California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[Skruffs]

/affirm, approve, pass, ratify, sanction

[Skruffs]

Dinner better be good.

I should like to stir the pot a bit to start things off.

• Vote: Adele, xyzzy, foolinc, logicticus, LoudmouthLee, No lynch, Mgm

Take no offense if your name is on that list, it is on there simply because I either am not familiar with your playstyle or, perhaps, am interested in hearing from you all first.

As I understand the rules (And I hope it is allowable to discuss this here, it seems as such) only Adele is being voted for, with a preferential treatment to lynch other people on that list.

Cool.

Votes/Unvotes not appearing at the bottom of the post are not counted. Tags removed. - Mod

[Skruffs]

Wow, four posts before I even said anything.
Zindaras, you will note you are not on that list.

I think group voting will incite a lot more suspicion than targetting a single player, jeep.

[Skruffs]

Cogito, for someone talking about 'critical thinking', you didn't really talk much before your vote hop onto me.

[Skruffs]

Ha, I skimmed over the rules for the list-voting but not the rules for regular voting.
Thanks, jeep.

• Vote: Adele
  , xyzzy, foolinc, logicticus, LoudmouthLee, No lynch, Mgm

[Skruffs]

Well, I would presume that it is the count himself who brought us here, friend and foe alike. The concept of uniting your best friends as well as mortal enemies, however, and then asking them to kill each other, seems a bit unusual, even by the Count's standards.


While I am touched to be the very first wagon of this game, I don't find the wagon itself to be at all interesting. Zindaras is pulling the "kill skruffs" card really early, but it's also only page three. The more subtle coaxing by CES, that is more worth looking into, in my eyes, at this time. And of course OMAN's hypocrisy is already noted.

Please also note that the vote counts are in alphabetical, rather than chronological, order.

"ALI, the Count's mute Nubian valet"
I hope that the mod was smart in assigning someone this role, if such a role exists. It would be a good role for a lurker.

What's funny is that everyone who's voting me is not on my vote list.

The other thing about vote lynches is that they can be changed at any time. What is up with beign suspicious of them right now? AT the beginning of day one, I have absolutely no reason to be more or less suspicious of anyone in the game. Mass-fossing people, for that is what it is, effectively, makes more sense (to me) than hopping on a wagon. and targetting a single person right off the bat. But, that's just the way I see things, and if someone else cares to contradict me, I welcome the argument.

[Skruffs]

I believe you misunderstood my intentions, LML. The reasons for voting those people are because EITHER I haven't played with them OR I would like to hear from them.

MGM is up there because I have never played with him. However, I have played in some of his games, so I have a sense of his style. You will note he is ABOVE all other players that were not listed, and BELOW no-lynch, which makes him MORE suspicious than other players in my eyes. I am not playing favoritism with him. If you were going to accuse me of favoritism, you would probably be better off picking on why I *did not* list some people. You didn't. You apparently have not thought very much about the actual mechanics of the Condorcet method.

Lastly, your second mis representation : OMAN IS VOTING ME. Are you asking for him to put me on his list TWICE?


I do have a dilemma to posit, now, thanks to LoudMouthLee's flailing about:
Gracious Mod
If someone doesn't care who gets lynched, as long as someone does, how would they represent that? Similarly, how would players that we absolutely don't want lynched (for example, a mason buddy, or a 'cleared' townie, etc) be represented in that system? Can we put "Everyone else, No lynch" as a list?

Tags removed. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting.

Please see the Post Content section of the rules regarding asking questions of the Mod. - Mod

[Skruffs]

Third misrepresentation - MOS's system was similar to drawing names out of a bag. When a number is rolled, he rolles a dice with one less side to represent the pool-1 situation. Repeat as needed.

If you feel that MOS was not really random-rolling, then why do you think he placed everyone in that order?

[Skruffs]

LML - why don't you have no lynch in yours? Taking your point forward, isn't it odd that you would rather see ANYONE get lynched then go to a no lynch? That strikes me as blood thirsty.

If I am understanding you correctly (and you have already decided that I do not understand anything), you seem to be saying that I am playing favoritism with MGM, when I am not. If you were to actually consider things, you would see that I would rather see MGM get lynched before anyone I did not place on my list at all. If I was playing favoritism, I would have pue everyone in front of MGM, or not included him in the list at all.

I really appreciate the insult to my comprehension of this game, when

you

are the one who seems to be going half-cocked for multiple reasons. Almost everything you've said, would not need to be said, if you put more thought into your posts before you hit submit.
If it really freaks you out that I have MGM after no lynch, it does not bother me at all to put him in front of it. Would that make you feel better?

I guess, thinking about it even further, that if very long lists are to be made, that people will have to place themselves at the end of it, lest they accidentally contribute to a self lynching.

Lastly, VitaminR:
Misrepresentation:
He portrayed MOS's vote in a way that was not true. That is a misrepresentation.
He asked Oman why he didn't vote for me, when Oman had. That is a misrepresentation.
And the chaff he's spewing about me about putting MGM after no lynch, that is also a misrepresentation.

Unless you think LML is just shooting from the hip and just not paying attention, in which case, it Might be considered

misunderstanding

, but I do not understand why you would immediately assume he had no idea what he was saying and doing.

Which do you think it is?

[Skruffs]

Side note: I believe I am up to 6 people who, if not voting me directly, have voted me indirectly (I don't count MOS's because I'm so far down on his list), or at least expressed suspicion of me. Fortunately, this is not Calvin and Hobbes, so I am fairly sure that I can at least count on the mod not to ridicule me (too much). What a conundrum.

Zindaras, is there anyone else in this game you have noticed, or are you explicitly focused on getting see me to die?

I'm guessing that posting a new list overwrites the old one, otherwise things would get really cranky to figure out. the best thing about OMGUS votes is that now I can
MEGA-OMGUS

Vote: LoudmouthLee

, Zindaras, Oman, Adele, xyzzy, foolinc, logicticus, No lynch, Mgm

Tags removed. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod

[Skruffs]

VitR -> Opportunistic. IT is not standard town behavior to not care who gets lynched as long as someone does. In this particular situation, that would also include yourself.
If you do *not* like the idea of a no lynch, then you need to place a list with everyone in front of no lynch, signifying that, because as it stands, if me, Zindaras, or MGM is not lynched, you don't care if someone else gets lynched OR we no lynch.

Also interesting: VitaminR immediately jumping to answer questions I have posited to LML, while at the same time, supposedly, voting me for putting MGM after no lynch. Please look back on that in later days, everyone.

"He never said MoS' vote was anything it wasn't. He just offered his opinion on the way in which MoS voted. "
When he asked about whether MOS rerolled or not when he rolled a number that was already taken, he was misrepresenting what MOS did. If you want to say he didn't understand and so it wasn't misrepresenting, that's fine, but LML went to the trouble of 'misunderstanding vocally', without looking at MOS's list in other than a passing glance. I find it strange that you just write off LML's 'mistakes' and are at hte same time eager to defend him and join him against me.

"Erm... no, that is what we call a mistake. Misrepresentation is willful. Unless you're arguing that LML was trying to get us all to think that Oman didn't vote for you (which seems a fruitless endeavor at best), that is not misrepresentation. "
Misrepresent: to represent incorrectly, improperly, or falsely.
phail.

The last two bits basically say that I have a different view from LML, and then you vote me.

The reasons for voting me? FOR BEING DEFENSIVE.
Hmm. I'm really sorry, VitaminR. I thought when a townie had four.. no wait five with your vote, votes on him 3 pages into the game for only wanting to lynch a few of the possible suspects for STATED REASONS, that he had the right to

defend himself

.
IF it is scummy for a townie

not

to roll over and take it, please state up now, I'd hate to complicate your wagoning with points of defense. I can be quiet and let you get me lynched if you want.


Again, town, in regards to VitaminR, please note that he has just sided right up next to LML in attacking me.

LML -
"How do you know this? How did you know this? MoS has since explained his method, and unless YOU KNOW SOMETHING that we all don't, this was not a misrepresentation. '
If you had actually READ the post you would have seen that every dice he rolled was one less than the one before it, signifying a smaller pool of people. Not paying attention does not give you the right to be suspicious of those who do.

"I made a slight mistake. To call that a misrepresentation is certainly dumb. Something "easily traceable" like that must be a mistake. That seems fairly obvious to me (and should the town). "
What's interesting is that you goading Oman to vote when he already has was an "easily traceable mistake", however, me putting MGM after no lynch, what is that? Is that something scum would do, immediately saying who their scum buddies were by saying "I'd rather no lynch than lynch...this...one...person...." ?
If so, I would like an explanation as to why you think that is so.

Would I rather no-lynch than lynch MGM at this point in the game? Well, since you read my first post, you

obviously

saw that at the beginning of the parargraph with my list-vote, I put, "I should like to stir the pot a bit to start things off."
I then looked at the mod's example of the list on page one. It goes as follows:
List: Vote: G, K, L, No Lynch, P
I then editted hte letters with names, adding a few here and there. I put MGM at the end because there was a letter at the end of hte first example. Since the whole point of it was to get those players to talk, I( didn't really care if no-lynch was in front of someone or behind someone or up there at all.

I gave some players I have not played with before, like jeep, benefit of the doubt, because I didn't want to list EVERYONE in the list. As I said in my previous post, I am more than willing to move MGM in front of no lynch. It being the very beginning of the day, on day one, with no information, the whole setup was intended to stir up discussion. You of course, you know, saw that, and have been gracious enough to stir up a good bit of discussion by 'turning up the charm'. So to answer your question, I do not have an opinion on MGM. That is why he is on the 'to vote' list, at all. You can take that to mean that I would also rather no-lynch instead of lynching (when I posted that), Zindaras, IH, cubsfan, oman, jeep, and many others. You did not choose to take that opinion, instead focussing on the one person I put after no lynch.

Let me ask you - If you seriously think no-lynch is not an acceptable option at this point in the game, then why do you have no-lynch as preferable an option as anyone else not explicitly stated in your list? Your list states that after me, zindaras, and mgm, you don't care if someone else gets lynched or we no-lynch. Please keep in mind that more people would have to vote no-lynch than for ANY of the five or six or seven people ahead of it on my list for it to be worth

anything

. statistics wise.

Fourth misrepresentation - My voting for MGM after no-lynch is *not* in stone. If you had read the last post, I asked if you wanted me to put MGM in front of no-lynch. I said I Would completely fine with doing that - if you wanted me to. How does that equate to "It's in stone"? You are gerry-mandering, now.

I do like how in your post after that you explain that you are voting MGM to see if there is a link between me and him. I think the stronger link is between you and VitR.


Pooky - I resent that. You are the second person in this game from C&H to insult my intelligence. I do not insult your intelligence. Please respect mine. There is no reason we can not play this game without resorting to name-calling and popularity contests.

Zindaras - if you are going to unvote me, please retract your statement that I am a villainous cur that needs to be lynched, or else, it will seem you are trying to get other people to do your dirty work for you. KThx.

