Mini Normal 1719 - Flavorless Fun! [Game Over!]

[Haschel Cedricson]

Vote: herrcombs

. He knows why.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Nope. Why's that?

Think harder.

ooooh someone is lying here. Fun!

It's him.

[Haschel Cedricson]

lolwut is going on

Excellent question. Care to share the answer?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Well, this certainly exploded while I was at work.

Got a few things I need to do tonight but I'll try to get caught up before I go to bed.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Alright, a few notes, written as I get caught up.

Okay, we're out of RVS. Fine.
But let's look at Garmr's ISO -
21 - RVS
24 - "Honestly don't see anything scummy so far"

Garmr already committed a scumtell trying to call someone town.

So saying he doesn't see anything scummy is a scum tell? Okay, totally.

This is a horrible misrepresentation.

Garmr already committed a scumtell trying to call someone town

. There's no need for the word "honestly" there, it only makes sense from a point where scum is trying to think like town. The word "honestly" implies that he comes from a setting where he was prepared to lie this game, then found a situation where it wasn't necessary. Add to this that he's

stepping in to protect someone from an accusation

and that little sentence becomes quite damning.

Buddying and at the same time

showing off his mindset is scummy.

So dwlee, are we out of rvs?

Gamr didn't call anyone/someone town though:

Honestly don't see anything scummy so far

We were in RVS:

who is the "someone" you think he called town/was trying to buddy up with/stepping in to protect?

This is a fair point, though.

Unvote

VOTE: Felissan
"I just don't get a townvibe from you" after a vote feels like appeasement + a psychological desire not to commit to the read. I haven't actually read the rest of the post. I will when I can.

Good post here. I don't care for people citing "vibes" as a main reason for voting for someone.

I clipped it out because the rest was gibberish about him saying the word "honestly". He did say some stuff about it being him buddying and "Add to this that he's stepping in to protect someone from an accusation and that little sentence becomes quite damning." but it's a weak case that relies on saying the word "honestly" being a scum tell, which, like you said, isn't one.

Yeah, but your original quote ("So saying he doesn't see anything scummy is a scum tell? Okay, totally") ignored the part of his post where he thought Garmr was scummy for buddying someone (pretty sure that someone was me). Not sure why you felt you had to manipulate mykonian's 37 to get your point across.

pedit: What's with the caustic aggression coming out of mykonian? Calling another player after a very short back-and-forth "either a worthless town or a worthless scum", and then dehumanizing him by calling him "it"... No clue if this is a matter of playstyle or if he's getting super bent out of shape because his 37 was jumped on, or what. But it doesn't seem like myko is working to get past it, either way. Just seems to be instigating a fight with Dwlee. Also, noted that mykonian is ignoring Dwlee's reasoning for voting Soze and trying to insist it's simply OMGUS.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mykonian

Now this is interesting. Herr calls out Dwlee for manipulating mykonian's words, but then votes for mykonian for tone reasons. Don't like this one bit.

(Negative vibes)

Their posts can be looked at from so many different perspectives.
Either they're joking about their reasons, they actually have a reason that no one can figure out atm, or your just trying to mess things up with herrcombs.

Which one was it, Hischel? I'd like to get this out of my head.

Ooh, questions for me! Questions I see no reason to answer!

lolwut

I was just joking

but now that scumslip. This is actually interesting.

This is reaching and he has yet to respond to multiple people questioning it.

VOTE: mykonian

Really? THAT'S the reason you're going to give for your vote?

I made that readlist, you're right, to contribute a little bit more than a one-liner. I'm not sure how that's scum-oriented?
I'm not being helpful if all my opinions are all jumbled in my head. So why not share it, even if it's minor?
This is the fastest pace game I've played in. I do hate missing the boat.

This is scummy.

Don't feel like scrolling up to find the quotes, but I don't like Keyser's rolefishing or the fact that Garmr bites on it.

Tbh you can lynch me I'm not really an important power role just a bullet proof townie I was trying to draw attention to get someone to night kill me with a soft power role claim before but now I don't really care. My care factor for this game is zero. Because I didn't think anyone would be that retarded and mentally handicapped to follow with myko because of the word honestly.

Jesus Christ. If you don't care about a game, replace out; claiming is anti-town. Nevertheless now the question is, is Garmr a big enough asshole to use the word "retarded" to try and bolster emotional support for his fakeclaim? I don't know; I haven't played with him before. I hope the answer is "No".

Garmr is like 99% town. There's nearly zero reason for him to claim bulletproof townie here as scum. 177-178 is a genuine emotional outburst.

Leaning towards agreeing with this.

I'm particularly interested to see mykonian's take on the claim, incidentally.

I dislike that it was lead by a softclaim.

I call bullshit on his mention that he doesn't mind to be lynched: then what was the purpose of a claim there?

