Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Bulbazak]

I think token spec would have gotten the same conclusion.

Bane: Cheetory6

Can I do this now, or is the thread going to close again?

[Bulbazak]

I'd prefer to use bane as a scum vote. Otherwise, I really don't see the point in using it. As for the protects, I'm not sure. I can see the pros and cons for both. I'm conferring with my team about what they think the best course of action is, although I'd really appreciate discussion on the subject that doesn't devolve into PR fishing.

[Bulbazak]

bulba

, why are you bane-ing cheetory?

I haven't liked some of his reactions.

[Bulbazak]

Tammy, I think you're forgetting that they also had to use said tokens on games. Unless you think their team just let fate decide.

[Bulbazak]

@Ffery: Yeah, that was kinda obvious.

[Bulbazak]

@Shadoweh: Why Mastin?

[Bulbazak]

Bulbasaur: I think my reasoning is obvious. Why do you care?

Please humor me. I think you're going off of the assumption that Mastin's team would spend tokens on her being scum, because Mastin is good as scum. However, you are ignoring that Mastin is the master of her own meta, and I wouldn't put it past her to WIFOM everyone by not spending tokens on herself. I also know that she's had a hard time posting in games as of late, so going for scum might not be the best move. In short, Mastin could be anything due to recent events and the fact that she's Mastin. Therefore, I think we need to read her on her own play and not on a meta game. In that sense, baning her at this time is a bad move, because if town, we want Mastin's sign to be a secret.

And while I think UT is the best bane choice, Ceph would be voting for Cheetory if he was in the game

Ceph has it right. You should listen to him.

Kinda surprised Mastina is not here yet.

Mastin has not been posting in games for awhile. I'm not surprised at all.

@Bulba

, can I get your thoughts on CDB/Titus/Tammy?

No clue on CDB. I need more info. Leaning town on Titus, although I'd like to firm this up some more. I should have a better idea by the end of Major d1, maybe minor d2 if I'm still alive. Tammy is solid town.

P-Edit: Zar feels a little scummy out of this interaction with you, but I don't really feel like we need to rush a bane through based on an angry 1v1. I personally would rather hear your thoughts on Zar after tonight's over and hear if you still feel the same way.

@Zar

, is there any reason you're kind of avoiding an engage with Tammy on this? I feel like you're choosing to focus on other things and that just kind of feels weird to me.

but I don't really feel like we need to rush a bane through based on an angry 1v1. I personally would rather hear your thoughts on Zar after tonight's over and hear if you still feel the same way.

So what do YOU think of Zar/Tammy interaction? TvT? TvS? Scum theatre?

This is town.

I'm getting scummy vibes from tammy. It might be jsut her excitement, but something is weird.

People should follow marquis and bane gg.

Are you scum Vezok?

I want to scum read bulba but I always do.

You're never going to let Donner Party go, are you? What exactly is it about my play this game that is making you want to scum read me?

Eddie is yelling at me to help Tammy with Zar, so...

Bane Zar

Choose 1

Btw, I'm going to give Mastin a tentative town read for reasons.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba, Mastina townread...huh?

Yep. What of it?

You're never going to let Donner Party go, are you? What exactly is it about my play this game that is making you want to scum read me?

It has nothing to do with Donner Party.

your biggest concern about my getting treestumped apparently was irritation that you might find the thread locked again with your next post. That doesn't feel like town reacting to losing a town player before the game has hardly started.

To be fair, your alignment being outed didn't affect my reads much at all. I had figured your team would spend tokens on you getting town, because you absolutely hate playing scum. In that regard nothing changed. I had actually written a rather nice post when Hito locked the thread, and it really annoyed me. I didn't feel like typing it back up when the thread re-opened, as at that point, I just stopped giving a crap. Your treestump is not going to change anything for me in the large scheme of things, so I'm not seeing why you'd think I'd be that bothered. Either way I was going to treat you as town and try to work with you.

P-edit: That smiley means I don't like what you've written there. It looks like you don't know what way to come down on your buddy. And I happen to agree with Eddie and Tammy. Otherwise, I wouldn't be baning. Eddie's just been yelling at me to nail Zar's feet to the floor, and I decided to do so.

[Bulbazak]

I could have done that. Decided not to. Most of the stuff I've said again anyway. The only thing I haven't said again is that our team's strategy is support, so I'm going to be focused on working with my town reads.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba, how can you townread someone who has not posted?

How can you scum read someone who has not posted?

[Bulbazak]

Would it help if I told you that she's not posting in any other games?

[Bulbazak]

And if I find out she is, I'll even help you nail her feet to the floor.

[Bulbazak]

Welp, my Titus read just firmed up.

[Bulbazak]

Welp, my Titus read just firmed up.

I don't disagree with your titus read but I do want to know the basis of it. How does that post makes her town?

It wasn't that post specifically. It was the whole exchange. Titus was demonstrating paranoia in Mastin, and her wanting to work that read out with me was genuine and not faked. That's a town thought process.

[Bulbazak]

Tammy is pretty obvious as town, and she's towned it up hard so far. As for Zar, it's not Tammy's case but the way he's reacted that's convinced me. He feels very stiff and unnatural. It's similar to what Tammy's seeing, but coming from another angle not related to meta.

[Bulbazak]

Why should I not be giving bane to UT?

I'm really not seeing the point in giving it to UT. I agree that those early posts seemed off, but not in the way that the body of Cheetory or Zar does. For me, UT is a "wait and see" read, while the others are full fledge scum reads, hence why I want to bane them. Maybe you're seeing something that I'm not, but I don't see why UT deserves the bane more than Cheetory, Zar, or any other scum read.

Why should I think that Cheetory being less analytical and more inclined to take potshots in early game here than in later-game elsewhere means he's scum?

I never said that's why he's scum. I'm looking at the way he's reacting to different players, and it doesn't feel like town to me.

Why are you acting all superior and telling me to bane Cheetory when you're giving bane to Zar?

I typed that before I decided to switch to Zar. I still think Cheetory is a better bane target than UT, though. However, if you had to choose between Cheetory or Zar, I'd go with Zar. My point is that Cephrir seems to be thinking along the same lines as myself, which is a good thing, and given your indecisiveness, it might be a good idea to listen to him.

Oh and regarding Cheetory's stance on Zar, I think it's pretty reasonable and quite similar to my own stance so it seems weird that Bulb would scumread him for it.

Look, I get that you're lost right now, but can you please not let yourself form judgements around who appeals to your emotional side. You're doing an awful lot of that right now, and I'm afraid you're not looking at things objectively. Cheetory was not being indecisive about Zar. He was trying to dismantle Tammy's push on Zar while telling Zar to stop scumming it up.

P-edit: In other news, Vezok's scum.

[Bulbazak]

Just please look at how you responded to Marquis and Zar when they both buddied up to you.

[Bulbazak]

Bulb, if you're town then I appreciate the advice, but I currently think you're scum for a number of reasons, not limited to you telling me what to do.

Your not exactly disproving my point here. You know that, right?

I do form reads emotionally sometimes and I'm aware of this, but I feel it's unfair to dismiss my reads because of this, especially when they are not entirely emotional.

Then explain them to me in terms that aren't "You called me town and treated me nice. You can be town!" or "I see myself in you. It might not exactly align with where I am, but I see myself in you. You can be town." or "You hurt my feelings... To the scum pile!". I'm trying to sync with my town reads, and that's hard to do with someone whose reads are dependent on who decided to share their lollipop today.

Regarding Cheetory, the stuff about being less analytical and taking pot-shots are the lines along which Ceph is thinking, and I don't know what to think of you claiming to be thinking along the same lines as Ceph when you evidently have no idea what Ceph was thinking.

Well, then I guess I don't know where Ceph is coming from, but I do think his reads were more spot on. My point was to listen to your team mates more.

Ultimately, I think you're attempting to manipulate me and doing a poor job of it. It would seem strange for someone to interact with the paragon in such a way, but it's quite common knowledge that I believe I'm not nearly as good as my banner would suggests, and I have been described using such words as meek, indecisive and submissive in the past. So, I do not believe it beyond you, or anyone else, to try manipulating me in such a way if you consider it in your best interests to do so. If you are scum as I suspect then you have vastly underestimated the extent of my paranoia.

To be fair, I didn't notice your nice shiny banner, and I wouldn't have cared if I did. And if I was scum, I'd have much better things to do than to pick a fight with one of the most obv. town players in the game. Trust me, you're not even on the top of the list of who I'd want to manipulate.

You have told me that Ceph is right and that I should listen to him even though it has been proven that you have no idea what he was even saying. You say that I'm indecisive, and while this is a common feature of my play, I have been making a (most likely futile) attempt to live up to the paragon title that has been ascribed to me and don't believe that I've actually been indecisive here. I've been clear about which choice I want, to bane or not to bane, and also who I want to bane (ironically any indecision regarding this is only coming about now). You tell me that I'm lost when the only indication for this is that I don't agree with your reads. You are using my 'emotional side' in an attempt to get me to stop not-scumreading Cheetory when my reasons for disagreeing with you are merely seeing his position on the TammyvZar issue as a sensible one that I could see town taking, and not emotional at all. You claim that my townread on Marquis and lack of super strong scumread on Zar are only due to their buddying of me. However, my main reason for townreading Marquis is unrelated to his buddying (the influence of which on my read I'm quite aware of) and my main concern about Zar is his townread of me.

You know, you still haven't elaborated on these reads that are supposedly not influenced by your being emotional. For example, you say that your main reason for townreading Marquis is unrelated to his buddying, but you fail to say what that reason is. In essence, there's not a lot of substance to this argument in general, and it can be summed up as "Wah! Bulba treated me like an adult and told me to pay more attention! He's being mean to me! He must die!".

The above myriad of really strange (and pretty much entirely untrue) claims makes me think that you must be scum. I think it's very likely that people who don't know me well (and in fact probably all but those closest to me) would believe that the best method of defusing me as a threat would be to tell me I'm wrong, sew doubt into me regarding my own reads. Surely meek, indecisive, submissive DV would retreat into his bubble of self-loathing and follow your lead! I even believe that this could happen myself sometimes, and it was in fact my gut reaction to your comments, especially 374.

Seriously, this would involve a plan that requires me to know your play explicitly. How many games have we played together? Look at my team. Are they the type to know your play better than I and to advise me in this evil master plan? Get over yourself.

-His response to Ffery in 341 is the kind of response I could see myself making as scum. Ffery's quote is rather harmless and under normal circumstances shouldn't give Bulbazak any cause for concern. She is aware of her tendency to scumread him or want to scumread him. However, I believe Bulb's reply reveals an underlying self-consciousness/need to be townread.

Have you ever seen me interact with Ffery, especially in a game where I want to sync up with her and there's limited time to do so? No? Sit down and shut up.

-Again in 341, I dislike the way he voted to bane Zar, acting as if it wasn't his choice to but rather his team-mate telling him to, when in fact he later claims that he does believe Zar is scum.

You've obviously never seen the BulbaFenix hydra in action.

Okay, that was probably a little bit more snippy than it needed to be, but I just found it ridiculous every time I went through. I'm done with this. If you want to discuss something else not related to how I'm deflating your ego, I'll be happy to oblige.

I fully believe everyone known for liking scum should be policy lynched

How about we don't and say that we did.

(Also, vezok's town.)

Please explain.

@Bulba, how can you townread someone who has not posted?

By pretending he's me.

I'm assuming this means that you can see how I'm reaching my conclusions, but just because, how about you humor me and tell me how you think I reached a town read on you before you posted.

Also, Cheetory is town.

Also, explain this.

Am I the only one who finds Bulbazak's thought process here bizarre as fuck?

Bulba: "oh I'm mad that I made a post and hito locked the thread"
GIF: "you should have used the Back button"
Bulba: "meh didn't want it anyway"

Surely there'd be better ways to do this as scum, if I'd even say such a thing in the first place. Such a comment is guaranteed to draw attention. Focusing on such statements as a basis for a scum lean is also just silly.

Look, I get that you're lost right now, but can you please not let yourself form judgements around who appeals to your emotional side.

Where exactly am I appealing to DV's emotional side in any of my interactions with him? :/

You're not the one doing the appealing. He's the one that's trying to fit your situation with how he's feeling and drawing conclusions from it, while the two were not even the same.

how's being an IC treating you?

I just found it very fishy

Vote for UT.

Okay Mastin, I think I see where you're coming from. It's how Cheetory's approaching the game, right?

Bane: Zar

We don't think his recent posts are an improvement. Zar, if you want to get out of being the delivery boy you're going to have to post things of your own people can read. If you're town I would prefer you make it obvious now. I'm actually a little nervous about making a spot shared with three scary town players vulnerable this early.

TSO, I asked you to read my posts because I felt you were misunderstanding me and I was repeating myself.

You think I lie for no reason???

The booze is for me tonight to try to make sense of this.

@DV, He asks questions, follows through on the answers and articulates his positions well. This is town Bulba.

That sounds like null bulba. Pls don't declare things that aren't true.

hella yeah this game is gonna be easy.

Esp is town.

Nah, scum Bulba is a lurksack who has trouble faking the same consistency of thought with tone.

Have you even played with scum me? I have a wiki full of meta that will prove you wrong.

Okay, stopping here. I'll get to the rest when I get off work tomorrow.

On to page 22.

[Bulbazak]

But that reminds me Bulba - Are you not paranoid of me at all?

Nope. I figured you'd spend tokens on town, and you towned it up pretty hard in your back and forth with Zar. I have a hard time seeing you fake that kind of paranoia as scum.

Bane: Bulbazak

Hey Bulba. Why are you picking a fight with Deasvail if you think he's one of the most obvtown players in the game?

I didn't mean to pick a fight, but after his response, I got pretty angry and was way more snippy than I should have been. I'm not seeing why that would lead you to bane me.

Empire replacing from a town slot into a scum slot is really unlikely. I supose we can't speculate on if that's what happened, just even if scum I'm not sure if scum in a game where Tammy isn't going to yell at him would be worse then scum in a game where everyone expects him to make giant effort posts right now. It's definitely a townie move and it's just as well since he'll have extra time before the real lynch to post.

I see what you did there.

Oh T-Bone has offered to iso Marquis at some point.

This seems excessive!

How so?

@Bulba

, what do you make of Empire/Empire's wall thus far? Do you take anything from his replace in?

I don't know. It seems like a lot of effort, but I'm not ruling out scum, since effort is not alignment indicative. I've also heard that Zar prefers scum and would have likely spent a token there, although I can't remember if that was in our team PT or in one of our Skype chats. It also doesn't erase Zar's reaction to Tammy, which I found to be highly indicative of scum. It would make sense that Zar drew scum, got himself into a hole, and then Empire had to come over to bail him out. In that case, making a list like that would be a good way to start. I'm not sure if I'm still up for lynching that slot, but it's definitely still a good bane target.

@Bulbazak, So InuYasha is wrong then? I recall you lurking through that.

If you recall, that game amassed pages like crazy, and I kept falling constantly behind. To make matters worse, I was pretty much soloing the game in a hydra account, and I ended up replacing out (for the first time ever). I then spent several months not playing any games just trying to get my crap together. Heck, I'm down to just 1-2 games, and I still don't have everything sorted out. So to say that I lurked in that game and that it was indicative of my alignment is a bit misleading to say the least.

