draw a lot of attention, which is something that can be pretty incredibly dangerous for scum in a popcorn game.

I agree with your other reads.

Separate post for wanderer oncoming.

[Nachomamma8]

wanderer is very articulate and her theory posts hit all the right notes, which is why I'm surprised her actual scum reads (DCL and vonflare) are so bleh, bland, and unremarkable. It's particularly bothersome that the reasons for the vonflare vote were sub par even by early-game standards, her scumhunting is also very limited in scope to just two people who happened to draw quite a bit of attention at the time, and her reads track suspiciously closely with nacho's reads.

I agree that Wanderer is articulate and generally has a good grasp of theory, but she has been playing on site for less than two months so I'm guessing that a bit of leniency is warranted. I disagree that her reads are "bleh" for early-game standards, they seem pretty par for the course although I don't like that her focus has been limited to popular targets.

But then there's things like this:

I like this for town. Also, it made me smile.

It's funny Vonflare is townreading me for it. Guess I did get something out of my vote.

Yeah so I was just thinking that it's actually kind of weird Vonflare declared me town because he could have easily painted me scum, but that doesn't really matter in this setup.

@Heartless, I'm trying to figure out how to play this game and I don't even know how to respond further without blatantly dropping towntells.

Which while they don't necessarily have a lot of logic supporting this feeling (although the last quote would be a pretty brazen play from new-scum in a game like this), still feels good to me and still makes me not wanna shoot the slot.

[Nachomamma8]

I feel decently confident my first two shots are going to be RedCoyote and Lucky.

[Nachomamma8]

Bert is Perpetual Nonsense, right? Just checking.

Yes.

Of course you think they're great reads, ding dong. They're yours. In this case, the most readable thing she can do is produce legit reads and nothing you quoted indicates such.

Two things:
1) When both reads were expressed, I had already moved on from a scumread to a townread on the players she was talking about.
2) I didn't say they were great, I said they were par for the course based on not really much content generated at all, which I don't really think is an unfair comment to make at all. What makes her lack of legit reads more significant than anyone else's lack of legit reads?

I have more town reads than scum reads at the moment. I'm annoyed at the amount of lurking.

Who are your townreads? Who are your scumreads?

[Nachomamma8]

Another big thing to keep in mind is that if we have three good townreads, we win the game.
Before I shoot, I'd like to have three solid townreads I'm willing to bet a game on.

[Nachomamma8]

flubber asking for tth is really :\ :/ :\ :/ :\ :/
so are his reads.

What do you mean by this, exactly?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm in the middle of composing a readslist, but first, a reason why I'm focusing primarily on inactives first:

The only impact Mafia Goons can have on this setup is A) getting the gunbearer to shoot incorrectly, or B) acting as suspicious targets for Vengefuls to bus. The only scum that matter in this setup are the Vengefuls: for that reason, this game is basically an 11v3 No Lynching Town setup. For that reason, I expect many mafia goons to be pretty demotivated (since they have only a very very minute impact on their win condition), and thus people who are active lurking and doing absolutely nothing else are probably decent candidates for goons, especially after the win condition was made a bit clearer. I understand that people might be wary about giving a lurker the gun, but being afraid of having a bad gunbearer is a fear that can only hurt town. Scum will lurk. Scum need to be shot. If a lurker gets the gun, then it's up to the townies to step up and make their suspicions clear.

[Nachomamma8]

(Town ---> Scum)
CB: CB's posts this game have rang very genuine to me. Theory in 158 seems like it's coming from town since that's very certainly not what happened in the mafia thread. Talking about the vonflare trap in 238 additionally seemed like a bit of a paranoid but overall a very genuine concern which I also liked a lot. The paranoia directed towards pablito in 287[/url] for the "you seem like you know I'm town" is excellent excellent excellent, and the theory for the twitter post originally posited in 238 being followed up on in [post]337 looks absolutely fantastic because it shows that he's still thinking about and revisiting old lines of thought. This is a very town mindset.

pablito: I love the way pablito has formed the referendum and shortlist plans and the way he pushes for their implementation because it feels like a push from a townie who attempting to create the healthiest gamestate possible in order to push scum out. I like the aggression and lack of fear he has in pushing suspects. His immediate push in 198 on wanderer is a reflection of that (she hadn't garnered much suspicion yet + was agreeing with him so was likely to be an ally down the road) is a good example of that, and the way that he talks about his scumread on Maxwell in 438 additionally feels very genuine, and the push itself is good because of how strong a push it is against someone who has absolutely no pressure against him.

