Do you believe in evolution?

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Do you believe in Evolution?

Yes, it is how we got to where we are now
125
78%
No, there is no chance of evolution
12
7%
In theory yes, but we didn't come from primates
17
11%
Unsure
7
4%
 
Total votes: 161

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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:32 am

Post by vollkan »

joost wrote: Theology is a science and I think that is where the evolution vs Creationism/ID should take place, in a theology classroom.
Theology is only a in the sense that astrology and leprechology are "sciences". That said, they should definitely be subjected to the rigors of the scientific method, if only to bring about their demise.

I do agree, though, that this "debate" only has a place in study of religion classes; not in science. Even in the context of religious classes, it should not be taught as "Well this is the science view and this is creationist/ID view and both are valid", because that effectively undermines the whole point of not teaching it as science.
joost wrote: The problem with this debate is that if there is God, anything's possible. God could have made the earth look like it was older than it actually is to fool poor biologists and geologists and physicists. A scientist however should not be bothered with this possibility. He should accept that what he sees is the truth and if he does not believe it he should find another job.
Occam's Razor. Entities should not be multiplied unless necessary.

By invoking a god, you immediately raise the spectre of who created god, thereby creating an endless procession of things. Usually theists and deists will then say either A: "God is a mystery" or B: "God always existed"

A is basically just an admission of complete bewilderment.
B is mildly more interesting. If you can accept a god always existing, why not the universe? The logic is self-defeating.

Anyway, if you say god did it, you are going to allow for absolutely anything. The whole ID thing is basically a backtracking from creationism to make things sit somewhat more easily with scientific developments, although ID is a load of s*** and its "science" is ludicrously wrong.
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:45 am

Post by Guardian »

Zindaras wrote:If evolution isn't true, then what is?
P || ¬P

Always true.
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:18 am

Post by Maz Medias »

Sarcastro wrote:GRAVITY IS A MYTH! It's only a theory! I choose not to believe that we are bound to the earth like mere apes! We have airplanes, ergo gravity is not real. I DON'T BELIEVE IN SCIENCE BECAUSE I DON'T FEEL LIKE IT. I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF EVIDENCE PLUS COMMON SENSE IS COMPLETELY WRONG, AS I CONSIDER MYSELF AMONG THE PREMIER PHYSICISTS IN THE WORLD! RAWR!
Quoted for fucking truthery.

PEG, vollkan, I was about to rumble in here righteously, but I see it's not necessary. :godlesssalute:
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:43 am

Post by joost »

Vollkan wrote:B is mildly more interesting. If you can accept a god always existing, why not the universe? The logic is self-defeating.
Because science has proven that the universe has not always existed?

Well what I'm trying to say is that if you can accept the Christian God or the God of Abraham, you can deny any and all scientific facts found on evolution or any other scientific topic conflicting with the bible. I do think that there's no way you can be an atheist and not believe in evolution.

Also I'd like to not that theology is a real science as it studies, besides the nature of God, religion which is definitely real.
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:13 am

Post by Maz Medias »

joost wrote:
Vollkan wrote:B is mildly more interesting. If you can accept a god always existing, why not the universe? The logic is self-defeating.
Because science has proven that the universe has not always existed?

Well what I'm trying to say is that if you can accept the Christian God or the God of Abraham, you can deny any and all scientific facts found on evolution or any other scientific topic conflicting with the bible. I do think that there's no way you can be an atheist and not believe in evolution.

Also I'd like to not that theology is a real science as it studies, besides the nature of God, religion which is definitely real.
I believe what you are looking for is sociology
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:29 am

Post by ChannelDelibird »

joost wrote:Also I'd like to not that theology is a real science as it studies, besides the nature of God, religion which is definitely real.
Sure, theology's a real field of study - but I don't think science is the right word for it. If theology is a science I'd argue that history is too.

(Don't say history is a science, because it's not)
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:41 am

Post by Save The Dragons »

Dani Banani wrote:but how have we 'observed' macroevolution?
Sorry, I think I meant microevolution. Basically the case where Darwinian Finches have been selected for different beak sizes depending on what is availible on the islands. If there's lots of big seeds one year, big beaked birds will flourish, but if there's a lot of small seeds hidden in the sand, birds with longer beaks will thrive.
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:58 am

Post by Nightson »

There's no actual distinction between microevolution and macroevolution, the terms are meaningless.
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:03 am

Post by Twomz »

ShadowLurker wrote:
Fritzler wrote:No its not on the curriculum. I had a couple of science professors talk about it anyways in 7th grade with his own time, but that was about it. My 9th grade teacher in biology never mentioned it, and after that I took 2 physics and 2 chemistry classes, and never really had an option to talk about it. I do know that a couple teachers talked about it anyways in class (mostly the AP/Honors teachers), and some didn't (mostly for the stupid people). Do people really teach evolution like, to every kid in other states?
Yes.

The only state I'm not sure about is Texas as they have their own textbook for everything and I dunno about the contents of their biology curriculum.
I was taught Evolution in Texas... AND WE TALKED ABOUT IT IN CHURCH TOO!!!