While discussing scheduling, Saturday afternoons and nights are dungeons and dragons.

You too?

I kinda liked her let's policy lynch everyone who likes scum though.

Why?

On to page 30.

[Bulbazak]

Tier's saying he has a decent amount of experience with scumBulba and he's been telling me that townBulba will typically try to figure out people before become really stubborn and pushing for them, and he thinks the lack of Bulba trying to figure things out is uncharacteristic. He really really wants me to push this. o.o

To be fair, I've had a lot of things on my plate the last few days.

Am I the only one who finds Bulbazak's thought process here bizarre as fuck?

Bulba: "oh I'm mad that I made a post and hito locked the thread"
GIF: "you should have used the Back button"
Bulba: "meh didn't want it anyway"

Surely there'd be better ways to do this as scum, if I'd even say such a thing in the first place. Such a comment is guaranteed to draw attention. Focusing on such statements as a basis for a scum lean is also just silly.

But this post doesn't actually address any of my concerns about what is, to my eyes right now, you straight-up lying for no good reason.

"Surely there'd be better ways to do this as scum" - Sure. The point remains you did it. Scum don't play optimally 100% of the time.
"if I'd even say such a thing in the first place" - Well, that's irrelevant, seeing as you -did- say it.
"Such a comment is guaranteed to draw attention." - Yes, correct, but this is

still

pointing out simple logic rather than addressing anything.
"Focusing on such statements as a basis for a scum lean is also just silly" - Why is this? This is the only thing you said that has any relevance to my point.

I still don't understand why you made a post, then didn't post it, then moaned about not being able to even though it was easily retrievable with one click. I'm starting to believe this post never existed, because if it did, then your actions are so incredibly illogical that it's physically not believable for me.

So the only real question I have left to ask after this post is ...why are you lying to us? Because scum in a game like this really, really don't want to admit that they were caught in a lie, and your reaction fits that pretty well.

I never lied. I had made a post featuring a few preliminary reads and notes on my goals for the game, only to find the thread locked. Could I have backed up and copied my post? Yes, but there was no guarantee how long the thread would be locked (It was for several hours.), and I had other things to do. Making a document just to paste a post that was not incredibly important and could be duplicated if I felt like it didn't seem worth it. After Hito re-opened the thread, I quickly made a post with a focus on getting the most important thing submitted: my bane choice (i.e. a vote). At the end, I did include a reference to the thread closure: "Can I do this now, or is the thread going to close again?". Some people didn't like it, and that's fine, but it's frankly in the same category as those who didn't like Tammy's smiley. Calling me a liar because I didn't feel the need to copy a fairly basic post is out of order, as since then, all my thoughts expressed in that post have come out. Can you verify it? No, but I'm not really sure why that is such a major priority for you, as again, this seems like a pretty surface reason/point to build a scum case on.

@Gamma: My play style has been referred to as reactionary before, so really no surprise there. Do you have anything more substantial, or are you going to just dance around the surface.

I'm really not a fan of Aronis's read list. It feels thrown together and shallow.

I saw bulbazack online and hoped he'd post :/

I was either talking to my team or reading through this thread at the time. I think you saw my follow up.

Bulba: What do you think I did there?

Can't tell you, although I will say that I'm pretty sure it makes you conf. town.

I would have expected you to be a lot angier at me by now for basically forcing the Bane immediately onto you.

I'm not angry at you. I did find your bane to come out of nowhere, which did cause me to raise an eyebrow. Who I'm really disappointed for baning me are those who townread me and baned me over Gamma or Empire. I'm angry that I got baned, and that it is now going to make my job much more difficult. And let's not even get into the fact that due to the bane, I'm not even going to be considered for a boon which would actually make my job much easier, forcing me to go about things the hard way. I don't think it's going to matter in the long run, since scum will probably keep me around, but it is really annoying that I got screwed over like this because I dared to have a disagreement with a universal town read.

On that note, it's one of the reasons I was being iffy about my nullscum read on Tammy. I don't actually think I can read Tammy except in cases where she is being very town in her own way which isn't happening here.

Why do you not think she's being town here?

Whoever gets the boon is going to be a target for Mafia.

The boon is only active during the Minor night, which means that the information will already be out there when Mafia have to submit a kill. I'm not sure why scum would choose to kill the player who was booned over who they normally would.

So I think everyone needs to unvote. And then everyone needs to vote if they are ok with being booned. It spreads confusion for mafia over who is a PR and it also gives mafia wifom over if it is actually a good idea to go after whoever gets booned.

Actually, it gives scum a better idea who PRs are, as you are asking for volunteers. This is a horrible plan.

also

I think we might want to have 2-3 people we think are scummy say that they're detecting tonight to try to find Viktor- since traces always come up null for him we can start clearing people of being Viktor on a successful trace - I'm a bit wary of saying that we should immediately lynch someone tomorrow if they come up with a couple of trace fails in case scum have something that would make traces fail on other people but we can at least start clearing people of being Viktor in case he/she's wound up as one of the stronger players on their team and doesn't get lynched for a while.

But if you think these players are scummy, how could you count on them to even do what you say? I mean, isn't that sort of defeating the purpose?

I have a feeling I might need to actually read the thread.

Why haven't you?

Hey, who wants to talk about what we're doing with our two lynches tomorrow while Ffery and Friends ponder our Boonage?

I think it's fairly obvious who people are scumreading. Why do we need to plan things out? That's not going to be very informative in the long run.

Tammy, Sotty's not actually scumreading you; I just made that up and now I feel bad because you're getting so worked up over these scumreads! I hope we still have the chance to try and be the bestest friends forever after this!

Why would you make something like that up? I'm seriously not understanding why you would feel the need to lie about a Tammy scum read.

Speaking of, is it weirding anyone else out that Tammy is suddenly gaining scum reads like candy when it comes time to give out a boon?

I would actually be okay with booning certain groupthink scumreads or lurkers though in order to lessen the cost of nightkills because more often than not they're town!

Um...what? That actually seems like the worst possible plan. Why are people townreading/booning this guy?

Aronis

: Vaguely town, but I don't have anything more than that.

Why is he town?

TellTaleHeart

: I can not explain why but my heart says she's scum. It might be 731, but really I don't know and I don't expect anyone to listen to me (there's no way I would listen to me), but there's something about her that made me think, "this slot is scum", while reading her posts.

What is scummy about #731?

I'm curious as to why Shadoweh and TSO are both focusing on "what has Marquis done" instead of directly tackling any sort of read on me when trying to dissuade people from booning me! Their posts WRT me and the boon are so so similar that it almost doesn't seem crazy that they could be scum together getting hung up over people townreading me for reasons they think are dumb!

Wow! That discredit.

Am I the only one who's actually scumreading vezok?

No. Although I am bothered at how many of my townreads are townreading him. I'm wondering what they're seeing that I'm not. That does weaken the read a bit, but not enough to make me want to boon him.

Also, does anyone know if TTH prefers scum or is good at it? Regfan mentioned it in our convo just now and the swap might be something worth thinking about.

I really don't think their swap has anything to do with alignment. Although if you want to play that game, we can always talk about your swap.

You and Vezok both fit our profile for a good boon choice today.

And what is that profile exactly?

The general consensus is Vezok is town.

So? You know how bad the general consensus can be.

Boon Tammy

[Bulbazak]

Okay. So hard scum reads on Marquis and Aronis.

[Bulbazak]

Okay. So hard scum reads on Marquis and Aronis.

Why? I like them both as town.

Their reaction to my post stunk. I was actually nullish on them until then. Both actually haven't been doing much. If you look back at Marquis's posts, you'll notice that they are wordy with very little substance. If you think about, he says and does very little, and most of it is used to cast doubt. He's paranoid of the universal townreads, but we don't know why, because he tends to talk in circles. This is the third time he's tried to poke holes in the Tammy town read. The first was through "Oh! She could be fooling us, guys!", the second was by pointing out her scum win in the last Team Mafia, and this last time was through a team mate, who he then, surprise, says actually never said that and that he was lying. Why would you lie about something like that as town? It doesn't make sense. And when I ask him about it, he doesn't answer, and instead calls me scum for it. That's avoidance. And even though you defended him, he

was

calling Shadoweh and TSO scum for saying that he shouldn't be booned. He's not up for discussing things. In fact, his MO so far has been to shut discussion down. That's not town motivated.

As for Aronis, his posting is fluff, and his read list was unexplained and composed of easy reads. It's not scummy to say that I don't like it. The town response would be to ask why or to ask what reads I didn't like. He didn't do that. Ergo, scum.

What are you thinking of Mastina Bulba?

I still think she's likely to be town, but I really wish that she'd catch up already. I really want to dig into some of her reads.

[Bulbazak]

I actually don't think I'm that off center as others would have you believe. Granted, my reads may be a bit antiquated in places, and I'm really not holding onto some of them that tightly, but to say that I'm disagreeing with a bulk of the players is wrong.

[Bulbazak]

I'm really not sure why we'd want Marquis to have the boon anyway.

@Titus: I've considered asking Mollie if she'd mind switching with me, as I know she'd have an easier time working with the players in this game, but I also don't want to dump her into a hole that I'm responsible for digging.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, your questions to me don't have answers beyond what I've already said, sorry.

Okay, I can kinda get that for the Aronis read, but not on the TTH post. I want to know what in that post you specifically found scummy, because you brought it out for a reason.

If I had an insta-Vig, I'd shoot Untrod Tripod for a multitude of reasons.

Don't make me reconsider my townread on you.

First you are pretending passionate people don't do what they feel is right despite the team saying otherwise.
Now you're wanting to vig UT for a multitude of reasons you are not even mentioning.

This is looking like you are just attacking anyone who does not boon you or is a boon alternative.

I'm actually not seeing this at all. TSO seems very nonchalant in regards to wanting the boon. Marquis on the other hand...

@Ffery: You never answered me and told me what criteria you were using to determine good boon targets. I figure that's a good way to understand how you came to the Vezok choice, because I'm not understanding why any of my town reads are town reading him.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba, we need to get on the same page. Stat. I feel as if we are reading two separate games sometimes.

And I've told you repeatedly, I don't like Vezok for a boon choice, and I won't be voting for him. You can't yell at TSO to make his own decisions and then yell at me when I do.

Unboon

Boon TSO

Tammy is still the better choice, but if we can't do that, I'd prefer TSO.

[Bulbazak]

Going to address these things I missed before starting on the major day:

He's not up for discussing things. In fact, his MO so far has been to shut discussion down.

Would you say the manner in which you approached engaging me earlier this cycle isn't similar to what you're scumreading Marquis for here? Why or why not?

No, and I'm hoping I'm understanding your question here, but I'm going to address both interpretations. I originally scumread you based on some reactions early game I didn't like. I'm thinking that may have been a response to a playstyle I didn't like, and not anything scummy. Compared to Marquis, I've played enough with him to know when he's towning it up. He's been playing very subdued this game, and I don't know what to make of that. It's unnerving that he's not playing in a manner that he knows most players would town read him if he's town. The fact that I'm not seeing much in terms of overall content and thought process is making me lean towards scum. If, however, you think I played in the same way earlier as Marquis is now, then I disagree. I've always been up for discussing things, and I've never tried to shut lines of communication down. In fact, one of my many flaws is that I can be goaded into a nonproductive line of discussion and made into a distraction.

Also, talk with me about why you like the idea of booning TSO.

He was my strongest town read outside of Tammy up for consideration, and I think he would have used the ability well.

Also also, talk with me about why you don't like vezok.

I've looked back over his ISO, and I'm thinking it may have been a knee jerk reaction to his voicing the exact opposite of my reads, and doing so in a forceful manner. At the time (when he called Tammy scum), I thought he was scum trying to sling mud on an obv. town player. His attack on me (which I address later) also felt like it came at an opportune time, when everyone was calling me scum. It felt like an easy position for him to take. The only thing that made me uneasy about the read was that so many of my town reads were townreading him. And now that read is thrown even more in disarray by what Mollie just told me (more on that later).

Also also also, would you be voting to lynch Marquis right now if it was major D1? If not, who would you be voting for?

No. I think Marquis is worth taking some time to make sure in my read. At this point, I think I'd prefer Gamma or Aronis.

Also, Bulba, can I get some updated thoughts on Empire from you?

I don't want to lynch him. Personally, I still think Zar comes out the worse in the Tammy interaction, and I don't like the way the swap took place. It reads more like the team trying to salvage a scum slot. However, I've seen how several of his reads match mine, and his posts so far haven't been too bad. Also, I think Mollie may be leaning more towards them town, but I'll have to ask her. Ask me again near the end of the day.

@Bulba, we need to get on the same page. Stat. I feel as if we are reading two separate games sometimes.

And I've told you repeatedly, I don't like Vezok for a boon choice, and I won't be voting for him. You can't yell at TSO to make his own decisions and then yell at me when I do.

Unboon

Boon TSO

Tammy is still the better choice, but if we can't do that, I'd prefer TSO.

This is bullshit. I've been booning TSO nearly from the start. I said my team wants him to take the boon while everyone was trying to boon me, but you think I'm scum and he's town? You're reads are so fabricated that you could nail them to a wall to board a window.

You know I can town read him and still scum read you, right? That's what I find so offensive about this post. It comes at a convenient time using BS reasoning of "You can't both scum read me and town read someone I'm townreading.", when that is both not only possible, but also quite common. You also ignore my saying multiple times that I don't want to boon someone that I'm not townreading, and that when asked, I said I was confused why so many of my town reads were townreading you, even going so far as to try to find out why. But you so conveniently ignore that, right?

[Bulbazak]

Lim kinda interested in people clamming their detects and traces. We my hot catch someone in a lie and we can hold them accountability

We who reached could out are chih

My sleeping kill just kicked in and I literally happen go

No.

Is anyone else concerned that the wagon on TTH took off so fast?

@Tammy: Also, Mollie just told me you're scum. What do you have to say to that?

Vote Gammagooey

[Bulbazak]

Okay. I just don't really have a read on TTH, and I don't think their switch is indicative one way or the other. If we're going to PL somebody, I'd prefer Aronis.

[Bulbazak]

Since when were we going to policy lynch someone?

THAT'S what you took out of everything I said?

[Bulbazak]

Oh, I still scum read you, but I don't think you're a bad lynch even if you're town. You bring nothing to the table and will do more harm than good in the long run. That the policy part. The scum part comes from your fluff posts, thrown together reads, and opportunistic stances, which is a trademark of scum you. Personally, I think your lynch would be a win-win.

[Bulbazak]

Can you please point out where I have been opportunistic?

Shallow read list that copies the current consensus. Votes (and yes, I include banes and boons here too) that are only on the most popular wagon. Your entire vote/read history is "let's do what everyone else is doing".

And when did fluff become a scum tell?

Are you serious?

[Bulbazak]

Except that there's no progression in any of your reads. For example, why are you voting TTH?

[Bulbazak]

Yep. That doesn't look phoned in at all.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote Aronis

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba, I'd like to pick your brain on some of the places where we disagree on reads. If you could take for instance Vezok and state a simple case about why you're scumreading him and I'll state a simple case on why I'm townreading him and we can see if we can figure that out or not. You're my biggest townread in the game at the moment, and I don't like how your scumread by a lot of players. I also don't get it.

