Mini 1780 - camn's apartment 2 - Finale

[Tiresias]

/confirm

[Tiresias]

/confirm

If this is Kagami, I expect more pirate talk for this game.

No, we're a srs biz hydra.

I may make a yarrrgami solo account for piratespeak purposes in the future though; it was pretty fun.

[Tiresias]

I knew you weren't a unicorn.
Lala, have any suspects for who the killer is?
I think you and You Got Schooled are the prime suspects for everyone.

I don't think YGS is scum. Their entrance is the only town-indicative post on page 2, imo.

Ignorance of the Brandi thing doesn't sound genuine. Pisskop looks town.

Why do you have performer as solid town?

-kagami

[Tiresias]

Davsto had the scummiest confirm, imo, which I think YGS picked up on as well.

If YGS is scum using that as a vote excuse, they would be explicit about the why they were placing the vote.

[Tiresias]

There's more significant content now than there was then. Why is performer solid town?

[Tiresias]

hydras should make their marks

yeah the lack of hydra presence is actually disturbing me for once.

nachgami pls at least attempt to make yourselves sortable.

Eh, I'm around and thinking. Nacho hasn't reported in at all and I'd like his opinion on a couple of slots.

I'm fine with

deciding

a lynch early, but it's of value that we have a good bit of read-breadth before a lynch occurs.

I feel much less strongly about the scumminess of davsto than many players seem to, though his behavior is certainly lynch-worthy. I've never played with him before, so if you know something I don't, that would be useful.

[Tiresias]

tbf I am like 100% the scummiest player in this game rn

No, but you're you're in my Katsuki-zone atm.

[Tiresias]

can we not scumread me this game. it isn't very fun

Do you have a meta-read on davsto? That's 90% of what I'm hoping for from nacho.

[Tiresias]

yeah this is what I get when I try to explain gut reads with reasons.

Let's me just backpeddle to that time when I was voting you for [reasons] that were unknown to all.

If You Got Scholed is your scumbuddy this is a bit too easy though.

Well getting lynches through will be hard part this game since I don't seem to have charisma with this new crowd

What's your opinion on Aiden Stark, fate?

[Tiresias]

VOTE: Performer

[Tiresias]

I'm not really sure whether or not he believed that pisskop shot brandi, and I don't think it even matters much.

He's townreading pisskop apparently for dayvigging an IC.
He's clearly fishing for a reciprocated pisskop townread.
He doesn't have much to say beyond the helpful advice that we shouldn't lurk and shouldn't claim any roles.

[Tiresias]

And yes, I've been posting the whole time. Nacho hasn't posted in the hydra PT since he created the account.

He was supposed to pick out our avy, but I had to do it myself :<

[Tiresias]

Meh, might be better to just lynch davsto regardless.

[Tiresias]

Nacho-head of this hydra is going to take a small V/LA (for about two days) in order to work on the scummies; I'll be back in full by then, but Kagami is going to be driving until I get back.

[Tiresias]

What's your opinion on Aiden Stark, fate?

You just had to ask didn't you

come on Nacho

This is kagami, we played together once when I was very new. You were scum who was dayvigged by LLD on D1, iirc, so we weren't in the game together for very long. Nacho says he's going to look over my reads after the scummies are finished and he's had a chance to read the thread.

I was mostly poking at whether you were reading them in a manner consistent with their sharing your scumreads at the time (Davsto and YGS). Personally, I don't much care for Xikium's posting.

Re: YGS, I'm reversing my 128/130. 207 quotes 133, which refers to my post, but doesn't acknowledge my post at all. I think if my 130 were correct, they'd have said something to that effect regardless of alignment, so it looks like the empty davsto vote was unmotivated. YGS let the false townread ride rather than correct me.

[Tiresias]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p7790152]
nachgami pls at least attempt to make yourselves sortable.

You said this, but I feel like you're paying less attention to me/us than I'd expect.

[Tiresias]

Anti, it's not that my townread was ignored, it's that the nature of the stated townread was speculative in such a manner that it was unnatural to outright ignore it.

I agree on pisskop town and I'll call Fate town too, though for very different reasons.

[Tiresias]

Oh and still no wagons forming.

Scum paradise this is. But y'all just chugga along, doing what ya gotta do, and when you wanna actually start progressing the game.

Come find me.

There's more than enough momentum on Performer if you actually want that. You're still sitting on davsto with... Performer.

[Tiresias]

What do you think about anti and marquis?

[Tiresias]

I did do a quick skim though and Tire's continued vote one me is incredibly unnerving. I will be providing a reads list when I get back .

Why should I have retracted it?

[Tiresias]

the latest series of kagami posts aren't really helping ease any concerns there.

is nacho back yet? sorry kagami ily but you're really freaking me out. i dont know if im just not SEEING things that give your thoughts town flair or what

o.O

No word from nacho, but I'm pretty sure I'm looking in the right direction, anyway, so it's hard to imagine that I'm lacking town flair.

Re: Davsto, the devil-may-care thing looks artificial to me and I feel like he's spending much more effort commentating than actually pushing his own ideas. The most town-indicative thing there is not intrinsic in his behavior, but is more that I don't like the votes that are/were on him.

[Tiresias]

blah blah indeed.

[Tiresias]

I am awake. First order of business: find a real avatar because this one is weird as shit.

[Tiresias]

No offense Kagami <3

[Tiresias]

Secondly, Fate.

Welcome back. I've been waiting a long, long time for your return; you have always been the mafia player who I looked up to the most, the one I tried to follow, the one I tried to emulate. In the end, my style is different from yours; I explain a bunch, I make a bunch of walls, but I've finally reached a point in my game where I can now play as your equal, and I'm extremely excited to get a chance to play with you again, to show the things you taught me in a Nacho posting style; Shaman Mafia was nothing near what I'm capable of and I'm really hoping you will see that here. Admittedly, would probably not post any of this if I haven't been drinking but I'm really happy to see you back and I really hope you stick around and that's a sentiment that I would express regardless of mindstate.

[Tiresias]

Hi Antihero! Don't we feel like we have some character now?

[Tiresias]

I don't let internet strangers in my house Also, I don't do anything in the back.

Both pieces of good advice from my mother.

This was a good post!

[Tiresias]

You've somehow managed to confidently ignore one of these two pieces of information, even though it would resolve the cognitive dissonance in a way that you otherwise can't without assuming we're scum. And, to use your own logic, you're not voting us, ergo you don't think we're scummy.

I think if pisskop had a bit more tact, then the way he would have approached this situation is by asking you why you had your vote on an RVS vote instead of moving it to him when you had what seemed like a serious scumread there. I don't think possessing or lacking tact is an alignment tell more than it is a personality tell, but I do think that the way you've approached this situation is more likely town than not.

I'm shocked and horrified. Now we are less 1 Townie, an Innocent Townie at that. I have no idea who she is, this is the 1st time I 've seen her ever. So I don't know who would've targeted her.

I'm hypothesizing there's at least 1 person here who should know who she is though....and I don't mean the mod. I don't think she was just randomly targeted.

I'm assuming this is a persona, based on how laughably fake this is; was surprised to see pisskop (who has played with you before, apparently) to take it as something you genuinely believe.

him not giving me room until i can get a good grip on the game and slapping a scum label on me for super terrible reasons is anti town at best and kinda' scummy at worst.

even if he's using his "ive never seen anti come up empty as town before" he's also seen me as scum before and, by his apparently rigid paradigm of meta, it's not "like me" to do what i'm doing now as scum either so... what gives?

This doesn't make sense as an attack when applied to Fire, unless you think that it's more likely that he'd attack you as scum and expect to get townread as opposed to pressure you early as town in order to attempt to get a stronger read.

Please! Oh please let me join the RVS wagon on me!

VOTE: Davsto

I didn't really like this; it seemed like extending the RVS in a bit of an awkward way. Would have liked it a lot more if he entered and scumhunted/acknowledged that he didn't really see anything relevant instead of this.

whats your main?

Xkfyu

came up empty in a search

how would you know if fire meant it in "passing" and how is what i said an overreaction?

I don't really understand what you're getting at here.

It seems obvious to me that Fire's initial push towards you was pretty much nothing more than a baseless push; your reaction was an overreaction because Fire making an empty push at you to get a read on you shouldn't have elicited a significant response from you (it wasn't clear you were nullreading Fire until you said so explicitly).

im not getting lynched today or ever so fire should probably go ahead and get ready to pretend to "change his mind" on me sometume soon.

just a heads up

I did like this post, though; I don't really see you digging your heels in this deep as early as you would be here.

Everything except for that last sentence was clearly sarcasm.

thats over the top to you?

horseshit

The difference between sarcasm and "over the top sarcasm" isn't meaningful.

In all seriousness though, I'm unsure how I feel about Marquis' unvote.