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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:27 am

Post by You Give Love A Bad Name »

pickemgenius wrote:Shit happens
QFT
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:01 pm

Post by Thesp »

vollkan wrote:Actually, I would "assert" it. There is no actual scientific evidence rebutting to "core concepts" of evolution. Any disagreement is primarily over minor subsidiary things (ie. whether or not genes are mere book-keepers or whether they are causative).

No respectable scientific doubt remains about the fact of evolution itself.
This is a very narrow viewpoint that's not terribly epistemologically virtuous.
Dani Banani wrote:interested in reconciling how evolution fits into a spiritual belief that the Bible is the word of God...
Saying that "the Bible is the word of God" is vague on so many levels. To see evolution and Genesis as mutually exclusive requires a very narrow understanding of what the Bible is in order to believe that the creation story in Genesis 1
must
be
literally
correct, lest we be unable to trust the sacred texts at all. (There are far too many that
do
share that narrow understanding, much to the chagrin of textual and literary criticism which has greatly advanced our understanding of Biblical texts in the last few decades.) It's particularly difficult to maintain a strict literal reading of both creation stories in Genesis, as there are "timing issues" with them. ;) (You won't see them if you read the NIV translation, as the translators there have worked that problem out with some "creative" translating of a verb tense.)

It's not terribly important if the world was created in precisely seven days (despite what some will tell you). What
is
important is that we were
deliberately
created by a God who was intimately involved with the creation of this world.
joost wrote:Theology is a science and I think that is where the evolution vs Creationism/ID should take place, in a theology classroom.

The problem with this debate is that if there is God, anything's possible. God could have made the earth look like it was older than it actually is to fool poor biologists and geologists and physicists. A scientist however should not be bothered with this possibility. He should accept that what he sees is the truth and if he does not believe it he should find another job.
This is a very narrow tailoring of each science and theology. Good theology and good science use the same epistemological principles, only one doesn't have as much control over its subject as the other. ;)
vollkan wrote:By invoking a god, you immediately raise the spectre of who created god, thereby creating an endless procession of things. Usually theists and deists will then say either A: "God is a mystery" or B: "God always existed"

A is basically just an admission of complete bewilderment.
B is mildly more interesting. If you can accept a god always existing, why not the universe? The logic is self-defeating.
I don't agree with your conclusion of "B" here, it is fairly difficult to imagine matter as infinite on the timeline. I must say that an infinite ground of being makes a lot more sense, whether I follow Martin Buber and Paul Tillich the whole way on that or not.
vollkan wrote:Anyway, if you say god did it, you are going to allow for absolutely anything.
A good philosopher does not take this track at all. Pick on me instead of a straw man. ;)
Twomz wrote:I was taught Evolution in Texas... AND WE TALKED ABOUT IT IN CHURCH TOO!!!

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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:45 pm

Post by Sarcastro »

You know, Thesp, I've always wanted to point out that that (first) quote in your signature is absolutely ridiculous. Faith has nothing to do with reason - while I'm not sure one could define it as reason's "opposite", it certainly does not rely on reason in any meaningful way. Faith is certainly opposed to reason in the sense that one needs to abandon reason to have faith in anything that there is any evidence against (such as the existence of supernatural beings, which your quote is presumably referring to).

Francis Collins may be a smart biologist, and I'm sure he does a great job of sticking to the scientific method in his research, but he's clearly decided that he doesn't actually need reason in the rest of his life, because his religious views are just as nonsensical and based on wishful thinking and blind faith as anyone's. What the hell does he mean by "revelation", by the way? Last time I checked, that was not a logical term.

Faith is nothing more than believing in something simply because you want it to be true, or because for some other reason you are unwilling to admit that you don't actually have any good reason to believe it. Why have faith in a particular brand of Christianity, out of all the ones that are out there? Why not have faith in Islam or Judaism or Hinduism or Shinto or Zoroastrianism or Pastafarianism or the Invisble Pink Unicorn or a goddamn teapot rotating around the sun? None of these beliefs are based on any sort of reason - they're all equally nonsensical. People are taught to believe and/or they desperately want to believe them, so they tone out all evidence against them or even the simple question of "What reason do I have to believe this?", instead bullheadedly insisting that they are true against all odds. Isn't it a bit odd that people tend to believe in the same religion as their parents and the other people in their community? I guess it's just a lucky coincidence that you were born into the correct religion, or at least the correct country. But then, I'm sure if you had been born in India or Saudi Arabia, you'd be just as devout a Christian, right?

The supernatural does not exist, but if you want to believe in it, I don't care. I just really hate that quote, because every time I see it I'm reminded of how irrational people are, to the point where they're willing to assert blatantly untrue things in order to lie to themselves that their beliefs make sense. It's a lie and an insult to science and reason.

