Blitz 14: Murder on Madness Mountain GAME OVER!

[davesaz]

(And, seriously. Why do people keep on thinking I as scum would kill my top townread?)

This is the worst kind of logic. If you're scum blending in with town, and town is townreading your townread, it's actually better to NK your townread.

[davesaz]

I think you killed Ricastle at night to try to dodge the argument about lining up lynches.

I knew Ricastle was a deputy. (That's why Ricastle became my top-townread.) You know why I wouldn't kill them.

This bugs me -- you knew what?

[Rob14]

You knew Ricastle was a PR and that's your reason why you wouldn't have killed them???

Can we lynch Ranger today and Jackal tomorrow? Because...

[Ranger]

If you're scum blending in with town, and town is townreading your townread, it's actually better to NK your townread.

True.
So tell me...who was townreading Ricastle other than me?

...My point exactly.

This bugs me -- you knew what?

I knew Ricastle was a Deputy, yes. As in, a backup cop.
The reasons for this are obvious, though I'm not pointing them out right now for good reason.

You knew Ricastle was a PR and that's your reason why you wouldn't have killed them?

Everyone's a PR, Rob.
I knew Ricastle was a

harmless

PR.
Deputies are no threat until a cop dies.
And I knew Ricastle was a Deputy.

[Rob14]

No, we don't know everyone's a PR. In fact, so far, no-one's been an actual PR. And you very well know that because you've been indicating that.

At this point, I think it's important to just say what I believe about the setup so people can understand the interaction between Ranger and myself. Before I say this, if you have info that contradicts it, DO NOT OUT YOURSELF. I'll explain why at the end of the post.

So far, we know that we have a miller, ascetic, and deputy. Those are all roles that, in the absence of

other

types of roles like cop, doc, etc., do nothing. My theory is that this setup has 7 vts and 2 goons functionally. None of the roles actually interact. I ran that as a "bastard" game once before, where I advertised the game heavily as bastard, but the only bastard thing about it was that it wasn't really bastard.

DO NOT OUT IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE A ROLE THAT COULD INTERACT. Keep in mind that scum could have modifiers (such as Ninja) that prevent your role from interacting with anything in a functional sense. Do not out if you're a PR.

This is why I think it's plausible for Ranger to kill a Deputy. It could very well be that there's no cop in the setup, and killing a deputy is as good as killing anyone else. Ranger was the first to bring up this theory through her call to massclaim. I assume that's what she meant.

[absinthe]

And I knew Ricastle was a Deputy.

How?

[davesaz]

In retrospect it's possible scum knew too.

[Rob14]

If scum didn't pick up that Ricastle was a deputy by his crumbs, they sure had an opportunity to when Ranger quoted the crumbs and said something to the effect of "I get it now. You're town."

Now that I'm looking at it, that's a much more plausible reason for the kill than Ranger being worried about my case.

[Soren]

Firebringer is a great lynch.

[Ythan]

Vote Count

Jackal711: Ranger, absinthe, Rob13 (3)
Ranger: Firebringer (1)
Firebringer: Soren (1)

Not voting: davesaz, Jackal711

With 7 alive it's 4 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2015-12-25 19:40:00).

[absinthe]

Soren what are your reads?

[Ythan]

Firebringer has been prodded and Jackal711 has been prodded again.

[davesaz]

Jackea is L-1.

Hammer intent.

[Firebringer]

Hey Ythan, you love poking me don't you?

Also I would much rather lynch Ranger, why aren't we doing that instead of Jackal?

Come on guys, like Soren would say "[Ranger] is a good lynch"

[absinthe]

I like my vote where it's at.

Soren's singlemindedness interests me.

[Ranger]

No, we don't know everyone's a PR.

Yes we do. If you were actually sincere in us thinking the same thing, you know as well as I do everyone's a PR.

PR does not mean "has an action". PR means "is not a vanilla townie". And by that definition, my statement is accurate.

There is more to it than that, of course, as you

should

know. But it does not invalidate my statement.

So far, we know that we have a miller, ascetic, and deputy. Those are all roles that, in the absence of other types of roles like cop, doc, etc., do nothing. My theory is that this setup has 7 vts and 2 goons functionally. None of the roles actually interact. I ran that as a "bastard" game once before, where I advertised the game heavily as bastard, but the only bastard thing about it was that it wasn't really bastard.

As indicated by the title: Madness (as in,

role madness

) Mountain (as in,

Mountainous

, no PRs).

I wasn't sure of this D1. I had a suspicion, about 60%, about it, but the other was that my role was real and so too was Ricastle's and so too was absinthe's.

