Mini Normal 1707 - Frog Mafia! - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!

[AxleGreaser]

sig change
New improved AxleGreaser now with ....
New improved AxleGreaser now with half as many posts, and perhaps fewer words. (

Aspirational

.)

---

Bah content. Who needs content. I don't do random voting.
VOTE: Malakittens
Skip thinks you might be evil.

{Hmm: normally that first vote has meant(been for a reason) something specific this time its slightly different. }

<There were a lot of words that belong here they have been removed as not being useful. Except that they segue. I might post them later if they become important.>

UNVOTE: Malakittens

##FOS Malakittens.

{Hmm. Also note that this is not a normal FOS. If you find it confusing just pretend its vote. If I am FOSing someone and it gets to L-2, and youd like to declare intent to hammer. Tell me to get my arse into gear and I will turn the FOS back into a vote.
k?
}

[AxleGreaser]

VOTE: AxleGreaser. Obv scum. Serious vote.

Tell me more about how you reach this remarkable conclusion.

[AxleGreaser]

Why don't *you* tell *me* more about how my conclusion is wrong?

Well, its easy, I read my role PM and I am town.

your turn.

[AxleGreaser]

Why don't *you* tell *me* more about how my conclusion is wrong?

Or is it right?

also do you actually want to know *why*

or were you trying for something else?

[AxleGreaser]

Okay, I'm satisfied.

VOTE: Malakittens because Obv Scum.

Ok, but I am not. Its still your turn.

Tell me more about how you reach this remarkable conclusion.

So why the

Serious vote.

[AxleGreaser]

PSA: also I know some people quite enjoy RVS.
So when people turn up feel free to just ignore us and get on with erudite RVS votes as per normal.
Well still be here when your done, but do remember its a 10 day cycle so dont dawdle.

[AxleGreaser]

It's okay you don't have to think I'm town

As long is I think you're town, we're good, haha

No that only makes you good.

Okay, I'm satisfied.

VOTE: Malakittens because Obv Scum.

Ok, but I am not. Its still your turn.

Tell me more about how you reach this remarkable conclusion.

So why the

Serious vote.

[AxleGreaser]

Hi.

I would feel inclunted to voted zakk if I hadn't finished a game where he did the exact same thing and was town.

I presume you mean this game where he made this post
If its different game please indicate which.

our concepts of exact same thing are not exactly the same, but that game and others do(and did) give me pause for thought.

[AxleGreaser]

no thanks

i don't want to be obv town so soon~

Dont worry, IIRC, I have never read a game where you were obv town to me.

Spoiler: one time

Well there was one time but that was because I read my role PM, but that is not 'read a game'

Also its about an effective D6, atm and were not seriously out of RVS yet.
People taking risks, and making pushes, that may make them look not obv town is how we get there...
and you know that.
So anytime you find a place to put your oar in and row ....

[AxleGreaser]

VOTE: notscience
I remember YOU

VOTE: Singer
I hate tomatos

Is there reason you moved your RVS vote?

[AxleGreaser]

So anytime you find a place to put your oar in and row ....

Hm. wondering if Axle is scum because his posts give me this terrible feel to them

yeah thats better. (now some meat on dem bones.)
If I hadn't read my PM Id be wondering too.
>look seriously calculated.<

[AxleGreaser]

It really didn't, but you phrased it like it was while calling it a thinly veiled RVS vote. What was the point?

There wasn't?

My problem is it reads little like it has an "anti point" something its trying to stay away from.

Spoiler: what was said for reference

I'm posting this last response to tell you I'm not going into stupid discussions that do nothing but clutter the thread.

If you want to ask me questions about the game thus far, you can do so.

But if you want to do a "Who's on first base" type thing, expect a non-response, and if it persists, expect to be lynched.

>'expect to be lynched'
>implying that you're that good at this game
>implying that anyone is good at this game
VOTE: notscience

RVS

Why are you saying it's RVS if you're acting like you have a legitimate reason to vote him?

That actually looked like a legitimate reason to you?

So >to you<, you now find it surprising this looked like legitimate reason.

>'expect to be lynched'
>implying that you're that good at this game
>implying that anyone is good at this game

That actually looked like a legitimate reason to you?

but you still felt the need to put in spoiler that it was RVS? If you feel it was so clearly to you not a legitimate reason why the need to clarify?
Seems overly cautious about not drawing attention.

[AxleGreaser]

Why not?

Is this an answer to this

VOTE: notscience
I remember YOU

VOTE: Singer
I hate tomatos

Is there reason you moved your RVS vote?

or an inline response to Malas 59

What I am looking for is you having, a town PM, and doing things for a reason.
(you dont have to be good player or have good reasons, just ones that are believable for you.)
So far you are looking scummier not for actually doing stuff, but for other people looking townier.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: EBWOP to 54

So anytime you find a place to put your oar in and row ....

Hm. wondering if Axle is scum because his posts give me this terrible feel to them

yeah thats better. (now some meat on dem bones.)
If I hadn't read my PM Id be wondering too.
>look

s

seriously calculated.<

[AxleGreaser]

Axle is pretty town, just saying

Mala is prob scum

So I wanted reasons for what you claimed was a serious vote.
and to me, claiming a vote is serious, claims you have reasons.
apparently you didn't.

Spoiler: What that point is NOT about

I liked 8, (I was reading previous game of yours at the time) I had an expectation when i made 9 I was going to like the answer.
I got no answer, I got you pressing at 10 (reaction fishing)(that is Ok but then its still your turn.)
I then got run away 13/17 (and on..), appeasement 17 and little in 13
I know you go on VLA weekends, so the silence is 100% null

Whats going to be problem is you have tendency in the games I read to get run up, if that happens this game you are going VLA next weekend too.
We need this cleared up.

I am not a fan of your ISO so far, and i don't think theres stuff you can say to fix that now. I am not yet voting you because you were not here so it was pointless.

Play.

Now.

[AxleGreaser]

It was me responding sarcastically to something much earlier, before I realized there was a third page. When I DID realize, I posted this:

why does this feel like pulling teeth?

Soooooo.
as you have not responded to this.

VOTE: notscience
I remember YOU

VOTE: Singer
I hate tomatos

Is there reason you moved your RVS vote?

and what i am looking for is this

What I am looking for is you having, a town PM, and doing things for a reason.
(you dont have to be good player or have good reasons, just ones that are believable for you.)
So far you are looking scummier not for actually doing stuff, but for other people looking townier.

what could you do?

[AxleGreaser]

I disagree with zakk regarding axle. I dont think malas posted enough to be sure, but I cant argue against his scumread on her.

Veegee might be town.

I also dont think i am pretty, if that helps.

other than an unfazed reluctance to do stuff. I don't see any reason for thinking VeeGee is more likely than random to be town.

to argue against or agree with, Zakk's scum read, I would need to know what his reasons were.

[AxleGreaser]

<

Warning does contain a vote unvote FOS, and may contain Nuts

>

Spoiler: alternate Axleised VoteCount

VOTECOUNT 1.01

• (2+1)

  Malakittens

  — zakk, notscience, Axle(FOS)
  
  
  (0)

  ika

  —
  
  
  (1)

  Metal Sonic

  — Malakittens
  
  
  (0)

  shaddowez

  —
  
  
  (0)

  AxleGreaser

  —
  
  
  (0)

  BlueBloodedToffee

  —
  
  
  (0)

  Shiro

  —
  
  
  (1)

  Ciara24

  — Shiro
  
  
  (1)

  notscience

  — Nosferatu
  
  
  (1)

  zakk

  — Ciara24
  
  
  (1)

  Nosferatu

  — singersigner
  
  
  (1)

  VeeGee

  — Metal Sonic
  
  
  (1)

  singersigner

  — VeeGee
  
  
  
  (2)

  (NOT VOTING)

  —
  shaddowez, BlueBloodedToffee
  
  (1)

  (FOSING)

  —
  Axle
  
  (1)

  (NOT HAMMERING)

  —
  Ika
  
  With
  13

  alive
  , it takes
  7

  votes
  to lynch.
  

##unFOS MalaKittens

<< that was going to be down graded to IGMEOY, but nah.

Your move.

Ok.
VOTE: Zakk
UNVOTE: Zakk

##FOS Zakk

I can write a wall but I will leave that for now. << explicit claim.

Spoiler: VCA Data

Axles VCA Data
Key R=>Random / number => post / S = Serious /

unvoted

/ N = Naked (or effectively so)

Zakk:

SingerSinger(R/6)

(70), Ciara(R/28)
MalaKittens: Axle(FOS/7), Zakk(SN/13), NotScience(SR/48),

MetalSonic(R/56)

(R57)
AxleGreaser:

Zakk(S/8)

13)
NotScience: Nosferatu(R?/30),

VeeGee(N/31)

45,

MetalSonic(R/35)

(R56)
Singer:

NotScience(R/16)

(S48)

MalaKittens(N?/32

(SR59)) VeeGee(R/45)
Ciara24: Shiro(R/34)
VeeGee: MetalSonic(R/57)
MetalSonic: MalaKittens(SNR59) << yeah its kinda, to me, all three at once.
Nosferatu: SingerSinger(SN/70)

Upta POST 70 << should match the Frog VC, or I made an oopsie

Zakk:

SingerSinger(R/6)

(70), Ciara(R/28), Axle(S83)
MalaKittens:

Axle(FOS/7)

(83), Zakk(SN/13), NotScience(SR/48),

MetalSonic(R/56)

(R57)
AxleGreaser:

Zakk(S/8)

13)
NotScience: Nosferatu(R?/30),

VeeGee(N/31)

45,

MetalSonic(R/35)

(R56)
Singer:

NotScience(R/16)

(S48)

MalaKittens(N?/32

(SR59)) VeeGee(R/45)
Ciara24: Shiro(R/34)
VeeGee: MetalSonic(R/57)
MetalSonic: MalaKittens(SNR59) << yeah its kinda, to me, all three at once.
Nosferatu: SingerSinger(SN/70)

Upta Pussies Bow 83
(warming I <3 GEB... but maybe pussies bow wont work)

Fly my pretties

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: EBWOP

Oh well the self referential post links didnt work booo 83. nvm it seemed unlikely they would. I still <3 GEB.(book = disambiguation)

[AxleGreaser]

@Shiro

Hi,
If you are around I'd like to synchronise a time I can ask you a factual question yes/no and get an instant response.
If you say when, I will be here.
<ooo spooky><nah its probably lame>

[AxleGreaser]

ready

[AxleGreaser]

I really am after i ask you answer in under a few minutes. So ready?

[AxleGreaser]

The last game together was masquerade NY178.
Question: have you read any game i played in since that you didn't?
Answer Yes No
go

[AxleGreaser]

hey look I am psychic, while its kinda obvious that would be likely, as most people don't read games they didn't play in.
Mala has played in game with me since then, and seen stuff you haven't.
Mala has different perspective.

This question

What kind of terrible feeling is he giving you ?

has already kinda been answered in the thread by... me.....
This is me

yeah thats better. (now some meat on dem bones.)
If I hadn't read my PM Id be wondering too.
>look seriously calculated.<

agreeing that someone who has not read my role PM, is doing 'better' by wondering about that. But I also indicated that they could be more specific and put meat on the bones, by stating that was from thinking I had been "seriously calculated" in my actions thus far.

Now while that is a standard thing that can be said about my town and scum game, it does mean that alignment is for outside observers still up for wondering.

I think you probably need a different or better question.

[AxleGreaser]

fsk there I go again I keep getting that mixed up.
mala hasnt played with me...
but I suspect mala has seen my scum game. Either that or seriously calcuated pings for them based on past experience.

[AxleGreaser]

Well that played out better when i imagined what would happen in my head. Now i am just a clown who cant even remember who he has played with.

[AxleGreaser]

No, there is no reason I moved my RVS vote.

Well that is a shame, I was hoping you had a bad reason,
because just before you did Singer had been making posts that IMO looked townier,
by paying attention and progressing the game,
and you 'respond' by voting singer?

makes you look like your not actually playing/paying attention, just fluffing.

[AxleGreaser]

I should add that I have started missing Axle's posts and would probably PL him. His posting is hard to read and I don't like the fact he doesn't place his vote and instead replaces it with a FOS.

So have you ever read my other games?
and the effort I have gone to to keep what I say brief here?

and what could you do about not liking the fact.
do you lynch people you dont like or the ones with scum PMs?

[AxleGreaser]

Hi everyone, sorry I've been so inactive, ended up extremely busy for the last couple of days, but I'll be back in a couple of hours.


Also, I will be V/LA from the 19th - 26th.

As you are going VLA for the rest of D1 and so far did ....

Spoiler: This ones probably irrelevant if the answer is what i guess it is

It's okay you don't have to think I'm town

As long is I think you're town, we're good, haha

so much deja vu

VOTE: zakk [/zakk] because he insulted my avi before

What is the deja vu.
When did he insult your avi? (which game at least.. or the post would be nice)
(this may or may not help with feels read which i all you are giving us.)

Is your vote now not RVS.
If not what do you intend to do with your vote.
Is your VLA absolute or will you drop in to post a serious vote on leading wagon before EOD DL.

play some.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: ooc fluff @notsci

Axle are you ESL?

I am Axle

. "

This is Me

". (I cant get link to a bit thats the trope, bits when Kim luck thumps cheats and proclaims "this is me" as way to prove his identity, I fell in love.).


I keep getting asked that. Not in any normal sense. I grew up speaking English, and my parents were measurably excellent at the English language.(top few %)
Strangely however when I was about 23 I found out my native language was C++. (or basically any computer language, except for some reason prolog.)
So that might explain some of it.
Also we are playing game, where who understands what, and why they do, is important.

I have a very different set of priors to most everybody, hence I am in fact translating from how I think and the background knowledge I have and can assume, and having to work out or guess which bits need saying and which bits don't. If you read chapter in book called GEB, about record players, and GROK it. You will realise that significant part of the music/(idea conveyed) is not in the words/music but is in the device used to play it. Thus when i am unsure of which bits inside my head that i am entirely used to are also inside yours it makes it hard. That its hard is also a distinguishing feature between those trying to understand me and those trying to lynch me. In game recently where i was scum I suggested that if people didn't understand something and wanted to they should ask. The answer you will get when asking is likely to be more informative, as i also then have whatever clues, I can get from your question about what was missing from the original that I assumed was in your head but wasn't. For instance if you don't get GROK, and haven't read the chapter of GEB about record players, this text may fall on deaf ears.
Do note I spent 10 years reading and rereading GEB before I groked what i do of it. So reading that chapter right now may not help.

