stop fakeclaiming as town!: the case for lynch all liars

[Antihero]

so there have been a bunch of threads about fakeclaiming, and i've mostly been in the "moderate" camp that said town should usually tell the truth except a few circumstances.

i'm not anymore. now i think town should just always tell the truth. period.

the idea behind this is simple. when it comes to roleclaiming, scum HAVE to lie. even if they end up claiming vt. they don't actually have a town role pm so they have to make one up. town don't have the same problem. they actually HAVE a town role pm so they don't need to make one up. does that sound overly simplistic? i don't think it is. i think people underestimate the utility of being able to remove yourself from the lynchpool with a good claim OR the power to ferret out fakeclaiming scum. when you lie as town, you nullify those. you add to the confusion that's ALREADY inherent in an UNINFORMED situation. you keep yourself firmly in the lynch pool because you look really sketchy and the rest of the town isn't going to be able to parse your exact motivation. but most destructively, you contribute to creating a site meta where it's OK for town to fakeclaim. and that's just... awful.

now, i thought of a few counterarguments that people will undoubtedly pull out:

"i fakeclaim all the time. then whoever calls me on fakeclaiming must be scum so i vote them."

yeah, that's wonderful.

please stay away from me.

"but this one time i fakeclaimed as town on this super dooper cool awesome gambit. i totally rocked the game and won after i got finished wrestling a bear and sticking a sparkler up my ass at the same time."

ok... first off, i really don't believe you OR i don't care enough to actually read the troll game you're going to link me to and tell you why you either lucked out or didn't really help town win.
second, i don't give two shits about whatever isolated incident you want to brag about. i've been here a while and here's how i've seen fakeclaiming go: crap, stinky crap stew, cauldron full of boiling feces

you know what the common thread of all those are? they're well intentioned gambits trying to do something heroic and they did a LOT of damage. to town.

"but i have to claim X role in order to draw the nightkill or avoid the nightkill..."

let me stop you right there.

your second guessing who scum are going to nk is no way to do things, because ultimately it's impossible to reliably "draw" or "avoid" the nightkill. that's because the scum kill is based on a confluence of SO many factors... pr's, reads, leadership, hell sometimes i see scum kill people they just flat out don't like.

just do your best while you're still alive and afterwards you can hold your head up high knowing you did your best.

"but...but...but i HAVE to fakeclaim because otherwise those other idiots are going to lose the game..."

...and we arrive at what i think is the true center of why town fakeclaim. there's always at least a little bit of an component of narcissism in fakeclaiming town. the underlying philosophy is: you can't tell the rest of the town the truth because those other morons who are beneath you can't be trusted with the truth and you're their only true savior.

and my answer is: get over yourself.

mafia is a team game. as either alignment, you HAVE to rely on your teammates. this is true ESPECIALLY as town. you're not the lone badass that's going to singlehandedly win the game. that doesn't even exist. 99.999% of town wins are through TEAM effort and there's nothing that disrupts that more than misinformation. scum already supply enough of that, you don't need to help them.

tl:dr
don't fakeclaiming as town.

for realz.

[Antihero]

i....

would strongly consider lynching a macho townie claim.

[Antihero]

any scum dumb enough to kill you for claiming "macho townie" should be just as easily caught just by straight up, old fashioned scumhunting. what's MORE likely going to make scum kill you is removing yourself from the lynch pool or having good reads.

which... happens when you just play mafia instead of worrying about what the most creative way to be a jackass is.

[Antihero]

Anti what about mod lying about a mass poisoner? Should mods do that and make fake claims?

when the game is over and everyone's stopped playing, yes.

[Antihero]

any scum dumb enough to kill you for claiming "macho townie" should be just as easily caught just by straight up, old fashioned scumhunting. what's MORE likely going to make scum kill you is removing yourself from the lynch pool or having good reads.

which... happens when you just play mafia instead of worrying about what the most creative way to be a jackass is.