How?

I stated on D1 that I had reason to believe your claim. This made Ricastle, mistakenly, believe I was a cop. (My role led me to believe either a role madness mountainous game as laid out above, making your claim likely to come from town, or that there would be a cop in the game.) Ricastle then 'crumbed replacing me. The connection was easy to make from there, and when I realized Ricastle was 'crumbing town deputy, the method for which Ricastle was doing so was extremely sincere, leading me to believe that was Ricastle's role, exactly the same reason I townread you, only even stronger.

[Ranger]

35: I state my trust in absinthe's claim.
37: Ricastle indicates I'm town.
89: Ricastle states desire to one day be like me.
Me not understanding the statement (because I thought Ricastle was talking about play when we've never had a finished game), I post 92. (This is also, incidentally, the alleged lining-up-mislynches post.)
Ricastle answers in 96, and I realize what Ricastle is thinking, posting 112.

That's how I knew Ricastle was a deputy.
I knew Ricastle wasn't a threat.
So why would I kill Ricastle? It'd accomplish nothing but eliminating an ally of mine.

[Rob14]

Because keeping him alive and perpetuating the lining up lynches narrative was dangerous to your continued existence. A scum will always kill someone town-reading them if leaving that person alive risks a scum lynch. You're deliberately ignoring my entire explanation of why you would have motivation as scum to kill Ricastle in favor of attacking ... what, exactly? You're not addressing any argument. You're just saying "He was town-reading me, so I wouldn't kill him." That's WIFOM bullshit and you know it. You've never addressed my specific rationale why you would kill Ricastle except to say you weren't lining up lynches, even though it's clear that you were.

VOTE: Ranger

Not letting this scum get away. Both Jackal and Soren get the rope next for being absolutely useless, if not outright scummy.

[Ranger]

You're deliberately ignoring my entire explanation of why you would have motivation as scum to kill Ricastle in favor of attacking ... what, exactly? You're not addressing any argument.

So tell me what exactly your argument is, then?

'Cause I'm fairly certain I've addressed everything.

You've never addressed my specific rationale why you would kill Ricastle except to say you weren't lining up lynches, even though it's clear that you were.

Rob.
If you're actually town.
And you read 92 as lining up mislynches.
When there is NO POSSIBLE WAY THAT POST CAN BE SUCH.
And I explained this in both 222

and

241.

Go back to Road to Rome.

[Ranger]

Not letting this scum get away. Both Jackal and Soren get the rope next for being absolutely useless, if not outright scummy.

Who's the one lining up mislynches

now

, hmm, Rob?

You ignored Jackal's lining up mislynches.
You're ignoring how you're lining up mislynches right now.
To focus on me when my post was very clearly NOT lining up mislynches and I showed, demonstrated why, it was not, both by virtue of pointing out my wording, and by virtue of explaining my mind-set when posting.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Rob13.
I think it's a Rob-Jackal scumteam.

This would also explain the Ricastle kill, since that was where Ricastle was focusing attention it seemed like, near the end of the day.

[Rob14]

There's a difference between having multiple scumreads and lining up lynches.

Having multiple scumreads and wanting to lynch them is not lining up lynches.

Lining up lynches is when you use bullshit relations back-to-back to jump from town to town fluidly. It's when you say "If X is town, then Y is scum" while voting X. This is extremely scummy because you're voting a player while positing who you should lynch next once the player you're voting flips town. If you're town hunting scum, then you would think the player you're voting and trying to lynch is scum. You wouldn't be focusing on your next lynch conditional on X being TOWN. If you're scum, you know X will flip town, and you need to start laying foundation for your next lynch.

Again, simply having multiple scumreads is not scummy, and of course my reads would adjust to new information.

Your 241 gives your supposed rationale for suspecting Ricastle, but doesn't explain why you were considering him scummy conditional on Fire being town (which is what defines lining up lynches!) or why you even had the thought process of "If Fire is town ..." in the first place. Your 222 merely restates your post. Your exact words were:

Ranger, how come I'm so low on your list?

Because I'm not convinced you're town, particularly if Firebringer were to flip town.

At the same time, you're

voting for Fire

, but considering that he's likely town in your read for Ricastle. Like ... what? It doesn't make any sense from a town mindset.

I'm hardly ignoring Jackal. He's my vote in the next day unless something radically changes, but I feel like if I don't persuade town to vote you now, the people scum-reading you will mysteriously die and the wagon will never be a thing. If you're getting lynched, today is the day to do it. I'm happy to draw attention to myself in doing so, which I'm well-aware that I'm doing, because it forces people to look at my case. I do not feel anyone has done this so far. I don't believe a single person other than you and I has commented on my case re: your lining up lynches.