Still look like ESL?

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: more

Yeah I just read that definition of Grok, that I linked to, its lame. When you grok something you become it, totally internalize the idea concept, in way that is only similar to drinking and incorporating the water. Note in stargnger in strange land when somebody dies thy distill them and drink them (IIRC but they also do that in dune so meh), as way to totally celebrate the other being and incorporate them into themselves.
It is popular idea among programmers because there is world of difference between reading some code and understanding it, and groking it. <In a different knowledge domain,> If you Grok a DFT then an FFT having different name is about as odd as someone being called "Bert" when looked ta from the front and "Ernie" when looked at from the back, when really they are exactly the same thing just viewed from different perspectives. (See the cover of the book GEB)
All these words in the last two posts are trying to convey one really rather small idea. But as its an idea that may not be in your head, this is how hard new ideas are in fact to exchange using words. Normally when people talk, its like pressing buttons on a juke box(see that chapter in GEB), it relies almost exclusively on prior shared knowledge.
Here is you and singer doing that, really explicitly

Hey singer, you know who zakk is reminding me of?

You know what solution I have to this dilemma?

Yes.

Yes.

but it also happens at much more subtle levels.

stopping now.

[AxleGreaser]

Sooo, everyone's scum?

who are you responding to, this time?

please try to at least make it clear what your scant words refer to.

[AxleGreaser]

Can you elaborate on your VCA data?

No drama.
So _far_ i kinda draw no conclusions at all.

I have made VCA harder by not appearing in the mods VC's (due to me FOSing my votes). Thats a side effect, as a result of a choice I made.

As i broke it, I fixed it.

if you want to do VCA, and not be messed up by my FOS not appearing in any vote counts, i have put capability that back for you.
Its in spoiler as i didn't do anything with it but provided it as a service.
Linking directly to the place all the votes were cast so they can be easily checked for context,
is a thing i will use when examining who voted when and why.

also when i do analyze who voted when and why its probably more important to me to see which way the thread sentiment would have appeared to be swinging at the time
so that post is a quick find index to find who was pushing (really gently so far) what way when.

As for some actual VCA like stuff.

I have suspicion that scum stood back near the start of the game.

Why.
Either Zak is town or scum. (cant be 3rd party due to OP

10

/

3

)
If hes scum then that looks like a train wreck, and so scum buddies may feel the need to stand back to see how bad its going to be before they commit one way or another.
If hes town, then from my POV, I know i am town, so i know scum is in that case scum seeing a TvT train wreck, so while not as strong they will also stand back and let it burn.

Scum were, probably, hiding in the bleechers.

Lastly from your POV if you don't decide i am town but wonder if I am scum, where would the others be? again "hiding in the bleechers."

Congratulations you were not in the bleechers. You're townier.
Ciara is so meh with whats hes posted, but was not in the bleechers.
Nosferatu posted that weird thing i think singer is voting him over (+ unspecified) but wasn't in the bleechers.
Veege yuck, but kinda not in the bleechers.
Mala, thats harder
Then comes Shiro and Metal
and while Singer is dragging up the rear, Singer brought content.

So yeah with some trick logic up front we can even do VCA without a flip.
and as i said the purpose/intent of the VCA post was to undo what I had done by FOSing.

[AxleGreaser]

A big part of my scumgame is breaking up TvTs an redirecting them on a third townie.

So maybe that's what scum would do in this instance, but I'm not sure they are as calculating as you anticipate.

yeah people play in different ways, and I look forward to you trying to break up a TvT with me and someone else and me not ping you as scum...
(also pretty sure breaking up TvTs for the cred and redirecting them is calculated, saying "OMG... train wreck" and standing still is not so much)

I am however currently a fair bit stronger on Zakk being scum than my last post might have implied.
That analysis that scum would be standing back has been my expectation from about post 22, when i didnt have as strong a feel on Zakk as scum.

I expect them to be standing back if Zack is scum.
I expect them to have tendency to be standing back in the less likely case that hes town. (but they may have looked for a place to park)
but with Zakk shooting at anything that moves, 18-24
standing back is what scum did (well significantly more likely than random)

but hey if I get contrary scum reads based on other stuff, I am happy to go with that too.
but as a guiding influence for what rocks to look under, so far it is working out for me.

[AxleGreaser]

In post 146, AxleGreaser wrote:
I have suspicion that scum stood back near the start of the game.

Why.
Either Zak is town or scum. (cant be 3rd party due to OP 10/3)
If hes scum then that looks like a train wreck, and so scum buddies may feel the need to stand back to see how bad its going to be before they commit one way or another.
If hes town, then from my POV, I know i am town, so i know scum is in that case scum seeing a TvT train wreck, so while not as strong they will also stand back and let it burn.

Scum were, probably, hiding in the bleechers.


This is why I think Axle is town. Scum don't really talk about things like this.

this means jack. It was an open numbered setup from the beginning.

What does it being open (known to to 10/3) from the begging have to do with anything?
That was just how I know he cant be 3rd party.

I then expect similar behavior (hiding in the bleechers) whether he is scum or town. but more reliably for if hes scum.

[AxleGreaser]

I still am waiting for him to actually do something in regards to me.

well in that case it is likely to be sad.

Spoiler: I cant in my head get handle on how you will react to me

(and which reactions would be scummy or towny. I cant at this time see how to reaction test you against me.)
(so actually >actively< do something in regards you may not happen)(or it might and if i do it right, you might not notice, so i get an actual not a scripted response.)
(measure what you do about thread vs my own interpretation of what needs doing...)

There exist people of your skill level who react with hand wavy non specific bullshit like this "his posts give me this terrible feel to them" 52
and kinda attack the playstyle or player in general.

Here is BBT feeling out for a PL... "I should add that I have started missing Axle's posts and would probably PL him." 102
which is really weird and off considering he just assesed me as actually constructively plying the game
"Not liking Zakk's early posting - especially his turn around on Axle. Conversely, I'm liking Axle's continued push on Zakk to try and work out what Zakk was doing." 102

and to be clear that PL suggestion is 17 mins fter the first observation on the same read through.... WAT.

Cant be bothered looking them up but people who flipped town do what you did
but the contradiction from BBT is at a WAT level.

[AxleGreaser]

I am out right now but I will get the replacement in ASAP. Consider the clock frozen at 5 days and 16.5 hours until I find a replacement.

In the mean time, you can of course keep playing

That's sweet, id like few more hours on the clock after the weekend expires. That has implications.

@Mod

I know you will but when you come back and decide how long please promptly update the expiration deadline date here 3 as I will/may be making decisions based on just how much time there is on Monday. (belts and braces)

[AxleGreaser]

Okay, Malakittens, what do you think of:

- notscience's #20 being immediately unhelpful right off the bat? (that's anti-town, by the way)

Well I was of the opinion that you, being this unhelpful made you scummy.

It's okay you don't have to think I'm town

As long is I think you're town, we're good, haha

You claimed the vote was serious8 and have never explained why.17 (actually refused to, is a better description)

NS naked voted16 so obviously its RVS. RVS only ever has BS reasons at best.
You could ask "Why so shy?"(about the lack of a joke reason) That would be a real question (if you thought NS was a noob, but they're not).
Indeed a minimal no splash post seemed about right to me, as there was stuff happening.

but hey you leapt at the distraction anyway.

But nope rather than improve your "satisfied" read on me, by seeing what i wanted to know and why....
you want to play tag with an RVS vote?
yeah right.

As far as helpful, 23 and 25, were kind and generous.

This is you filling space

Why singer over mala?

27 being helpful to a fault. (most/many players would sneer and say "RVS LOL", but NS told you what actually happened.)

and then you had used up all your precious time before the weekend and had nothing more to say....

way to run away dude.

Spoiler: addendum

would it be giving away to much if I said I vomited a little when i read this.

And thus post is really town sounding, as was 14 for that matter

I like sweet things but yuck that is way to much sugar coating.
I don't take candy from strangers.

Suggestion: If you have some truth, lay it on the table.

[AxleGreaser]

I don't read it as scum,I read it as a young kid that had no plans on committing to a game.. obviously lynching scum is priority. I never said I would prioritize info over scum. I don't think he is scum

This lands in the middle of my read. Same answer same reasons.

This doesn't

BBT-looks like clueless town

have you played with (read) BBT before?
I am pretty sure i haven't, but i read several games.
For BBT to limbo under Clueless town bar, you have to have set the clue bar pretty high and lots of people (majority?) are going to be clueless.

[AxleGreaser]

taking oar back out of that puddle.

[AxleGreaser]

@Singer

you say

Zakk is probably town, too.

without referring to the more recent posts (As that gets complicated and wordy...)
Which are themselves:

That's completely hypocritical, no matter which way you try to spin it.

which(being hypocritical) isn't really all that alignment indicative, but it is evidence they know better and acted that way anyway.... I digress.

So can you show me town Zakk before ISO 162 (inclusive)

note

Spoiler: things i understand

I have seen this post http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7149353 and the basis of it.
This 224(your ego/blush post) was calling it like you see it, based on your actual recent experience.
I haven't been playing, but my reads of games i read have been on fire. (3 for 3 in one of the team games I read. AKA I only scum read 3 and they all flipped scum, while actual town flailed.) So I get where that leads your head.

However if you or I die, the other one can only pay attention to the reads if we understand them. And if you die for instance that wont change much for me, because if scum kill you it will also be very likely true i already really strongly thought you were town. And you can still be wrong when your dead, and scum kill for both reasons, too right and all wrong (that then cements in a conf towns mistaken town read...)

[AxleGreaser]

Hello there everyone!

Glad to join the game in its early stages.

damn couple more hours woulda been nice.
but welcome anyway.

mmm..
Hi.
No hard feelings. I really am town this time.
AKA LOL.

at least you didnt replace

so much deja vu

but you have replaced NOS and singer has spr serious scum read on you 209

Apart from whatever Singer has 202, for me the biggest problem was here 55
(singers points 2,3 are interesting but .. 240)

Look forwards, find scum, lynch them.

[AxleGreaser]

@Axle: I'm sorry for being unhelpful before. I'll try to change that.

Why were you?
Your Intention was?

What on earth was shiny about that RVS vote. 18

Why anything but engage?

[AxleGreaser]

Hi, Singer. (if you are at all confused, it might be worth looking up every time(pretty much?) i ever start post with Hi and what its intent is.)

I, I, I, blub blub (picture me blowing bubbles) ....

but zip it. me speaking right now would be bad. So dont ask..
but I'll be back.

Spoiler: Axleised VC

sweet I got my few hours

deadline will be 07:30am USA East Coast time on Tuesday, August 25th. I will update all deadline posts in the morning. I need to sleep now.

VC is updated on top of page 11 and (should be) accurate as of that post. I will have a new picture of FROGS there in the morning.

VOTECOUNT 1.02

• (0)

  Malakittens

  —
  
  
  (0)

  ika

  —
  
  
  (0)

  Metal Sonic

  —
  
  
  (0)

  shaddowez

  —
  
  
  (0)

  AxleGreaser

  —
  
  
  (0)

  BlueBloodedToffee

  —
  
  
  (0)

  Shiro

  —
  
  
  (0)

  Scorpious

  —
  
  
  (0)

  notscience

  —
  
  
  (1+1)

  zakk

  —
  Scorpious Axle(FOS)
  
  (4)

  MaxwellPuckett

  —
  singersigner, notscience, Metal Sonic, Shiro
  
  (2)

  VeeGee

  —
  BlueBloodedToffee, shaddowez
  
  (0)

  singersigner

  —
  
  
  
  (4)

  (NOT VOTING)

  —
  ika, VeeGee, MaxwellPuckett, zakk
  
  (2)

  (FOSING)

  —
  Axlegreaser
  
  (1)

  (NOt Hammering)

  —
  ika, BBT
  
  With
  13

  alive
  , it takes
  7

  votes
  to lynch.
  

Feelin lazy do the VC Data later

BTW I like all pretty formatting, but find it 100% not alignment indicative.
I particularly like to link to ISOs, ... because i can.

[AxleGreaser]

Very, very confusing, and cryptic.

If theres a bit that you think interests you ask.
I am also having fun. (my idea of fun is different to most peoples, as am I.)
Its also easier for town to make the connections than scum as they are reading and thinking.

The last post is especially cryptic. It is possibly meaningless, unless you know what I am thinking,
however later it is place holder that lets me go back and state what I was thinking at that time,
and I expect what I say then to pattern match the imagery of, "I, I, I, blub blub (picture me blowing bubbles) ...."

but zip it. me speaking right now would

be bad

. So dont ask..
but I'll be back.

[AxleGreaser]

Do note we haven't played together but I have, for recreation while bored, read rather a lot of your posts lately, right up until quite recently even. mumble mumble. da rulez. mumble mumble.
So I think I have some kind of feel for you.

I think Mala,and Zakk are scum,Singer not so much,that post bothered me but she has gotten better imo. She also seems genuinley excited to make a case she feels strong about. I like that

BBT-looks like clueless town
Notscience-looks like confident town
Axlegreaser- weird way of speaking..almost hard to follow.. town nonetheless

Null on:
Metal Sonic
shaddowez
Veegee
Shiro

do you agree/disagree with any of my other early reads?

As i am a/the prime mover of the Zack push, I agree with that.
Mala made some posts and i thought yeap town, (i suspect my reasoning would only be agreed with by me though.)
but for me its mala 50, so doubt remains.
Some stuff has made me screw up my nose, (so far I have not sat down and really dug, it is the kind of read I need to let mature if I force it, I will get tunneled one way or the other, right or wrong)
No way id want to lynch Mala D1 ahead of Zakk.

but as you have no reasoning in the thread for those its hard to tell. If its only the conclusion or if I also find the way you say you got there plausible too.

I know i am town, Zakk agrees 17 and in some ways I disagree with him, but that is on method. Well unless he put serious meat on why he got town from those, because I am pretty sure I could do those if I was scum. So either he doesnt know that, or he as scum was making up crap to try and shoo me away

Anyway.
As stated BBT we disagree on.

NotScience, yeah that is a plausible assesment.

I have some pretty thin town reads, in among your nulls.

and as i do for instance,
just come out of game with MaxwellPucket where I studied him for feels very very hard, and i played in masquerade with Shiro where I got a hard get, town read.

I feel I have stronger read on Singer than you do, but i have been here in real time thinking what i thought and then seeing how well their play meshed with my real time expectations of what ought get done. You can never get that except by reading in real time. So again your read seems plausible.

