Blitz 14: Murder on Madness Mountain GAME OVER!

[Rob14]

VOTE: Firebringer

[Rob14]

Thats a cool vote Rob.

It's also a serious vote.

[Rob14]

Declaring L-2 in a 9p game? What?

[Rob14]

No vote, but more importantly, your post was awkward as fuck and came off as uncomfortably trying to sound town.

[Rob14]

Not saying you're awkward in general, just that your post sounded like you were uncomfortably trying to seem town.

[Rob14]

^ Yo Soren, you scum bro?

[Rob14]

Pretty m much my thoughts, but I'm also trying to keep in mind that people in blitz get this irrational GO GO GO mentality.

[Rob14]

That was re: Davesaz' last post on Soren.

[Rob14]

Some people express Soren concerns and immediately you're trying to start a counter-wagon there to save yourself? There's no way you aren't scum.

[Rob14]

Fire, explain to me then why you're voting Soren. I'm open to a conversation, but on its face, your vote looks very bad.

[Rob14]

I want him to be town

That statement strikes me as odd; care to explain?

[Rob14]

We have two days and we're on page 3. Everyone but me, Fire, CN, and Ricastle have 5 posts or less. Can we step it up?

[Rob14]

^ Hey, my first solid town read!

[Rob14]

Fire, explain to me then why you're voting Soren. I'm open to a conversation, but on its face, your vote looks very bad.

Just to see how you would react.

No but honestly I do agree with what you said earlier, his pressuring to get me lynched is pretty scummy man.

>Says to see how you would react
>Makes no comment about your reaction

That read as an obvious joke to me? He followed it up by "No, but honestly....", which generally indicates a joke.

[Rob14]

That statement strikes me as odd; care to explain?

It means exactly that: given your posting so far, I want you to be town. You're posting in a very logical way and appear to be giving off more thoughts than any other player. But while that's good posting, nothing you've done has been undeniably

town

posting, if your scumgame is at all reasonably skilled. Make sense?

Yeah. To clarify my question, I was trying to get at whether this was game-related or the fact that you've been in some of the games I modded and don't want to go against me or something.

[Rob14]

Because I'm not convinced you're town, particularly if Firebringer were to flip town.

This sounds like lining up lynches, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth regarding this wagon. At the very least, I'm not ready for this day to end.

UNVOTE:

[Rob14]

Fire seems conventionally scum, but I'm leaving the option open that Fire is just a VI. I'm not 100% sure if scum or VI at the moment. Ranger saying if Fire is town, then X is town leaves a bad taste because it seems like he's planting the seeds to jump from townie to townie as scum. If Ranger is scum, then we know Fire and Ricastle are town.

If we're going the way of an information lynch, Ranger is better than Fire. Fire gives next to no information.

[Rob14]

You don't line up lynches when you are bussing. It's not a thing that happens.

[Rob14]

Like, lining up from scum --> town would be bussing, but if you say "If X is town, then Y is scum" then push for a lynch of X, who you know is town. It's clear what's going on there.

[Rob14]

Fire is just a VI.

I like being called scum more than VI.

Thank you very much.

From what I've seen in other games, you do play town oddly. A spade is a spade.

[Rob14]

VOTE: Ranger

I've re-read a bit, and that lining up lynches thing really strikes me as unlikely to come from town. This lynch gives us a lot of information if Ranger flips scum, with both Fire and Ricastle becoming almost conf-town.

Re-reading Fire brings me closer to believing he's playing to his derpy meta than actually scum, although what scum!Fire would look like is something I don't really have an answer to. Does anyone have more complete meta info on Fire?

[Rob14]

Someone flipping town never gives much information because town doesn't know anything other townies don't know already (other than their own role I suppose). I don't see much of an alternative. If I'm reading Fires meta correctly, that's not a good lynch. You're the only other person who's done something scummy imo. Maybe there would be better lynch possibilities if we had better participation, but this is the best I've got right now. My request for more activity has gone unheeded.

[Rob14]

Re: Ricastle. I reply to things concerning me when a question is asked or someone ascribes a motive to my actions that is not correct. In those cases, I set the record straight. I do this routinely in all my games. You've not said anything about your vote on me, so I have nothing to correct. Everyone is entitled to their reads. If you care to explain yours on me, I'd be happy to respond, but that is not and will never be a priority of mine.

Re: Ranger. That's a fair point. What is the alternative you propose? Lynch blindly in the lurkers? Unfortunately, lynching someone who is actively evem somewhat scummy yields more information than lynching a lurker. It's not fair, and it's one of the weaknesses of the forum version of Mafia imo, but it is what it is. If you have a better solution, I'm all ears.

[Rob14]

UNVOTE:

At the very least, I'm willing to have the discussion.

