Blitz 1: C9++ (GAME OVER!)

[Persivul]

UNVOTE:

But unless there's another claim, I'm taking Kop's as good. We're at an odd number of letters, and that's consistent with no SK.

[Persivul]

Ocean: Mason
Persival: Mason
Marge: vt
Kop: doc
Prohawk: vt
Ranger:
Flubber:

Prohawk claimed VT in his first post.

[Persivul]

Everyone is claiming because it's probably mislynch lose.

I'm thinking a no lynch here might be an option.

Why are you two saying it's mylo when it's clear from the setup and flips that we're almost certainly in lylo?

[Persivul]

Did you crumb your role at all? If so where?

[Persivul]

the Mason claim (that is lying because all you have to do is read persivul ISO and see he never defended ocean when people pushed him)

What game have you been in? Did you miss these defenses?

1273 1287 1339 1382 1464 1478

[Persivul]

Yup.

So you didn't really read my ISO looking for ocean defenses, but you claimed you did. Got it.

When I get home I'll have some wonderful quotes for you too.

Cool. You can show that ocean defended me as well, but there's no third party that we mutually defended - perfectly consistent with masons.

[Persivul]

Yep. Note that ocean first defended me by basically saying I was incompetent, but not scummy. It pissed me off a little but I understood why he did it.

[Persivul]

As promised I'm using quotes to show why I see the mason claim is fake as shit.

Spoiler:

Blocky shouldn't be at L-1. Agreeing with the current wagons can be opportunistic. It can also mean that the people on those wagons are making good arguments and persuading people, which is what town is supposed to do. I rather think someone is opportunistic when they make abrupt changes from one wagon to another.

On the positive side, he noted that Ranger is buddying, which is something I thought too after Ranger proposed a town block.

Four people - Kraeg, Ocean, Kop, ETL - have post counts in the single digits. I'll bet there's 1-2 scum there. From the rest I'm suspicious of Marge and Ranger.

I hate Titus' breaking idea, but I butt heads with Titus on breaking almost every time we play together so that's not giving me a read.

Ocean is listed as players that are low posting and maybe scum.

Of course. How do I just list 3 people under single digits when there were 4? You don't get how to play mason. Until you claim, you need to maintain some amount of independence, or scum will spot it and kill you.

Spoiler:

Reads preview:

Town - Flubber, ETL
Lean town - Ythan

Lean scum - Kop
Scum - Margeside

Will sort the rest later.

Maybe people could put up reads instead of bare votes so we actually have something to analyze...

Ocean is not on town list.

Same issue. At that point in the game I didn't have a good independent case that ocean was town, so I left him off the list. You can't just go saying your partner is town if you're not ready to back it up.

Spoiler:

Firebringer's ISO reads like a heckler at open mike night. He just criticizes other people's pushes but doesn't make any of his own. I forgot that he even advocated no lynch at one point.

I wouldn't mind lynching him either, but I prefer getting the ocean flip first.

In thread ocean hasn't pinged me. I need to read her ISO. What are the top points of the case on her?

Asking about a case on ocean instead of saying ocean is town.

Come on Marge, you're not this dumb. I correctly put this post in my list of defenses of ocean. "In thread ocean hasn't pinged me" is clearly a defense. I likewise asked for a case because at that point, not much had been put forward. I followed up on that point with 1339 1382 and 1464 showing how weak the supposed case was.

Spoiler:

In thread ocean hasn't pinged me. I need to read her ISO. What are the top points of the case on her?

Are you trying to outdo Flubber as far as dumb is concerned or do you not know how to read the "pronoun" section of someone's profile tag?

I didn't notice
oceanwind's a feminine
guy name are you gay

Mason's would have already discussed gender at this point in a pt.

You actually support our claim with this point.

In 2-person pt you talk in second person - you - which isn't gender specific, so it never came up.

However, the setup shows there are 3 scum. In 3-person pt, it's more likely (though not certain) that he/she would have been used at times and gender would have come up.

Spoiler:

someone please tell me
what the charges are on him
and maybe we will

This post is in regards to ocean being scum read.
Again not defending and saying maybe lynch.

Anyone thinking that lynching there mason buddy is playing to your win condition let me know.

Again, pointing out the lack of a case is indeed a way of defending, as shown above.

Now let's look at your views on the claim:

Vote: ocean

Yesterday you vote ocean.

In 1569 ocean claims mason.

I have theory so I'm going to do something else with my vote.

Vote: Kop

After the claim, you change your vote on an unexplained theory. This is despite your claim in 988 that you "don't vote on theories."