Wanderer: The "I'm trying to figure out to post without dropping towntells" statement in 259 is one that I've been thinking about a lot lately and I very strongly feel there's no way in hell it comes from scum. The frustration with the suspicion surrounding her in 441 is additionally a really good post if scum, and the last post of 383 is good aggression that seems very unlikely to come from scum who was just coming under a lot of pressure towards someone that just backed off. I will probably explain this read further in player-specific rebuttals since there's a lot of suspicion on the slot but I can't really see a scenario where I shoot her as long as I hold the gun.

Heartless: TTH (the posting head with proper capitalization) and Antihero (the posting head with bad grammar) both seem individually town. A small point in favor of them being town would be that I think they'd be unlikely to give me the gun if they thought that I did have a genuine scumread on them early game (which they did seem to believe, regardless of alignment). I like TTH's approach to me (in a "I think this is town" kind of way, not a "this isn't frustrating kind of way") in 290. I think that as scum she would be more focused on addressing my concerns then aggravating me, but as town, it's very easy to believe that someone isn't listening to you on a scumread when your scumread is sheeping them. The frustration TTH has in general (344, 389, 400) also seems to be coming from town.

Antihero's early pushes are okay. His "all of TTH's posts are so beautiful" seems like an angle he's unlikely to take as scum, and his attempt at aggravating me also seems decently town. I thought I had more of an individual townread on him, but he hasn't actually done all that much that's interesting this game (although the disagreement with TTH on the wanderer read felt like a genuine push).

deep-city-lights: I liked her reaction to my week long plan ("fuck that, just shoot me"). It seemed like a fairly townie response coming from a place where she didn't want to be dragged through a game that was unnecessarily long and felt genuine to a point where I feel she would have trouble faking it if she were scum. I liked her distinction between Heartless and Jeanne in 150 because it was good reasoning, and I liked that she pushed it despite having a "shoot me" moment of her own earlier (I feel scum are less likely to do things like that because it so obviously points back to them, while town are likely to provide beliefs regardless of how it makes them look). I like her reaction to RedCoyote's post in 409[/url].

Maxwell: I like Maxwell's excitement early game. [post]263 (I think that vengeful mafia are less likely to make risky posts, but me saying that might change that) reads as a pretty genuine line of thought. I also actually really like the scumread on julien: julien was a player I've been thinking about while typing up this readslist that I'm going to revisit after it's done, and I do think that there's scum in the anti-wanderer push and I think julien might be a strong push for it. His tone in the beginning of 329 and the end 398 is good, and the frustration expressed in 456 about me shooting to stay alive (which is not what I'm doing, by the way) is also good.

West9: The push on vonflare is very genuine, I like it a lot. In particular, 188 is good aggression, 194 is a good catch, 208 mirrors my own thoughts on the vonflare slot. I also liked his reaction to me providing my shortlist the most. He expressed dissatisfaction with lurkers being shot, which is a town mindset because that pool is not very likely to include vengeful mafia. I liked his questioning of Red in 314, and I loved his "hello?" question in 369. At the very minimum, it makes it more likely that he's coming from a mindset of actually trying to produce things as opposed to being happy just sort of floating along.

RedCoyote: 255 does make it seem like RedCoyote wasn't aware who the gunbearer was, which is an okay towntell when RC-scum almost certainly would have been one of the people making that decision and RC-scum is not the type of player that fakes townslips to the best of my knowledge. His tone this game is very, very good if scum. The brazenness, as he calls it, does make sense from a position of RC-town Nacho-gunbearer while it doesn't make as much sense while scum, and I find his more aggressive and snarky town is usually a sign of RC-town (RC-scum focuses more on making reads look good and getting along). In particular, I like the end of 375[/url] (it's boring here, no drama), and I like the exchange with the TTH/Antihero slots in general. I won't shoot RC today.

Flubbernugget: I liked the pressure directed at vonflare in [post]187; I thought that was a great point and I thought vonflare's reaction to it was pretty terrible. 350 is a good exchange with Heartless. The trajectory of his Heartless suspicion is pretty good as well; he brings up reasons why he dislikes their push on him, he talks himself out of it in 355, then he reforms the scumread after further interactions with what looks like a pretty bad push. I wish there was a *bit* more here, but there's nothing I see and dislike.

Enomis: Seems townish enough for the mafia wincondition discussion in thread. If he were scum, I think he'd be more likely to keep that talk to PMs and his private topic. The general way he's approaching the game seems town, but there's not really any sort of content to give me a better read than that.

julienvonwolfe: 170 is interesting because it holds speculation on why I was chosen as gunbearer: I don't really think that I was picked at random, I think someone familiar with me chose me as gunbearer, and this reaction is a slight towntell because it doesn't look like julien was involved in that discussion or even aware of it.