I'm reevaluating Vezok at the moment. I've asked Mollie to look over his ISO and let me know what she thinks, but her statement that Tammy is scum is making me consider that I've been off not only there, but also on Empire, which would put Vezok square in "most likely town". I may have just had a bad knee jerk reaction to him. I still hate the last post of his from the minor day, though.

P-edit: Why is your approval for TTH essentially Aronis's reason word for word?

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba, When you get your reads settled, particularly Tammy scum as that's shocking, let me know why.

I've actually asked Mollie to explain that one, because I had her as town. When she gives me a reason, I'll share.

[Bulbazak]

If that isn't part of her explanation, sure.

[Bulbazak]

@CDB: Why don't you like looking at how people approach the game? I think that's the best way to understand their mindset and thought process, which helps in figuring out whether they're town or scum.

@Bulba, I'd like to pick your brain on some of the places where we disagree on reads. If you could take for instance Vezok and state a simple case about why you're scumreading him and I'll state a simple case on why I'm townreading him and we can see if we can figure that out or not. You're my biggest townread in the game at the moment, and I don't like how your scumread by a lot of players. I also don't get it.

I'm reevaluating Vezok at the moment. I've asked Mollie to look over his ISO and let me know what she thinks, but her statement that Tammy is scum is making me consider that I've been off not only there, but also on Empire, which would put Vezok square in "most likely town". I may have just had a bad knee jerk reaction to him. I still hate the last post of his from the minor day, though.

P-edit: Why is your approval for TTH essentially Aronis's reason word for word?

Um that was serious?

Yes. I asked Mollie to look over the game, Vezok in particular, and "Tammy is scum" is what she came back with. She's since expanded on it, saying that your reactions are off. She compares your reaction here to being scumread to the one in Unbalanced 2, where you were hysterical and threatened to replace out. Here it looks like you don't care. She says that your posts are passive aggressive to people who aren't townreading you, and that you don't seem to be worried about getting lynched. She says you seem very confident, but that there's also a weird placidness that she doesn't understand. She didn't like you hiding behind Ffery's read in #1405 or the discredit that followed. She says that when you're town, you argue as to why you're town, instead of relying on someone else's read. She says that it's a specious argument and that you know that conf. town does not equal conf. reads, and that as far as she knows, both Ffery and herself have a similar track record in terms of playing with you.

In regards to Ffery, she does think she can see where Ffery is getting her town read of you. She thinks it's where you claimed not to have read the set up. This comes from the assumption that scum Tammy would have been more careful and read the setup before hand. Mollie says she's not sure about that. She's also stated that if Ffery's scumreading me, then "the axis of which she is pivoting the game is borked", which is why she's not trusting the reads at all.

Hey Bulba. Can you ask mollie if she thinks that Tammy's tone is town frustrated or scum default? She's seen both recently, they are both similar.

Why don't yu ask the confirmed fucking town that is actually playing in this game, has played more games with me, and can read me better.

Personally, I trust Mollie's ability to read you better, as she's spent more time with you not only in games, but also in a hydra.

It's unnerving that he's not playing in a manner that he knows most players would town read him if he's town.

Why do you think he wouldn't do this if he's scum?

He may not think he could replicate that sort of play as scum. To be fair, I'm not sure he can either.

La di da, I supose I should mention I've been reading since day start, today's discussion about TTH just caught me off-guard so I'm waiting for it to be resolved before bringing up distractions.

What do you think about the TTH wagon?

Do you have experience with townAronis?

Yes, although I think his scum game is easier to pick out.

What would you be expecting from him that you aren't seeing here?

It's what I'm seeing that's actually the problem. I played with scum Aronis in LotR, and he's incredibly obvious as scum. If he's being opportunistic in his voting patterns, then he's more than likely scum and should be lynched.

Uh. Okay, so walk me through this townread on Bulba because I have Tier sitting on my one shoulder telling me that his play on D1 looked bad based on his experience with his scum-meta and a lot of his content lately has just been responding to things/posturing/not a lot of trying to build cases on people to try and build wagons. His Aronis vote is sitting there and there isn't a lot of convincing reasoning there. It looks like it's just there for show to me. His stance on TTH is also pretty contrary, which makes me feel like he's possibly scum trying to avoid jumping on board a large wagon so he can coast for now on the sidelines. Argue with me and convince me that I'm wrong if you think I'm wrong. TIA.

First, I have no faith in Tier's ability to read me at all. Second, you just got done saying that I'm probably not scum with TTH. However, you think I may be scum avoiding jumping on the TTH wagon. But then you immediately vote TTH. Why? If I'm scum, then TTH is likely town, and I'm avoiding a mislynch, which means you need to dismantle the wagon. However, if I'm town, then that means I have real objections to the TTH wagon. These are objections that I would think you would try to get to the bottom of if you're town. And if that's the case, then that means that you wouldn't want to rush a TTH vote. So again, why are you voting TTH, because from everything you've just said, that is the worst possible vote imaginable.

[Bulbazak]

Do you think I'm trying to get TTH quicklynched right now?

I'm not sure why you're voting him. Everything you just said indicates that you wouldn't want to.

If he's being opportunistic in his voting patterns

So, how is he being opportunistic with his voting patterns?

All of his reads and all of his votes have been the popular choices.

[Bulbazak]

I would have thought you'd spend some time asking why I didn't like the wagon, since you didn't think we were scum together. Instead you jumped to me being scum trying to avoid a big wagon. Those two thoughts seem contradictory to me.

[Bulbazak]

I'm not really seeing a scenario where TTH flips town.

I am, and it's a pretty obvious one.

I find it really really suspicious that after spending all of yesterday calling me town, which I thought was off mind you!, you're using someone who can't read me all that well to turn your read on me around.

Care to point out where I've discussed my read in conjunction with Mollie's? I don't believe I've said anything of the sort and have just been waiting to see what came of it.

Not to mention the shit as fuck reason you gave for why you're trusting someone who doesn't actually have that much experience with me over someone who does. All of mollies shit was shit too. It's kinda funny because in all that oh well I trust mollie because she's hydrad with you, which she on,y has in a scum hydra once, so she knows you better, you guys keep just mentioning ffery - and forgetting the fact that we may not have hydrad but there's more recent experience there - and I don't know where you're getting the mollie knows me better, I don't feel like she does. Also in that oh I'm going to trust mollie cuz hydra and faulty "knows me better" how come both of you are ignoring nachos read, who actually does know me better, has played more with me, has hydrad several times with me including one right now?

I trust Mollie's opinion on you a lot. In fact, when I considered switching, one of the reasons was that Mollie would be able to work well with you if you were town. And you keep forgetting that I have talked with you outside of Mafiascum via Skype, so I know how highly you think of Mollie, and I know how close you two are. As such, I trust her ability to read you. Do you know how often I recall you talking about Ffery and her ability to read you, like ever? None. It's either Mollie or Nacho, and I have direct access to one of those two. I'll also note that I did not ask Mollie to look at you when she read the game, but that she came back with an immediate read on you anyway. And I didn't go "Well, okay then." followed by a vote on you or a major push on you in game, I asked her to instead explain her read to me, which I relayed back as soon as I got it. And you were not initially wrong that my outing Mollie's read was a reaction test, because I was interested in how you would approach it. You know what you did? It sure wasn't trying to understand how Mollie could have gotten that read. Instead, you tried to discredit her ability to read you and promoted Ffery, the conf. town, instead. I can actually see why she finds all that shady as heck, but there is also some other stuff that she told me that I did not relay, because I think it can point in your favor, and you can be sure I'm going to talk to her about that. Overall, I'm still not interested in lynching you, but I will say that my read of you has taken a hit given your most recent reaction.

My main problem with this whole thing is not me ruling on someone's town read, but that you people are avoiding them like the plague. Not one person who suspects me, and who should know better, has engaged them on that read, and I find that hella suspicious.

I've actually tried to talk to Ffery several times about some of her reads. That line of discussion has had trouble taking off. And you're right that I didn't talk to them about you, because until yesterday, there was no need.

So no bombshells from Mollie.

She's missing a lot of the basis for my townread, and what she picked up was something I think is town for different reasons. it's a different (and much more extensive) slice of experiential meta that's informing my read.

I'm not going to try to discern Mollie's alignment filtered through your posts. From what I know of her games with Tammy the meta basis is thin but she hasn't twisted the data out of shape or anything.

Mollie read the first 10 pages to try to figure out why you were reading Tammy. She said she could figure it out after 1. Other than that, I only think she's read some of the more recent stuff. She's definitely not that versed into what's going on in this game (Heck, she didn't even understand the minor/major day mechanic and thought it was day 2 or something.). I can talk to her when she gets back, but I doubt she's ever going to read the entire thing.

@CDB: Why don't you like looking at how people approach the game? I think that's the best way to understand their mindset and thought process, which helps in figuring out whether they're town or scum.

You're missing my point.

Everything

comes down to how someone "approaches the game". Everything that everyone in this thread is talking about comes down to that. You might as well have turned to whoever it was you were addressing and saying "oh, hey, I get it. It's because of how Cheetory is playing, right?". It's an empty statement.

No it's not, but I doubt you understand what I'm getting at.

hi tth

i do understand anti's been busy lately

yes, even as town

but you can't use that to make an argument in the other direction

nor does it make you being scum any less true!

i'm not changing my vote no matter how much you pretend your softclaiming is subtle and ~totallyrealtownwithasecret~

<3 sorry and ttyl! <3

So I'm making a scum read on Marquis official after reading this post.

@Vezok: I think I'm starting to get why you're being town read, but that doesn't over rule the fact that I think your reads are crap this game.

@Mastin: Talk to me about Gamma.

[Bulbazak]

And now Mollie is telling me that I should work on my ambassador skills. I guess she saw enough and liked the emotional push on me.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulbazak, Can you clarify 1536... which push? by whom? why? what are ambassador skills? what do they have to do with anything?

Mollie thinks I should have been more diplomatic with Tammy. I'm not sure how I could have been, as I just gave her Mollie's reasoning in a paraphrased form, but whatever. Mollie did like Tammy's push back on me, though, as she thinks Tammy is more likely to go immediately towards the emotional side as town. I'm actually wondering if I've just been used as a giant reaction test.

[Bulbazak]

@Singer: Thoughts on Vezok and Gamma when you have the chance.

[Bulbazak]

I have the same feelings regarding the TTH wagon as I did with the Shos wagon in Unbalanced 2. It's a bad lynch.

[Bulbazak]

I didn't like the composition of the Shos wagon. I felt it was a bad wagon that built up too fast and was being championed by scum. I feel the same way about the TTH wagon. There were only two people with good reasons for being on that wagon, and neither of them are pushing it now.

[Bulbazak]

I agree that the TTH wagon shot up pretty quickly, but I haven't really seen anyone explain why that's such a bad thing right now, especially given the opportunity to have two lynches.

It wasn't just that it shot up quickly. It was that it shot up quickly early. Even with two lynches, that is unusual behavior, and I'm not seeing the town push behind the wagon, especially since the reasoning given at that time was crap and very surface. And yes, I even think Vezok's reasons, while understandable, are not airtight reasons to lynch him, given as I can think of a couple of town reasons for detecting DV.

[Bulbazak]

Again, with this notion that everyone on this wagon is trying to quicklynch TTH.
It's baffling to me that you're acting like this is anything but a pressurewagon.

That's a pretty blatant misrepresentation of what I'm saying. I was saying that the wagon was most likely heavily scum pushed, with some on and some not on the wagon. I think the speed and composition of that wagon should be giving people pause. I was not saying that everyone on that wagon was trying to accomplish a quick lynch, just that the scum pushing the wagon were. It was quick, easy, and such a clusterf- that no one was going to look at it twice. And don't even try to pass it off as a pressure wagon. Titus may have been trying to pressure TTH, but there's no way everyone on that wagon was, especially when several tried to justify their vote in other ways that equaled not pressure.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba, who do you think the people justifying their vote on TTH as more than pressure were? Why?

I'd be looking at the ones trying to push TTH on the basis of the switch with Antihero. That was a crap line of reasoning and seemed thrown together to not seem as if they were sheeping. Aronis and CDB come to mind here (one on, one off), but I think there was another as well. Pushing based on an informationless switch seems like something scum would do.

So how many people on it do you think are scum hoping to get a quicklynch on TTH?
2? 3?

I don't know. I'd have to look at the wagon again. I'm thinking at least two, with one off the wagon but supporting it.

I think most of the wagon would have been on anyone's case if they hammered, so why are you acting like "oh man no one will look at it twice" when that's blatantly just not what would happen if a quicklynch were to go through.

In this case, I'm pretty sure a hammer would have been from a town player. My point is that no one would be looking at where scum actually were on the wagon. Everyone would dismiss it as a bunch of town being hungry for a lynch after the minor day, citing TTH's lack of posting to justify their push, but no one would look at who was actually on the wagon. Essentially, it would be an embarrassment that town would want to sweep under the rug and pretend didn't happen.

And and looking at how fast wagons grow is a shitty way of determining whether it's full of scum or not, especially in a game with this many people and so few scum.

Normally I'd agree with you, but I'm looking at the speed at which that wagon took off, and I'm having a hard time seeing that as being a naturally town driven one. Sometimes if the progress of something seems off to you, you trust your gut and put up the caution sign.

I feel horrible doing this, but I have to say it.
Empire's replace-out wasn't a town one.
singer's content is not town content.
That read's not a holdover of a read on Empire. I mean that singer's content simply isn't town, in addition to her slot not having been town in any of its iterations.

Let's just be more specific here Mastin. The not town content coming from Singer is her attempt to try to limp wristedly push the TTH wagon back into the spotlight based on "information". As I've said, the TTH wagon was a clusterf-, and using it for information will probably lead to more mislynches if scum are pushing that angle. I could see Singer trying to promote lynching those nervous about the speed of the wagon, rather than those on the wagon pushing for crap reasons. Besides, if she really wanted to lynch someone based on interaction and who would give the most information, she'd be angling for my lynch.

I have the same feelings regarding the TTH wagon as I did with the Shos wagon in Unbalanced 2. It's a bad lynch.

Then you should have the same feels about Esp as you did about Toon!

I'm torn on Esp and am trying to get that all figured out. Personally, I'm not liking some of CDB's stances. They seem way too strategic.

I don't like that all of his early posting about mastin could easily be something that he legitimately thinks and believes to be true as scum

But if I were scum, wouldn't I

know

it to be true?

his early certainty in his cheetory read feels overly confident for how early in the game it was at the time

Talk to Titus or Mastin about how confident I tend to be on my reads during the game.

his early townread on Titus doesn't feel justified to me at all and felt like a fabricated read when I think Titus could definitely be convinced/talked through her mastin read the way she was as either alignment.

So you don't see at all where I interact with Titus and try to understand if she's coming from a town or scum place?

I also think his read on vezok was pretty garbage, that his discrediting way of going after Deas and I using wording like this-

Do you have anything more substantial, or are you going to just dance around the surface.

is a minor scumtell, that his vote on me coming right as he might think the little wave of suspicion around me might show up to back him up without actually giving anything on why he thinks I'm scum

Okay, so now we've reached the meat of the entire read: You don't like that I was suspicious of you, your town read, or that I didn't bow down to the obv. town DV when I interacted with him. If you're town, you need to majorly reset here.

and don't see any reads based on his own thought processes that stand out as something that shows that he's likely town- pretty much all his scumreads I can see that aren't about fairly to highly talked about players seem to be based on their reactions to him as opposed to being from reading over them and seeing something that strikes him as being scummy.