I find it important to understand what it is plausible for a person to know, as scum make up their reads, so when reads come out of nowhere I am, rather -_- hmmm about that
As for me read up on anyone, I will put this in perspective My first in game post on MS as is indicated in that post at that time I had read multiple(lots) games by multiple "other site notables". Mala, Singer, are a site notables, I read a game back then with BBT as a noob... even then not entirely clueless (2nd ever game for him).

[AxleGreaser]

A big part of my scumgame is breaking up TvTs an redirecting them on a third townie.

So maybe that's what scum would do in this instance, but I'm not sure they are as calculating as you anticipate.

@NOS

Hi,
Can you show me examples of you breaking up TvTs as a big part of your scum game?
(especially one you are proud of...)
PS. If you cant, that's cool too, but I will have a followup question.

[AxleGreaser]

No.

-.-

Nope it was too cryptic for me. Who was this to/at. It was in the same minute as mine so maybe its not at me, and just got ninja'd?

[AxleGreaser]

Just drop it and half the stuff you posted in that PBPISO can be said the same for you so!

I found that it was 'tad' more than half, and 'tad' stronger than '

can be said

'.

Poster child

was the phrase that came to my mind.

Lets take just point #1.

notscience's #20 being immediately unhelpful right off the bat? (that's anti-town, by the way)

So Zakk knowing that is anti town, Zak does....

question dodging like this

It's okay you don't have to think I'm town

As long is I think you're town, we're good, haha

and describing own play like this.

@Axle: I'm sorry for being unhelpful before. I'll try to change that.

and knowingly doing anti town, is ...
playing to which teams win con?

(I have some (I think they are) ongoing games I intend to read for my own edification today.)

[AxleGreaser]

@Maxwell

Spoiler: chat

zakk, can you point to what is objectively scummy about notscience's posts?

Have you read my posts? Orrrr

I'm asking because you said that notscience did things that were 'objectively' (that exact word) as opposed to 'subjectively' scummy. I was hoping you could underline those points for me, because sifting through that massive case-post on notscience, its difficult to pick them out. Specifically, which points are there that you just think town wouldn't do?

Axle, I can't believe it took me THIS long to remember where exactly I'd played with you. I definitely recognized you but my first newbie game on the site was not where I was looking for ya... good to know.

Well it that case me worrying that "it burns", was moot. I have not played game since, been busy and stuff. Also its game i want to remember instead of forget. and i have one of those memories where I remember some aspects of BBTs second newbie that i have mentioned somewhere in my ISO.

Your posts are actually easier for me to understand than they were. You're being cryptic on purpose, so it's still difficult, but at least I can guess at what you're trying to do here.

Well that one was. Some others much less so.

I'm suspicious because in that game, I didn't really see a reason to read you as scum, and I'm not really seeing a reason here, either. So I don't know how to go about things, haha.

yeah... I know. I have one plan, devils choice, I want to die before you or catch all the scum.

Your read on zakk is exactly opposite of mine, though... at the beginning I definitely thought he was scum, but I'm see a lot of towniness more recently and I'm pretty sure of that read at the moment. What do you think of his read on notscience?

[/quote][/quote]

Its Bollocks. Its a parody of a read. proof that he could have had reason right at the start but chose to run away, and never deigned to explain why despite knowing its anti town...

What happened at the start was
as Scum he
Thought he could rattle my cage. Is coming of a recent scum win, thought "i am invincible", and reached to far. Thus posted his obv scum serious vote post.
Pushed again.
Realised oops no bad idea this guy wont cave, and ran away for long enough that he could go VLA as he does on weekends.

Eventually and reluctantly he has started appearing to try.

So yeah I get him turning it around for you, but i am not convinced, he is clearly to me the best D1 lynch.

If you dont want to lynch him, who?

[AxleGreaser]

Like I said, zakk's early play wasn't good. The first two things you quoted were from early game, and the later quote (257) has him apologizing for his earlier play? I don't see that as anti-town, especially since it happened way later than the actual anti-town behaviour.
And I HAVE seen positive changes with zakk's play.

Yep it was a mistake as town or scum.

yep he apoligised, did he go back and explain anything he had just been handwaving over?
yeah he can play better, he got caught by playing badly.

I have seen them too. Partly i gave space, no hammering the wagon into top gear, trying to get that to happen.

[AxleGreaser]

Re: Metal Sonic to whomever asked me...I thought I explained it already, but as long as he's sheeping me, I'm not really going to argue. I could see his less active self and the fact that he's unabashedly sheeping me as me being wrong and he as scum would like to encourage it, but *shrug* I don't think I'm wrong so we'll see.

NOT

@ Singer
Open Question not to singer.

Can MS as scum afford to blatantly sheep Singer. Starting that early, before they know whether Singer will ping the scum or not.
Strategically speaking,

town read

.

For me
Next most plausible thing.... MS and singer are both scum and now joined at the hip, also a rather risky go big or go home kind of strategy.

[AxleGreaser]

and the later quote (257) has him apologizing for his earlier play? I don't see that as anti-town, especially since it happened way later than the actual anti-town behaviour.

Ah.
The later quote shows that Zakk did not just do the anti town behavior but that he knows better and knows what such behavior is..

I need to demonstrate the lack of pro town and the intention.
Him later showing that he knows what is and is not pro town demonstrates (goes to) knowingly doing it.

Spoiler: There exist

There exist players who play like Zakks early play but insist the game is all about them and them getting reads and they never cooperate, with anyone unless they have formed a block.
The concept of allowing other people who may be scum or town, ply and try to work out your alignment, and you there by getting read on whether they do that legitimately never occurs to such people. Such anti team players, also tend to get into pissing matches, and would refuse to ever clarify zakks serious vote as way of establishing alpha male dominance. I think Zakk has shown he knows better. As i said I have some reading to do.
before I light up this thing, as a wagon of justice.
I also have been waiting around to see if anyone else can find wagon of merit.

[AxleGreaser]

I think it should be pretty obvious that I want VeeGee lynched, though.

I will be interested in you showing me how VeeGee is scummier than is normal for vee gee.

After all if we are going to asses Zakk against Zakk meta, then we ought do that with Vee Gee. Lynching vee Gee for being vee Gee and not for getting a scum PM is bad.

I will be interested in you showing me how VeeGee is scummier than is normal for vee gee.

[AxleGreaser]

So... like I understand what you're saying, but why would a scum zakk knowingly do anti-town behaviour?

becuase

What happened at the start was
as Scum he
Thought he could rattle my cage. Is coming of a recent scum win,

thought "i am invincible", and reached to far.

Thus posted his obv scum serious vote post.
Pushed again.
Realised

oops no bad idea this guy wont cave

, and ran away for long enough that he could go VLA as he does on weekends.

It less likely I would hope for him to knowingly/mistakenly do it as town?

In backing out of it, he tried to just go chase something else shiny and say this

It's okay you don't have to think I'm town

As long is I think you're town, we're good, haha

and fob me off, with a lollipop.

And thus post is really town sounding, as was 14 for that matter

I got about 3 and half hours of freedom to get down the street, go to the gym and be back.
cu l8r

[AxleGreaser]

<more deleted stuff>
I sure hope you know what your doing. I said fly my pretties and that was free license from me to go find your own targets, and that i kinda endorsed where people (Well the ones I thought were pretty) were looking.
but sooner or later I am going to have words....

Also, this is a minor thing, but Axel, could you stop spoilering so much? It makes crtl-fing your ISO a lot more difficult, and I'm not really sure what the point of spoilering so much is anyway. If you have walls, you have walls, but try to learn to say what you have to say in fewer words so people will be more likely to read it.

Thats a point i had not considered. The spoilered is designed to make it readable, and skimmable. I will cogitate.

[AxleGreaser]

but try to learn to say what you have to say in fewer words so people will be more likely to read it.

Ok but i have been trying to do that since before you were born, and this where i am upto, in terms of brevity.
Mainly i hope town is more likely to try and understand me than scum. Wincon baby.

[AxleGreaser]

Axle - Do you have links to show this is VeeGee's town play, because I'm also looking for a VeeGee lynch at the moment.

I am not on the VeeGee wagon, getting those would be your due diligence?
I had pretty good read/skim of most (quite few) players previous games (during pregame and early in the game) doubling down on that by collecting links didn't seem worth it.

Also I have NOT claimed he is town, I have asked how the people who have voted him as most likely to flip scum reached that conclusion.
TBMK it is going to be basically impossible to be much surer than random that he is town or scum.
So the VeeGee voters are content to basically random lynch today. That smells like a cop out especially this early and not as late D1 compromise.
The townies who are doing that are just failing to commit or find read they believe, and the scum would be doing that to be hiding there, as its easy to conflate bad with scum.
Here are his topics. (about 3 out 4 of those completed games should be town ones.)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... &sr=topics

any incompleted games in there where his slot has flipped you will have to find for yourself.

And hey with sample sized that small, there will exist patterns that go hey hes scum. There is also the difference of context to contend with.

TLDR: I am pretty sure what i would post as links would show that not playing is Vee Gees game and were done.
VeeGees play will be such that its plausible to do the posts as either, and were stuck with making judgement calls do I think VeeGee as scum would do that at that time, or just lurk some more.

I dont recall ANY claims that this is Vee Gees scum play.

BBT: seriously soft peddles and waffles.

OK, that didn't take long. No RVS wagon saddens me.

Let's get this going;

VOTE: VeeGee

There is zero accountability if that flips town. he was after all just sad there had been no RVS wagon, so...., he voted someone and said lets go....
Thats not wagon thats a witch burning

Not sure I understand your reasoning for Voting VeeGee could you summarise it for me.

and for gawds sake dont just jump off the veegee wagon onto Maxwell,, unless you explain it rather thoroughly... first. 246 "doing this for now" also seems not to take much responsibility for actually believing your vote.

[AxleGreaser]

VOTE: Malakittens

Thats weird. Mala is 4th 321

I understand what is plausible to achieve comes into the equation.

but given the huge list of tells in 193 is claimed by you to be objectively scummy,
you have not seemed to me real keen to get them heard and acted on.

not liking it.

[AxleGreaser]

You read his iso and tell me how is not a setup of a VI.

I agree many of his earlier post have been content and reasoning free...
That is not town tell and not only explainable by a VI hypothesis.

I disagree with many of his points, in this post 193
but i would like you to explain to me how a VI makes such post.

yes the points are
garbage
and dont actually apply
or apply to Zakks own posting more so than NotSciences..

BUT

not VI.
To pull that many scum tells fake or otherwise out basically every post in filter requires an understanding of how the game is played.

Given 193 Vi is not a viable excuse for his play.

What other viable reason do you have to excuse his play.

please Comment on Maxwells posting and show me how it is scummy.

---

Oh yeah and i am done with the need FOSing

VOTE: Zakk

@Thread

However if someone LOl hammers and deprives me of twilight (where i expect will have things to say)(on the off chance)

lynch their scummy arse tomorrow...

[AxleGreaser]

@Singer and Notscience

Nos was inactive and the moment someone started pressuring him he replaced out.

I find that kind of thing scummy. it is not as strong of an indication as if he was being pushed hard but it still tick me.

Shiro you are second last vote on the wagon
Please read maxwells post and explain why you are voting that slot.

TBMK you are voting only becuase it replaced out and

Nos was inactive and the moment someone started pressuring him he replaced out.

I find that kind of thing scummy. it is not as strong of an indication as if he was being pushed hard but it still tick me.

is your only reason.

There is rather lot more in the Slots filter now. What is your current opinion.

[AxleGreaser]

Axl I will get back to you

Max have you played with zakk before? Alternatively have you read his games?

@Mala You said you played with zakk right? Excuse me but which part of his play is hard to read? I can see that from someone who never played with him but otherwise it is pretty straightforward.

Infact the only thing that makes me doubt my zakk townread is the fact that he hasn't been driven to claim from those that don't know him yet.

Which brings me back to max and my question. If he has no knowledge of zakk (which seems to be the case) I find his defense of him to be awful and one of two things.

1. Scum trying to defend partner and incase he gets lynched give Wifom of none would blatantly defend his partner so obviously.

Now I believe zakk is town which brings us to


2. Scum who is defending zakk so when zakk dies/gets lynched he can get told you so cred.

Is it impossible to be town defending a real town read? No but it is more unlike it in my opinion.

It seems I won't have to get back to you Axl

Sorry wat.

Your case that Max is scum is that preflip association with Zak not being scum... means what?

You think that Zak who you are sure is town cant be read by max unless max has played with him.... or read him

Fine, Ive read quite bit of Zak, and i am now driving the wagon like a trojan.
Your read on me is?

[AxleGreaser]

@Shiro Like i really want to be clear.

You are sure Zakk is town.
You believe Max is scum becuase Max cant reasonably also think Zak is town unless Max has played with or read Zak....
Therefore you claim Max is white knighting Zakk for the cred, because actually reading him as town is unbelieveable?

and thats your reasoning?

or did i get confused.

[AxleGreaser]

Wait you read zakk past games and you still think he is scum? Unless his scum and town play are identical then I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.This is zeds Tavern to the dot. Aggressively point everywhere,sone stuff then apologise for anti town play. I am having de ja vu

and I told you so

Hi.

I would feel inclunted to voted zakk if I hadn't finished a game where he did the exact same thing and was town.

I presume you mean this game where he made this post
If its different game please indicate which.

our concepts of exact same thing are not exactly the same, but that game and others do(and did) give me pause for thought.

and you acknowledged i had seen them

Yeap that is the game. By same I didn't mean exact same post but you know style of early game play.
Now for all I know he might do the same as scum since I haven't read any of his scum games but for now I am OK for seeing it as not scummy

and NO its not zeds tavern to the dot.

Sure there is aggression, but none of my read is for the aggression, I believe I was reading Zeds tavern when we interacted at the start of the game, thats how come i could USE zakks image in reply to him. I had the expectation that I would town read the aggression when i found it had a basis and a direction.
What i got was run away. :\

What I got since didnt make that better.

Here is him making big outrageous Calls http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6968970 for no actual basis, yep thats not the scummy bit either.
Here is him justifying that http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6969048 Notice the picture.... check the picture i used....

Here is him communicating http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6969146 with probable town team mates, That is absent here. This game is ALL about zakk.