Feels kinda like he's worried those on this wagon will have bad connotations in the future and wants to be seen to have unvoted me

hmm

I don't know what you're driving at here unless you think that something you've done this game so far looks particularly town; Marquis has no reason to unvote you until you actually look town unless you think he'll look bad staying on your wagon until you obvtown?

Noes. I was actually nullscum reading marque for the earlier dave poke

What was wrong with the earlier dave poke?

yeah i think fire is maybe being too helpful to be town here

I don't think this is such a great scumread.

I don't like this entrance from Anti at all.

Why? The first 5 pages were objectively pretty light on content.

Fir, I'm assuming you have played with Anti before? Can you tell me what you was expecting from your reaction test? Can you tell me why Anti being defensive is scummy?

Fire didn't say that Anti being defensive was scummy, just interesting. I don't understand the point of asking this question when later in that same post Fire made a couple comments towards Antihero that pretty strongly implied that he was townreading him.

So, 9 pages and not a whole lot of content.

Boss.

Why did you dislike Antihero saying this at 5 pages when you disagreed with him? Why would you vote Fate here?

I mean, do I expect a lot from you as town? Yeah, I do. So when you don't deliver it immediately sets off bells in my head.

This doesn't make sense; you can't just magically post a deliver a bunch when not a lot has happened.
I don't really like this attack because it seems like the sort of thing you would do in order to fake having a genuine read on Antihero unless you have a really terrible way of reading him.

When I say you, I'm talking about your slot. Your both responsible for what your slot posts, so don't give me the 'No he said, she said' shit coz am not buying it.

They are two separate players. The only way Xkfyu would be responsible for everything that Fire said is if Fire ran everything through Xkfyu before posting, which is clearly not the case. I also really don't understand how you're even pushing the "he said, she said" shit when they've both signed their posts separately; it's not like there's any chance of them covering up a weird stance by blaming it on the other head, which is the only legitimate worry you could have with this kind of post.

[Tiresias]

I'm not really sure whether or not he believed that pisskop shot brandi, and I don't think it even matters much.

He's townreading pisskop apparently for dayvigging an IC.
He's clearly fishing for a reciprocated pisskop townread.
He doesn't have much to say beyond the helpful advice that we shouldn't lurk and shouldn't claim any roles.

I've mostly just been waiting for Performer's followup; I don't really agree with the reciprocated pisskop townread bit but I do agree his initial entrance was several shades of useless.

I think what she was trying to say was: do you have any other significant reads other than your marquis scumread?

And @Tiresias

Tell Nacho to come out and talk to me.

Is there a reason you've been sitting back and waiting so much? The only thing I remember you doing this entire game is antagonizing Antihero pretty early on, but nothing other than that.

No way, dude. After 5 pages , Davsto self votes out of nowhere. That's scummy.

Why?

You're both voting each other. You both seem to know each other .
Can you guys expand on why you're voting each other? Maybe provide me a link to your finished game(s).

Considering neither of them have made a serious post throughout the course of this entire game, don't you think it's a pretty reasonable assumption that they don't have any real reasons behind voting each other since they aren't caught up in the game?

VOTE: Performer

I don't know either of the folks from this hydra.
You think I'm scummy because I misunderstood that Brandi wasn't a player? Am I getting this right?

That's... not what she said at all.
She said that it didn't make sense that you were townreading pisskop for vigging an IC, and that it was scummy that you hadn't done anything beyond announce to everyone that we shouldn't lurk and we shouldn't out roles.

@YGS DNTTU's ISO was weird the first 8 posts were just fluff. Recently that slot's grown better .

Still don't like how Dav self voted and just moved his vote to Marquis, like he was walking into a boring job after having worked there for 10 years.

How were DNTTU's early ISO better than the later half?
Their opening was criticizing pisskop for their attack on them. Their more recent posting has been following up on that.

OK, but you ARE good at this game. So, when you read 5 pages and come up COMPLETELY EMPTY, like not a single thing to say, what do you want me to think Anti?

Do you seriously think that Antihero couldn't have faked a 202 as scum?
The entirety of your commentary is: "Hi Davesto, I'll be watching you!", "Let's talk about why you're reading my slot as scum", "Why?", "I don't understand this post!". If that's really all you could get out of those five pages (aka nothing), then you should understand why Antihero wouldn't really get anything out of it either.

[Tiresias]

Vote: You Got Schooled

Not caught up yet, but I'm more comfortable with my vote here than on Performer although I don't exactly disagree with the Performer vote.

[Tiresias]

i really don't see this coming from someone who already knows davsto's alignment. it just seems so... genuine. i don't know am i a sucker?

This seems like a really odd post to townread.

[Tiresias]

Caught up.

I'll lynch any of Davsto, Fate, Performer, Marquis and Kahlan.

This was an immensely underwhelming catchup.

I'd also feel better about these reads if you went more in depth on them; as it stands, it looks like you compiled a lynch list of everyone that you think would be reasonably lynchable. I also don't really understand why Fate is on this list.

I've been burned getting tunnel visioned on people who self vote. I believe that there is huge scum-motivation to self voting and little town-motivation, but the last time I pushed that angle that particular person turned out to be town. I suppose it could come from either town or scum, or rather its probably more based on personality than alignment....

What is significant about an RVS self-vote?

So Fate misrepped me, claimed he knew Davsto, then Davsto counters Fate's post by claiming they never even played together.

None of these things happened, by the way.

My read on Kah is better now. Will take some time to look into Pro's game later.

In both of these games, Kah's engagement was better in the beginning than it was in this one. Why did this piece of information improve your read on her?

Well, we can't just put that to the side can we? That's a pretty big 'What the fuck just happened' moment that needs looking at.

Fate posted a case on Davesto that was objectively wrong. Fate backed off as a result. You're saying that he should have... done what, exactly? Or did you not understand the case posted and was just agreeing with it because it sounded good? I also hate that your entire scumread on Fate is for him "backing off too early"; do you think he would back off too early if he was scum and Davesto was town? Why? Why did you wait to question Fate on this piece until Fate pointed out how little sense your scumreads made?

[Tiresias]

kahlan got off to a rocky start w/ the whole "lynch me if it helps town" (wtf?), but i thought her Post 421 and Post 488 were really town. 421: she didn't try to force the pisskop read or make up shit or dress it up. 488 is pretty town in that she saw a read she disagreed w/ but didn't whiteknight and couched her question as a doublecheck. she's not totally transparent, but i think it's from not-really-confident newbtown. (going to try to not overthink or get paranoid about this read either.)

The only thing town about Kahlan that I've seen so far is her "lynch me if it helps town" bit; newbie scum are rarely creative enough to pretend to be martyrs while newbtown often think that they are playing horribly and maybe it would help the other townies find the real town if the other townies lynched them first. I don't understand how "not forcing the pisskop read" is a plus; the easiest answer to any question as scum is "I don't know". #448 (that is what you're talking about, right?) is again a whole lot of nothing: she says that she doesn't know why Davesto could be scum but here's one thing that could be scummy but is she missing something more?

it was kagami's early ygs read in Post 128 (which i was kinda questioning at the time). it felt like kagami was a little heavy handed on a not-really-great ygs townread and my first instinct there was "kagami's scum and she's overplaying her omniscience hand." i didn't press it at the time though b/c i wanted to give nacho and kagami room w/o getting on their asses and see what they came up with.

The reasoning for Kagami's early YGS read is easy enough to follow; she thought they were town because they were the only people making a reasonable push.

it was kagami's early ygs read in Post 128 (which i was kinda questioning at the time). it felt like kagami was a little heavy handed on a not-really-great ygs townread and my first instinct there was "kagami's scum and she's overplaying her omniscience hand." i didn't press it at the time though b/c i wanted to give nacho and kagami room w/o getting on their asses and see what they came up with.

The reasoning here is that Kagami offered specific intent speculation on why BBT voted Davesto (because he found Davesto's confirm scummy). His later catchup makes it seem like that wasn't the case, and yet he never felt the need to correct Kagami's incorrect interpretation, which has more scum motivation than town motivation.

For example, if I went "hey I think Antihero is town because he picked up on Firebringer's scummy early game" while you were just dicking around, there's more motivation to correct it as town than scum; as town, you want your moves to be transparent and understood, while as scum, you don't mind letting that misunderstanding stand because the misunderstanding is the basis for a townread on you. Does that make sense?

[Tiresias]

I skimmed kahlan's earlier games. Shes quite the talker relative to here.

Is there a way I could talk you out of that Aiden Stark vote? There are much better places to go for today.

[Tiresias]

What do you think about YGS?

[Tiresias]

Oh and still no wagons forming.

Scum paradise this is. But y'all just chugga along, doing what ya gotta do, and when you wanna actually start progressing the game.

Come find me.

My favorite part about this post is how you're complaining about an atmosphere that is largely benefiting scum while doing absolutely nothing to fix it.