Definitely reread or start to back this up.

It feels a LOT like an enormous chunk of the talking he's doing here is for the sake of arguing as opposed to actually getting scumreads and getting them lynched.

If you think I'm not actually getting scum reads from my lines of questioning/interaction, then you really need to reread the game.

[Bulbazak]

This might've been addressed already, but according to my team (Regfan), there's no role that justifies visiting one of the more universally town-read people in the game that can be proven the next day, etc. with regards to TTH. (Mina) It looks more like he's trying to save himself another day, and based on how many actions we can assume scum have, could use those to lie.

I like how you go with "proven". It's like you know what he is and are trying to get him lynched so that you don't have to worry about his ability during the major night.

also i don't get why bulba is so quick to call it a pressure wagon/votes when it should be really obvious by now that it isn't at all

I'm not. Cheetory is. My point was that the wagon was being heavily pushed by scum.

[Bulbazak]

Tth ia scum because anti replaced out of here.

Um...no.

@Bulb...let's not pretend TTH didn't heavily imply that it was a proveable role. I can't tell if you're confbiasing me by reading into that, white knighting the shit out of TTH, or just really trying to defend someone...

Was there a question hidden in there? I just don't like the way you're pushing against that slot. It started as "let's lynch him for information" and now it's down to the argument of "well, he can't

prove

that he's something useful, so we should lynch him anyway.". Both arguments ignore any real cases on the slot of why it might be scum and instead focus on just pushing through a lynch. That's what I find unnerving and unnatural, and I remember playing with town you and that not being the case.

-You would know that Titus is town, but that doesn't stop you from believing that the posts she was making SHOULD make her likely or clearly town based on what you legitimately believes looks like or are towntells in her play. I definitely try to match up a lot of my reads as scum to what I think I'd actually say and believe as town and I think that most not-brand-new players do the same thing.

I thought we were talking about Mastin. That's a pretty big jump if so, so the argument that I could have made the same logical leap as scum is inconsistent, because it was quite a leap and would have been predicated off of foreknowledge and not conjecture.

-Saying that my entire read is based on your vote on me is not only a godamn WORTHLESS combination of only seeing what's convenient for you to see and an attempt to discredit my read on you, it's also clearly not true considering that I've been scumreading you since FAR before your vote on me and have been posting about it since pretty early on in minor day 1.

True or false. Your scum read of me materialized after my disagreement with DV. If false, explain where it materialized and why that is scummy. If true, explain why I would pick a fight with a universal townread as scum, since that seems pretty counterintuitive to me.

-I see you attacking Marquis for his reaction to you and you commenting on the big posters and players of the game, and then voting Aronis of the wonder-lurker posse instead of making a stand on any of them. What I don't see is any commitment to pushing on a scum-read that might put you in danger of being widely disagreed with or you having any visible likely-town thought processes that are resulting in any of your reads here.

Again, if you don't think I'm making a stand, then you're not reading the game. Heck, the whole reason why I voted Aronis was because I said he was a good vote regardless, and I stand by that. I'm still mulling through things, and I haven't seen anything to make me want to abandon that vote as of yet (although being sheeped by Vezok is unnerving me a bit).

Actually, while you're at it, can you please come at me with something more substantial, because this just feels vague. What are you having a problem with specifically?

We need to get a wagon going based on more than pressure. Please.

You could always join me on the Aronis wagon. It's not pressure, just policy and a likely scum lynch. Or we could change things up and vote UT.

P-edit: Actually, changed my mind.

Unvote

Vote Marquis

[Bulbazak]

(7)

TellTaleHeart:

Titus, Empire, Tammy, Aronis, Marquis, vezokpiraka, Cheetory6

(ChannelDelibrd)

[L-3]

Okay, this is the TTH wagon at it's height. Titus, Tammy, and Vezok have the best reasons for being on this wagon, but everyone else kinda sheeps. Empire jumps on immediately with a naked vote. I don't think he ever expanded on the reasoning, and Singer is now trying a blind push on the slot, which is suspicious coming from her. Aronis and Marquis both jump on with a naked vote as well. Pressure on Aronis revealed reasoning based on the swap, which is BS reasoning that I see scum taking. Antihero hadn't posted anything, so to say the swap was scum motivated is stretching, as it makes just as much sense that they swapped so that Anti could play in a game size he could better handle. I find the fact that the Anti/TTH swap is shown as suspicious, while the Zar/Empire swap (Zar was actually under a substantial amount of pressure) is not worthy of a serious look. It makes me think the push on TTH for this reason is weak justification from scum to explain their actions. I've also pointed out that Aronis tends to be opportunistic as scum, and this follows in line with that. I'm also not please with Marquis, since his reason for being on the wagon seems to fluctuate. I really don't think that Aronis and Marquis are scum together, though. I find Cheetory's reason to be on the wagon to match up with how he's scumhunting. His vote is most likely town. CDB is interesting, because although he put TTH at L-2, he spent a lot of time trying to avoid the wagon. Overall, I'm thinking he makes up the third scum vote on the wagon, with the fourth completely avoiding the wagon, probably without even a serious mention. The other two are in {Singer, Aronis, Marquis}.

[Bulbazak]

@Titus: Actually, I'm getting ready to take a closer look at my bane wagon. I might switch my vote after that.

[Bulbazak]

(10)

Bulbazak:

DeasVail, Gammagooey, Shadoweh, Cheetory6, Titus, vezokpiraka, GuyInFreezer, Aronis, Tammy, T S O

(Tammy)

[Decided!]

Also, the following people tried to cast bane votes on me after the hammer: CDB, UT

Up to Cheetory is the wagon as it was for the longest time. All four had reasons for being on that wagon, even if I don't agree with them. I have DV as obv. town ticked off at my questioning him, and Shadoweh as conf. town suspecting me for the same reasons. Vezok and TSO being on the wagon also don't surprise me. I'm disappointed in Titus, GIF, and Tammy for joining this wagon, as all three were heavily townreading me. Yes, they wanted a decision to move on to boon, and as such they compromised, but if they were following the same rules as they would in a lynch situation, if you have a strong townread on someone, you don't compromise on them ever. I at least saw the struggle from Tammy. Really disappointed that Titus and GIF caved so quickly, especially since they could have directed the wagon onto Empire or Gamma, both on wagons that they weren't strong townreading. Again, Aronis's vote comes across as bad here. His bane vote was due to OMGUS, but if you look closer, you can see that he was avoiding answering any of the questions or criticism I was sending his way. I also don't like the timing of his vote in connection with its overall place on the wagon. It just seems way too convenient. CDB's vote falls soon after TSO's, and I can see where he might not have seen it. Nothing suspicious there. What is suspicious is that this is a start of a pattern. He was very wishy washy about where he wanted his vote before and only voted for compromise reasons. Before that, he really didn't have much of an opinion on me or anyone else one way or the other. If you go back, you'll also notice that he compromised on the Vezok boon wagon, hiding behind Ffery, if I remember correctly. Now follow up that pattern with his treatment and jump on and off of TTH. He seems to be supportive of the popular wagons, but only at times that such support won't garner him suspicion. UT's vote comes a full two hours after the hammer. Given that people were constantly giving the count in the thread, making it obvious that TSO hammered, there's no way UT couldn't have done the math. This makes his vote for show.

All in all, I think this makes Marquis look a little better, as scum around my wagon are in {Aronis, CDB, UT}. Combined with analysis from the TTH wagon, I think we definitely have scum in {Aronis, CDB}.

Unvote

Vote ChannelDelibird

[Bulbazak]

Also, if anyone ever claims vig, they should be quicklynched. Given that the theme is Creation vs. Annihilation, I don't think town has any killing powers.

P-edit: I think the speed in this case was indicative of greedy scum.

[Bulbazak]

@UT: Were you prepping a Vig fake claim?

[Bulbazak]

That's okay. You've done jack all this game.

[Bulbazak]

If your reason for voting TTH is to get a claim, then your motivations are either warped or scum.

[Bulbazak]

I really can't remember much about any of UT's stances.

[Bulbazak]

A lot of this day phase has already been slow because so many of our talkers are V/LA. As much as I want to lynch CDB (and I do, a whole lot still), he's V/LA until the 17th. Wouldn't it be better to wait until he's here for the second lynch?

If you're that concerned about it, we could always go for an Aronis lynch.

(although being sheeped by Vezok is unnerving me a bit).

Why? Vezok has just become more and more town?

Because last I heard, Vezok was scumreading me and TTH. Heck, he's been pretty adamant for a TTH lynch. Yet he jumps of TTH and onto Aronis with his other scum read. Why? It doesn't make sense to me and makes me nervous.

Bulba, why is Shadow conf town?

Can't tell. You're just going to have to trust me on this one.

Bulba - I'm not really sure how to respond. If I thought it was a reaction test in the first place, I didn't think that mollie was actually scum reading me. I do like mollie a lot, but just because I didn't mention that I thought ffery could read me when we were chatting doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I probably didn't mention that Faraday can read me either, and he's the person who can read me better than anyone else. And you did say/imply you were changing your read based on mollie when you said:

I've asked Mollie to look over his ISO and let me know what she thinks, but her statement that Tammy is scum is making me consider that I've been off not only there, but also on Empire, which would put Vezok square in "most likely town". I may have just had a bad knee jerk reaction to him. I still hate the last post of his from the minor day, though.

That's what made it feel convenient.

It just made my read on you mushier. I was torn between my personal read, which was pretty strong, and the one from Mollie, who I trusted to read you. At the same time I was trying to figure out Vezok and why he was town read. And given that his reads were Empire-town/Tammy-scum, things got pretty confusing. I kinda had you in the "leave it alone and let it sort itself out" pile.

It was a vanity wagon, not useful.

Do you still have a scumread on Tammy?

Seriously? You wagon me exactly as I leave for a meet? That's really dumb.

So...caught for the wrong reasons.

What you're wrong about: my vezok boon vote was not blindly sheeping ffery. Go back in my iso to that point. Ffery offered me three choices when I asked but I explained clearly why I chose vezok of those three, and she agreed with my reasoning, not the other way round (not that I influenced her read, just that I clearly wasn't parroting).

You asked what Ffery's choice for a boon was, then jumped in the middle of the popular wagon backed by the conf. town. How am I misrepresenting anything here?

Your analysis of my relationship to the TTH wagon also doesn't take into proper account my posts on TTH before the end of Minor Day and around my discussion with her when she showed up.

So I didn't take into account you talking about a vacant slot? Okay, what am I supposed to have found so convincing? Why are you ignoring my problem with your stance on that wagon, i.e. supporting the wagon but not wanting to jump on for the longest time?

You're also the one who started this wagon at literally the worst possible time to give me as town time to deal with it appropriately.

I really wasn't paying attention to that. I simply went over a few wagons and came to the conclusion that your voting pattern, combined with your forgettable stances, made you more likely to be scum. Also, you're harping over a non-issue in regards to the V/LA. People tend to back off because of stuff like that, and it's not like I was trying to rush people into a lynch with my single vote. Your blowing this into a large issue shows that you want to make the argument about that and not why people are reading you as scum.

You were already on my list of suspects. This doesn't make me feel better about you, but I don't want to scumread you

just

for scumreading me because enough people are doing it that at least some town are likely just wrong.

Wow. Threatening and wishy-washy. I'm so scared. The fact that you're not trying to address the reasons players are scumreading you and are instead trying to guilt them into jumping off tells me that we're on the right track here.

On to page 79.

[Bulbazak]

aaaand also also also I might sort of think that bulba could be town that's just being sketchy and a little manipulative and is scumhunting in a way that is pretty easy for scum to fake but I expect that this opinion will change again when bulba continues doing those things and i continue to hate them

I'm thinking you just dislike my playstyle. However, I do take offense to being called manipulative. Where have I been manipulative?

@Bulba: Yes, but I am less confident that I am reading accurately this game and am holding out for later to see if my head is going good.

I see. Walk me through this read again.

2) I asked for a shortlist, more than once. I got one choice before eventually getting three. I voted before the other two were volunteered but the intent is obvious and, as I say, reasons are vindicated by the fact that I say I'm sticking with vezok over the other two

before

ffery says same

This still does not disprove my point at all.

3) I think you should look at the recently finished Uncouth mafia in theme park and look at my treatment of ika day 1 if you think I wouldn't express support for a major wagon as town while getting on with something else. Almost more important to make a point of doing something about little-spoken-about Gif than making even clearer the fact that I also suspected TTH, which should have been obvious from my questioning of her late in minor day.

My problem wasn't you showing support for the TTH wagon but not being on it. My problem was you expressing being nervous about the wagon while somewhat voicing support. That support was kinda limpwristed, btw. It looked like you wanted to be off the wagon when it went through and TTH flipped town, yet you wanted to leave the possibility open for your joining later if needed.

4) if i were only arguing on basis of 'unfair time to wagon me' then that would be fair point, but I'm doing that AND addressing concerns as best I can. I can appreciate that you would prefer to vote your highest scumread regardless of availability but the unique advantage of this game is that you can pursue two targets today and still come back on me for lynch 2 when I have more time and internet to play properly (obviously helps to avoid mislynch on me but even if i were scum you would prefer me to have more time to make posts that would help you catch buddy tells later so it's hard to argue that wagoning me now is a good plan).

Fair enough.

@Tammy, Let me be blunt with you. I see zero "personal drama" from Espy, and I am scumreading him. I think you are blowing things out of proportion. That leads me to wonder, hyperparanoid town or scum? The fact you might be switching with Oversoul doesn't look good to me as I have difficulties reading him (Dr. Who I tunnelled him bad, and only cleared him in InuYasha due to VCA) and you are supposed to be obvtown if town. I do not mean this as a threat but telling you how I will perceive it and I doubt I am the only one who would be bothered. Would you be lynched on this alone? No but it does get my paranoia juices flowing.

If Tammy replaces with Oversoul, it will have nothing to do with this game.

Ok what are people's opinions on TTh's case on Marq? Considering how solid it looked to me, I'm surprised that we're the only two votes on him.

I didn't see that as much of a case. I can see why that would make TTH want to vote Marquis, but it doesn't really do much for me in the long run.

My team also collectively thinks TTH should claim now before the possibility of putting together a fake claim tomorrow based on results/actions of partner.

Anyone who still thinks this is town needs to explain why the above is town motivated, and then stay for a bit while I .

Bulba was the town doctor in HU2. I was scum there. He was widely scumread.

I had some doubt thrown at me d2 after scum failed to kill me n1. I made it abundantly clear on that first day that I was town with good reads. Scum spent the next two days trying to discredit me before killing me for good.

town doctor and scum share some motivations. I've tunneled more doctors than I think any other PR in the games where I've mistaken PR tells for scum tells.

I'm not sure what to make of this. Really, this is quite horrible. Please just give me a complete reads list now, because I think Mollie is right and your reads are way out there.

Unvote

Vote Singersigner

[Bulbazak]

I'm not sure what to make of this. Really, this is quite horrible. Please just give me a complete reads list now, because I think Mollie is right and your reads are way out there.

Ask mollie what to make of it.