Attack on wanderer in 237 looks decent because it's bucking popular opinion without an overwhelming amount of support.

Exchange in 439 with wanderer is appropriately aggressive. Saying that RedCoyote is possibly trust telling is a very strong not-partner tell.

Millar13: I don't have much of a read on this slot. Confidence displayed in 118 and 370 is worth a minor townread, but nothing more than that.

Jeanne11: Jeanne went from "shoot me! shoot me!" early game to hard lurking after winconditions were discussed. Since it's very possible jeanne initially thought her purpose was to draw a shot until winconditions were discussed and she learned that it was actually incredibly important she doesn't get shot, this could very easily be vengeful behavior, but it could also just be a lurking townie who lost interest at a pretty inconvenient time. No real read either way, but leaning scum.

VictorDeAngelo: Complete disconnect makes him seem like a decent Goon choice, but unfamiliar with his meta so can't actually make a definite call there. Also, normally not a "look, he scumslipped!" type of guy, but 455 is most definitely a scum slip.

Vonflare: I liked his early energy. I liked the frustration expressed in 222.
I didn't like that he put out that readslist early game. There's a very distinct difference in how town and scum approach readslists and that's generally that town players form readslists because they're trying to have a comprehensive place to put their reads while scum are making a readlist just to show content and look town and, considering vonflare didn't really have any reads he was confident about, it definitely seemed like the latter. I also didn't like how he immediately went from scumreading flubber and nullreading Nonsense in his readslist to not scumreading flubber; I can't see why he as town would back down from that read so quickly without any sort of explanation at all. The "template" excuse also falls sort of flat since a template of "oh let me copy paste names from the front page" really isn't difficult at all. I also don't like the excuse for being late on the "shoot me" discussion being that he was ninja'd for 20 minutes straight, although this point isn't a particularly strong one for me. I have trouble seeing him misremembering what exactly happened and coming up with the ninja'd excuse. I also don't like how harshly he's fallen off.

Perpetual Nonsense: I'm not particularly happy with this slot. The Bert head of the hydra is usually a lovely refreshing pool of paranoia, aggression, and constant theories for who is scum/who is town. The only thing he has provided to the game thus far is a push on RedCoyote for not being a presence in a game when he should have been one is a very large and very depressing red flag. I don't like that he still hasn't interacted with me except to say that he doesn't have anything to say to me. I might be confirmed town, but I can still be engaged on my reads, what I think of certain players, etc. There are small pings in his play here and there which feel town which holds me back from shooting him at the moment and place some small hope in my heart that he maybe could not be dirty dirty scum, but I need more.

Lucky2u: The reason this slot is such a strong scumread for me is because it's so far removed from typical lucky play. It's the being present but having absolutely no motive to catchup or not being apologetic at all for being scum that sort of clinches it for me. I'd like to shoot here because the possibility of hitting scum here seems very very high and I'm not very particular whether I hit a vengeful or a goon: yes, he's probably just a goon, but it's possible that he's vengeful as well and it seems very worth it to take those types of shots as opposed to wandering down the dangerous road of shooting active players just because we think they could be more likely to be vengeful.

[Nachomamma8]

oh god i meant to hit preview those links are going to be so fucked up D:

[Nachomamma8]

(Town ---> Scum)
CB: CB's posts this game have rang very genuine to me. Theory in 158 seems like it's coming from town since that's very certainly not what happened in the mafia thread. Talking about the vonflare trap in 238 additionally seemed like a bit of a paranoid but overall a very genuine concern which I also liked a lot. The paranoia directed towards pablito in 287 for the "you seem like you know I'm town" is excellent excellent excellent, and the theory for the twitter post originally posited in 238 being followed up on in 337 looks absolutely fantastic because it shows that he's still thinking about and revisiting old lines of thought. This is a very town mindset.

pablito: I love the way pablito has formed the referendum and shortlist plans and the way he pushes for their implementation because it feels like a push from a townie who attempting to create the healthiest gamestate possible in order to push scum out. I like the aggression and lack of fear he has in pushing suspects. His immediate push in 198 on wanderer is a reflection of that (she hadn't garnered much suspicion yet + was agreeing with him so was likely to be an ally down the road) is a good example of that, and the way that he talks about his scumread on Maxwell in 438 additionally feels very genuine, and the push itself is good because of how strong a push it is against someone who has absolutely no pressure against him.

Wanderer: The "I'm trying to figure out to post without dropping towntells" statement in 259 is one that I've been thinking about a lot lately and I very strongly feel there's no way in hell it comes from scum. The frustration with the suspicion surrounding her in 441 is additionally a really good post if scum, and the last post of 383 is good aggression that seems very unlikely to come from scum who was just coming under a lot of pressure towards someone that just backed off. I will probably explain this read further in player-specific rebuttals since there's a lot of suspicion on the slot but I can't really see a scenario where I shoot her as long as I hold the gun.

