Mini Normal 1719 - Flavorless Fun! [Game Over!]

[Hieirama]

Well, there goes the wagon.
Gotta give some love to the others though!

VOTE: Lalendra

[Hieirama]

Looks like a Dierfire + Hieirama scumteam. Now if only we can figure out the third...

You can build a scumread based on one post?

[Hieirama]

I also wanted to flag Hieirama's reaction. I feel like implosion was joking about a 'Dierfire + Hieirama scumteam' - but Hieirama's jumps in acting very serious/defensive:

Looks like a Dierfire + Hieirama scumteam. Now if only we can figure out the third...

You can build a scumread based on one post?

I'm not very good at catching joking tones through text.
Hm, reads without good evidence concerns me.

[Hieirama]

I'm still trying to comprehend what's going on… These quick reads and half-joking remarks are throwing me off.

I'll try anyway. No use for me if I just sit to the side.

Also, this is for posts up to post 66... I'll give more feedback after doing homework ah...

Spoiler: Dierfire

(Null)

He has one RVS post and we almost had a wagon going. Whoa, okay.

Spoiler: Garmr

(Null)

He just gave his opinion on what was going on, nothing alarming to me.

Spoiler: Haschel Cedricson

(Negative vibes)

Their posts can be looked at from so many different perspectives.
Either they're joking about their reasons, they actually have a reason that no one can figure out atm, or your just trying to mess things up with herrcombs.

Which one was it, Hischel? I'd like to get this out of my head.

Spoiler: implosion

(Minor Negative vibes)

So, he was probably joking about figuring out a scumteam already.

Sorry for not having a sense of humor.

You're trying to start a wagon on Felissan. I disagree with post 60;
reading post 48, I'm getting the impression that Feli's suspicions came mostly from gut feelings.

And where you said:

20: "I just don't get it."

That was not the main point. She was questioning myko's post. It almost looks like your trying to make post 20 look bad.

Spoiler: Dwlee99

(Positive vibes)

One small thing caught my concern:
The quick town reads.
They're joking/gut reads… I'm guessing you decided to share them, mainly just to joke a little? I'm not sure why else you would post them with no relevant evidence.
It can be looked at as fluffy.
Perhaps that's why Keyser may have suspected you.

It's all probably just RVS floof, I hope.

Then you said that they were serious… and I kind of got confused. To… what degree of seriousness?

I like really all his others posts. You have good arguments here and all, just that incident I'm not sure about!

Spoiler: Felissan

(Confused)

The beginning of post 48 contains quite a lot of information for just a gut read… Uhum…
I'm not sure what to make out of this really.

The "What do you mean by scumslip?" Argument is stong…

I'm unable to give much feedback here. Really just a lot of arguing against myko.

Spoiler: herrcombs

(Slight Town-Lean)

You do start questioning a few things, and your questioning does seem Town-motivated, not siding too strongly with anyone, which I like.

Spoiler: mykonian

(Minor Negative vibes)

That RVS incident was probably just you trying to get into the real game, I hope.
If your first few posts intended more than pushing the game, I have to express much more concern, however.

Calling Dwlee worthless because he didn't agree with your reads was a terrible move, though.

I feel like you're just the more aggressive type, huh? Should I bring some Meta into here and risk pissing off BBT?

Spoiler: Lalendra

(Null)

One post, just a question. Can't make much out of it.

UNVOTE: Lalendra

Spoiler: pistachi0n

(Null)

Two RVS votes, and perhaps making fun of OMGUS'. Meh.

Spoiler: Keyser Söze

(Null, could change to negative)

Some analysis, it isn't too strong though, a bit stretchy.
Myko could just be trying to move the game.
I took things too seriously, but it was a little more question-y than defense.

Spoiler: BlueBloodedToffee

(Null)

A couple joking here and there.
You started getting serious with post 32, yes?
You called Dwlee Town for more genuine reasons later on, I assume.
Post 46 is a very bare read.
Actually, all your posts have been quite short. I'd like to hear more soon!

Everything here will probably change later on. I'll try to keep these as updated as possible.

[Hieirama]

He asked me a question. I was responding to his question.

I don't know what to make of Hieirama's page 4 read list there. Especially since they're blatantly getting things wrong already:

Calling Dwlee worthless because he didn't agree with your reads was a terrible move, though.

That is not why myko called Dwlee worthless. Still, the effort to be transparent seems more town oriented than scum, and I like how they're starting to ask a few questions.

One thing real quick though, Hieirama: You should try to avoid putting votes/unvotes in spoiler tags. The mod mentioned at the beginning they won't be counted if you do that.

And a question for you Hieirama, since it looks like your account is fairly new: how much prior mafia experience do you have?

Post #51 made me think that's the reason...
((Okay and before I annoy anyone else how do you link to posts again...?))

Yeeah, I forgot that. Thanks.
UNVOTE:

This is an alt account, but I've been playing for a little over a month. I've played three games, this is the first one outside RtR.

yes herr that's nice and all.


we just had a page 4 player by player analysis by a player that doesn't understand the pace of the game and moreover is confused by it. I think there's more important stuff to talk about than dwlee's mess.

Should I go back to lurking or?

\

Spoiler: Dwlee99

(Positive vibes)

One small thing caught my concern:
The quick town reads.
They're joking/gut reads… I'm guessing you decided to share them, mainly just to joke a little? I'm not sure why else you would post them with no relevant evidence.
It can be looked at as fluffy.
Perhaps that's why Keyser may have suspected you.

It's all probably just RVS floof, I hope.

Then you said that they were serious… and I kind of got confused. To… what degree of seriousness?

I like really all his others posts. You have good arguments here and all, just that incident I'm not sure about!

So my read on implosion was 100% serious and I think he is town (I cited the reason of his aggressiveness and getting the game out of RVS)
The read on BBT was a joke but the posts that he made afterwards give me a town vibe from him.

I don't understand how it's manipulating. I was just quoting the specific part that I wanted to respond to. Like right here I wanted to cut out the last half of your post because it's not what I'm responding to. But I didn't just so I don't bother people when I don't need to.