I mean, sure, you can attack that ONE post for not creating wagons or not progressing the game but that doesn't mean all of my other posts are lacking in this area so...I don't know what you're trying to do there. Well, I do, but I need other people to see it too.

You've been present. You've announced that you've had scumreads on people. I don't think you've done a whole not in the "pushing your scumreads and starting wagons" department, though.

For example, you've expressed a scumread on Fate. The only reasoning that you've given as to why we should Fate was reasoning that you gave in response to him pushing you for weird scumreads. You haven't followed up on that or attempted to even a little bit.

You've expressed a scumread on Davesto. The meat of your push is that "self-voting is bad". You haven't expanded beyond that.

Another thing that I'm picking up on: why did you think that Fate's jump onto Davesto was bad when his reasoning for voting Davesto was good (according to you)?

Anyway like I said, I'lll be following up . In the meantime I'd like for you guys to focus a wagon elsewhere instead of me. Though I appreciate a wagon to L-1 for claim, I've been ridiculously busy so I'm not the best person to focus. Plus I'm town - if I'm scum, I'm easy to catch on any day phase as Anti, Fire, Dav, and pk know.

This looks somehow vaguely town; I'm somehow envisioning Performer!scum as not being the type who is savvy enough or brave enough to straight up ask the town to stop wagonning him. The "Kahlan is a mother and they have trouble lying!" is also terrible enough reasoning where I have no idea where to think of it; even if he's scum, he probably believes that there isn't anything horribly wrong with that reasoning, so, no clue what to do with that.

Anti, I think 'it tells me nothing' is the point: fate made a crappy unexplained vote, then backed it up with a fairly decent set of points about the self votes, then moves off dav because he's 'reasonable'.

No, he moved off Davesto because his case was wrong.
If he backed it up with decent reasoning after naked voting, do you think it's possible that he had that reasoning in his mind the whole time? Or do you believe that when a vote is made, all reasoning must be made at the same time?

[Tiresias]

Been a scumread, but Im happy floating around.


My real issue is I havent played with bbt or bella for so long Im not confident in my read of their behavior.

I haven't played with either for a while either, but I know they're both better players than the crap they're floating out.

[Tiresias]

I guess that's L-2 now.

I'm gonna go get Bella to town the fuck out of this slot because clearly people can't read me and I'm gonna get annoyed.

Or you could, you know, respond to points against you.

[Tiresias]

Vig claim?

[Tiresias]

Or was catching you really that easy?

[Tiresias]

I'm the greatest.

[Tiresias]

I'm absolutely the greatest.

Would you like to know why, BBT?

[Tiresias]

Oh? You don't care why I'm not unvoting?

[Tiresias]

Oh, I'm sure you're just a

tiny

bit curious. It's almost like you made a pretty big mistake, huh?

[Tiresias]

But I'll save the surprise for after I'm caught up!
I'm a busy man, you know. Got other bad guys to catch.

[Tiresias]

My baiting of your vig claim and sheer elation when it came out should make it exceedingly obvious that I'm not scrambling for a fakeclaim.

[Tiresias]

Plus, you know, you have to commit to pushing me now otherwise you die.

Oh, don't you worry about that!

[Tiresias]

I'm just trying to find the perfect way to break the news to you.

[Tiresias]

Oh! I've got it!

What do these group of people all have in common?

Carl Jung
Hermann Rorschach
Sigmund Freud

And why does the thread that connects these three people fuck you over entirely?
I'll leave you some time to think.

[Tiresias]

(I'm a Psychologist.)

[Tiresias]

(Psychiatrist*)

[Tiresias]

And luckily for me, Serial Killers can't kill when they're dead.

[Tiresias]

che?

psychiatrist?

If I target a Serial Killer, they are converted to a Vanilla Townie, which means that we very likely have a SK in the game and not a vig.

[Tiresias]

Recruitment happens after killing, so yes, YGS's kill would go through.

[Tiresias]

Hmm, so if we have a SK you probably die tonight anyway.

Might go back to shooting Fate in that case.

I'd be much more amendable to healing you if you outed as SK and allowed town to direct your vig; can't imagine Kagami disagreeing with that. But, as long as you keep up this "I'm just a vig and there might also be an SK in a 12 player game charade", you're dying today.

[Tiresias]

I feel much more comfortable calling Antihero as town town town, now. I don't think this is his scum play, but I thought there might have been some possibility of some of his weirder townreads being SK trying to avoid making too many enemies.

[Tiresias]

That's why Nacho better join this wagon when he comes back, real wagon times real shit gettin done

;D

This was the perfect time to make it to this post.

[Tiresias]

YGS is very obviously the SK. But turning them town and directing their vig is the optimal play, especially in a 12p game.

[Tiresias]

Think of it this way: if they don't cooperate, we have to correctly lynch 3 times before mislynching twice in order to win the game.
If they do cooperate, we need to correctly lynch/kill three times before mislynching/misvigging four times, which means we basically get double the chances to root out scum. The only way this goes to shit is if scum kill us before we can heal YGS, but if we have some sort of protective role on us that shouldn't be a problem.

[Tiresias]

Vanilla Townies are aligned with the town.

[Tiresias]

Recruitment resolves after killing.

[Tiresias]

Yep.

[Tiresias]

That's why 12p is significant; as it stands, we would make it to MyLo on a normal one lynch/kill cycle. The one shot we get from a cooperating YGS means that we get to LyLo instead AKA free kill.

[Tiresias]

We're voting YGS, AIden. Pro-tip: pisskop is a likely partner!

I think you're just getting bothered by pisskop's needless aggression at this point, don't really think it's a particularly good scumtell.

That probably came across as more harsh than I meant it, sorry >.> I see your posts and I don't *want* them to be from town. And reading you as town makes me get all sorts of premonitions of how stupid I'm going to feel if I'm wrong about it. So it's really me that makes it frustrating and not you. But yeah..

I think that the way DRK framed this read in particular is more likely to come from town than scum, feels genuine. In particular, this is a fairly complicated townread if DRK is scum white-knighting town, and too harsh then apologetic way he goes it makes it seem unlikely to be coming from DRK interacting with a scumpartner (if he was talking that way about a scumpartner, scumpartner would know that it was just scum theatre).

I have a great respect for the heads of YGS, but I'm starting to see good points I can agree with regarding YGS.

What points did you like in particular?

That dude isn't even that good a scum player. To this day, I'm boggled how he got that award.

At least we can agree on something!

VOTE: Performer

You like bringing up roles huh?

What kind of vote is this...?
Are you trying to imply that he's rolefishing here?

VOTE: YGS
We need an L-1. Too much stagnation.

Holy sweet shit this is terrible.

“No word from nacho, but I'm pretty sure I'm looking in the right direction, anyway, so it's hard to imagine that I'm lacking town flair.” Fluff post about town flair – why mention this at the end of your sentence?

She mentioned town flair because Antihero said that she was lacking town flair.

[Tiresias]

As it stands, my strong townreads are {Antihero, Fate, Pisskop, DNTTU}, lesser tier is {Aiden, Davesto}. Out of the group left standing, I'd probably guess that Marquis is the likeliest town out of everyone remaining and would strongly prefer Performer death before the Kahlan-ProHawk lurker squad.

[Tiresias]

unless you think they were scared of the bullet.


id just as soon have lynched them as scum, tbh

Them referring to my slot?

[Tiresias]

As it stands, my strong townreads are {Antihero, Fate, Pisskop,

DNTTU

},

any particular reason for this?

I thought that the push on pisskop from DRK was townier than not. The substance in the read isn't bad (pisskop bringing up that they weren't scum reading him if they were voting RVS instead while DRK had already expressed suspicion), DRK's emotion when responding to pisskop seemed genuine/in line with what I expect from him as town (#246 felt like genuine excitement at catching scum), and his YGS evaluation felt pretty genuine in and of itself (in particular, assuming that YGS meant that Fate's jump off Davesto was scummy and then reevaluating later; the reasons they gave for them being scum were also pretty solid in and of itself).

yeas

im willing to entertai n it but find it relatively unlikely.

time will sort you guts though, so

This makes sense.

Ugh, bbt did thiiings.

Our kill goes through automatically, so I'm not sure how we prove our role.

I don't have much experiences with psychiatrists, but if true it suggests a pretty strong scum team.

Can I take this as a yes you are an SK and willing to shoot within {Kahlan, Prohawk} then?

Uh yes I'm sure those things happened regarding Fate & Davsto.

Regarding your question on Kahlan: The meta helped improve my read on her - I wasn't just looking at how much she put into there, I was looking at how those games were similar to this one. If she keeps up her excuses about not contributing though, my townread of her will slide like any reasonable person's read should.

Also, how come your head now sounds so much different than the other one? It's a little confusing and very disturbing .

Could you point out a couple of the similarities between the other games you've seen Kahlan play and this one?

Dude, Tire. Why did you claim without any good reason to? I obv don't have as much exp as many players in this game itself , so am I missing something here??

