New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!

[Boonskiies]

If I can guarantee scum on a wagon on Day 1, why shouldn't I look into it?

[Boonskiies]

Probably all scum teams are on it, really.

[Aneninen]

@Aenen, You say I keep bringing up old arguments? I'm repeated finding myself having to refute the one argument against me, which I think is stupid in itself and all of it's variants.

And I'm scumreading you because of your

reactions

.

I will catch up later tonight tomorrow. I have not been feeling well.

Get well soon!

@Aneninen - what do you think that means? Don't need to answer that, but just ponder on about it.

I'll do so.

For usefulness's sake, I'm going to keep the names of people who are on the wagon right now.

RadiantCowbells, House, Silverwolf, Bookitty, Cheetory6, Taly, Varsoon

Okay, let's assume for a split second that you're right. Can't you imagine players misreading Dragon? Can't you see scummy things in his posts?

His goddamn name is Adenine.

Good.
In that case, you can do nothing against me. I'm in the DNA of all living things. Period.

[Boonskiies]

I have stated I understand why people would vote Dragon, but the likelihood of scum not taking advantage of that at this time in the game in a seemingly inconsequential wagon push is close to none. I don't see a possible way of at least one scum not being on dragon's wagon. That being said, I'd even go as far as a scum team member being on an ozgin wagon as well as the dragon wagon to try and counteract their scum partner and to not be a part of the dragon wagon. I think I'm going to keep mark on the Ozgin wagon right now, also. We'll come back to this like Day 3, of course.

[Kitz]

@Kitz:
Well, let's say you roll Serial Killer or a scum-team (which I assume are told in their role PM that their wincon is to destroy the other scum factions).
In confirming that you've read your role PM, you're saying that you acknowledge that information.
So, by you not knowing this is multiball, you may be very well townslipping, since the town role PM win-con only says 'when all threats to town have been eliminated.'
I don't put a ton of stock in that, but does that make sense?

That makes sense, however, what about the "their wincon is to destroy the other scum factions"? I'd imagine that SK should just say "Be the last alive and eleminate everyone else", and Mafia being "eleminate everyone else and have at least 1 mafia alive", so this assumption is basically hypothetical. It could even just be "Eleminate the threat of X faction".

Depending on the flavor, the slip might just as well be universal.

TSO for now being much of a presence AND slapping a naked vote onto the Ozgin Wagon (Needs pressure, really)

Yeah, I'd like to add some points on that.

He votes naked in #476 but his reason is back in #311 agreeing with someone, a whole day in lag before the actual note which is plain naked.
I see it as a forced vote, and why didn't he just vote back in #311?

[Boonskiies]

Dragon Wagon

RadiantCowbells, House, Silverwolf, Bookitty, Cheetory6, Taly, Varsoon

Ozgin Wagon

Titus, Kitz, T S O, Egg, Aneninen

[Titus]

Add Boonskiies to the would lynch pile.

[Aneninen]

Huh. People posted some pretty thick stuff between last night and now! I hope I can address everyone.

@Anenien:
Here's some info on my scumpool and why they're there:
Dragonspawn for reasons I've been bringing up
TSO for now being much of a presence AND slapping a naked vote onto the Ozgin Wagon (Needs pressure, really)
Titus for clutching very hard to the Ozgin-Citizen thing, but I also feel like Titus was really quick to townread me and I may've turned a blind eye to her because of that. There's a few very early Titus posts that ping to me as well.
Here's why I trust these people (for now at least):
Cheetory has had three good chances to absolutely turn the game around on me and easily pull a lynch on me. Instead, he's stuck to his guns, consistently pressured players that he felt needed the pressure, and been generally helpful to keeping the gamestate from being bogged down. He's asked good questions and made tangible results and progress from those questions.
As for Ozgin, he seems to approach the game with an abrasive, kind of I-am-right mindset and has it dead-set in his head that buddying/sheeping is scummy, but those things seem to genuinely come from his playstyle rather than him trying to aggressively scumpaint me and others as I was thinking before. The fact that he was willing to enter a dialogue with me rather than just deafly tunnel away also indicates that he's trying to come to common ground and understand the game rather than push advantages. Furthermore, if he was on a team with other players, I suspect that I would have been thrown a lot more shade, and yet, most people seem to be townreading me for one reason or another. Even furthermore, his Citizen claim checks out, and I genuinely believe that he actually may be a Citizen and that Titus is likely scum based on the fact that Titus wasn't fully aware of the disparity in Role PMs. The short of this is that we'll know the truth very soon but we can put good stock in Ozgin being town.

DragonSpawn: may be ok.
TSO: pigeon poop.
Titus is being Titus, I think.
Cheetory: you may be right here, I know very little about him right now.
Ozgin: yet again, his reactions. I don't like them.

I agree that Kitz needs more pressure.