Heartless: TTH (the posting head with proper capitalization) and Antihero (the posting head with bad grammar) both seem individually town. A small point in favor of them being town would be that I think they'd be unlikely to give me the gun if they thought that I did have a genuine scumread on them early game (which they did seem to believe, regardless of alignment). I like TTH's approach to me (in a "I think this is town" kind of way, not a "this isn't frustrating kind of way") in 290. I think that as scum she would be more focused on addressing my concerns then aggravating me, but as town, it's very easy to believe that someone isn't listening to you on a scumread when your scumread is sheeping them. The frustration TTH has in general (344, 389, 400) also seems to be coming from town.

Antihero's early pushes are okay. His "all of TTH's posts are so beautiful" seems like an angle he's unlikely to take as scum, and his attempt at aggravating me also seems decently town. I thought I had more of an individual townread on him, but he hasn't actually done all that much that's interesting this game (although the disagreement with TTH on the wanderer read felt like a genuine push).

deep-city-lights: I liked her reaction to my week long plan ("fuck that, just shoot me"). It seemed like a fairly townie response coming from a place where she didn't want to be dragged through a game that was unnecessarily long and felt genuine to a point where I feel she would have trouble faking it if she were scum. I liked her distinction between Heartless and Jeanne in 150 because it was good reasoning, and I liked that she pushed it despite having a "shoot me" moment of her own earlier (I feel scum are less likely to do things like that because it so obviously points back to them, while town are likely to provide beliefs regardless of how it makes them look). I like her reaction to RedCoyote's post in 409.

Maxwell: I like Maxwell's excitement early game. 263 (I think that vengeful mafia are less likely to make risky posts, but me saying that might change that) reads as a pretty genuine line of thought. I also actually really like the scumread on julien: julien was a player I've been thinking about while typing up this readslist that I'm going to revisit after it's done, and I do think that there's scum in the anti-wanderer push and I think julien might be a strong push for it. His tone in the beginning of 329 and the end 398 is good, and the frustration expressed in 456 about me shooting to stay alive (which is not what I'm doing, by the way) is also good.

West9: The push on vonflare is very genuine, I like it a lot. In particular, 188 is good aggression, 194 is a good catch, 208 mirrors my own thoughts on the vonflare slot. I also liked his reaction to me providing my shortlist the most. He expressed dissatisfaction with lurkers being shot, which is a town mindset because that pool is not very likely to include vengeful mafia. I liked his questioning of Red in 314, and I loved his "hello?" question in 369. At the very minimum, it makes it more likely that he's coming from a mindset of actually trying to produce things as opposed to being happy just sort of floating along.

RedCoyote: 255 does make it seem like RedCoyote wasn't aware who the gunbearer was, which is an okay towntell when RC-scum almost certainly would have been one of the people making that decision and RC-scum is not the type of player that fakes townslips to the best of my knowledge. His tone this game is very, very good if scum. The brazenness, as he calls it, does make sense from a position of RC-town Nacho-gunbearer while it doesn't make as much sense while scum, and I find his more aggressive and snarky town is usually a sign of RC-town (RC-scum focuses more on making reads look good and getting along). In particular, I like the end of 375 (it's boring here, no drama), and I like the exchange with the TTH/Antihero slots in general. I won't shoot RC today.

Flubbernugget: I liked the pressure directed at vonflare in 187; I thought that was a great point and I thought vonflare's reaction to it was pretty terrible. 350 is a good exchange with Heartless. The trajectory of his Heartless suspicion is pretty good as well; he brings up reasons why he dislikes their push on him, he talks himself out of it in 355, then he reforms the scumread after further interactions with what looks like a pretty bad push. I wish there was a *bit* more here, but there's nothing I see and dislike.

Enomis: Seems townish enough for the mafia wincondition discussion in thread. If he were scum, I think he'd be more likely to keep that talk to PMs and his private topic. The general way he's approaching the game seems town, but there's not really any sort of content to give me a better read than that.

julienvonwolfe: 170 is interesting because it holds speculation on why I was chosen as gunbearer: I don't really think that I was picked at random, I think someone familiar with me chose me as gunbearer, and this reaction is a slight towntell because it doesn't look like julien was involved in that discussion or even aware of it.

Attack on wanderer in 237 looks decent because it's bucking popular opinion without an overwhelming amount of support.

Exchange in 439 with wanderer is appropriately aggressive. Saying that RedCoyote is possibly trust telling is a very strong not-partner tell.