Ok yeah fair enough, I suppose it's not manipulation to crop out the stuff about the "buddying," since it was a separate thought and not necessarily relevant. But I still think that the first sentence (the one you quoted) was leading into mykonian's argument:

Garmr already committed a scumtell trying to call someone town. There's no need for the word "honestly" there, it only makes sense from a point where scum is trying to think like town. The word "honestly" implies that he comes from a setting where he was prepared to lie this game, then found a situation where it wasn't necessary.

The manipulation is you implying the scum tell was "saying he doesn't see anything scummy," where myko was arguing it was a scum tell for the way he used the term "honestly" and what it could mean psychologically. You clipped myko's quote in a way that didn't represent what he was trying to say, and then sarcastically dismissed it. That is manipulation.

I've made my thoughts fairly clear regarding the "honestly" thing. So I quoted the other part of the argument to tackle that point. RIP my organization by cropping. (Still did it in the quote above hahah git rikt)

Ah, okay!
What made you feel the need to post those reads so early though?

[Hieirama]

Should I go back to lurking or?

you are a born winner.

Heh.

I made that readlist, you're right, to contribute a little bit more than a one-liner. I'm not sure how that's scum-oriented?
I'm not being helpful if all my opinions are all jumbled in my head. So why not share it, even if it's minor?
This is the fastest pace game I've played in. I do hate missing the boat.

If I don't attack the wagon when are people gonna actually give more reasons for it than stretched reads? The wagon just allows scum to hide by joining under the same reasons as everyone else. I need more from people than "Reads are stretched" when joining a wagon. I could also sit here and argue that stretching reads can be town trying to figure out the game.

I think stretched reads are the best evidence people have at this point...

[Hieirama]

Why am I not surprised by my wagon

Hm, anyway,

I'm not sure how that's scum-oriented?

Some of them have more trouble to get into a game. For town it's pretty natural to just see the last post and talk about what you think of it. Scum have more considerations. Your post was decidedly not natural, it stands out.

Scum can casually give opinions on recent events too, though, its not just a Town thing.
Yes I know it did. Sorry for not being casual?

so soze. You are still sitting on a dwlee vote. This seems outdated. Not saying you should vote garmr.

But at least vote hier then who more or less claimed scum with her reply.

Scum-lean read on Hieirama.

By post 76, Hieirama posted an extensive positive/null/negative "vibes" list based on everyone's posts (reads based on posts <#67).

Why positive/negative "vibes" and a

running narrative

on events, why not call them town/scum reads? He only committed giving a "Slight Town-Lean" to herrcombs. Noted.

I'm still trying to comprehend what's going on… These quick reads and half-joking remarks are throwing me off.

I'll try anyway. No use for me if I just sit to the side.

"I'll try anyway. No use for me if I just sit to the side."

- I am uncomfortable with this soliloquy, feels like this reads/vibes list has been tough work for Hieirama to express (and has maybe been posted a little too early).

VOTE: Hieirama

I dare say I tried to keep it as short as possible.

I'm a bit specific in intensity when I list my suspicions.
It simply goes:
Town-Read, Town-Lean, Positive Vibes, Null, Negative Vibes, Scum-Lean, Scum-Read.

So herrcombs has a stronger Town read then anyone with "Positive vibes".

Kind of. I'll restate it: "I'll attempt to form an analysis even though I don't fully get what's going on, because it's much better than lurking around."
I did have trouble at first because I wasn't exactly sure what everyone was pointing towards.
ISOing everyone and making that post did help me personally understand everything more, so no regrets.

Heir wagon?

complicated name - starts with H - is rather scummy.

I actually don't know where "Hier" came from. I expected to be called "Hiei" for short, but for some reason you disregarded the i, lol.

I find the wagon on Garmr to be weakly reasoned. Pistachion's reasons were weakest.
I thought that Mykonian's case on Hieirama was better than his case on Garmr was.

@Hieirama

Why did you post a read on me that included only my RVS vote and the wagon on me? What about the serious things that I posted?

EDIT Working on it!

Well, I only read up to post 66 there…
About post 66 now, it was kind of fast and too certain, you put no thought into counterarguments in there. That's not a great thing.

And apologies for not being the fastest at posting. I'm busy with school during the week.

Hieirama's reaction to your accusation--which one?

I could see this one coming from Mafia:

Should I go back to lurking or?

This one seems to combine confidence and insecurity:

Heh.

I made that readlist, you're right, to contribute a little bit more than a one-liner. I'm not sure how that's scum-oriented?
I'm not being helpful if all my opinions are all jumbled in my head. So why not share it, even if it's minor?
This is the fastest pace game I've played in. I do hate missing the boat.

I'd read the confidence as fake. I could see that from Mafia.

That was me trying to be sarcastic.

I can get where you're coming from here. There was a bit of confidence in there.
Mm, why would I want to take confidence, though?

[Hieirama]

I just wanted to study a bit and there goes a few pages of discussion to catch up on.

I can totally identify with Hieirama's feeling that as someone fresh out of the newbie queue, the pace of this game is noticeably faster. I can see how Hie is having a hard time jumping into discussions. However, I don't like the "Should I go back to lurking or?" bit in hie's 89. This on top of the questions imbedded in hie's readlist in 76, I think it could be a pretty easy way to feign scumhunting without actually trying to figure out the game. I'm fine with progressing that wagon. And a question to Hieirama: what would you consider to be the most interesting development so far in the game? Who is your top scum at this point?

It was sarcasm
I officially suck at everything joke related.

The popular

Honestly don't see anything scummy so far

wins my interest. Not really the quote itself, but on how much attention its given.

I don't have any

strong

scumleans on anyone, bad feelings, go back and read my list.

[Hieirama]

Tbh you can lynch me I'm not really an important power role just a bullet proof townie I was trying to draw attention to get someone to night kill me with a soft power role claim before but now I don't really care. My care factor for this game is zero. Because I didn't think anyone would be that retarded and mentally handicapped to follow with myko because of the word honestly.

It would've been better if you haven't claimed.
Even if you're actually BP it was a really anti-town move.
Going anti-town just because of frustration really isn't a nice thing to do.