I will. I'll get back to you when I get an answer.

I don't care if Bulbazak is scum, he's so town that he's town.

Now I really wish I was scum, because I want to add this to my sig.

There are problems with Bulbazack and with Mastin, but I'm going to go do something else.

Hey, Bulbazak.
Hey, TTH.
Let's invite Titus, too.

Want to make a "bloody insane townbloc" made up of people who are, apparently, well...yaknow?

Sure. It's about the only chance we have of actually producing results.

TTH scum read is based on two large things:

1.

TTH visiting DV

: DV is widely regarded as one of the most universally town-read people in this game, and my team has a really hard time justifying what kind of role could be provable that would justify this action. He's fairly active and far from incompetent, and seems like a prime N1 scum kill target. Without mentioning or commenting on DV during Minor Day 1, and stressing her town read of Marquis with the Boon vote, it looks like scum trying to find the sign for that accurate night kill. Her return in Post 1484 and reaction in Post 1486 make very little sense from our perspective. Like I said earlier, we feel so strongly that this is not a town-motivated action or reaction, that we don't want to give her the opportunity to come back and fake-claim something later based on more scum results and the likelihood that this was done in order to kill DV.

2.

TTH replacing in:

Before you get your panties in a bunch, it's not just because Anti replaced out and he hates being scum. The excuse given was that Anti didn't have time for this game and couldn't keep up with how large it had gotten. Because of this, I/we would expect much more out of her. Even Titus has accredited her with being competent, so it's weird that she's satisfied with TTH's contributions which we all have found to be underwhelming at best. Not only that, but her contributions basically break down like this: 30% defending her action last night, agreeing with Mastin through Post 1520 (which feels like scum taking advantage of Mastin's terrible reads), disappearing for three days only to come back and comment on Tammy's case/how busy she is/how she has reads but doesn't give them (Post 2116), then attacking DV's reads in Post 2117.

It boils down to actively lurking unless she's the topic of conversation, and not being able to substantiate the reasons for her action while simultaneously being as little a factor in this game as Antihero was.

This is horrible and incredibly shallow. The first point is essentially an attempt to mislynch a PR or rolefish to see if they need to be NK'd. The second is garbage and surface level, since it relies on the null action of the swap plus activity level in a large game with close to 100 pages. This is not town reasoning folks.

But seriously, why the hell are you voting Shadoweh?

Because Shadoweh is town.

We both townread Empire's replace out.

At most, the replace out was null. That slot hasn't done anything to be town read for.

@bulba,

This is my one reach-out to you. If you want to convince me you're town or work with me in this game, then it will have to be without further posts that I interpret as sniping and discrediting. Talk about your reads, not my shortcomings.

I asked you for a reads list. Where is it? I want to know for sure where you're standing on everything so I can begin to address the differences in our reads.

I won't mind Shadoweh being lynched just because of her not obvtowning like she did in touhou upick 3

Shadoweh is conf. town and is never going to be lynched as long as I'm alive. If you think Mastin can raise a fuss on TTH, you haven't seen what I can do when someone tries to get a wagon going on a conf. townread.

@Esp: I asked you to go over why you were scumreading Tammy again. Why did you ignore me?

[Bulbazak]

conf town is a strong statement.

It is, and it's said for a good reason that I can't go into. You'll have to trust me on this one.

[Bulbazak]

@Ffery: I'll get to it tomorrow. I'm expecting to collapse any second now.

@GIF: Short version: The way she treated Empire's replace in does not come from scum. She examined it from a point of trying to figure out the game, which comes from town. Really, if you want to call CDB town for not wanting Ika to replace in, then you need to extend the same courtesy there. If you have something more specific to accuse Shadoweh of, I'll be more than happy to quibble with you.

[Bulbazak]

#660. It's the most important post in her entire ISO.

[Bulbazak]

I should really learn to go to bed sometimes. Anyway, here's the readslist you wanted Ffery:

Town

Shadoweh
Oversoul
Mastin2
Titus
DeasVail
TellTaleHeart
GuyInFreezer
TSO
ActionDan

Null/Town

Cheetory6
Vezokpiraka

Null

Gammagooey
Marquis
Espeonage

Null/Scum

Untrod Tripod
ChannelDelibird
Aronis

Scum

Singersigner

Admittedly, the borders of these categories are a little more in flux than usual. I actually moved them back and forth several times. Reads like AD, Espeonage, and Aronis are right on those lines. Several reads are also strongly influenced by my town reads as well as my team.

[Bulbazak]

I really liked his early game, and whenever he posts, I still get the same sort of warm fuzzies. I just have a hard time seeing that sort of thought process coming from scum. His activity is atrocious, but it always is, and that's not a reason to scumread him.

[Bulbazak]

I'm seriously considering just going ahead and full claiming since holding back really isn't really accomplishing anything and I don't really have time to respond to everything people are throwing at me, which boils down to "she isn't posting enough."

Don't.

Also why was Vezok booned.

Because Ffery said so. Other than that, I could never get a concise answer.

vezok was booned because he's obvtown

How's he obv. town? I've smashed my head against the wall trying to figure this out and asking people about it, but I've never got a satisfactory answer.

#660. It's the most important post in her entire ISO.

This is really weak reasoning to stubbornly call her town. In fact, from what I've heard, it's pretty easy to say that Empire would never replace into a scum slot, so while it might be used a legitimate reason to townread my slot, the fact that someone does it doesn't mean a whole lot for their alignment. It's null at best. What it does do is make you look worse for putting so much stock in that as to call her town because of it.

It's actually incredibly strong, but I can't go into why. It does prove that he was thinking about the action in a non-scum way.

@TTH...I can actually understand where he's coming from with that because it's practically the same reason I feel that Bulb is attacking me for wanting you to claim. It's "the right way to react." If I were scum, I wouldn't need the claim to justify killing you.

Role fishing is not "the right way to react". What kind of BS are you trying to sell us here?

You are godt tier townreading Shadoweh for her reasoning about Empire and your strongest scum read is the player she reasoned was town.

I never said that her reasoning was correct, just that the way that she arrived at those reasons proved her to be town. I can't go into everything. Nacho might get it. In fact, let me know if he does, because you'll have to be just as vague.

Also, Mollie says that you both had the same mentor. It's not a mindset I agree with, since I keep PRs in mind when I scumhunt, but I can kinda see how you can get there.

[Bulbazak]

I was surprised you took such strong exception to the convo, which is why I suggested you check with mollie.

I'm sorry. I was just really mad that you were refusing to work with or acknowledge me, and that just seemed like more evidence that your method and reads were so incredibly off kilter.

And now Mollie's saying that I can't use what I'm seeing as hard evidence, but I don't care. I think I'm onto something here with Shadoweh.

[Bulbazak]

@Ffery: If you can't explain anything else, can you at least explain the Vezok town read. I've been trusting so much in my townreads that he's town, but I'm not seeing what anyone else is.

[Bulbazak]

@Ffery: Mollie keeps yelling at me to reach out to you when I feel I'm doing exactly that. Something about you feeling marginalized. I figure the best way to reach out is to try asking you about certain reads to see why we differ. I'm sure she feels different and is going to yell at me later for it. I mean, I think I know most of your reads, but a reads list gives me a larger view of the game, and if I know how and why we're differing, maybe I might be able to actually open that line of dialogue that I've felt was so vital.

@Mastin: I don't know if you have or not, but can you walk me through your DeasVail scum read?

[Bulbazak]

@Ffery: Also, the reason why I keep having trouble with the Vezok town read is the way he's been acting in regards to his reads. At first I thought I might have just had a knee jerk response to his reads being so different to mine, but I feel that he keeps ignoring obvious lines of inquiry just to push push push. It's more pushing and less analysis. I also didn't like how he jumped off of TTH, who he was hard scumreading, to jump onto Aronis with me, another of his scum reads. That move didn't make sense to me, as there was no reason or indicator for his move off of TTH. I also didn't like his last attack on me at the end of minor day 1. It felt more like rubbing salt in the wounds and is what I normally equate with scum getting too greedy with a push instead of overzealous town. I mean, I've read Vezok as obv. town before, but I'm just not seeing it here.

P-edit: I've quoted your previous question in the PT. I haven't heard back from her. As far as I recall, she hasn't really given me a read on you. I'll try to see if I can push that through.

[Bulbazak]

have you played with vezok much?

A few times. L4D was where I learned how good his reads could be, mainly based off of what Mastin said in post. I think I played at least two more times with Vezok after that, and I correctly town read him each time. His reads were also pretty good and tended to align with mine, or at least not severely clash with them. Here, I'm having a hard time getting that same feeling, and I don't know if it's just me or if there's really something missing.

@Bulba: Get off your high horse on singer.

Huh?

Think about ArcAngel, greyice and serra.

What about them?

[Bulbazak]

I feel as if this is a reference to Joss Whedon Mafia, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get.

[Bulbazak]

have you played with vezok much?

A few times. L4D was where I learned how good his reads could be, mainly based off of what Mastin said in post. I think I played at least two more times with Vezok after that, and I correctly town read him each time. His reads were also pretty good and tended to align with mine, or at least not severely clash with them. Here, I'm having a hard time getting that same feeling, and I don't know if it's just me or if there's really something missing.

In L4D you correctly identified me as town even though my reads where all over the place.
In Marvel Alliance you town read me and we synced up pretty well.
Organic chemistry had me as confirmed town so that doesn't count.
And you were scum in playing card mafia so there was no way we could sync reads.


I agree that you townread me correctly in L4D and MA.
Our reads only synced up in MA.

I really don't understand why you're trying to push this vezok-scum scenario by using meta.

I had no clue how to read you in L4D. In fact, I think I was even leaning scum, and Mastin talked me into a townread (she was scum, but still). That's how I learned how to read you in all the other games. For Marvel and Organic, it was easy to see town you, and even though you were conf. town by the time I replaced in, a read of the thread made it obvious to me anyhow. As for Playing Card, I mimicked what my read on you would have been as town, because you were playing in the same manner. Just because I was scum does not mean I wasn't trying to approach my fake reads in a similar manner. The fact is that I'm not seeing town you in this game, and I don't know if it's because I'm off in terms of Vezok play, or if there is actually something there.

Here's a question: Why did you abandon TTH, who was your strongest scumread, to jump on the Aronis wagon with me, who was another scumread of yours?

@Ffery: How is Vezok's behavior matching with his town meta, particularly that last part I brought up?

@Mastin: I don't know if you have or not, but can you walk me through your DeasVail scum read?

Aside from TTH's rock-solid reasons?

This is Tales-DV. A DV who is doing his damnedest to look like his town self and has successfully done so in the eyes of most major players, but who is still visibly manipulating things to me. His thoughts simply do not look organic. At all. They're meant to look good. They aren't ACTUALLY good.

I didn't play in Tales, and I have no interest in reading it. Please be a bit more specific.

@GIF: Short version: The way she treated Empire's replace in does not come from scum. She examined it from a point of trying to figure out the game, which comes from town.

Ok, the thing is that I probably wouldn't be so concerned about her if it weren't for the way she treated Empire's replace-in. Her stances on the slot have all felt kind of wrong to me, with her wanting to lynch Zar, getting very hands-off when it came to Empire and not seeming to want him lynched, and then when singer replaced in BAM! suddenly the slot is lynchable again! It seems to me a lot like scum changing their read based on how lynchable the person representing it is (singer and zar being a lot more lynchable than Empire imo) rather than a natural progression of read from town. I know you're saying you have reason beyond this to consider her town, but I wouldn't be opposed to you convincing me I'm wrong here.

It's not going to happen, at least not in connection with that quote.

I really liked his early game, and whenever he posts, I still get the same sort of warm fuzzies. I just have a hard time seeing that sort of thought process coming from scum. His activity is atrocious, but it always is, and that's not a reason to scumread him.

This is weird coming from you considering your criticism of me for something similar.

Why? AD didn't try to buddy me, so I'm not seeing the similarities.

I do think Singer is town and wonder why so many people think otherwise given Empire and Singer's posts.

Did you even read the Singer/Gamma back and forth? Singer was dancing all over the place and avoiding a very simple question. There was way too much double speak there to be coming from town.

@Bulba: Can you link me your singer-case again? I don't see how singer has a scum-mindset.

I don't think I ever made a singer case per se. I can try putting together the reasons why I think she's scum, but it'll probably be tomorrow at the earliest. I just can't see how you think she's town after her avoidance of Gamma.

ika says titus is being too obscure for him to figure out. Also he says if we told you we would have to kill you
Also ika wants you to tell him why you think titus is town.

Didn't Ika have a Titus townread?

[Bulbazak]

Forgot about this:

Still waiting on mollie's thoughts about me.

I've been letting Mollie deal with her own stuff for a bit. I'll try bothering her again tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

@Singer: I relayed your questions to her, but she hasn't responded yet. Most of her focus seemed to be getting me to reach out to Ffery. Other than that, she's been a bit preoccupied with another matter. I've been giving her some breathing room to sort her crap out.

[Bulbazak]

Not going to be too long, because need sleep.

atm i'd probably go cheetory+shadoweh+actiondan.

Nope. Try again. Also, what happened to your scumread on me?

Ok assuming that we lynch to timeline. What do you even think is going to change for the second lynch. More apathy. That is all you're going to get. Tbh I think this is one of those situations where the forced compromise lynch at deadline is going to create much more useful information than anything else.

If you think that you are going to get a thought out second lynch for today then you are on some pretty hard stuff. $10 says if I get lynched quickly here that one of the flops on to me will get lynched and there are too many of thse for them all to be scum so the logic is flawed to begin with.

You know what's going to change about the second lynch? We'll be more informed. That's why the first lynch needs to be on a controversial read or a player with a lot of associatives. That way we have information to be used to determine the second lynch. A forced second lynch is the worst thing we can have right about now. And no, we will not have apathy, because people will actually have some more things to sink their teeth into. However, if we go for a low information first lynch, then yeah, there will be apathy. If you want to lynch a lurker, wait for lynch #2. We need a high information lynch, and we need it now. An arbitrary deadline is just what the doctor ordered. It's not scummy, and I don't know how it ever entered into your mind that it was. It's perhaps one of the most pro-town things in the thread right now.

On to page 110.

[Bulbazak]

Earlygame Zar was a little scummy, but his exit felt pretty town to me.

Really? Because I thought the switch was pretty scummy.

People should tell me what they think of Titus/Espeonage scumteam doing bullshit fighting stuff for distancing.

I think that anyone thinking that is high.

I think the fact that he's saying that she's lying about Bulba's meta is wayyyyyyyy too strong for someone who's only just started reading the game. The level of confidence that she's lying vs asking her why she has a different perception of Bulba's meta strikes me as distancing rather than someone trying to sort someone. There's also the use of the word 'lying' seems like more of a sheep of TSO saying there's a discrepancy in Titus's posting. It's even worse because there's no vote and he later starts nakedly townreading her with almost no significant interactions in between

I can see where you're coming from in regards to Esp, but trying to use Esp's phrasing to throw shade on Titus is stretching things. Esp accusing Titus of lying reminds me of Paschendale, who tends to accuse people of lying a lot when he's scum. Lying is a very strong word in mafia circles, and it's meant to elicit a negative reaction from onlookers, i.e. manipulation. In other words, I'm seeing less an Esp/Titus team and more Esp trying to buddy up to TSO and throw suspicion in Titus's direction.