Here is him explaining himself http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6969173 Absent here

Here is him making aseriosu vote with no reason http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6969190 (And thats a bit like here)
BUT the reasons existed http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6969274

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6969550

Soory I really cant see down to the dot, unless weonly do really superficial study and go
are they both aggressive check check, and say they are the same.

[AxleGreaser]

Also yes I find it improbable that someone without knowing zakk's play can see his play as town

Really You think all the later part of Zakks ISO in thi game also screams scum unless you have seen that its just his style?

IKA thinks it looks like a VI.

[AxleGreaser]

Also yes I find it improbable that someone without knowing zakk's play can see his play as town without something to grasp on let alone defend him

So what have you been doing about finding out if Max has way of having his read you are unaware of?

[AxleGreaser]

If I am wrong then I am welcoming max to give a valid reason to town read zakk to the point of making him go out of his way to defend him.

and how was he supposed to know to do that?

[AxleGreaser]

go out of his way to defend him.

Come on >>>>>YOU<<<<< really ought know better, show me Max going out of his way, rather than being responsive to questions
That is how they were railroading you in Masquerade (over how much you had said about each person), when I stopped it.

If you are

curious

about Max's read and where it comes from you would start here

As I read, zakk went from the bottom of my list to the highest group, which was interesting to see.

[AxleGreaser]

skimmed.

sooooo much meta... *sigh*

at work, so plenty of time to catch up properly and post,any questions welcomed..

Yeah its a problem, So many people played together recently its bound to be thing.
Zakks play is anti town by his own standards, but there are real superficial similarities between this game and zeds Tavern

and this is the scum game he won recently http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=62299

where the scum QT shows whats zakks reasoning i actually capable of. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p7160852 Not a VI.

If he looks and acts like a VI here my questions is why?

[AxleGreaser]

Well I didn't like Zakk at all in my initial read.. looks like my slot had him already voted. I'm going to keep my vote there.

Nothing to do with meta,I'm not experienced enough to know what to do with it.. lol

I often use it to just enlarge my sample size.
A thing i can need for instance is an estimate of is this just how Vee Gee plays or is a it put on for this game.
So I can estimate what should zakk be capable of if hes town, and what is he actually doing. (So while his play is bit towny later on, Zakk is clearly capable of faking that much)
(and his play later on has from my POV other limitations, that indicate his scuminess.)

Zak could (as town or scum) have given reason at 17 but chose not to. I know this from his later huge reads post on NotScience and is confirmed by reading his other games.

This post you will note got answered with ignore....

@Axle: I'm sorry for being unhelpful before. I'll try to change that.

Why were you?
Your Intention was?

What on earth was shiny about that RVS vote. 18

Why anything but engage?

[AxleGreaser]

ok zakk is defenitly not a VI although it is very much possible that he is a much better scum player than town.

you are correct!

being correct is good. it lets me trust you ^_^

nice of you to _start_ playing,

it lets me start to trust you. ^_^.

[AxleGreaser]

Thing is axl from the little I just read from genesis and it's scum pt. His play is different from his play here. He is far more calm and calculated.

Yep and what else is different is he didn't get into trouble right off the bat.

So exactly why if hes town, is he basically not playing? from 18 to 193
I mean what is 181 except an attempt to post without giving away any connections. Its essentially RVS x 6.

If 193 is actually a legitmate set of reads.... and he truthfully believes they are not just crap....

Then how come in all that time he did nothign about Notscience When according to Zakk basically every post was objectively scummy.
and Zakk was ignoring it?

and then having now pronounced NotScience with such comprehensive set of reads where is the followup a towny, any towny, would do?
There is no self consistent continuity to his play at all.

nah... I have much simpler explanation.

Zakk does not believe the post by post reads in 193 either. Its just rubbish and he knows it.

[AxleGreaser]

axxel can you have tldr cus the posts are hard to follow like that

TLDR: Zakk is scum.

Your definition of VI and mine vary. I agree (?) 193 is a bollocks post with no legitimate basis at all. (its idiotic)
I cant make up any story whereby an actual towny who makes 193 and is serious also has the rest of zakks filter.

The scum story for Zakks play is however simple.
Zakk has been avoiding giving away any association tells since the start of the game, as he felt caught.

[AxleGreaser]

@IKA

So what is your own opinion and analysis of Zakk? (and his alignment)(ive got the VI part)

[AxleGreaser]

I've voted VeeGee.

I would like people to join me.

Everyone likes company.
but
How much more than random do you think VeeGee is to flip scum.

[AxleGreaser]

Axle, are you an alt?

Nope. Beeswax?

Spoiler: more

This is a newbie played by me as a newbie. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=52906
If that Q is due to me forgetting who I played with, twice. Its because i read a truck load of games. So i have in fact read many Mala games. So I am mixing up familiarity from reading, and familiarity from playing. And during the first maybe 20 or so games i read before playing my first one I conflated two MS players in my head and mala was one of those.

[AxleGreaser]

The last few pages I finally realized that axle may be town soo~

yeah I stuck the oar in hard.
It would be nice if you did,

Well I am hoping it would be nice providing you are not keen on lynching non scummy slots (Max) or
barely better than a random chance of flipping scum (VG).

[AxleGreaser]

I think there is a pretty good chance that VeeGee flips scum.

Ok so why.

I see arguments that hes about as useful as tits on bull. 376 172 373

What I dont see at all is single thing at all that you claim is alignment indicative about VeeGee.

This seems like a more reasonable position.

I guess I maybe wouldn't mind a veegee lynch,

If I get backed into corner at the end of the day and have no wagon I want to lynch them, the question quick who is the least expensive player to lose if were wrong,
then I get VeeGee.

but you are leading a wagon on him? Please explain.

[AxleGreaser]

Thats weird. Mala is 4th 321

This is an argument?

only the TLDR of one.

at this point I will hand out town cred for noticing it existed and realising it was important.
Which whole lot better than the people voting the bad wagons.

[AxleGreaser]

Axle, VeeGee has refrained from providing reads, scum hunting and generally doing anything that I would consider pro-town.

Cool I thought I had granted as a given that it was true he was as useless as tits on bull.

Please show me how you know it is >>>refrain<<< and is not incapable.

[AxleGreaser]

Reactions obv

Can you think of single action that cannot be excused by such a universal excuse.

Spoiler: obvious exceptions

derp hammering at LYLO is not for getting alignment indicative reactions. et al

and what did you conclude?

[AxleGreaser]

If that's the case,why are you not more concerned about Zakk avoiding this alleged argument?

This one is all your argument, and i like it.

[AxleGreaser]

;-;

Spoiler: mainly ooc

I am really sorry, it wont happen after this (I really hope). and I liked both of them. and while they were actually significantly different as players, in my head they were like the front and back of a hand. And both hard for me to read, I think for similar reasons. Which is actually hence why I RVS'd you. I wanted to be able (if you wagon was stuck in park) to kick your wagon for no good reason, AKA without needing to go there after RVS. So its not like you weren't special to me. And just so long as being especially concerning is good for you, then were all good.

[AxleGreaser]

@Scorps 415 told you I liked it in 409 .
Egads it seems that I am psychic.

[AxleGreaser]

So has sonic!

mmm hmm

but I still dont want to lynch him either.

[AxleGreaser]

Axxle explain 400?

Are you asking me why I rather lynch sonic over Veegee? Or am I incorrectly applying 'he' and it should be applied to someone else

Its post primarily addressed to BBT.

I am concerned by his desire to lynch a read as his first choice early in D1 who i believe he cant be more a touch better or worse than random to flip scum.
I first verified that he indeed claimed to be more sure than basically random in the flip.
Then challenged for anything actually alignment indicative.
I got basically equating bad lack of protown play with scum. When it can easily be lack of cpability. Thus just confalting BAD with scum.

You got included in 400, as a more reasonable stance on VeeGee.

I find my stance outlined below that to be more reasonable still.
I am fine with lynching veeGee, but thats if we suddenly find ourselves needing quick flash wagon lynch or be faced with no lynch.

Spoiler: rephrased 400 for clarity

I think there is a pretty good chance that VeeGee flips scum.

Ok so why.

I see arguments (by BBT) that hes(VG) about as useful as tits on bull. 376 172 373

What I dont see at all is single thing at all that you(BBT) claim is alignment indicative about VeeGee.

This seems like a more reasonable position. (By Mala)

I guess I maybe wouldn't mind a veegee lynch,

If I get backed into corner at the end of the day and have no wagon I want to lynch at that time,
and i ask the question quick who is the least expensive player to lose if were wrong,
then I get the answer VeeGee.

but you(BBT) are leading a wagon on him(VG)? Please explain.

pretty much i was only talking about you not to you.
I State that IMO post 400 was confusing, and this is not Mala being oversensitive about being mentioned in passing. Sorry my bad. (I was a little excited and its 5am here)

[AxleGreaser]

I'd lynch MS Mala.

but your leading the wagon on VeeGee, and sytill havent explained why he scum and not just useless.

[AxleGreaser]

I'd lynch MS Mala.

but your leading the wagon on VeeGee, and sytill havent explained why he scum and not just useless.

BBT associate useless with scum and if they are town he just goes *well they were useless*

Indeed
which is a scum strategy, most of the times i have seen it.

or perhaps clueless town, but we already ruled that one out.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP possible more misunderstandings. (misuse of word wagon in the english sense of little red wagon)

;-;

Spoiler: mainly ooc

I am really sorry, it wont happen after this (I really hope). and I liked both of them. and while they were actually significantly different as players, in my head they were like the front and back of a hand. And both hard for me to read, I think for similar reasons. Which is actually hence why I RVS'd you. I wanted to be able (if you little red wagon(aka YOU) was stuck in park) to kick your little red wagon wagon(AKA you) for no good reason, AKA without needing to go there after RVS. So its not like you weren't special to me. And just so long as being especially concerning is good for you, then were all good.

[AxleGreaser]

Axle, VeeGee has refrained from providing reads, scum hunting and generally doing anything that I would consider pro-town.

Cool I thought I had granted as a given that it was true he was as useless as tits on bull.

Please show me how you know it is >>>refrain<<< and is not incapable.

[AxleGreaser]

o if me, axle, shiro, singer, notscience, and mala are all town

Well that would be true except you are scum.

I notice that you have not actually addressed why Max is scum.

AT all.

So one of the townies voting max REALLY SHOULD UNVOTE RIGHT NOW

otherwise one of his buddies might just end the day.

[AxleGreaser]

Btw mala I play extremely hypocritically as either alignment

So you claim to play the way you know is anti town, as both alignments.

The way you want to lynch people for playing, and you call THAT OBJECTIVELY SCUMMY.

and you do not compare for them whether or not they are playing just like they do.


Yeahhh.... that is about as hypocritical and scummy as it can get.

So will someone unvote Max and vote this scummy as guy.


Please.

Pretty Please even.

[AxleGreaser]

unvote

Soly because I want to wait till he answers my question and I don't want to risk anyone hammering while I am asleep before I have said answer

Way to go girl(?) BTW IKA does sometime just hammer. So I really needed that. Ta for being town. You had me little worried I was wrong for a while there.

[AxleGreaser]

oh and one more thing:

I'd lynch MS Mala.

but your leading the wagon on VeeGee, and sytill havent explained why he scum and not just useless.

BBT associate useless with scum and if they are town he just goes *well they were useless*

how is this bad in any way?

did i ever say it was bad and did i ever say you were supicious?

Well actually is there is lot you didnt say.

So while as far as I know lynching people for bad, instead of for getting a scum PM, is universally accepted as bad itself.

There is the problem that you may have to lynch them as people who play bad enough are reasonably unreabale, as they just dont do anything as either alignment.
But thats may have to, not prioritise lynching useless weak players for being who they are.

As you have pointed out what you have not said.

What are your views on BBT and Zakk?

[AxleGreaser]

unvote

Soly because I want to wait till he answers my question and I don't want to risk anyone hammering while I am asleep before I have said answer

I am glad you want your question answered but you do remember he was not

go out of his(max's) way to defend him(zakk).

pushing Zakk as town but just responding with his read.

and he did indicate where and why that read developed?

I am pretty sure zakk was not as overtly anti town in your game, with him.

We are up to zakk playing quite bit differently.

and while he had plenty to say about other people the guy he just put at L-1 not so much....

I am kinda amazed by what it seems to be taking to get third vote on Zakk. (maybe its that third vote thing?)

[AxleGreaser]

Anyone have any other questions for me, make it short and sweet so I can see and answer them easily

You could start with answering my ones that you have been dodging all game.

[AxleGreaser]

Here are 4 interesting ones.

@Axle: I'm sorry for being unhelpful before. I'll try to change that.

Why were you?
Your Intention was?

What on earth was shiny about that RVS vote. 18

Why anything but engage?

[AxleGreaser]

you're pretty useless yourself,

ur funny.

[AxleGreaser]

ATTENTION

@VeeGee

A number of my posts address statement as being about

you

rather than your play. I abjectly apologise. But I am defending you (by making sure any wagon on you has reasons) as succinctly as possible, which unfortunately happens by referring to you rather than your play. Soory/oops and or whatever.

There is the problem that you may have to lynch them as people who play bad enough are reasonably unreabale, as they just dont do anything as either alignment.
But thats may have to, not prioritise lynching useless weak players for being who they are.

[AxleGreaser]

Axl most importantly I want to see what made him go from likely scum to top of the town reads

I can see how someone with meta on him can justify a town read, but soly from this game and at the the top of the town reads ? I find it impropable.

Yeah Ok. {

B

l

u

s

h

} I missed thinking about how big that is. (Why red stripes? Flaggelation)

One tricky thing will be him remembering the context, how it seemed at that time,
if all my banging on about zakk has since changed his mind back at all.

but yeah i could do with hearing that. Not sure its claim worthy, considering my lovely shiny self proclaimed anti town playing wagon.

I want Max to say

I was scum reading zach and then

this and this happened and changed my mind. With this and this being something valid. He did bring the fact that,

I am not sure but need to check if it was at that time clear, in the thread, just how bad 193 was.

why zakk would play anti-town knowing it is anti town play if he was scum but that is wifom and hardly enough to put someone at the top of your town reads.

[AxleGreaser]

@Singer.

Hi, Singer. (if you are at all confused, it might be worth looking up every time(pretty much?) i ever start post with Hi and what its intent is.)

I, I, I, blub blub (picture me blowing bubbles) ....

but zip it. me speaking right now would be bad. So dont ask..
but I'll be back.