MGM - You haven't done anything that I am aware of that is scummy yet. I posted my list either simulposting with yours or right before. Scum are being opportunistic about this whole thing. I can't imagine I would have___ votes by now if I was really scum.

Dragon Phoenix - What kind of information are you looking for from me? Was that an ask to claim?

I'm at 7-votes, four to lynch. THe earlier ploy of putting me as second on the list and then 'bumping me up' by LML, hopefully, should not go unnoticed.


All of that being said, I will be working outside today. I tend to die awfully quick in large games, so please, everyone, before you put another vote on me, make sure you actually have a good reason to and make sure I haven't been already bumped up to a closer lynching range before you do it, okay?

Question: If someone leads an attack on someone who's already the largest wagon in the game, is it suspicious or not if they state that they find it scummy that the person they just attacked is being 'defensive'?



Last note: I like how nobody even responded to cubsfan on page three. "Skruffs is already at four votes??"
and how PWS who stated a similar thing got two votes for his trouble.
Is there a PROBLEM with people questioning a bandwagon, jeep?

[Skruffs]

Oh also one more thing.

The reason that LML jumped on skruffs to begin with (the no lynch followed by MGM), I think was perfectly explained by sckruffs in a later post when he explained he was mimicing what the mod did.

So I dont find the voting of skruffs to be scummy at all after that explanation.

This needs to be explained further. If it was satisfactorily explained, how does it make the people voting me for it reasonable? If you read it, you would see that I did not simply 'mimic the mod'... but let's pretend I did. This was my first post in the game. You think that this equivalent to a random-vote deserves the wagon I've gotten from it?



I will respond to all posts later on tonight, but I appreciate not being quick lynched.

[Skruffs]

Okie dokie. So I've got my points of views on most everyone, but I doubt everyone wants to see that all at once. Below is some of the longer thoughts, I'll post the rest in the morning.


LOUDMOUTHLEE -

Fourth misrepresentation - My voting for MGM after no-lynch is *not* in stone. If you had read the last post, I asked if you wanted me to put MGM in front of no-lynch. I said I Would completely fine with doing that - if you wanted me to. How does that equate to "It's in stone"? You are gerry-mandering, now.

If you're trying to tell me that I can't look at voting patterns to discuss guilt or innocence, then what's the point of playing mafia? it has been discussed that I have not made ANY misrepresentations. So Scruffs, I would appreciate that you back down, and I'm going to explain why.

Scruffs acted this same exact way to me in a recently completed game. He continually attacked me for absolutely no reason, giving unsound logic and really awful points. Even though the town KNEW all of his points were awful and his logic lacking, I continued, out of a unrequited need, to respond to him. How did it end? Me, getting lynched, as an innocent.

The fact that I'm appearing in so many lists right now is reminicent of that game. It's angering me greatly.

A) I never implied you can not look at voting patterns. Feel free to look at voting patterns. But implying that I refuse to vote for MGM directly after I said I would be more than willing to - that is not 'looking at voting patterns'. I am not repressing you. You are saying things that do not have a basis in the game, and I am pointing out those of them I see. You are quick, VERY quick, to imply that there is a connection between me and MGM.

Calvin & Hobbes: I attacked you for the reasons I had on hand. I don't want to get into details, but needless to say, considering how unsound my logic must have been and how horrible my points were, I find it odd that you would attribute the entirety of your mislynch to me. Either my points were not as bad as you would like to paint, or, more likely, my points were ignored and people found other reasons to lynch you. I consider it unfair to draw a direct connection between my suspicion of you and your being lynched. That is just an untrue statement. I am curious if VitaminR and Pooky, who were also both in that game, would agree with you. They were both alive at that point.
I WASN'T. I had been nightkilled the night before you were mislynched.
I may not have played well that game, but I did the best I can - I apologize that it wasn't pleasant for you.

If I remember correctly, everyone basically had a vitriolic character-smack down. PJ, who was part of it, replaced out (replaced by pooky).


Lastly, you can try to paint me and you as having a negative forum-game history together, with out one game, but I've been in three games with Zindaras - one of them being double headed - and he seems to like me. Cubs, who has been in two survivor/bb games and blames me for his loss in both of them, doesn't seem to hold it against me. Oman, Thesp, and Mos have all been in games with me, and, even if they are voting me, it's because they are using in game reasons.

The point is, if you just want to get me out of this game because you don't like my forum game style, state so, and I will replace out. Otherwise, you're being unfair to me, to yourself, to Mr. Grey, and to all the other players. Otherwise, let it go, because it's not going to get you anywhere. Sure, you might get me lynched, but then you'll be under scrutiny the next day, and what will your reasoning be for all of this? "Well, C&H!C&H!!!" It won't cut it.

-----------------------------

ZINDARAS :

VitR -> Opportunistic. IT is not standard town behavior to not care who gets lynched as long as someone does. In this particular situation, that would also include yourself.
If you do *not* like the idea of a no lynch, then you need to place a list with everyone in front of no lynch, signifying that, because as it stands, if me, Zindaras, or MGM is not lynched, you don't care if someone else gets lynched OR we no lynch.

You want everyone to make Condorcet votes of everyone? Because that's what this implies.

Is that what I said? No. I said that if you are so anti-no lynching as

to be willing to lynch someone for having it as an explicit option

(as compared to unexplicit which is what not having a list implies) then you need to explicitly make a list stating that you are willing to vote everyone else in the game before you would consider non-lynching.

I gave some players I have not played with before, like jeep, benefit of the doubt, because I didn't want to list EVERYONE in the list.

And why did you give them the benefit of the doubt? Why some specific players and not others?

Zindaras - if you are going to unvote me, please retract your statement that I am a villainous cur that needs to be lynched, or else, it will seem you are trying to get other people to do your dirty work for you. KThx.

Have you not grasped what I've been doing? I daresay it would be quite obvious, when someone says things like "villainous cur", "ignoble villain" and "god-forsaken semblance of a man" and confirm votes someone 20 minutes into the game, it is quite obvious that that person is joking around.

I don't know why I didn't go right out and put every single player in a list. I guess I assumed some of the older players will be focused on by other players, or, by rights of seniority, should be given 'the benefit of the doubt'. Players that have made bad moves in other games - like LoudMouthLee in C&H and Adele in Open 19, I put on the vote list because their playstyle is incomprehensible to me (At least in those instances).
I very much wanted to put Pooky on there, but, I believe I left him out. It was all very much spur of the moment as to who 'went on' and who didn't, but, at the time, I rather assumed that pretty much everyone would be using the Condorcet voting system in one way or another. Since it is a rather unique game mechanic, at least for me, and since it was

my first post of the game

, I kind of just had fun with it.

Post 126 - Acknowledging DP's scorn at him unvoting me. Zindaras's earlier post towards me about how he shouldn't be taken seriously 20 minutes into the game (if that's how he phrased it) is also applicable to DP suggesting Zindaras dropping out was scummy. DP just wants me lynched, is what it comes down to. But this part is about Zindaras.
Pavlov, Ha. I think if people stopped playing games like these in such a routine fashion (banter, random wagon, counter wagon, frantic deadline lynch of power role) the games would evolve in a much more interesting way. Fight your own training, Zindaras.

--------
Dragon Phoenix:
Summary: DP has been getting some slack in this game for being the 7th vote for me. He hops off me with some scum hunting on jeep, gets acknowledgment for it, and then hops back on me. Does that validate the earlier actions? I hope not. Scum can act town for short periods of time, but in the end, they want mislynches.

Dragon Phoenix - What kind of

information are you looking for from me? Was that an ask to claim?

I am looking for information in general, not from you specifically. Whether you claim or not is your decision, I am not pushing for it (I usually do not claim myself even at lynch -1, unless I have a power role or unless I am scum simulating a power role). There is a ot we can learn on days to come on how bandwagons are formed and pushed forward
or not, and reactions of other players as well as the and wagonee.

If you want 'information', but aren't actually asking for information, I am confused abuot my role in this, except as bandwagonee. You want yoru vote to be on me so that... later on... people can look back and see that you were voting me? I am confused. Are you scum pretending to be distancing from me? If you are looking for reactions, maybe you should try offering theories.

LoudmouthLee: fittingly, one of the loudest players so far. I don't associate that with scum usually. Probably town.

VitaminR: made a positive contribution to the game in post 74, picking Scrubbs apart. Likely townie.

logicticus: reasonable contribution so far, but his not voting is in my book a small scum tell. Slight suspicion.

Mastermind of Sin: a rather complicated way to do a random vote and fit the posting rule. Then nothing. Smells scummy.

Skruffs: I hopped on the bandwagon the moment I saw it (as you do on day one), but going back through the game I am actually quite happy that he is the front runner. Likely scum.

PlaysWithSquirrels: picks me with at least some reasoning (Apparently my first words are a minor scum tell in his book). Not much to go on yet. Neutral.

Zindaras: don't know what to make of him. Inconsequential posting, attacked Scrubbs vehemently onyl to drop him the moment the wagon gets underway, to switch to LML on gut. Hm. IGMEOY.

Cubsfan4ever: "What the...? Why does Skruffs have four vote?" That's all. At this rate he will not survive long. Gives off a scum smell

if Skruffs turns out to be innocent.

IGMEOY.

Mgm: a lot of short posts, not much substance. Got defensive early on for appearing on Concordet votes. Too experienced to mark that down as a scum tell. Neutral.

Oman: not much to go on. Picks me for puttng on the 7th vote (why the one who votes 7th?). And can't spell. Apart from that, neutral.

Interestingly, when MGM asks why DP feels MORE that I am scum now than when he

first put on the bandwagon vote, he refers to VitaminR's annotation.
"VitaminR: made a positive contribution to the game in post 74, picking Scrubbs apart.

Likely townie."
So.
To put this in perspective, I am likely scum, because VitaminR attacked me. And VitaminR is likely town, because he attacked me. I am assuming Dragon Phoenix decided I was the more likely scum beign attacked by a townie versus the opposite because I already had 6 votes on me, versus VitaminR's... one? zero?
interesting.

Another interseting thing: He puts all his bets on me being scum, BUT, he leaves an out for if I am town: Cubsfan, who had (At that time) made one post asking why I had four votes. So if I did get lynched and turned up town (which he states as "If he turns up town" not "if he gets lynched and turns up town", which suggests that DP has already concluded I *will* be lynched) he has an easy person to go after the next day. Why?

Because, apparently, Cubs knew I would turn up town and thus was acting townie? Couldn't that be taken a step further, and thus the corollary that DP also knows I will turn up town (or, barring that, at least non-mafia) and is laying the grounds for a push the next day on a person that has not yet contributed? After all, DP has already taken for granted that I will show up as something. Just thoughts.

Also interesting, Oman and Jeep both get scummier the more they question DP's authority.

His later note on Jeep is very interesting and goes against my collected data on him. As well as everyone else's. I like how he took a break, 'dug' at jeep, got accolades for it, adn then went back to me. Now people are saying "Well look what he did to jeep" (even if it was misguided), which by default makes it look like he was doing the same thing to me. He wasn't. I don't remember him 'digging' when he put the seventh vote on me, and I don't remember him 'digging' when he said that if I was scum one person would look bad and if I was town another would look bad.