In 1604 you move your vote to ETL, and you explain the vote in 1614, saying (emphasis added):

All she's done is lurk and hop onto wagons.

I like my vote. Pushing a vote on a claimed Mason.
Not waiting for it to be verified.

You want to call that town I'll look at you like:

The scum motivation of your play yesterday is obvious:

You liked the ocean wagon.

Ocean claimed mason. You couldn't stay on a PR wagon before lylo. You didn't want to vote ETL because the ETL/Ocean/Persivul fight was beneficial to scum. So, you changed your vote to Kop, but needed an explanation. You say you have an unstated theory as your explanation, despite your previous claim that you don't vote on theory.

When the Kop wagon doesn't take off, you settle for ETL and move your vote to her. You need a reason, and you say

"Pushing a vote on a claimed Mason."

But, you want to push Ocean yourself tomorrow when it's lylo, so you set that up by saying

"Not waiting for it to be verified."

But you know darn well that the only verification a mason can get is a claim from their partner, which has now been given. There's nothing else a mason can do to verify their claim.

You said you don't vote on theories, then you voted on a theory. You lynched ETL for pushing an unverified mason claim, now you're pushing a verified mason claim.

VOTE: Marge

[Persivul]

2 players attacked ocean and finally even after the claim

fire is killed over the "claimed Mason"

What are you talking about?

Firebringer apparently accepted the mason claim, as in 1590 he unvoted ocean due to the claim.

In his last post 1610, he was promoting Kop for a lynch, not me or Ocean.

If we were scum, we would have had no motivation to kill fire.

You're just making shit up now in desperation.

[Persivul]

How balsy is it for scum to claim PR's here?

Oh and just FTR persivul was in this game where ika fake claimed mason
And there was talk about jingle going along with it.

ika fakeclaimed mason in that game and he was lynched...so you're charging me with emulating an

unsuccessful

strategy I saw in another game.

[Persivul]

This post isn't intended to be mean, just accurate.

This may have been the worst display of town play I have ever seen. I'll just hit the big points and let ETL yell at you all for the rest.

Like ETL has any standing to yell at anyone. Let me address ETL first:

1. It's...just...a...game. Relax and have some fun. I let it get to me and took a few months off, and I've learned my lesson. You apparently haven't.

2. In this game, ETL was excellent at identifying scum. She was horrible at getting them lynched.

Scumhunting requires both.

When someone spots a 10-point buck but misses the shot...that's not good hunting. When the deer turns on him and kills him, that's even worse.

3. I read Rob's comments on your self hammer and think he's blinded by friendship. That was ridiculous, but I was pretty sure you'd do it. IMO that wasn't strategic, it was emotional, and was the worst play by any town in the entire game. (Titus' outing a possible cop crumb was probably second worst - doubt I could have lynched her without that move).

1) When a mason claims, he immediately claims his partner or he dies, period. If it's a true claim, he'll die overnight and you'll lose the benefit of a conftown in the next day. If it's a false claim, making him claim will give you a second scum if you ever lynch him. There is no benefit to a town mason not to claim their partner after they claim, since it just introduces insane WIFOM in later days where scum can counter-claim the mason partner in LyLo if the first one is dead.

2) Masons are not confirmed until one of them dies, ever. The benefit of masons is being able to bounce ideas off conftown within the mason group as well as being able to confirm a townie via your flip. There are no other benefits to masons. Equating a mason claim with conftown is as bad as equating a cop claim with conftown before you get any usable results. It's awful.

Excellent points which I'll keep in mind. I've never played - or faked - mason before and didn't really think it all the way through. As noted in the PT though, in my mind we did it mostly for fun. IIRC I said that the better strategic play was not to do any fakeclaims, but Ocean really wanted to so this seemed safest, since an even number of letters doesn't change the SK in the setup.

3) Kop was conftown in Day 4 because without his claim, the setup would have a serial killer. No-one realized this, ever. The masons were not conftown in Day 4 because with or without their claims, there would not be a serial killer. You know there's no serial killer because of the lack of second kill, or at least you can infer that with a very high probability.

I realized it. In your last post you said, "If Persivul goes all-in vs. the doc claim, he's going to get destroyed." Depends on what you mean by all-in. I almost noted that Kop could be an SK who didn't kill either as a gambit (unlikely but possible) or because he had been roleblocked consistently by scum (highly unlikely - that's what I was leading up to when I asked him if he had crumbed the role, which could have put the RB on him). This might have helped Ranger in the end if it went that far. But, I didn't think it was necessary the way Marge was posting.

4) No, you shouldn't no lynch in LyLo. Good lord.