Espeonage's lame Titus vote looks lazy as hell and like he doesn't actually have anything behind it.

Okay. Again, how does that make them a team?

ii) Espeonage claiming his detect on me could really easily come from a scumPOV. To put it simply, Espeonage knows that he's sketchy and people are suspicious of him. If someone traces him to me and he's unclaimed, then he's in fucking hot water. If he derpclaims it then no pressure anymore. I really don't trust that town Espeonage would claim his detect unless he was worried about himself. That mindset just seems more likely to come from scum who understands the situation he's in.

Explain, because I'm not sure I follow.

iii) Titus constantly calling ika town and all of the codestuff feels like she's trying to stay on ika's good side. I think she's paranoid of him and is trying to buddy up to him to try and keep him off her case.

Ika also gave a Titus townread earlier in the game. It makes sense that Titus would reach out and try to work with him.

Titus started trying to discredit Tammy the moment that she left the game. Looked and felt slimy.

Where did this happen? Quotes please.

Espeonage ignoring Tammy's reasoning for why he should be listening to ffery over mollie for a read on her looks and feels slimy.

Agreed.

Titus's reasons for scumreading TSO were bullshit.

How so?

I think there's maybe one scum on Singer (UT), possible up to three on AD given the speed of his wagon and scum possibly capitalizing on quicklynch desires and a couple possible on Espy...(yes I know that's too many scum).

you can't possibly know this kind of thing right now. this is bullshit disguised as analysis.

This feels like scum overreaching.

he's solidly in the gestalt consensus that singer is town. he sees scumhunting from them and a lot of effort to get people to listen to their opinions. he points up 2356 and 2364 as good examples. And he thought Empire looked good prior to his replace out.

Actually, those are two examples of why I think Singer is scum. Both of those cases contained stale and unoriginal reasoning. There was actually zero effort or scumhunting there.

Basically this is kind of shitty because mastin can't articulate why singer is scum.

Before I go any further on this, do you actually have any experience playing with Mastin?

I seriously don't get why people are townreading Titus atm.

She's approaching this game from a town mindset. She's trying to understand other people's thoughts and motivations, and she's trying to work with her townreads. If you take the time, you can see her engaging with the game and trying to figure it out, where as scum, she'd be a lot more pushy. I've played with Titus as both alignments. This is her town game.

Also have been ignoring everything I've been saying about you. Are you hoping you can coast to end cycle so you can off me during night cycle with Esp's detect results?

I really don't like this post.

* Concerned about Oversoul/Tammy because why would Tammy replace out over Esp but not Zar? And why is Oversoul trying to start out with completely fresh reads instead of taking into account Tammy's?

Your team knows full well why Tammy switched games. This concern is fake.

Mollie gave a town read on Gamma, but she says she's having a hard time reading Singer.

@Ffery: I'm going to have time to finish this up tomorrow. I have a quick case on Singer I'm going to drop then. Afterwards, I want to try to work with you on reads as much as I possibly can. I feel tomorrow is our best shot of not overshooting each other. If you have any questions or concerns, leave them in the thread, and I'll get to them as soon as I can.

On to page 120.

[Bulbazak]

@Oversoul...you can "nip it in the butt" all you want, but you haven't really addressed our concerns. I never said I thought you were scum; I just wanted answers to questions that cast any doubt on our townread of your slot.

Speaking of which, Bulb and TTH are both in prod range? This isn't promising for getting a second lynch in time...

Was there a point to this, or were you just trying to look useful?

I've liked singer's posting. Seem to be driven to helping town recently.

In what world is she trying to help town?

Dude, you didn't meet me when I was in NC. Spiderwoman is actually pretty close to my build.

I was told those type of proportions were unrealistic. I'm still trying to work out how she hasn't gone in debt from chiropractor bills.

I've actually played more f2f games with Singer than mafia games which is interesting because mafia games in face to face I suck at as it's all emotion and reading people.

I suck at f2f/skype games for a different reason.

It's not that I want to lynch blindly, but we also should've thought about the possibility of claiming before we got to this point, as it'd be really easy for scum whose lynch is inevitable to just claim any goddamn thing and live longer, creating a scramble and another flash wagon that will give us even less information.

I really want to know how you thought this was a good idea and for you to try to convince me it came from town.

2. What? Why are you concerned about Tammy and I switching? Indulge me for a bit, because it is about to get super self-metay.
Tammy and Oversoul both hate playing scum.
Tammy and Oversoul both spent tokens trying to get town.
Tammy and Oversoul both like playing town.
They like playing town because there is less stress and more freedom.
Tammy and Oversoul would *never* willingly jump into a slot that they *know* is scum.
It was almost a trust tell back when I still played a lot that I would never take a role I knew was scum.

But those aren't the only reasons why this concern is poor form coming from your team, Singer.
Why would Tammy chose to replace out against Espeonage *rather* than Zar? Someone who actually knows her scum game? And someone who has played extensively with Tammy? That makes no sense. Tammy replaced out because Tammy felt that Espeonage had a weird fixation on her, to the point that he would comment on almost every single post that Tammy made. Tammy didn't want to derail the game with that nonsense, so she asked if she could switch. I agreed because I was the most caught up with this game (lol still 60 pages behind) and I thought it would be fun.



So far the fun aspect has yet to show.
Your entire team should *know* how Tammy operates seeing as how often they play with her.

Just look at the situation from Tammy's perspective
- Zar is a scum read
- Zar is not hounding Tammy every post
- Zar is not purposefully misinterpreting posts trying to goad Tammy into a fight
- Tammy was mad at Empire for comments he made, yet still didn't feel personal. Your question/concern is skeevy, but I'm willing to chalk it up to paranoia that always rears its ugly head.

ALL of these things are opposites with Espeonage.

Tammy also says that you should not compare your scum game to Tammy's scum game since she feels that you two play very differently. She says she wouldn't be "worried" about fucking up and that Mina/Zar/Regfan should know that.

And last but not least, why the hell would Tammy switch out of a game where she almost universally town read?

Should send you all to Qyburn to realign your scumdars.

I really want to know how you still reached a town read on Singer after this, because all the town in 11 players should have quick lynched her for this.

VOTE: Vezok

TSO was willing to make sure no PR got the boon to stop Vezok from getting it. I want to know why.

Because this is TSO and he's hardheaded and tunnely and stuff?

I don't know he is. I am wanting to get some pressure on him and re-evaluate. Someone feeling that strongly should be looked at. It's the exact thing I'd want in his place.

And why did this have to be via wagon and not PR?

Overall, my assessment of mastin's activity so far has been to promote a scum agenda. The "townbloc" that she was sure to hammer on early is nothing short of catastrophically dysfunctional, but that doesn't seem to bother her much. The push on singer's slot has never been

that

great and the TSO vote was completely phoned in and bad. All the while, the reads like Marquis and DV who

I

would have been willing to work with mastin on languished.

First, I want to know how Titus, Mastin, and I have been dysfunctional, because we all seem to be on the same page for the most part. Second, your "case" against Mastin seems to ignore context and flow, which should allow you to see where she was coming from with the degree of some of her pushes. Everything is very clear if you look at it from that perspective, and her thought process couldn't be more transparent.

Titus moon-logic is still the same.

So is this Town-Titus moon logic, or Scum-Titus moon logic? Please be sure to explain your answer. This will count towards your final grade.

But whatever. I know Nacho is pushing this. It's becoming a sitewide thing where Nacho is fucking lynching me in every game we play and he's always wrong.

This really seems like scumposting.

To be fair, I've been there. Nacho did the same thing to me after Maniacal.

This is more or less how I feel right now and her claiming a detect doesn't feel like it's coming from a townPOV

Explain to me how it's scum motivated.

Btw Cheet, if you really want to die I can tell everyone your sign.

I actually think this makes Esp more likely to be town.

for scum my pool is singer, titus, mastin, gun to my head mayyyyyyyyyyybe oversoul but that'd take some work

I disagree with all of these except Singer.

On that note, if it comes out scum have daytalk I would find it hard to believe that fishy is scum.

I'm really not sure how to feel about this one.

I really don't like this post.

Titus ignored my case on her.
Titus ignored my response to her case on singer.
I was getting pissed off and made a snarky response.
Apparently people love tossing shit suspicion at me for showing emotion. Woo.

It seemed like an unnecessary attack and looked more like scum overreaching.

Explain, because I'm not sure I follow.

If Esp gets traced to me without derpclaiming == he looks even worse than TTH did because he can't softclaim anything to defend against it because he's already claimed VT.

Nope. Still don't get it. Traces happen during the minor nights, so I'm not seeing how Esp being traced would put him in any danger.

She's approaching this game from a town mindset. She's trying to understand other people's thoughts and motivations, and she's trying to work with her townreads. If you take the time, you can see her engaging with the game and trying to figure it out, where as scum, she'd be a lot more pushy. I've played with Titus as both alignments. This is her town game.

Her town game is passive? Really?

Compare Organic Chemistry (Town) to Unbalanced 2 (Scum). This is Titus's town game.

Before I go any further on this, do you actually have any experience playing with Mastin?

Yes I fucking get that mastin always plays like this. It's shitty because I have no idea where she's coming from.

Then given your experience with Mastin, her inability to explain a read shouldn't mean it should automatically be discounted. Your attack on the Singer wagon for this reason, therefore, doesn't make any sense.

How so?

@TitusTSOthings, Titus was like "oh man TSO is town because he's angry about things" and then all of a sudden TSO being angry about things was scummy.

Was there a bit of context you missed, or perhaps a difference in the type of anger she pointed out?

Ika also gave a Titus townread earlier in the game. It makes sense that Titus would reach out and try to work with him.

Number of times Titus has been stating that ika is obvtown via proxy is disproportionate and feels unreasonable. It feels like buddying to me.

I actually think Ika townreading her is way stranger. If you were to look at possible buddying, it should be from Ika, not from Titus. I take the fact they've connected and are trying to work together very promising.

Where did this happen? Quotes please.

The fact you might be switching with Oversoul doesn't look good to me as I have difficulties reading him (Dr. Who I tunnelled him bad, and only cleared him in InuYasha due to VCA) and you are supposed to be obvtown if town. I do not mean this as a threat but telling you how I will perceive it and I doubt I am the only one who would be bothered. Would you be lynched on this alone? No but it does get my paranoia juices flowing.

And yet when Esp does it it's obvscum, right?

The timing of Esp's suspicions were off. He did so right after Mollie called Tammy scum, essentially piggybacking off of that. His attack was opportunistic. Was anyone else casting suspicion at Tammy during that time for those reasons? No, so Titus is not in the same boat, and her paranoia is a little bit more in line from what I'd expect coming from the type of player Titus is. She's way too fast to draw connections, even when there are none, and it naturally makes her paranoid. I actually take that paranoia as a good sign.

I think that anyone thinking that is high.

I think many things about you right now. None of which I can say because of hito's censor on this game
I put a lot of effort into ISOdiving Esp/Titus and for you to sneeze at me and call me a high idiot like this is fucking insulting.

Why did you comment on this, and not the reasons I outlined as to why I disagreed with this theory?

Sorry about not being on yesterday. Several things came up that I had to deal with (But at least I got Wisdom out of it. ). I'm going to push through this tonight to make sure I can say everything I want to.

Also, this Titus wagon is freaking scummy, and someone should take a real hard look at it. Mastin, Titus, this is a Shos-wagon level statement.

On to page 136.

[Bulbazak]

Voting someone because another unflipped scumread of yours doesn't want them lynched is pretttty awful titus.

Awful? Yes. Scummy? No. I think a lot of people are trying to push this wagon on awful rather than scummy, and I just have to wonder at the timing of it.

Also Titus is probably scum. Aronis seems like a mislynch like TSO was and both TTH and titus jumped on him while UT is on titus.

Your posts seem to be getting progressively worse, and I'm not sure how to feel about that.

The only people that we should be discussing for lynch are ActionDan, Espeonage, Singersigner, Titus, and Untrod Tripod.

Eh..., possibly, YES, NO, torn on this one

@Oversoul, how am I approaching negative utlity?

The sheer quantity of your posts is enough to drown town driven thought. It creates confusion and a smokescreen that the scum are better able to hide in. I don't mean to be offensive, but the content quality of your posts is not enough to offset the benefits given to scum.

pedit:

People went after TSO because he was an easy lynch. He was not really connected with the game and that made him vulnerable and an easy target. Plus, I think he was in the out-group. No one wants to lynch their friends on the first day. It is a subconcious action that seems to generally hold true, at least across the games I have played/observed. I don't think TSO had many friends in this game.

Aronis is in a similar position. I think Aronis is also in the out-group. I think Aronis is also disconnected from the game and that makes him a vulnerable/easy target. The information gained based on Aronis's interactions is negligible, just like the information gained from TSO's interactions was negligible. They both did not have connections because they were disconnected from the game. I think both TSO and Aronis are students and a lot of people seem to be forgetting that right now is finals season for American education.

Fferylt also endorsed the TSO wagon with a lot of force, so Fferylt supporting this wagon is not exactly the biggest vote of confidence. I actually really disagree with Fferylt on a lot of her reads/positions this game. I also think that she is doing a poor job of leading this town. I fear we are headed into a dark tunnel with no escape as long as Fferylt is at the helm. I think this is a function of the fact that Fferylt is an IC right now, which tends to skew perceptions of not only the IC itself, but also the other people in the game. No one really is trying to critically discuss the game with Fferylt so when shitty ideas like the TSO wagon are proposed no one is around to say "No, that is actually a shitty idea".

I actually find it disconcerting that we do not have much more interaction from Fferylt's teammates about this game given the fact that they are ALL DEAD. I would expect they would want to funnel all of their thoughts into the game through her given her confirmed town status. But that is a topic for another time. I know I have been neglecting my own teammates' games.

Mollie wants to marry this post.

We are NOT going to waste our second lynch on another person like TSO. This means that Aronis is off the table for lynch today.
The only people that we should be discussing for lynch are ActionDan, Espeonage, Singersigner, Titus, and Untrod Tripod.

"We're only lynching between these people because

I'm

scumreading them."
Titus, and now you?

Excuse me, this goes out to everyone in this game: Who the fuck do you people think you are?

That is really not what he said. Are you even reading this game, because everything you've posted lately seems to point to you not doing so.

Well my Bulba read hasn't really changed at all because he hasn't posted that much recently. [and if he did, titus probably drowned it out]

What does that have to do with anything? When was the last time you revisited that read? Was it at any time during the major day?

Sure, some are trying to form a townbloc but they are doing it with the wrong players and for the wrong reasons.

Who are the right players, and what are the right reasons?

well yeah, oversoul is just bullshitting and trying to get in good with titus and ffery for some stupid reason

I have a problem with just about everything in this sentence. It seems like a low blow and meant solely to discredit. Having a hard time seeing the town motivation here.

(10) T S O: Titus, Untrod Tripod, Gammagooey, singersigner, mastin2, vezokpiraka, Cheetory6, ActionDan, GuyInFreezer, ChannelDelibird [Lynch!]

We've gone back and forth about you. Also about CDB. Of the players on the TSO wagon, we can't see most of them as remotely scum.