I checked up your role specifics, and it stated you're pro-town...ok. I have a hypothesis on why you claimed like that, but I want to hear your answer first.

My role makes it extremely likely for there to be a Serial Killer in the setup instead of a big, which meant that me outing my role was a very strong piece of evidence in outing YGS as SK and not vig. I also outed it because directing YGS's shot and healing them during the night is much better than just plain lynching them and the former isn't possible without us outing first. Does that make sense?

[Tiresias]

-Doesn't Psych have to live, in order to convert an SK to VT? Yet it's being talked about that if Tire died from YGS, then Tire would successfully convert him. That doesn't sound realistic
-In a 12-person game, there somehow exists an SK and/or Vig? To be honest , I find this laughable . Maybe I'm more sheltered but the numbers don't add up. I thought I was coming into a balanced game...camn, this isn't a balanced game either??

Psychiatrist does have to live in order to convert SK to VT, hence why I want the promise from YGS to shoot in {Prohawk, Kahlan} before we move on. If they don't shoot in that group of people and we die, they get lynched automatically. If they do shoot in that group, then they survive and become town (and we will have the advantage at that point).

The 12 player game balance is likely balanced towards old balance theory (aka before 13p), which means yep, SK is possible.

@Tire if you're town you need to seriously reanalyze. Call me the most insane scumhunter ever, but people who put in effort and try their best to consistently put in substance , should not be prioritized as lynches over lurkers. This is incredibly scummy what you're doing, and it's not made me townread you.

I prioritize lynching scum by how likely I find that they are scum; whether they are posting or not doesn't matter much to me.
However, I'll acknowledge that your latest posting at least looks like genuine effort, and would be willing to give you a little room as a result. I think that we're probably having trouble understanding each other here, so I'll try to make an effort in fixing that after I'm done catching up.

I'm all for leaving YGS alive to convert, even if it means my death

Well, unless Bella can talk some sense into that slot.

Unvote:
Vote: Performer

YGS shoots in {Prohawk, Kahlan} or the slot can't live; otherwise, they could shoot me and then say that the scumkill was theirs, hence no confirmed town.

So Tire is a Psychaiatrist who can turn YGS town? Why are ppl trying to lynch YGS again?

We aren't.

I'm all for leaving YGS alive to convert, even if it means my death

I nominate Kahlan and Performer Prohawk to get SK'd

This is kinda weird.

Why?

[Tiresias]

Day 1 should be wrapping up by now.

Patience.

There's no reason why Day can't run for a little while longer to allow people time to catch up and do things, especially considering that we've already found one scum today and we have a lynch + an SK kill to figure out. We also need YGS's word that they will shoot one of {Kahlan, Prohawk} and that they are an SK before we end the day no matter what.

[Tiresias]

i agree with anti but i don't want to vote either of them today

i'm not rereading i'm just assuming anti's posts capture the gist of what's important

anti vote someone else and i'll sheep you

I'm not really sure I understand where you're coming from re: your read on us.
Do you think that we are scum because of things we've posted or because of Anti's setup spec?

[Tiresias]

Performer, I have two questions that I'd like you to focus on when you get the chance:

I have a great respect for the heads of YGS, but I'm starting to see good points I can agree with regarding YGS.

What points are you referring to here?

Secondly, what similarities did you see in Kahlan's other completed games versus her game here?

[Tiresias]

Oh and still no wagons forming.

Scum paradise this is. But y'all just chugga along, doing what ya gotta do, and when you wanna actually start progressing the game.

Come find me.

Can I ask why you're complaining about the lack of wagons and the lack of progression without any attempt to, you know, actually do either of those things in your post.

If you're gonna bitch about a problem, don't be the one helping to cause it.

Plus, we

do

have over a week left. Don't sweat it.

Why didn't you vote YGS here?

So YGS probably is an SK because I doubt camn would pull the same "psych but no sk" twice

Or Tire isn't a psych but that seems a bizarre fakeclaim with little prompting

What is your read on us?

Yeah, I think that's the problem with self-meta. It's not scummy, just unreliable; as true as the meta may be, the fact that the player is aware of their own meta in a certain area makes it immediately unreliable.

I'm not sure if I'd be able to count the number of times I brought up me being crap as scum in Paint Mafia as a point.

I don't scumread people for self-meta, but I ignore any advice it gives

What is your read on Marquis?

[Tiresias]

Willing to die but then trying to direct the kill? Maybe I'm reading it wrong...

Also, I'm just going to come out and say this because I have had my name floated as a kill candidate. You prob shouldn't kill me.

If you're willing to soft claim, you might as well full claim.

[Tiresias]

Willing to die but then trying to direct the kill?

The acknowledgement was that YGS being healed was worth it for town even if YGS decided to vig Fate as town, but it'd be far better if YGS let their kill be directed and didn't just vig a townie.

[Tiresias]

If ygs is going to be town they should be allowed to play to their new wincon.

Directing their kill is unnescessary as they wouldnt be a threat.



somebody tell me how they would be obligated to play to an SK wincon tonight.

YGS isn't town until I heal them and I receive confirmation that they are healed.
If I die tonight (aka scum kills me, YGS shoots Fate), then YGS remains a SK.

[Tiresias]

Willing to die but then trying to direct the kill? Maybe I'm reading it wrong...

Also, I'm just going to come out and say this because I have had my name floated as a kill candidate. You prob shouldn't kill me.

If you're willing to soft claim, you might as well full claim.

Not interested, ProHawk?

[Tiresias]

YGS isn't town until I heal them and I receive confirmation that they are healed.
If I die tonight (aka scum kills me, YGS shoots Fate), then YGS remains a SK.

The extension of this thought is that it's to our best interest to force YGS to townside regardless of whether they want to or not since there is a legitimate strategy in attempting to make a pro-scum kill and still attempt to win as an SK.

[Tiresias]

Well, if the action occurs after shooting, which is something I might just ask via pm, then sure.

The action does occur after shooting.

[Tiresias]

Recruitment happens after killing, so yes, YGS's kill would go through.

Recruitment happens after killing, so yes, YGS's kill would go through.

Recruitment happens after killing, so yes, YGS's kill would go through.

Recruitment happens after killing, so yes, YGS's kill would go through.

Recruitment happens after killing, so yes, YGS's kill would go through.

Recruitment happens after killing, so yes, YGS's kill would go through.

Recruitment happens after killing, so yes, YGS's kill would go through.

Recruitment happens after killing, so yes, YGS's kill would go through.

[Tiresias]

@mod - does this game use Natural Action Resolution for actions?

Can you answer my questions and explain why you think that I would lie about when my ability resolves despite finding it very very likely that I am telling the truth about possessing it?

[Tiresias]

I think what you're probably picking up on is frustration that we got off to a great start and yet town is apparently only concerned with derailing itself on the stupidest shit imaginable.

[Tiresias]

Oh and still no wagons forming.

Scum paradise this is. But y'all just chugga along, doing what ya gotta do, and when you wanna actually start progressing the game.

Come find me.

Can I ask why you're complaining about the lack of wagons and the lack of progression without any attempt to, you know, actually do either of those things in your post.

If you're gonna bitch about a problem, don't be the one helping to cause it.

Plus, we

do

have over a week left. Don't sweat it.

Why didn't you vote YGS here?

So YGS probably is an SK because I doubt camn would pull the same "psych but no sk" twice

Or Tire isn't a psych but that seems a bizarre fakeclaim with little prompting

What is your read on us?

Yeah, I think that's the problem with self-meta. It's not scummy, just unreliable; as true as the meta may be, the fact that the player is aware of their own meta in a certain area makes it immediately unreliable.

I'm not sure if I'd be able to count the number of times I brought up me being crap as scum in Paint Mafia as a point.

I don't scumread people for self-meta, but I ignore any advice it gives

What is your read on Marquis?

These are the questions I'm waiting for answers for, by the way.

[Tiresias]

I think what you're probably picking up on is frustration that we got off to a great start and yet town is apparently only concerned with derailing itself on the stupidest shit imaginable.

And, because this came out more harshly than I thought it was, I'll expand on it a little:

If I lie about how my role works, I am confirmed scum.
If recruiting resolved before killing, then YGS still couldn't promise to shoot me; only an alive Tiresias can verify whether they've healed YGS or not, meaning the scum motivation that you assigned to me lying about how my role works make absolutely zero sense.

Thus, instead of focusing on anything relevant, you're double checking real quick to make sure that I didn't lie about something I have no reason to lie about. Can you see why I would be annoyed?

[Tiresias]

School, are you now a VT?

No. We didn't get confirmation of a successful target.

[Tiresias]

I know we would get confirmation if we were successful, am guessing that it's ambiguous. Pretty sure it means that they aren't an SK.

[Tiresias]

We asked camn. She said we would.