------------------------
JEEP -

1) The only reason I can see for NOT using a list in your vote is if you are scum and haven't yet figured out how you plan to make your list so that it reduces your risk while not tipping your hand.

2) Why don't you agree? I don't understand why any pro-town role would not use a list. The only reason for not using a list is because you are scum and haven't had time to work out with your scum buddies what is the right way to use it to your advantage.

Even if you don't provide a list, you're just saying: I'd be equally happy to lynch anyone.

1 vote: MGM, PlaysWithSquirrels, LoudMouthLee, Skruff
2 vote: MGM, PlaysWithSquirrels, LoudMouthLee, Dragon Phoenix,
Skruffs

Both LoudMouthLee and Skruffs (if not the other two) have used Lists so far in this game.

Side note:
Playing in Exile Mafia (abandoned game by GreenLiquid) gave me a Little bit of experience regarding strange voting systems. I was a townie in that game and wound up getting lynched for pushing that everyone should declare who they were going to "nominate" before the time to nominate happened. Effectively everyone had one vote and we 'deadline lynched'... anyways the details are unimportant but I feel that town does get a significant advantage over scum by saying who they want to vote in these kind of systems. It gives scum an advantage because they then kill people who are low on a majority of lists, though, which is something worth considering. Partial lists seem to be a fair balance, and in the event of a deadline, (which is not anytime soon), more attention will be focussed on them. Maybe that's the time to really start talking about them, I don't know.
-----------------
There's more, but to sum up some other players:
Talitha, Thesp : Yay! These guys make me happy.
Where is TSQ?
Mos: Posting a bunch of random votes is fine, especially if it is a null-tell and all that, but avoiding the rest of hte game by focusing on a set of random votes that you *Had* to know would draw attention, that is avoiding leaving ANY tells by keeping yourself focused on yourself, and that's not quite as much a null-tell.
DP is at the top of my list, now, but I don't have a vote list that works.

Thank you for not lynching me! (yet)

Tags removed. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod

[Skruffs]

Oman, everyone not listed in my original vote was even LESS likely to be voted than MGM. People are focussing only on what they see and not looking any deeper than that. Frustrating. If I really didn't want MGM to be lynched, I simply would NOT HAVE included him. Not drawn attention to him explicitly by putting him after no lynch. I don't understand why you give LML a 'free pass' for accusing you of something that wasn't true in his fit of throwing out random accusations , and then focus on me for pointing out the errors in most of those accusations.

I like how LML is being meta'd because 'he's always loud and likes to stir things up' but i am being voted for the exact same thing, and I'm not doing it by attacking people based on reasons that were half thought out or misread or just not understood at all. I will have to make a note to play much, much sloppier in the future.

Now I'm curious, why are you attacking me for putting focus on 6 people that I do not know very well? Would it have been better to just ignore them, or to focus on people I am familiar with - like like pooky did with MOS, or PWS and whoever voted him?
Somehow I think if I didn't already have a wagon on me, you wouldn't have paid as much attention to me, Oman, but because it's there, I don't get hte benefit of the doubt.

[Skruffs]

Oman... "If you mean why about your first vote, I'd say becuase you were voting people PURELY on playstyle, which is attempting to put reason behind a random vote."
how can you think I based my first vote entirely on playstyle when I said that I based a good part of it on people who's play styles I have *no* ideas about? LML and Adele were based on play style - Adele's play in open 19 was... Bad, Jester Bad, and I saw every validation for putting her up in the group of people who should be pressured first. That being my only experience with her, I figured that it would be better to get that out of the way now when it can be explained and such.

At what point does responding to accusations become "Lash out at people", and at what point does "randomly accusing people of stuff that's not true" become "last out at people"?

[Skruffs]

CUBSFAN -
The first three posts were explicitly about me. I appreciate the concern, but, there's a lot more going on that cubs could get involved in.

TALITHA-
I like Talitha. She's kinda tricksy, and her defense of me is not as scummy as cubsfan's is. (Less likely to be scum buddying up is what I mean by that).

THESP -
Yay Thesp.

PWS -
Kinda defended me at a point when the only people involved were all attacking me, which could go either way, but I appreciate it regardless.


(note - this was written last night, a full 24 hours has passed and some of the points have been addressed by others)

MGM -

@Skruffs, I want you to answer Zindy's second question. in post 98.

MGM, I just did - what do yuo think of my answer?

Or the reason is that lists offer the scum too much outs. I'm already seeing people being a lot less strict about justifying their votes for people the further on in the list you get.

That's what I was expecting to see. People focussing on one person while having a list with others, then dropping the first person close to deadline. Imma be watching for that.



COGITOERGO SUM:

Or because Condorcet voting only matters if we make it to the deadline. There's no particular reason why we'd have to make a list to accompany our votes in this game as opposed to other games at this point.I will happily make a list if and when the deadline nears, but to do soon would be excessive.

I completely agree with this. It can work to show a 'tiers of suspicion' before hand, however, but on the other hand, someone who shows up in a lot of people's lists can be 'bumped' up by scum by making lists with that person prominently featured, close to lynch. So I think it is better to have them appearing early so as to avoid surprise lynches of people who are only fringing on the suspicion radar, but on the other hand, those surprise lynches can't happen if Nobody posts lists.


XYZZY:
Your first post:

I don't really have a long time to post anything extremely useful as of right now, but I may as well vote based on my suspicions.I think the claim that expressing happiness that the game has started is a scumtell is stupid and random, and that's why my vote is:

Vote: PlaysWithSquirrels

, Skruffs, LML

How do I figure into this? Did I ever imply that I thought someone was scummy for being happy the game started?

The Most Fight:
POOKY:

POOKY

@Skruffs, my point is more about your playstyle than your personal attributes. I can not make any guesses as to what sort of person you are since I've never met you and I will not choose to make any such guesses.

However from what I've seen of your playstyle so far, this is just how you "roll".

Thanks for the vote of, if not confidence, at least not non-confidence. I don't try to 'roll' any which way. I just put words down based on my opinion of things. I try to be investigative in my dealings. I am not always right, but I have no problem sticking my neck out to point out something I see as fishy.

While I agree with your point regarding MoS's dice rolling vs making a case against someone, if it is MoS's style, it's mos's style. If he then uses the die rolling as an excuse to avoid makign actual comments relevant to the game, then it's worth pursuing, but I think it's a false lead (at this juncture)


ADELE:
I like Adele's contribution so far, although I am not really in teh right frame of mind to discuss what it is she's talking about. Fighting for my life and all that (which VitaminR, apparently, would prefer I just didn't do).

I think random votes are useful to stimulate conversation, but once the converstaion is started, thay can become useless. I wouldn't say everyone has to have a solid opinoin of everyone else, especially not day one. THey are basically 'excuses' which can be nice if someone has no opinion but become redundant once someone is involved in the game enough to have an opinion.

MOS -
Well, I think I addressed the bulk of MOS's contribution in the part about Adele, but post 120 kinda just stuck a fork in it. Maybe I already read that post earlier and that's why I had that thought that MOS might do a big blatant thing just to have something to talk about, so, I can't really push it right now, but post 120 ignores a lot of the people of the game (except for a What? directed to pooky) to instead focus entirely on his random voting, which, of course, is something he himself did. >.>
He has said that he does it every game and so it's a null tell and so can't be made into a scum tell. However, saying you can't be attacked because of a null tell while ignoring other parts of the game (which could lead to pro-or-con tells) is Not a null tell. That's what I am getting at here.


Foolinc, Logicticus and VitaminR tomorrow.
Again, these were all done last night and some might seem dated.Sorry about that, but if I don't post them, I won't have a record of what I thought of everyone later on in the game. ( I mean besides on my hard drive)

[Skruffs]

Skruffs

Tell me what the point of your above post is,

If it's for you to state your position on all players in the game,

then tell me what your "yay thesp" thing means.

What do you like about thesp?

is it his avatar? his nickname? his incomparable sense of strategy? his breathtaking wit? his posts in the game?(specifically which ones?)

When you say "yay thesp" what are you trying to say about thesp?

do you think he's pure awesome?
"
if so do you believe he's protown?

if you do believe that, why do you believe that?

Are you trying to get into his good graces with a generic contentless message like

"yay thesp"?

There's probably lots more of this fluffy stuff lying around that I haven't attacked people on, but this really jumped out at me when I was reading the last post.

Yay thesp. ANd, because of your post, yay pooky. I snickered at it.
I was very impressed with THesp's play in Meadows of Sorrow and I feel he is a great player who will bring a lot to this game. For all the reasons you said above, too, minus the ""Are you trying to get into his good graces with a generic contentless message like "yay thesp"?" part. I'm not a butt kisser. (See former discussion with lml re: friendships nad mafia, playing of)

Curious, you pretty much ignored all other posts about all other people - including your self - to bring up a point about thesp. Is that the only point of note you wanted to say?

back to work with me.

[Skruffs]

DP, no offense meant, but you are still stuck on page five.

Cubsfan4ever: Few posts and short - consisting of nothing more than some defence of Skruffs. I maintain that he gives off a scum smell if Skruffs turns out to be innocent. Even worse, with his lack of contribution he is already giving off a scum smell now. IGMEOY, likely scum

Skruffs: his defences so far have not really convinced me. Still noted down as likely scum.

You are voting me, and if I come up innocent, Cubs is very likely scum. But you didn't address, what if I come up scum, as you seem to be so sure I am (based on your votes)? Does that make cubs likely innocent? It's not hard for me to theorize that you only did one half of the equation because you already

know I'm not scum

. Error of omission.
I love how you can say "Skruffs hasn't convinced me", but you don't, say, explain why not, or give me the option to answer questions you have. No, you'd prefer to just say I haven't done a good enough job, and move on from there. You were more than willing to hop onto a quick wagon when you had the chance, and now your 'player posts' refer to not one, but -

VitaminR

: made a positive contribution to the game in post 74, picking Scrubbs apart. Likely townie, even if he votes for me. Pretty strong town vibes.
Oman: since my previous analysis mainly discussing with Skruffs. Comes over as neutral to me.

Zindaras

: [don't know what to make of him. Inconsequential posting, attacked Scrubbs vehemently onyl to drop him the moment the wagon gets underway, to switch to LML on gut. Hm. IGMEOY. ] His more recent posts taste town to me.

PlaysWithSquirrels

: contributes little, and gives the impression to try to stay under the radar whilst keeping to the rules. Upgraded to scummy.

Cubsfan4ever

: Few posts and short - consisting of nothing more than some defence of Skruffs. I maintain that he gives off a scum smell if Skruffs turns out to be innocent. Even worse, with his lack of contribution he is already giving off a scum smell now. IGMEOY, likely scum

Four players who your opinion of them is based entirely or partly on their decision to attack or defend me. The only other person who's opinion you base on their attack or defense of another player is:

xyzzy:

funded attack on Mgm is his main contribution so far. Neutral.

