Blitz 14: Murder on Madness Mountain GAME OVER!

[Ranger]

{absinthe}
{Firebringer, Rob13, Jackal711, davesaz, Soren, Chaotic Neutrality}
{Ricastle}

Unfortunately I think I came in a little too soon to have more accurate reads. Ricastle's not even a scumread.

[Ranger]

What have I done that has earned me a place below everyone else yet does not warrant a P1 vote?

Your posting wasn't as good as everyone else's, yet you still don't feel like scum.

I'm a little frustrated and frankly, embarrassed.

Scumhunting off the RVS is what I

do

.
I was given 16 posts to read the entire playerlist, which should be more than plenty.

I drew a blank.

That's a lot of credence to put in a miller claim.

I have good reason to trust your claim.

[Ranger]

Correction.

I drew a blank.

That implies past tense.

Still am drawing a blank.

[Ranger]

So davesaz moves up a tier and so does Ricastle, but still not really getting things nearly as productive as I should be. :/

{absinthe}
{davesaz}
{literally everyone else}

[Ranger]

What are you thinking about Rob13?

Vaguely looks town, not as town as dave or you, and about as town as...everyone else.
I

want

him to be town, just...am not sure yet if he is.

[Ranger]

That statement strikes me as odd; care to explain?

It means exactly that: given your posting so far, I want you to be town. You're posting in a very logical way and appear to be giving off more thoughts than any other player. But while that's good posting, nothing you've done has been undeniably

town

posting, if your scumgame is at all reasonably skilled. Make sense?

I'm picking up some minor town vibes from Soren, so right now, my reads look like this:
{absinthe}
{davesaz}
{Soren} (not quite as town as davesaz)
{everyone else}

...That said, if I can get one more townread of reasonable strength, POE should do the rest. (Another reason I'm wanting Rob to be town, I suppose: if Rob's town, then problem solved; we probably lynch Firebringer, Ricastle, and Chaotic Neutrality in that order most likely. But I'm not comfortable with calling that out yet.)

[Ranger]

Huh. Forgot Jackall. Whoops.
That makes my job even harder. :/

[Ranger]

Rereading the thread, and I think that a Firebringer lynch would probably be best.
If Firebringer is scum, great! We have a scum down, and also information to work from on finding a partner.
If Firebringer isn't scum, then we still gain a fair amount of info: who was pushing Firebringer, and why. (Not to mention, who defended Firebringer, and how.) It doesn't give quite as definitive information, but it's still useful to have.

Right now, my reads look something like:
{absinthe}
{davesaz}
{Soren}
{Rob13}
{Chaotic Neutrality, Ricastle, Jackall}
{Firebringer}
...But this is very weak.

All the same, I don't have any better ideas, so:
VOTE: Firebringer.
Might be L-1, not sure.

[Ranger]

I am getting not town vibes from you Ranger.

CARE TO EXPLAIN!?!?!?

Oh?

Also ranger is town.

Care to explain this comment, then?

[Ranger]

Ranger, how come I'm so low on your list?

Because I'm not convinced you're town, particularly if Firebringer were to flip town. If Firebringer flips scum, then I'd look to see if I thought your interactions were that of scumbuddies, but until then, you're not sending strong signals which say town.

That hurts, pal, especially with how much I admire what you do, to the point where I aspire to one day be like you...

...Especially given flattery like this. We don't have any completed games together, why are you saying this to me?


Also,

Mod: I will be V/LA from the 23rd through the 30th.

Particularly the 23rd and the 30th, when I travel.
Reasons should be obvious enough. I'll be able to post once a day (possible exception the two days above), but that'll be it.

[Ranger]

Once you understand the reason, you'll know I'm town.

I think I do, actually.
Ricastle is town.

{Ricastle}
{absinthe}
{davesaz}
{Soren}
{Rob13}
{Chaotic Neutrality, Jackall}
{Firebringer}
absinthe may be equal to Ricastle, but Ricastle's town.

[Ranger]

Do you typically sort people out so quickly?

Yeah, which is why I was disappointed by my weak start.

Still not as strong as I would like to be, but it'll do.

[Ranger]

've re-read a bit, and that lining up lynches thing really strikes me as unlikely to come from town.

Good, because I wasn't lining up lynches.

This lynch gives us a lot of information if Ranger flips scum, with both Fire and Ricastle becoming almost conf-town.

And it gives you...

what

, exactly, when I flip town?

[Ranger]

My request for more activity has gone unheeded.

Yeah, because you're trying to lynch one of the people who

actually responded

.

I'm going to be plenty active until my V/LA kicks in. I have some last-minute holiday shopping I need to get done, but otherwise, I'm free until the 23rd. I'm here, talking.
And you're lynching me.

[Ranger]

What is the alternative you propose? Lynch blindly in the lurkers?

Not

blindly

in the lurkers.
But yes, lynching a lurker, strategically, is my best alternative.

One particular eye-catcher is Jackall.

I've been scumpartners with Ranger and this isn't her scumgame.

I want you to explain this.
I also want Rob to comment on what he thinks of me this game in comparison to what he knows of me from his modding experience.

[Ranger]

You state that as an absolute. Scumslip much?

Yeah, I think I want to lynch this.
VOTE: Jackal711.

[Ranger]

I don't think it's viable to create a wagon from scratch 7 hours out. We'd have no time to build the wagon, get a claim, and consider it.

This is true regardless. Firebringer lynch, Chaos lynch, Jackal lynch, we're not getting time to consider the claim.

But I do think we can get a lynch in that time-frame.
Jackal's probably our best bet for scum.

[Ranger]

What makes you think people are going to pop out of the woodwork after 10PM EST to complete a quicklynch?

Experience.

Oh, Ranger, you swapped off Fire too. Why are you chasing a no lynch?