The popular

In post 24, Garmr wrote:
Honestly don't see anything scummy so far

wins my interest. Not really the quote itself, but on how much attention its given.

OK. So what interests you about it? Do you think the attention it's getting is revealing any information? Are any of your reads from 76 developing as a result?

I thought the stretchy attention from Myko was just to get the game going, but it seems serious now…
I could see this as myko and two other scum building up from a small unimportant remark from Garmr, and the stress perhaps caused him to stress out and make that claim.

So if we Lynch Garmr, in my eyes its more of a policy Lynch…

-
@implosion
It takes guts to stand up for players being wagoned.
I'm feeling a little Town Motivation from it, but I'm not fully sure yet.

@ DWL: why did you feel the need to make that post? Like... you literally just opened Garmr's ISO, summarized each post, and added barely any analysis to it... And the last paragraph is just fluffy speculation.

IIOA? Uhoh, Dwlee…

[Hieirama]

My post wasn't IIoA. I had as much analysis as was completely possible for those 12 posts. And my main message was clear, they haven't scum hunted at all (except for a little on myko, kinda?) and their posts weren't very townie. I'd accept the level of scumminess they are displaying if they had actually done scumhunting.

Still... Try not to include too much obvious information that doesn't contribute to your read. It's making the post a little congested, and it unnecessarily floods my head with unneeded info.

I'm not a patient man so a messy quote it'll be.

Tbh you can lynch me I'm not really an important power role just a bullet proof townie I was trying to draw attention to get someone to night kill me with a soft power role claim before but now I don't really care. My care factor for this game is zero. Because I didn't think anyone would be that retarded and mentally handicapped to follow with myko because of the word honestly.

It would've been better if you haven't claimed.
Even if you're actually BP it was a really anti-town move.
Going anti-town just because of frustration really isn't a nice thing to do.

Ok. Not sure why you assume he's town in this. You are. Analysis is good, assumption seems off. Could be a scumtell but it's really blatant in that case. You could talk more about this.

The popular

In post 24, Garmr wrote:
Honestly don't see anything scummy so far

wins my interest. Not really the quote itself, but on how much attention its given.

OK. So what interests you about it? Do you think the attention it's getting is revealing any information? Are any of your reads from 76 developing as a result?

I thought the stretchy attention from Myko was just to get the game going, but it seems serious now…
I could see this as myko and two other scum building up from a small unimportant remark from Garmr, and the stress perhaps caused him to stress out and make that claim.

So if we Lynch Garmr, in my eyes its more of a policy Lynch…

3 scum just pushing a townie doesn't happen. Sometimes 3 end up in the same place, but organised pushes are near unheard of, and hard to organise. This makes me think you haven't exactly played all that much mafia, and even then I'm not sure why you take this explanation over any other simpler one. Why does it take an entire conspiracy to lynch someone who hasn't posted any analysis, has posted several defensive posts, and has made a dodgy claim (as you yourself so neatly explained).

I do have a policy of lynching people I think scum. I don't know why you call it a policy lynch, or construe it as if garmr's only scumtell has been his post on the first page. This hasn't been the case.

This… is my 4th Fourm Mafia game… yeah.

I'm bringing in the possibility of Garmr just being an anti-town, town.
I personally see this as the more likley scenario.

Yh, I can understand that.
If Garmr is Town then I have a strong feeling that the wagon was scum-driven, mainly because if how petty the original reason was. Could be three Mafia, could be one.

I use "policy lynch" incorrectly maybe? The way I see it is: This player's posts don't seem to have scum Motivation, but they're being toxic to the Town wincon. They're the best lynch until someone proves to be genuinely scummy.

[Hieirama]

You're a lot of fun when you do that,
Exaggerate and... Almost manipulate?

It's the most curious thing. You assume he's town then the scumtells aren't genuine.

that's the wrong way around!

Yes I assume he's Town.

The scumtells, which scumtells? I've only mentioned "scum" and "genuine" when addressing the possibily of someone else coming forward with a scummy attitude, to whom I'll switch my vote toward.

The "scummy" or "scumtell" or whatever in my reply wasn't pointing at Garmr.

I'm not too sure how that's a "wrong-way-around".

[Hieirama]

I personally assume he's Town.

Read them a lil' bit anyway. Looks like he's casually in some conversations, he is arguing against you and I agree: "honestly" is not a scumtell. It's so simple, yet everyone is looking badly at him anyway. I'm feeling more Town frustration then scum from him.
Besides vibes, I can't find any other post I don't like other than #117. Imo, he gave up.

But, to insist, bring in the scenario that he was scum. You've must've gotten really lucky for finding scum by the word "honestly". That's like... Kinda unlikely, and its not what I'd like to go with currently.

[Hieirama]

I dislike policy lynches, because even if someone's being anti-town, they're still a town player who is alive. I'd rather garmr replaced out and we got someone else who was worth something, but it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

I'm on mobile at the moment but I'll make a more extensive post when my computer decides to turn on.

P-edit: was it really necessary to quote a wall for a one-line comment?

Replacing out is ideal.
Players that become destructive to Town shouldn't stay around too long. We spend so much time trying to figure out what they're doing, when we could be spending that time finding actual scum.
Then scum will target them for an easy mislych during the worst scenario. (Keeping them alive for a LyLo, for example)

[Hieirama]

@Garmr
WB!
Glad to see that the vacation helped.
Reading that, my Town read on implosion gets a bit stronger too; I need to review Dwlee...
Eager to see your thoughts on Myko's play when you've been gone.

[Hieirama]

@Garmr
WB!
Glad to see that the vacation helped.
Reading that, my Town read on implosion gets a bit stronger too; I need to review Dwlee...
Eager to see your thoughts on Myko's play when you've been gone.

To be honest I'm starting to have doubts mykos scum. I'm starting to believe he may really be that crazy to believe what he is saying and I don't really want to believe someone who act like that in town exists...

Whoa, okay.
I have a hard time believing that he actually is. From his play so far it looks like intentional...
Or that's his destructive tactic of scumhunting ._.

Alright, a few notes, written as I get caught up.

