Scummies Ideas, Suggestions and Comments Thread

[Venmar]

then why not punish the lurkers.

I have been wanting this since forever.

sometimes good town play is to FOLLOW. I suppose the same cld be said for scum but for different reasons.

Because the point of the Scummies to is to give recognition and reward to players who have distinguished themselves throughout the year. It is not the Scummies job to punish or give recognition to players who have had poor or lackluster performances; we don't have a Scummy for "The Worst Mafia Performance" for a very good reason. We can't fix the fact that lurking and bad play is a fact of mafia games, so one of the things we can do is no longer give recognition to it.

[pirate mollie]

You say you'd be hard pressed to point to any single town player: that's fine. Not every game has a standout town performance. But BASICALLY every game has people on the town's side who don't pull their weight and in order for the award to have any value, we'd have to exclude people from receiving it and there's no fair/objective way to do that. 2014: Reckoning 3 Invitational. There wasn't really any cohesion. We all argued around each other and wound up obstructing each other's lynches and were only saved thanks to some night play, but there was very little total cohesion. We all won for it anyway.

"Best Town Performance" winds up being an arbitrary act of looking at if a town mislynched or not, and then how difficult the scumteam was to play against. Then the award gets handed out without regard for who sucked up space and didn't deserve it.

We're focusing on rewarding

good town play

. In any game, someone is going to look more right than others in the town. That's why we're choosing to focus on the consistency aspect of the award, which cannot be done in a single game performance.

reck I really understand where you guys are going with this I really do. pple are competitive as it is and this devalues teamwork and promotes pple centering the game around their egos and solitary play and we have enough of that.

can you guys at least have a "best team" category that is neither town nor scum? that seems like a fair compromise.

the site needs to promote more teamwork IMO. not pretend it can't exist.

[xRECKONERx]

No, we cannot.

You're missing the FUNDAMENTAL difference in these awards.

I will break down your post piece by piece so you can hopefully better understand where I feel you're not clear:

#1. Teamwork should be a factor in Best Mafia Catcher anyway.

And it has been, in the past. If a player is right but is incapable of getting people to rally around his cause or work with other people, no award. If a player is good at reads but causes a bunch of bullshit and terrible explosions when they enter a game due to their personality, they will not win. Teamwork is just

one

aspect of what makes a great town player. We're not going to specifically reward one aspect of town play, we're rewarding all of it.

#2. Adding/removing Scummies should not devalue teamwork in any way.

The Scummies do not have the power you're ascribing to them, though it would be great. And in fact, if people are

only

incentivized to work together

because they might win an award for it

, then I'd argue the existence of that award is toxic to the site and needs to be removed, anyway. You shouldn't work together as a team because of an award. You should work together as a team

because it's the way to win as town

. (See: removal of Best Replacement and Best IC)

#3. The Scummies are, as any awards are, a bit of an ego stroke.

That's not a negative thing. Winning a Scummie

should

be a boost to your ego. It

should

give you something to be proud of. It will cause people to look at you differently. It'll cause people to hold you to a higher standard. We're awarding very specific people for very specific accomplishments, and that will by and large affect their value/weight/opinion in games moving forward, just like an actor winning an Oscar will usually lead to higher billing in movies in the future.

#4. Town and Mafia alignments are not symmetrical, so the same qualities can't be applied to each award.

What makes a mafia "team" easier to judge is that we get access to their inner thoughts and secret plans. We get to see how they plot and scheme and calculate their moves. We

cannot

do the same thing with town. The game of mafia is not symmetrical, so there is a need to understand the differences between the two and what is award-worthy. When you're awarding scum play, it's on a much smaller scale. People may only pull scum once, and once they blow their gambit/strategy, it's out in the open and cannot be used again. However, town-hunting requires consistency and dedication. In any given game, there will be at least one person who looks more correct than the rest of the town. That's why we need to value

consistency

in town play -- and you gauge consistency by looking at several games over a longer timeline.

Nobody is pretending teamwork cannot exist. It's unfathomable to me that someone would get that from anything that has been said so far.

[pirate mollie]

@ reck

1. you and I know that is not how it works. pple will look at the single player and forget every1 else. how the hell is that even remotely fair. I think some of my best games are where I

followed

, not lead. mebbe I am craaaazy but I think collective cooperation ought to be recognized and appreciated.