[Tiresias]

Vote: Prohawk

current guess is performer over fate

[Tiresias]

Ascetic SK would make our role even more ridiculous than it appears to be. It's bad enough to be essentially a visitor when the rest of the town is either a tracker, a vig, or at least informed rather than misinformed.

I don't see why Ascetic SK YGS wouldn't kill last night anyway.

-kagami

[Tiresias]

He shot scum #1, making him already one of the better vigs I've played with, at least.

[Tiresias]

Do you have a result for last night?

[Tiresias]

Eh, scum aiming for trackers as well as PH getting tracked suggests they have no answer to it.

Whatever result you have is prob an inno.

[Tiresias]

So don't die while it's a secret.

[Tiresias]

I want to lynch performer still.

[Tiresias]

1 nk instead of 2 nks, that is a noticeable difference.
Looks like 3 Trackers died so far, 2 scum...I wonder how we can tell if the YGS-Tiresias interaction actually happened.
I knew it! Prohawk was scum . Was obvious from his d1 play.
Based on the above details , looks like an SK remains. Starting to doubt there's a Bg or Doc in this setup.


Wasn't here for the quick wagon on d2.
Need to reread my notes.

When I pre-inned to camn's game , I thought I was going into a Normal, Balanced game...but this is neither!!!
- _-

Tiresias. Talk to me about YGS.

How disappointing that we're two scum down on Day 3.

If there were an SK, they would have just claimed after the PH track and won with town. YGS is nearly confirmed town with PK's track. We already said that we'd have received confirmation if YGS were converted, so what are you asking to talk about?

[Tiresias]

I think youre fishing for an inno on you. :v

With all thr trackers around Im fairly hard pressed to not see some kind of ninja.

If you visited us twice in a row -_____-

[Tiresias]

Then we're lucky, I was thinking about submitting a psych on anti, but nacho never got back to me and we ended up doing nothing.

[Tiresias]

Then we're lucky, I was thinking about submitting a psych on anti, but nacho never got back to me and we ended up doing nothing.

My reaction to this is that it's extremely suspicious. A highly experienced player with at least 1 head having IC'd before....forgetting a PR submission at nighttime?

I didn't forget to submit an action, I didn't submit one because there's obviously not another SK; if there were, they would have claimed or shot us by now.

[Tiresias]

Psychiatry-resistant SK would be setup cancer, let's not entertain that.

[Tiresias]

*shrugs*

You might play it off, but its a thing that there were not 2 kills last night.

Which makes them more likely to be town, not less.

[Tiresias]

BBT, I didn't really like your Fate-Davesto case and got into why in-depth Day 1 when I thought you were a bad guy. I still don't want to lynch Fate.

Why do you think Performer is town?

[Tiresias]

YGS is very very very likely town.

[Tiresias]

Since we have 7 remaining and there have been 3 who claimed already, I have an idea to suggest for this day phase, but I first want to see what people say . It's not some wildly farfetched idea but I've been considering it for this phase, but depends on what happens. I'm not sure if it's a good or bad idea yet.

Why did you suggest a mass claim?

[Tiresias]

since we've got a lynch to spare or so, I'm also content with satisfying Pisskop's Aiden Stark bloodlust

It looks to me like Davsto was trying to discredit the wagon on him as RVS when he self-voted in response to Aiden's shift. If he was encouraging a bus, I think he'd be treating as legitimate.

I don't get the setup if there's no ninja and this many trackers, and I don't get how anti tracked PH if scum has a ninja. Anti didn't mention any additional targets, which he should have had as a scum tracker who also killed; it's possible PH was just stupid and actually tracked the NK victim.

Has anyone tracked performer anywhere?

[Tiresias]

-kagami

[Tiresias]

Actually, marquis, you should be able to confirm all the tracker claims. Now would be a good time to do that.

[Tiresias]

Then we're lucky, I was thinking about submitting a psych on anti, but nacho never got back to me and we ended up doing nothing.

wait what....

SK-Tracker? Wtf was this line of thought

On D1, I thought anti's progression on us was strange, which I never really got over. I wasn't really thinking about too much about it from a role standpoint, and it was kind of a throw-away idea. We had already agreed that there was pretty much no chance of an SK after the PH flip.

We should have targeted performer, just to be tracked, but shrug.

[Tiresias]

I fakeclaimed, don't worry about it.

That was an amazingly insightful fake-claim...

[Tiresias]

Why were you townreading pisskop back then?

[Tiresias]

VOTE: Marquis

I don't see how you possibly could have come up with that if it's not real without knowing PH is a tracker and that both pisskop and kuribo were town.

[Tiresias]

Marquis' claim makes sense.

We know from two people claiming Tracker (kuribo and pisskop) that there is more than one Tracker.

Marquis' role makes perfect sense, as it stops the main problem of putting multiple identical town roles in - it stops an inevitable and unfair counterclaim lynch (or maybe even two if town follows it up).

However, it still allows a counterclaim of sorts, since if more trackers claim than Marquis knows exist, then shit goes down.

It makes pretty much perfect sense in a game which - as has been proven - has more than one tracker.

And I assume the reason Marquis voted DNTTS for asking that is because it's pretty damn rolefishing, to go around asking how many town trackers are in the game.

First, a simple question must me asked:

@camn - do players, when lynched or killed, flip with their role PM or not? Do they flip with their role name as it is in their Role PM?

Since it doesn't matter as long as one town member is aware of how many Trackers there are, ideally we want only Marquis to know until Marquis dies, at which point everyone should hopefully know.

Ideally, we can work out a way to make that happen.

It's marquis.

[Tiresias]

I don't think scum-marquis can confirm that all the tracker claims are real or it's game over, ninja or not.

[Tiresias]

And there was no way to know there were so many when the claim was made.

[Tiresias]

And there was no way to know there were so many when the claim was made.

That's why I said X trackers. I was BSing my way through it all and changed my claim multiple times over just so any other town trackers wouldn't feel like claiming.

Simply put, once pisskop claimed, I guessed there were a bunch of trackers. Earlier sketchy behaviors in reaction to kuribo claiming also implied this.

Like it or not I made a call and committed to it for as long as I thought was necessary.

By the way, would really like Tiresias to explain why they didn't at least try to submit something. A Psychiatrist not going anywhere last night is one indicator of a possible Ninja. Especially with Anti's setup spec still making a hell of a lot of sense, getting the scum to think any vig claim was an SK.

Yes, we should have acted last night, I already said that. I completely missed Day 2, worked out that there prob was no SK and that our role was stupid, and Nacho agreed. I asked him what we should do, said I wanted to throw out a heal on anti, and then Day 3 started before we did anything.

You can speculate that we're a Night 2 ninja or whatever, but we'll be healing people who are obviously not getting NKed from here out. We had no reason to believe we'd be tracked, nor that apparently everyone is a tracker.

Now why are you being tight-lipped about your results? Everybody but Fate and I guess YGS should have acted last night. Even if the last scum member is a ninja, then any result you have on anyone other than us and those two players is an innocent, and anyone who traveled N1 is probably also innocent. Who do you have innos on?

[Tiresias]

-kagami (obviously)

[Tiresias]

I'm pretty obviously a Tracker. I caught onto how people seemed to be treating the kuribo claim as incompatible with their own, and right after the pisskop claim was like "oh this is a Tracker madness game" so decided to fakeclaim so no other town would feel it necessary to claim too.

Yes, I was reading pisskop as town, but unsure of kuribo until pisskop claimed and multiple town trackers started making sense. You can see this in how I subtly tried to cast doubt on kuribo's claim and he took that personally.

Davsto treating me like that as a scumpartner is kind of ridiculous. Both of us would know better than to organize a scum fakeclaim like this and connect the dots ourselves, instead of letting town do it so we don't build associative tells.

so you determined that the setup had multiple trackers, so, instead of saying "hey trackers stop claiming, there's obviously multiple trackers", you pull of that fake claim for... no reason?

davesto backing up your claim as a scum partner is ridiculous? why? how the hell does that make sense?

[Tiresias]

By the way, would really like Tiresias to explain why they didn't at least try to submit something. A Psychiatrist not going anywhere last night is one indicator of a possible Ninja. Especially with Anti's setup spec still making a hell of a lot of sense, getting the scum to think any vig claim was an SK.

i shouldn't have to target anyone as a visitor.
why do i care about submitting night actions when my night action is useless?

anti's setup spec was that we were a mafia psychiatrist. your new setup spec is that we are a ninja psychiatrist.

[Tiresias]

Davsto treating me like that as a scumpartner is kind of ridiculous. Both of us would know better than to organize a scum fakeclaim like this and connect the dots ourselves, instead of letting town do it so we don't build associative tells.

From what I've seen here, I doubt Davsto knows much about high level scum-play. His interactions seem like they can be taken as one-level-removed at most.

p-edit: hi nacho

[Tiresias]

so you determined that the setup had multiple trackers, so, instead of saying "hey trackers stop claiming, there's obviously multiple trackers", you pull of that fake claim for... no reason?