I don't really have a problem with the other quote, though. :wink:

Also, I realise this is a bit off-topic and that it should probably have gone in that religion thread that was all the rage a while ago. Better late than never, though.
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:04 pm

Post by Stewie »

But if there's inconclusive proof, then it's a belief that it's right. The theory of evolution is usually used as an argument against things such as creationism as the origin of life. I feel that explaining the spark of life coming from somewhere is a very important part to the correctness of evolution.
No, the theory of evolution explains how we got from one organism to the biodiversity we see today. The fact that some people may use evolution against creationism doesn't mean that that's what evolution is about.
Also I will remember the "just because there isn't an answer yet" in future arguments with you.
As long as you don't say it out of context, I'm sure it won't come up.
Err, no, anything can be called a theory. I think a quasar is actually masses of living organisms emitting radio waves. Thats a theory.
No, that's a hypothesis. When you test your hypothesis, it becomes more likely to be true. When you test it enough, getting positive results, the hypothesis becomes a theory, and gets accepted as truth. It's important, however, to mention that a hypothesis can never be proved to be true, only more likely to be true. Evolution has a bast body of evidence supporting it, which leads scientists to accept it as fact.

Adaptation does not=evolution though I think. The organism may change slightly to adapt, but it's never mutating into an entirely different virus or such. Just a different strain, right?

Adaptation is part of evolution. The changes are usually slight, as you said. However, over millions of years, several slight changes become significant; so much that if you were to go back in time and get the species before the first mutation and tried to mate it with the current form, there would be no viable offspring. Therefore, they would be two different species. Sometimes, a species gets separated into two populations which live in different geographical areas. The two populations adapt to two different environments, and that's when the biodiversity expands (a two or more species created from one). My bacteria example was only to show that change does occur.
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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:05 pm

Post by vollkan »

Maz wrote: PEG, vollkan, I was about to rumble in here righteously, but I see it's not necessary. :godlesssalute:
:returngodlesssalute:
Joost wrote: Because science has proven that the universe has not always existed?
Well, no, there is still a relatively strong opinion that it may have always existed.

My point is that if you say "Universe needs cause, ergo God" then why not "God needs cause, ergo SuperGod" or something to that effect? Invoking an entity to explain the existence of another immediately raises the question of the origins of the creative entity. It is not an answer because it simply replaces one question with another.
joost wrote: Also I'd like to not that theology is a real science as it studies, besides the nature of God, religion which is definitely real.
Yes, but is no different to studying astrology or anything like that. The astrology subculture is definitely real (regrettably). That doesn't make their new age bulls*** a science. As Maz says, it is a sociology.

That said, the God theory should be treated as a scientific hypothesis for the purposes of scrutiny and rejection.
Thesp wrote: Saying that "the Bible is the word of God" is vague on so many levels. To see evolution and Genesis as mutually exclusive requires a very narrow understanding of what the Bible is in order to believe that the creation story in Genesis 1 must be literally correct, lest we be unable to trust the sacred texts at all. (There are far too many that do share that narrow understanding, much to the chagrin of textual and literary criticism which has greatly advanced our understanding of Biblical texts in the last few decades.) It's particularly difficult to maintain a strict literal reading of both creation stories in Genesis, as there are "timing issues" with them. Wink (You won't see them if you read the NIV translation, as the translators there have worked that problem out with some "creative" translating of a verb tense.)

It's not terribly important if the world was created in precisely seven days (despite what some will tell you). What is important is that we were deliberately created by a God who was intimately involved with the creation of this world.
Ah, the wonders of cherry-picking contextualism.

I suppose that it is not terribly important that Genesis is right, but it is terribly important that Jesus was resurrected?

This whole "taking the Bible as symbolic" thing is just back-pedalling from the bits that modern science has disproved.
Thesp wrote: This is a very narrow tailoring of each science and theology. Good theology and good science use the same epistemological principles, only one doesn't have as much control over its subject as the other.
In the same way I can make a really thorough epistemological study of different beliefs regarding leprechauns.
Thesp wrote: I don't agree with your conclusion of "B" here, it is fairly difficult to imagine matter as infinite on the timeline. I must say that an infinite ground of being makes a lot more sense, whether I follow Martin Buber and Paul Tillich the whole way on that or not.
But the God model is completely unnecessary except to achieve an answer in the absence of a clear one from science.

Let's suppose that, tomorrow, science proves that matter can arise from nothingness by some fantastic new process.

What then? The origin of the universe has a clear explanation and god is unnecessary. The religious response will be to say that god "designed this process to occur" or something equally as superfluous.

God is not an explanation, it is an answer to one question that immediately invokes more questions. There is no scientific basis for asserting god other than the current lack of any definitive alternative.
Sarcastro wrote: You know, Thesp, I've always wanted to point out that that (first) quote in your signature is absolutely ridiculous. Faith has nothing to do with reason - while I'm not sure one could define it as reason's "opposite", it certainly does not rely on reason in any meaningful way. Faith is certainly opposed to reason in the sense that one needs to abandon reason to have faith in anything that there is any evidence against (such as the existence of supernatural beings, which your quote is presumably referring to).
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Sarcastro wrote: What the hell does he mean by "revelation", by the way? Last time I checked, that was not a logical term.
"revelation" usually either means truth through the Bible or that warm and fuzzy "personal experience" palaver.
Sarcastro wrote: Also, I realise this is a bit off-topic and that it should probably have gone in that religion thread that was all the rage a while ago. Better late than never, though.
It's the inevitable result of any thread on evolution.
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:09 pm

Post by Sarcastro »

I know the definition of "revelation", I just don't really understand how it makes any sense in the context of that quote. How can revelation be added to reason to make faith? It's complete nonsense.
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:56 pm