Millar13: I don't have much of a read on this slot. Confidence displayed in 118 and 370 is worth a minor townread, but nothing more than that.

Jeanne11: Jeanne went from "shoot me! shoot me!" early game to hard lurking after winconditions were discussed. Since it's very possible jeanne initially thought her purpose was to draw a shot until winconditions were discussed and she learned that it was actually incredibly important she doesn't get shot, this could very easily be vengeful behavior, but it could also just be a lurking townie who lost interest at a pretty inconvenient time. No real read either way, but leaning scum.

VictorDeAngelo: Complete disconnect makes him seem like a decent Goon choice, but unfamiliar with his meta so can't actually make a definite call there. Also, normally not a "look, he scumslipped!" type of guy, but 455 is most definitely a scum slip.

Vonflare: I liked his early energy. I liked the frustration expressed in 222.
I didn't like that he put out that readslist early game. There's a very distinct difference in how town and scum approach readslists and that's generally that town players form readslists because they're trying to have a comprehensive place to put their reads while scum are making a readlist just to show content and look town and, considering vonflare didn't really have any reads he was confident about, it definitely seemed like the latter. I also didn't like how he immediately went from scumreading flubber and nullreading Nonsense in his readslist to not scumreading flubber; I can't see why he as town would back down from that read so quickly without any sort of explanation at all. The "template" excuse also falls sort of flat since a template of "oh let me copy paste names from the front page" really isn't difficult at all. I also don't like the excuse for being late on the "shoot me" discussion being that he was ninja'd for 20 minutes straight, although this point isn't a particularly strong one for me. I have trouble seeing him misremembering what exactly happened and coming up with the ninja'd excuse. I also don't like how harshly he's fallen off.

Perpetual Nonsense: I'm not particularly happy with this slot. The Bert head of the hydra is usually a lovely refreshing pool of paranoia, aggression, and constant theories for who is scum/who is town. The only thing he has provided to the game thus far is a push on RedCoyote for not being a presence in a game when he should have been one is a very large and very depressing red flag. I don't like that he still hasn't interacted with me except to say that he doesn't have anything to say to me. I might be confirmed town, but I can still be engaged on my reads, what I think of certain players, etc. There are small pings in his play here and there which feel town which holds me back from shooting him at the moment and place some small hope in my heart that he maybe could not be dirty dirty scum, but I need more.

Lucky2u: The reason this slot is such a strong scumread for me is because it's so far removed from typical lucky play. It's the being present but having absolutely no motive to catchup or not being apologetic at all for being scum that sort of clinches it for me. I'd like to shoot here because the possibility of hitting scum here seems very very high and I'm not very particular whether I hit a vengeful or a goon: yes, he's probably just a goon, but it's possible that he's vengeful as well and it seems very worth it to take those types of shots as opposed to wandering down the dangerous road of shooting active players just because we think they could be more likely to be vengeful.

with fixed links

[Nachomamma8]

In the scumlist (bottom 7), I could very possibly see Perpetual Nonsense or millar being town the easiest since the reads there seem based mostly on incomplete information.
The more incomplete townreads are West9 and enomis.

These are the players I would like to see post more.

I'm also claiming intent for the Lucky shot sometime tomorrow. I'm going to mostly be busy this weekend so would rather probably wait the weekend out to give people time to post and react to that, but I also realize people are probably getting pretty impatient and need blood soon, and don't think it's a shot that will kill me so w/e. I'll make a post including where my personal experience is factoring into reads so that you know if I'd like you to give a read or a point more emphasis than you would normally. This readslist has most of my logic in where I'm standing on most of the playerlist, it feels mostly correct although not perfect so while I wouldn't follow it to a T, I would make sure that you really thought long and hard before shooting wanderer, CB, Heartless, or pablito, and that vonflare/Victor/julien/Jeanne all die at your earliest convenience.

[Nachomamma8]

I'd also like to implement pablito's referendum idea starting now. I'd like to do a mix of town and scum referendums. Because town reads are just as important as scumreads in a Nightless game such as this, I'd like people thinking about both as much as possible. The style of referendum I'm proposing right now are three total: the gunbearer's top scum choice, the gunbearer's top town choice, and the most controversial choice. I put julien's suspicion of wanderer in referendum form because he's the only person who I remember actually suspecting wanderer.