Clearly it was a decision made in the moment. Not like I exactly had enough time to react and fakeclaiming was my instinctive response.

this is terrible.

[Tiresias]

By the way, would really like Tiresias to explain why they didn't at least try to submit something. A Psychiatrist not going anywhere last night is one indicator of a possible Ninja. Especially with Anti's setup spec still making a hell of a lot of sense, getting the scum to think any vig claim was an SK.

i shouldn't have to target anyone as a visitor.
why do i care about submitting night actions when my night action is useless?

anti's setup spec was that we were a mafia psychiatrist. your new setup spec is that we are a ninja psychiatrist.

A player being tracked nowhere when they have a pro-town ability that costs town nothing to use is suspect, and a "no action" is definitely not what I expected to find from you two in particular. Altogether I'd say it's fairly indicative of holding a ninja ability.

you didn't answer my question.

[Tiresias]

so you determined that the setup had multiple trackers, so, instead of saying "hey trackers stop claiming, there's obviously multiple trackers", you pull of that fake claim for... no reason?

Clearly it was a decision made in the moment. Not like I exactly had enough time to react and fakeclaiming was my instinctive response.

this is terrible.

and to expand on this, no, i don't believe for a minute that your instinctual response to seeing a bunch of tracker claims was to go "oh yeah, I know there are X trackers in the setup" as opposed to go "hey, there are probably just a bunch of trackers, stop claiming". i'm grappling with you not understanding why I wouldn't seriously care about using an action that is completely useless to me + psychiatrist ninja being your first assumption and it sucks because i know i am very likely going about this the wrong way if you are somehow town but are you serious?

[Tiresias]

hey, there are probably just a bunch of trackers, stop claiming

Now that you've mentioned this, I remember part of what I was thinking was that I didn't exactly want to reveal that I was a Tracker too.

I don't get why this supposedly doesn't make sense to you, while you ignore how not at least attempting a psych action makes more sense than not. And as town submitting an action could potentially exempt you from being ninja.

hey, there are a bunch of trackers, stop claiming (doesn't reveal you are a tracker).

attempting a psych action makes marginally more sense than not. it doesn't make sense to try to confirm us as non-ninja when we are very obviously a psychologist. unless suddenly you're disagreeing with that?

[Tiresias]

psychiatrist*

[Tiresias]

If a watcher attempts to visit someone and is killed, would he be seen as going nowhere by a tracker?

[Tiresias]

^@camn

[Tiresias]

Unvote me you silly goose. I am as transparently town as I can get while on my phone cuddling in bed.

which isn't exactly town enough to blow my socks off.
give me something to work with. this "i don't see how you don't see how i see" is a conversation that probably should have been stopped before it even started, but i keep waiting for something to click and you to engage and do good things (or react and do questionable things) but you continue to give me... nothing.

[Tiresias]

in machina i felt like we were at each other's throats because your rolestop thing Day 1 was pretty freaking weird, but when I confronted you about it, you dug your heels in and defended yourself and yelled at me and pushed back, whereas here the response doesn't feel anything like that. it also feels like you're ignoring pieces of information in claims and play because they don't make sense from me as scum and not because you actually have any form of legitimate suspicion.

[Tiresias]

But its not like we cant catch them out when tomorrow comes and they have to claim who/what before anyone else does.

his real role is probably tracker. doesn't mean he's town.

[Tiresias]

i never said that you weren't a tracker.

i said that the reasons for your fake claim didn't make sense.

[Tiresias]

Us - Psychiatrist, visited YGS N1, No one N2
YGS - Vig (presumed 1S), killed Davsto N1
Fate - VT
Everyone else - Tracker, listing in order of claim
Pisskop - Us N1 (YGS), us N2 (nowhere)
Performer - Nahdia N1 (?), us N2 (nowhere)
Marquis - Dav N1 (nowhere), us N2 (nowhere)
Aiden - unclaimed, I think. Should claim

Dead
Davsto - scum watcher
PH - scum tracker
DTTU - town tracker
Anti - town tracker
nahdia - town tracker

[Tiresias]

Performer, out of curiosity, who did Nahdia target N1?

[Tiresias]

The fact that we have experienced players in this game and there was no night kill - the theory that someone didn't submit on purpose, is unbelievable and they're setting themselves up for a higher chance of loss. This is also why I'm wondering about the RC slot. However, I've been townreading that slot since d1 so I want to see what rolls out for today, and since we only need 4 to lynch, I want to be careful of placing a vote so quickly.

Sequence of events on pk: pushed DNTTU on d1, who turned out town. Without stating intent to hammer , he hammered Marquis on d3. Then in d4 we find out there's no nk - throughout n3, the phase right before d4, RC was replacing into pk's slot. All these events cause growing doubt for my read on that slot.

I'm surprised that you dropped this entire line of inquiry just because RC asked if you thought he was too dumb to forget to submit a kill.

[Tiresias]

What's your point Tire?

Do you think he was onto something and that he was right about me not submitting ak ill?
Do you think it's suspicious and that he's scum because he let go of the line of the questioning?

Where are you going with that?

The latter.

[Tiresias]

fate i have something to tell you tomorrow afternoon

[Tiresias]

I haven't talked to Xkfyu in a awhile, I think he is busy with real life. Anyways, I want to lynch Fate to be honest right now, but I don't know how much is out of annoyance and actual scumreading.

The votes on RC are bad. Pisskop who was town was replaced by RC, so still conf town.

-Fire

Have you PMed him?

[Tiresias]

Has

1) Tire targeted YGS
and
2) Any investigatives confirmed that they are not ascetic?

We've targeted YGS.
I very highly doubt that they are an ascetic SK based on the whole one-shot vig thing.

[Tiresias]

If they were an SK, they would claim full vig and kill with abandon after we confirmed them as not-SK.
I would also hate camn's guts.

[Tiresias]

What exactly does your Psychiatrist thing do?
Do you turn VT, take away nightkill, what?

Turn VT.

[Tiresias]

So if we verify that they're not ascetic they're pretty conftown.

Maybe we should NL today?

We could, but all that would do is confirm YGS as not-SK and that's not really productive information because they aren't an SK.
Scum won't kill since they don't have an answer to the 70 trackers in the game.

[Tiresias]

Firebringer, what were your results for N1 and N2?

[Tiresias]

What do you mean what do I make of it?

[Tiresias]

Doesn't Psychiatrist confirm that there's no SK in the game anyway?

Camn explicitly labelled the game non-bastard.

Camn explained she didn't find that alignment change non-bastard IIRC.

[Tiresias]

What do you mean what do I make of it?

It makes sense that there's not an SK in the game because if we were to be lynched D1 or killed N1, then that SK would be absolutely and utterly fucked. It also makes sense because it would encourage town to mislynch the one-shot vig which would be a small balance to 7 trackers I guess.

[Tiresias]

7 trackers.

[Tiresias]

SK has no way to win against town with 7 trackers.

[Tiresias]

I'm assuming there would be a lot of crossover with kills/people being tracked. I'm guessing that was the whole point of the set-up but it hasn't quite worked out like that.

And a watcher.

[Tiresias]

Camn, would a psychiatrist healing an SK and making them a VT be considered bastard?

[Tiresias]

A SK becoming VT with no prior knowledge of it: absolutely bastard.

This is your opinion. This is not the moderators opinion.

[Tiresias]

Start from here. It should be exceedingly obvious to you that I am in fact telling the truth about being a Psychiatrist.

[Tiresias]

Thsi is not an opinion this is fact.
Mid game alignment changes are bastard. end story. game over.

But Reck had a mid game alignment change in a game that wasn't bastard.

[Tiresias]

Us - Psychiatrist, visited YGS N1 (confirmed by Pisskop), No one N2 (confirmed by Pisskop/Performer/Marquis)
YGS - Vig (1S), shot Davsto N1 (no one has counterclaimed, confirmed not mafia)
Fate - VT (went nowhere N2)
Everyone else - Tracker, listing in order of claim
Pisskop - Us N1 (YGS), us N2 (nowhere [claimed before anyone else did])
Performer - Nahdia N1 (nowhere [unconfirmed]), us N2 (nowhere [unconfirmed])
Marquis - Dav N1 (nowhere), us N2 (nowhere)
Aiden - Nadia N1 (nowhere [unconfirmed]), Fate N2 (nowhere [unconfirmed]), N3 (nowhere)

[Tiresias]

Psychiatrist is not bastard as long as no serial killers exist.

I don't believe that Nacho would have failed to submit a night action N2 either.

Why would I submit a night action N2? There are no SKs in the game once YGS was confirmed as not-SK.

[Tiresias]

Because they didn't night kill you.
They probably are a psychiatrist.

They're just scum aligned.

Psychiatrist-Ninja? Really?