[Rob14]

And thanks for trying to discredit me by telling me I belong in the newbie queue, but I have a 100% winrate as town since returning to the site this year, and I have a >70% winrate as town overall. That is not coincidence.

[Firebringer]

VOTE: Rob13.
I think it's a Rob-Jackal scumteam.

This would also explain the Ricastle kill, since that was where Ricastle was focusing attention it seemed like, near the end of the day.

Isn't it hypocritical to say Jackal is lining up lynches when you did so.
Also why Rob and Jackal?

What has Rob done that is scummy? All his reasoning seems to progress in a actual town like fashion. It seems legit.

Yours is questionable.

[Ranger]

Lining up lynches is when you use bullshit relations back-to-back to jump from town to town fluidly. It's when you say "If X is town, then Y is scum" while voting X.

Yes...which I very specifically was not doing.

Again. I said I was not convinced Ricastle was town. This is not stating suspicion. I was not convinced Ricastle would be town particularly if Firebringer were town. This is still not stating strong suspicion. I was scumreading Firebringer at the time, but I was perfectly aware my read could have been wrong. (My read was still scum, but

weakening

.) If it was, then assumptions I had made off of Firebringer being scum would therefore need to be revisited...among them, Ricastle. This is not, in any way, suspicion specific to Ricastle. This is, explicitly, reevaluating information off of new circumstances. Ricastle was the subject because Ricastle is who I was talking to. However, my statement would have been true regardless of the subject: If Firebringer flipped town when I had scumread Firebringer, then all my reads based off of interactions with Firebringer (e.g. players who voted Firebringer being more likely to be town) would need reassessment.

I was talking to Ricastle, because Ricastle wanted to know why I wasn't sure Ricastle was town. So I explained. Then, immediately following this, Ricastle gave a very strong hint as to being a deputy, and it was

based off of this information

, NOT, as you either arrogantly or deliberately accuse me of, your accusation of me lining up mislynches, that Ricastle became town. This is because I was interacting with Ricastle to get a better read, answering questions and being engaged in a conversation that productively gave me my strongest townread.

Your 241 gives your supposed rationale for suspecting Ricastle, but doesn't explain why you were considering him scummy conditional on Fire being town (which is what defines lining up lynches!) or why you even had the thought process of "If Fire is town ..." in the first place.

Because I WASN'T. As I said...I wasn't convinced Ricastle was town. How. In ANY universe. "I'm not convinced you're town" translates to "I think you're scum", you'll have to tell me. Ricastle wanted to know why he was so low. I told him because I wasn't sure he was town. I also explained how, as I said above, Firebringer was a scumread of mine which I could be wrong on.

Fundamentally, it is essential. Absolutely, 100%, essential. For a town player to recognize the possibility they are wrong about their read, and therefore, their assumptions. At the time, I was assuming Firebringer was scum. However, in recognizing the possibility I was wrong, I dealt with what would happen if that were true: if Firebringer were town, then my assumptions based on the contrary would need re-visiting, among them Ricastle, because Ricastle was a strong Firebringer pusher. Firebringer being town would mean Ricastle wouldn't be town for that; Firebringer being scum would mean Ricastle would

probably

be town, but as I said in the

second half of the quote you leave out

, I'd need to analyze even

that

to be sure.

So my statement was, simply: "Because I'm not sure of you, regardless of Firebringer's alignment". While voting Firebringer. That's it. No plot to line up mislynches. No desire to lynch Firebringer then Ricastle. Simply me

explaining my stance

, at the request of Ricastle.

At the same time, you're voting for Fire, but considering that he's likely town in your read for Ricastle. Like ... what?

"if".
"if" Firebringer is town.
You're either blatantly ignorant of what "if" means or a total liar.
Because I never said Firebringer was likely town.
I simply say IF he was town.

I feel like if I don't persuade town to vote you now, the people scum-reading you will mysteriously die and the wagon will never be a thing.

Huh, funny, guess what

didn't

happen last night? Guess who WASN'T killed last night? Guess who WAS killed last night?

Oh yeah!

Someone townreading me, that was scumreading both you and Jackal.

And thanks for trying to discredit me by telling me I belong in the newbie queue, but I have a 100% winrate as town since returning to the site this year, and I have a >70% winrate as town overall. That is not coincidence.

Good to hear.
Let's see what you have to say after you lynched CN (town), you pushed Ricastle as scum (town), and you lynch me (also town).

By your own words, it's proof you're scum.