Target: Vonflare
Accuser: Nachomamma8
Rationale:
I didn't like that he put out that readslist early game. There's a very distinct difference in how town and scum approach readslists and that's generally that town players form readslists because they're trying to have a comprehensive place to put their reads while scum are making a readlist just to show content and look town and, considering vonflare didn't really have any reads he was confident about, it definitely seemed like the latter. I also didn't like how he immediately went from scumreading flubber and nullreading Nonsense in his readslist to not scumreading flubber; I can't see why he as town would back down from that read so quickly without any sort of explanation at all. The "template" excuse also falls sort of flat since a template of "oh let me copy paste names from the front page" really isn't difficult at all. I also don't like the excuse for being late on the "shoot me" discussion being that he was ninja'd for 20 minutes straight, although this point isn't a particularly strong one for me. I have trouble seeing him misremembering what exactly happened and coming up with the ninja'd excuse. I also don't like how harshly he's fallen off.
Evidence: 184 (Readslist), 190 ("Ninja'd"), 221 (Flubbernugget Contradiction).
YEA (0): people who voted yea here.
NAY (0): people who voted nay here.

Spoiler: Additional Referendums

None here yet.

Target: CB
Sponsor: Nachomamma8
Rationale: CB's posts this game have rang very genuine to me. Theory in 158 seems like it's coming from town since that's very certainly not what happened in the mafia thread. Talking about the vonflare trap in 238 additionally seemed like a bit of a paranoid but overall a very genuine concern which I also liked a lot. The paranoia directed towards pablito in 287 for the "you seem like you know I'm town" is excellent excellent excellent, and the theory for the twitter post originally posited in 238 being followed up on in 337 looks absolutely fantastic because it shows that he's still thinking about and revisiting old lines of thought. This is a very town mindset.
Evidence: 158 (Gunbearer Strategy), 238 (Trap/Initial Twitter Post Suspicion), 287 (Pablito Suspicion)
YEA (0): people who voted yea here.
NAY (0): people who voted nay here.

Spoiler: Additional Referendums

None here yet.

Target: Wanderer
Accuser: julienvonwolfe
Rationale: Here our friend Wanderer proposes normal mafia playing techniques (voting, lynching those with the most votes) as if they are incredibly useful scum hunting techniques. I'll admit that there's a reason that we use them in every other game, just about, as getting people to state their opinions is good for town, but I don't like the suggestion that we coerce (or constrain, perhaps) the gunbearer. From my perspective, the gunbearer is confirmed town, and any majority opinion of players will include scum joining and maybe even steering the wagon. I trust the gunbearer more than the collective will of the players, in other words.

But what really rubs me up the wrong way is the 'cosmetic' vote (because of course votes don't matter anyway, right, guys? ) and then the jumping on people like dcl and vonflare, both of whom seem to me to be more divisive than scummy.
Evidence: 177
YEA (0): people who voted yea here.
NAY (0): people who voted nay here.

Spoiler: Additional Referendums

None here yet.

Target: Wanderer
Sponsor: Nachomamma8
Rationale: The "I'm trying to figure out to post without dropping towntells" statement in 259 is one that I've been thinking about a lot lately and I very strongly feel there's no way in hell it comes from scum. The frustration with the suspicion surrounding her in 441 is additionally a really good post if scum, and the last post of 383 is good aggression that seems very unlikely to come from scum who was just coming under a lot of pressure towards someone that just backed off. I will probably explain this read further in player-specific rebuttals since there's a lot of suspicion on the slot but I can't really see a scenario where I shoot her as long as I hold the gun.
Evidence: 259 (Towntell post), 383 (Backlash against enomis), 441 (Shoot me and get it over with)
YEA (0): people who voted yea here.
NAY (0): people who voted nay here.

Spoiler: Additional Referendums

None here yet.

[Nachomamma8]

THINGS ALL PLAYERS SHOULD BE DOING:

• Comment on Lucky getting shot after the weekend. Do you agree with this shot?
  
• Vote on the referendums in 466. If you have an additional case/comment on your vote, please post using the format to make linking easier.
  
• If your name is: West, millar, Perpetual Nonsense, or enomis, please post more/make more of an effort to engage with the readslist in 462 so that I can get a more comprehensive read on you. If you are on the scumlist and my read on you is incorrect, please also make more of an effort to interact with me and talk about my reads.

[Nachomamma8]

Why try to hit goons then and not vengefuls?

Sorry, my mind was kind of muddled in the morning when I was writing that, so I didn't quite say what I wanted to say.
What I wanted to say is that I feel scum in general will have a very strong tendency to lurk because 1) if they are goons, it is very very difficult for them to have any significant effect on the gamestate, and 2) if they are vengefuls, it is VERY VERY important for them to play well and there's not a very good chance of them winning meaning they might lurk out the game thanks to nervousness or hopelessness. For this reason, I think we should be pretty aggressive in shooting lurkers. There is a worry they won't be good gunbearers, yes, but that's what things such as the referendum system (keeping main suspicion in a very easy and readable format) and universal townreads taking a large hand in influencing shots (once they're referendum voted in) is for. Do you agree with that?