2. promoting a single player above every1 else forces competition even if it happens unconsciously. sure, do away with scummies I am kewl with that it wld be much better than the environment that you are trying to create by changing the scummies distribution.

3. of course it is mr paragon of mafia catchers. I have been saying this for a long time. it is also why I want recognition for solid team play. <------ like this shld be the biggest thing that ought to be recognized.

4. mebbe I am an optimist but I generally think there is more than 1 person who is correct amongst town. it usually requires a collaborative approach.

[xRECKONERx]

1. You're incorrect. I've observed judging for years in Scummies. Teamwork and team play is a huge factor in judging outcomes. There's not really a way to argue this. You're just flat out incorrect. I've seen the evidence. You can ask basically anyone who has judged Paragon. You are just blowing smoke on this.

Cooperation is recognized and appreciated

.

2. Scummies do not promote competition for the award. I don't really think anyone

tries

to be Paragon by going rogue on a town. If they do, they pay the penalty for it. Again: teamwork is a huge factor in town play.

3. You're missing the point here so I'm going to drop this line of conversation.

4. It requires collaboration between a couple people, sure. Or night actions. Or setup. Or whatever. But it

devalues

the idea of getting an award if the first place if half the town doesn't deserve it and just gets it by default. What about people who win the award after replacing in on the last day? Should they be eligible? Should the person who replaced out be eligible? Should someone who got prodded and lurked by eligible? How do you propose we distinguish between all of those things? What you're pushing for is essentially a participation trophy and that's not really what the Scummies are about.

[Hippy Love]

1. You're incorrect. I've observed judging for years in Scummies. Teamwork and team play is a huge factor in judging outcomes. There's not really a way to argue this. You're just flat out incorrect. I've seen the evidence. You can ask basically anyone who has judged Paragon. You are just blowing smoke on this.

Cooperation is recognized and appreciated

.

2. Scummies do not promote competition for the award. I don't really think anyone

tries

to be Paragon by going rogue on a town. If they do, they pay the penalty for it. Again: teamwork is a huge factor in town play.

3. You're missing the point here so I'm going to drop this line of conversation.

4. It requires collaboration between a couple people, sure. Or night actions. Or setup. Or whatever. But it

devalues

the idea of getting an award if the first place if half the town doesn't deserve it and just gets it by default. What about people who win the award after replacing in on the last day? Should they be eligible? Should the person who replaced out be eligible? Should someone who got prodded and lurked by eligible? How do you propose we distinguish between all of those things? What you're pushing for is essentially a participation trophy and that's not really what the Scummies are about.

1. mebbe cos there were teamwork categories to judge, which you are trying to eliminate.

also fun exercise:

show me where teamwork is promoted on this site

.

2. now you are just being a troll.

3. sure

4. silly me I must be retarded! can I call myself retarded? is that allowed? I thought the scummies were about recognition of good play and removing a team effort award from the scummies is pretty much donald trumping the system into some vacuous survivor like episode that you merely want to spectate in.

I know that me disagreeing with you will probably make you mad and I am sorry about that! but I think you are wrong here.

[pirate mollie]

1. You're incorrect. I've observed judging for years in Scummies. Teamwork and team play is a huge factor in judging outcomes. There's not really a way to argue this. You're just flat out incorrect. I've seen the evidence. You can ask basically anyone who has judged Paragon. You are just blowing smoke on this.

Cooperation is recognized and appreciated

.

2. Scummies do not promote competition for the award. I don't really think anyone

tries

to be Paragon by going rogue on a town. If they do, they pay the penalty for it. Again: teamwork is a huge factor in town play.

3. You're missing the point here so I'm going to drop this line of conversation.

4. It requires collaboration between a couple people, sure. Or night actions. Or setup. Or whatever. But it

devalues

the idea of getting an award if the first place if half the town doesn't deserve it and just gets it by default. What about people who win the award after replacing in on the last day? Should they be eligible? Should the person who replaced out be eligible? Should someone who got prodded and lurked by eligible? How do you propose we distinguish between all of those things? What you're pushing for is essentially a participation trophy and that's not really what the Scummies are about.

1. mebbe cos there were teamwork categories to judge, which you are trying to eliminate.

also fun exercise:

show me where teamwork is promoted on this site

.

2. now you are just being a troll.