Curious. Now let's look at some of the reasons you decide someone is town:

logicticus

: prodding, attacking with quotes, like I would expect a townie to behave. Upgarded to likely townie.

LoudmouthLee

: [fittingly, one of the loudest players so far. I don't associate that with scum usually. Probably town.] previous comment still stands in principle, but my gut starts to worry. Less likely to be town than before, but not clearly scummy.

foolinc

: gave a helpful analysis of all players from his point of view. Tend to think of him as town for the time being

So loud people, people who post analysis of other players, and people who attack others with quotes, are more likely town.

Unless they are Skruffs, apparently. Because I've done all of those things, and you are still voting me. Hmmmmmm.

One of the reasons you decided that certain people are town or scum was based on the amount of their posts - for example:

Adele

: waiting for more contribution this weekend. So far, slight townie vibe.

Thestatusquo

: virtually absent (a confirm and a non content post). Could be scum trying to stay under the radar, but then does not do a very convincing job. Scummy for the time being, but more contributions are required.

Cogito Ergo Sum

: tends to post relatively short contributions for this game. So far, slight townie vibe, but would like to see more discussion about other players.

Talitha

: little contributions but accessibility problems. Need to see more of her. For the time being neutral.
Thesp: posted a good analysis to make up for earlier absence. Gives off town vibes for the time being.
Mastermind of Sin: [a rather complicated way to do a random vote and fit the posting rule. Then nothing. Smells scummy.] since then we have had little else than defence on his random method. Upgraded to scummy.
Mgm: a lot of (short) posts, also because he got attacked several times. I don;t see his actions as scummy so far, and don;t get a scum vibe. Also not a town vibe though. Neutral.

You get the point. SOmetimes not posting a lot is scummy, sometimes it's townie, sometimes it's neutral. Just a rather wide variety of opinions when you use the same reason to determine all of them.

Since I am now gettnig flak for posting about THesp, let's look at what you have to say about Pooky:

PookyTheMagicalBear: Pooky is still being pooky. I always have problems reading him. Neutral for the time being.

Oddly enough, I guess, Pooky missed, skimmed over, or just ignored this.
POOKY - is there a reason why you asked me questions about THESP YAY but have no inclination to ask DP about his "Pooky is Pooky" post on you?
Or, I guess, since you have previously said thatme and sense do not go together, should I just assume that DP and sense do go together, and so, he doesn't need to really be inquired abuot things he says?

That's almost everyone, except Jeep. He mentions jeep twice in this post, let's put those snippets together and see what kind of picture it says:

jeep: I am still uncomfortable with the way he backpeddled (I'm still maintaining he did) about eh Condorcet issues. In general, I think his contribution has been sub par - what has he done except these discussions? Maintain him as high in my list of probable scum.

I will unvote jeep, mainly because I don;t think we can get a majority on him anyway. I go back to Skruffs, and wtill do the condorcet thingy (I am putting myself ahead of no lynch for reasons that I will explain if someone wants to - it is not an error):

Unvote jeep

Vote Skruffs

, jeep, [Cubsfan4ever, Mastermind of Sin, PlaysWithSquirrels, Thestatusquo], [LoudmouthLee, Mgm, Oman, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha, xyzzy], [Adele, Cogito Ergo Sum, foolinc, logicticus, Thesp, VitaminR, Zindaras], Dragon Phoenix, No lynch.

Jeep is probably scum, he says, BUT.... BUT... "I don;t think we can get a majority on him anyways."
If that's one of the biggest reasons behind voting or not voting for someone, then the real reason behind his vote on me is simple : He thinks he can get a majority on me.
That also explains why he doesn't actually ask me questions, or anything, he jsut wants to see me get lynched. It's a lot easier to wagon someone rather than actually try to get someone you say is scum lynched, is the implications. That's not how I personally play, but it ties in very nicely with his original 7th vote on me in the first place, and his focus on me since then. He is pretty sure he can get me lynched, and that's that.

Bad, Bad dragon phoenix.

LoudMouthLee - You just hoppde right back on the wagon at the first oppurtunity, shortly after DP pointed out that he thought he could get a majority lynch on me. You completely ignored everything else and focussed on "Thesp, Yay". Why? When did I imply "we" should "Thesp YAY!", or even indicate that ANYONE should think about ANYONE the same way I do?
What *IF* Thesp was scum? I have no idea. I know that I enjoyed playing with Thesp in MOS, and he has culture and etiquette, something that, um, SOME players lack. so yeah, it was a misrepresentation, becaus eyou seem to be trying to twist "YAY THESP" into "WORSHIP THESP AS GOD"... but, if I recall correctly,

wasn't your initial attack towards me influenced largely in part from a game that me and you played in?

So where do you get off voting me for having preconceived opinions of a player in the game, AGAIN, when you've done the exact same thing?
And what exactly is the feeling of gospel?
Thanks, MGM, Foolinc, Adele, for being rational.


Thesp - Was DP distancing from jeep? No, I don't think that kind of relationship can be determined from that. I think he was using a mistake from jeep to strengthen town's opinion of him so that when he swung back towards me, more people would follow. Re; Weird - It's a comparison between the way LML is being treated and accepted as town for making horrible mistakes vs other people who are having hte opposite happen to them.


MOS - I agree that other players are pegging you about your random vote, but you are allowing yourself to be pegged, and responding mostly to it rather than shrugging it off. I can't imagine you being lynched for a series of random votes - and if you do that in every game, than you know that is probably the case, too. My point is that you might be using it as an excuse to aviod interactions. (However your game play may have changed since then)


Zindaras - LML dropped me from his earlier post as "a sign of faith", and perhaps as a truce for me to stop pegging him? That's my opnion of it, anyways.
In regards to THesp - I made that opinion of him after his first post and before he started really posting about other things -




Xyzzy - What do you personally think about the YAY THESP? Do you think I was tryign to accolade THesp to the point where people would say he's town? Do you think I was appealing to authority? Do you think I am scum buddying up to someone I know is town? Looking for help in defending myself? Or saying hi?
I disagree that if 20 people say someone is town, that you will think he is town. IF you have a reason to believe he is NOT town, you should say so. Going with the flow = mislynches because then you are basically just a swing vote with no opinion of your own.

Pooky - as I said earlier - you didn't comment on DP's comments, including the one where he said you are pooky and thus he has no read on you (as usual). You have no comment on that, but you are both the instigator and lead supporter of the "YAY THESP" thingie going on. IS there not enough stuffing to spread evenly between players? Would you like a better analysis, or are you content to point out that I did not analyze him? Lastly, there are other players I have not analyzed at all - but you did not mention them. Are you really scum hunting, or looking for easy targets?


Jeep - your vote count put me at the top of the list 8 hours after your previous one, at a time when LML is being discussed about his change in vote style, and with no reason. Are you baiting some? I hadn't talked betweenn your posts and I got bumped up. What changed your mind?
And why didn't anyone else notice/care? Why should LML be singled out for random changes in votes?

Adele is fun to read, and I agree with her opinions for the most part. Skruffs haters, pay attention:

I'm not going to analyze her at this time, because I like the way she is playing this game

.

To make everyone happy, here is my opinion of MGM and Thesp, two people I have garnered votes for regarding my purported relationships to:
Thesp - If I wasn't under all this pressure and defending myself, I would be playing this game Exactly the way he is. Namely, on day one, he is asking a lot of questions to flesh out opinions and reasons for actions that people are doing. He Is *not* aiming for a quick lynch, or even really voting that much. This tells me that he is interested in revealing scum rather than killing off people, which (if you will look at my own opinions), are the people I am most suspicious of so far today.

MGM:
HE seems relaxed, and except for his rather naive questioning about why he was on other's vote lists, almost all of his posts are rather informal. There are questions, but they are small, simple questions, and he doesn't really press anything. Very similar to Thesp's, actually.

Side note: I'm wondering if this entire game is being staged inside The Counte of Monte Cristo's head. And, I'm wondering what Frezno really has to do with it.

Unvote

Vote : Dragon Phoenix

, [jeep, vitaminr, pooky], [mastermind of sin, cogito ergo sum, adele, loudmouthlee, cubsfan, oman], [plays with squirrel (TSQ's replacement), MGM], [everyone else I've forgotten about, Skruffs], [talitha, zindaras, adele], No Lynch.

[Skruffs]

Also, for the record, I put Zindaras alone between talitha and adele towards the end of the vote list. You can thank me later, Zindaras. ^.^

[Skruffs]

-----------------
There's more, but to sum up some other players:
Talitha, Thesp : Yay! These guys make me happy.
Where is TSQ?

THESP -
Yay Thesp.

(note - this was written last night, a full 24 hours has passed and some of the points have been addressed by others)

The Most Fight:
Foolinc, Logicticus and VitaminR tomorrow.

Again, these were all done last night and some might seem dated.

Sorry about that, but if I don't post them, I won't have a record of what I thought of everyone later on in the game. ( I mean besides on my hard drive)

Regarding "the most fight", that was meant to be "The mos/talitha fight", because at that point, there was a bit of pickering going on with talitha and MOS. Or maybe it was MOS and someone else. I'm not sure. That didn't get deleted from my copy-paste when I brought it over. (The time tags might give a hint as to why)

Zindaras.
Okay, you got me. Thesp made some posts before I said "Yay Thesp". I did not analyze them. Oddly enough, neither did you. Your first use of Thesp's name was in your asking why I didn't analyze him. IS there a reason you yourself were not looking deeper into Thesp's posts? Because when I look at them, I see him coming in with rapier drawn and nicking here and there. His post about manufactured anger is interesting, but it's not something I have experience on.
Other than that, and my opinion of Thesp that I have since given, before your last post - what are you looking for me to comment on?

Lastly, I forgot who TSQ's replacement was. That's why I just said "TSQ'S REPLACEMENT". As for Adele, I put her down and then put her down again with you. I put you guys after me so that you could get some alone time with some scummy ladies.
Please, stop examining my butt hairs and remember this is a game.

If something is black it is not white. If it is not black it is not automatically white. If you are innocent after all, I think Cubs is probably scum (by now I think he is probably scum anyway). Should you be guilty, there is no reason why Cubs should be innocent.

He could even be of a second family.

I am not addressing the rest of your post now because I don't have time. I also don't think it will be very helpful to do so now.

DP - Second family? And you seem to have missed the comments about the contradictions in how you determine who is scum and who is not. Most of hte things you attributed to townie-play, I do, and have done, and am actually being voted for it. So why am I a special case?

Pooky - I do not think it is scummy at all that you have no read on DP. But I think it is strange that you would, yourself, not comment on something you do not have an opinion on, and then, ask why someone else may not have a point on someone.

Tamuz, your post was going along well until it went bang at the end. Did your brain pop?

The mod is gonig to drive himself crazy trying to prod everyone constantly to post. I think it should be at least a littler lax around holidays.


Dragon Phoenix mentioned something about a Second family... I get the impression that someone else in this game suggested that I was in a mutually exclusive scum group with someone else, maybe with Cubs... but I can't remember who.
Oh wait, I found it...

I think DP and Skruffs are mutually exclusive scum, they're not buddying up, but there is not enough for a distance call yet.