Post by Thesp »

Sarcastro wrote:Faith is certainly opposed to reason in the sense that one needs to abandon reason to have faith in anything that there is any evidence against (such as the existence of supernatural beings, which your quote is presumably referring to).
This is a terrible misconception, which is seeded by Soren Kierkegaard and promulgated by fundamentalists who wrongly fight to subjugate rationality to their limited understanding of religious revelation. If you believe in something
contra
rationality, it's not "faith", it's lunacy. Faith is, in some real sense, acknowledging you don't have total control of the phenomena you have experienced and believe.
Sarcastro wrote:What the hell does he mean by "revelation", by the way? Last time I checked, that was not a logical term.
Revelation is a crucial part of epistemology (including science), as it is the
experience of phenomena
- in the context Collins speaks of, religious phenomena. (After all, "revelation" carries a context of something being "revealed" to us.) Suppose God speaks to me in a burning bush which is not consumed by the fire. I now have the "revelation", an experience of phenomena which I am not able to reproduce and test. What do I do with this information? I would be a poor scientist to discard it entirely, just as I would be a poor scientist to immediately and wholly believe that the bush is God.
Sarcastro wrote:Faith is nothing more than believing in something simply because you want it to be true, or because for some other reason you are unwilling to admit that you don't actually have any good reason to believe it.
I'm not entirely sure why you think it's important to construe faith this way. I sense much anger in you, young Skywalker.
vollkan, re: theology wrote:Yes, but is no different to studying astrology or anything like that.
I'm not sure where you come up with this conclusion. I suspect it comes from nonfamiliarity with the subject matter.
vollkan wrote:That said, the God theory should be treated as a scientific hypothesis for the purposes of scrutiny and rejection.
I agree, though with the "...and rejection" you've added at the end, I suspect you've come to your conclusion before examining evidence. That's not very scientifically or epistemically virtuous of you. ;)
vollkan wrote:I suppose that it is not terribly important that Genesis is right, but it is terribly important that Jesus was resurrected?
Yes, it is. If it was to be shown that Jesus was not actually resurrected from the dead, it would be a 100% defeater for Christian faith.
vollkan wrote:This whole "taking the Bible as symbolic" thing is just back-pedalling from the bits that modern science has disproved.
This is entirely unfair. When you examine text, you consider the source, literary context,
et cetera
. It is unfair of you to say that I
must
rely on a poor understanding of the tradition's texts because people have used it wrong in the past. It is somewhat dishonest of you to argue like this - I won't follow you here.
vollkan wrote:
Thesp wrote:This is a very narrow tailoring of each science and theology. Good theology and good science use the same epistemological principles, only one doesn't have as much control over its subject as the other.
In the same way I can make a really thorough epistemological study of different beliefs regarding leprechauns.
I'm not looking to study the
beliefs
- I'm looking to study the subject (in this case, God), as any good scientist would.[/strawman dodge]
vollkan wrote:But the God model is completely unnecessary except to achieve an answer in the absence of a clear one from science.
Two things:
Stop this false dichotomy of God and science. It's crap. Science is not here to replace God, nor is God trying to do away with science (despite some of His misguided followers that would).

I disagree with you here on the "God model" being "completely unnecessary...". There are numerous phenomena which have been experienced throughout history (and for me, personally in my life) which point to a being who has created and is still involved with His creation. And I'm not talking about, "oh, I believe in God, and good stuff happened, so God must be blessing me!" stuff. I'm talking honest-to-goodness phenomenal experience of God.
vollkan wrote:"revelation" usually either means truth through the Bible or that warm and fuzzy "personal experience" palaver.
Revelation ought not be limited to the Bible (certainly God hasn't stopped talking!), nor in the context of this discussion should revelation be necessarily related to God. (After all, light was first revealed to you when you left your mother's womb, the nature of the center of an atom was revealed to Rutherford by his experiments, etc.) It is true, however, that too often Christians do limit the meaning of "revelation" to be "what the Bible says", but this is hopelessly shortsighted.
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:00 pm

Post by Thesp »

Part of what I'm trying to convey is that I think the reactionary Christians who see science as a threat and argue against rationality are severely misguided. I hope I'm showing that - I don't want to keep arguing over "blind faith", because I agree with you that blind faith is problematic, to say the least. I don't see, however, why religious phenomena must be barred from scientific discussion, when in fact any good scientist happily takes all the data available to him when formulating his understandings of how the world works, even if those phenomena don't easily fit the model he holds. (Thomas Kuhn thinks those are the exciting times in science - when there are things that don't quite fit the mold exactly, and we must figure out what to do with that data!)
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:19 pm

Post by Sarcastro »