[Rob14]

Fair. I think really that everyone should have their metaphorical vote on you simply because you act not in a way that seems natural, but a way that is likeable and agreeable, yet is also at the same level of play which can be well faked. Resultantly I do not feel safe putting you above null at best.

I think Jackal warrants looking at beyond lurking because he's been pushing the Fire wagon without ever being on it. CN has also only disappeared since he got called out last page.

Since you seem to be expecting a response, I'll oblige, but I don't have much to say. You make a fair point. I wish I could be doing more, but with half the player list actively lurking, There's not much to go on. It's quite possible, as you said, that we've not caught any scum and they're hiding in the lurkers.

Starting to question whether I should pick a lurker to lynch via coin flip.

[Rob14]

CN is an awful wagon. Ranger is best, Fire is better.

[Rob14]

Ranger has no votes, and I doubt we'll get the people to make that quickwagon a thing, so I'm placing Fire on L-1.

VOTE: Fire

Fire, claim.

8 hours left and I'm going to bed soon.

[Rob14]

I've not got any unique meta or tells to offer on you. You play pretty much to site meta.

I don't think it's viable to create a wagon from scratch 7 hours out. We'd have no time to build the wagon, get a claim, and consider it.

[Rob14]

Fire needs a prod (as does our mod, who's over the limit on times between VCs).

I don't believe I can do justice to analyzing Jackal before I go to bed in around 10 minutes, so my vote is where it is for the moment. I'd much rather we lynch you, frankly, but I don't believe a vote there is productive for the same reason a vote on Jackal wouldn't be. There's no existing support there and we have no time. We've managed 6 pages in >3.5 days. What makes you think people are going to pop out of the woodwork after 10PM EST to complete a quicklynch? I have no trust in that, and Jackal's null for me right now anyway.

Ricastle deserves serious scum points in Day 2 for swapping off a wagon that's near lynch slightly before deadline and going to sleep immediately. Serious attempt to derail.

[Rob14]

Oh, Ranger, you swapped off Fire too. Why are you chasing a no lynch?

[Rob14]

Fire, will you start a Ranger wagon with me? I don't have enough time to investigate Soren's meta, but if we can make a Ranger lynch happen, I'm all for it.

VOTE: Ranger

I'll try to stay up for a couple hours, but this needs to happen fast. I've been awake for a long time and will eventually crash.

[Rob14]

Unofficial VC:

Chaotic Neutrality: absinthe, Jackal711, Ricastle (3)
Ranger: Rob13, Firebringer (2)
Firebringer: Soren, davesaz (2)
Rob13: Ricastle, CN (2)
Jackal711: Ranger (1)

[Rob14]

I refuse to go with CN. I think scum's on that wagon. It popped up incredibly quickly and close to deadline, and there's no clear reason why. Especially Jackal's vote was not good, but I need more time to examine the wagon.

We should be lynching in {Ranger, Fire, myself}. I heavily encourage everyone to swap votes onto one of those prior to deadline, or we're getting a no lynch.

[Rob14]

1) He's at L-2.
2) He's probably town.

To be honest, I'll lynch there if I'm forced to, but I don't want to. It's a horrible lynch.

@Fire: I'm at the same number of votes as the others I listed; it'd be hypocritical not to list myself. Obviously I won't vote myself and don't encourage others to, but anything for a lynch, I suppose.

[Rob14]

What makes you think people are going to pop out of the woodwork after 10PM EST to complete a quicklynch?

Experience.

It's now midnight with 4 hours left. Not many people are likely to show up, and definitely not four people to lynch Jackal. What now?

[Rob14]

I'm going to move to CN in two hours in the absence of any other voting progress to consolidate votes. It's better than a no lynch, but it's still blah. If you're around, take a look at Ranger, and then vote there. kthx

[Rob14]

We have two hours. If you'll be around at 3:30am EST, I'd recommend putting your vote on Ranger now if you prefer him and we can change later if needed. I'm going to be up until deadline most likely to make sure we don't no lynch. I'd

really

prefer Ranger over CN, though. CN's wagon strikes me as awful.

Who do you actually prefer - Ranger or CN?

[Rob14]

Possibly. I plan to play a game of madden and then check back. If it's still not hammered, I'll switch then. Probably 30-40 mins.

[Rob14]

With 28 minutes, there's really no choice but to vote CN or no lynch. At least we might get some info out of a CN lynch.

VOTE: CN

[Rob14]

I honestly have no idea how scum will shoot because no-one seems to have any handle on this game so far, so I'll just say, in case I die for my activity alone: Town, please step it up. This is blitz. I see most blitz games with 20ish pages at the end of Day 1, and certainly more than three a full 2 days in. There's just no hope if activity doesn't start up.

[Rob14]

Can we finally make this a thing?

I honestly think Fire is town. I don't know why, but I do. It's part meta and part gut.