If Lucky is the shot, I see no reason why Millar and Jeanne aren't just as likely candidates. I guess you can differentiate them by saying that Jeanne wanted to be shot, which I still don't understand, but between Millar and Lucky I see no difference.

Personal experience with the players, mostly. I've gotten used to this as millar's general style, but the lurking without being apologetic or making any attempt at catching up whatsoever is very unlike the lucky I'm used to. Jeanne I have no experience with, so I don't really have anything to compare this inactivity to and am mostly hoping for a replacement here.

Spoiler: @Heartless

Essentially, it consisted of little cutesy snipes at random lines in the first pages and contained little to no substantial analysis and no developed reads. The read on us based on Anti's reaction to Nacho is flimsy crap. It was obvious the quote was Anti because he referred to me in the third person and I have no idea where RedCoyote is getting his meta intel from if he says Antihero doesn't caps rage.

The intent behind the catchup was pretty clearly to get caught up, not to provide substantial analysis and not to provide in depth reads. As a result, I don't fault him for not having in depth reads and calling that a scumtell is a weak call to me. I don't think the parts where he makes mistakes (confuses you and Anti, has a bad view of Antihero's meta) are significant. I don't think he'd pay more attention or town and I don't think he's trying to egregiously misrepresent Antihero's meta in order to leverage a push on him as scum.

The closest he does come to an explained read is on julien, which is also superficial and mostly bullshit. The bulk of the read is apparently derived from julien's speculation on why Nacho got the gun at the beginning of the game (Post 170). Contrary to what RC is implying in his response, "This has got to be fake. C'mon, julien. You didn't think to look to the setup rules for this answer?" julien never intimated an unfamiliarity with the mechanic and was looking for reasons why scum would give nacho the gun. It goes directly to the question of who scum are and is thus a perfectly valid avenue to explore and we never see RC bother to prove why it's scummy. The later hydra hate is also a meaningless, useless platitude that doesn't actually help or add to the discussion. The bottom line is that for all the gooey quote-stripe-y-ness in the length of the post, it's very very light on actual contribution.

I think the fact that his scumreads are on you and julien are interesting. You are perhaps the scariest target for scum in the game. You're the loudest player (by far) after me, and you have been shown to react pretty strongly when people suspect/disagree with you which means that it's going to be pretty difficult to convince people to shoot you, but, if you do get the gun, you are going to focus in pretty heavily on people who suspect you. This means that his push as scum is taking a big risk, especially when a vast majority of players haven't endorsed a shot on you. His scumread on julien is also interesting since julien for me seems like a player who is actually decently likely to be scum but isn't being talked about much, meaning he is the least likely to be bussed by the rest of his team. I don't think RC would actually put julien suspicion on the table here if they wrre both scumpartners.

I don't see why you find RC's "this has got to be fake" comment scummy just because the logic behind it is wrong, that doesn't actually make any sense. No, he didn't put work in to identify why it was scummy exactly, but see my comment on the intention behind his catchup.

The hydra hate line is useless, yes. It's also pretty fucking null as far as null things go.

Maxwell's reads list a while back (Post 325) seems alright with a cursory glance, but the veneer quickly falls apart with any kind of inspection or thought and then it starts to seem really dressed up. The strongest scum read on julien is based on a trumped-up case based on a misinterpretation of cheap early setup speculation, which Max himself later admitted to (Post 345).

He made a mistake in a push.
He then later admitted his push was wrong.
How is this scummy?

He also takes issue with the wanderer read without actually stating what his problem with it is, which is off given that his wanderer read itself only consists of "I like their saying that they want to shoot an active rather than an inactive. I agree." and he lists her as one of the reads he needs to re-evaluate reportedly because of room for doubt.

He agrees with wanderer early in 185. He explains one of wanderer's posts that was getting prodded at a bit in 185. 399 and 456 have more complete explanations of wanderer reads, but it seems clear that he was townreading her early game because they were thinking on the same level/he thought people were making bad pushes on her, so I don't mind the townread at all. His followup with the slot after this post also shows he is re-evaluating the slot because of people's suspicion on him (my assumption), but I also don't understand why saying he needs to re-evaluate a read is something that's scummy.

The knee jerk reaction to pabilto's point in Post 345 is eyebrow-raising.

I wouldn't classify that as a knee jerk. Why do you and why is that knee jerk scummy?

In recent posting, giving RedCoyote a pat on the back for tenuous reasons and giving reasons why millar shouldn't be the shot even though he's not necessarily a town read leaves a really bad taste in my mouth (Post 372 and Post 377).