Okay, we're out of RVS. Fine.
But let's look at Garmr's ISO -
21 - RVS
24 - "Honestly don't see anything scummy so far"

Garmr already committed a scumtell trying to call someone town.

So saying he doesn't see anything scummy is a scum tell? Okay, totally.

This is a horrible misrepresentation.

Not really. Dwlee was making a sarcastic point.
Myko said Garmr was trying to "call someone Town", and Dwlee stated the actual meaning of Garmr's message.

(Negative vibes)

Their posts can be looked at from so many different perspectives.
Either they're joking about their reasons, they actually have a reason that no one can figure out atm, or your just trying to mess things up with herrcombs.

Which one was it, Hischel? I'd like to get this out of my head.

Ooh, questions for me! Questions I see no reason to answer!

You're so helpful.

This is an alt account, but I've been playing for a little over a month. I've played three games, this is the first one outside RtR.

What made you want to create an alt account so early?

Should I go back to lurking or?

Are you saying you were intentionally lurking?

This was supposed to be a Mod account... But since I had to wait till its three months old I thought why not play some games.

I was only posting when addressed, and I wanted to get into the bigger arguments so I jumped in with a readlist and myko hated it. That's my attempt at a sarcastic reply.

[Hieirama]

What makes you think this is scum and not newb town?

hadn't considered it at that point.

the tell does work for newb scum but itsn't as watertight.

The thing that's really throwing me for a loop here is hier's view of the garmr's case. If she's (this is starting to bother me btw, are you a he or a she?) scum it's so incredibly blatant. I can't think of someone who'd play on ms for a couple of games who didn't run into a scum getting caught via defending a town too hard, it's just something that has been meta for a while now.

Hard is a shortcut btw. Where defense of a player goes from arguing why you think they are town to scum buddying and faking it is that scum tends to come from the position where they already know said person is town. As soon as that becomes obvious, said scum tends to get into trouble... and hier here does it without even considering alternatives. When you catch scum with it, you push the accused harder and at some point it transitions from just arguing into knowing they are town and using that. Here hier basically starts out from that viewpoint.

why? I don't have a clue.

(You're right, a she.)
This makes sense.
I did consider an alternative a little bit, though.

But, to insist, bring in the scenario that he was scum. You've must've gotten really lucky for finding scum by the word "honestly". That's like... Kinda unlikely, and its not what I'd like to go with currently.

It's just not the case I'd prefer to believe. I'm not trying to throw away chances.

[Hieirama]

It takes guts to stand up for players being wagoned.

No...it really doesn't.

I doubt a coward would do it.

[Hieirama]

It takes guts to stand up for players being wagoned.

No...it really doesn't.

I doubt a coward would do it.

Okay, fine, it either takes guts or it's scum who wants to gain town points.

But why would town care what other people think? Why not just defend the person you think is town?

Worst case scenario people will end up pointing their lynch at you.

Where the heck is this conversation going?

[Hieirama]

For now, my vote will go somewhere completely different...
VOTE: Hieirama
The wording in some of his posts just has a feel of uneasy scum (constantly insisting on whether his play is scummy or not, worrying too much about not doing enough) - I mainly think of these lines:

I made that readlist, you're right, to contribute a little bit more than a one-liner. I'm not sure how that's scum-oriented?

Scum can casually give opinions on recent events too, though, its not just a Town thing.

-snip-

Kind of. I'll restate it: "I'll attempt to form an analysis even though I don't fully get what's going on, because it's much better than lurking around."

I'd like to put a bit more pressure on him, hence my vote.

I totally skipped past this post lol.

Hmm, I meant to question why my actions seemed scummy, not insist I wasn't.
I get the second part. I do want contribute as much as possible.

[Hieirama]

PEdit:

I would still prefer to lynch Garmr but I would not be opposed to Dier as a compromise lynch, because yes, I am undecided and would be interested to see how he reacts.

Did I just read that right? I don't see how you would agree with a lynch on someone you don't have an opinion on...

I want to put pressure on him to get information. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Reading though it, I thought it was pretty clear if you include BBT's remark in 309.

[Hieirama]

I feel like our deadline is close.
Really could use a VC.

1. I was going to say that Hieirama seemed nervous and overly preoccupied with responding to everyone that mentioned Hieirama. However, I just noticed that Hieirama has responded somewhat selectively to being mentioned. Let's see...89 features responses to Herrcombs, Mykonian, and DWL. There's a response to Keyser and to me in 168. Hieirama does address some questions from you in 252, but neglects to respond to Lalendra's 259. I'm not really sure what to make of that.

Here I go again, responding selectively.
I'm not the best when it comes to jumping into conversations. I read the game and everything, but usually I have no strong opinions or suspicions on anything. ((Maybe I'll share some opinions later anyway? Just for the record.)) It's much easier to reply if addressed.

Mm, I don't have much to say about that post. I dislike the noob label, but it's true that I'm new to Mafia. OTL

[Hieirama]

Looking at her ISO since that vibes-list I cannot see Hieirama pro-actively scum-hunting (a passenger so far).

"This… is my 4th Fourm Mafia game…"

- I will need to look how she scum-hunted/pressed her scum-reads in games 1 to 3.

My main account's name is "Carcalilly", if you'd like to search that up.

Our deadline is still a week out.
Where's your vote now, and to where were you thinking of moving it?

Good.
I usually don't cast votes until I have evidence I'm content with.
There's a lot I want to say and get together, perhaps I'll get that done tomorrow on the way to school.
Really sorry for prolonging things, I suddenly become really occupied during the week.

Got to go, goodnight! vwv

[Hieirama]

Looking at her ISO since that vibes-list I cannot see Hieirama pro-actively scum-hunting (a passenger so far).

"This… is my 4th Fourm Mafia game…"

- I will need to look how she scum-hunted/pressed her scum-reads in games 1 to 3.

My main account's name is "Carcalilly", if you'd like to search that up.