Me, personally, I have no reason to think or suggest that there are two mafia groups, or even that there ARE mafia groups (but based on the count of monte, it makes sense), But, for two people to say on day one that there IS, and that in either case, I am in them, that is just peculiar.


Okay, not to be 'skruffscentrics', let'
s jsut drop me from the equation, it's interesting that two different players would both include the same person in the possibility of two families, on day one,w ith absolutely no information in the game.
IH, just replaced Oman, so unfortunately Oman isn't aroudn.

BTW: YAY IH! BOO JEEP!

[Skruffs]

Why does day end in four days? I would think that while a deadline is useful, making everyone post every other day leads to a wealth of information. There are five or six players who have just replaced in who should have a chance to get their opinions out, as well, before the day is snubbed short.

And I'm still confused about why Jeep replaced out, if it doesn't have to do with his family. Does jeep normally back out of games if he is put under any amount of pressure? That's what it looks like to me, which is why I would like some clarification. I wouldn't want to go chasing down a wrong alleyway.

Nobody has responded to the "Two families thing", not even to Dragon's backpedalling. First there was "A second family", which indicates a first family. Then he says "I would even bet either two families or one family and a SK." BUt he didn't mention SK before then, he said "Second family".

Consider Oman as well:

I think DP and Skruffs are mutually exclusive scum, they're not buddying up, but there is not enough for a distance call yet.

And I would like a lot of people's opinions on this. How likely is it to know the number of mafia groups on day one, before anyone has died, if you aer not in one of them and thus have no idea how big one or both of them are?

Also, if we are close to deadline, I would like everyone who are voting me to unvote me yunless they are really serious. I can even name claim, if you want.

But I am serious - if you just skippde over my post and happened to see this, move your eyes backwards three paragraphs and read that part, and respond to it. And then vote DP for great justice. Thanks.

[Skruffs]

K.
Dp, you arent interested in a name claim, presumably because, just like you have been since your original band wagon vote, which you hastily found reasons for later, you just want me to be lynched. I'm presuming that it is better play to actually hunt scum rather than blindly try to get someone lynched.

If i do not understand back peddling, then, please explain why you only added sk as an option after i asked you about it?

Ih, i can understand that jeep may have left for any reason, but i seem to recall the mod posting that jeeps replacement doesnt have to do with his family. If it did, i wouldnt be curious, and im not fossing BM over it. You avoided the two family thing because oman also said a similar thing about me and DP, i am guessing? If i am wrong, just point it out to me.

Is Anyone else who is voting me not interested in a name claim? Or would they rather keep pushing for a mislynch?

unvote, vote loudmouthlee

Condorcet list: loudmouthlee, dragon phoenix, [everyone else],[talitha, zindaras, thesp, pookie], no lynch.

[Skruffs]

Skruffs: 5 (Dragon Phoenix, foolinc, Battle Mage/jeep, LoudmouthLee, VitaminR)

Dp, you arent interested in a name claim, presumably because, just like you have been since your original band wagon vote, which you hastily found reasons for later, you just want me to be lynched. I'm presuming that it is better play to actually hunt scum rather than blindly try to get someone lynched.

Is Anyone else who is voting me not interested in a name claim? Or would they rather keep pushing for a mislynch?

The people who are/were on my wagon are/were the following, with their responses:

Dragon Phoenix

: Ignored it to call me stupid instead. See below.

Battle Mage:

ah sorry, *Unvote*

LoudmouthLee:

If necessary, I will claim.

Foolinc

: Skruffs: While his play as of late has given me some doubts of whether or not he is really scum, downgraded to slightly scummy. *unvote*

VitaminR:

Well that part of Skruffs' behaviour has little to do with why I'm voting him. That's why...

VitaminR and LoudMouthLee have ignored the request.
LoudmouthLee even offered to, himself, while ignoring mine. And now I am curious as to what 'other reasons' other than my behavior, VitaminR is voting for me for.

I even went back to look to see where VitR voted me. I figured he stated his reasons earlier, and I missed them:

VitaminR

I don't like your defensiveness or OMGUS one bit.

Unvote: Oman,
Vote: Skruffs

Care to expand on this, VitaminR? I'm really curious what 'defensiveness' is, if it's not part of someone's behavior. Is it part of the digestive system? Please remember, I'm rather stupid, so talk in small little words so that I can understand.

I'm not in the lead of being lynched, but I wanted to follow up on my request. BM and Foolinc do not seem as opportunistic, they unvoted without asking for a name claim. The other three are still blustering. I'm suspicious of them. Especially DP.

-------------
In other news:

logicticus

Skruffs, are you really advocating a name claim this early or am I misreading that?

I offered to name claim to help prevent a mis lynch. Try to twist that into advocating anyone else in the game to name claim.
-------------

PookyTheMagicalBear:

Skruffs, why are you voting Lee right now?

I want to help lynch scum. I am not scum. To allow myself to be lynched over someone else who might be scum would be untownly. Therefore, I put my vote on someone else to try and prevent a mislynch. I'm surprised you couldn't piece that together. You're supposed to be really good at this game.

If that's not enough, there's this. He makes bad points as reasons to vote someone, gets called out, and hides away saying "But that's just how I am!" He has taken minute opinions (look at his post against Thesp) and blows them into extreme proportions, but doesn't want any counter inquisitation when people are curious about it. So if I were to push for someone's lynch, day one, with no information, it would be someone who has been playing a game similar to the way LML has, so far, today. Which works out, because apparently, four other people also agree with that mentality, which is why he has four votes on him.

Side note: You seem to be asking me a LOT of questions about minute aspects of my play. You are not asking anyone else in the game questions about their play. Are you interested in Vitamin's reasons for voting me, since they are not based on my behavior?
-------------

Mgm:

And I would like a lot of people's opinions on this. How likely is it to know the number of mafia groups on day one, before anyone has died, if you aer not in one of them and thus have no idea how big one or both of them are?

To Skruffs: yes, there might be a second mafia family. That is not unheard of in a 20 player game. I would even bet either two families or one family and a SK.

He's made a guess regarding the setup based on the number of players in the game. The word "might" shows he's guessing and unless you know something I don't there's no evidence yet, that that guess is actually right.

This is very confusing. DP says that there are two families. I point ou that nobody except scum have any idea how big or how many the scum groups are. There have been no chances for night kills so we do not know how many scum groups are. You know who might be suspicious of a second mafia family, on day one? Someone who is in a unusually small mafia family. And I point you to Mafia 61, which had one scum group of 5 people in a 23 player game.

He used "Might" in his second post (which apparently is the third or fourth word I've used wrongly in this game. Stupid skruffs, durr hurr hurr). The point is,

why would you even suggest something like that if there is no reason to think it?

Oman said he thought we were mutually exclusive scum. Not we could be, or anything like that, but that there was two scum parties, and we were each part of one.
DP said "He could even be of a second family." Not "a second scum group", which is what he tried to corerct himself as meaning later, but family. Specifically, TWO mafia families.
-------------

Gaspar

:
Welcome to the game! Having you around will be exciting. Personally I do not care if you note who said what, but if you don't, be prepared to both be held accountable for something the other person said. My only issue is that I don't understand why the mod would assign two players to one role so shortly after saying that finding enough replacements may be an issue.

-------------

Dragon Phoenix

Are you trying to play the dim card Skruffs?

Durr hurrhurrr.

1. jeep clearly went out for family reasons - what are you trying to reach by casting doubt on his motives? jeep backing out because he is under pressure??

I'm not trying to "reach" anything. His replacement, in and of itself, is not based on him breaking the rules, and not from teh family thing, which spurred a question: "Why?". I am sorry that some people do more than bandwagon vote to figure out who is scum or not. If jeep has a scum=tell where he leaves or replaces otu of a game if he screws up somehow, than yeah, I will definitely move my vote to him. Some of the more experienced players in the game may very well be able to point that out. I have no idea. REMEMBER: NEVER PLAYED WITH HIM. It probably was not very tactful to probe into the events surrounding his departure, but, I went there.

2. Reading the rules is a clear prerequisite for this game. The deadline has been announced since day one.

What is the point of saying this directly to me,

3. Congratulations on the astute observation that if I mention a second family, that this implies that there is a first. Excellent. If you think my next comment you refer to (about there also being a possibility of one family and a SK) is backpedalling, then you don't understand the meaning of that word.

Oh wow. The problem is not that you implied there was a first family. The problem is that you seemed to think there would be a reason for there to BE A SECOND FAMILY. I pointed out that you seem to think there may be two families, and you immediately change it to "Second family or SK" - but you didn't imply SK. You implied second family. And if someone is in a small mafia group, they might be more suspicious of a second mafia family than a normal townie would be. THAT is my point,a nd you haven't actually refuted that. You are instead trying to belittle my intelligence. Guess what. Everyone belittles my intelligence. If you think I'm stupid, fine. My point must be stupid too. Which means that you can respond to it, easily, because you are so much smarter than me.

I would be happy with a Skruffs, battlemage(jeep) or Cubs lynch.

I have pointed out so many errors in your decision that I should be lynched, and you mostly just ignore them and stubbornly keep saying I should be lynched. Was it really just a 'townie bandwagon vote' or are you just trying hard to get someone not in your mafia group lynched? Nothing you have done since has indicated to me that you are interested in more than death.

-------------

IH:

It's useless to speculate about this, but considering how long Jeep has been playing, and making his "list of scumtells" and such, it could be for any number of reasons. Using this against BM isn't valid I think.

FoS:Skruffs I think....

Again, do not take me ASKING if jeep's request to be replaced as SAYING that he is scummy. I was asking because I have no idea. If I thought it was, I would not have asked.

Also, how does a name claim help us at all? Just curious.

You are up to date on the theme of the game, right? I can't tell if this is fishing or not.
-------------

Cubs:

Most of your posts have been (rightly) asking why I got such a wagon on me and saying I'm town, etc. I appreciate it, to a point. You did something similar to this in Anime mafia as an SK. Are you scum?
-------------

Tamuz"

I won't ignore you, don't worry.
I liked your first post, not because I agered with it, but because you went to the trouble to put your opinion out there. I'm going to pick on teh things about me first, everyone else second, because I am Skruffscentric.

- Over-defensive & bad logic, slight vent at pooky (?)

I resent having my intelligence insulted. He was a band-wagon-insulter, which is pointless and baitive.

- Blames, or explains a 'scummy' action of his on the mod. uhh DP isn't modding this game, you can't blame the mod.

???
Okay, so you thought putting MGM after no lynch was scummy? Did you think about that much before you made that decision?
What does DP not modding have to do with blaming the mod?
And did I blame the mod? No. I have taken responsibility for what I've done, which was, stir the pot. I explained that I used the mod's example for my own first list - but I would hardly call that 'blaming' him.

- Aside about LML and CH is appreciated

Sure.

- Tally makes him happy? She hasn't said anything of importance or value

She was the first person to use common sense in defending me, which made me feel better. Also: "vote: playswithsquirrels, cubsfan, Oman, Zindy, no lynch ::Wink::, MoS" See that wink? That made me happy.