Hypocrite. :P

I switched off of Firebringer because I'm no longer sure about Firebringer's alignment.
Jackal on the other hand is the best bet for scum.

I'd rather vote someone I think is scum than vote someone who I don't think is scum.
It's that simple.

[Ranger]

Like...Rob.
If you were serious about getting a lynch.
ChaoticNeutrality is at L-3. The leading wagon right now.

You'd have joined there.

[Ranger]

Yes, I know, you said you think scum is there.

So...why if you refuse to join the CN wagon because you think it's scum...
...Do you not realize why people would hesitate to vote Firebringer?

It's the same type of thing.
You won't vote CN the lead wagon because you hate the wagon.
I won't vote Firebringer (or CN for that matter) because I'm not confident in that wagon.

But I'm not that concerned about the lynch.

[Ranger]

{Ricastle}
{absinthe}
{davesaz}
{Soren}
{Rob13, Chaotic Neutrality}
{ Firebringer}
{Jackal711}

[Ranger]

Ranger, I have concerns about you.

And this is probably not going to help.

But I think we can actually break the game if we massclaim.

Yes I realize I'm the lead lynch candidate right now and proposing a massclaim doesn't do me any favors. I'll go first, but only if we get at least three players agreeing to the massclaim. I had a suspicion yesterday, but I wasn't sure. Now, I'm almost positive. I really, really think a massclaim will win us the game, and I want it to happen before I cast a vote.

[Ranger]

I think I know what the setup is because I ran it once before as a closed bastard game.

If the setup is what I think it is, it's misleading, not bastard.
I think that massclaim will help reveal who the mafia are.

Ranger was lining up lynches on two players, one of which we now know is town (CN), and the other of which I think is town (Fire). This is inherently scummy.

I most certainly was not. I did not vote CN, I unvoted Firebringer, I backed off of both lynches you're accusing me of lining up, and did so with explained reasoning.

[Ranger]

After I called you on lining up lynches. That hardly gets you town points.

Hardly gets me town points, sure, but invalidates your point. I never pushed CN, I backed off of Firebringer, that was based off of me reconsidering my reads, and I showed why. Calling me out on lining up mislynches does nothing.

I'm almost positive we're thinking the same thing.

If we're wrong, PRs die.
If we're right, the setup could be designed in a way that it's impossible to tell who's scum even if all roles are claimed. There is no benefit.

Well I suppose there was benefit from this after all. I agree we're probably thinking the same thing, and from it I think you're town.

Very good point.

VOTE: Ranger
I believe that's L-1

Rob.
JACKAL putting me at L-1 doesn't concern you...at all?

Like...really?
At all?

Regardless of whether we massclaim or not, Jackal is scum.
VOTE: Jackal711.

[Ranger]

{absinthe}
{Rob13}
{davesaz, Soren, Firebringer}
{Jackal711}

Minor reset for davesaz/Soren/Firebringer; not sure who's the second scum. But Jackal most definitely is one.
Check out his lurking and utter opportunism the whole game.

[Ranger]

Fire comes off as scummy to me.. though I don't like the fact that Soren's posts have been nothing but an attempt to push the Fire wagon.

At least one of those 2 is scum...

Hey, Rob.
You accused ME of lining up mislynches.

What do you think of this, then?

Also, note the opportunism.

[Ranger]

Like...you said this.

Some people express Soren concerns and immediately you're trying to start a counter-wagon there to save yourself?

Then look at who Jackal pushes in 59: Firebringer (the lead wagon), and Soren (who people had expressed concerns about).

[Ranger]

127 was opportunistic (making the ChaoticNeutrality wagon the largest) and did not follow from his "One of Firebringer or Soren is scum" thought.

Then, again ignoring the Firebringer/Soren thought, you get his recent 204, blatantly sheeping you, Rob, and placing me at L-1...again with no thought of his own and ignoring his previously-stated sentiments.

Jackal is not scumhunting.
He is also the player with the least number of posts in the game at five. He's avoiding giving content entirely.

[Ranger]

Doing a triple-iso of davesaz/Soren/Firebringer, I keep on going back-and-forth. Overall, Soren comes out looking fairly neutral-to-town consistently, so of the three, I'd think Soren's probably the most town.

Firebringer I go back-and-forth on. On the one hand, we get some blatant buddying/omgus/reverse-omgus in the form of things like 146 and also contradicting reads. On the other hand, I see Firebringer raising good points every once and a while, showing what looks like unique thought.

davesaz similarly has some good moments, but a lot of his pushes don't make sense.

I didn't like Soren's reply to my question and agree that he looks shady. Thinking that we have scum caught does not obviate the need to look at everyone else.

This, while voting Firebringer. In 78/79, davesaz also makes CN/Soren suspicion, yet his vote was still on Firebringer.

I'm here and would be willing to vote either Ranger or CN.

Then we get me appearing out of nowhere, when a wagon was forming; why did he suddenly support a lynch on me?

Especially given that, today, he posted this:

Fire, Rob: why Ranger over Soren?

The thing which makes me hesitate is this:

Pretty worried they're both town. I'd prefer Soren or Jackal, but neither is an option without 2-3 more people online.

He mentioned Jackal as a lynch, when nobody else (aside from me) did.

Still, if I had to guess, davesaz would be my current pick for second scum.

[Ranger]

That post directly says "If X is town, Y is scum".

It really, really doesn't? Read it again. "I'm not convinced you're town, especially if Firebringer is town" does not translate into "If Firebringer is town, Ricastle is scum". It translates into, exactly what it says, me not being convinced Ricastle's town, especially not if Firebringer was also town.

"If Firebringer flips scum" is obviously not chaining mislynches because it

requires a scum lynch

.