I looked up one of your old newbie games (it's finished) - in it you found it hard to put labels or firm town/scum reads on players. You also did not engage in much direct scum-hunting in that game either (asking players questions, looking at wagons...) - this could be your newb-town-meta. You have a playstyle that aims not to offend - which may stop you from pressing someone you find suspicious. But it can be easily newb-scum-play too (not committing to a read to not provoke attention).

Hieirama:

"I usually don't cast votes until I have evidence I'm content with"

- I need to see

you

actively looking for "evidence".

Hieirama - Null read.

Alright... Thanks for the advice.
I'll try to be more proactive Day2.

[Hieirama]

What's stopping you from being proactive TODAY hieirama?

Well, the Day was kind of over already.


That quickhammer though

[Hieirama]

I've been a little busy lately, apologies.

There is no way you could of known that would have happened, so that's a bad response.

We had like, 2 or 3 irl days left anyway and a L-1. It seemed pretty likely for it to end soon...

What's stopping you from being proactive TODAY hieirama?

Well, the Day was kind of over already.


That quickhammer though

You don't get to claim that the day is basically over and also get mad at somebody for making it actually over. Care to explain?

^See reponse above
And I did not get mad? That line was supposed to be a "oh lol okay then" sort of thing

@Hieirama

For which player(s) would you like to cast a vote?

No one yet.
Mainly because I need to refresh my memory, give me a bit to re-read a couple things.

[Hieirama]

My games offsite last two days irl per day so obviously we could of gotten more information.
We're deviating from the point anway. My original point was that you promised activity the next day rather than just getting into it then and there. Why would you wait?

It thought would be nice to transit through a Night, and a couple of flips, I thought, could help quite a bit, so I could actually have a basis for things.

Aaand, I think implosion was NKed for being pro-town. Their posts had some really good content and they were trying to figure out the game.

I think the pistachi0wagon blew up unusually quickly; going from L-6 to lynched in one page isn't natural, particular given the amount (or lack thereof) of substantial discussion. Keyser's ISO analysis feels like a stretch and I don't care for BBT's 399 at all.

Hieirama, Lalendra, care to comment on that last wagon?

I agree, that went by way too fast. It could mainly be because our time was running out.

[Hieirama]

We had like, 2 or 3 irl days left anyway and a L-1. It seemed pretty likely for it to end soon...

The wagon went from L-1 to lynch in only 1.5 IRL days; you don't think something could have happened in double that time?

I agree, that went by way too fast. It could mainly be because our time was running out.

That's some hard-hitting analysis there. Which votes on the wagon do you not like and why?

Also, if you think it went by too fast, why didn't you say anything when it was actually happening? Why resign yourself to "Well, the day will probably end soon?"

Well one, the wagon formed abnormally quickly. Two, Day one was getting a bit muddy with all of it's stretched reads.
An idea that originally ran though my head was a Day2 "fresh start" but that was kind of cliché and someone had hammered already before I responded.
Also, when it was happening I did sort of question what was happening and what had triggered in((but I posted with the wrong account OTL))


And wow Garmr
thats a lot of "fuck"s in those last few paragraphs there.

[Hieirama]

And wow Garmr
thats a lot of "fuck"s in those last few paragraphs there.

Fuck is one of my fave words espically if I'm emphasizing something. What do you think of my post combined with the fact the slot was fellisan?

Feli only had 8 posts... Their 62 explains any odd wording they may have, and it sometimes looks as if they barley had time to read and comprehend everything before reacting. I don't have a terribly strong scum lean on him.

You have only a couple points I agree with:

#69:Jesus Christ this guy has nothing to say? No questions? No bandwagon even? He just adds clarity to a nickname, which isn't scummy at all, but it's scummy to me that it's all he says. I always find scum to be very inactive and trying to let time fly by day one. They want to raise as little suspicion as they can.
-Town rep.

I find this post pretty pathetic your attacking me for answering a question when in the next 22 minutes (I was at work or walking to work so I couldn't post much) I actually put down a serious vote. Your point is invalid. Also why you town rep it if your saying it's scummy I'm going to assume that's a typo. I find this a scummy reason to try and push as it's stretched and I don't think a town would try to attack from such a angle. It's something one would gloss over or just look in the iso and go Meh. It's painting me in a scummy light by bending the truth. if you paint a flower using shit it's still shit on the paper.

First of all, he said -Town rep because he's subtracting Town leans from you. He adds town rep by saying "+Town rep"
Post 69, yes, is a pathetic post to paint scummy.
And:

You also fucked up the line of events trying to misrep me here I soft claimed then hard claimed when people were being retarded and then to stop myself from stressing out I took a 1 and half day break which isn't even that long to gather my thoughts and feel better about myself. Your exaggerating it to be a giant fucking long time and trying to make it out that I was a lurker when in fact before that I was one of the more active players in this game.

This is true as well.

Everything in the middle is a bit muddy with wording thats a little hard for me to understand... But I can tell that you misunderstood a few things? ^^'?

[Hieirama]

Okay, we've established that the wagon formed quickly. Why do you think it formed quickly? Talk about the players on the wagon.

My least favorite vote of the wagon was Dierfire's

Pistachion's reads were somewhat superficial and certainly selective. In the face of previous lack of content that felt more intentional to me (dropping in for a line or two every now and again but not really engaging in meaningful dialogue--335 is a good example of jumping in briefly and then disappearing for another day), I think that it's enough for a vote.

UNVOTE: Hieirama
VOTE: Pistachi0n

Keyser's review also narrowed in on Pistachion quickly. I'd like to see a more complete review from him.

I don't get why people don't like how selective pistachi0n's reads were. Simply, he didn't have a read on them, and it can be better to leave them out then to post null fluff. ((I actually made the mistake of posting that kind of fluff earlier, I realize this and I apologize.))
And the lack of content this is a borderline lurking vote...

And then he questions Keyser's reasons for his vote? Keyser's reasons were better than his imo.
Hmm... I'm starting to get why people aren't liking Dier...

[Hieirama]

What other reason would there be? See, this sounds like you're just posting to say things rather than to provide us with any real analysis.

I wanted to throw my opinion in there. It's what I thought after reading everyone else's decisions on Implosion's death.