Yeah, I like how you put it in the dead thread. Note that I could have kept my mouth shut about this but pointed it out. Same thing with the Kop claim - I noted it fit the setup and refrained from challenging it. Town didn't play a good game, but I disagree that scum was bad as well. We made mistakes, but also made enough good moves like this to maintain the high ground. We spotted the active town's mistakes (Titus on claiming, ETL and Marge lying in their charges on me) and exploited them with IMO a fair amount of skill.

5) No, you shouldn't claim letters/roles in the early game, period...

Yep. Titus is just plain wrong on this. You don't claim at all on D1 with this setup. It only helps scum. I would have loved a massclaim D1, but had to oppose it as that's what I would have done as town.

6) The scum team was

incredibly

obvious. I'm not just saying this due to modsight. Persivul egged ETL to self-hammer and then said she should be banned for it. Ocean was incredibly opportunistic. Ranger did not scumhunt in a single post, and there were serious relational tells between him and Persivul (major coaching from Persivul, in particular). Persivul scum-read Ranger all game, but kept pushing counter-wagons whenever a wagon was starting on Ranger and

never

placed a vote on Ranger.

This isn't a scum win; it's a town loss

.

Again, I disagree with this characterization. You can play scum your way. I'll play it mine. As town or scum, I often say things in early game that put me in the spotlight, but I'm a good defender. That's my thing. I love it when someone like ETL aggressively pursues me on slim evidence. That style of play usually turns off other less aggressive town, and it often leads to the accuser overplaying his hand, as ETL did when she said I voted Marge while having no interactions with her. Once I showed real posts with me and Marge interacting, ETL's case on me was lost. Mafia is not just an analytical exercise, it's also emotional.

[Persivul]

Congrats to the scum team yadda yadda yadda.

Most of the time, I have good things to say about how both teams played. Unfortunately, this game was an utter embarrassment for both sides.

Meh, I think it went well from our side. Heck, we were confident enough to fakeclaim PRs just for the fun of it.

The mafia won, not because they played well - in fact, they played horrifically - they won because the town

played even worse

. The entire scum team was clearly visible and obvious by mid-D2. I pointed out every, single thing that was wrong with what they were doing, and

I was ignored

.

Key point bolded. If you can't sell a wagon, that's your problem, not town. As noted in my last post, you were an excellent scum spotter in this game, but you were a terrible scum hunter. Hunters kill. Bird watchers spot.

I named each and every single one of the scum team from the jump. I made and posted clear cases to show why I thought so. I continually showed how what they were doing was scummy. There were so may

rookie mistakes

- dual chainsaw defending, opportunistic voting patterns, fake-claiming masons... and the town fucking fell for it.

There was ZERO critical thinking. I had hoped that my flip would help. I had hoped that people would wake up and go.. hey she was town, who was pushing her? FUCKING. NOPE.

I am fucking ASHAMED to have been part of this game, part of this town, to the point of blacklisting half of you.

I'm sure being on your blacklist makes them happy. But again, look in the fucking mirror. You called town stupid for not following you during the game. Do you really think you're going to build wagons like that? Further, you gave me plenty of ammo - the change on your ocean read without explanation and the false charge about me not interacting with Marge were horrible, and made defending and even mislynching you easy. Course, the self hammer helped a lot too. If anyone should feel humiliated after this game, it's you for that self hammer, and for insulting town instead of building consensus.

Kop, I just... I am literally without words as to how fucking... stupid... you have been. No lynch in LYLO? Hammer without even thinking about what's going on? PROTECTING THE FUCKING ONE PERSON I TOLD YOU WAS SCUM BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT? On FF you might be able to get away with #YOLO actions and votes. Not here. On ms.net we like to think about things and what they mean before doing something.

Before doing something like self hammering?

Titus, no one fucking voted you out of fear. No one EVER votes you out of fear. You know who typically dies a lot on D1? VIs. VIs get lynched on D1. Strong players get nightkilled N1. Getting lynched D1 isn't a badge of honor, it's a fucking embarrassment. You really need to check yourself. You did not get Ranger or Persivul, and you handed the PRs to the scumteam on a silver fucking platter. And even in death, after the mod EXPLAINED TO YOU EXACTLY WHY THAT'S A BAD THING, you stood by your faulty logic insisting that you are right. You are totally incapable of introspection, and it's one of the major reasons I despise playing games with you. You are never able to admit that you might be wrong.

Well yeah, you're right about Titus.

That's it. That's all I have to say. I don't have any desire to carry on a discussion with fucking any of you.

What a fucking shitshow of a game. You should all be deeply humiliated.

Pot-kettle-black.