[Tiresias]

The only reason that I am not 100% confirmed town is because I have no idea what the scum's answer to 7 trackers is because it makes absolutely no sense for it to be "nothing".

[Tiresias]

I mean, maybe?
Odd night psychiatrist, even night ninja?

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but the way you're trying to amp up the possibility of an SK feels wrong to me.

I have been the only person who has consistently pointed out that there is no way in hell that there is an SK in the game.
Your "alignment changing is bastard" points is dumb because sometimes moderators get away with things; the psychiatrist-SK interaction is a common interaction that was never bastard in old style games; the reason alignment changing is bastard is because people wanted to be informed when they were playing against cults.

[Tiresias]

Even night ninja still makes more sense than anything else I can come up with.

I considered Asceticizer but no one has seen asceticizing shenanigans, correct?

Even night ninja makes more sense than anything else, yes.
But even night ninja is something that could be verified/denied with a no lynch.

[Tiresias]

Pisskop's result on us N2 came before he claimed it, meaning that slot is very likely a tracker.

[Tiresias]

Fate seems like an odd choice because making him an even-night ninja and then giving him no other powers seems pretty shitty.

[Tiresias]

Tire, you got told about PK's track?

Pisskop claimed the result on Day 3 before we claimed where we went.

[Tiresias]

Why would he needs other powers? o.o

Putting a straight ninja in the game would be pretty obvious because scum need some sort of answer to all of the trackers in the game. Not giving him other powers means that he's a very, very obvious ninja. Adding a random VT means you have a town player that looks an awful lot like a ninja.

[Tiresias]

And if you're going to make him the most obvious ninja ever, why not make him a full ninja?

[Tiresias]

Because it would entirely defeat the point of teh setup.

Which is...?

Full ninja would mean that scum would be racing to slaughter all of the trackers before town could lynch or kill their ninja, which actually seems pretty sweet.

[Tiresias]

Ok so, Performer is probably town for the same reason that we are. That scum wouldn't track Nahdia on the same night that they killed Nahdia.

Why are you ignoring the possibility that performer didn't track Nahdia, but claimed it after all the possible trackers except yourself had claimed targets?

No Lynch is fine with me, it potentially resolves whether or not there's an Even-Night Ninja or something like that, and gives Aiden and Perf a chance to prove they can track.

-kagami

[Tiresias]

Why are you ignoring the possibility that performer didn't track Nahdia, but claimed it after all the possible trackers except yourself had claimed targets?

Because I think it's unlikely enough to ignore. I (the Xk head) was scum reading Performer in D1. So, it would have been a dangerous claim to make before we had claimed who we had visited, since Performer would have had to have been worried about the possibility that we tracked him in N1.

-Xk

You are very seriously overestimating Performer.
I don't think that Performer as scum would be aware that there was still a tracker unclaimed; I think Performer as scum would be aware that Marquis claimed to have targeted Nahdia and said that she went nowhere and that's about it.

[Tiresias]

Nacho has posted several times since D1, but neither of us have said much in the PT about the game. I've been directing what little time I've had elsewhere, and have been expecting nacho to be the carry over here.

Tl;dr of my thoughts:

The setup seems wonky and obviously broken if it's as it seems, and if it is then we pretty much auto-won after day 2 and our role is useless. I still think there's a possibility that PH was an idiot/not paying attention and actually submitted a track on the player the scumteam killed, since otherwise I can't imagine why anti wouldn't have mentioned a second target (who would be confirmed town). That's why I would like another night of results, and since scum NKed last night, it seems like there's no real loss in doing so provided there aren't goofy HPE rules.

If there's a full ninja or a falsely claiming tracker, then we've still auto-won with more "X went Y" results. I think it's probably Aiden; I think he stressed that performer is "conftown" for visiting nahdia as an indirect way of encouraging the idea that he's conftown for doing the same. I don't mind giving it a night, though.

[Tiresias]

Marquis' claim makes sense.

We know from two people claiming Tracker (kuribo and pisskop) that there is more than one Tracker.

Marquis' role makes perfect sense, as it stops the main problem of putting multiple identical town roles in - it stops an inevitable and unfair counterclaim lynch (or maybe even two if town follows it up).

However, it still allows a counterclaim of sorts, since if more trackers claim than Marquis knows exist, then shit goes down.

It makes pretty much perfect sense in a game which - as has been proven - has more than one tracker.

And I assume the reason Marquis voted DNTTS for asking that is because it's pretty damn rolefishing, to go around asking how many town trackers are in the game.

First, a simple question must me asked:

@camn - do players, when lynched or killed, flip with their role PM or not? Do they flip with their role name as it is in their Role PM?

Since it doesn't matter as long as one town member is aware of how many Trackers there are, ideally we want only Marquis to know until Marquis dies, at which point everyone should hopefully know.

Ideally, we can work out a way to make that happen.

It's marquis.

???

Looked to me like badscum-davsto was worried marquis was going to be caught in a fakeclaim, and was willing to build an association to support him since the pressure was almost entirely off him at that point. The Davsto-Marquis interactions early game were also incredibly forced and nonsensical, so I don't see why that lynch was bad without knowing already that marquis was town.

[Tiresias]

hi kanye!

[Tiresias]

In retrospect, the Marquis lynch was dumb. But at the time, he was talking about how I was suspicious because I didn't think to use my action to confirm myself as non-ninja (even though we're pretty obviously the role we say we are) and how he just couldn't understand why we wouldn't submit an action night 2 and man that was awful scummy of us and then turned around and said that the only reason that he claimed the informed tracker role was because he thought both people were town and said that it was his reflex as opposed to just saying that he thought both claimed trackers were town and there were probably a lot of trackers in the game.

[Tiresias]

His response to kuribo also sucked.

[Tiresias]

performer seems pretty conftown 2 me

Can you talk about this?

[Tiresias]

Here are some of my problems with Performer:

okay.

Wanna vote DONT TALK TO ME?

Performer is town. Solid read there.

-Fire

I want to ask why it wasn't like this in another place, but that's ...ongoing...

I've not seen DeathRow before and I've only glimpsed at games with lala before. So far their ISO is weird to me. They even asked others to get with them to lynch pk , who shouldn't be scum because this is a fairly wild claim he's making in this situation.

VOTE: do not talk to me

I don't like how he doesn't say anything about someone he's supposedly scum reading but then pisskop asks him to vote with him and instead of going "ok, sounds good" he throws in that little piece of reasoning like he was scum reading him the whole time which I hate. And I've caught him doing this constantly this game (I was expecting him to follow onto Aiden Stark earlier today, which is why I told Fate I had a present for him).

I disagree that Performer's vote on Davesto was a policy lynch vote - Performer voted Davesto because of the self-vote and for the self-vote alone, which he thought was legitimately scummy, but I do think that his initial vote on Davesto was townish (since he could have jumped on the budding pisskop wagon instead), but I think how willing he was to push Davesto early game is kind of off compared to the rest of his reads; he's seemed to want to scumread us all game but hasn't really dug in his heels and attacked whereas Davesto self-voted and then Performer was on him hard.

I have a great respect for the heads of YGS, but I'm starting to see good points I can agree with regarding YGS. Still not finished with my catchup yet.

This is another one of Performer's awkward wagon hops where he goes from saying nothing about a player to suddenly scum reading them and willing to vote them. This is the reason why he ended up voting YGS (he references this post as a reason to put him at L-1 + "this game is stagnating. we need an L-1.)

@Tire if you're town you need to seriously reanalyze. Call me the most insane scumhunter ever, but people who put in effort and try their best to consistently put in substance , should not be prioritized as lynches over lurkers. This is incredibly scummy what you're doing, and it's not made me townread you.

And I didn't really like this approach to us either; he's happy to vote Davesto and ProHawk but with us he keeps expressing suspicion and just sort of sits on it; if he were town, I don't understand why he would do this to us but not his other scum reads, but as scum I can see this as pushing back on us to get us to stop suspecting him but not voting because he didn't want to pursue a lynch.

For anyone townreading Pro , let me just ask you this: are you comfortable trying to work with someone like this in LyLo?
Chances are he's scum. If we can't get a lynch on him to go through, then I can settle for DNTTU.
VOTE: DNTTU
-----
I still find it bizarre that Fate & pk naked voted me and nobody questioned this at all.

I don't understand why he would just immediately settle for DNTTU over ProHawk at this point, or, if he thought that there wasn't a chance that he could sway a lynch over why his post would sound more like it, if that makes sense. And he does this when there were two naked votes on DNTTU at the time, so it's not like momentum was completely against him and I am surprised that a player seems to be decently paranoid (especially of naked votes) doesn't question that at all.

I was purely doing a reaction test . Of all the reactions in the world, I didn't expect you to actually go ahead and make a claim like this.