I think you killed Ricastle at night to try to dodge the argument about lining up lynches.

I knew Ricastle was a deputy. (That's why Ricastle became my top-townread.) You know why I wouldn't kill them.

I posted this a few minutes after midnight. If I don't move my vote it's almost guaranteed to be a no-lynch.

I'm quite aware you were willing to vote both top wagons. That's my

point

: CN you had lead-in for, so it makes sense you'd be willing to vote there. (He was a scumread of yours.) But you expressed no reason for why you'd vote me.

[Ranger]

(And, seriously. Why do people keep on thinking I as scum would kill my top townread?)

[Ranger]

If you're scum blending in with town, and town is townreading your townread, it's actually better to NK your townread.

True.
So tell me...who was townreading Ricastle other than me?

...My point exactly.

This bugs me -- you knew what?

I knew Ricastle was a Deputy, yes. As in, a backup cop.
The reasons for this are obvious, though I'm not pointing them out right now for good reason.

You knew Ricastle was a PR and that's your reason why you wouldn't have killed them?

Everyone's a PR, Rob.
I knew Ricastle was a

harmless

PR.
Deputies are no threat until a cop dies.
And I knew Ricastle was a Deputy.

[Ranger]

No, we don't know everyone's a PR.

Yes we do. If you were actually sincere in us thinking the same thing, you know as well as I do everyone's a PR.

PR does not mean "has an action". PR means "is not a vanilla townie". And by that definition, my statement is accurate.

There is more to it than that, of course, as you

should

know. But it does not invalidate my statement.

So far, we know that we have a miller, ascetic, and deputy. Those are all roles that, in the absence of other types of roles like cop, doc, etc., do nothing. My theory is that this setup has 7 vts and 2 goons functionally. None of the roles actually interact. I ran that as a "bastard" game once before, where I advertised the game heavily as bastard, but the only bastard thing about it was that it wasn't really bastard.

As indicated by the title: Madness (as in,

role madness

) Mountain (as in,

Mountainous

, no PRs).

I wasn't sure of this D1. I had a suspicion, about 60%, about it, but the other was that my role was real and so too was Ricastle's and so too was absinthe's.

How?

I stated on D1 that I had reason to believe your claim. This made Ricastle, mistakenly, believe I was a cop. (My role led me to believe either a role madness mountainous game as laid out above, making your claim likely to come from town, or that there would be a cop in the game.) Ricastle then 'crumbed replacing me. The connection was easy to make from there, and when I realized Ricastle was 'crumbing town deputy, the method for which Ricastle was doing so was extremely sincere, leading me to believe that was Ricastle's role, exactly the same reason I townread you, only even stronger.

[Ranger]

35: I state my trust in absinthe's claim.
37: Ricastle indicates I'm town.
89: Ricastle states desire to one day be like me.
Me not understanding the statement (because I thought Ricastle was talking about play when we've never had a finished game), I post 92. (This is also, incidentally, the alleged lining-up-mislynches post.)
Ricastle answers in 96, and I realize what Ricastle is thinking, posting 112.

That's how I knew Ricastle was a deputy.
I knew Ricastle wasn't a threat.
So why would I kill Ricastle? It'd accomplish nothing but eliminating an ally of mine.

[Ranger]

You're deliberately ignoring my entire explanation of why you would have motivation as scum to kill Ricastle in favor of attacking ... what, exactly? You're not addressing any argument.

So tell me what exactly your argument is, then?

'Cause I'm fairly certain I've addressed everything.

You've never addressed my specific rationale why you would kill Ricastle except to say you weren't lining up lynches, even though it's clear that you were.

Rob.
If you're actually town.
And you read 92 as lining up mislynches.
When there is NO POSSIBLE WAY THAT POST CAN BE SUCH.
And I explained this in both 222

and

241.

Go back to Road to Rome.

[Ranger]

Not letting this scum get away. Both Jackal and Soren get the rope next for being absolutely useless, if not outright scummy.

Who's the one lining up mislynches

now

, hmm, Rob?

You ignored Jackal's lining up mislynches.
You're ignoring how you're lining up mislynches right now.
To focus on me when my post was very clearly NOT lining up mislynches and I showed, demonstrated why, it was not, both by virtue of pointing out my wording, and by virtue of explaining my mind-set when posting.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Rob13.
I think it's a Rob-Jackal scumteam.

This would also explain the Ricastle kill, since that was where Ricastle was focusing attention it seemed like, near the end of the day.

[Ranger]

Lining up lynches is when you use bullshit relations back-to-back to jump from town to town fluidly. It's when you say "If X is town, then Y is scum" while voting X.

Yes...which I very specifically was not doing.

Again. I said I was not convinced Ricastle was town. This is not stating suspicion. I was not convinced Ricastle would be town particularly if Firebringer were town. This is still not stating strong suspicion. I was scumreading Firebringer at the time, but I was perfectly aware my read could have been wrong. (My read was still scum, but

weakening

.) If it was, then assumptions I had made off of Firebringer being scum would therefore need to be revisited...among them, Ricastle. This is not, in any way, suspicion specific to Ricastle. This is, explicitly, reevaluating information off of new circumstances. Ricastle was the subject because Ricastle is who I was talking to. However, my statement would have been true regardless of the subject: If Firebringer flipped town when I had scumread Firebringer, then all my reads based off of interactions with Firebringer (e.g. players who voted Firebringer being more likely to be town) would need reassessment.

I was talking to Ricastle, because Ricastle wanted to know why I wasn't sure Ricastle was town. So I explained. Then, immediately following this, Ricastle gave a very strong hint as to being a deputy, and it was

based off of this information

, NOT, as you either arrogantly or deliberately accuse me of, your accusation of me lining up mislynches, that Ricastle became town. This is because I was interacting with Ricastle to get a better read, answering questions and being engaged in a conversation that productively gave me my strongest townread.