VOTE: Ranger

[Rob14]

I don't analyze for partners pre-flip, since it seriously messes up my reads and thinking if I start looking for associative tells early. I heavily encourage you adopt the practice as well.

[Rob14]

I think I know what the setup is because I ran it once before as a closed bastard game.

But a massclaim is a terrible idea. Knowledge of the setup (if it is what I think it is) would not help us any.

[Rob14]

To be clear, I mean I ran the concept behind the setup before, not this exact setup.

[Rob14]

Fire, Rob: why Ranger over Soren?

Ranger was lining up lynches on two players, one of which we now know is town (CN), and the other of which I think is town (Fire). This is inherently scummy.

Soren is tunneling and a bit of a derp. This is not scummy. If Soren continues to not work on reads of other players, I might be willing to consider their behavior scummy on a future day, but right now this is the low-effort wagon that I think scum wants us on.

[Rob14]

I think I know what the setup is because I ran it once before as a closed bastard game.

But a massclaim is a terrible idea. Knowledge of the setup (if it is what I think it is) would not help us any.

So you know what the setup likely is but are witholding that info because it is hurtful.

Like if you are town you are asking to get night killed.

Have you never heard of "He knows too much!"
I mean, you are basically embodying that.

My information doesn't benefit the town at all if I'm right. It potentially hurts the town if I'm wrong, which is why massclaim is a bad idea.

I would not provide my information at any point in the game, because it would never be beneficial to town to know the setup.

[Rob14]

After I called you on lining up lynches. That hardly gets you town points.

My bastard was not bastard either. That was the point - I lied about it being bastard. I'm almost positive we're thinking the same thing.

If we're wrong, PRs die.
If we're right, the setup could be designed in a way that it's impossible to tell who's scum even if all roles are claimed. There is no benefit.

[Rob14]

VOTE: Jackal

That was pretty terrible.

[Rob14]

After I called you on lining up lynches. That hardly gets you town points.

Hardly gets me town points, sure, but invalidates your point. I never pushed CN, I backed off of Firebringer, that was based off of me reconsidering my reads, and I showed why. Calling me out on lining up mislynches does nothing.

No, it really doesn't invalidate my point.

My mistake, it was Ricastle you lined up, not CN. My apologies.

Ranger, how come I'm so low on your list?

Because I'm not convinced you're town, particularly if Firebringer were to flip town. If Firebringer flips scum, then I'd look to see if I thought your interactions were that of scumbuddies, but until then, you're not sending strong signals which say town.

That post directly says "If X is town, Y is scum". That's textbook lining up lynches on town, and further, I think you killed Ricastle at night to try to dodge the argument about lining up lynches. You didn't want to have to push him or move off of him awkwardly because I had called attention to how scummy all that looked.

Moving off Fire after I noted that you were lining up lynches doesn't invalidate my point. It's you doing damage control. You can't do something AFTER I note a tell and then say "Oh, that means I never did the tell!" There's no takebacksies here. You can't just withdraw your read and walk away.

[Rob14]

Dave is town. I'm predicting a {Ranger, Jackal} scum team where they're desperately cross-bussing because they're both being scumread hard.

[Rob14]

Town tell on who? Jackal or Ranger?

[Rob14]

How does quickly backing down once you're pressured make him seem town?

[Rob14]

You knew Ricastle was a PR and that's your reason why you wouldn't have killed them???

Can we lynch Ranger today and Jackal tomorrow? Because...

[Rob14]

No, we don't know everyone's a PR. In fact, so far, no-one's been an actual PR. And you very well know that because you've been indicating that.

At this point, I think it's important to just say what I believe about the setup so people can understand the interaction between Ranger and myself. Before I say this, if you have info that contradicts it, DO NOT OUT YOURSELF. I'll explain why at the end of the post.

So far, we know that we have a miller, ascetic, and deputy. Those are all roles that, in the absence of

other

types of roles like cop, doc, etc., do nothing. My theory is that this setup has 7 vts and 2 goons functionally. None of the roles actually interact. I ran that as a "bastard" game once before, where I advertised the game heavily as bastard, but the only bastard thing about it was that it wasn't really bastard.

DO NOT OUT IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE A ROLE THAT COULD INTERACT. Keep in mind that scum could have modifiers (such as Ninja) that prevent your role from interacting with anything in a functional sense. Do not out if you're a PR.

This is why I think it's plausible for Ranger to kill a Deputy. It could very well be that there's no cop in the setup, and killing a deputy is as good as killing anyone else. Ranger was the first to bring up this theory through her call to massclaim. I assume that's what she meant.

[Rob14]

If scum didn't pick up that Ricastle was a deputy by his crumbs, they sure had an opportunity to when Ranger quoted the crumbs and said something to the effect of "I get it now. You're town."