@Hieirama

I don't get why people don't like how selective pistachi0n's reads were. Simply, he didn't have a read on them, and it can be better to leave them out then to post null fluff. ((I actually made the mistake of posting that kind of fluff earlier, I realize this and I apologize.))
And the lack of content this is a borderline lurking vote...

Withholding opinions is detrimental to the Town and benefits the Mafia. Do you acknowledge this? Also, what is "a borderline lurking vote"?

And then he questions Keyser's reasons for his vote? Keyser's reasons were better than his imo.
Hmm... I'm starting to get why people aren't liking Dier...

I didn't question Keyser's reason for voting, but that's a separate matter. Why do you think that Keyser's reasons were better than mine? Do I understand correctly that you are therefore reading Garmr as Town?

What " withholding opinions"? I just said that pistachi0n probably didn't have an opinion at all. Yeah, withholding opinions if you have them is bad, that's why I mentioned my thoughts of Implosion. I find it odd for you to say that after calling me out on it.

You explained how his lack of contribution to Town was one reason for your vote, right? Posting fluff and not posting enough are two different things. Pista was doing a little bit of both, so I feel like the vote had a bit of "lurk" drive in it.

Keyser had:

It feels like pistachi0n is adjusting his read on Gamr to fit the general consensus.

Which sounded very scum driven.

Which I think is much better than following the "bad readlist" reason.

That question came out of nowhere? I feel like Garmr is just a big ragetown based on memory, but perhaps I'll reread a couple things.

[Hieirama]

@Herrcombs @meanmelter
I did skip by those posts, I was in a rush to reply previously since we were about to go out for lunch.

And one of my own: what is your opinion of Garmr right now? What do you think of his last few actions yesterday?

Hmm, went over this a couple times I think....
In post 232, post 227, and post 239.

My main opinion there still stands. The quickhammer was unexpected, but the message that went along with it made sense.

I'm curious as to why you'd ask that question, actually? It's been repeated a couple times, if my memory serves me right.

@Hieirama

You said you agreed with Garmr's last paragraph in his post. Can you explain to me, in your words, where you found me to be misrepresenting him and where I was making it seem like a "giant fucking long time?"

I agreed with the fact that you failed to address his break and how he came back.
I didn't get the "giant fucking long time" part, but I feel as if the " nothing productive " is an understatement,((understatement, misrep sort of go along))

He's presented a lot of defense because he has to. While doing so, he did list some reads of his Town reads and a couple of his scum reads.

[Hieirama]

@DWL: I think you're mixing up the Hieirama and Herrcombs slots lol. I can understand it can get confusing when people use the shortened forms, though (hier vs heir vs herr or w/e)

Guys, it's Hiei, not heir/hier.

[Hieirama]

I can't pronounce that.

Well you can spell it, can't you?

hier, that can't be your only post for today.

I'm occupied by something called school.

@Herrcombs @meanmelter
I did skip by those posts, I was in a rush to reply previously since we were about to go out for lunch.

And one of my own: what is your opinion of Garmr right now? What do you think of his last few actions yesterday?

Hmm, went over this a couple times I think....
In post 232, post 227, and post 239.

My main opinion there still stands. The quickhammer was unexpected, but the message that went along with it made sense.

I'm curious as to why you'd ask that question, actually?

It's been repeated a couple times, if my memory serves me right.

Well, I keep asking because you're apparently unable to answer it. I asked what your

current

opinion of Garmr is, and you link three posts from 8 pages before the end of D1, none of which substantiate a town-read on Garmr besides an "assumption" that he's town and the feeling that his outburst was "more Town frustration then scum."

And your answer to the second half of my question -- "unexpected" does not assign alignment, nor does the phrase "it made sense." You are intentionally avoiding my questions, giving answers that absolve you from any responsibility for an accurate read on Garmr, and this looks scummy as hell to me.

Yeah... I'm leaving my vote on you.

Unable to answer? Did you read what I've said?
You should be able to put it together that I have a Town-Lean on Garmr. It's kind of obvious. But if you really need it spelled out for you in a post, there you go.
Read, assumption, what's the difference again?

It was a way for me to explain why his quickhammer wasn't scummy to me (because it apparently was to others) since you did ask about his last few actions.

You asked me my opinions on Garmr and I said I assumed he was Town. That's not question dodging.

@Hieirama

You explained how his lack of contribution to Town was one reason for your vote, right? Posting fluff and not posting enough are two different things. Pista was doing a little bit of both, so I feel like the vote had a bit of "lurk" drive in it.

I'm still not quite getting this. Do you think that either of those things (posting fluff, not posting enough) are bad reasons to cast votes?

Posting fluff is an okay reason to cast a vote. Not posting enough, imo, isn't a good reason because it can be explained by RL things for example.

[Hieirama]

Umf, sorry, had to study for a test today.

@herrcombs

I read the game and everything, but usually I have no strong opinions or suspicions on anything. ((Maybe I'll share some opinions later anyway? Just for the record.)) It's much easier to reply if addressed.

This is exactly where scum want to reside. Scum want to sit on the fence, not giving any strong opinions, so when the wind blows just right, they can opportunistically jump on the town-consensus and not look suspicious. By giving actual opinions and suspicions, you put your own thoughts at risk and scrutiny. Scum don't like to be scrutinized. Town don't give a shit because they have nothing to hide.

I was trying to explain why I didn't jump into the conversations that were happening previously.

And, step back a bit, you're starting to go into the mechanics and the tells and you're not fitting them to the situation just right.

I mean; How does this "jumping onto the Town consensus" fit in this conflict? I'm Town reading the wagonee.

Read, assumption, what's the difference again?

Assumptions are, by definition, something you take for granted without backing proof or evidence. Reads (I think of them synonymous with arguments) require evidence to build and sustain. Throughout the game, reads develop based on new evidence that is presented. By demonstrating your reads are updating to events of the game, you show that you are thinking about the game and trying to solve who is scum. Scum will try to spin narratives and try to make the evidence fit their reads, rather than the other way around. After all, they're trying to mislynch the town, so they are required to lie to achieve their wincon.