Your 241 gives your supposed rationale for suspecting Ricastle, but doesn't explain why you were considering him scummy conditional on Fire being town (which is what defines lining up lynches!) or why you even had the thought process of "If Fire is town ..." in the first place.

Because I WASN'T. As I said...I wasn't convinced Ricastle was town. How. In ANY universe. "I'm not convinced you're town" translates to "I think you're scum", you'll have to tell me. Ricastle wanted to know why he was so low. I told him because I wasn't sure he was town. I also explained how, as I said above, Firebringer was a scumread of mine which I could be wrong on.

Fundamentally, it is essential. Absolutely, 100%, essential. For a town player to recognize the possibility they are wrong about their read, and therefore, their assumptions. At the time, I was assuming Firebringer was scum. However, in recognizing the possibility I was wrong, I dealt with what would happen if that were true: if Firebringer were town, then my assumptions based on the contrary would need re-visiting, among them Ricastle, because Ricastle was a strong Firebringer pusher. Firebringer being town would mean Ricastle wouldn't be town for that; Firebringer being scum would mean Ricastle would

probably

be town, but as I said in the

second half of the quote you leave out

, I'd need to analyze even

that

to be sure.

So my statement was, simply: "Because I'm not sure of you, regardless of Firebringer's alignment". While voting Firebringer. That's it. No plot to line up mislynches. No desire to lynch Firebringer then Ricastle. Simply me

explaining my stance

, at the request of Ricastle.

At the same time, you're voting for Fire, but considering that he's likely town in your read for Ricastle. Like ... what?

"if".
"if" Firebringer is town.
You're either blatantly ignorant of what "if" means or a total liar.
Because I never said Firebringer was likely town.
I simply say IF he was town.

I feel like if I don't persuade town to vote you now, the people scum-reading you will mysteriously die and the wagon will never be a thing.

Huh, funny, guess what

didn't

happen last night? Guess who WASN'T killed last night? Guess who WAS killed last night?

Oh yeah!

Someone townreading me, that was scumreading both you and Jackal.

And thanks for trying to discredit me by telling me I belong in the newbie queue, but I have a 100% winrate as town since returning to the site this year, and I have a >70% winrate as town overall. That is not coincidence.

Good to hear.
Let's see what you have to say after you lynched CN (town), you pushed Ricastle as scum (town), and you lynch me (also town).

By your own words, it's proof you're scum.

[Ranger]

Isn't it hypocritical to say Jackal is lining up lynches when you did so.

Sure would be, if I had actually done so!

I've pretty much proven exactly why I never did.

Also, because this will be a new page and is really important:

And thanks for trying to discredit me by telling me I belong in the newbie queue, but I have a 100% winrate as town since returning to the site this year, and I have a >70% winrate as town overall. That is not coincidence.

Good to hear.
Let's see what you have to say after you lynched CN (town), you pushed Ricastle as scum (town), and you lynch me (also town).

By your own words, it's proof you're scum.

[Ranger]

CN is an awful wagon. Ranger is best, Fire is better.

Fire needs a prod (as does our mod, who's over the limit on times between VCs).

I don't believe I can do justice to analyzing Jackal before I go to bed in around 10 minutes, so my vote is where it is for the moment. I'd much rather we lynch you, frankly, but I don't believe a vote there is productive for the same reason a vote on Jackal wouldn't be. There's no existing support there and we have no time. We've managed 6 pages in >3.5 days. What makes you think people are going to pop out of the woodwork after 10PM EST to complete a quicklynch? I have no trust in that, and Jackal's null for me right now anyway.

Ricastle deserves serious scum points in Day 2 for swapping off a wagon that's near lynch slightly before deadline and going to sleep immediately. Serious attempt to derail.

I refuse to go with CN. I think scum's on that wagon. It popped up incredibly quickly and close to deadline, and there's no clear reason why. Especially Jackal's vote was not good, but I need more time to examine the wagon.

(This, ignoring the fact that

The Ranger Wagon is the exact same thing

.)

We have two hours. If you'll be around at 3:30am EST, I'd recommend putting your vote on Ranger now if you prefer him and we can change later if needed. I'm going to be up until deadline most likely to make sure we don't no lynch. I'd really prefer Ranger over CN, though. CN's wagon strikes me as awful.

Who do you actually prefer - Ranger or CN?

(Ignoring also that I hated the CN wagon too.)

Speaking of Rob's iso:

I don't analyze for partners pre-flip, since it seriously messes up my reads and thinking if I start looking for associative tells early. I heavily encourage you adopt the practice as well.

I'm predicting a {Ranger, Jackal} scum team where they're desperately cross-bussing because they're both being scumread hard.

Rob is being absolutely hypocritical to his own advice.

[Ranger]

Taking /ins for Murder at Madness Mountain, a role madness microblitz.

Also, explicitly role madness, just to reinforce my point. Ricastle was a role, CN was a role, absinthe is a role, I'm also a role.

[Ranger]

So I'm pretty sure Firebringer is town. Admittedly, this relies on Rob being scum (OH GEE LOOK I MADE AN "IF" STATEMENT I MUST BE LINING UP A MISLYNCH!), but I don't think that Rob buddies Firebringer that hardly if Firebringer were scum. (This is very strongly evident in Rob's posting: he only needs one ally in lylo to win, and Firebringer can be that ally, because Rob's been defending Firebringer the majority of the game. This also works to create the impression of Firebringer being a Rob scumbuddy should Rob flip first, while also giving Rob town credit should Firebringer be lynched first. Thus, Firebringer is town so long as Rob's scum.)