Thesp wrote:
Sarcastro wrote:Faith is certainly opposed to reason in the sense that one needs to abandon reason to have faith in anything that there is any evidence against (such as the existence of supernatural beings, which your quote is presumably referring to).
This is a terrible misconception, which is seeded by Soren Kierkegaard and promulgated by fundamentalists who wrongly fight to subjugate rationality to their limited understanding of religious revelation. If you believe in something
contra
rationality, it's not "faith", it's lunacy. Faith is, in some real sense, acknowledging you don't have total control of the phenomena you have experienced and believe.
Sorry, but that's a different definition of faith from the one I'm used to. I'm using a definition along the lines of "firm belief in something for which there is no proof", of which the Christian God or any other supernatural being is a great example. There's plenty of reason to believe that the supernatural does not exist, and none that it does. To me, that makes faith pretty irrational.
Thesp wrote:
Sarcastro wrote:What the hell does he mean by "revelation", by the way? Last time I checked, that was not a logical term.
Revelation is a crucial part of epistemology (including science), as it is the
experience of phenomena
- in the context Collins speaks of, religious phenomena. (After all, "revelation" carries a context of something being "revealed" to us.) Suppose God speaks to me in a burning bush which is not consumed by the fire. I now have the "revelation", an experience of phenomena which I am not able to reproduce and test. What do I do with this information? I would be a poor scientist to discard it entirely, just as I would be a poor scientist to immediately and wholly believe that the bush is God.
I think there's a clear difference between the generic use of the word "revelation" and the religious use, even if they're obviously related. The religious use of revelation is unscientific - it doesn't depend upon reason but upon subjective experience. If I see a burning bush that isn't consumed by the fire, yes, I might be tempted to draw a lot of conclusions from that, and I wouldn't want to discard it entirely. But should I theoretically discard it entirely? If I can't repeat it, and if the evidence shows me that it's impossible that such a thing could happen, then yes, I should. One cannot base one's understanding of the world on a unconfirmable miracle.

Of course, that nicely avoids the more important point, which is that miracles never have and never will happen (using the traditional "impossible happening" definition, not the lame "everything kind of nice" definition). Now, I obviously can't prove that they've never happened, but the burden of proof is on you and our entire understanding of the world is pretty good evidence against you, so I suppose that's where faith comes in.

In any case, I'm still not sure where Collins' use of the world "revelation" fits in here. Is he saying that to have faith, one must have seen a miracle? I assume not, but I don't really see a better way of interpreting it, if he thinks that revelation is a necessary component of faith.
Thesp wrote:
Sarcastro wrote:Faith is nothing more than believing in something simply because you want it to be true, or because for some other reason you are unwilling to admit that you don't actually have any good reason to believe it.
I'm not entirely sure why you think it's important to construe faith this way. I sense much anger in you, young Skywalker.
I think it's important to make it clear that that's all faith is. People like to talk about it as if it's some admirable thing to "have faith", but I don't understand why irrationality is considered a virtue. To me, the concept of faith sums up pretty well a lot of what is wrong with people in general. There are just so many horrible things in the world that come from this sort of blind belief (not just in religion, but in other things people blindly believe).

And yeah, I was a bit angry, because I tend to get angry when I talk about religion. I admit that parts of my post were kind of rude, but I'm glad you responded civilly, which is a lot better than most people would do. I did notice that you completely avoided my questions about why you have faith in the things you have faith in, though.
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:26 pm

Post by vollkan »

Thesp wrote: This is a terrible misconception, which is seeded by Soren Kierkegaard and promulgated by fundamentalists who wrongly fight to subjugate rationality to their limited understanding of religious revelation. If you believe in something contra rationality, it's not "faith", it's lunacy. Faith is, in some real sense, acknowledging you don't have total control of the phenomena you have experienced and believe.
No, faith is belief despite or in spite of evidence. Acknowledging that you don't have total control over the phenoma has nothing to do with anything.
Thesp wrote: Revelation is a crucial part of epistemology (including science), as it is the experience of phenomena - in the context Collins speaks of, religious phenomena. (After all, "revelation" carries a context of something being "revealed" to us.) Suppose God speaks to me in a burning bush which is not consumed by the fire. I now have the "revelation", an experience of phenomena which I am not able to reproduce and test. What do I do with this information? I would be a poor scientist to discard it entirely, just as I would be a poor scientist to immediately and wholly believe that the bush is God.
Sarcastro has said everything I would say, but I would like to know what you actually think the appropriate use of revelation is. You have stated what would be poor, but what do you see as "correct"?
Thesp wrote: I'm not looking to study the beliefs - I'm looking to study the subject (in this case, God), as any good scientist would.[/strawman dodge]
Yes, in the same way I could conduct a really good scientific study of
anything
. Being able to study theories of something has no bearing on its existence.
Thesp wrote: I agree, though with the "...and rejection" you've added at the end, I suspect you've come to your conclusion before examining evidence. That's not very scientifically or epistemically virtuous of you.
No. By "..and rejection" I meant that if we are to study god with science, then we are able to reject god with science. I was referring to that school of thought of "God is beyond scientific explanation". I realise you don't consider yourself part of that group, though, so this was not a strawman against you.
Thesp wrote: I disagree with you here on the "God model" being "completely unnecessary...". There are numerous phenomena which have been experienced throughout history (and for me, personally in my life) which point to a being who has created and is still involved with His creation. And I'm not talking about, "oh, I believe in God, and good stuff happened, so God must be blessing me!" stuff. I'm talking honest-to-goodness phenomenal experience of God.
Care to give any examples of these phenomena?