Ok so I am back to talk about my bubbles.
So I approve of the existence of a wagon and of pressure to see if anything pops. So I was "zip it".

but i really dont agree with some of your reasoning ... quite a bit.
I could just have a go at it. BUT
Max is currently talking to Shiro
and id prefer to discuss it with you, as with what i understand of your reasoning, I am little surprised that you agree with your reasoning,
and thus I want to give you space to clarify or modify it.

I must have some kinda town read on you eh.

[AxleGreaser]

Zakk is probably town, and besides that, I was getting kind of pissed at him being called a VI, or his posting style being called bad or useless, when that wasn't what I was seeing in his later play. It's kind of a thing for me, I don't like seeing people get insulted.

Ok go through his later play and tell me which bits you liked please.

[AxleGreaser]

@axle: i gave my view on zakk already

Yeah and I found what said di not indicate your view of his alignment

You read his iso and tell me how is not a setup of a VI.

did i ever say you were supicious?

Are you saying he is a VI so he cant be scum?

He claims his play is

Btw mala I play extremely hypocritically as either alignment so me thinking notscience is scum for things that I'm doing is just par for the course.

par for the course.

I claim he is dodging stuff and he is.

Thats not just being a VI. (using what i understand to be your definition of that word)

[AxleGreaser]

...wut.

I disagree strongly with some posts you made about Max shortly before 289
(apparently i cant do succinct and coherent. )

Starting here.

The fact that I thought it was ika's slot posting should already tell you that I would've scumread that post for it's flashiness instead of actual content regardless of who posted it,

Ok so "flashiness" is objectively scummy. I dont get that.
I like reads where people get compared with expectations of themselves. (your read justtransfers a read on Ika to Max , LOl wut.)

If we are not going to do that, compare people with expectations of them, then OMG we should all lynch VeeGee immediately.
(Well actually zakk, for being knowingly what he is would trump it for me)
But in both cases, we need to compare them with how they play, not misread them thinking they are someone else then apply the read anyway. That just seems wrong.

So why is the coloured post 272, scummy?

also this means you didn't comment on ika becaaaaause...

Exactly how much attention were you paying when you made that read?

I read the lack of snark in this as town.

ika hasn't posted yet. What's your read on him, singer?

Indeed through that whole period max kept his eye on the towny objective/intention ball and played.

He didnt react badly to being pushed.
and played cooperatively when I tried that out.
be aware just how well I think I know Max's style, temperament, and play.
(I read max reallllllllly hard when Played with him in my last game, (I was scum, I had to choose confirmed town Max, or the UNcc'd cop to take to lylo.(I was RB) So I had to choose whoever I reckon I could read and predict/puppet the best, I took Max. )

I got no sense of him trying to buddy me, and he had I am confident I would have felt it.)

[AxleGreaser]

Who comes up with a plan for themselves to purposely play badly and then not play badly

He didnt muck up on purpose. He made apush on me without realising what he was pushing.
he then backed out and tried to fob me off by town reading me.

What he didnt guess was I would read that worse than him actually going me with vaguely plausible reasons as it was RVS.
he didnt realise just how bad run away looked.

[AxleGreaser]

the opinion is that rigt now hes town for his recklass abundance. his play frankly mirrors how i played in my early days. however i know hes wrong

recklass abundance == reckless large quantity?

however i know hes wrong == wrong about what?

"his play frankly mirrors how i played in my early days." == is this how you played in your early days as either alignment? or just how you played?

[AxleGreaser]

OOC?

Axle: I always wondering why you let me live and killed the cop in that game. I'd forgotten to ask you in post-game. Also, I'm not sure how I feel about you saying that you could predict/puppet me well. I mean.. obviously you did, but still. My style has actually changed a lot, keep in mind that was my very first game on the site. Or have you read other games of mine?

Well kind of as i was scum, normally, why I did things like that is kind of not happening. But I have taken the lid of that, so i opened the line of questioning.
It wasn't so much 'puppet' as what I wanted was predictable. (puppet just the name for the one you cant lynch) I wanted to be able to know what you would and wouldn't consider in making your final call.

I understood you better. Swagrid I thought/worried might YOLO something.

I have been recently today been looking at a few other games of yours.

[AxleGreaser]

Why Zak is scum from his Recent plays.

The game state is I am now pushing hard to get Zalk lynched but the Max lynch is tantalizingly close.
Town Zak, is not under threat, if hes town there is still a lot of votes needed to lynch him. Zak does not have the excuse to vote Max because survival and counter wagon.

Scum Zak, is under threat because scum worries about stuff like that more than town.

What did Zak do. during 427 through 451

Well ghe talks about anything EXCEPT max.

and puts him at L-1, and wants claim... without even intent. Way to blue hunt.

Do you want more? The guy is as scummy as anything.

[AxleGreaser]

but his play is a lot how i would be in that i would not give a damn and basicly state what i think and disregard everyone and everything

and then what would you have done as scum and how would we have told the difference.

I see lack of intent in the "i would not give a damn and basicly state what i think and disregard everyone and everything"
i quite like people walking to the beat of their own drum. <3.

The latest flip onto max without reasons seems survivalistic.

[AxleGreaser]

but I WOULD like my question here answered, now.

do you mean this clarification. so now you want what he did scummy back then?

By recent play, you mean really recent, don't you? I was referring to the stuff from after when I replaced into the game, and that was a few days back.

243 345

But i will elaborate... nope found where i already did
TLDR: IF Zakk really believes the contents of 193 then the rest of his filter makes no sense, as he has just been standing around while all that went down without commenting before then
At no time before or after has zakk played like person who made post 193 and he himself believs it. Zakk knows and knew 193 was BS.

Zakk is not genuinely scum hunting.

Hes faking it.

Spoiler: Why 193 is actually very scummy when viewed in the context of the game.

So exactly why if hes town, is he basically not playing? from 18 to 193
I mean what is 181 except an attempt to post without giving away any connections. Its essentially RVS x 6.

If 193 is actually a legitmate set of reads.... and he truthfully believes they are not just crap....

Then how come in all that time he did nothign about Notscience When according to Zakk basically every post was objectively scummy.
and Zakk was ignoring it?

and then having now pronounced NotScience with such comprehensive set of reads where is the followup a towny, any towny, would do?
There is no self consistent continuity to his play at all.

nah... I have much simpler explanation.

Zakk does not believe the post by post reads in 193 either. Its just rubbish and he knows it.

[AxleGreaser]

He was saying notscience was scummy before then, and brought up all of those points in an attempt to get other people to agree with his case too. You're saying that those points were just to back up a read that he'd made up.

He had had some interest in NS before that ,the 18-76.

Spoiler: what he later says about the a same period

- notscience's #20 being immediately unhelpful right off the bat? (that's anti-town, by the way)

- notscience's #23 saying he doesn't want to go into stupid discussions that do nothing but clutter the thread, when in actuality this same post does nothing but clutter the thread? (that's anti-town, by the way)

- notscience's #23 saying "if you want to ask me a question about the game thus far, you can do so" but when I asked him a question before, he gave me a non-response? That's completely hypocritical, no matter which way you try to spin it.

- notscience's #25 saying "I'm telling you how it's going to be", which not only reeks of small-penis syndrome but also sets up a precedent for trying to control how others interact (which is scummy, by the way).

- notscience's #27 giving self-meta "I vote mala a fair amount, and she's probably going to RVS me, so.", at the same time as contributing nothing of worthwhile value to the thread.

- notscience's #48 saying "singer is likely town" (with no reasoning), and voting you, as if merely the presence of his vote on singer was able to help him ascertain her alignment, even though he had ZERO interactions with her during that entire time. This reeks of setting himself up to park his vote places until he decides they're town (with no reasoning), instead of voting for people he thinks is scum (which is scummy, by the way).

- notscience's #73 disagreeing that Axle is town, yet doesn't vote him. His vote is parked on mala, and it's remained there for the last three days, even when in post #82 he says he's "choosing to waffle instead of white-knight" you. Why would he be voting someone he'd otherwise be white-knighting? Especially when in #73 he says he "cant argue against scumread on Mala". This makes absolutely no sense.

[/quote]

What he did at the time does not gel with how strongly he later calls that same stuff scummy.
The later stuff 193 is made up. It not only hypocritical BS, he does not, and did not, believe it either.

[AxleGreaser]

They are flooding the thread with a bunch of hogwash

which you fail to refute, address answer or acknowledge.

- The game is suffering for it, and nobody is actually scumhunting scum, like me

(badly?)

so which is it that... you are the beacon of towniness and pro town behavior or

Btw mala I play extremely hypocritically as either alignment so

which is an effective admission you fit the bill for rather a lot of your claims in 193 about NS filter.

[AxleGreaser]

Also it's really really boring/annoying to read a lot of posts about myself

Well the way, if you were town, to have avoided that was actually do this.

@Axle: I'm sorry for being unhelpful before. I'll try to change that.

you didnt try very hard.

[AxleGreaser]

We are just on different wavelengths man

apparently no one is.

and nobody is actually scumhunting scum, like me

[AxleGreaser]

UNVOTE: Zakk

Hi,
Given your stated views on max, I am not sure I get why you are unvoting without at least choosing another wagon.

Also as I think Zak is scum I dont like the unvote, but that not the point i am making. Its the lack of doing something with the vote. Huh?

[AxleGreaser]

VOTECOUNT 1.05

(5)

MaxwellPuckett

—

singersigner, notscience, Metal Sonic, Shiro, ika, [Zakk]

MS, ika and Zakk are by far and away the worst votes on this wagon.

Ika, can you just clarify why you're voting Maxwell for me please?

i cant yet due to another game

You can identify what in this game it exactly is.

I didnt find this helpful.

i posted earlier on how much i have decided ot read up. but anyway

VOTE: maxwell

[AxleGreaser]

@Singer

476

Your wagon is still the lead wagon, the alternative VeeGee, at best, has barely more than random of flipping scum and my feel is a bit less than random.
but I have been doubt casting your wagon pretty hard. (or vetting it it for scum on it with no actual reasoning)(maximising value of any flip it does get)(depending on how you want to look at it)

So if I am wrong and it is the best wagon, we ought talk... sometime when you choose.

I still think Zaks the best wagon, and significantly better than the alternatives I would go for.
Losing my only other vote on it is but starting a new wagon with a weaker case would be worse.

@Thread

. Come on guys lynch scum! or at least fail while trying.

[AxleGreaser]

@Axle, I have not stated any views on Max,

Sorry my bad I must have misremembered something.

Right now I read Zakk,Mala,Shiro as my top 3..

I'm not "stealing arguments"(because this one actually was),but I agree with Singers comments on Mala's genericism. I've also taken Singer off my top 3 for Shiro.

Thats odd I like singers slot. But my singer read is usually weird(nvr played singer but read) I usually read singer as town (default)(Im biased) until I dont. Then I console myself by pretending someone hacked the account and as it just doesn't feel like singer, so its scum. But i like singers slot FWIW.

I dont like shiros buddying with BBT and then focusing on me like he did yesterday. I read BBT as town and suspect Shiro is trying to associate her behavior with his..

Going with Shiro,for now. Maybe drum up some responses. There really is no wagon for any of my scums right now,I would support a lynch on
of my scums today..
VOTE: Shiro

I will go have look at your Shiro reasons, but I have played with Shiro before and (unless that sways me a lot) off my own bat wont vote Shiro as being better than random to flip scum, AKA some actual feels based town read.
but i have seen Shiro attract attention from townies before.

[AxleGreaser]

@Scoprious Yeah Ok I will agree that looks interesting 508 Felt weak when i read it but i had my eye on other balls.

[AxleGreaser]

@Axle: I'm sorry for being unhelpful before. I'll try to change that.

When Exactly were you you planning on changing that?

Why were you?
Your Intention was?

What on earth was shiny about that RVS vote. 18

Why anything but engage?

So far you have done nothing to explain yourself.
4 pertinent game relevant, alignment relevant questions.... and nothing.

Note the first two are not stop why did you stop beating your wife questions, Zakk needs to explain what he was intentionally doing at the start of the game.
Especially including the last two questions.

Until he does I have no town stories that explain his play.
If hes town he is thus pissing my slots town vote down the drain.
except hes not.

[AxleGreaser]

Hi, I am not probing you for your read, feel free to ignore this and post what you think is relevant.
The following content does however show you where i am at, and may provide clues about what you need to say to get me to your point of view.

---

Re 546
Given it looks like people, wont vote and/or are walking away from Zakk. I feel bit flat footed.

I don't regret jumping up and down a bit on the Max wagon, it will make reading who and why easier if it flips via lynch or kill.
I don't like Zakks flop onto it, posting fluff about everything else, didn't like the call for claim at L-1 instead of waiting for someone else to call intent.

Re: Nosferatu.
Why would a green newb replace out of game where as town they were getting grief, pressure and seemingly only making mistakes? (AKA can happen)
Why would a green newb replace out of game where as scum they were getting grief, pressure and seemingly only making mistakes? (AKA can happen)
yeah it is alignment indicative to a degree, as would a variety of in thread responses.

---

This section dances around what I cant say, by saying things only about this game. meh best i can do.

I have however, been considering 538 and read more (stuff)
This gives me an itchy ("I know something you dont")("gunna laugh in the post game") kinda feeling. (either that or its just friendly: aka sorry max)

Axle: I always wondering why you let me live and killed the cop in that game. I'd forgotten to ask you in post-game. Also, I'm not sure how I feel about you saying that you could predict/puppet me well. I mean.. obviously you did, but still. My style has actually changed a lot, keep in mind that was my very first game on the site. Or have you read other games of mine?

But i have had that itch before and it flipped town. but it made me look, after Ika's post.

---

Possible talking points

So as while i have question to Ika in the thread 538, and i want an answer. (as that will help with Ika and max)

Can you explain to me what problems you have with Maxs ISO.

Which bits while looking (superficially(AKA to me))towny do you disregard as its plausible a scum with sufficient skill can do that?
Which bits look scummy?

Shiro made this point.

Axl most importantly I want to see what made him go from likely scum to top of the town reads

can you drive that one home?

That point is hard for me to judge as:
Its hard for me as I dont see how anyone reads Zak as towny... I see the later stuff as meh. So I can ask how does Max, go from

Zakk gets a townread from me because... holy shit read his posts?? Like the notscience case and read are bad but beyond that, he makes cases, tries to figure things out, blah blah blah generic shit.

whereas i see

okay guys. i re-read the thread and went through everything meticulously.

Shiro is town.
AxleGreaser is town.
notscience is scum.
Metal Sonic is scum.
BlueBloodedToffee is town.
singersigner is town.