Good idea.

@Kitz:
Well, let's say you roll Serial Killer or a scum-team (which I assume are told in their role PM that their wincon is to destroy the other scum factions).
In confirming that you've read your role PM, you're saying that you acknowledge that information.
So, by you not knowing this is multiball, you may be very well townslipping, since the town role PM win-con only says 'when all threats to town have been eliminated.'
I don't put a ton of stock in that, but does that make sense?

That makes sense, however, what about the "their wincon is to destroy the other scum factions"? I'd imagine that SK should just say "Be the last alive and eleminate everyone else", and Mafia being "eleminate everyone else and have at least 1 mafia alive", so this assumption is basically hypothetical. It could even just be "Eleminate the threat of X faction".

And you wanted to say...? (What exactly?)

TSO for now being much of a presence AND slapping a naked vote onto the Ozgin Wagon (Needs pressure, really)

Yeah, I'd like to add some points on that.
He votes naked in #476 but his reason is back in #311 agreeing with someone, a whole day in lag before the actual note which is plain naked.
I see it as a forced vote, and why didn't he just vote back in #311?

Why on Gods' Green Earth need we scumread TSO? He's done hardly anything.
This whole TSO-thing seems to be so fabricated as an average Kim Kardashian wherever in the Space/Time Continuum.

Dragon Wagon

RadiantCowbells, House, Silverwolf, Bookitty, Cheetory6, Taly, Varsoon

Ozgin Wagon

Titus, Kitz, T S O, Egg, Aneninen

And if we read the initials together, we get RHSBCTV and TKTEA.

[Kitz]

Why on Gods' Green Earth need we scumread TSO? He's done hardly anything.

I guess you didn't actually read it.

[Taly]

Taly, you do realize that with multiple scum teams, Titus possibly being scum and the speed of the wagon are bad reasons to unvote, right? I can understand the rest, but you seem like you are re-asserting my point about you. And yeah concise would be good.

Silverwolf, can you show me what you mean as far as Bookitty? Regarding Taly though, my recent posts should show that you are wrong and I actually do have an issue with that. Probably more than with you in fact.

I never outright said Titus was scum, I just never followed their logic, nor really trusted it. I did however say, that I didn't see her hard-push to be coming from such a towny perspective because I've seen scum do it.

Why is it a negative that I'm re-asserting your point about me?

One

, I'm not, and if I was - then that'd tell you I'm not trying to hide shit

(but that's not to say I'm not being open to you now)

.

Two

, I'm being honest about my unvote for Ozgin, so if you actually understood at least a portion of why I unvoted then I'm not sure why what I did is bothersome to you.

Why don't you go back to the Newbie Queue?

Can we please not do this?

Anen, I'm a bit curious about your reads, you've been posting replies to people but I haven't seen much decision on your readings on others yet

Not much, because by the time I arrived there had been 20 pages or so.
But, some of my other reads were in 498.

Recapitulating them along with some new thoughts, these players seem to be town:
Varsoon (his scumplay is very different, plus he's efforts seem to be genuine, although I don't get his change on Ozgin)
Bookitty (posting style plus meta)
TSO (if he's scum he's more into the game and I don't know why certain players are scumreading him)
Titus (the sheer effort she's making plus she's scumhunting actively)
Taly (again, posting style, although I don't like the Ozgin-read)
RadiantCowbells (her gameplay would make no sense if she were scum)
(Yes, many of these reads are still based on meta, I must admit.)
.

What don't you like about the Ozgin read? If you agree that Dragon is scummy, then why is it a problem?

Also, thanks for your other referencein reads.

I meant extra. I don't think you are scum, though. I actually do understand why Dragon is being voted. I also do understand that there is no way scum isn't on the wagon as of right now.

For usefulness's sake, I'm going to keep the names of people who are on the wagon right now.

RadiantCowbells, House, Silverwolf, Bookitty, Cheetory6, Taly, Varsoon

You do know there are 7 scum, right?

I'm pretty sure there is scum on the Ozgin wagon as well, myself - as I've stated.

There might be scum on the Dragon wagon, but I'm neutral or townreading everyone on the Dragon wagon so far. So yeah...

@Taly, Bookitty and Varsoon are who I don't want to lynch. Leaning town on you as well because when we're both town you never understand what I say. Ozgin case has been made and done. Ozgin slipped. Ozgin's scumreads are reflexive and his scumreads are just attempts at those who discredit him. Varsoon has gotten a little bit weaker about his WTF turnabout that I don't get either. Given the synergy we had at the start, I'm still townreading him for now but it'll really be solidified when we have our interaction we both want. It'll be Monday at best as I've got work stuff in a bit (yeah I know Sunday, life of owning a business). Not a big fan of Egg randomly throwing in "Titus could be scum". Hell, anyone but me, could be scum, at this point. I like Anen's replies to me. I doubt he's buddying as he seems to approach Ozgin from a different direction. Pretty content calling Anenien town here as well. So short version, I don't really feel like lynching Bookitty, Varsoon and Aninenen today.

sorry Titus, in games and situations like Mafia, I don't understand moonlogic unless it comes intuitively, directly from within myself. In that case, I wouldn't even understand my own intuition.