Now that I'm looking at it, that's a much more plausible reason for the kill than Ranger being worried about my case.

[Rob14]

Because keeping him alive and perpetuating the lining up lynches narrative was dangerous to your continued existence. A scum will always kill someone town-reading them if leaving that person alive risks a scum lynch. You're deliberately ignoring my entire explanation of why you would have motivation as scum to kill Ricastle in favor of attacking ... what, exactly? You're not addressing any argument. You're just saying "He was town-reading me, so I wouldn't kill him." That's WIFOM bullshit and you know it. You've never addressed my specific rationale why you would kill Ricastle except to say you weren't lining up lynches, even though it's clear that you were.

VOTE: Ranger

Not letting this scum get away. Both Jackal and Soren get the rope next for being absolutely useless, if not outright scummy.

[Rob14]

There's a difference between having multiple scumreads and lining up lynches.

Having multiple scumreads and wanting to lynch them is not lining up lynches.

Lining up lynches is when you use bullshit relations back-to-back to jump from town to town fluidly. It's when you say "If X is town, then Y is scum" while voting X. This is extremely scummy because you're voting a player while positing who you should lynch next once the player you're voting flips town. If you're town hunting scum, then you would think the player you're voting and trying to lynch is scum. You wouldn't be focusing on your next lynch conditional on X being TOWN. If you're scum, you know X will flip town, and you need to start laying foundation for your next lynch.

Again, simply having multiple scumreads is not scummy, and of course my reads would adjust to new information.

Your 241 gives your supposed rationale for suspecting Ricastle, but doesn't explain why you were considering him scummy conditional on Fire being town (which is what defines lining up lynches!) or why you even had the thought process of "If Fire is town ..." in the first place. Your 222 merely restates your post. Your exact words were:

Ranger, how come I'm so low on your list?

Because I'm not convinced you're town, particularly if Firebringer were to flip town.

At the same time, you're

voting for Fire

, but considering that he's likely town in your read for Ricastle. Like ... what? It doesn't make any sense from a town mindset.

I'm hardly ignoring Jackal. He's my vote in the next day unless something radically changes, but I feel like if I don't persuade town to vote you now, the people scum-reading you will mysteriously die and the wagon will never be a thing. If you're getting lynched, today is the day to do it. I'm happy to draw attention to myself in doing so, which I'm well-aware that I'm doing, because it forces people to look at my case. I do not feel anyone has done this so far. I don't believe a single person other than you and I has commented on my case re: your lining up lynches.

[Rob14]

And thanks for trying to discredit me by telling me I belong in the newbie queue, but I have a 100% winrate as town since returning to the site this year, and I have a >70% winrate as town overall. That is not coincidence.

[Rob14]

Your later town-read on Ricastle is

not

at all related to my lining up lynches tell on you. I'm not sure if you're conflating the two to attack a strawman or just misunderstanding what I mean when I say lining up lynches, but you're bringing up your later town-read on Ricastle, NOT me.

You just said you thought he was scum YOURSELF in #249! You said scum but weakening. So which is it? Was he a weak scum read or a null read? If you're going to throw shit at the fan and hope it sticks, you might want to try to at least be consistent in explaining your rationales.

The "If" isn't the way a townie thinks. That's what you're either not getting or trying to make go away. You don't come out of the gate thinking you're wrong. Every townie realizes they could be wrong, which is why I avoid relational tells altogether, but I have never ever seen a townie post about relational tells that assume they're wrong. Ever. I've seen scum do it routinely as an attempt to move fluidly from town to town without looking like their "new" reads don't have a foundation in their posting during previous days.

Ranger, the fact that you're bringing up the townread thing makes it immediately invalid. You know that. I know that. Everyone else knows that. Why are you persisting with it? I've explained a clear rationale for you to kill Ricastle. I was pushing you based on your read of him. Scum!You didn't want to be examined closely, so you removed the reason for the push in hopes that I'd move onto something else. Killing me would have been substantially more risky because it could be more directly tied to you. If you are scum, killing Ricastle is the optimal move. Like ... are you claiming that you don't realize scum analyzes how kills could come back to haunt them when they make them? If so, maybe you should be the one going back to the newbie queue.

Trying to push CN's lynch on me when you fucking peaced out of the thread with no time left and your vote uselessly on Jackal (at L-4) is rich. It's really fucking rich. It was a deadline lynch. It was that or a no lynch after you refused to place a vote that actually mattered for anything. I even called you out on that at the time, and you promised that people would mysteriously appear before going to take a nap or some shit. GUESS WHAT. THEY DIDN'T. I had CN as a town read, which I made very clear as deadline approached, but the whole playerlist decided to vote useless wagons and leave nothing but a shitty option. That's not on me. If anything, it's on you for your Jackal vote at deadline.