There are 5 votes on that wagon that I really don't like. I know they're not all scum, but surely you can see the problem with you not seeing any of them being "remotely scum". Heck, simple VCA theory should tell you to reset.

titus votes are terrible.

I want to trust Nacho I really do but sometimes he can be wrong and Titus trued to appeal to by emotion and I'm so sad over it so can you see my point of view?

How is asking you questions appealing to your emotion?

So most of this hinges on me being scum with CDB? And the fact that CDB didn't give straight up reads? Either you're just not trying and failing at being town or you are scum grasping for reasons. I think you're scum.

That is so far from what she said that I'm starting to wonder if you're doing this on purpose.

I pointed out that people were in prod range because like Oversoul already stated, Titus is/was reaching negative utility at this point, and people were falling behind, being absent, etc. I've been very vocal about my disappointment in such. But now that you bring it up again, it's particularly interesting because Titus claimed to need a wagon on TTH to bring her back and engaged in the game, yet no mention when she went missing again. Another example of where I think Titus is just talking out of her ass.

I think the time of day also has a lot to do with it. When she voted TTH for pressure, we only had minor day information and no pressure based on lynch wagons. Now that's not the case, and there's a lot more to go off of. Also, we're near deadline, and she's townreading TTH. Why in the heck would she pressure vote TTH at this point?

With regards to the claiming issue: did you not want two lynches? I prioritized accordingly. I felt as though at the very least, a town PR would make it a priority to claim so close to losing the opportunity of another lynch that without it, it didn't seem like we were missing anything because she was either VT or scum.

I had a problem with your suggestion that we line up both lynches at once. This ignored the obvious utility of lynch 1 in giving information to select lynch 2. Your solution, though, was to limit information, select both lynches at once, and lynch in succession. I'm having a hard time seeing the town motivation in that.

What about the Titus wagon is scummy? You don't have to say because I'm on it; I think that's implied by your read of me. I am but one person, so I'd like to know exactly what/who you have a problem with?

It sprung up quickly based off the idea of "I don't understand Titus, and that annoys me" and ran counter to yours, essentially defusing it. There's nothing about the way that wagon built up that sits right with me.

@Cheetory: I think your premise is flawed, and that you're taking that premise, forming a conclusion, and then working backwards and fitting everything towards that conclusion. First off, do you really think Titus is leader material? Titus can barely get people to pay attention to her at best of times, shouting at them in Team Mafia is not going to do much. In that regard, finding town and focusing on team building is a very sound and pro-town strategy. Scum will be wanting to tear apart, not put together, and regardless of what you might think, finding other town is going to be key to winning the game. And that's not to say that Titus isn't scumhunting. She's been very clear about who she finds scummy and who she thinks is town, and she's questioned several players to understand them better. Sure she's not super pushing her scumreads, but we're close to deadline, and she's focusing on working with other town and securing a lynch that everyone can agree on. I'm not really seeing what's scummy here.

I have no self-control. -.-

Explain to me how it's scum motivated.

Why does townTitus detect? Why does townTitus detect and casually claim? Think about it. If you still don't get it, think about it some more.

Just because you chose to detect during the minor night doesn't mean that you're scum. There's actually several pro-town reasons to do so. Heck, I detected during the night, and I'm not scum. And Titus detecting TSO, who she was scumreading, is not scummy either, no matter how much you try to tell us it is.

Nope. Still don't get it. Traces happen during the minor nights, so I'm not seeing how Esp being traced would put him in any danger.

I'm considered a townread by some people in this game [and before you start screaming and shouting about how I'm not, go away kthx]. If Espeonage gets traced to me on Minor Day 2 then he looks like scum, much in the same manner TTH was put under scrutiny for. If you can't understand that, then I honestly don't understand what more to say to you. Claiming his action now in a harmless "I don't know what I'm doing" manner makes him look like VI instead of scum.

Okay, I think I'm starting to see what the problem is. You're locked in this false conclusion that only scum have a reason to try to figure out other players' signs. Ergo, scum will only detect and town will only trace. That's wrong, and you need to get that out of your system right now. On the bright side, I think this makes you extremely likely to be town, although extremely misguided and seeing the game through the wrong lens.

I actually think Ika townreading her is way stranger. If you were to look at possible buddying, it should be from Ika, not from Titus. I take the fact they've connected and are trying to work together very promising.

ika isn't townreading her?

Look again. Most of those posts have been GiF.

The timing of Esp's suspicions were off. He did so right after Mollie called Tammy scum, essentially piggybacking off of that. His attack was opportunistic. Was anyone else casting suspicion at Tammy during that time for those reasons? No, so Titus is not in the same boat, and her paranoia is a little bit more in line from what I'd expect coming from the type of player Titus is. She's way too fast to draw connections, even when there are none, and it naturally makes her paranoid. I actually take that paranoia as a good sign.

Except this wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about people taking potshots at Tammy for replacing.

You asked me what was different between Titus's suspicion of Tammy and Esp's. I told you. Don't go changing the goal posts on me now.

Fuck this game.
UNVOTE:
If CDB flips town I hope we all get to throw a party at the uselessness of all of the nothing we'll have to analyze D2 because of all the people just blanksheeping ffery.

Until you unvoted, Titus's wagon was leading. You going woe is me concerning the CDB wagon and not getting your way doesn't hold as much weight here.

(6)

Titus:

Espeonage, Cheetory6, GuyInFreezer, vezokpiraka, Aronis, singersigner [L-4]

Just going to reiterate how bad the composition of this wagon is. Someone will definitely want to revisit this d2. I'm thinking there's 2 scum here.

@Ffery: Too tired to do more concerning my Singer read, but suffice to say I didn't like Zar's reaction to Tammy. I felt the switch was heavily scum motivated, unlike the others we've seen (also pay attention that nothing was said about Empire, but the TTH switch, which happened at the same time was heavily criticized.). This is the game that is weighted the most, and is therefore the one that teams want to make sure they win. If Zar was town, there would not be the same amount of urgency, but if he was scum and was failing, he would need a massive bail out. In comes Empire, and while I admit his reads list is good, he never really follows up on it or pushes it hard. In fact, I remember him being on the sidelines when it came down to the bane. Also note that my bane wagon was his counter wagon, and even though he was most agreed on to be baned, my wagon sprung up as the "only choice" rather quickly and with no explanation. Empire's replace out was null. Singer's play here has been lackluster. I see her posts being very wordy but with minimal content. Her reads are extremely basic, and her cases are nothing new or spectacular. Her primary focus was on lynching TTH for "information", even though there were other lynches that could have done the same. Watch as she never drops the read, but keeps adding BS reasoning to it, which again, was nothing new and had already been refuted. Her final reason was to force a claim, aka rolefishing, as she seemed focused more on finding out TTH's role, rather than alignment. Her early fight with Titus was useless, as she really avoided giving a stance on her. It was mainly noise meant to make her look busy. And wouldn't you know, by the time she actually got a read, Titus was being poked more and more. Finally, she plants a vote, but only when a wagon takes off, relieving the pressure from her. Take a good look at her case, Ffery. It's garbage. She's stretching for her points, and you know it. Also note how Singer reacted to Gamma when he asked her to give a read on him. Now, if she was town and thought it was a trap, or something of the sort, I'd expect her to straight up refuse, or say "screw you", but she doesn't. Instead, she dances around the question, refusing to be locked into a read, because if she is, she will be held accountable to that read and progression later. That's not a town thought process, and you freaking know it. Finally, she throws suspicion at Oversoul for Tammy's switch. You should know why that's scummy, Ffery. Your team was in that game, as was mine and Regfan. You know the story there. Regfan knows the story there. And you think for one minute he'd really be suspicious of the slot knowing that if he was town? Heck no! That was fake, Ffery. It was a feeler meant to see if they could tear down Oversoul's obv. town status. I'm actually baffled that more people didn't pile on top of that, but I guess it pays to be oblivious. And that's just what I can think of with a sleep-addled brain. So tell me, Ffery, why the crap are you town reading her?

Vote ChannelDelibird

Balls in your court.

@Mod

: I'm going out of town and will be V/LA until April 27.

[Bulbazak]

Why the crap would you bane TTH?

[Bulbazak]

Because she's supposed to be conftown now and I want to know why.

If TTH is confirmed town, then it will happen before the end of the Minor Day, in one form or another. If it doesn't happen, then we lynch her. If she is confirmed town, then you don't want to bane her anyway. Either way, baning TTH is the worst possible decision.

Given what I just read in GiF's ISO, a bane on Esp, Aronis, or AD would be best. If we're choosing to lock, then Esp is probably the preferable bane choice anyway.

[Bulbazak]

Why would the choice make a difference of who to bane?

Because if we choose locked, then any VTs will likely be VTs forever. This makes Esp a safe bane, as if he's town, nothing happens, and if he's scum, he can't use night actions. If we choose to unlock, then a random VT becomes a PR, and that makes baning Esp a little more risky.

Why would TTH's confirmed towniness happen before the end of the Minor Day?

Because she'll either be confirmed by the mod or another player. Either way, it's most likely to happen before the end of the minor day. Unless you're planning on ending the day before everyone chimes in...

[Bulbazak]

You're right. I missed what Duplicate did when I was skimming back over the opening posts (I actually missed it entirely.).

Vote Lock

@Titus: I'd prefer to not bane Singer. I agree with CDB that banes need to be on those that we don't prefer to lynch the next major day. That's why I think Esp is preferable. It'd also allow us more time to sort him.

Bane Espeonage

[Bulbazak]

Oh look! Scum wants to know how to kill me!

I doubt that taking away your night actions would kill you.

I missed what Duplicate did when I was skimming back over the opening posts

*twitch*
bulbapls.

It was a very quick skim.

Bulba, indeed. Ffery has asked us not to lynch Singer. Baning her gives her a day to recalibrate and Ffery doesn't roll over in her grave. If Singer is town, I would like her to reset. If Singer is town, with her reads, she'd likely hurt more than help.

Singer is my strongest scum read, and I don't care what Ffery thinks in this regard. She's wrong, and I'm not going to play patty cake with scum in the meanwhile.

[Bulbazak]

@Cheetory: While I do like the idea of being quick, I'd also like to avoid baning someone before everyone checks in. Something might be said that could make us change our minds.

[Bulbazak]

@Aronis: And you have?

[Bulbazak]

Actually, Titus has some pretty clear reads.

[Bulbazak]

Clear reads as in I know where she stands on certain players regardless of what Ffery thinks. Compromising and working with players does not mean that you don't have reads of your own. I think it's pretty obvious who Titus thinks is town and scum.

[Bulbazak]

GiF thought his role meant doctor.

Where did he say anything like this, because I don't remember it?

[Bulbazak]

Clear reads as in I know where she stands on certain players regardless of what Ffery thinks. Compromising and working with players does not mean that you don't have reads of your own. I think it's pretty obvious who Titus thinks is town and scum.

She's not compromising though, falling over backwards to accommodate ffery would be more accurate.

I don't think that's the case at all. Titus was trying to get Ffery and Mastin to work together, but she's never wavered in her reads and actually pushed them very hard. You're oversimplifying Titus's play with a slant to the negative if all you're looking at are actions that took place near the deadline.

[Bulbazak]

She dropped her read/pressure on my slot pretty hard after hearing Ffery had never been wrong about Empire before.

Ffery was also asking that we give her a day and not lynch you. I suspect that had a lot to do with it.

@Gamma: Why are you baning Mastin?

[Bulbazak]

@Gamma: Why do you think she's more likely to be scum?

[Bulbazak]

I've been prodded. Sorry been a little busy. I'll get to this Sunday, I swear.

[Bulbazak]

Screw this. I'm just going to catch up during the night. Short as possible: Why should I boon CDB?

[Bulbazak]

Top of page made me look back over Mastin. She's a doctor, strong town, and I definitely trust her a heck of a lot more than Channel, hitchikes on every major wagon, Delibird.

Boon Mastin2

[Bulbazak]

Mastin should get more votes. I'll give clearer thoughts on everything at the start of the major day, but for now, sleep.

[Bulbazak]

vezok is also basically the most obvious town in the game.

Going to have to disagree with you there.

Ok Lynching UT is dumb right now. It's a waste of our mechanics.
Lynch on me is dumb because we should at least pretend to still care about ffery and that Titus is pushing for it.

Lynch on Titus will get rid of a scum. Thus that is a great lynch.

Vote: Titus

This really makes me want to lynch Esp.

*He's a ghost in the vote counts.

Paying attention to activity and who I was pushing is key. I was not around for the TSO push, the second deadline lynch, or either of the minor day lynches (although I did have a bane vote on Esp that was never counted). I can't say that you would have seen a major difference, but my vote would have been out of the "not voting" pool a lot more often.

*The quote-stripe catchup mode the posts are always in is a pretty easy format for scum to look participative while not actually doing anything, which is actually what make up the bulk of his posts.

It's something I tend to do when catching up, and since I seem to be in perpetual catch up, you're going to see a lot of them. That doesn't mean that you should ignore what I have to say in there. The style of posting is not alignment indicative. The content is.

*Mollie's contributions are pretty shallow and don't come off as particularly genuine.

I haven't really forwarded a lot of Mollie's thoughts, so I'm having a hard time seeing where you're coming from here. When I have, I've paraphrased them as best I can. Admittedly, she's not paying super attention here, just a glance now and then, but I wouldn't call her observations shallow. If you want to make more of a case here, quotes would be nice.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba,

We should totally revisit the findings in 1753/1765. Perhaps we should be pushing Aronis here?

Mastin wanted me to compare my wagon with TSO's. I'm thinking of throwing Mastin's in the mix as well and seeing what jumps out.

He tries to force Vezok to take a stand on me and provides the context he thinks your read lacks.

Which, looking back, he never addressed.

@Bulba, do me a favor and have Mollie get a lot of thoughts together, then bring them out. I'm not exactly wanting to deal with her in mafia games right now.

I'm trying to get Mollie to explain some of her reads right now, but the general thought process seems to be that she doesn't want me relying on her reads over mine. She also didn't like it when I said that she was only glancing at the game.

Also, can you explain how you

know

there's a roleblocker in the game. I may disagree with Singer on pretty much everything, but that was a very good question that you never answered.

P-edit: Oh lookee, scum is scared.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba, I answered it like 50 times. :/ The mods aren't going to make a game breakable by follow the cop.

Okay. That would add up to a suspicion of the existence of a roleblocker, but you're saying that you know for 100% certainty that there's a roleblocker. That still doesn't add up.

Regardless, I'm seeing your thought process.

Townbloc:
Vezok
Gamma
Cheetory
TTH
CDB


Almost townbloc:
Singer
Titus

Kick Vezok and Cheetory out of the block, and stop considering Singer. At that point, you're on the right track.

His read on Bulba from his iso seems to be organically made in so far as the suspicion has mounted over the course of several days. Trace on TTH was pretty town too.

Try again. That vote on me happened when attention started to shift my way again. If it wasn't for that, Vezok would probably be sitting on DV or Titus.

I think his Bulba read stems from Bulba's interactions. Still not entirely sure. But the common strand of suspecting Bulba is clearly present in Vezok's posts.

What interactions? Go look at his posts in context. He only posts about me when I'm under some form of mass suspicion. Other than that, he ignores what I say.

Espeonage is scum for what happened yesterday at the end of the day. You're scum for playing antitown and don't even get me started about your mindless sheeping of ffery.