[Ranger]

That puts me at:
{absinthe}
{Firebringer}
{Soren}
{davesaz}
{Jackal711, Rob13}

I'm not so sure about Soren in regards to Rob. Soren by gut feels town, though, regardless of interactions.

If I'm wrong about one of Jackal/Rob (GEE LOOK ANOTHER IF STATEMENT, CONFSCUM TRULY!), then I'd guess davesaz, but this isn't something I have any real evidence for. It's simply feeling, off of Rob's dave interactions (rather, mostly a lack of them) along with dave buddying Rob the way he does, while on the other hand, also fitting as a Jackal scumbuddy for the reasons I already pointed out.

Sadly, if either Soren or absinthe are swayed to vote me, you won't have enough lynches to lynch them all, and you'll just have to hope my intuition about Rob/Jackal is right after I'm lynched. (Because, duh, Jackal's going to go back on, either when it can be done without suspicion, or done as a sacrificial lamb; dave is working his way to voting there, too.)

[Ranger]

Your later town-read on Ricastle is not at all related to my lining up lynches tell on you. I'm not sure if you're conflating the two to attack a strawman or just misunderstanding what I mean when I say lining up lynches, but you're bringing up your later town-read on Ricastle, NOT me.

My later townread on Ricastle

proves the lining up mislynches comment false

. Because if I was actually lining up mislynches...I wouldn't have changed my read, now, would I?

You just said you thought he was scum YOURSELF in #249!

FIREBRINGER. FIREBRINGER was scum but weakening. This should be obvious to anyone reading the context of my post.

Which...was evident by my posts. Like, y'know. Unvoting him near the end of the day.

The "If" isn't the way a townie thinks.

Oh yes it is. Hard "if X is town, Y is scum", sure, that might not be a town thought.
But I, very clearly, as explicitly laid out, was not saying that.

You don't come out of the gate thinking you're wrong.

Which I wasn't. I didn't go, "Well, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about Firebringer being scum in spite of voting them", now, did I?

I, explicitly, was stating the possibility. Which was

growing

, a la my weakening Firebringer scumread. So I didn't come out of the gate thinking I was wrong...but the possibility that I was? Yes. Explicitly so, I was considering it.

I've explained a clear rationale for you to kill Ricastle.

Oh, really?

I see none.

Trying to push CN's lynch on me when you fucking peaced out of the thread with no time left and your vote uselessly on Jackal (at L-4) is rich. It's really fucking rich. It was a deadline lynch. It was that or a no lynch after you refused to place a vote that actually mattered for anything.

And? No-lynching is somehow the end of the world if it saves the life of a town player?

I never voted Ricastle. I never scumread him.

143 implied otherwise.

I did want to push him in Day 2 for making a useless vote, just like you, and I stand by that.

And the fact that Ricastle made a "useless" vote, like me, and flipped town, means...what to you? That me doing the same thing means I'm scum, in spite of proof that a town player can and did think that way?

[Ranger]

I noted the possible bussing because it was obviously going to be the next question ("BUT HOW COULD THEY BE PARTNERS WHEN JACKAL VOTED RANGER THEN IMMEDIATELY UNVOTED? WHO WOULD DO SUCH A THING?!?!?" ~ idiot townies everywhere).

Hey.

We want to talk about things that town players don't do?

Get preemptively defensive and justify things like this. A town player would leave it be until asked by someone. A scum player, fearing they'll be called out, will immediately clarify as to prevent being called suspicious.

And you have the fucking audacity to blame the mislynch on me?

Yes. Because no-lynching is preferable to mislynching. I would have rather lynched Jackal. If not Jackal, a no-lynch. Because I wanted to avoid a mislynch.

My case is simple. In #92, you laid the foundation for a jump onto Ricastle if Fire was town. You were currently voting Fire. If you were town, you would not think that way; you would not have begun examining relational tells that assume you're incorrect. Especially not on page 4. On the other hand, scum!Ranger would know Fire is town and be looking for the next lynch. This post reveals a strong scum motivation and no town motivation, ergo scum.

Ooh, I can play the one-paragraph game, too.

I was asked by Ricastle to explain my read and answered. I said Ricastle was not a strong townread. Interactions between Firebringer and Ricastle suggested they would be unlikely scumbuddies, however, I was losing faith in my Firebringer scumread. As such, I was reevaluating my reads. Ricastle revealed himself to be town and I moved off of Firebringer near deadline without prompting, while there was a viable wagon. These show that I had no interest in mislynching them.

[Ranger]

1) You line up lynches.
2) I call you on lining up lynches.

And as I already said: you either have to be the most arrogant player EVER or flat-out just scum to think that I would

ever

change my stance just because you called me out on something.

The ACTUAL reason I backed off has been stated before: I was engaging Ricastle,

at Ricastle's request

, explaining myself and why I had that read...which, when Ricastle gave me reason to believe he was town, changed appropriately. This had absolutely no bearing on you calling me out, as it is something that would happen regardless. Because, duh, Ricastle made himself known as town; why wouldn't I change my read?
For Firebringer, my read was weakening, to the point where at deadline, when there was a wagon on Firebringer, I unvoted. This is because, contrary to your claim of me lining up mislynches, I was trying to get a good read on players, and I was doubting Firebringer as scum, strongly enough that I was willing to risk a no-lynch to avoid a Firebringer lynch. This goes far, far, FAR beyond the realm of logical scum play even

if

I were the type of player to ever be moved by someone calling me out. (I'm not. My reads are my own. Always have been, always will be.)

In #19, Ricastle was your scummiest read (although you say it's still not strong scum). In #85, you have him only one tier above Fire, fifth in a set of six tiers. You talk about having him in a specific order of lynches in #81. How is that not a scum read?

Because early-on, I was quite explicit that I

had

no scumreads. Ricastle was the least-town-looking player at the time, and later the second-least-town-looking-player, but not a true scumread.