- Compares his actions to LMLs and wonders why LML is geting meta-excused and he isn't (180). But fails to mentions that unlike LML he used horrid logic and misrepresented the word misrepresent.

I don't like this, because it ignores the horrid logic that LML was using. Say I have two apples. If I look at one, and then the other, for imperfections, I will find that the one I did not look at is probably more perfect than the one I did. Similarly, if a friend gives me an apple and says "These apples tend to be a little sour", I will be more surprised and upset about the apple that was not given to me by a friend, because, hey, I had no idea this apple was sour. Does that mean that the second sour apple is 'better' than the first, in either of those examples? No. Does it mean it is worse? No. But the means for determining which apple is better or worse, is flawed. That's what I was complaining about.

-224 = deflection

Yay Tamuz. BetteR?

That's my part. Let's look at the other parts.
Mos - avoiding possible tells - that's what I thought, too.
Foolinc - HE talked about other players as well - is that the only note of worth?
PWS - I can see you thinking that about him - but what does it mean?
Adele - I don't see her as counselling me in 181. It sounds a lot more like she was giving LML an out. (which is why I put her on the condorcet list later on)
Talitha - Blowing steam happens a lot. For example, you have spoken about two players in this post 'blowing steam' or saying a lot without saying anything, but you don't actually take your review of any players further than that, a review. So...
xyzzt-

- I think this is a false dilemma where he states in 159 that the scum are the only ones who start with any information. There are way too many goofy roles that we as a community have invented that result in townies or third parties starting with informations either because the mod outright states it or because one mechanic implies another.

I think scum start with more information (in most games) than any other role. Someone being a miller might imply there is a cop, but, mafia know which of them are scum and which aren't, which is the eral point of the game. Speaking of mafia knowledge... what do you think about the multi family theories that have been thrown about?

cubs - Agreed, but, curious about the 'at this moment' emphasis. Do you think the wagon that was on me at that moment was sound?

Jeep - Which assault by DP? And what does "Thermopylae' mean?

yay thesp - *patpat* Flattery can get you everywhere. Sometimes the best way to really figure out how someone works is to compliment them and make them feel confident. Thesp is a Macintosh apple.

Now I have more questions for you:

Cogito Ergo Sum
Dragon Phoenix
IH, replacing Oman D1
logicticus
LoudmouthLee
Mgm
PookyTheMagicalBear
Thesp
VitaminR
Zindaras

You forgot these players! What do you think about them?

Mod quote removed. Do not quote the Mod. - Mod

[Skruffs]

Oh. This recent two families talk is absolutely interesting:

Has there been any nightkills at all? Did I miss a whole cycle? How can we begin even discussing the amounts of families right now when we have no information to go on?

Me an LML finally agree on something. I don't like MGM's attitude about the two families thing, which is basically saying that DP was in the right in stating that there are two families in a game like that.
Big games I have been in and the number of families in them:
Mafia 61 - 21 players, One family.
Two-Headed Mafia - 17 Players, One family
Meadows of Sorrow - 20 players, One family
Kingmaker 2: 24 players, one family*
Mafia 63 - 17 Players, one family*
Mafia 59 - 19 players, Two families, as stated in the opening post
Ps2Sux - 20 players, two families, as stated in the opening post
Mafia 65 - 25 players, two families, as stated in opening post*
PR3 - 24 players, One family, one faction, both hinted at in opening post

* - These games are on-going, data presented is based on public knowledge from looking at first post.

Except for PR3, which was a bit of an exception anyways, any game witwh two families referenced those families in the first post. Maybe there are tons of games that break the mold, but these are the games I have had experience with.

The premise of this game - that of the count getting revenge on the four friends who betrayed him - insinuates there would be one four-player mafia. An SK? Maybe. But there is no reason to think there would be two families at this time, as far as *I* can see. If there DOES turn out to be two families, DP better be scrutinized closer. Oman/IH stated mutually exclusive scum, which includes mafia/sk as a possibility, but that's not what DP said.

Anyways, it's something to be brought back up later, when there is more information available.

[Skruffs]

MGM - Could you explain why you want BM to die so much? And can you explain why you do not want DP to be lynched, considering he tried to get me lynched earlier in the day for doing the same thing with you?
You kind of haven't talked much about DP at all - so it's kind of weird (to me, which usually means nothing) that you would not only ignore possible scum tells found against him, but then actually defend the person who made them, and question the people who noticed them. I got bumped up in your condorcet for pointing out that DP seems to think there are two mafia families, and you seem to be putting the burden of proof on us

to prove there's not

, whereas I would expect someone with an *ambivalent* viewpoint to be more curious as to why DP went so far as to say that not only

were

there two, but that he even knew two people from each one. You do not seem to have an ambivalent viewpoint, though. Cool.

fos: mgm

I, for the record, am retracting my endorsement for a jeep lynch, which was mostly OMGUS anyways.

VitaminR:
I understand now. Some of my behavior is cool, but some of it you don't like. You didn't say that at first, of course, which is why you were misunderstood, but now I understand. You think that some of my behavior (like being defensive when people are calling me stupid and wagoning me for no apparent reason) is BAD, and some it is

1) "Your overdefensiveness. Your response to LML was filled with bad accusations and bad argumentation."
Huh. That's interesting, because it's already been discussed that your initial posts in the wagon to get Skruffs lynched were mostly just baiting me. So to vote me for taking bait that YOU set, that's odd. But allright. This is a 'type


2) "I disagree with most of your suspicions. They seem ill-founded and overly absolute."
Which is okay... if LML does it, right? Because that's how LML is.

3) The LML vote came at a weird time and I don't agree with it. Opportunistic.
The LML vote came right after I realized the deadline was getting close, after a week of him being obnoxious with ill-founded accusations and overly absolute statements about various players in the game. I was at five votes, he was at four. He was also voting me with no intentions to change. I voted him. Call that opportunistic, if you want.. you've made yourself clear since nearly the game started that you are on LML's side and that you want me dead, so I doubt you're going to change your mind now, anyways. You didn't seem to care about DP's blustery excuse for putting the seventh vote on me, THAT wasn't oppurtunistic, but my voet on LML was. Right.

You can just keep your vote on me for misusing the word "misrepresentation" and being defensive, VitR. After all,

You don't want me to claim, you just want me to die.

This probably can't work like this, but, I'll pull the warning for it.

Unvote

Vote: LoudMouthLee

, [Dragon Phoenix, MGM, VitaminR], No lynch

Tags removed. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod

[Skruffs]

I could be wrong but I think Primate was talking with an OUTRAGEOUS accent on AIM yesterday, if he transfers that typing style on here it would help differentiate the two.

I feel bad for that growing pile of [b]s and :)s that the mod is accumulating. Where do inadvertent smilies go, anyways?

[Skruffs]

The problem isn't in assuming there are two families, but DP, at that point, was answering a question I had asked about me vs cubs. He wanted me lynched - and if I turned up innocent, he wanted cubs lynched. I accused him of trying to cover his bases, and asked why he didn't factor in what would happen if I came up scum (the obv answer is because he didn't originally think I would come up scum), etc, etc, and him implying that cubs may be in a second family was his answer.


WHere's Pooky? I asked him some questions he didn't answer.
Thanks Tamuz, btw.

[Skruffs]

IH

- I didn't count it explicitly as two families because it says that the trio killers were only mafia like. I thought it was two families, but the first post suggests otherwise - a band of three SKs or something. Do your research!
Why would I consider this game an exception? IT is themed around a book, but other than that, I am not sure what you are saying is exceptional about it. Of course, ANY game run by Mr. Gray will be exceptional in it's lay out. Is there something exceptional about this game in your opinion, IH, that you would say something like that?

Logicticus's point abuot someone knowing there was two families was already addressed. If someone were to start off in a small mafia group, they might assume there is another small mafia group as well (or, as logicticus pointed out, a cult). Someone who is IN a mafia has a better idea, right now, than someone who isn't, about thye size of scum groups and thus the likelihood fo there being more than one.

Pooky

Could you address my questions before deadline?

VitaminR

Same goes to you -
If it wasn't baiting me, what was it?
Did you think LML's change of heart was genuine?
Why have you been on LML's side the entire day? You've defended his actions constantly, but never once directed a question to him. How can you be so sure that he is town that you basically have no interest intalking to him?
Also, you would still rather lynch a cop role than no lynch?

BM

I only think I got to -4, with DP's 7th vote on me.

CES

Never played Goats Mafia. I agree that there is no reason to, but my experience is that it usually does.
Also, do you mean my attempts to paint the people who were band wagoning ME in a scummy light? I only attacked some of them, because only SOME of them were band wagoning me in a scummy way. Otherwise you're just voting me for being defensive, as far as I can tell.

Dragon Phoenix

You seem to use "I haven't been convinced otherwise" quite a lot, but I am NOT seeing you giving any options on how to be convinced. I believe that you are using that statement to avoid giving people the oppurtunity to clear themselves in your eyes, which is, latently, an aversion to scum hunting. If you felt that cubs was likely scum regardless of my alignment, then why is he further down on your list than I Am? The original reasoning of your vote on me was because a bandwagoning is the thing to do. Now you bandwagoned BM and then, moved

back to me

, long after that band wagon has ended. THe obvious choice for someone to be bandwagoning (if that's really your only intentions) is to vote loudmouthlee, isn't it?

VitaminR, Dragon Phoenix, Gaspar, Dani Banani, Zindaras

-
You would rather lynch a claimed cop role than yourself or no lynch?

LoudMouthLee

I'm probably not going to unvote you unless you do something remarkable, or claim, before deadline tomorrow.

Side note to future readers: VitaminR and Cubs playing similarly 'behind' other, more obvious players.

Vote : LoudMouthLee

[DP, VitaminR, Pooky, Cubs, MGM, logicticus, xyzzy], [no lynch], [battle mage, skruffs, talitha]

[Skruffs]

Okay, what does a searching townie DO? Is it like a searching mason? Or is he still a townie? or.. what?

for the record, i think anything can happen if town is determined. The only reason i am unvoting lml is because his claim can help the town potentially later on.

I personally think BM's posts are vastly better than jeeps was.

Unvote

Vote : Xyzzy

[cubs, dp, pooky, mgm, foolinc], [no lynch] [everyone else] [battle mage]

[Skruffs]

> : (
Somebody blocked me. That pisses me off.

[Skruffs]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_Kerkorian#References
A real person, presumably, a billionaire who's holdings are based out of Beverly Hills, California. I'm not sure how close to Fresno that is, but at least we are starting to get a feel for the game's layout. Both characters so far dead are 'real people' - Pierre Picaud was the basis for the original story - which might explain why cubs thought he was the count of monte cristo. What I am saying is that he may not have been intentionally lying.

[Skruffs]

Anyways, Skruffs are we really to believe you got roleblocked, or are you just scum seeing how far you can yank us along on your RC.

Buh? Tamuz, I think you overstepped yourself there... I do not see myself as being able to be able to 'yank us along on my RC', in as much as

I haven't roleclaimed yet.