Also, I don't think your personal experience can be used to argue anything. The human mind is a wonderful and very powerful thing.
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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:47 pm

Post by Primate »

HackerHuck wrote:Why is option three even on there? Humans are primates.
especially me
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:56 pm

Post by Primate »

Also, disproving evolution does not prove creationism (not that I think anyone in this thread has disproved it even remotely satisfactorily)
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:26 am

Post by Adele »

Dani Banani:
I find your questions very worthwhile. I consider myself to have a reasonable grasp on evolution (it’s a vast topic) and a good grasp of the fundamentals of it, and a great grasp of the philosophical and theological ramifications.

This is quite an extended (and badly structured) reply to your questions. It’s intended to be informative, rather than argumentative, so I’d be grateful if those who disbelieve in evolution refrained from using it in their counterarguments. It covers an intended illumination of the process of evolution, the fundamental logic behind it, and the theological ramifications. It excludes the breadth and depth of evidence in favour of evolution and the counterarguments presented by the more fundamentalist religious, some of which are, in my own opinion, breathtakingly spurious.

I’d like to begin by asking you to consider the following:


1. If your parents have a particular, heritable trait, then you are more likely to have it than your peers
2. If that trait assists in survival or breeding, then you are more likely than your peers to have and raise many children who will inherit that trait
3. If that trait is disadvantageous to survival or breeding, you are less likely than your peers to have and raise many children who will inherit that trait
4. Therefore, those genes that cause traits that are advantageous to survival and breeding will become more common in each generation than its predecessor and those that cause disadvantageous traits will become less common

5. Over time, the population will accumulate advantageous-trait genes in a number of different areas; the correct height, intelligence, weight, social skills – always bearing in mind that extremes of a positive trait tend to have disadvantages (very tall people need more nutrition and may starve in a famine; also, they may be in worse danger of injury, so height will reach an equilibrium position; which is why, even though it’s way cool to be tall, there are no 10-foot men)

OK, so do me a favour now, stop and think for a minute about the claims I make above.

Given the above – I hope you get it – can you imagine a population
not
becoming “better adapted” over time?

OK. When we determined that the universe was expanding, and that there was no plausible reason that the universe should switch between expanding and contracting, we worked backwards and thought “huh. At some point, it must have been
well
tiny”

Similarly, working backwards, doesn’t it seem
inevitable
that our distant, distant ancestors were slower, more foolish, and weaker (The Neg-lympics!)?

OK.

How do new species arise? This is complex, and I’ve put together the following… well, fable, I suppose.
Imagine a land with about forty tribes (or herds) of a particular species. At the beginning of this tale, there is a mixture of slowish, thoughtful and of fastish, aggressive individuals. All the tribes on the island periodically intermingle. Then one day a river or iceberg or whatever appears and the east and west are separated (for simplicity’s sake).
In one tribe, a disease wipes much of the population. It happens to take most of the slower, more thoughtful individuals and leave the faster, more aggressive ones more relatively intact. This tribe becomes unusually good hunters. When mingling and interbreeding with nearby tribes on the east side of the island, over a hundred generations this inclination to be faster and more aggressive becomes commoner, as more are successful in this way, and so it becomes the norm as people move towards a carnivorous diet.
At the same time, on the west side of the island (btw I swear to god this isn’t a political commentary), a tribe begins to specialise in farming. They make a particular technological advance such that they can produce more through farming than any have before. The faster, more aggressive members cannot compete with the slower more thoughtful ones at farming, and even when they hunt, they do not provide so well. So the tribe (and by extension, the surrounding tribes) begins to tend more towards slowness and thoughtfulness and move towards an omnivorous diet.
Now, the east side is tending more strongly over another hundred or so generations towards carnivorousness. As people with sharper teeth become better eaters, so over generations people develop sharper teeth. As people with sleek, runners bodies catch more food, so over generations people develop sleeker, faster bodies. As the capacity to digest vegetation becomes redundant, less bodily resources tend to be dedicated to this and people begin to lose the
ability
to digest vegetation.
Meanwhile on the west side teeth become suited to a vegetarian diet, bodies become stolid and hefty, but they maintain the ability to eat meat although it’s not a primary source of food, as it is occasionally necessary during famines or in winter.
So, geology being what it is and all, one day the big MacGuffin separating the Westers and the Easters vanishes. Ooh, that tricksy geology. The Westers and Easters meet and mingle. There is experimentation with breeding between the tribes. While the genetics have not yet changed to the extent that the two sides cannot interbreed, there is a higher chance of miscarriage. That, however, isn’t the biggest problem. When the child was born of members of two tribes, obviously he’d be raised by his mother. So women in the West tribes would raise children who’d grow sick on vegetables, while women in the East would be mystified as to how to get their pudgy, slow-moving sons and daughters up to speed. It was just no good. Over time, inclination to breed with those from the other side of the island was an unsuccessful strategy, and so became rare, and became obsolete.
Two hundred generations on (and obviously I’m no expert, but probably more than 2 hundred) and there have been changes to the genetic make-up of the westers and easters. These include changes to the reproductive system – interbreeding is no longer even possible.