Why would I note Ricastle as a developing scum read if I planned to kill him off that night?

The same exact reason you stated, "if I die": for the town credit such statements give.

Speaking of which, all your call for activity is awfully reminiscent of what I did in Blitz 7...as scum.

You're saying town players shouldn't be transparent like that?

Oh, town players should be transparent alright. But that's not what I was accusing you of. No, I said, rather specifically:

I noted the possible bussing because it was obviously going to be the next question ("BUT HOW COULD THEY BE PARTNERS WHEN JACKAL VOTED RANGER THEN IMMEDIATELY UNVOTED? WHO WOULD DO SUCH A THING?!?!?" ~ idiot townies everywhere).

...That this^ shows evidence of being preemptively defensive, something a town player is not. A town player will be transparent and respond, yes, but AFTER the question is asked, not before.

Clarity isn't the problem. Timing of it is.

I'd still much prefer Jackal, and had given intent. That's another reason to suspect Rob.

I had not thought of that, and that does make me feel better about you.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut...
VOTE: Jackal711.
While I'm pretty sure Rob is scum, realistically, I don't think I can get a lynch on him. We have the support on Jackal, though. Furthermore, Rob either has to eat his own words and not vote Jackal, or be forced back onto the Jackal wagon because it has more momentum than my own. Either case is a win in my mind.

[Ranger]

So we have a literally-claimed-scum player.
I have opinions on other players, but they can wait until next day, maybe two days from now. (A lynch today, and a no-lynch tomorrow to take us out of mylo and put us into lylo.) If I die, then drat, but if I live, then all the better to give them.

VOTE: Jacka711.

[Ranger]

VOTE: No Lynch.

[Ranger]

The thing that gives me the biggest pause about Ranger is that it seems like suicide to go into LyLo vs me and Fire.

Exactly.
absinthe was townreading me.
Not a good nightkill.
davesaz was townreading me.
Not a good nightkill.
Ricastle was townreading me.
Not a good nightkill.

Literally the only player nightkilled who wasn't townreading me is Soren, and that was mostly, "Well, between Rob and Ranger, Rob has the stronger argument".
Not a strong endorsement of me being scum.

Here's an idea.
Why don't we try a massclaim?
Jackal didn't flip a role that scum could fakeclaim.
So scum may not have a fakeclaim.
If you don't trust me enough for me to be last, then we can roll some dice or something.

[Ranger]

I do have a slight inclination, but I want to wait for the massclaim before I reveal it.

[Ranger]

I'd also like to point out in my defense: I was one of the strongest advocates for Jackal being scum, and Jackal voted me quite opportunistically, so that is further evidence I'm town if it matters.

[Ranger]

Your claim makes me very much want to hear from Rob before I claim.

[Ranger]

In particular, things in my defense: this page, you get to see me pushing Jackal almost before anyone else. (Ricastle and absinthe have me slightly beat.) 152/155 show more of it.

204 is Jackal putting me at L-1.
205 is me pointing out why this is a scum move. Continued in 206 and 207. Also, 208 and 210. (Mental note: while there are several key Rob13/Firebringer posts on many pages that make me lean towards one of you being scum increasingly strongly, this page contains one big HUGE tipoff. Another one happens on page ten. But...see below.) While starting the day on Jackal, I do get side-tracked, however, quite critically, when deadline was approaching, I made 271...in which, I switched back onto Jackal. With davesaz voting and Rob

almost

voting, we

almost

got a scum lynch and you cannot deny that I was the one who most strongly pushed that.

Of course, that's just defense from reading the thread. My readthrough has a dual-purpose: I'm becoming increasingly convinced of who is scum, but I want Rob to check in to be absolutely sure.

[Ranger]

Nightkills and play both make me think one option in particular, but again, I want Rob to come in here and post once more before I play my hand.

[Ranger]

What are you expecting Rob to claim exactly?

That's what I'm waiting on him for.

[Ranger]

Also you are the one we both want to vote for right now, I really prefer you claiming now.

That was before I laid out my defense.

I have done so now.

If both you and Rob still say I am the most suspicious, then I will lay out my cards. Claiming won't really be necessary, but I'll do it anyway.
However, if this is not the case...then I have no reason to claim first.

[Ranger]

Did you read this before posting?

I rarely proofread what I say, but have no need to. The poker metaphor is apt for the situation: I hold a good hand. I want to hear from Rob before putting all my chips on the table. I could go all-in now; I'm reasonably confident I'd be making the right choice. But I want to be absolutely sure. Lylo is absolutely the time to be cautious with voting, because one wrong vote, and it's over; scum win.

[Ranger]

Right, so I'm a nurse. I hinted at this many, many times.
I'm almost positive the second scum is Firebringer. I'm going to lay out the reasons in a moment.

[Ranger]

The one thing that confuses me is why Ranger was posturing to play "gotcha" with me. I literally guessed and posted the setup in a previous day, in direct response to her. She also knew about and was thinking of the setup at the time, based on her posting.

Because if you were scum and claimed nurse, then I'd know it was you.
Nurse is, after all, a likely role in the setup. So it would be reasonable for scum without a fakeclaim (my working assumption being that they don't have one) to claim nurse. If you had, then I would have been wrong on Firebringer, but you didn't. So I'm pretty sure it's Firebringer.

[Ranger]

I have good reason to trust your claim.

I figured that, with absinthe's miller claim, there were one of two possibilities: either we had a miller, a cop, a nurse (me), and a doctor, a viable combo if there's a scum counter (e.g. roleblocker), OR the title indicated that this was Role Madness Mountainous. I wasn't sure which it was, but either way, I was sure that given I am a nurse and absinthe claimed miller that absinthe would not be scum fakeclaiming miller. Thus, I had good reason to trust the claim.