. Of course, if mafia has a roleblocker, and they blocked me, they would of course immediately want to discredit me for it, wouldn't they? Only they'd want to wait until a more oppurtune time, after more had been revealed. You jumped the gun.

vote : tamuz

[Skruffs]

Erm, i would not be quick to assume xyzzy was day-vigged. He had a heart attack, which suggests something like poison. Like... Not to fish, but, iocaine powder? I would suggest that xyzzy's'death

may

have been caused by a poisoner.

vote : tamuz

, [dp, ces]

[Skruffs]

VitminR, is there a significant difference between a 'soft claim' and a 'role claim'?

Tamuz, i still don't understand why you would immediately assume that i would be scum because i said i was roleblocked. I believe you have a reason, but i don't think it's'a public reason.

vote : tamuz

,[ces, ngn, vitr]

[Skruffs]

Uh Skruff... you did claim, maybe not a full claim but you still claimed to have a night power.
You kinda scumplay lead there... A good scum should do X. You did Y, which a good scum wouldn't, therefore you are scum. Huh?
I see you words either as stupid town play, or a scum attempt to establish value.

What is X, and what is Y? And how is claiming to have a night power scummy? Why would you automatically assume that I didn't have a night power and was scum? You are not making any sense.


IH:
That was a horribly batched defense of Tamuz there. Soft claiming is not the same as ROLE CLAIMING, which Tamuz accused me of being scum and doing. Where were you trying to go with that? He later said that I *did* claim, because I claimed to have a night action - but that doesn't match at all with his first post. Why would you validate his statement?

Also, I thougth maybe you weren't caught up when you voted for LML, but, apparently you are, and are defending it. If LML is neither town nor scum, then he's, what, a survivor? Which means he's still a wrong vote. Given what we do know about him - that hasn't been proven wrong - there are a lot of other avenues to be following right now, and I can't understand why you are pushing this one.

Also, for IH's reference.

Over the past few weeks, mafias have been popping up all over. In cities across the countryside: from idle Vallensburg to the larger Garren’s Creek, towns across the country have had mafias formed by angry citizens. Some succeeded, and some failed. The largest attacks seemed to take place at Turroville and Townelle, moderately large towns located in the southern fields. Luckily, both failed

(well, Townelle did fall to a ‘Duo Killer’ faction, but that’s not really a mafia)

.

My opinion of the trio killers not exactly being a mafia was based on the wording of the first post - just like all the other games were. Come on, man, get with it.

Well, three people who were thought to be dubious yesterday are dead and all three turned up innocent. I'm less surprised that Jeep/Battle Mage was innocent, but rather surprised about cubs and xxyzz.

I need to digest this new info and look back over Day 1 before making a new/improved lynch list.

Do you think that means anything to people who (ahem) focusses exclusively on getting those three lynched while avoiding other wagons?

I'm going to metagame Zindy right now and find him likely innocent at the fevor he went after a mislynch of Xyzzy.

Please explain that metagame because it makes no sense. Someone who actively seeks a mislynch should be considered scummy, not likely innocent.

My opinion on xyzzy's death:
I think that if a vig-poisoner had targetted xyzzy, he'd probably start the next day looking for additional scum - either xyzzy would die or not, but it was not worth focussing on then.

An SK on the other hand would probably maybe TRY to put more attention on xyzzy - maybe even lead an attack against him, because then when xyzzy mysteriously dies it would crete a lot of confusion. Which is why I don't understand teh whole "Xyzzy is dead, let's lynch MGM" thing that just cropped up. I think looking at the people who initially went gung ho over xyzzy without considering other things should be looked at.

[Skruffs]

Okay, IH... What is my roleclaim, then? How have I jerked you along on it? If I was scum, all I've done is kept myself from being able to claim vanilla later on. If I am town, I've alerted the rest of the town of an existance of a roleblocker. The immediate disbelief and lack of curiousity you and Tamuz show towards what I've said tells me a lot more about your state of mind regarding the game than some others.

Tamuz, aren't you the one who accused *me* of outguessing the mod after i pointed out that DP was using the assumption of two mafia families to explain his suspicions of both me and cubs?

I think we need a tally of everyone who is posting just to avoid being replaced. I know school sucks up a lot of time and such but it's'becoming a too-easy excuse. Kudos to those bucking the trend.

[Skruffs]

Hmm. Secret word. Keep it secret until more is known about the point of them, regardless. They could be rumpelstiltzkinnish in nature.

Tamuz - you saying me and Thesp are likely scum due to an opening statement I made about him day one - isn't that a throwback to day one, where people were saying cubs was scum either defending a scum buddy, buddying up to a townie, or buddying up to a nother townie?

Happy with a Tamuz or DP lynch. FO REAL.

[Skruffs]

I'm not masons with thesp. Or mgm. Or cubs. Or zindaras. Or anyone else. Not a mason, and wont be with LML later on.

Foolinc - BM, the assumed mafia kill, dropped his suspicions of me. He actually questioned the wagon on me, if I remember correctly.
And, like LML said, pretty much everyone at one point or another voted me or had me high up on their list.
So what was the real reasoning behind your vote?
If you are going to use relationships with dead people as part of your basis, why not note IH's''oh wow, scum killed a role cop, i wonder why'-type post?

Speaking of which, IH, why wouldn't scum target the only known power role?

Tamuz - why?

[Skruffs]

Tamuz - you think I am scum with Thesp because I said "Yay Thesp", right? And because I claimed to be role blocked? And because I was 'outguessing the mod' in saying that DP was outguessing the mod?

You *say* you thought I was scum yesterday, but I didn't show up on your condorcet lists...
and then there's this post, regarding Xyzzy:
" I think this is a false dilemma where he states in 159 that the scum are the only ones who start with any information. There are way too many goofy roles that we as a community have invented that result in townies or third parties starting with informations either because the mod outright states it or because one mechanic implies another."

Why are you focusing on townies having knowledge and not on the more relevant fact, mafia having power, especially on a day one situation?

[Skruffs]

Foolinc - I'm at the top of the list, but you aren't explaining why.

WHYYYY? Because I was fricking roleblocked??

I know this sounds whiny, but I need to figure out why I'm so easy of a target. I'm pointing out things I think are honestly worth looking at. Scum know I'm not one of them, so I'm going to accumulate snide remarks until I have another wagon on them, and then I will be asked to claim. I can see it now. If you are suspicious of me for being roleblocked

and saying so

, just bring it out now, directly, with an accusation.

CES never explained his vote, foolinc hasn't explained his, and tamuz, well, he's pretty much indecipherable. I get the impression he's running his posts through altavista, translating them to italian and then to korean and then back to english. Or I'm just ignorant, but he says impossible fragments of statements and thten when asked about them, just doesn't respond or lapses into deeper discussions. IT's like listening to another Bush debate, which is funny, because he's sayign I have some sort of fanatic thing about Thesp, when as far as I am aware, I've never asked THesp for his opinion on anything.

GAH.

[Skruffs]

Foolinc - you think xyzzy was targetted at night and died the following day? Okay. What's your reasoning?

[Skruffs]

You've posted twice without responding to my qusetion, foolinc
WHY ARE YOU VOTING ME???

[Skruffs]

You used your list... which I was on... which is why you think I'm scummy.
Why did you think I was scummy before I revealed I had been blocked?
And why is being blocked scummy, in your eyes?

[Skruffs]

Wasn't your old list based on cubs and me being scum together?
Cubs is dead. That apparently doesn't mean anything?
BM also thought I was town, and is dead. I am quickly losing supporters here.
Doest hat make me scum?
And in regards to my soft claim, I'm sorry, but... it seems to me the best way to find scum is to be as honest as possible and as just as willing to share information. That gives us the best possible chance of the uniformed majority becoming informed before the mafia become the majority (ok, so the mafia will only get to 50% before winning, but screw it, I'm on a roll).

[Skruffs]

You think a mafia role blocker would block Skruffs of all players night one? With a claimed investigation role about, which they could not be sure they could kill?

>.<
The mafia KILLED BM. Why would they also waste a block on him?
BM is improving in play over how he used to be but he still has rather bad luck with night actions.

DP & MGM -
Superkills overwhelm doc protection. Why postulate things if you are not going to consider possibilities at all?

Foolinc -
Again, Tamuz voted me for misleading town with a bad role claim, before I had role claimed. He did not say anything about soft claiming until I pointed out that he had no idea what he was talking about and was just trying to pick an easy target.

Speaking of Mgm, I've taken a look at jeep's and xyzzy's posts and discovered that mgm, PlaysWithSquirrels (who was replaced by Gaspar), LoudMouthLee, and Skruffs are common votes between both players. There has to be a reason that both were nightkilled instead of scum attempting to get the town to lynch them.

Vote: Skruffs,

[Dani Banani, Gaspar], [PookyTheMagicalBear, IH, Mgm, Talitha, Tamuz ], [Adele, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dragon Phoenix, logicticus, LoudmouthLee, Thesp, VitaminR, Zindaras], no lynch, foolinc

That's the post where you moved me to the front of your list, and your explanation - that BM voted me (which is wrong if you look at BM's attitudes towards me at the end of the day) - does not jive with your new explanation. CAUGHT!

I guess it's possible a town role-blocker may have targeted me, and I won't presume to say I've been at the bottom of everyone's lists.

[Skruffs]

unvote

vote : Tamuz

, [IH, CES, Foolinc, Logicticus], [dp, zindaras, adele, MGM], [those not listed], [no lynch]

[Skruffs]

I didn't mean it like that, I meant like how in some games a mafia goon will have a one time super kill that avoids doctor protections and whatnot.

[Skruffs]

If someone is a poisoner, they wouldn't expect their target to be dead in the morning... I would think.

[Skruffs]

I'm pretty sur someone PM'd Mr. Grey with "Dantees in Fresno night choice" in the subject title and "Kill : BM" in the body. They clicked send, and Mr. Grey posted that BM died.

[Skruffs]

Maaaybe the doc didn't believe his claim and targetted someone else.. or (less likely) there are two roleblockers... etc, etc, etc

[Skruffs]

Ces, the same thing as foolinc said he has me up there, at one point. Why did you vote me yesterday? Was it because you saw me and cubs being scum together, because he pointed out that i was acting how i almost always do as town?

Considering cubs was mostly run up as an information lynch, to not use that information - to in fact continue holding the same theories from yesterday as today without being interested in exploring new paths, is scummy. And it took you how many real time days to settle on that as an excuse?

Basically you are interested in lynching, not in hunting. I'll keep you way up high on my list for that.

I'll do a condorcet list when i'm not on my cellphne.

[Skruffs]

Now that IH has claimed to not be from the book AND fossed any claims to the main character, that the game is titled after, i am pretty sure he's'a good lynch.

I have a theory about the game's setup, but. Not sure if talking about it is kosher. IH is not only fishing, he's'propagandizing.

Would anyone else care to claim to be explicitly from frezno and not the book?

[Skruffs]

I am not the one fishing, CES. Look at IH's post.