I never voted Ricastle. I never scumread him. I did want to push him in Day 2 for making a useless vote, just like you, and I stand by that.

And you haven't flipped. You'll flip scum though. There's no way your rationale here is legit. If it is, you honestly

should

go back to the newbie queue.

[Rob14]

Your entire 255 is complete WIFOM. What did I expect, though?

My reads on Jackal and you are entirely independent. I noted the possible bussing because it was obviously going to be the next question ("BUT HOW COULD THEY BE PARTNERS WHEN JACKAL VOTED RANGER THEN IMMEDIATELY UNVOTED? WHO WOULD DO SUCH A THING?!?!?" ~ idiot townies everywhere). It is not part of my read and never has been.

There were good reasons for your wagon near deadline. That's a clear difference.

Why do I give a shit if you hated the CN wagon? The point is, you were willing to no lynch. You voted Jackal where no-one else was voting then literally logged off with hours to go. And you have the fucking audacity to blame the mislynch on

me

?

I'm done engaging with you. I'm happy to answer any questions from other players, but my case is clear. Your defense literally doesn't make sense. It's barely coherent, and it's attacking arguments that aren't even there. You keep bringing in random other actions you've done and saying that my argument doesn't prove those actions were scummy. We're either having two totally different conversations, or you're just throwing everything you've ever done out there in an attempt to confuse my case.

My case is simple. In #92, you laid the foundation for a jump onto Ricastle if Fire was town. You were currently voting Fire. If you were town, you would not think that way; you would not have begun examining relational tells that assume you're incorrect. Especially not on page 4. On the other hand, scum!Ranger would know Fire is town and be looking for the next lynch. This post reveals a strong scum motivation and no town motivation, ergo scum.

Do not let all the other bullshit Ranger is throwing out there confuse my case. It's simple. I reduced it to one paragraph to make it extra simple.

P-edit: And there you go again, confusing things. "If statements" are not scummy. The particular way you used one in #92 is. You're attempting to say I'm attacking you for an "if statement" alone and then attack that argument. That is simply not the argument I'm making, and it's not even a reasonable reading of what I've posted. It's a blatant strawman.

[Rob14]

In the face of pressure? Yeah, you would change the read! Literally the progression of events is this:

1) You line up lynches.
2) I call you on lining up lynches.
3) You swap your read.
4) You say that's proof you never lined up lynches.

That's not how it works! You can't just go back on what you did earlier and then say it never happened because you reneged. As I said earlier, no takebacksies.

In #19, Ricastle was your scummiest read (although you say it's still not strong scum). In #85, you have him only one tier above Fire, fifth in a set of six tiers. You talk about having him in a specific order of lynches in #81. How is that not a scum read? Or bordering on another example of lining up lynches, for that matter (not quite there, imo)?

No-lynching is horrible on Day 1. It gives no information. It prevents us from developing further reads. I'd rather self-vote and lynch myself than no-lynch on Day 1, because people can analyze my wagon to determine where to go on Day 2.

I literally noted 143 in my last post, where I said I did want to push him for a useless vote, just like I wanted to push you for a useless vote. That's not a scumread. It was anti-town behavior, though, and I noted it. Since you're indulging in this WIFOM game, maybe I should as well: Why would I note Ricastle as a developing scum read if I planned to kill him off that night? Feel free to either drop your WIFOM bullshit or acknowledge that I'm now super townie because of that line of thinking. You should do the former, because WIFOM is bad.

I'm not voting you for having a useless vote. That's not my case. If you want to read my case, refer to the bold in the last post I made. Another example of trying to throw all your other actions on the table and tell me all about how they aren't explicitly scummy.

THAT'S NOT MY CASE.

I'm feeling the need to have a macro ready for that sentence for the rest of this game.

P-edit: You're saying town players shouldn't be transparent like that? I was simply noting that I had considered the bussing element when placing the reads, mostly because I try to avoid relational bullshit pre-flips. When there's a choice between explaining myself and not or elaborating on my reasoning and not, I always go with more explaining/elaborating. It's good for the game and for the ability of others to read me.

No-lynching is not preferable to mislynching in Day 1. You're wrong.

I'm entirely done responding to you, though. I'm not going to convince you to self-vote, so it's a pointless exercise. Feel free to keep building strawmen and yammering on about things I haven't even said. I trust that others will see through that if you continue.

[Rob14]

Lining up lynches in the way Ranger did is absolutely a scumtell. The actual act of having more than one scumread is NOT the point. The point is that Ranger was incorporating the fact that Fire was town in her read of Ricastle while simultaneously voting Fire. That doesn't make sense unless she knew Fire was town. If "obsessing" over a scumtell makes me scum, then god help this town.

[Rob14]

Can town think that? Sure.