Actually, I think the softclaim actually makes the claim more likely.

There's a difference between not scum hunting, and just not posting walls and pointless read-lists. If you have questions I'll answer them, but I typically wait until I feel like I have a solid case on someone before I say something, rather than making lists of leans and nulls

Alright! What specifically makes you not a fan of Garmr's claim? What posts from mykonian have been crap and why?

Alright, Townreads are mykonian, implosion, Garmr, and Herrcombs.

Unvote: Herrcombs

Don't care for Dwlee, Lalendra, or Hieirama.

Going to bed now to sleep on all of this, and I'll try not to fall behind again.

[Haschel Cedricson]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra
Never answered my questions. Says in 235 they'll make a more exstensive when their computer turns on yet it has been 13 hours since that post with no post. Should probably just FoS but idc.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, this is a vote for lurking, yes?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Mykonian – Really still want to know why you thought 18 was a scumslip, and I don’t know how to interpret you dodging the questions about this one. As Keyser pointed out in 45, your case on him as scum was based on him buddying and protecting, which he wasn’t because he didn’t name anyone and we were still in RVS.
This has been beaten to death and probably isn’t relevant anymore but I just needed to get it out there.

Spoiler:

51 just doesn’t make any sense.
Garmr: Honestly don’t see anything scummy
Myko: Garmr committed a scumtell.
Dwlee: So saying he doesn’t see anything scummy is a scum tell?
Myko: how is that your conclusion after that post. It’s not even close to the message I put up there.
THAT’S LITERALLY EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID. Yet somehow that “makes everything dwlee says worthless for [mykonian] from now on.” Please explain to me how any of this makes sense.

Perhaps the thing that bugs me most about myko is that I don’t actually think he’s scum, but he’s the scummiest town I’ve seen in a while if that’s the case. *sigh*
UNVOTE: myko

Hieirama – 76 seems like feigned scumhunting, as pointed out by herrcombs in 169. Could just be noobtown, someone who is trying to figure things out but not really sure where to go, but reads more like noobscum. Not a fan of how 180 only addresses one point out of the many questions she could have chosen to respond to, and then goes on to bring us back to Garmr’s 24. At the same time, in more recent posts, she has explained her reasoning, explained that she is new and may not be interpreting everything correctly, and has made some interesting points, so I'm starting to lean more noobtown.

Herrcombs – Re: your read on Soze’s 142 (in 169), I don’t necessarily feel like it’s anti-town to point out soft-claims, because it’s usually a pretty good indicator of scum imo. A town player wouldn’t really feel the need to soft-claim unless they were under a LOT of pressure, which I don’t think he was at that point in time.

I think that the logic is very natural. I will break it down. Town players vote for those they believe to be Mafia. Mafia players vote for those they know to be Town (except when voting players they know to be Mafia, which is presumably less frequent). So, if I believe a player to be Town (such as DWL), others voting for that player are more likely to be Mafia than are others voting for some other player.

This is interesting logic, but something feels off to me about it, too. You say "players voting DWL are more likely to be Mafia." More likely than what? Than random? Using this logic with no supporting scumreads gives a probability marginally better than random to find scum. It's kinda like a really weak process of elimination, and it feels strange seeing it as the sole justification for a vote so early into the game.

I think his logic makes sense. Players voting DWL are more likely to be mafia than are others voting for some other player. The answer to your question is literally in his post. I think it’s actually fairly good logic for so early in the game, when we have little else to go on.

Dwlee99 – Reads as town to me due to the level of analysis that he’s engaging in. He’s being proactive, not reactive, and I particularly like the exchanges with myko. Though they are diametrically opposed in a lot of ways, in terms of playstyle and reads, I think they're both town.

Implosion – Why did you think Dierfire + Hieirama scum team in 23? Re: your case on Garmr (leading up to 195), I don’t necessarily agree but I like the way you are approaching the analysis.

Haschel Cedricson – Do you feel like explaining your weird cryptic interaction with herrcombs in 9? It might not even be relevant but I'm curious and I find it odd that people just forgot about it in the wake of the Garmr fiasco.

Garmr – “Honestly” was interesting, but I don’t think it was as much of a scumtell as everyone seemed to think it was. 96 also feels to me like he is being overly-defensive town, I really don’t think that it is a scummy post. But then along comes 171. What is the purpose of this post? Why say you’re a power role if you’re not willing to say what? Why claim when no one asked you to? Why so cryptic? And then you just give up on the game. Anti-town at best. Don’t play if you’re just going to totally screw your team by playing poorly and then giving up. I dislike PL but this is the wagon that I am most inclined to pursue at this point, because as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.
VOTE: Garmr

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra
Never answered my questions. Says in 235 they'll make a more exstensive when their computer turns on yet it has been 13 hours since that post with no post. Should probably just FoS but idc.