OK. So, it’s a crude demonstration, and an even cruder claim, but imagine for a moment that the tribes at the
beginning
of the story resemble Labradors, and the Easters at the end are like Lions and the Westers like Horses. It wouldn’t take four hundred generations but tens or hundreds of thousands, and obviously it wouldn’t necessarily take the above course or anything. But I hope it goes some way to both explaining how species might split off, and also how
arbitrary
the whole thing can be – it really is a ridiculous fluke that any species developed the way it did; including humans. There’s nothing “special” or “pinnacle-ish” about us. Nor does evolution work towards a goal; it’s a matter of who survives each generation, of cumulative changes, like the water in a river doesn’t plan to follow the course of the river, but goes where it’s pulled by all that influences it. If you catch my meaning.

I want to be clear on the matter of where new species come from.
In the Easter/wester example above, at no point is one generation a different species than the one before. However, the neither the end-point easters nor the westers could, if they went back in time, breed with their so-distant ancestors. The analogy I’m going to choose to call on is that of languages. Where do new languages come from? Languages change over time until they are entirely different than they once were and from other languages with the same root. At no point is what people speak an entirely different language than the day before, or year or decade or even century before. Yet, from Latin two thousand-odd years ago we’ve generated about a dozen distinct languages (species) each with several dialects within (races / breeds). Of course, different languages can merge, while different species cannot. That’s the relevant distinction. If you can breed with someone, you’re the same species. If not, you aren’t.

Now, macro-evolution is the process – to date and ongoing – whereby all species are adapted by their surroundings in a much more complicated way. There are splits and extinctions and migrations and all sorts going on all the time.
Why did the appendix shrink when it became pointless? Because it takes energy to support a full-size appendix. Energy that, when chased by a predator, when seriously ill, when experiencing a famine, when pregnant, has better uses elsewhere. People with smaller appendixes stood a better chance, so each generation had a smaller average appendix than the generation before.

I’d also like to state for the record that the separation of man into different areas round the globe was extremely recent, in evolutionary timescales, and the differences between races are very much skin-deep: Colour is the most noticeable, with vulnerabilities to certain illnesses varying, height, and dietary intake having a minor effect (relative commonness of lactose intolerance among Asians, for example). They’re shallow levels of differences; we’re fundamentally the same.

So, what does this mean for religion? Well, it has few options available to it. The problem is twofold: the beauty of and the evidence in support of evolution, and the biblical story of the Garden of Eden.

What was meant by the story of the Garden of Eden, of Adam and Eve and all that jazz? If it’s a claim that that’s how God actually made all life, then there’s a strict opposition between the claims of the bible and the claims of the scientific community. You gotta choose between God and logic. But it’s not so simple as that. Jesus spoke in parables; he never claimed that there ever actually
were
any good Samaritans.
Genesis doesn’t have a preamble. What if it’s not there to explain
how
God created life, but why? To explain why things are the way they are; why women suffer in childbirth, why men must work for food, why serpents lack legs: because God willed it so, because all these beings have done wrong in some way. Heck, if life on earth is separate from the kingdom of Heaven, and sin constitutes separateness from God, isn’t sin unavoidable? So this could be a parable of God’s decision to have a land that is not blessed by his continued presence, and which will have sin,
but
that he still reserves the right to call the shots as he sees fit.
Or it could be a simple origin myth, like those found in Greek and Norse mythology. Heck, read Just So stories and the early parts of Genesis start to make you feel very uncomfortable. Humans tell stories. It’s what we do. What if somebody wrote an untrue story about the origins of man that somehow – completely innocently – got folded in to the Book Of Truth, the Holy Bible of God? Priests aren’t all-knowing, you know – we can tell by looking at those that we have today – maybe one was once fooled by a conman.
Maybe God created life through evolution. I mean, he’s not just very, very smart – he’s omniscient. Stands to reason he could guide the seemingly-random forces of evolution to the result he wanted. A nudge here, an extinction there… and all so that we would arise. Pretty flattering, no? And, of course, it’s pretty complicated and confusing, and the people 3000 BC weren’t ready for it, so he explained it in simpler terms.

Terry Pratchett coined the term “Lies to Children”. You start off telling them that atoms are like really, reeeeelly small soccer balls because it’s simple. Then you expand – well electrons whiz around the nucleus following set paths – like an orbital path. Then, when they study at a more advanced stage, you tell them, well, we
think
the electron isn’t
actually
anywhere, but have a potential, a likelihood of being in certain places.

In this scenario, yes, Genesis would be “Lies to Primitive Humans” but the point is not all lies are given with the purpose of deceiving; Lies to Children are given with the intention of explaining as best you can to a limited person. Not exactly False Witness.

So, the most popular ways of dealing with evolution by religious folk:
1. Evolution is a lie propagated by Satan / Evil Scientists / Well-meaning but wrong scientists, and the Bible is the true, 100%-accurate Word Of God
2. God guided evolution, and the Story of the Garden of Eden was never meant to be taken so literally
3. God guided evolution, and the Bible, while inspired by well-intentioned and holy men, contains some errors
4. God’s not like people. It’s a force, a fundamental spirit throughout the universe. Jesus was a good man who presented good morals to live by; by observing the good bits of the bible and ignoring the bad, one may assemble a worthwhile ethic to live by. Best not to get hung up on what exactly is “true” and all that, but humankind evolved within the Universe (kind of pantheism)
5. Evolution just happened; doesn’t need a mastermind, it’s self-sustaining and don’t multiply entities without necessities please. God didn’t decide it. While the Bible contains some truth, so does “The Time Traveller’s Wife” – it’s essentially a work of fiction, a result of the delusions, fantasies and lies of “Holy Men” through the ages. There is no God.