[Persivul]

Two questions for all players, by the way:

1) Any general thoughts on my modding of blitz? Anything that should be done different/better specific to a blitz game?

It was good. I liked your idea in dead thread about giving ranges of start times for phases. Something like "Submit actions within 24 hours, phase will start within 28 hours" would be cool.

2) What were your thoughts on no flavor? Did it detract at all?

Didn't detract at all for me.

[Persivul]

Just red the dead qt.
Etl self voting and saying my play is ban worthy is a joke right?
I was at work when you self hammered and I was scum reading persivul.
The fake claim through me and Kop just voted whomever was wagoned.
But yea, sure apparently no one is good at playing the game but you.

Yep, ETL is really full of herself and I see no reason for it.

[Persivul]

EspeciallyTheLies - People that think being good at this game is solely about having good reads and not about convincing others to join you is taking a very superficial understanding of good play. Despite the fact that several of you had called out much of the scumteam, you helped us lynch Titus. Marge helped us lynch you and Ythan, and Kop helped us lynch Marge.

It's easy to say in hindsight or from modview that the scumteam played "badly" but good scumplay is not being "townread" by the entire town which is near impossible. Good scumplay is about turning town against one-another even if some townies have correctly guessed at your identity.

Worth repeating. I think we played a very good game. You can successfully play scum by never being under suspicion. You can also play scum successfully by being in the spotlight but defending and counterattacking skillfully.

ETL wants to say we played bad but the rest of town played worse because she doesn't want to admit that we outplayed her, which we clearly did.

[Persivul]

Scum played well here.

Thanks! Nice to hear some saying we're not a bunch of idiots.

Oh and another notch. Mislynching Titus D1 outs the scumteam. Y'all just managed not to get lynched this time.

Nah, it was plausible once you outed the possible cop crumb. Sorry, but that was a big mistake. It makes no sense for town (including vig) or scum to do it, but it could make sense for SK. You handed that one up on a platter.

[Persivul]

As a side note, I'm taking pre-in's for my next Blitz game, which will be Pick Your Power X/Y. It's a neat 14p semi-open; take a look at the setup on the wiki.

/pre-in

Maybe consider 3-day days...

[Persivul]

I

really

think I do if I'm talking about this Marge iso.

I think farside got a little flustered when she blew her alt and didn't recover. She had the right reads, but just made isolated observations and posted pictures instead of making strong coherent arguments. I knew she'd turn it up a couple notches once ETL was gone and she did, but Ocean and I hard defended again.

I was pleasantly surprised this morning to see Ranger and Ocean already voting Marge. We hadn't planned that out but I liked the aggression and so went with it.

Where the hell was flubber in the ETL and Marge lynches?

[Persivul]

And how does it hurt scum to be locked in as VT?

We claimed mason for fun. I noted in the pt that claiming VT would give the higher chance of a win.

[Persivul]

For the record I never tried to coach Ranger. That's why the charge didn't stick. It didn't really happen.

[Persivul]

This is 100% coaching. Town doesn't talk this way to someone they don't think is playing like town. You're telling him to move his vote onto the wagon here.

I would have said that to anyone in that position. And in fact, I had pointed out a town with no vote previously in 1426. There's nothing wrong with town wanting wagons to consolidate with deadline approaching.

[Persivul]

W00t! Won the first two Blitz games, one as each alignment!

Very nice!

[Persivul]

Rob, there is literally no point in trying to help someone who is unwilling to learn.

Did you miss the part where I said I had learned from his discussion of mason claims?

[Persivul]

So Persivul. You have a scum read as town. You see them doing something scummy (vote parking on a non-wagon close to deadline). You tell them to be more town rather than make the case that they're acting scummy?

Sure. Their response could be informative. And if I wanted to make a case on them later, I could still use the vote parking. They don't get town cred for moving a vote just because someone pressured them to.

[Persivul]

no, not really

yeah, i know it's a curt, snooty thing to say. i also used to think like this. but... no. sadly, this is not true and you're giving the individual WAY too much power with this attitude.

Bullshit. It's not just the luck of the draw that I could get my pushes lynched and she couldn't. It's ridiculous to put so little weight on that aspect of the game.

If you disagree, do an experiment. Read ETL's ISO and see her berating town's incompetence on multiple occasions. Now do that yourself in your next ten games and see how it goes.

"it's just a game" is a really crappy thing to say. it's similar to glibly saying "calm down" to someone who's mad in that it often produces the opposite effect of what you want and it makes the other person hate you that much more.

Wow, hate? Really? If you think in those terms, you shouldn't be playing the game at all.