Have I ever seen town post it as their first pass at a read on B? No. Because at the very least, they start on the assumption they're right and then evaluate if they're wrong. More often, though, they don't even post it at all and it's just kicking around in their head.

Like ... if we spent time going over every way that we could be wrong all day long, game threads would be a mess. Scum

know

they're "wrong".

[Rob14]

When asked directly about the read, the first thing she said was "not convinced of town, especially if Fire is town". That's what I meant by first pass at a read. The first response was based on "if Fire is town".

[Rob14]

VOTE: Jackal

[Rob14]

VOTE: Jackal

[Rob14]

Yeah, that's worthy of a "Most Memorable Event" nom after the game is over.

[Rob14]

VOTE: No Lynch

[Rob14]

I'm currently V/LA with family stuff. Grandpa just came off surgery, and I'm helping out. Unfortunately, I'll be V/LA the entire day. I'll be able to get on at least once a day, and I don't intend to replace out, but be aware I won't be hugely active.

I need to look at what the night kills mean and both players. Obviously, my immediate inclination is that it's Ranger, but I don't want to entirely dismiss Fire. I will freely admit that I have a seriously hard time reading Fire. I was getting gut town from him all game, though, and that's hard to overcome given the stuff that makes me pretty sure Ranger is scum.

[Rob14]

The thing that gives me the biggest pause about Ranger is that it seems like suicide to go into LyLo vs me and Fire. It could just be a bold WIFOM play, but it doesn't make much sense.

[Rob14]

You don't? That's how LyLo works. We all have to figure it out.

Which day conversation did I skip?

[Rob14]

Uh ... what? It's MyLo. It's conventional strategy to no lynch, let scum kill to reduce the lynch pool, and then lynch the next day. There's no discussion needed there. Ranger also said nothing that day, so even if you think there is discussion needed about MyLo strategy (???), both live players did the same thing.

Even if there was something worth commenting on, I wouldn't have done it at that time, because my grandpa's surgery was the day prior and I had very little access that day. I'm about to head to bed, by the way, but I'll stay on a bit if you want to finish this conversation. Or at least I'll try to - may fall asleep on accident.

[Rob14]

I'm nodding off where I sit, so just as a heads up, I'm not staying up. I'll check this when I wake up if there's time.

[Rob14]

Leaning towards Ranger as what?

I'm back now, but I doubt you're around. I'm happy to have a conversation when you're back. I need to read through your ISO at some point, but that may have to wait a day.

[Rob14]

Fire: When you have an even number of players, the number of players/2 is enough to no lynch (since if you have 4 players and 2 aren't voting, it's impossible to lynch). I assume that's where you got the "double voter" thing. I am not a double voter. It is no aspect of my role.

I'm a Town Nexus.

This setup is exactly as I laid out in 229, I expect, given all these enablers. None of the roles interact; it's functionally 7 vt/2 goon. I've run a similarly misleading setup before.

Ranger, claim.

[Rob14]

Also, all three of us are here right now. Can we have a conversation (long if needed) and get this over with today? I don't know when I'll be able to be on at a time anyone else is on for the rest of the day phase given my current time commitments related to the V/LA I mentioned earlier.

[Rob14]

Looking at Fire's ISO now, by the way. Hopefully I'll come up with something that is stronger than gut to indicate town (or scum).

[Rob14]

Ranger has no votes, and I doubt we'll get the people to make that quickwagon a thing, so I'm placing Fire on L-1.

VOTE: Fire

Fire, claim.

8 hours left and I'm going to bed soon.

Nope.
Not claiming.

Why did you not want to claim that close to deadline?

[Rob14]

Soren,

town cop-enabler

, has been killed. Day four begins now, and ends in (expired on 2016-01-02 02:04:00). With four alive

it takes three to lynch

.

Your lying Rob. It said it took 3, not 2.

It takes 3 to LYNCH, not to NO LYNCH.

@Mod - In your ruleset, if there are 4 players alive, how many players does it take to no lynch?

If you plan to vote me on that, wait for the mod's answer. It will confirm what I'm saying.

[Rob14]

Let me find some games with this in the ruleset.

[Rob14]

Here's one example (first hit on Google from this site and a string of text related to the rule): http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=58821

[Rob14]

Well, first relevant hit - it's actually like the third or fourth because a lot of players say "no lynch" a lot.

[Rob14]

The one thing that confuses me is why Ranger was posturing to play "gotcha" with me. I literally guessed and posted the setup in a previous day, in direct response to her. She also knew about and was thinking of the setup at the time, based on her posting.

Like ... if I was scum, I'd have had like half a week over the past day/night phases to think about a safe fakeclaim, as would she. If she were town, what would she expect to find?

Kind of wondering if she planned to counter-claim whatever I claimed? That would also explain the insistence on me going first.