What happened at the end of the day? Why is antitown indicative of scum? You've been playing long enough to know better. Also, why do you think only scum would sheep Ffery and not town? I'm actually feeling really bad about an Esp wagon just looking at this garbage.

Am I the only one who sits down and thinks about the actions of both town and scum to determine the most objective action? :S

You are the only one who doesn't apply occam's razor.

Why in the name of whatever you curse at would I come forth as scum saying I traced someone who is confirmed town? Do you think I have a death wish as scum?

But TTH wasn't conf. town at the time?

And...didn't you claim to have detected on minor night one? Occam's razor says you're scum.

Occam's razor says something else as well. Also, this is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I think doing exactly the opposite of what mastin says and does is correct play.

Okay. Let's lynch Vezok.

Scum killing anyone gives the town information and the information I'm getting is that you knew GiF was the doctor and made it a priority to kill him.

Wouldn't scum know better than to out their suspicions about a PR after the kill? Titus may be a lot of things, but she's not that dumb as scum.

Beating the "you're scared of specials" and "you're not really pushing me" drums are not likely to change that either.

Hint: This is not a town line of attack.

Titus reminds me of mollie.

Singer reminds me of Nacho-scum.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, going to post some general thoughts here before I get distracted again.

CDB saying that I didn't have a reason to vote him in Major Day 1 is wrong. I had made it clear earlier in the day that I did not like his voting pattern, and that I felt it was likely he was scum because of it. Just because I dropped the vote did not mean I dropped the case. However, his interaction with Cheetory Minor Day 2 highly points to town, and I'm having a hard time seeing the scum intent here.

Speaking of Cheetory, I'm not sure how I feel about him. A lot of his pushes and reasoning seems off, but then there will be moments where I see his thought process at work, and it is not one of a player who knows the alignments of all the players in the game. It looks really genuine, but again, I really have a problem with a lot of the pushes that he makes. This is really a read that my entire team is having trouble on, so I'm putting it on the backburner for now.

Moment of truth: My reason for conf. townreading Shadoweh imploded Major Night 1 with GreyICE flipping town in the Nightless. It looked like she had inadvertently slipped about knowing Empire's alignment in that game, which would have pointed to GreyICE as scum. I also realized that her saying that she doubted that Empire would switch from a town slot to a scum slot revealed evidence of her not knowing Zar's alignment in this game, ergo town. Given the GreyICE flip, the first and primary part of that theory was wrong (remember when I said Mollie was telling me my reason was stupid?). Second part is still sound, but a bit weakened. I do like her approach to this game overall, and I still have her as a town read, but it's no longer god-tier.

I've also decided that differing opinions from all my townreads are not enough to put Vezok in the town pile like I did Major Day 1. He's back in my scum pile, because even though everyone is shouting me down, there is something fundamentally wrong with his play, and while I can't pinpoint it, I just know that he's not town.

TTH may be conf. town, but her reads suck. I'll be happy to spar with her if she can withstand my spotty posting schedule.

I liked what I saw from Formerfish on Minor Day 2. He goes in my town pile.

Singer is still scum.

Did I miss anyone? No. Okay. Next up(ish): VCs!

P-edit: That's a pretty poor excuse for refusing to budge on a read given a logical argument. With that reasoning, we should ignore everything everyone does, because they could just as easily do it as scum. Just because you can do something as scum doesn't mean that you will or that you should.

UT is scum that is neutered for the day. AD and DV are town.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, why do you dislike those three people?

As I said in my previous post, there's something really off about Vezok. Call it gut, call it whatever, but I'm really not seeing a town thought process from him and every fiber of my being is telling me that he's scum here. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm still not seeing it. Cheetory is due to the fact that I'm having a hard time sorting him. I'm not saying he's scum, but I don't think he's town bloc material. Singer is focusing on nitpicky things to push while not trying to figure out thought process or motivation. She's using it as a way to make it look like she's scumhunting, but you'll notice that everything about it is off. Like I said, it reminds me of what Nacho does as scum.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulb...what exactly did you like about FormerFish?

This will probably be a little hard to understand, but I liked the way he posted in response to others, and I liked the tone of the posts. It wasn't strategic. It looked like he was really lost and trying to figure things out. The way he's approaching catching up and posting I find as more likely to come from town. It's not any sort of active lurking, but instead a hectic, frazzled, sort of town "out of it"-ness. I'm probably explaining this wrong, but I had a hard time seeing scum in his responses, and I just saw town who was trying to do his best in trying to catch up in this huge game.

And your logick train was basically "she's not stupid enough to do this" which can basically be said of anyone who's good at scum. Scum are fallible; if she thought she would get town credit for it, then I absolutely think she wouldn't consider it a mistake, or a "too stupid to do this" moment. It wasn't my argument, it was yours, so...not sure why you're making it mine.

My point was just because she admitted that she thought, or figured out, that GiF was a doctor does not automatically mean she killed him for that reason. The point is that we have no other data points to suggest what the GiF kill was really about. It could mean absolutely nothing for all we know. Titus being paranoid about being set up is a town trait. Is it stupid? Yes, but it's not a scum indicator. I believe Titus knows what the optimal play would be as scum: which is to keep your mouth shut and allow town to stew in confusion. Titus has already shown a tendency to overthink things regarding deaths in this game, so I'm not sure why you latched onto her paranoia regarding the GiF kill. The simple fact of the matter is that logically Titus is the least likely person to kill GiF for the exact reasons you try to paint her as the most likely. I'm simply pointing out that fact, which you are all too willing to throw into the WIFOM mill.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, the VC analysis will be done sometime after I get off work tomorrow, with my vote to follow. Until then, good night.

[Bulbazak]

@Oversoul...yes, why would Titus begin discussion on why GiF was killed? Why would she offer TSO's "not sign" heavily implying she was some sort of PR which one could only assume was to maybe draw the nightkill question mark? In which case why wouldn't she then try to crumb her own sign after publicly outing this fact question mark? Why would she then speculate on how scum was setting her up with literally nothing to back that up at ALL as she was literally the FIRST PERSON TO EVEN SUGGEST IT AS THOUGH IT WAS PREMEDITATED OR SOMETHING? Why does Titus town or scum do ANY of these things?

I think you keep overlooking Titus's tendency to try to make everything have meaning. Look back at what happened when TSO was lynched. She immediately looked back at his reads, thinking he may have been killed for those, instead of just being the opportune lynch. Now compare that to how she is seeing meaning in GiF's death. It's paranoid conspiracy theory Titus, and try as you might, I don't see that coming from her as scum.

@Oversoul, if I was a neighborizer, I would so be neighborizing you, for the sole purpose of trying to convey to you how I think. I was frankly pretty bummed when Empire subbed out considering he's had similar training on how to approach problems and I haven't played many games with him. My play has evolved since Dr. Who, more of abandoning what I suck at unless I have nothing else to go off of.

So you think that your style of play is based on your training as a lawyer/law school?

Yes, and a little computer programming training. Lawyering is about finding clear and concise rules and applying them. Emotional basis is largely absent and detached. Things that are true are withheld because they are more likely to cause people to think something is true, without it actually being true. My stance on meta (prior good/bad acts) is much similar to that in US jurisprudence. If something is more likely to mislead, then to actually help, then don't use it. That's why I still listen to meta arguments but I'm largely dismissive unless they relate to personality. Someone's acts in another game can easily mislead us one way or the other. US Common law tends to be built on a basis of caselaw that creates a basis of rules. My VCA is an attempt to boil those actions to a calculation to determine what scum will do and when, more importantly how they will vote and when.

The Socratic method is also a useful tool for persuasion and for being persuaded. It's also how to determine if I will town or scumread someone. First, find out what the elements are a person uses to define their reads. My behavior reads are logical validity (not soundness, someone could believe something I wholeheartedly disagree with them on, if their position makes sense), town/scum benefit (who benefits more by pushing/doing an action), passion, mental transparency (are they hiding anything), and survival over pursuit. Meta plays a part to define personality. I know this leads me to conflict with emotion based players who just try to fit everything into a worldview without actually listening to facts. I consider it a flaw if I'm wrong on a tunnel, because that means I have a bad fact or a was persuaded of something that wasn't true.

Lurkers and people who refuse to engage in a dialogue are the most frustrating for this reason. I cannot engage in the mental chessmatch to determine alignment. Singer's refusal to actually engage me on any read but me is part of the reason I am struggling with her.

You're the kind of person who thinks every little accident has malicious intent behind it.
Break a vase? You were upset at what I brought you 5 years ago. Trip over a cable? You were annoyed I spend too much time on the internet and wanted to make me leave it.

Was there a point to this, or were you just trying to be disparaging?

Don't you think it's about time we do something about dead weight?

Okay. Why aren't you voting Aronis?

[Bulbazak]

Okay, time to do that VCA I promised comparing my wagon with TSO's and Mastin's. Going to bold the common denominators. Underline those that appear on two.

(10)

Bulbazak:

DeasVail,

Gammagooey

, Shadoweh,

Cheetory6

,

Titus

,

vezokpiraka

,

GuyInFreezer

,

Aronis

,

Tammy (Oversoul)

,

T S O

(10)

T S O:

Titus

,

Untrod Tripod

,

Gammagooey

,

singersigner

, mastin2,

vezokpiraka

,

Cheetory6

, ActionDan,

GuyInFreezer

, ChannelDelibird

(2)

mastin2:

vezokpiraka

,

Aronis

, (

Cheetory6

,

singersigner

,

Oversoul

,

Gammagooey

,

Untrod Tripod

, TellTaleHeart)

Okay, for kicks and giggles, let's see if we have any special names that appear on the TTH wagon:

(7)

TellTaleHeart:

Titus

,

Empire (Singersinger)

,

Tammy (Oversoul)

,

Aronis

, Marquis (FormerFish),

vezokpiraka

,

Cheetory6

, (ChannelDelibrd)

Okay, out of all the players that appeared on two of the wagons, I have strong town reads on Titus and Oversoul. That leaves {Aronis, UT, Singer}. I want to say there's no more than two scum in there, but man that looks like a very good list. But yeah, I doubt all three are scum. Singer and Aronis get bonus points for being on the TTH wagon. Looking back over the VCA, all three stayed off wagons together except in the case of Mastin. It makes sense, since I think Mastin's wagon was heavily scum pushed. However, I'm ruling out that possibility, since I doubt all four were on the wagon, and we haven't even gotten to the list of names that was on every wagon.

There are only 3 names that were on all three of the TSO/Bulba/Mastin wagons: Vezok, Cheetory, and Gamma. Gamma's pretty strongly townread on my team, so I'm giving him a pass, which is backed up when you include the TTH wagon in the mix, where he was absent. That leaves only Cheetory and Vezok. I think there's only one scum here, and Vezok is the most likely candidate, as Cheetory's thought process is very transparent when you go back and look at it.

Okay, so that leaves 1 scum in {Vezok, Cheetory} and likely 2 in {Aronis, UT, Singer}. I think this gives us a pretty good foundation to lynch from and then figure out where the last scum is hiding (unless I'm wrong about there only being 2 in the second group, but I'm just going to assume I'm wrong on a read somewhere.).

@Mastin: Thoughts on Vezok given this? I know you really want to call him town, but I'm going to need more than a gut feeling to back that up.

@Gamma: Talk to me about Singer. Mollie tells me that you should be able to look objectionably at her and tell me if I'm wrong.

@Singer: VCA has given you a day. Let's make the most out of it. Why are you avoiding UT and Aronis?

Vote Vezokpiraka

I need people to provide me hard town cases or get onboard.

[Bulbazak]

1. I'm not sure I'm following your VCA.

What are you having problems with, because if it's formatting, I could fix that?

2. Why is Mollie looking at Gamma to read me?? What does she feel like he could give her that you can't? Mollieeeeeeee...why are you reaching out to someone other than meeeee.

She's not. She's been yelling at me for awhile that you're town, and I've been laying down my case for why you're scum. I believe she thinks Gamma as a third party might be able to knock some sense into me. However, the Vanilla Nightless may have done just that.

I already supplied my Vezok town read, Bulba.

Yeah, and it's crap, because it's looking at the wrong stuff. For instance, why would Vezok think TTH is scum for detecting obv. townread DV when Vezok spent his guaranteed sign detect on obv. town Tammy? One of those things is not like the other...

Curious why you went with the 50% of getting scum group rather than the 66% chance of getting scum group, especially since your VCA seems to align with the town's feelings at the moment (UT scum)?

Because I feel more strongly about my reads in the 50% group than those in the 66% group. I can follow Cheetory's line of reasoning and see how he gets from point A to point B. I'm not seeing that from Vezok, who just jumps on the popular wagons with nary a reason (again, TTH was under good reasons, but that's been shot with his recent reveal about Oversoul.). Meanwhile, I think UT is pointless since he's neutered, and I wasn't sure who I was wrong about in Aronis/Singer. All things considered, Vezok is the best vote.

Did you just do a VCA with 3 unflipped wagons and called me scum?
This is not how you do a VCA and you fucking know that. This is just bullshit to try to call me scum.
Also for anyone paying attention you only picked the wagons I voted on. There is no singer wagon there and a lot of other stuff.

I picked the wagons on the towniest players: Me (conf. town), TSO (conf. flipped town), Mastin (super duper obv. town), and TTH (conf. town). This will give us a lot of information, as they were all pushed by scum. Mastin had initially asked me to compare my wagon with TSO, as those were the only conf. town wagons I could compare at the time, and both resolved quickly. I then added the Mastin wagon after that wagon shot up quickly and was clearly scum pushed. TTH I added for an additional view, since it's also on conf. town and was pushed for bad reasons, i.e. scum were on the wagon. You'll notice I didn't put as much weight behind that one, but instead used it as a further point of reference. No other wagon compares to the way these wagons developed. And I find it bizarre that you're complaining about those being the only wagons you've been on (false), because that means you know the importance of those wagons and are scared of being associated with them.

Bulba, why are you townreading Gamma? Give reasons.

I mainly like the way his reads have developed and how he's interacted with people. You can clearly see him trying to figure other players out, which means that he doesn't have all the information and that his reads are developing naturally.

@Titus: MS wants to asks you what do you think of bulba's VCA.

Hey, why is MS not talking to me, or heck, even mentioning me? This is the second time we've even heard about MS in the entire game. I have a hard time believing that your slot is town and that MS has not seen town-me and told you to reach out, because that is totally something I would have expected from MS-town by now.

Would you say you're engaging in helping the town?
What exactly do you envision that would look like?

Lynching scum and not posting immense walls of nothing to boast your ego.

So you've not been reading any of my posts. That's nice to know.

Mina thinks Bulb's VCA is gross and thinks he was mildly appealing to us with his "oh well VCA says you can live another day" even though it was shallow at best. The only thing I've liked from him so far was his approach to the Bane mechanic D2 because it seemed thought out and coming from a town-motivated mindset.

What does "gross" mean, because it sounds like Mina doesn't have any sort of real thoughts about my conclusions whatsoever. Heck, you seemed confused earlier. If Mina really understood what I said, wouldn't she have explained it to you by now, which should have resulted in some questions from you? Heck, given that, why would I even care about appealing to you, especially since my stance so far has been "lynch with fire"?

On to page 205.

[Bulbazak]

Maybe I should switch to Elmo?