The RedCoyote thing could be a possible partner tell, yes. I don't find it unreasonable to get gut reads based on snippy, confident posting and picking up on a shared scumread that no one else really held before. I don't think his frustration with shooting lurkers is scummy, though. There is a legitimate concern behind the sentiment that's been expressed by quite a few people already, and I think it's a weird move to try to protect a buddy with "this guy is too incompetent to hold the gun".

As an aside @TTH specifically, is there anything that I could do to make you less frustrated with the game? I don't mean to frustrate you (which is the sense that I got from a couple of your earlier posts) and I am reading and thinking about what you're saying even if all the things I direct towards you are disagreements. I'm not exactly the type to follow people blindly unless I really have no other alternatives and they've earned my respect after years of kicking ass and being right where I am so blatantly wrong, but I also don't generally post things beyond "you're wrong" or "we're not doing that today" to people I'm not willing to listen to, so please don't think I'm just being stubborn and shutting you off because of whatever bias I might have possessed.

Spoiler: @Pablito

Yes, we can force people to do it. If they don't, they're on the shortlist for being shot. That being said, votes mean nothing, right?

I don't think this is a good idea. I support the idea because I think it will be healthier for the gamestate and will make townies both more likely to listen and more likely to speak. Using threats and wasting mislynches on people for not following group think is pro-scum in my opinion because a town is at its strongest when there are dissenting opinions that are also being taken account because dissenting opinions are what produce conversation and get people to talk more.

I got the sense you agreed to something stronger and that was from both you and wanderer. I just expected more from you. I didn't from wanderer.

I got the sense that both players were excited by your proposal, just not really confident in how to implement it. Why do you disagree with this perception and why do you think town!Maxwell would be more likely to take initiative and get the plan going than scum!Maxwell? Do you think his criticism that you're expecting too much from him just because he agreed with your idea is unfair? Why?

And I continue to feel like you intentionally are passing over a lot to focus on other things.

What specifically is Maxwell passing over?

Also, is that along the lines of what you were thinking? I glanced through Lights Out to get a sense of how the referendum worked, and I don't like the mindlessness of the plurality vote since it takes away from the strength of the gunbearer mechanic (giving each gunbearer freedom over who they shoot means that each townie's perspective on the gamestate gets an equal chance at rooting out scum, which means scum have to fool not only the universal townreads, but the scummier looking townreads as well) so majority doesn't lead to a shot, but I do think the sense of keeping people accountable and leaving a paper trail is a very big strength of the system so that was what I tried to implement when making that post.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you realize how frustrating your lurking would be if you were town?

[Nachomamma8]

What do you mean?

[Nachomamma8]

You're only frustrated because you spent all this time and shot wrong.

I'd only be frustrated because I'm putting in all the work I could possibly manage to help the town win, and you refused to do anything because ??? and you take down our chances of winning so you can push for random shots because you think shooting randomly is fun why?

[Nachomamma8]

I thought you were going to stop doing things like this after you pissed ETL off in Spring Promenade.

[Nachomamma8]

Who would you shoot right now if you got the gun?

[Nachomamma8]

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

Would you approve shot on wanderer today?

Would you be comfortable with wanderer living until endgame?

Would you be comfortable with CB living until endgame?

[Nachomamma8]

can you flip the coin again for the wanderer questions?

[Nachomamma8]

Could you dice roll it then?

[Nachomamma8]

no need, we were talking on skype the other day and arc already told me that you were goon

[Nachomamma8]

no

[Nachomamma8]

The only thing that changes about my reads list is probably that lucky is much townier now that I started interacting with him (posting when threatened to be shot could possibly be a scumtell yes, but starting to seem excited and trolling more when threatened to be shot comes from a townier place) so I won't be shooting him.

The shots I feel comfortable taking are:
Julienvonwolfe, Vonflare, Jeanne, Victor

The shots I would take if all of those were dead and wouldn't feel bad about shooting:
Millar, Flubbernugget

People who I wouldn't shoot ever and strongly urge not to shoot ever:
CB, Pablito, Heartless, Wanderer, RedCoyote
(aka if 4 of these players never hold a gun you will win the game)

[Nachomamma8]

Shoot: VictorDeAngelo

People didn't formally comment on Victor, but plenty of people ended up commenting on Victor so I feel comfortable with this shot giving enough information if I die as a result of it.

[Nachomamma8]

I like the addition of vengeful goons to this set
-up but think the win-cons still need work

Any ideas?

The wincon needs to be that mafia win when their number is equal to the number of townies or nothing can prevent that from happening.

Current wincon is ridiculous, scum should have won this game three times over.