[Rob14]

Guess we just have to wait and find out though.

I finished reading Fire's ISO (well, fast reading, but still reading). The first day was bad, as I pointed out at the time, but I think that's just Fire's meta. There was real scum-hunting beyond that. Like, there's not any one thing I can point to as a "this is 100% town" post, but you were asking good questions, pressuring people where you needed to, etc. So it's a bit stronger than gut now, but still mostly gut.

[Rob14]

Right, so I'm a nurse. I hinted at this many, many times.
I'm almost positive the second scum is Firebringer. I'm going to lay out the reasons in a moment.

Quote the hints please.

And I'm all ears on Fire, but it will take lots of convincing. I'm pretty convinced it's you.

[Rob14]

The one thing that confuses me is why Ranger was posturing to play "gotcha" with me. I literally guessed and posted the setup in a previous day, in direct response to her. She also knew about and was thinking of the setup at the time, based on her posting.

Because if you were scum and claimed nurse, then I'd know it was you.
Nurse is, after all, a likely role in the setup. So it would be reasonable for scum without a fakeclaim (my working assumption being that they don't have one) to claim nurse. If you had, then I would have been wrong on Firebringer, but you didn't. So I'm pretty sure it's Firebringer.

Ok, that does make sense as a double-checking your reads thing.

[Rob14]

I wouldn't vote there right now. At the very least, I'm willing to hear her out.

[Rob14]

Call BS on what?

Nexus is a VT too with these roles. It redirects everything but a kill, but there's nothing but kills.

>.<

[Rob14]

When designing a setup intended to surprise, it's important to make the roles as different as possible, imo. At least when I designed a highly similar setup, that's what I did. Otherwise, you risk the players finding out early that it's really a 7vt/2goon game.

I'm surprised Ythan even put in a deputy and cop-enabler. Putting in a doc-enabler and nurse as well would be extremely repetitive and unlikely to surprise players. I mean, those roles can obviously do nothing. Nexus is way less obvious. Ascetic is less obvious. Even miller is a bit less obvious.

For example, consider the role list from my game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=5307692

Town Reflexive Ninja Rolestopper
Town Suicidal Ninja Seer
Town Nexus
Town Odd Night Tracker
Vanilla Townie
Town Day Watcher
Town Reflexive Ninja Rolestopper

Mafia Ninja JOAT Lover
Mafia Ninja Godfather Bomb Lover

[Rob14]

All of that is about setup, though. There's nothing specific to nurse. I could maybe see it if you lumped yourself with only Ricastle when talking, but you lump yourself with {Ricastle, absinthe} and then {Ricastle, absinthe, CN}. So I don't really see a convincing nurse crumb here.

That's not to say it's scummy; I kind of believe you that

you

believed you crumbed. But it's null without a specific thing I can point to and say here's a nurse crumb.

[Rob14]

Like if you read davesaz ISO, one of his strongest scum reads was you Rob.

Why would Ranger, keep either me or you alive when we were BOTH heavily scum reading her earlier.
It doesn't make much sense.

Because

it doesn't make any sense. Your logic here is WIFOM. As early as Night 2, scum knew they were going into 3p LyLo and that they got to choose who (besides the non-Jackal scum) was there. Whether it's you or Ranger, they had ample opportunity to try to figure out how to survive.

That's why I haven't voted you yet. You're right, the kills do look good for Ranger, but that could be because Ranger

wanted

the kills to look good for Ranger.

And quit it with that nonsense vote/unvote shit. It's unnecessary risk. Either vote or FOS.

[Rob14]

The more I think about it, the more I think it actually is Rob13.

I mean why is Rob13 still around?
Think about it, It makes sense why I have been around. I haven't been right all game. Why wouldn't scum keep me alive.

Half of town was ready to lynch me in the last day phase. Ranger certainly was. It's not like I'm a strong candidate for a night kill. I'm a possible mislynch. Unfortunately, that's true of all players left alive. You were never a strong town read of anyone. Ranger had substantial suspicion on them. I had substantial suspicion on me.

[Rob14]

You don't enter a LYLO situation with 2 players who are likely going to lynch you, thats not a smart move as scum at all. Even for WIFOm purposes.

Give me one second and I'll link literally my first game of mafia ever where I was scum and did exactly this. And won because of it.

[Rob14]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=23651

In a difficult situation where you have substantial suspicion on you, it's a hail mary play that actually works very well.

[Rob14]

Day 2 pressure, not Day 1 pressure.

[Rob14]

Actually, looks like I was wrong. Most people went on Jackal, not me, but several of them did that because of deadlines. Looking in reads lists, they were scum reading me or leaning that way.

[Rob14]

Vote Count

Jackal711: Ranger, absinthe, Rob13 (3)
Ranger: Firebringer (1)
Firebringer: Soren (1)

Not voting: davesaz, Jackal711

With 7 alive it's 4 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2015-12-25 19:40:00).