3. sure

4. silly me I must be retarded! can I call myself retarded? is that allowed? I thought the scummies were about recognition of good play and removing a team effort award from the scummies is pretty much donald trumping the system into some vacuous survivor like episode that you merely want to spectate in.

I know that me disagreeing with you will probably make you mad and I am sorry about that! but I think you are wrong here.

ffs this is me and me alone

[xRECKONERx]

1. mebbe cos there were teamwork categories to judge, which you are trying to eliminate.

1. You're incorrect. I've observed judging for years in Scummies. Teamwork and team play is a huge factor in judging outcomes. There's not really a way to argue this. You're just flat out incorrect. I've seen the evidence.

You can ask basically anyone who has judged Paragon.

You are just blowing smoke on this. Cooperation is recognized and appreciated.

You can ask basically anyone who has judged Paragon.

You are just blowing smoke on this. Cooperation is recognized and appreciated.

You can ask basically anyone who has judged Paragon.

Are you willfully ignoring context?

[xRECKONERx]

As for the rest: teamwork is promoted because this is mafia and teamwork is a part of mafia. We have "how to play" guides and the like, but I fail to see how it is the Scummies responsibility to promote a specific aspect of townplay. I am not trolling when I tell you

teamwork and cooperation is heavily considered when judging Paragon

. This is a fact. This isn't really up for debate. I'm unsure what you mean by "Donald Trumping the system" -- are you just using political buzzwords or is there actual context behind it?

[pirate mollie]

are you willfully ignoring that I am attempting to address the elimination of the team players categories?

cos it sort of seems like you are!

[xRECKONERx]

No, this entire conversation is about that.

You're saying it devalues team play. I'm telling you that is false, because team play is an aspect of good town performance. Should we have an award for "best town night action", "best town case maker", "best town leader", "best town follower", and "best town gambit" as well to cover all bases of town performance?

Still curious what "Donald Trumping" means.

[zoraster]

I think the point, mollie, is that you keep making arguments in favor of teamwork being considered for scummies. Reck is saying it is considered. But what you're REALLY after is you want TEAMS to be considered for scummies.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's meaningless that I hear "scum team" quite a bit, but I rarely hear "Town Team" but rather just "Town."

"Scum Team" comes up with 36736 matches. "Mafia Team" 3500. "Town Team" only 766.

[xRECKONERx]

1. you and I know that is not how it works. pple will look at the single player and forget every1 else. how the hell is that even remotely fair. I think some of my best games are where I followed , not lead. mebbe I am craaaazy but I think collective cooperation ought to be recognized and appreciated.

This seems to imply you're talking about a single player award, IE Paragon, and how teamwork should be counted towards town play. This context says you're saying "people will look at the single player who is the loudest and most visible and ignore the quieter players". You're also suggesting nobody considers teamwork when judging.

1. mebbe cos there were teamwork categories to judge, which you are trying to eliminate.

This, however, suggests people

did

consider teamwork when judging, but only for the teamwork categories, which doesn't match up with what we were discussing previously.

[pirate mollie]

As for the rest: teamwork is promoted because this is mafia and teamwork is a part of mafia. We have "how to play" guides and the like, but I fail to see how it is the Scummies responsibility to promote a specific aspect of townplay. I am not trolling when I tell you

teamwork and cooperation is heavily considered when judging Paragon

. This is a fact. This isn't really up for debate. I'm unsure what you mean by "Donald Trumping the system" -- are you just using political buzzwords or is there actual context behind it?

silly me I thought the scummies were about recognition, not promoting an aspect of any type of play.

okay then. by all means "promote" a single player over anybody else on their team. I bet the enjoyment of games will rise.

I guess an area where teamwork is promoted on this site doesn't exist huh.

eta: @ zoraster - plz don't beep boop this convo by looking up how many times certain words are used. I like you and I love reck but neither of you seem to have a pulse on the site or understand that what you are promoting is competition amongst town cos pple will want to stroke their ego. I wld rather the single player categories get eliminated before the team 1s do.

but y'all do whatever.

[zoraster]

Fair enough. Sorry you disagree.

[xRECKONERx]

As for the rest: teamwork is promoted because this is mafia and teamwork is a part of mafia. We have "how to play" guides and the like, but I fail to see how it is the Scummies responsibility to promote a specific aspect of townplay. I am not trolling when I tell you

teamwork and cooperation is heavily considered when judging Paragon

. This is a fact. This isn't really up for debate. I'm unsure what you mean by "Donald Trumping the system" -- are you just using political buzzwords or is there actual context behind it?

silly me I thought the scummies were about recognition, not promoting an aspect of any type of play.