So this is why I keep asking you for specific information. I want to see if your thought process is consistent with your play, and whether you're just trying to look townie or actually trying to figure out the game. I have not been satisfied with your responses to my queries. I asked you earlier (169) for your thoughts including your top scum read.

Your answer?

In 180 you referred me to your super-early readlist which came like 100 posts earlier. This told me that you were not updating your reads (I asked for a top scumread) based on the events of the game.

Similarly, I asked you in 467 to specifically provide a

current

read on Garmr. I was like you D1, where I wanted to believe his BP claim at its face, and I didn't want the wagon to go through in case we lynched a PR D1. However, over time I noticed things from him that began to look scummy, including his change-of-mind at the end of D1 up to and including his hammer, that were making me reconsider my read. I wanted to know if you were taking those actions into consideration.

Your answer?

In 520 you referred me to a set of posts you made 300 posts earlier and then implied that you hadn't really considered anything since then.

Alright, fine, should I use hypothesis instaid?
They felt just about the same thing to me, and it'd be wrong to say I have a Town-Lean on Garmr without reason.

I saw, "what're your thoughts on Garmr" and I think; "Eh, didn't I answer this already?". My opinions on who you asked for hasn't changed much, that's the thing you find very scummy I guess, but you know… Just because events didn't change my main opinion doesn't mean I didn't consider them.

It was a way for me to explain why his quickhammer wasn't scummy to me (because it apparently was to others) since you did ask about his last few actions.

But you didn't explain why his quickhammer wasn't scummy. You responded "That quickhammer though" immediately after it happened, which indicated you thought it was strange. And you later told me "the message that went along with it made sense." Which message? Was the message alignment-indicative (anyone in this game, scum or town, can produce posts that "make sense")? Does it excuse Garmr, who had stated "I am in [no] rush to end the day" (412), and then quickhammered without warning 16 hours later?

Sigh,

That line was supposed to be a "oh lol okay then" sort of thing

I should stop trying to joke around.

The message:

Changed my mind I'm eager to see how this slot flips.

This explains the quickhammer to me, so I don't see anything wrong about it. I said it made sense because it wasn't strange to me. ("Makes sense" is not a tell… its a label I use)
And yes, it does excuse him in my eyes.
What, so is changing your mind scummy now?

You asked me my opinions on Garmr and I said I assumed he was Town. That's not question dodging.

You didn't say "I assume he is Town." You linked me a set of old posts and then said "my main opinion there still stands." You never substantiated your opinion in the first place (aside from your 239 "I can't find any other post I don't like other than #117" -- which isn't even one of Garmr's posts!). You have not indicated your opinion is developing. To me, this is absolutely question dodging.

"My opinion still stands"
Past opinion was: "I assume he's Town."
Sorry, didn't feel like typing it out again.
I didn't substantiate it

well enough

. If you need a clarification, one reason why I Townread him is because his tone sounds like it's at a Town POV.

Oh, that was probably a formatting mistake lol. 95% of my posts are phoneposts((including this one)), I rarely have time to get on computers during the week.

[Hieirama]

Sigh... I think we're speaking a different language. This is not the first time this has happened to me. And I'm starting to believe that this might just be another one of my awful TvTs that I should abandon in order to catch someone who is more likely scum.

I've also done this once before but I actually didn't give it up so it ended badly. XD

@Herrcombs @meanmelter

@Hieirama

You said you agreed with Garmr's last paragraph in his post. Can you explain to me, in your words, where you found me to be misrepresenting him and where I was making it seem like a "giant fucking long time?"

I agreed with the fact that you failed to address his break and how he came back.
I didn't get the "giant fucking long time" part, but I feel as if the " nothing productive " is an understatement,((understatement, misrep sort of go along))

What is there to address about his break? He said he had zero motivation and that he might feel more motivated after two day break. He came back, gave a few reads and quick hammered Pistachi0n.

Perhaps you would like to inform me of what productive thing he did do?

You think the hardclaim was a scum thing, right? A counterargument would be that he ragequitted as Town and took a break, and he did come back better((at least imo he did)).

Sure.

242, Came back from break and gave Town reads.
269 and 270 scum reads.
And with that they continue to argue with people, mainly their scum reads. Arguing can be productive if done right, it can produce reads and opinions and all that good stuff.

[Hieirama]

@Hieirama

"My opinion still stands"
Past opinion was: "I assume he's Town."
Sorry, didn't feel like typing it out again.
I didn't substantiate it well enough. If you need a clarification, one reason why I Townread him is because his tone sounds like it's at a Town POV.

If you're reading Garmr as Town, then do you think that people voting for him are more likely to be Mafia?

Ehh I can see one consisting in there, but I'm not too positive since like almost everyone scumreads him. >_>
I think it's the evidence that they put up is more alignment indicative then the fact if they're voting or not.

[Hieirama]

Can we just make the observation that hier argues from the point where she already knows garmr is town, then finds the arguments to go with it? After that little has to be said there, I think.

I know it's scummy, I know it should get lynched, I don't know how someone got to play this game and not avoid it as a tell, I don't understand why it is happening.

Fgs I triggered the defense tell again?
//tiny rant
I'm going to defend people until they give me a reason not to.

People sometimes don't defend players because they're scared of being called out for it... Or they're wrong...
But defending has benefits: could prevent a mislynch if it's right, gives a lot of information to look into if they sometime flip, and it brings counterarguments.
All arguments need to be put forward. Otherwise scum can just drive the main argument if it's in their favor because no one dares to go against the main argument.

//

Also that would be terrible scum play. If Garmr was actually a PR then Scum should try to get him lynched, not keep him alive. :/

@p-edit: Votes aren't as alignment indicative as presented evidence is. You should analyze their argument rather then their vote.
Better?

[Hieirama]

Prod dodge, I got really fed up with some RL things.
Catching up ASAP

[Hieirama]

Still working on the catch up post with all the questions answered but I just want to add a little something that poped up when reading;

I don't think that this Lalandra v Garmr is Scum v Scum, and with myself doubting that either of them are scum with the uncounterclaimed claims...
This could be a big Town v Town, and I'm starting to see that as likley in my head.
The belief that one if them is Scum... If scum does get a mislych, it would look terrible for them when the other flips Town, as everyone else is believing that it's a Town v Scum....
So no I'm not taking sides on the Gar v Lala. I feel like scum is hiding along Town reads.. I'll try comparing Meta of a few after school.