[Skruffs]

It seems like I point something out, and I get accused of the thing that I pointed out about someone else, and that's frustrating.


ABSOLUTELY not fishing, Pooky. You would understand that if you weren't trying to cover up for your scumbuddies mistakes. AGAIN.
Why are you constantly referring to football? If you were breadcrumbing, you should have done it in a more subtle way, because I checked, and except for a scumleague thread in mishmash, you aren't talking about football in any of your other games.



IH just

baited town

by saying "I'm pretty sure anyone from the book is scum" - Absolutely FIshing!!! Why would he say that?? Because he seems to know he's from OUTSide the book. Has anyone ELSE claimed to be from outside the book? CUbs? LML? BM did, but he also claimed to be from Paris in 1807.

Question about IH's theory that "People from the book are scum"...
Everyone who has claimed, has claimed roles from inside the book or about the book. Presumable, IH has no connection to the book. He is therefore NOT Dantesian in nature. THIS DESERVES TO BE CONSIDERED.

Take a moment and think about why Cubs would claim to be the count of monte cristo,

if he wasn't

.

Regarding the stupid theory that "only scum have secret worsd" (MORE BAITING!!)
IF only scum had secret words, WHY WOULD they say them all over the place, and then TELL people about them?

Lastly :
Claiming to be the count is scum?
Nobody counter claimed Cubs' count claim?
The game is about a man who was scizophrentic. Multiple personality disorder. Alraedy there have been two players who have been 'forms' of the count.

There will be more. And they will not be scummy.

Unvote

Vote : IH

[CES, pooky, foolinc, tamuz]

[Skruffs]

I'm playing horribly - and you can't come up with 25 words to talk about, oh, IH's fishing.
This is like Tamuz saying I was suspicious for outguessing the mod when DP said that me and DP were possibly from two different mafia families, before there was any indication of number/size of scum groups at all. Why are you ignoring IH and focussing on me?
Why don't you consider what IH said to be fishing?

[Skruffs]

I dunno, pooky, seems kind of noncommittal, something you seem to be fussy about yourself towards other players.
Just sayin.

[Skruffs]

So if you think IH is scummy - why are you picking on the person who noticess it while ignoring him?
This is the bulk of my questioning towards you.
Wether you have a readon me or not, would you say that I try to stimulate discussion and that I try to pull out things that I see as potentially in scummy in people? Do you think that is a scummy thing to do - looking at players and trying to base a decision on them?

[Skruffs]

"Why the hell ask this question if we already have two dead Fresninians? "
I can't tell if this is counter fishing, or not.
I said I have a theory.

[Skruffs]

Zindaras - IH's theory - that scum come from the book - means that LML and MGM - who have both claimed characters from the story series - are scum. One of those players, LML, was challenged to a duel where he would have died, if scum. He did not.

And IH's theory doesn't strike you as odd? Are you also claiming to be from Frezno?

[Skruffs]

IH - why did you answer Pooky's question for him? He deliberately avoided talking about the game, instead talking about the 25 word thing

and nothing else

, in his last post.

Pooky is talking about how he doesn't like it when people post that they don't have reads on other people. But he is intentionally avoiding commenting on the game or about things that are going on in the game, even things that

directly involve him

, while instead throwing out distractions about football, the 25 word limit, etc.

The reason I was asking about his breadcrumb is because I don't believe football was mentioned in the Dantes Inferno books - so there's no reason why it should be involved.

Pooky did similar things day one, regarding the fossing of me and not of you. I do not understand how he consider me bringing up something you said fishy, when the point I brought up was that you were being fishy.

"It does bring something interesting to mind though. There was no cubsfan counterclaim! I would personally be wary of a count of monte cristo claim after this. "
- There have been two versions of the count Dead already. So this statement is BAD. Both versions are shown to be town.


My theory is based almost entirely about what is known about players roles, and what they have claimed. This is why IH, and Pooky, to a smaller extent, and anyone else who claims to be Fresnian is more likely to be suspicious to me.

[Skruffs]

(Glork, obv.)

Skruffs, in the same backwards kind of way I cleared you from suspicion in Calvin&Hobbes Mafia, I think that IH's behavior regarding this matter is an indication that he's probably protown, even if he is severely misguided. I sense no maliciousness in his theory. Also, you should note that IH

does

suspect Mgm (he is currently voting Mgm). But it iis failure to notice the inconsistency with LmL's role, the duel result, and his current theory that makes me think he's just not got his head on straight.

And I was town in that game - and did not get lynched. Wether he is town or not, I would rather pull out suspicious things now and get a better feel for the basis behind his statements. If he doesn't have his head on straight, maybe it will help him realign it by pointing out things that are not easily understood.

[Skruffs]

I have an idea, but it involves lynching IH. >.>

Unvote

Vote : IH

, [pooky, ces, tamuz] [everyone else] [foolinc, skruffs, mgm] [no lynch] [loudmouthlee, mr. grey]

[Skruffs]

So you are saying that the first person to fish should be pardoned, unless they get caught, and then the person who catches them, should be punished, for catching them.
Gotcha.

"He answered my question for me"
Well I asked a question - this was your response :
"You're silly Lee, I don't actually take the time to count the words in my posts before I post them, I just keep typing to feel reasonably safe about it being 25 words.

What is wrong with padding my post count? I don't want to be replaced due to the 48 hour average rule and I'm too lazy to actually count how many posts I've made and calculate if I meet it or not.

It's not like I'm disguising the post as content or pretending it is content."

Complete avoidance of the question. He then answered the question. To me, it looks like he answered it for you.

AS for the "Dunno" - I responded to your question in my next post, immediately after the first one. The "Dunno" post was in response to you saying "i ran out of things to say". I was jabbing you for saying that you (basically) didn't have a read on Anyone in the game. If you had a read, I would think you would have shared it instead of talking abuot football and 25 word post counts. Unless only EXPLICITLY saying taht you have no reads is scummy, and only inferring it isn't.



What makes you think that IH believed he was fishing in the best interests of town?

"Now that IH has claimed to not be from the book AND fossed any claims to the main character, that the game is titled after, i am pretty sure he's'a good lynch.

I have a theory about the game's setup, but. Not sure if talking about it is kosher. IH is not only fishing, he's'propagandizing.

Would anyone else care to claim to be explicitly from frezno and not the book?"

That's the post that you accuse me of counter fishing. I was outright asking anyone to claim to be from Frezno rather than the book.

Every single person who has claimed - except BM, who is an exception - has claimed to be FROM THE BOOK. IH stated that he had a theory that people actually from the book were scum. While I personally know this to be wrong, because my role says that I am a character from the story line, I doubt that anyone else in this game has any particular reason to believe a claim.

Alternatively, I thought I would test IH's ludicrous theory by asking anyone who's role says they are from Frezno to claim as such. Nobody has. I Didn't expect anyone to. HA!

super mega ultra bobetchathlon point of contention

I'm sorry that you are angry, Pooks, at me. I'm sorry that I ask questions that you do not want people to ask. I think the problem stems from our mutually different take on how to play this game. Maybe if I had a group of 'friends' that had the same goal as me, people who understood me and knew that I was one of them, maybe I would be as relaxed and sedentary as you have been in this game. Similarly, maybe if you were haranged over every thing you did, and had accusations levelled at you that make absolutely no sense, you would understand why I'm playing so exacerbatingly.

Wait, I think I know what we can do to change this situation. I'll change my context.

Let me change what I'm talking about to sooth your frazzled mind. Something that you can relate to, something that you feel... comfortable.. with. Maybe you can get a good solid read on me with it. Maybe you won't be so angry at me.

I had a Fantasy Football Draft Last Night and the computer spat in my face and gave me that schmuck O.T. in the third round when Dave From The Internet used his computer to jack up my connection. I hate that guy. You might think I sound nuts, but the guy did it in the third and fifth rounds. I don't like that his computer took over mine like that because it was a major dick move. This is why I continue to advocate for a Live Draft so that I can use my patented Means of Intimidation to get the players that Colonel Mustard's Mana Deserves.

[Skruffs]

I at this moment have the capabilitie to strongly review the game, but people are saying foinc is going to be lynched. While i'd'be happier with pookie, IH, tamuz, or CES deaths, i think it's'important to get a claim from foolinc before his role is revealed.

Oh, and by the way betch, (ih)- i didn't incorporate xyzzy's role claim into my theory because he never claimed. Here's'a blast from the past: 'way to misrepresent me!'
More after i get home tonight.

[Skruffs]

Ummm....
I was looking at Foolinc's first post. I'm sure others have noticed it, but he talks about a serial killer - a poisoner - in his first post.
Odd. Of course the title of the introductory post was "Iocaine Powder", which is a poison, so that may be a nulltell.


I was looking thruogh the list of names and saw "

Gaspar

d Caderousse "
I blinked a few times.

Tamuz I don't see much other than a personal attack on me - what did you want me to respond to?

Also - I'm going to (in the morning) look back and see who's piped up with interesting posts right before deadline. People who slack during the 'discussion' time and try to encourage quick wagons at the end of the day... are bad. Bad.

MBl's posts are very entertaining.

IH is beginning to understand my theory, now, which is why I want him DEAD.

[Skruffs]

Wait, that came out wrong.
I don't want IH dead because he understands me, I want him dead because he's scum, but now he realizes the basis behind my reasoning. That sounds a LOT better.

[Skruffs]

Hmm. Foolins claim, cupled with his first post talking about poison, and such, coupled with Doctor D'avrigy 's actual role in the book, makes me a litle bit doubtful.

However, ther's no way I can justify trying to lynch a claimed powerole, even if I'm suspicious of the play behind it.

Plus, he claims to be from the book, which gives him credence in my eyes.

i hate my cell phone

[Skruffs]

I researched the name, and skimmed through the book for every instance of his name.
He was a doctor yes, but he never actually healed anyone, far as I can tell. He was villefort's personal 'death sceptor', and wound up leaving his employ if villefort would not reveal the secrets as to why his family was being poisoned. Yes, poisoned.

Now I haven't read the book so I could be wrong - maybe I Should, some night, because it seems like a timeless classic, but D'aborigine (as far as I can tell) wound up being more of a coroner rather than a life saving doctor, back when the chick was poisoning people. In a way - I would say - the role would have been better as an investigative role of some sort - or as an antidoter, preventing the poisoning of others.

This is, again, an uncultured view, but you asked my opinion so I gave it.


Talitha's last post kinda blows IH's theory wide open. Why would scum fake claim to be from the book if they are the only people who are actually from the book? THey would be fake claiming to be from Frezno. And, with the opposite of that situation...

[Skruffs]

I don't remember if ces or tamuz have changed their votes from me at all today. For all the talk about deadlines, he's not proactive. If there IS an sk, i think ces would be a great target, if they want to look like a vig.

[Skruffs]

Oh come on, primate AND glork making it to endgame? And town???

it was fun reading, i had a strong feeling that freznites were delusional, and i guess i was partially right.

I would have loved to have been able to replace back in... I died too soon *sniff*

[Skruffs]

Were there any "Dante's Inferno" references outside of the title?