They are about recognition and they're not about promoting a single aspect of play. That's why specifically focusing on

teamwork

as one aspect of play makes no sense from my perspective, and you have yet to address this. Why is teamwork the one you're so focused on over all the other ones?

okay then. by all means "promote" a single player over anybody else on their team. I bet the enjoyment of games will rise.

Individual awards have existed literally since the inception of the Scummies.

I guess an area where teamwork is promoted on this site doesn't exist huh.

First, still not the Scummies job to explain to people what is good mafia play.
Second, please show me an area on the site where the following are specifically promoted in the way you want teamwork promoted:

• Good night action selection
  
• Casemaking
  
• Leading town
  
• Following a leader
  
• Strategically hiding information
  
• Behavioral scumhunting

That's just a few of the things that go into considering who is a great town player.

@ zoraster - plz don't beep boop this convo by looking up how many times certain words are used.

It's very relevant. It shows that nobody really refers to a "town team" like they think of a "scum team". Town is very much individuals playing their own game with the information they have. The fact you cannot know someone's alignment as town without a special power role means "teaming up" is fairly risky and not necessarily advisable. Scum literally know each other's alignments, that's why we allowed a team nomination for mafia play.

I like you and I love reck but neither of you seem to have a pulse on the site

I know townblock voting is a pet strategy of yours, but it's just ONE strategy. I would wager the people who have access to the backstage area and the judging threads and can see the dialogue and know what goes into it probably have a better pulse on what the site values and holds up as pillars of good play, but that's just me.

or understand that what you are promoting is competition amongst town cos pple will want to stroke their ego.

Again: people who go rogue and stroke their ego by working against town and fail to cooperate DO NOT win Paragon and WILL NOT win Paragon under this change. That won't suddenly start happening.

You still haven't defined Donald Trumping, but if I had to guess, it would look something like "spooking people into rallying against a threat that isn't actually a threat using bombastic rhetoric".

[pirate mollie]

Fair enough. Sorry you disagree.

its okay!

neither of you play enough games to have to live with the results of your decisions!

[xRECKONERx]

If you really believe that, then that's fine. Come back here in a year and show us how awful this decision was for game culture and show me where people started rabidly screaming FUCK TEAMWORK I WANT A SCUMMIE and then we'll adjust. Until then, I'll choose to trust the data and evidence over fear tactics.

[chamber]

I wonder if there is room for some amount of middle ground with something like a Best Synergy award. Allow it to apply to some subset of a team that plays well without having to include everyone.

[zoraster]

It's also worth noting that you can become a judge and push more for rewarding teamwork as an individual, perhaps putting more weight on instances where a player decided to follow when it's the correct decision.

To the extent scummies provide incentive to change behavior, they do so on an individual basis. That is, I'm provided a reason to act a certain way personally. If the system is designed to reward teamwork and I care deeply about winning a scummy, I'll try to work with my team. If Paragon rewards teamwork, as it tends to, it still provides adequate reason for players to play as a team.

[xRECKONERx]

@chamber: That would require a lot of subjectivity and ruthlessness in choosing who to cut and who to include, and would result in fights over why someone should or shouldn't be included, which is NOT something we want to encourage.

[chamber]

If your assumption is that half the winning team is getting the award it might do that, I was thinking more in the range of 2-4 players.

[zoraster]

For what it's worth, "teamwork" as it applies to towns is a pretty fuzzy concept to me. Obviously sometimes you have to treat other (unconfirmed) town members in an adversarial fashion.

[pirate mollie]

I wonder if there is room for some amount of middle ground with something like a Best Synergy award. Allow it to apply to some subset of a team that plays well without having to include everyone.

if you cld find a middle ground I think that wld be fantastic.

I disagree with the elimination of the categories of team play. <---- I feel like team play is pretty integral to how the game is played regardless of alignment. no1 can do it on their own.

ffs I feel like I am speaking into the void.

[zoraster]

You're not speaking into the void (though personally your text speak makes it harder for me to parse what you're saying). I've listened. I understand what you're saying. It's not unreasonable. But it's not likely to change the decision in this case.