I got promoted (yay), worked a crapton of OT this week (boo), fell behind, and when I finally had some downtime and was ready to play last night, my computer decided to derp hard and spend two hours installing/uninstalling/reinstalling windows updates. But here I am now. I think that the rest of this post answers your questions but if it doesn't let me know.

P-edit: @dwlee, Congratulations. I hadn't turned mine on in a month so it had some catching up to do.

Why say you’re a power role if you’re not willing to say what? Why claim when no one asked you to? Why so cryptic? And then you just give up on the game. Anti-town at best. Don’t play if you’re just going to totally screw your team by playing poorly and then giving up. I dislike PL but this is the wagon that I am most inclined to pursue at this point, because as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.

First off, assuming he's telling the truth it makes perfect sense to not specify a power role. Second, doesn't lynching anti-town instead of scum screw over the town by compunding things even more?

Also, I asked you which mykonian posts were full of crap and all of the posts you talked about were post 51 and earlier. Is there a reason for this?

[Haschel Cedricson]

@Haschel

Now this is interesting. Herr calls out Dwlee for manipulating mykonian's words, but then votes for mykonian for tone reasons. Don't like this one bit.
---SNIP---
Alright, Townreads are mykonian, implosion, Garmr, and Herrcombs.

Unvote: Herrcombs

How did you settle on reading Herrcombs as Town?

Starting at 84 his posts get much better in his interaction with myko. I also like his reaction to the Garmr situation.

PEdit:

I would still prefer to lynch Garmr but I would not be opposed to Dier as a compromise lynch, because yes, I am undecided and would be interested to see how he reacts.

Did I just read that right? I don't see how you would agree with a lynch on someone you don't have an opinion on...

I want to put pressure on him to get information. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Then don't vote for him, pressure him.

Vote: Lalendra

[Haschel Cedricson]

Hey, I'm a few pages back but I saw this post yesterday and wanted to respond to it before I get caught up:

This vote is bad because there is no reason to think Lalendra is scum from that post. In my eyes the main way you pressure for reads is by voting them (something that haschel doesn't agree on apparently) because he says "Then don't vote for him, pressure him". Haschel seems to think that Lalendra being interested in a Dier wagon for information is not the proper way too go about it. (even though that is the point of wagons, correct?) Even if what Haschel pointed out is a scum tell it should be a FoS and isn't deserving a vote.

This is probably getting into Philosophy (see sig), but I don't believe that votes are inherently pressureful. In fact, a pressure vote that is explicitly stated to be a pressure vote applies no pressure at all, because the target knows it's not being cast out of a desire to see a lynch. So yeah, when I see somebody apply a self-described pressure vote and then not actually pressure the player, yeah, I think that's scummy. And don't tell me what "should" be an FoS; I think it's worthy of a vote. If you don't, then that fact is duly noted.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I just don't understand how you can apply pressure without a vote.

You make an excellent point. That, of course, is why every post in every game consists of two words and only two words - "vote" followed by a player's name.

Wait, "excellent" is the wrong word. I meant "craptacular".

I want to see some reads from you or something that looks like you're trying to figure out the game.

Dierfire--Town, seems to be trying to figure people out, questioning people, moving the game along.

Garmr--I'm not as certain of my scumread as I was earlier, when he claimed it seemed like he was making an appeal to emotion but then he came back strong, I thought 242 and after were good.

Haschel--Null, not a lot of stuff, I don't really understand why he voted Lelandra but there's nothing overtly scummy

Implosion--Weak scum, I still think the defense of Garmr was to try to get town points, whether or not Garmr is scum.

Dwlee--Current scumread, early on was asking filler questions, read like he was posting just to post. He has a lot of content but a lot of it is filler.

VOTE: Dwlee

Alright, pistachi0n. Why did you give a read on me? Why did you not give a read on mykonian? And what part of Implosion's defense of Garmr do you take issue with?

[Haschel Cedricson]

What's stopping you from being proactive TODAY hieirama?

Well, the Day was kind of over already.


That quickhammer though

:siren: BADPOST ALERT :siren:

[Haschel Cedricson]

What's stopping you from being proactive TODAY hieirama?

Well, the Day was kind of over already.


That quickhammer though

You don't get to claim that the day is basically over and also get mad at somebody for making it actually over. Care to explain?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Hey Haschel, your very...quiet this game.

Let's talk. Thoughts on Dier and Mykonian?

Pro-town on both, albeit stronger for Dier. Dier's reads are well-founded and tend to go in similar directions to mine. I like Mykonian's methods and don't see scum motivation behind them, with the caveat that I don't care for his reaction to Garmr's claim.

I think the pistachi0wagon blew up unusually quickly; going from L-6 to lynched in one page isn't natural, particular given the amount (or lack thereof) of substantial discussion. Keyser's ISO analysis feels like a stretch and I don't care for BBT's 399 at all.