Even then, I don't expect people to follow them like law. :/

Eh... Honestly, after reading some of Anens points and looking back at Ozgin, a lynch on him won't bother me that much, he's still reactive to the wagons.

However, I think Dragon is a ping bit better still. ._.

@Taly:
My theory has a bit to do with Boo's theory in that I'm trying to think of how House has structured the game and how the balance of the two bigger factions is handled. It also has a lot to do with my role and the role that I'm fairly sure that Dragons has.
To say more on it before we get a flip from Dragons would out a lot of info--not just about my role, but also potentially about Dragon's and maybe even some other players'. I don't want to do that if I can avoid it.
I don't put much stock into Meta. I know other people do, but I really don't mind too much for it. I don't have a good impression of Dragon's scumplay from previous games, though. I'd have to look it up.
Basically, if Dragons is our lynch, I hope that I can talk to him about his role a bit before he's gone for good. He's been really awkward and hesitant about it so far, which is what pings a lot to me too.

What if we could just ask Dragon when he's at L-1 or something? ._. I don't want to lose a possibly helpful PR on the off-chance Dragon is town.

Ehh. Sorry for the bit of WIFOM, but I really don't develop confident-scumreads in D1. Unless I viciously 1v1 someone, and even then it may not be accurate. X_X

In any case, if Dragon is still awkward in that possible situation - then he may very well be scum.

Probably all scum teams are on it, really.

So... Are you saying that all 7 scum is on the Dragon wagon? What the fuck?

[T S O]

oh fuck I'm playing this

[Wake1]

Prodding Aeronaut.

[T S O]

Something relevant to add, I guess, is that in a game like this wagon speed really means nothing. Nor will day one wagon analysis.

I'm going to have severe trouble keeping up with this game, given that my final final final exams are in <2 weeks, and that's basically D-Day for me.

[T S O]

I still didn't like the Ozgin claim and I don't really get why that wagon has died, though I have to admire the effort Ozgin put in for doing so.

Varsoon's read change there is also odd.

[House]

Hey T S O, are you scum?

[Boonskiies]

@Taly - No, there are two scum teams, correct? Yeah, there is at least one member of each team on either dragon or ozgin's wagons. Regardless of if Ozgin is scum or not. Dragon's not scum, and I'm starting to really question the intelligence of some people out here.

[House]

I'm in a neighborhood called Central Windgale with dragonspawn (and some others), and I want him dead so I can participate in it, please.

kthx.

[Boonskiies]

I'm in a neighborhood called Central Windgale with dragonspawn (and some others), and I want him dead so I can participate in it, please.

kthx.

Oh, this changes things. This makes sense now. House, vote someone else in the neighborhood if you have to do someone from the neighborhood. Dragon is not scum.

[Taly]

Boons, can you at least explain why you think Dragon is not scum?

[Varsoon]

I'm in a neighborhood called Central Windgale with dragonspawn (and some others), and I want him dead so I can participate in it, please.

kthx.

This is what I figured.
I'm also in a neighborhood and had assumed there were likely other hoods.
I also have the theory that if there's multiple hoods then there's likely at least one rep from a scumteam in each.
I was unsure if Dragon was being awkward about having a neighborhood or a masonry, but it seemed more like a neighborhood (especially since he used the word neighborhood earlier).

[Varsoon]

Boons, can you at least explain why you think Dragon is not scum?

I was honestly waiting for the masons claim but I sincerely doubt that someone is both masons and in a neighborhood.

[Varsoon]

My neighborhood has four people in it, including me. It's up to them if they want to out themselves, I guess.

[Taly]

Boons, can you at least explain why you think Dragon is not scum?

I was honestly waiting for the masons claim but I sincerely doubt that someone is both masons and in a neighborhood.

Well, I'm actually still null-townreading House.

So, if he wants Dragon killed, I think he has a better underlying reason for it. Also, if there is scum in each neighborhood, then I'm more inclined to think Dragon is scum based on how he reacted to your role question.

[Varsoon]

I don't think there would be two neighborhoods of at least 4 players each that are both entirely composed of town.
But that's my take on it.

[House]

I'm in a neighborhood called Central Windgale with dragonspawn (and some others), and I want him dead so I can participate in it, please.

kthx.

Oh, this changes things. This makes sense now. House, vote someone else in the neighborhood if you have to do someone from the neighborhood. Dragon is not scum.

Dude, you don't know him. I do.

He's scum.