I mean obviously the best way to claim macho townie is "accidentally" slipping that you're a macho.

alright... so what do you do after a town rolecop investigates you and tells everyone you're not really macho?

OR a scum rolecop investigates you and figures out you're full of shit?

OR [a million other scenarios where claiming macho would flop]

MEANWHILE anyone who doesn't have their head up their ass thinks your claim is bullshit-y (because it is) and kind of wants to lynch you for it.

[Antihero]

Similar example is tracker in newbie setup claiming cop after lynching scum Day 1 and tracking doctor Night 1. Nothing can possibly go wrong with that.

ok, so i get the idea. you trick the scum into thinking there's no doc when really there is one.

so... when you get asked for results, you out your inno on the doc?

[Antihero]

op is not a case for lynch all liars

took some liberties w/ the title. it's more of a "i want lynch all liars to be a thing" than anything.

your snark was appreciated though. it really added to the discussion.

[Antihero]

even the one you linked, zach...

scum took advantage of it and used it to coast to a win.

[Antihero]

ahaha ok you asked for it

yep, ya' really got me. congrats. guess that's what i get for running off at the mouth.

my point isn't so much fakeclaiming COULDN'T be done in theory.

it's that it can't be done in practice. and if you do it, you're kind of a dick.

tbh i think it is our responsibility as a community to hold interventions for people who think fake-claiming is a good idea - we need to help them before their life spirals out of control and they get liver disease or something - only bad things can come of fake-claiming

yeah, i know it's just the awful to have things blown out of proportion.

fakeclaiming as town is about the equivalent of pulling down your pants and taking a dump on the board while playing a board game.

it might not be the worst thing anyone can do but it's still inconsiderate and annoying.

[Antihero]

What about underclaiming your results?
Like saying youre a weaker version of your role to try and get maximal value out of it?

you run the risk of drawing a cc if the "weaker" role is actually in the game. the payoff isn't that great anyway. if you're an investigative that has incriminating evidence on scum, there's really nothing you can do to make yourself a nontarget.

that said, purposefully leaving ambiguity isn't the same thing as fakeclaiming.

[Antihero]

lying as town is very common is my f2f group.

DIFFERENT

f2f games last for minutes and there's no investment in the game as there is on ms. the mods don't take a lot of time making a setup (except reck) and the game itself probably only lasts about 10 to 15 minutes, if even that.

in marathon games and f2f games, gambit away.

[Antihero]

I think underclaiming is almost always fine until a massclaim happens, and overclaiming (saying you have more shots/ are slightly more powerful than you actually are) can be okay in some situations too.

The main thing is, if you fakeclaim something that has more than a ridiculously miniscule reason for why scum might do it, you should expect to be lynched for it, and you'll deserve it. And being too dumb to see that you fakeclaiming almost any role can be seen by other players as scum trying to out town power roles or survive longer is nobody's fault but your own. If you keep it close to the truth, AND can coherently explain exactly why you why you did it before people start becoming suspicious of you (because there's no reason for scum to not try to change their claim if it looks like the current one is going down it flames), then it might turn out okay.

Otherwise, fakeclaiming is probably not going to work out like you hope because other people a)don't have the absolute knowledge of your alignment that you do and much more importantly b)

are not you

and won't share and understand your thought processes and internal logic.

if you do fakeclaim and get lynched for it, this message is pre-emptively for you: nothing you did was obviously town or obviously makes sense or obvious anything, learn that people are different, your own knowledge and experience bias you beyond measure, and shut the fuck up.

gamma just said what i meant a lot better than i did and with less space

i very much endorse this post

[Antihero]

Antihero, what do you think of town Power Roles fakeclaiming VT?

there's no reason to. if you have to backtrack and have to change your claim later, there's a good chance you won't be believed and rightfully so for reasons gamma already pointed out

Just an fyi, you based your case studies off of VIs, Anti. :/

yes. that's because VIs are the only ones that do it.