In case you’re curious, I come down in box 5. If you’ve been raised a creationist, I’d expect you to be most comfortable with box 2, possibly box 3. You must understand, I grew up not even hearing of creationism. Where I come from, if you’re religious you pretty much believe 2 or 3 (or both, you know). If you’re spiritual you believe 4 and if you’re an atheist, strong or weak, you’d tick box 5 if you had to pick any (because these boxes are crude descriptors).

I hope that this has illuminated the scientific beauty and underlying systems of evolution (I’ve opted to exclude descriptions of how the theory has changed and been supported time and again by evidence, not to mention the scientific enquiry engaged in with the presumption of evolution which keeps being successful as you would only expect it to if evolution is true). I hope I’ve also adequately explained why this doesn’t necessarily explode peoples’ faiths, although those who believed in God merely because “how else did we get here?” are freed from belief by the “theory” of evolution. If you believe in a God of the Gaps – a kind of Duct-tape to cover over all the stuff you don’t understand – then evolution reduces your need for God. However, evolution only actually
contradicts
fundamentalism. There are other ways to believe, such that evolution is a happy coexister to God.

I’d like to wind up, for those of you who are familiar with evolution and found this post at best dull, at worst and naïve misstatement and a “lie to children” itself, with this, from a previous co-worker of mine:

Joe: If evolution is true, then how come chimpanzees stopped evolving?
Me: [stunned silence]
Joe: [triumphantly] See, you can’t answer!
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Post Post #72 (ISO) » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:59 am

Post by The Central Scrutinizer »

Mr Stoofer wrote:Is there any country in the world, other than the United States, where this is a topic of debate?
Quoted for why I occasionally want to move.

And yes, I believe in evolution. The discovery of modern genetics in the 1930's proved that the diversity of species is caused by biological evolution of the genome. The mechanisms are certainly up for debate, but that it happened is basically an observable fact.
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Post Post #73 (ISO) » Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:38 am

Post by Save The Dragons »

Nightson wrote:There's no actual distinction between microevolution and macroevolution, the terms are meaningless.
The term is not important, it's the actual phenomenon behind it.
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Post Post #74 (ISO) » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:36 pm

Post by vollkan »

Great post Adele. Well done on putting a simple explanation out there.

I just have some thoughts on this bit:
Adele wrote: So, the most popular ways of dealing with evolution by religious folk:
1. Evolution is a lie propagated by Satan / Evil Scientists / Well-meaning but wrong scientists, and the Bible is the true, 100%-accurate Word Of God
2. God guided evolution, and the Story of the Garden of Eden was never meant to be taken so literally
3. God guided evolution, and the Bible, while inspired by well-intentioned and holy men, contains some errors
4. God’s not like people. It’s a force, a fundamental spirit throughout the universe. Jesus was a good man who presented good morals to live by; by observing the good bits of the bible and ignoring the bad, one may assemble a worthwhile ethic to live by. Best not to get hung up on what exactly is “true” and all that, but humankind evolved within the Universe (kind of pantheism)
5. Evolution just happened; doesn’t need a mastermind, it’s self-sustaining and don’t multiply entities without necessities please. God didn’t decide it. While the Bible contains some truth, so does “The Time Traveller’s Wife” – it’s essentially a work of fiction, a result of the delusions, fantasies and lies of “Holy Men” through the ages. There is no God.

In case you’re curious, I come down in box 5. If you’ve been raised a creationist, I’d expect you to be most comfortable with box 2, possibly box 3. You must understand, I grew up not even hearing of creationism. Where I come from, if you’re religious you pretty much believe 2 or 3 (or both, you know). If you’re spiritual you believe 4 and if you’re an atheist, strong or weak, you’d tick box 5 if you had to pick any (because these boxes are crude descriptors).
I notice that you raised this bit to show evolution only contradicts fundamentalism, but I disagree and would argue that it can be used to contradict positions 2-4 of the above.

1. is pretty much the most lunatic fundamentalists; that much is clear. Most religious people I know are at odds with this group.
5. is where I sit.

It is 2-4 that I think are interesting.
2. The real beauty of evolution is that despite its simplicity as a concept, it is responsible for the diversity of life. The idea that evolution was "guided" destroys the beauty of evolution in my opinion and it undermines the notion that evolution is the result of random mutations being inherited over generations and naturally selected. This view is "less wrong" than 1, but I think it ignores the most wonderful aspects of evolution.

3. Again, same thing with the guiding. I call this sort of view "cherry-picking theism" because it is effectively just taking the bits of religious belief which are either fundamental to the faith (ie. Jesus being resurrected) and leaving behind the rest of it. The argument that the Bible needs to be taken in "historical context" is nonsense and equates to "The Bible has a lot of things which aren't right for us now, so let's just ignore them".

4. Yes; this one is pantheism. When a person uses "God" as a synonym for "universe", they are pretty much an atheist.
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