I think I do, actually.
Ricastle is town.
absinthe may be equal to Ricastle, but Ricastle's town.

Here, I recognize Ricastle thinking I'm a cop, and claiming to be a deputy. I further file it away under the same logic as above, tipped further towards the Role Madness Mountainous.

And this is probably not going to help.

But I think we can actually break the game if we massclaim.

Yes I realize I'm the lead lynch candidate right now and proposing a massclaim doesn't do me any favors. I'll go first, but only if we get at least three players agreeing to the massclaim. I had a suspicion yesterday, but I wasn't sure. Now, I'm almost positive. I really, really think a massclaim will win us the game, and I want it to happen before I cast a vote.

Here, I show that I know the game is Role Madness Mountainous. This means, of course, that I have a worthless role.

For the record: still believe we could have broken the game, because, again--Jackal did not appear to have a safeclaim. Firebringer refused to claim when put at L-1, implying a lack of safeclaim there, too. (I'll cover why Firebringer's scum after I answer your questions, Rob.)

If the setup is what I think it is, it's misleading, not bastard.
I think that massclaim will help reveal who the mafia are.

Reinforced here.

I knew Ricastle was a deputy. (That's why Ricastle became my top-townread.) You know why I wouldn't kill them.

Here, I state that I knew Ricastle's role and why Ricastle became my top townread. I wouldn't have killed Ricastle because I knew the setup was Madness Mountainous, so killing for being a PR would be worthless, since everyone's a PR.

I knew Ricastle was a Deputy, yes. As in, a backup cop.
The reasons for this are obvious, though I'm not pointing them out right now for good reason.

The reasons for this were because I'm a backup doctor, and I knew what to look for when it came to 'crumbing.

Ricastle said he would fill my shoes, mistakenly believing I was a cop. As a nurse, I recognized that because my job as a nurse in a normal game would be to fill the shoes of a doctor.

Everyone's a PR, Rob.
I knew Ricastle was a harmless PR.
Deputies are no threat until a cop dies.
And I knew Ricastle was a Deputy.

Here I flat-out say that I know the game's setup is everyone being a PR, and Ricastle was a harmless PR. I knew that because I am a harmless PR.

Yes we do. If you were actually sincere in us thinking the same thing, you know as well as I do everyone's a PR.

PR does not mean "has an action". PR means "is not a vanilla townie". And by that definition, my statement is accurate.

There is more to it than that, of course, as you should know. But it does not invalidate my statement.

Here I further claim to be that type.

As indicated by the title: Madness (as in, role madness) Mountain (as in, Mountainous, no PRs).

I wasn't sure of this D1. I had a suspicion, about 60%, about it, but the other was that my role was real and so too was Ricastle's and so too was absinthe's.

Here I make it pretty clear that my role is similar to Ricastle's. Because I'm a nurse, to Ricastle's deputy.

I stated on D1 that I had reason to believe your claim. This made Ricastle, mistakenly, believe I was a cop. (My role led me to believe either a role madness mountainous game as laid out above, making your claim likely to come from town, or that there would be a cop in the game.) Ricastle then 'crumbed replacing me. The connection was easy to make from there, and when I realized Ricastle was 'crumbing town deputy, the method for which Ricastle was doing so was extremely sincere, leading me to believe that was Ricastle's role, exactly the same reason I townread you, only even stronger.

Here I flat-out say that I'm not a cop-related role, but the sincerity behind Ricastle's role made me know Ricastle was town because of my own role being similar and it being familiar.

35: I state my trust in absinthe's claim.
37: Ricastle indicates I'm town.
89: Ricastle states desire to one day be like me.
Me not understanding the statement (because I thought Ricastle was talking about play when we've never had a finished game), I post 92. (This is also, incidentally, the alleged lining-up-mislynches post.)
Ricastle answers in 96, and I realize what Ricastle is thinking, posting 112.

That's how I knew Ricastle was a deputy.
I knew Ricastle wasn't a threat.
So why would I kill Ricastle? It'd accomplish nothing but eliminating an ally of mine.

Elaborated on in here, too.

I was talking to Ricastle, because Ricastle wanted to know why I wasn't sure Ricastle was town. So I explained. Then, immediately following this, Ricastle gave a very strong hint as to being a deputy

Here I reinforce it.

Also, explicitly role madness, just to reinforce my point. Ricastle was a role, CN was a role, absinthe is a role, I'm also a role.

This is the last one where I say it.

[Ranger]

If Ranger was legit Nurse, wouldn't my role make the most sense though? So I don't see why Ranger was leaning on me being scum.

My reasons for thinking you're scum are not because of your claim. It's a good claim, and it's the main reason I'm not 100% convinced it's you as scum, but the evidence is strong, and as soon as I get the chance to post (as in, I don't need to actively answer questions and can have 10 minutes to build the case), I can show why.

[Ranger]

So...first off, we start with the nightkills...and the order they're in.

Ricastle's last non-CN scumread was Firebringer, in 133. Ricastle notes a good point in 121 about Jackal pushing the Firebringer wagon without joining it. (This becomes important later-on.)

Why this is not conclusive should be obvious: Ricastle was also scumreading Rob, stating that {Jackal, CN, Firebringer, Rob13} were his only lynch candidates. From my point of view, that means Ricastle--regardless of which of you is scum--correctly was on the trail of both scum.

However, further supporting evidence behind Firebringer being scum: Rob, you said you had figured out the setup. Since I had, I have little reason to doubt you did, too. So why did Ricastle, then, a person easily identified as being a deputy die? Ricastle's crumbs were obvious. Both of us knew the setup. What if the scumteam didn't? Jackal probably didn't pay much attention, and Firebringer has definitely claimed to have not known today, in his claim post where he said he was worthless.