Hieirama, Lalendra, care to comment on that last wagon?

[Haschel Cedricson]

I think garmr and Dier were the scummiest on pistachios wagon.

Why?

[Haschel Cedricson]

We had like, 2 or 3 irl days left anyway and a L-1. It seemed pretty likely for it to end soon...

The wagon went from L-1 to lynch in only 1.5 IRL days; you don't think something could have happened in double that time?

I agree, that went by way too fast. It could mainly be because our time was running out.

That's some hard-hitting analysis there. Which votes on the wagon do you not like and why?

Also, if you think it went by too fast, why didn't you say anything when it was actually happening? Why resign yourself to "Well, the day will probably end soon?"

[Haschel Cedricson]

I think garmr and Dier were the scummiest on pistachios wagon.

Why?

Read my ISO, I think I've been pretty clear about my cases for both of them.

So you mean they were the scummiest players who both happened to be on the wagon? Nobody's vote on the wagon is scummy in and of itself?

Well one, the wagon formed abnormally quickly. Two, Day one was getting a bit muddy with all of it's stretched reads.
An idea that originally ran though my head was a Day2 "fresh start" but that was kind of cliché and someone had hammered already before I responded.
Also, when it was happening I did sort of question what was happening and what had triggered in((but I posted with the wrong account OTL))

Okay, we've established that the wagon formed quickly. Why do you think it formed quickly? Talk about the players on the wagon.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Honestly I wasn't a fan of pistachio before the flip, so I can't really disagree with anyone voting for him.

And does the context of the speed of the wagon change anything?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Going to look at Lalendra and Haschel Cedricson ISO's next - two players I neither have a town or scum read of. I have played with Haschel Cedricson before (in that mini-normal he grabbed the game by the balls and scum-hunted hard, but he has been notably quiet this game (17 posts).

I fell behind early and have had a hard time finding my feet; I play much better when I find something that I can lead the charge on. So far I'm not finding a ton to work with.

Why did you not call it a "stretch" on D1?

Because I wanted to interrogate pistachio a little bit and then the day ended.

I don't get why people don't like how selective pistachi0n's reads were. Simply, he didn't have a read on them, and it can be better to leave them out then to post null fluff. ((I actually made the mistake of posting that kind of fluff earlier, I realize this and I apologize.))
And the lack of content this is a borderline lurking vote...

The problem with that is that of the five reads he gave, two of them WERE null reads.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Hey, I've been busy getting my own game off the ground. I'll get caught up tomorrow, I promise. Might even vote!

[Haschel Cedricson]

Did a quick skim. A Lalendra vote is exactly the sort of thing I can get behind.

Vote: Lalendra

. Wouldn't mind a Hieirama lynch either.

[Haschel Cedricson]

It seems to me the question is if we think a doctor and a bulletproof townie would both be in the same game.

[Haschel Cedricson]

@Haschel Cedricson Do you not feel that others who have posted a small amount of reads are also worth voting for? AKA Me and Garmr

You misunderstand me; my problem was not with pistachio's list (Well, I had a problem with it but it wasn't the one I was referring to in the post you quoted); it was with Hieirama saying that the reason pistachio's list was so short was because he didn't want to give null reads, despite the fact that 2/5 of his list was in fact null reads.

I am also really dissatisfied that, even though you were(are?) busy with your game, you would only come back with such a small post. I know you said you did a quick skim, but how can you be so confident in a vote with something like that?

I'm confident enough. I think the tunnelling on Garmr is coming off as desperate, and combined with my earlier suspicions I feel comfortable making a vote.

[Haschel Cedricson]

ok. I was going to make a prod dodge post when I saw you actually pushed someone to l-1 and a claim, but I can say this.

Haschel scummily lurked through day 1. Didn't show up day 2. Suddenly gets behind a wagon. I won't lynch anyone but garmr or haschel today. Take your pick.

First off, I was on the Lalendra wagon yesterday. Second, it's a good wagon. Do you disagree with the substance behind it? Because if so you sure aren't showing it in your posts.

@Haschel

It seems to me the question is if we think a doctor and a bulletproof townie would both be in the same game.

As you didn't remove your vote, I assume that you think not?

I doubt it. I also agree with your point about the frequency of roleclaims in this game's wagons. I also tend to be skeptical of doc claims in general, but I acknowledge that's probably a confirmation bias thing on my part.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Prod acknowledge.

I'll try to get something done tonight, but no promises; my computer keeps grinding to a halt.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Good job, team; once I got the feeling I was going to be lynched either that day or the next, I shifted into damage control by trying to cast doubt on Garmr's claim by buddying and went out of my way to leave no connections to my teammates at all.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I also have no problem with the Mafia thread being released.