Lynch accordingly.

I don't see curiosity and finding out stuff he didn't know or wasn't clear about.
Eg how Zakk got/flopped 450 on the Max wagon.

BUT

and thats a big one.
That is basically everyones position on Zak. I cant scum read everyone, so whats special about Maxs position

[AxleGreaser]

The comment about my tunneling served only to discredit my read which was based almost entirely on Nos at that point.

which you had previously claimed was a tunnel

I admit I'm tunneling but I have no reason not to at this point.

I can describe this as inquisitive, accurate, and based on reading.

Singer, what specifically in that post is bothering you? Or is it just not good enough to overturn your self-proclaimed tunnel on a lurker?

So I dont agree with "served only to"


You were not explicit about the colours post.

That you didn't even seem to know Ika was a viable person to give read on really could throw the guy you claim to be tunneling for bit of a WTF.
Some people might go right off at that point.

Max doesnt, from my experience.

[AxleGreaser]

You can identify what in this game it exactly is.

I didnt find this helpful.

when i say i cant due to another game it means i cant say anything other then "its another game"

Indeed you cant, but there must BE stuff in this game, that is pinging you even though you cant quote why.
That you can say.

[AxleGreaser]

You can identify what in this game it exactly is.

I didnt find this helpful.

when i say i cant due to another game it means i cant say anything other then "its another game"

Indeed you cant, but there must BE stuff in this game, that is pinging you even though you cant quote why.
That you can say.

state

which posts in this game

, are causing you concern.

DO NOT mention anything not in this thread,

but do state

what bits in this thread are where the problem is.

That you can do and is what i am asking for.

[AxleGreaser]

But for now, yeah. I don't want to lynch Maxwell. Reactions were good there too

LOL the fuck WAT.

You drew a claim

Also, you should claim now Maxwell

for a reaction that you dont even have the decency to explain, you just going to move on to the next fruit and try for another claim?

Why did you ask for claim if it was ONLY ever a reaction test.

Short easy to answer question. Go.

[AxleGreaser]

I admitted it was a tunnel because I specifically had no reason to drop the point. It unfortunately gave Max the opportunity to discredit any answer I gave because it would only cause people like you to dwell on that point instead of taking it at face value.

Well it wouldnt cause me to dwell on that point.

From Maxwells POV.
Your post showed that you were not even aware IKA was not posting so there could be no read.
Your stated you were in a tunnel.

I think he is entitled to try and find out if you are serious at all, and to try and find out more specifically what you idnt like about that post or was it still >just a tunnel<.
Which is >all< it would be if you really didnt know who had posted, and who was still AWOL.

Asking if you are paying any damn attention at all to this game when you don't know who is even in the fucking game.....
(if he had gone there... that to would have been a proportionate response from many players)(max no so much)

but yeah, making points seem smaller, is troubling when you feel like you are batting a 1000.

I found this pair unsettling

I'm liking Axle's continued push on Zakk to try and work out what Zakk was doing.

I should add that I have started missing Axle's posts and would probably PL him.

Why do you policy lynch people making pushes that you like?

Well that is unless you want to suggest that people (or someone in particular) that they start ignoring my posts.

Paranoia is cheap.

[AxleGreaser]

its entirly how hes playing ax. its not about his posts. its about his style

Ok that helps rather a lot. (infinity is reduced to really big number..and seriously that is a big step)
Can you identify any particular post or posts where his style stands out.
And as that style is in this game you could mention what aspect of his style in this game.

Confident/timid/smug/cock sure/self doubt/methodical/careful/open to fault/closed/helpful/cheery/happy/enthusiastic/bored/...
even if its hand wavy, I find humans to be complex multidimensional beings,
They have many aspects to their personality. (and its expression/style)

[AxleGreaser]

It was another fucking game that I can't talk about so drop the fuckin point that I didn't realize ika wasn't posting in this one because I mixed up who I thought replaced who and then saw ika posting elsewhere ok? Geezus fuck Axle figure it out.

Cool... It gave me no concerns, I don't really give a toss why you were confused, however that you were is a thing that max saw and responded to and it explains his reaction to me.
It wasn't just a smear. (not to an outsider who isnt you)
BTW. I read you on other stuff. I have a dozen boring explanation for confusion. I fsked up and thought i had played with mala before. Shit happens. i have other evidence you are paying attention.

but my point still stands Max doesnt know that either.

He sees you posting and being confused about who is even in the game.
You claiming you are tunneling
and you making a confusing/confused statement about his post

So he asks if its just a tunnel. Wondering how serious you are is pretty legit.

That is reasonable thing for a towny to do, it (that point) doesn't make him scum nor strongly indicate it.

It was not just discrediting you, that was not the purpose of the words.

Now i can drop it.

[AxleGreaser]

Sorry about that.

I had totally ignored this, and hence did not even notice it

red flagged

something because you said "cant really" so I stopped thinking about it.

Re: the ika comment...I can't really explain why I misunderstood the lack of comment there, but I'll admit I made a mistake there and leave it at that.

In considering this

Re: his reaction to being pushed...as a leading wagon you can't really afford to be pushed regardless of alignment. I personally felt he had no choice with someone who was pushing his slot already.

The comment about my tunneling served only to discredit my read

which was based almost entirely on Nos at that point. ...

it is 100% irrelevant why you were confused, we are only interested in what max can reasonably have known. Sorry you felt any need to explain, but there wasnt any need, as it was 100% irrelevant that there is a why. As max did not know that at the time.

max sees

Singer claims to be tunneled.
Singer

appears

confused who has even posted. (even if you(singer) are not confused or have a reason, how it appears is what max has.)
Singer has flagged the tunnel, is for " I have no reason not to at this point."

and he want to know if that was just insufficient reason to stop the tunnel or if you have a specific objection.

You stating it was IIOA would have been the response and explanation he was seeking.
I see no discredit, i see information gathering.

[AxleGreaser]

Do you expect to be killed early?

I _always_ try for that. Personal preference.

Id suggest not following this line of questioning.
If you would like to discuss the OOC comment above then after the game will be fine with me.
Youre BAD. Feel bad.

I have strong preference for not being vigged, though. I tried that once didn't like it.

[AxleGreaser]

Axel I am clearly not going to convince you that someone who started off scum won't change alignments due to a replacement so just stop. If you disagree with why I think Nos was scum, and why I think Max's entrance to the game didn't serve to change my mind, then whatever, to each his own. Either explain why you think that makes me scummy or you can try your hand at convincing me someone else is worth voting instead of hard defending my biggest scum read. I'm usually easily convinced I'm wrong but I've been on a streak lately so good luck.

No.
I explained what was wrong with 46(et al) in 55 I saw it too.
I will even say sorry for standing on you read there but i wanted the game to go faster, due to timing of Zaks weekend and my estimation of what i wanted out of the day..

"I am clearly not going to convince you" I started the conversation with you recently because (as i mumbled about but am also prevented from saying.... )(<<<thats pregnant pause.)
I had been given pause for thought, by Ika, over my Max read. <<read between the lines pls.

I looked at who was on the wagon, and decided you had the best rational clout to explain it to me. I am however not of the All hail Queen Singer variety, I will need to understand.

I see your scum tells and mainly acknowledge they are. (but i dont like the discredit one to almost zero, I think that is you looking at it from the personal point of view.) The others are a matter of differing degree.
However, I also on balance believe I saw curiosity finding stuff out and scum hunting.

Do you have views on how and why Max's read on Zakk changed and how much. Does that seem implausible to you? (AKA Shiros point)

Re: "Either explain why you think that makes me scummy", err i started this 547 by trying hard to make it clear that nothing i said should be taken that way. So that would be weird and i would have to lie.

Re: "Instead of hard defending my biggest scum read. I'm usually easily convinced I'm wrong but I've been on a streak lately so good luck."
Cool, that also part of why I chose to talk to you.
BUT FYI:First three reads in masquerade flipped scum. (after that lRL titlted me.) The game I read for reals in real time in the teams, 3 for 3 scum (aka 10 townreads), I feel pretty good lately too.

I think Zakk is scum. I will have a think about it and get back too you, if i think I have snow balls chance in hell.
Other reads i have are weaker and probably depend a bit on how i think they reacted to the first few pages. (my hiding in the bleechers stuff)
I am currently looking for a least bad end to the day, if I cant get Zakk to fly/swing.


Either that or we PL people 196. In fact I dont, mind the idea of a proper forum PLing people. I don't like that getting subverted, for actual discrediting such as BBT did in 104 contradicting 102. So in practice for while I have been against scum abusing the PL process. I also would prefer PLing voluntary choice driven behaviors, rather than simply PLing people for who they are. That seems BAD, not just scummy, but actually BAD, the kind that doesnt wash off when the game ends. So for it seems to be a dangerous slope to play on.

[AxleGreaser]

I hear this.

I will not be convinced that anyone playing in Nos' slot is town.

I just didnt feel that strongly about the NOS slot before that. I even thought your "lynch it, lynch it now before replace " post, was posturing. I see now you meant it.
I got lit up when my scum read Zakk flopped onto the MAx/Nos wagon in such a scummy way.... I pounced a bit.

I'm just really agitated that I can't seem to explain what I'm seeing. I get what you're saying about Max coming in and seeming curious, etc, but replacements are inherently town-sided because they see things the original players didn't.

That explains something I will reread from scratch with clean mind. I have been taken and utterly fooled by that before. (my first newbie)(My 7'th game IRL)

[AxleGreaser]

Singer is also feeling less town

Ok explain that one.

[AxleGreaser]

Ok so my earlier stuff didnt sway you...
Can someone explain to me like I am 5 why we cant just lynch this.

Also,

you should claim now Maxwell

But for now, yeah. I don't want to lynch Maxwell.

Reactions were good there too

and then you explain that with

I don't like wagons-to-claim

HUH? you just did one.

@Thread.

Even Zakk doesnt like Zakks play

[AxleGreaser]

Those who are doing next to nothing are hell of a lot of a better lynch. Sonic, even veegee, shaddowez. Are three to name. Sonic is such a better lynch than me. Im at least scum hunting, giving reads out. He's not.

Mala, (not Hi, also not coming at you kk?)

I find you hard to read reliably. Normally when reading a game I have to just wait. But i have never had the opportunity when reading you (not playing) to poke,so this is experimental.

So I have, and am, waiting for a light to come on in my head, so that i can see what col

o

r

it is. This however is odd.

You have an accurate estimation of just where near the bottom of the barrel you rate and that you are "safe" because there are enough better lynches.
That looks like you have been using you skill for non towny objectives. (safe coasting)
Do you have more words.

@Thread, (yeah I am hot on Zak) but i would lynch people other than Mala, today, As i said "I find Mala hard to read reliably. Normally when reading a Mala game I have to just wait."

@Mala Oh look i just gave you free pass to lurk D1 foreva when you play me.... Pls dont think that it would be sad as 3/4 times you will be town. yeah it takes time, and then it will take time to turn around. So no you need to be accumulating consistent behaviors.

[AxleGreaser]

Hypocrisy isn't a scumtell. There are situations where you ask for a claim, regardless of how you feel about it.

Yeah intent to hammer.

Posting something that you are doing for reactions and asking for claim at L-1 instead of intent.... is not one of them.
That what you do when you think its what your scum buddy should do and the cred if it goes through wouldnt be half bad.

Zakk had no commitment or belief in the wagon, he just voted it and said claim.

That is not one of the situations

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP (sorry i hurried)

Hypocrisy isn't a scumtell. There are situations where you ask for a claim, regardless of how you feel about it.

Yeah that situation is @intent to hammer.

Posting something that you are doing for reactions and asking for claim at L-1 instead of intent.... is not one of them.
That is what you do when you think its what your scum buddy should do and the cred if it goes through wouldnt be half bad.
That is what you do when you think the towny, claiming is better than nothing.

Zakk had no commitment or belief in the wagon, he just voted it and said claim.

That is not one of the situations

[AxleGreaser]

Axle, zakk isn't scum.

The way he responded to me bruising his pride was town as fuck.

Ta I will look.

[AxleGreaser]

Rather, why does scum-zakk keep repeatedly pushing me when I'm a non-popular wagon, when it is blatantly obvious that his pride is bruised. As scum he can just use that as a copout to slink off somewhere.

One set of association tells.

[AxleGreaser]

And you've finally figured out what's called an "interpretation" of someone's play. (well I'll probably still apologize because I'm been a bit of an ass).

[AxleGreaser]

Hi, (Life lesson?)

And Axel, I swear to gawd if you respond one more time breaking

our

singers "agree to disagree" by trying to convince me you're right, then I will personally ignore the ever living fuck out of you for the rest of the game. I get you're trying, I get it, and I appreciate it,

You may read scum really well but your not reading me too well. Im not agreeing to disagree, because you have been winning?

(not sure I am swayed on Zakk, but i am clearly not lynching Zakk today.)

Right now I am counting votes to make sure i dont derp hammer Max.

This is going to turn into another Genesis Mafia where I'm the only one scumreading actual scum, and scum are content letting town duke it out internally until they implode. I can already see it.

Please read the book Dune, "fear is the mind killer."

@Mod Can we have an official vote count please.

[AxleGreaser]

I dont mean this but it will make me feel better while I wait for an up to date VC.
VOTE: VeeGee

I wan to be sure whether i am voting or stating intent.

[AxleGreaser]

GEEZUS FUCK VEEGEE WHAT ARE YOU DOING.

I don't know whether to add him to my short list or defaul him to the too stupid to be scum category.

WHY IS THIS GAME MAKING ME SO ANGRY.

I dont know and that is the only thing ever given me pause for thought about you.
However "GEEZUS FUCK VEEGEE WHAT ARE YOU DOING." is a mind meld moment so there is that.

Yeah i have counted carefully,
NotSci and Zakk Got Off since last VC
NotSci and mala Got on Max. (mal didnt mumble the L-1)

VOTE: MaxwellPuckett

L-1

. But we should I expect wait for him to come back
and this time i noticed Ika is already on this wagon.
but I dont see this day doing more useful stuff.

Personal Summary: I failed hard. I either failed to find scum or failed to get them lynched, my bad. And singer thinks shes having bad day?

[AxleGreaser]

(where i expect will have things to say)(on the off chance)

FTR: I have nothing of value to say in twilight.

[AxleGreaser]

So

@Zakk

which one are you wanting town cred for.

Knowing Max is scum all along.
Or drawing the claim then getting off because now you know hes town? (and a VT)

[AxleGreaser]

(where i expect will have things to say)(on the off chance)

FTR: I have nothing of value to say in twilight.

nice lining up lynches.