This is not conclusive, though, so moving on, exhibit b: absinthe, the second nightkill. Like Ricastle, absinthe was a claimed PR. Why would Rob, or I, kill absinthe, when we both knew the setup? What if the scum didn't know, and thought absinthe's miller claim truly confirmed absinthe as being town? This, again, would point to Firebringer, yet there's more. Looking at absinthe's reads: 274 is suspicion on Soren for voting me, meaning absinthe townreads me. 262 is defending me, AND it is treating Rob as if he is town, implying that absinthe thinks Rob is town too. 198/199 reinforce this. In contrast, absinthe's only Firebringer interaction? 182.

Next we get the Soren nightkill. This is the first nightkill without Jackal influence. While Soren does vote me in one post, Soren multiple times states Firebringer suspicion: 233, 192 (191 is a Firebringer post), 172, 170, 123, 71, 42, and 12. In other words, the vast majority of Soren's iso is calling Firebringer scum.

Finally, we get the davesaz nightkill. This one's not conclusive: davesaz supported a Rob lynch as an option in 263, however, 280, 269, and 267 all seem to show davesaz is thinking Rob is town, as well as me for that matter: not someone to bring to lylo. 76 is a good post about Firebringer, too, and davesaz was likely to come back to it in lylo. His early interest in 44 made him particularly dangerous to Firebringer.

Keep in mind davesaz thought Soren was scum and Soren was the previous nightkill. He was going to re-evaluate given that. So who had the most to fear from him? Between you two, I don't see Rob fearing davesaz as much as I see Firebringer fearing him.

This is just half the case, though. Then we get into the actual thread. (Remember the pages I noted before as having key interactions? You're about to see them.)

[Ranger]

Some people express Soren concerns and immediately you're trying to start a counter-wagon there to save yourself? There's no way you aren't scum.

This continues to be as valid a point now as it was then.

Fire comes off as scummy to me.. though I don't like the fact that Soren's posts have been nothing but an attempt to push the Fire wagon.

At least one of those 2 is scum...

Jackal notes Firebringer as scum, but does not vote. 86 also remains just as true as it was when I posted it: Firebringer's reads were contradictory. He had me as town at first, and then without explanation, changed the read, as if the read was never real. This is reinforced when, IMMEDIATELY after having JUST called me scum, Firebringer again switches the read here:

Can you point out what we learn from lynching Ranger right now?

I can't see any clear associations so finding a scum partner from there is useless. I guess it sort of clears me and ricastle, but Ranger could be bussing either one of us.

Still think Fire's most likely to be scum but willing to entertain other options.

Again, Jackal mentions Firebringer as scum but does not pursue it.

Ranger, I have concerns about you.

But a Jackal711 lynch might be what I'd like to see today.

After absinthe posts this...guess which one Firebringer goes for?

Soren its hard to stay mad at you with that adorable avatar of yours.

VOTE: Ranger

How about this train guys?

Firebringer drops the Soren scumread for no reason and pursues a wagon on me.

If ranger is scum I can't see Davesaz being her teammate so I guess he would be cleared....
Weird cause I always think he is scum.
Perhaps Jackal? I mean thats a lazy association but meh.

Saying this in spite of
*There being a Jackal wagon
*Me expressing my suspicion on Jackal
*Jackal voting me. Admittedly, the latter two happen after the comment, but the position holds, because Firebringer doesn't unvote after Jackal votes.

Jackal's vote in 204 flies in the face of his previously-stated Firebringer suspicion. He dropped the Firebringer suspicion altogether.

However, the true tell is this:

Read 217. In that post, Firebringer defends Jackal

. He says, and I quote,

I don't know about that. Seems odd that Jackal voted and unvoted fast sure, but that seems more like a town tell than a scum one.

Rob, you asked Firebringer the question,

How does quickly backing down once you're pressured make him seem town?

Firebringer never answers.

Furthermore, let's look at what Firebringer posts next

.

Also I would much rather lynch Ranger, why aren't we doing that instead of Jackal?

This is 238. He is, once more, defending Jackal. This culminates in the end-of-day votecount:

Ranger: Firebringer, Rob13, Soren (3)
Jackal711: absinthe, Ranger, davesaz (3)

Firebringer was pushing me. Rob tried to switch from me (town) onto Jackal (scum). Yet Firebringer remained on me.

I may have missed a point or two, but this is why I think it's Firebringer.

[Ranger]

...And now I look like a total idiot.

[Ranger]

I really should have been very obviously not scum, though.
You were hardcore buddying Rob and townreading him. He let that happen. He brought you in, and you were scumreading me. He couldn't let players live that were thinking I was town, so I knew it was going to be a Firebringer-Rob13-Ranger lylo. I just thought that the order of the deaths would be telling, and Soren's death first threw me off.

[Ranger]

But for the record: I very much was not planning on voting tonight. While I did think you were scum, Firebringer, off of the above reasons, you'll note the post didn't end with a vote. That's because I was going to let you and Rob go over it.

[Ranger]

Ranger, if I voted Rob13.

Would you have lynched him?
Cause I made my case. Granted it wasn't a strong case.

Same thing: I wouldn't have voted you, I wouldn't have voted Rob. I would have spent every spare second I had available letting both sides present their arguments, give my own, let both sides respond to it, and then make my decision from there.

You actually rose some good points. Had you waited like I asked you to, I would have read them.

[Ranger]

I did also mention in the scum PT that I thought I could get Fire to quick-vote.

That was one reason that I was making my case on Firebringer, by the way. I was mostly doing that not to see Firebringer's reaction...but to observe

your

take on it. Specifically, I was looking for signs that you were scum who didn't care which of us was lynched...which was true. And I thought your reaction to my case would reveal that.