Self-Meta for Null Tells

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
Rob14
Rob14
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Rob14
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6219
Joined: October 5, 2012

Self-Meta for Null Tells

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:25 pm

Post by Rob14 »

This argument came up in the recently finished Micro 553.

Conventional wisdom says that self-meta is useless because you can manipulate your meta when you're aware of it. This conventional wisdom is usually sound, but I believe there is one instance in which self-meta is very useful and informative. When I've used self-meta this way in the past, I've been met with mixed reactions.

The case in which I believe self-meta is useful is to point out your own null tells. Basically, if you know you do some action "X" as both town and scum, then it should be appropriate for you to point this out.

Example:

Player A is calling Player B scum for doing action X.
Player B cites other games where he has done action X as town.
Player B claims this is proof that action X is
not a scum tell
(i.e. a null tell).


Should Player B be believed? I'd say yes, provided they can give proof that they've done action X as town. This follows basic rules of logic, in my opinion.

Player A is claiming the implication that "X --> Player B is scum".
Player B finds an example of "X and Player B is town".
Then the implication does not hold, because "X and Player B is town" is logically equivalent to the negation of "X --> Player B is scum".

Why should this be considered different than normal self-meta? Because it is not subject to manipulation. Saying that you've done X as town and therefore you're town in this game is clearly open to manipulation. On the other hand, it's simply stating a fact to provide proof that you've done X as town. It's verifiable by other players in the game. It doesn't prove you're town, but it does disprove that you're scum
because of X
, because you've shown a game (or, better, a set of games) where applying the tell that "X --> Player B is scum" would yield an incorrect result.

I would also claim that it's
optimal
to point out when someone is using one of your null tells to paint you as scum. You know what you've done in past games best. You can't trust others to prove you've done X as town if they haven't read the game where it happened. You're in a unique situation to apply self-meta, so long as you do so carefully and do not attempt to use it to show you're town.

I'm interested in thoughts on this. From a logical perspective, I think this is airtight, but most people see self-meta and immediately back away in fear. I think this is one more example of conventional scum-hunting tactics and tells becoming out of date and leading people awry. Applying self-meta to disprove a scum tell should absolutely be a tool in a townie's toolbox, as well as a goon's. It's all in how you apply the self-meta.

Just to be very clear, I agree that self-meta to prove you're town is awful and subject to manipulation. I'm only talking about self-meta to prove something is a null tell for you.
User avatar
Rob14
Rob14
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Rob14
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6219
Joined: October 5, 2012

Post Post #3 (isolation #1) » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:00 pm

Post by Rob14 »

I would say so, Muffin, but you can read Micro 553 to see at least two players be very strictly against considering this at all. I hold both of those players in high regard, as do many others, so apparently this isn't as much common sense as I thought.
User avatar
Rob14
Rob14
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Rob14
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6219
Joined: October 5, 2012

Post Post #5 (isolation #2) » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:45 pm

Post by Rob14 »

One of them was against meta as a whole, which I consider even worse.
User avatar
Rob14
Rob14
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Rob14
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6219
Joined: October 5, 2012

Post Post #18 (isolation #3) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:01 am

Post by Rob14 »

I'd argue that bringing up meta yourself is fine for null tells. That's kind of the point, and I did do that in the game I was referring to.
User avatar
Rob14
Rob14
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Rob14
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6219
Joined: October 5, 2012

Post Post #22 (isolation #4) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:19 pm

Post by Rob14 »

In post 19, AlwaysInnocent wrote:Rob, you were scum in that game. Perhaps people had a good reason to bring that up against you. You felt that you didn't give anything away, because you felt that you didn't diverge from your town game. I just don't believe that.

This is why you are not "allowed" to talk about your self-meta. You were scum and were using it to stop people from suspecting you. However, they were right to suspect you.


And I can quote you five town games where I brought up self-meta to point out null tells as well. That means it's a null tell.

(lol)
User avatar
Rob14
Rob14
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Rob14
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6219
Joined: October 5, 2012

Post Post #24 (isolation #5) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:23 pm

Post by Rob14 »

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?k ... mit=Search

Most recently, I brought it up as town in Mini 1723.
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”