Its Ok he cant be scum becuase of ... IDK I forget now. ITT.

Wow I am psychic again

[AxleGreaser]

Prodge.

Will get to this later today.

unlikely.

[AxleGreaser]

VOTE: Shiro

[AxleGreaser]

It's called "let people answer their own questions" game!

I like that game and

all

its variants.

Spoiler: ooc mainly

OH. FYI: If you think you see a new line in my sig its an illusion. In this game my only sig is preceded by a 1. I will tell you if I change it.
As its still well pregame ... #2 refers to pregame Axle in a different game which will, after it starts, be ongoing. But even now it is well outside the scope of this game.
Although if you really want to, I am also pretty go with the flow in this game too, but that is just by chance.

[AxleGreaser]

FYI: I hate trying to read the game when ships are passing in the night not even seeing one another. So to be sure everyone is on the same page.

I doubt there are 4 scum..

it would have to be bastard game where the host lies for it to be 4 so I doubt it a lot.

This game will start with 13 players. Three (3) players will be Mafia aligned and ten (10) players will be Town aligned.

BTW> I don't mind anyone having 3 strong/sure scum, when there are only 2 scum slots left. Especially when we have at least 3 lynches.

So I have no problems or at least very few

[AxleGreaser]

@Thread

Hi I have played pretty close to half my games where scum have day chat. It changes stuff. It even changes stuff even when they dont actually actively use it. (because they know if they need to they can, say hey man WTF are you doing.. So distancing pushes can be harder and less tenative. (for starters)) I started wondering yesterday if scum had an encrypter.

singer, ISO this guy and learn stuff. The confbias potential after knowing his alignment is great

i.e. how not to play scum

be careful.
and when anyone ISO's max, do remember he was an encrypter, and could if he chose discuss his pushes while he made them, or just how much of what connections he and his team wanted to leave behind.
Discussions such as this can happen. (an example)
What are your guys' thoughts about distancing from each other vs buddying? I'm doing the "maintain a healthy friendship lack but still consider her town for playstyle" thing with LLD but also kind of butting heads with her. Then for Quaroath I believe I will waver a bit and look for excuses to find you scum, but really I'll be looking for excuses to call you town.

Strategically, the scum only have to be as weak as their strongest player, if the individuals have the ability to do what the plan is.
Some scum QTs even with day chat have the players effctively play their own game.

Also FYI: and meta..... really dumb people might have a previous scum game where they played exactly like X and did well then just do it again. People with more cards up their sleeve might do something else a bit different ,that might especially be so if the game structure is vastly different.

@Singer

. As well as directing traffic. You get to, call the pace.

[AxleGreaser]

Wait wtf?? Since when am I a scum read?

try actually reading what the basis of that read is.

Me, I think your both scum, and Shiros position on that point still makes sense. Its read without meta, as was requested. As stated yesterday Shiro read on you was based on claimed "dot for dot" comparison to yesterday. You know your play is this games, is ahem...
hypocritical in that it highly resembles things you define as objectively scummy.

You know that without Shiro claiming your meta as the excuse, your play would look scummier than, 2 week old stool sample left out in the rain. (no reasons, no answers, no play, blah blah.)

but sure chat with your buddy. Distance, cuddle, I dont care. But do please read their posts.

[AxleGreaser]

That means

Ta but i usually work out what the thread means for myself.
If mafia and association tells were as simple as you claim, and scum don't talk to one another ever, even when they have an encrypter.
Then the game would be boring.

Max had town read on you that, Shiro 'thought' came out of nowhere. Shiro and Max then go on to discuss why one of them thought you were 'scum', while only both only ever talked about how town they thought you were and why.
A sweet heart deal.

Now if you are town... why are you not worried by how hard they were buddying you?

[AxleGreaser]

Is BBT gonna get prodded?

do you have anything to say about the posts people made in the game?

[AxleGreaser]

Shiro is

definitely town

.

I know I'm town and

I am off and on about Shiro

and Sonic is the one I like scum out of Shiro/sonic.

@Mala

Hi,
Which are you and why?

[AxleGreaser]

@MALA

Sorry last question is actually optional. Answer or not at your choice.

[AxleGreaser]

Shiro is

definitely town

.

I know I'm town and

I am off and on about Shiro

and Sonic is the one I like scum out of Shiro/sonic.

@Mala

Hi,
Which are you and why?

This is almost irrefutable evidence that Malakittens is town, btw

So as contradicting yourself is quite easy to do... if you want to. And we know that you read that as irrefutable evidence of town(from some people). You are now easy meat to endgame as the puppet.
Well either that or you just make stuff up as convenient, and dont actually believe anything of what you say.

[AxleGreaser]

This is almost irrefutable evidence that Malakittens is town, btw

LOL

Your top town pool...

Probtown:
Axle
Singer
Notscience
VeeGee

Oh also VeeGee, he's not a town read either.

So i take it you would like us to think of you are irrefutably town too because you also dont remember what your read are.
Apart from expedience what changed your VeeGee read since 727. Iso iso from 727

nvm I found it

I'd say that zakk (Yes, you.) is suspicious

[AxleGreaser]

And btw let me get this straight, you think I am scum because zakk who you are sure is scum, by being meta townread from me while I had a conv with max about his towniess makes me scum ?

Nope.

[AxleGreaser]

@Notscience @MalaKittens @BBT

Girls Girls Girls can we just lynch scum now?

Why I read Shiro play at the end of D1 as Scum.

Why Shiro is the lynch for today

Spoiler: What this is not: Singer Shiro Hammer

Singer reacts to just the hammer here

Oh ok so Shiro's probably scum for that hammer, wtf, dude?

and while for me that's a point, I think I tend to read a less into that.

So a Hammer of scum, is not problem. Hammering that scum was person Shiro was voting earlier not a problem. Its the how and the reason that is then provided.

My largest problem is Shiro and the scum hunting of max and whether it makes sense or not.

TLDR: The evolution of Shiros read on max does not follow a natural progression, it is not a real townies read, its scum.

Note this read is NOT preflip association, it makes sense white knighting a scummy looking towny(Zakk), or defending partner who is in a bit of trouble with some people(Axle,scorp) in the thread but thread sentiment is still basically Ok.

Shiro starts off being concerned about Max's alignment, but discussing it by challenging Max to provide reasoning that Zakk is town. And to explain Max's read, changing from starting scummy to top of town.

Spoiler: details

SHiro 349 352

Also yes I find it improbable that someone without knowing zakk's play can see his play as town without something to grasp on let alone defend him.

Max's Wagon gets to L-1 and i ask for someone to unvote. Shiro does, saying:

Soly because

I want to wait till he answers my question and I don't want to risk anyone hammering while I am asleep before I have said answer

(emph added)

Shiro has this discussion with max: 466 473 479 and concludes saying

To have someone as top townread it means you have a form of certenity that said person is town. I cannot find where you drew that certenity from.

and is quite willing to move to pressuring lurkers. 508

I think I am ready to join
VOTE:vegee

While talking about everyone else.

Shiro is satisfied with max's response and claims to have have a range of suspicions.

Two votes go OFF Max and two new ones come on. There appears to be an elegant sufficiency of people who find Max Scummy.

I state

I wan to be sure whether i am voting or stating intent.

Which pretty much welds me on

, as I am prepared to either hammer or L-1 at this point. 643

Shiro gets off. 664 665 With the claims
Shiro's position is justifiable in terms of Shiro's reads.
Is worried about there being more wagon changes.... its a D1 lynch. Shiro were are prepared to just lynch VeeGee "dead weight lynch" so you cant be confident that max is scum, but Shiro was worried that specific other people might get lynched.
and the bad part of that from a town Shiro's perspective would be...?
One unsure lynch is replaced with another and whole bunch of vote swapping and play and interactions? (yeah no)

He would have come back talked like he did before Axle would have possibly unvoted and maybe someone else as well and based on what I see we might have had a Mala or zakk lynch.

Yeah no I was clearly now welded on.
Even if i did... people getting on and off wagons is good way to find scum.

TLDR:

What makes no sense is the flip back to this as "The only lynch Shiro want today"(paraphrase 665), after walking away from the Max wagon 508, after having had the discussion that Shiro said they unvoted to get. (466 473 479)

I also have sundry gut things based on language choice and state of mind, but they never make sense to anyone but me. So we'll call that gut.

keywords: Case Shiro Singer Hammer / continuity inconsistent reasons.

[AxleGreaser]

Axle's Scum
Shiro and Zakk
If they are not both scum
Id start looking in
Shaddowez
Ika
maybe MS (as its a weird not scum read, so I have no idea what it would take for me to flip the read)

but they'd be subject to small amounts of info changing the order

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP (of sorts) 926

The get off Max and onto VeeGee was

way stronger than I posted

. (apparently my memory was better than my fact finding)

@Max I still don't get it Iike, your townread on zakk but you seem to be legit about it

(note i got reminded of that by reading 770 which is a +ve for shodow.)

So Shiro got right off Max508(seem legit) and was satisfied, and comes storming back for a quick hammer...
(and the reason is to avoid anything less certain happening...)
yeah

No.
TMI.

[AxleGreaser]

Strange fruit

[AxleGreaser]

Do me a favor and point out some reasons why opening a lot of discussion is scummy,

TBMK bog standard, archetypal, answer is.
Lets you look busy without ruffling to many feathers.
lets you start shit but not take the heat.
feeling the thread out looking for the popular mislynch.
maintains a flexible position where you just claim, Oh I liked the reaction (as you were only starting discussion by voting and asking for premature claim...)

But for now, yeah. I don't want to lynch Maxwell. Reactions were good there too

How deep did you ask me to dig you this hole?

[AxleGreaser]

Axl the problem with what you say is that you assume I stopped scumreading him.

Nope.

These two posts 664 and 665 claim you re so concerned about people getting off his wagon and lynching someone else, that you just hammered to avoid that.
Other townies and scum doing that is how we work out their alignment its a thing town wants.
Unless you are **really** strongly convinced,that this lynch must go through because its on scum, then terminating discussion is straight up anti town.

You state

@Max I still don't get it Iike, your townread on zakk but you seem to be legit about it.

accepting the answer to the one question you really needed answered. 454 Shiro:"

Soly because

"

You were not gung ho for a lynch of Max.
You were prepared to run with lurker policy lynch. Shiro : "

A dead weight lynch

"

and as you cant get that you are suddenly Oh no I MUST lynch max today, right now?

Nah...

[AxleGreaser]

and now is an appropriate time for me to point out whats wrong with this read/reason.

Axle, zakk isn't scum.

The way he responded to me bruising his pride was town as fuck.

You're going to need a bigger gun, if you wanna even leave a mark
much bigger(video link)

[AxleGreaser]

I didn't go Oh no I must lynch max today right now.

but that is what you did. had the lynch right now.

I went "Hm by allowing this to go further there is a good chance mala or zakk will get lynched,I am scumreading him and it is day 1 so screw it"

and ended the day, and did not try and work anything more out.
and you had no lynch that was lot better than lurker lynch (VeeGee) What makes that look like good time to end to the day?

as for fear for your town reads safety... exactly how sure can you be they are town when you have no serious scum reads.

One of the people you want to save (Zak) has zero votes and is not voting Max. There is No hurry, if someone gets off and onto Zakk, he can be persuaded back for survival if nothing else..

Mala has no votes.

VeeGee your claimed best alternative wagon has second most votes and with your vote would be a respectable 4 vote wagon.

You hammered without reading the thread?

First I did not realise you were scumreading max a lot so I just assumed I guess that is my bad

VeeGee your alternate wagon is ALSO not voting, and you are worried you wont get a Max lynch through?

Naaaaah. I am Not buying what you are selling.

[AxleGreaser]

Yes they had no voted but a lot of people were willing to vote them

and you were at L-1 even if someone jumped off all you needed was them to vote out self preservation.

Can you say for certain that Mala or zakk wouldn't have gotten lynched because they had no votes on them ?

Of course not it is not risk free game. If they had then all the extra play would have been useful when eventually they and or Max was flipped.
(by endgame if it goes that long many people will be flipped having actual wagons on all of them is a good thing.)

I see Max(scum) was dead in the water, with so many people having "doh obv self preservation" reasons to vote him.
I see you hammering him and ending it.

I am not buying you were worried about town reads that were under no actual voting pressure of getting lynched.
When the second wagon, at the time was someone you wanted lynched as the alternate wagon, its kinda funny.

No because what I didn't wish to risk was some of the possible outcomes.

Possible outcomes was we run up more wagons and have more information in the late game when every body run up has been flipped or is playing at end game.

Pretty sure that in public, I am not convincing you that you are scum. So unless you have substantive things to discuss.
The following questions are rhetorical.

You claim you were worried town:Zakk and town:Mala would get lynched.

I claim you were not and its silly to think you could have been. (Only 1 vote was on Zakk)(You had not read the thread closely to see what was actually happening recently)
I claim you cant be so sure of your town reads, when you have no strong scum reads, as that makes no sense.
If your town reads are not all on this wagon because they are not worried about their own survival.... (and they are 100% sure they are town)
Why are you who is not 100% sure they are town worried for them?

Not buying it.

[AxleGreaser]

Why are you who is not 100% sure they are town worried for them?

So you are saying town should not worry about their townreads getting lynched?

You can never be 100% about anyone other than yourself does that mean all you should do is worry about yourself alone?

nope.

I am saying that you claiming to be worrying more than their town reads are is wrong, and that ought be obvious to you.
I am saying your excuse of worrying about town reads getting lynched so you stopped the days interactions is lame and wrong, and unbelievable.
It is far more parsimonious you are scum and cut your losses before town got more info.

Scum would worry about heir team mates far more than town should.

Your claim is not credible.
You claim to have such strong read on two townies that you want third one lynched when you were not strongly convinced the third one was scum
You claim to have those strong town reads despite barely having any other reads that were more than barely stronger than lynch a lurker(VeeGee).
You claim to then be driving the lynch through rather than risk there being more D1 play, In that play it is not credible that your town reads appeared to be in any immediate threat as previously described.
You claim to have not read the thread enough to know of my change in position. yet claim to be aware enough of thread sentiment to hold real fears that people with zero votes might get lynched, or that Zak with one vote and no real traction all day might get lynched.

Your claim is not credible.
and your last response disputes no facts just makes up preposterous claims about my position.