[Hieirama]

@Garmr
Say that she hasn't done any

original

scumhunting would've fit nicer there. "Nothing at all", isn't necessarily true, since she does have reads and reasons to back them up.

I usually don't throw reads around based on hunting proficiency, since really, it varies from person to person.

((Oops, lunch break's over, g2g!))

[Hieirama]

I don't like the Haschel lynch if he's not here to react to his wagon or claim. :/
I'm slightly Townreading Garmr and Lala.
So I guess I can agree with a Dier lynch. How many votes?


@Garmr
I doubt that the reason they're being ignored...

[Hieirama]

Huh, okay.

vote: dierfire

@Dier
They haven't posted for 3 days now.

[Hieirama]

@dier
Not that it makes them less likely to be scum, its just not the best idea to lynch someone before they get a chance to claim and argue, since they could say something valuable.

[Hieirama]

and hey everyone we kinda have less than a day left so what're we agreeing on here?

[Hieirama]

Wow nice job guys O.O

Garmr, so does that mean that if a Mason claims they can't be Nked?

The night-kill is odd. Scum isn't trying to kill the towniest apparently, since BBT was read more suspiciously then people like Herr and Dwlee.
I don't think BBT PR-slipped, did they?

[Hieirama]

Dang

Myko, if you're town then how are you so

certain

Garmr is scum? :/

[Hieirama]

Garmr, so does that mean that if a Mason claims they can't be Nked?

Town masons are neither lynchproof or bulletproof, but if/when the Town Mason claims, they will be basically confirmed town.

I was reffering to Garmr's speculation;
If a Mason claims today then its not as likely for them to be NKed, since Lala would have to protect, or pretend to protect them.

Garmr, so does that mean that if a Mason claims they can't be Nked?

Town masons are neither lynchproof or bulletproof, but if/when the Town Mason claims, they will be basically confirmed town.

The night-kill is odd. Scum isn't trying to kill the

towniest

apparently, since BBT was read more suspiciously then people like Herr and Dwlee.
I don't think BBT PR-slipped, did they?

Who is the "towniest" player? ("Herr and Dwlee"?)
Yes, scum aren't interested in killing the 'towniest' townies - they want to kill PR's.

They do. They did, but I didn't get how scum would know BBT was a PR since I don't remember crumbing from them.
They seemed interested in it Night 1 since they killed a quite "townie" implosion.


Also, the wagons that have been happening were awfully lurk-induced. I'm against thinking that lurking is really alignment indicative because people simply may not have time.

@Hieirama

I feel like you're ignoring me.

Am I? I apologize.

The reasoning for staying off of the Haschel wagon in 764 is weak

I'm not going to join wagons if I don't have reasons I see fit ty
Its weak but I'd prefer them
I was obviously wrong though so OTL

reading both Lalendra and Garmr as Town should open up a whole host of questions as to where the Mafia are distributed on those wagons, but Hieirama ducks that analysis.

I'm not that into vc analysis particularly.
I think they're both Town and I think we've got scum hiding in some common townreads.
The NK makes me more suspicious of this, actually.

[Hieirama]

@Dier

Common Townreads; Dwlee, Herr, Keyser.
It unsettles me that it seems like scum haven't tried targeting them yet.

p.s. not liking how anti-Garmr Meanmelter is being

[Hieirama]

I'd like to jump in on this back and forth between Dier and Hiei --

these questions are for you, Hieirama:

I think they're both Town and I think we've got scum hiding in some common townreads.
The NK makes me more suspicious of this, actually.

Common Townreads; Dwlee, Herr, Keyser.
It unsettles me that it seems like scum haven't tried targeting them yet.

Which of those common townreads (between Dwlee, myself, and Keyser) do you think is/are scum? Do you have any reasons aside from the idea that "scum haven't tried targeting them yet?" And by targeting, do you mean targeting for NKs, or putting pressure on them during the day?

p.s. not liking how anti-Garmr Meanmelter is being

What makes you believe that it is more likely scum!Meanmelter trying to get town!Garmr lynched, rather than a town!Meanmelter following a strong scumread? Do you think Meanmelter is scumreading Garmr with substance, and if so, do you disagree with his reasoning?

1. Can't tell yet, but I have quite the suspicion.
Its the main reason why I feel that way, I don't think I have any other reasons.
NKs mainly. But there is a small lack of pushing around you guys. Guessing that scum already have some Townies in the common scumread zone ((Lala/Garmr/)) so there is no need to push suspicion around to different people to get a mislynch.

Ehh the tunnel is huge here, tho it isn't really a scumtell, so you have a good point there.
Um, sort of, I haven't re-read anything but I remember the Claim/quickhammer being key points of evidence. There's some "you're so scummy" and "wtf are you doing" ((Not those exact words, its the manner)) that sort of lengthen the posts without adding substance.

[Hieirama]

@Garmr I'm not really 100% sure.

[Hieirama]

It was actually worse Day 2.

[Hieirama]

What the heck was that, Dwlee...?
Are you claiming something other than VT?

I really want Hieirama to cast a vote.

Ookay.
VOTE: Meanmelter
Didn't feel that good about his tunnel, and I did agree with Garmr that there was a bit of misrep in his case. Also, the point Dwlee made about the refusing the defense accusations.

A quick diversion -- I'm not a fan of Hieirama's 1002 for the same reason I've not been a fan of most of her play so far. So much vague language, so little desire to reread anything or analyze what has transpired in the game. I wanted real answers to my questions in 984, not just fencesitting without having reread the game and without indicating a desire to figure out the game to any depth. I can't take your reads seriously, Hieirama, if you just make posts like 955 and 983 without substantiation, and continue not to substantiate them after being pressured.

If I have an opinion, I'll say it. If I don't have evidence to back it up, I'll still say it anyway. Don't need evidence to have an opinion and share it... Though it does help people take you more seriously, I guess.