Jackea is L-1.

Hammer intent.

Because keeping him alive and perpetuating the lining up lynches narrative was dangerous to your continued existence. A scum will always kill someone town-reading them if leaving that person alive risks a scum lynch. You're deliberately ignoring my entire explanation of why you would have motivation as scum to kill Ricastle in favor of attacking ... what, exactly? You're not addressing any argument. You're just saying "He was town-reading me, so I wouldn't kill him." That's WIFOM bullshit and you know it. You've never addressed my specific rationale why you would kill Ricastle except to say you weren't lining up lynches, even though it's clear that you were.

VOTE: Ranger

Not letting this scum get away. Both Jackal and Soren get the rope next for being absolutely useless, if not outright scummy.

I'm down for a Rob lynch. Lining up lynches is not a scumtell but obsessing on it is.
I'd still much prefer Jackal, and had given intent. That's another reason to suspect Rob.

[Rob14]

And Ranger, obv.

[Rob14]

Still need to read Ranger's wall, but in response to 368, you're asking the wrong question. At Night 2, the scum knows that Jackal is going down due to his claim before the no lynch. They know that this will place town in MyLo, resulting in a no lynch. So they have three kills (Nights 2, 3, 4) to decide who gets to be in 3p LyLo. They can choose who gets to LyLo out of: {Ranger, Fire, Dave, Soren, Absinthe, Rob}. They are one of those people and need to kill three.

If I were scum, I would have left Soren alive, who didn't seem to have a handle on the game, was scum reading Ranger, and didn't seem to give a rat's ass about finding scum. Soren also specifically made statements saying that they preferred lynching Ranger over me. What's my motivation to not keep Soren alive in that situation? It's kind of obvious I'd want to go into LyLo with {Ranger, Soren} and let Soren vote Ranger for the win. At least in my opinion it's obvious.

And yet Soren was killed Night 3.

I can see you bringing {Ranger, Fire, Rob} to LyLo because I think I made it pretty obvious I was near certain Ranger was scum.

Ranger bringing {Ranger, Fire, Rob} to LyLo is more questionable, and I need to think about it more. WIFOM is a strong possibility. It's a strategy that I've had success with myself in the past, in that game I linked to you and others. I do have to wonder whether {Ranger, Absinthe, Rob} would have been a better choice, though. The kill on Dave would be enough WIFOM, and Absinthe was very slightly leaning toward me as scum over Ranger. Specifically, Absinthe didn't like my case on Ranger. So I don't know why Ranger wouldn't keep Absinthe in if scum.

Gotta think about that last part more.

[Rob14]

VOTE: Ranger

[Rob14]

I can't believe Ranger changed to a scum-read on you. I ... did not expect that.

[Rob14]

I really should have been very obviously not scum, though.
You were hardcore buddying Rob and townreading him. He let that happen. He brought you in, and you were scumreading me. He couldn't let players live that were thinking I was town, so I knew it was going to be a Firebringer-Rob13-Ranger lylo. I just thought that the order of the deaths would be telling, and Soren's death first threw me off.

I went into Night 2 knowing I could choose any 3 for LyLo, so I purposefully messed with the order to make it seem weird.

If you know Night 2 that you have 3 kills with little to zero discussion in between, there's no motivation to use the normal order.

[Rob14]

I did also mention in the scum PT that I thought I could get Fire to quick-vote. I couldn't, but Ranger could, apparently. It's a quick-vote all the same.

[Rob14]

Why? It's optimal in MyLo.

[Rob14]

Thanks. I thought I played kinda shit though. I went all-in on Ranger, but she made good arguments. I did genuinely think it looked like she was lining up lynches when I made the argument, but she eventually explained it to what would have been my satisfaction had I been town. At that point, though, I was fairly committed and I just went for the jugular.

The Jackal claim was unexpected.

[Rob14]

I do think my LyLo play was good, though. That was the one thing I was satisfied with this game.

[Rob14]

The hanging around at night was legit because of my schedule. I'm V/LA and will be until January 4 most likely. I didn't want to be unable to respond to stuff.

And I disagree. I always think you should no lynch in MyLo reflexively. NKA is useless because scum knows you're about to go into MyLo so they can put off an incriminating kill until the next night phase (as I did). VCA can all be done in the next day.

[Rob14]

Yeah, I did that intentionally. Can't believe I wasn't called on it.

[Rob14]

Good thing Rob came along, because I was eating dinner and didn't hear the alarm.

This post by the way ... lol

[Rob14]

Hey, it was a damn good play. Or would have been if you didn't claim -.-

[Rob14]

I had to. If I disappeared into the ether, we were both dead. I'm sure those alive at the time can 100% confirm that.