[AxleGreaser]

Infact remember blaze? Remember how I unvoted purely to ask someone else to vote him so I can hammer? We were early in the day. I did that that day because I was townreading the dude he had a guilty on. Blaze was a lesser scumread infront of Slandar and garmr.

PSA: Anyone trying to find this is going to have a problem.
Blaze is beast
Here is the post where Shiro wants to get off so Shiro can hammer.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6427332

It is not hammering to save town reads. It is a willingness to hammer.
It was a shoot out between a cop claim and a CC so it was down to either or.
It has no element of hammering without declaring intent. No element of avoiding weird implausible far off risks.
Either Beast or Reinoe was going to die that day. (shiro leaned one way)
I thought they were both non town factions.

[AxleGreaser]

Btw shadow do you realise what you are saying?

If you believe I am scum with VeeGee then you are saying I spend my day 1 pushing my partner then stopped to push my other partner only to go back and hammer the earlier.

I can see how someone can townread VeeGee and scum read me but scum read both of us? Sorry but that is dumb.

Pretty sure he didnt call out team. But has reads (lynch pool).

Him and MS are both still in my lynch pool for the same reason, however.

Its entirely reasonable for some parings in a lynch pool to be implausible.

[AxleGreaser]

It was a point as to how I am willing to vote one way for a townread eve. If it isn't optimal.

Compromise plays:
Yes, i have lynched actual townreads, even when it wasn't

optimal

(I 'knew' they were town and had hard defended all day.) but was only the best I could do. (no lynch was worse. and even though it was my townread the thread was never going to see it and then my town read derped hard, and i had 5 mins or less.)

Whats missing is being so concerned that

Instead of waiting it out and having a random last second switch to someone who I may townread I ended it.

Scum have particular people they are 100% convinced they don't want lynched instead of the current dead in the water guy.
Townies have other people who may or my not be scum/town.
Townies are trying find stuff out, scum are trying to make it happen.

There was no credible threat to people you have a strong reason to believe are town.
There exist people that play the game like it is all about them and what they want and think. You're not one of them.
You hammered like you are.

[AxleGreaser]

And less axle,

All aboard the discredit train.

I started the day naked voting and dodging the obv question, so as to give space...
exact;ly how much less aXle do you want... actually dont bother, I think i know.

suspending my disbelief for sec.
So if you were somehow town....
What you need to is to start playing the game and providing reasons, and active involvement. This post is value less 993 , and this 992 943 932 923
cut the empty posturing that swings around like barn door.

[AxleGreaser]

i already privided my imput

UNVOTE: UNVOTE:

cus i reserve rights to hammer

didn't want to call it in the thread at 970.
but Oh Yeah,
I am truely psychic this game.

Spoiler: @IKA OOC mainly

I have a long standing policy position on hammers http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5907654 (it is tempered by my win con)
Its strength varies from game to game and day to day.
However, I suspect I will have one rule for everyone else and a different one for you. I have no idea why. That might be bad a thing for me to say(self harming), but I dont care and i also have no idea why.
Also: This post 772 made me reconsider the validity of your VI call or perhaps just the size of the required gun. IDK.

[AxleGreaser]

It's about getting ALL the scum, and getting ALL the information you can, within reason

and thus you find Shiro's hammer really very bad?

[AxleGreaser]

You say I am not scum with VeeGee and neither zakk but we 3 are your top scum

hes VLA so to speed this up.
I think you are suggesting he said {Shiro Zak

Max

} scum is ruled out please quote where you think he said that.

[AxleGreaser]

Why are you so convinced the Shiro wagon won't go through? You and your other scumbuddies won't vote for them?

Here axl

THIS rhetoric question to zakk bloody implies that he think Zakk is scum with someone other than me or else it would make no sense.

Ahhh. That is what is lighting you up.
Ok I will wait and see what he says about that.

because

STOP
ANSWERING
OTHER
PEOPLE'S
QUESTIONS.

PLEASE AND THANK YOU.

is a sentiment I mainly usually share. No oopsies for me. atm.

[AxleGreaser]

I will just mention

scumbuddies

itself is plural. That is already a lotta scum.

[AxleGreaser]

'cuz hes scum, duh

Hi,
and your voting Ika, and a reason I am not voting Zak because i cant see that lynch flying for lack of support? huh.

I can lynch Zak or Shiro. If they don't both flip scum... I can enlarge it to include the, meh, maybe's.

[AxleGreaser]

Are you really trying to make sense of zakk?

That is like looking chuthulu in the eyes and saying hi

and yet you from playing one game with him are SOOOOOOO concerned about him (or

Mala

) getting lynched D1, that you rush a lynch (hammer without waiting) that you (as town) cant be certain of?

Trimming opportunities for last words by a possible townie, or a bit more association from a scum.

Without reading the thread and seeing as evidenced by 645, where i indicate i dont even need to visit the thread before hammer. So you have my blessing to hammer while i sleep. AKA BS I might be getting off, BS the train might change course.

err wat.

err nah.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: @Shiro fluff

I will just mention

scumbuddies

itself is plural. That is already a lotta scum.

I am not sure what you mean by that.

You are concerned that if Zak and his cum buddies wont vote you and there are only two scum, there is no room for you to be scum as well.
I noted that Zak and his (plural) scum buddies is already more than 2.
also 1044 for the win.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP

never mind you're now voting my other scum.
btw. Skip now thinks you are only the same shape as a cat.

'cuz hes scum, duh

Hi,
and your voting Ika, and a reason I am not voting Zak because i cant see that lynch flying for lack of support? huh.

I can lynch Zak or Shiro. If they don't both flip scum... I can enlarge it to include the, meh, maybe's.

[AxleGreaser]

30 =/= 15

[AxleGreaser]

tbh his play so far this Day hasn't been the greatest. He wanted the PR to claim so they out what happened with the NK and he's PR hunting soooo. his play hasnt been that town :s

Yes because his day 1 was a brilliant town beacon.

This is exactly why I found max top town read on him so odd.

So you're accepting mala's points about D2, and stating (implicitly) that there are unspecified '

non town beacon things

' on D1.

and yet you were wanting to instant hammer Max on the off chance that the wagon switched to mala (with zero votes at the time) or Zak (with 0) 666

Spoiler: lame L0Ls

I just noticed yeah i am a bit slow.
Scum was lynched, in post 666 if Fro99ers game of Fro9 mafia. Good thing i am not into numerology. IIRC Fro99er is into numbers.

In the recent past all the people voting Zak had got off. Zakk had got off mala, voted Max and swapped to VeeGee.

So going right past that.

Your read on Zak is based you say on meta, explaining all that non towniness (that you see).
We have discussed this before and you said:

Although I can see some similarities. I can also see why you say the two games are different now. Eh I got to think more of it but I still find him more town than scum.

What I would like is specific details how you find the scummy play in this game so similar to his town play and dissimilar to his scum play that you town read him.
and do so enough to rush the D1 lynch based on that.

[AxleGreaser]

Seeing as this isn't an open setup and I don't know how many scum there are,

....
....
....
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
STOMP STOMP STOMP

when you admit you're not reading posts?

This game will start with 13 players. Three (3) players will be Mafia aligned and ten (10) players will be Town aligned.

708

1016

1081 !

Sig change

1 New improved AxleGreaser now with half as many posts, and perhaps fewer words. (Aspirational.)

1 New Improved Axlegreaser now Moar table flips. (Actual)

[AxleGreaser]

Well I am up to flipping tables...
and i expect all we need is some brave soul to put Shiro at L-1 and magic_(tm) might happen.

So cautious people might consider stating intent to L-1.....
either that or just feign more igorance

[AxleGreaser]

So you are going to

explain

why you scumread Scorpious or nah?

I don't think I have a chance of driving that wagon so I might just lynch you instead.

Yiu have been avoiding answering that since the start of the day. What gives?

I just told you - I don't think I have the

presence

or the

town cred

needed to drive a wagon by myself.

Hey guess what you actually would not need either...

presence

or

town cred

.

if you had good

explanation

why Scorpious or anyone else was scum .If you have actually picked up on stuff i missed and it(your argument) makes sense then you have the best ally you can have.

However if you are scum and dont think you can or want to bully or cajole us into lynching your weak ass read, then by all means hold off.

[AxleGreaser]

Yeah, you do.

You can't drive wagons without town cred and/or game presence - that's pretty basic.

I know I'm not going to die so I can just do it tomorrow.

Yep, and with an argument, people who have thread presence can adopt it. (with "meh i have secret reason i wont tell anyone... you certainly cant get your lynch lynched today).

What part of it is scum behaviour?

and not present your argument today...
you could just post your reasoning today.
unless there is good reason not to.

[AxleGreaser]

It's really quite simple.

Indeed it is.

If it was a crumb, it's anti-town to point it out.

If it's something I thought might have been a crumb, but it turns out wasn't a crumb after all because by her own admission she does it in every game, then it's not anti-town at all. In fact it's pro-town because ...

nothing.


So are you actually that bad, or are you scum hoping we think so?

[AxleGreaser]

@thread hi.

twiddles thumbs

[AxleGreaser]

@Thread i have nothing important to say or do.
Except laugh. and maybe kibitz.

Mala read the thread carefully.

[AxleGreaser]

People other than me should decide whether to resolve
Mala BBT
or the Sonic demand of Zak at 1239.

first

It may probably be irrelevant to win loss. but meh, by the numbers.

[AxleGreaser]

i rather reslove mala/BBT fisrt

My bet, from the words in the thread, is that resolving Zak first would be better.

[AxleGreaser]

Lol we're 2 scum dead with 0 town deaths. We are very very close to a perfect win. Softs are not a problem at all, even a mass claim that last scum can't finish all the PRs lol.

My bet is we are playing for the difference between perfect win and a not quite perfect win.

[AxleGreaser]

Let's wait to see if zakk gives a right or wrong answer first.

I probably don't have an equal vote in this. But my math head suggests waiting is best.

pedit: and my scum read on zak probably also biases me that way, but I still think math says wait is better.

[AxleGreaser]

I would very much like a massclaim.

yeah but Zakk first...

[AxleGreaser]

A question of balance.
As is in the thread I have been good to lynch Zakk based on my reads for rather a long time now.

We have various claims.
Is there an argument against Zakk being scum based on

Town Rolecop, Town JK, 8xVT

VS

Encrypter Backup RoleCop Goon

Spoiler: my thoughts

My judgement of balance for this site is known by me to be poor and biased one way.
In that setup:
The town role cop has a 2/3 chance to get a non vanilla result if they check a scum. The RoleCop vs Goon is akin to cop vs GF.
The encrypt-er result is a red check, the "backup rolecop" check is more orange as the claim I am a town back rolecop is plausible.

Alternatively if The setup is

Town Rolecop, Town JK, Backup RoleCop 7xVT

VS

Encrypter ???? Goon

Then town is quite heavy on Role copness. The last ???? cant be goon as that would be weird even though against that much Rolecop power goons are effective power roles as they are GFs in that they return vanilla. It would however seem mean spirited to give two player detection roles that have two effective GFs against them.

So at this stage, if Zakk is a town backup RoleCop
all green checks seem to look like reasonably strong signs of being town.

I don't see such an argument, it looks quite reasonable setup to me. Hence the check on Zakk and the claim is null.
Which leaves me at wanting to lynch my best scum read who is not Mala or Sonic.

[AxleGreaser]

Failing a good argument, (one I believe) I will be voting Zakk.

[AxleGreaser]

as for an argument as to why I'm town, i would have had to know exactly what Metal Sonic was, and exactly what he would have claimed on me, before he claimed it, to formulate my response so EXACTLY to know exactly what he was thinking. i would have known that, exactly, as either a town backup rolecop, or a scum rolecop (scum wouldn't have a backup rolecop, just a full one). therefore, i'd know more about people's roles than I do, as a full scum rolecop, than as a town backup rolecop (who hasn't targeted anyone yet, because town hasn't had our rolecop flip yet).

Tit for Tat is setup where when you kill the full Role cop on the other faction your faction gets the power.
This would be a tat for tit related setup.

Well while its fine and dandy for you to say how much or little you know about other peoples roles. it is utterly irrelevant as scum if they were a role cop would not have said what they found out. As BBT did not flip scum we know scum either targeted BBT (a wtf play) or scum in fact did nothing the the night you claimed to have gone nowhere.

additionally, metal sonic never actually claimed rolecop before i claimed. and he STILL hasn't claimed (which is pro-town). so EITHER i made a big gamble and assumed he was a rolecop (because i wouldn't know what he was, if anything, or why he was thinking I was scum) OR everything is as I say it is; I'm a town backup rolecop,

or you are the scum backup role cop.

with an "oooohhh i see what's going down, and why you think what you think SO STRONGLY" reaction. because i know he isn't a cop with a guilty, i know he didn't track me anywhere (because i didn't go anywhere), etc. i know the only way he thinks I'm scum with that conviction is if he role-copped me and found out i'm a rolecop.

or your are scum back up role cop who also saw what was going down.

you seem like a reasonable and logical fellow... if a bit hard-headed. i'd like to appeal to that logic and reason now, if i may.

No problem my logic re-added the scenarios you left out.

1. it makes no sense for me to know why MS suspected me (i.e. not a cop, not a tracker, etc) unless i guessed (due to my own role) what he was

A scum backup role cop does. A full scum role cop seems perhaps little scum sided for this site's balance meta. So if you are scum I be guessing you are a backup not a full based on balance.

all settled then? good

nope
not even started to be logically dented by what you said. (when i include what you left out)

[AxleGreaser]

....

I really don't see back up as the scums pr tbh

This however is an opinion on balance? or something?

What is wrong with scum having their second PR as a backup role cop?

---

Scum get the hint there is town role cop. So they >fairly<(not ambushed by the setup) know the goon is actually powerful and not to be squandered.
backup role cop knows what to claim when caught. So there is one interesting role claim scenario.
Encrypter is a PR, thus it seems nice to give everybody in the scum team something special.
Scum have some solution to the JK which is find and kill the real RC then role cop the JK.

Town has JK and a RoleCop.
The town rolecop is penalised for playing lame and having to claim, which is a thing I like in designs.
The town JK becomes investigative if scum gets whittled down to one.

I kinda like the setup (lots of carrots and sticks), but it is plausibly considered scum sided on MS.

Questions:
If scorpious is scum can he be Jk'd and role coped on the same night?

Does, JK RCop, bRCop, vs Encrypter,G,G sound reasonable or is it highly likely any scum is going to be PR given that Encrypter goon have flipped?