And this.
I know that I shouldn't yell at Performer or scumread him or whatever because he says something completely dumb, but Kuribo is yelling at him and telling him he is fucked if he was role fishing and Performer suggests that the

last

action he expected was for Kuribo to claim. As in he said "your predecessor claimed doctor", and the last thing he expected was for someone to correct his claim...? I don't really believe that, I think that he was distancing from his gambit because he was getting yelled at.

Well...I expected you to be like any reasonable Townie and go back through your predecessor's ISOs, and then discuss why I said that.

and quoting his followup because of how little sense that it made

[Tiresias]

Although now that I think about it, maybe you meant that he was pushing Prohawk in a policy lynch-esque way? But I disagree with that too, the "do you want him around for LyLo?" deal was more of a half-hearted attempt to drive people back onto the wagon.

[Tiresias]

Also , in no world would I have thought the Nadia slot was actually town. Wow.

And again I know that this is one of the things about Performer that shouldn't bother me, but Nahdia died N1. This was a comment Performer was making on D3, 15 minutes after his opening posts.

Since we have 7 remaining and there have been 3 who claimed already, I have an idea to suggest for this day phase, but I first want to see what people say . It's not some wildly farfetched idea but I've been considering it for this phase, but depends on what happens. I'm not sure if it's a good or bad idea yet.

I didn't like this post suggesting a mass claim and then just sort of backing away from it. I could imagine that Performer as scum N2 would be pretty fucking confused and would love a mass claim so he knew what he was up against and could convince people to claim, but as town, I'd imagine that he'd be a bit more obvious about it and wouldn't be afraid to say why he thought it should happen.

Sure perf.


They went nowhere, like they said and I hinted at

Ok. Reason I persisted in this is because I'm also a Town Tracker and saw Tire go nowhere last night. This is also why I kept asking about Tire & YGS.
After all this on d3, I'm still not sure if Tire & YGS are town or scum . Tire's post and answer to my call-out, looked genuine.

I tracked the Nahdia slot because after all that happening on d1, I was super sure that slot was scum. Then they died and flipped town, much to my surprise.

And, for similar reasons, I dislike him pestering pisskop to give his result on us N2 before Performer claimed another result on us N2; I don't understand why he would want this information when pisskop was the closest to a town read Performer had the entire game and why he wouldn't just claim if he wanted to do it to jumpstart a mass claim.

Though the claim and admittance of fake claim after i asked him about it, is suspicious, pk had a point. What was your motive for doing that , marquis??

There's also him deciding yep, Marquis's claim is looking strange, but the very next day...

on the Marq wagon for d3.

...uses it as a black mark for me.

I also hate how he supposedly forgets that he tracked me N2 when there was a kill and am really not sure how that one happened especially in the post IMMEDIATELY before that one he asked YGS why they were voting me even though we were tracked going nowhere?

[Tiresias]

im not reading all those words

please don't troll

[Tiresias]

actually i sometimes don't really know with you.
are you serious?

[Tiresias]

im not reading all those words

why not?

[Tiresias]

what in the world would make you think i would

because i was excited to see you replace in and was hoping for the super awesome flashes of serious kanye and not whatever kanye this is?

[Tiresias]

Vote: Performer

YGS, come talk to me about your Performer read?
I know you're currently clearing it based on the Prohawk vote but do you really think that Prohawk!scum wouldn't bus such a ridiculous partner?

[Tiresias]

And kanye, if you decide to wake up, come talk to me about what you think Performer was doing when he had pisskop claim before he claimed his result on us + what you meant by policy lynching Davesto because he didn't do that.

[Tiresias]

No, because you won't make any effort to expand on your read on the playerslot you think is obvtown.

[Tiresias]

I hope the reasons that you have are better than "tried to policy lynch davesto" because that's not even something that happened.

[Tiresias]

I hope the reasons that you have are better than "tried to policy lynch davesto" because that's not even something that happened.

-Nacho

[Tiresias]

The way that he approaches reads in the game doesn't make sense and look genuine at all; his vote on DNTTU was because pisskop told him to and then he acted like he was scum reading them the whole time, and his vote on YGS was "because we need to have an L-1" and then acted like he was scum reading them the whole time. His votes on Davesto and Prohawk were the only votes that he seemed to have any conviction in whereas he's been softing suspicion of us the entire game but didn't vote until YGS asked him to (and somehow forgot that we didn't go anywhere N2 while a kill happened even though he tracked us N2 when a kill happened).

[Tiresias]

Tire has been on me in d1, and now he tries reviving the wagon on me in d4.That last sentence about me "forgetting" he didn't go anywhere on n2 even though I tracked him on n2, made no sense whatsoever. Misrepresentation. I'm not as experienced as the folks in this particular game but I always try my hardest as town, and in this case - I put trust into those with more experience, which I've stated about YGS.

Yes. I suspected you on Day 1, and here I am suspecting you on Day 4. Why does that make us scum?

YGS's rebuttal to you questioning him was that we were not tracked when a kill was made, even though we were. Your response was to just sort of follow him on faith even though he didn't respond to your question because he's more experienced than you? How does this make sense at all?

[Tiresias]

Well, now I'm convinced that it's Fate.

Tire could have easily just jumped on Fate's wagon earlier, or our wagon now, instead of pushing for a different lynch in Performer.

-Xk

Why do you think that Performer is town?
You point out that Fate talking about you being scum but wanting to give you a chance to confirm yourself then moving to voting you when Kanye expresses suspicion but I think that Performer moving from his "let's consolidate votes on Tiresias" post to then immediately expressing suspicion on you as if he's getting ready to hop on your wagon is a hell of a lot worse.

As it stands, Fate, if scum, is likely an even-night Ninja. All he has to do in order to win is let the mislynch on you go through, kill YGS (who is confirmed town and thus won't be a surprising kill), and then mislynch whichever one of me/performer that gets more votes first. That means that, if you are correct, we don't have the lynches for you to let yourself be mislynched and just faith it that we'll get Fate tomorrow, so the attitude you have right now doesn't really make a lot of sense.

[Tiresias]

I'm bored.

What does Bella think of Performer?
I realize that she probably isn't paying attention to the game at the moment, but please tell her that Nacho is looking for her perspective on something.

[Tiresias]

sorry nahcop i dont think performers scum. i considered your points and reread his iso and it aint doin nothin 4 me.

Okay!

[Tiresias]

nacho tell me how this kid aint scum.

It just looks like he's kind of given up right now. I don't really see him as scum going for a no lynch because all that does is delay the inevitable for just a little while longer; would imagine he'd at least throw his weight behind a target that looked a bit more mislynchable.

[Tiresias]

Aiden can't do anything but roll over because there's really no way to stretch a case on me without making it obvious he's scum.

Don't be paranoid about me now Nacho we already discussed how dumb an Even-night ninja would be without any other powers to safeclaim.

Let's just win the game

I don't think you're scum. I think Performer is scum. I think that if we lynch Aiden today and aiden is a mislynch then either you or I are going down because no one outside of kanye cares about the game enough to do the twenty minutes of reading that it would take to realize that Performer is scum here.

[Tiresias]

This game is very very close to being over. All that it needs is just a couple days of time and then I'm sure we can wrap this up; there are six trackers at the very minimum that were in this game at the start and 2/3 of the scumteam were dead N1. There is no way in hell that we should lose this game, and the only way we can lose is if the entire town continues to check out and sit on their asses because they can't be bothered to do shit. BBT, PM Bella. Tell her that I'm calling for her. That's what you're in a hydra for; if you can't read the game, I really really hope that Bella would at least be willing to spare 30 minutes of her day on this game.

[Tiresias]

Kanye
Tire
YGS
Performer
Fate
Aiden Stark

Kanye is proven tracker on N2 thanks to pisskop's track on us. His slot is my strongest read based on play, no one has called him scum so I'm assuming everyone else agrees.
YGS is confirmed town because of shooting mafia vigilante and being healed; don't think he's an ascetic SK who decided to shoot once and then hold it for the rest of the game.

Fate is claimed VT. Tracking him is useless.

This means that we have three possible track targets that make sense: us, Aiden, Performer.

If we lynch out of Aiden/Performer today, then Kanye tracks the one remaining out of those two to make sure that they're not tracking and killing. We randomize our psych, the survivor tracks us. Survivor outs his target at the beginning of the day to prove that he tracked us. If we are scum, our only possible kill is the survivor meaning 1v1 between us and Fate in LyLo with kanye and YGS deciding. If survivor is scum, their only kill is us meaning 1v1 between them and Fate in LyLo. If Fate is scum, the only two kills he can make are us or the survivor meaning he can choose which 1v1 he wants, but he always ends up being stuck in a MyLo with YGS (who suspects him) and kanye (who can read him).

[Tiresias]

I've always felt worse about performer than bbt has. I made an early case on him which....his response was underwhelming. They are soft buddying us throughout. I'd be happy with a lynch here. I'm trying to get my head back in this but I'm wondering if my gut was right: I'm also gonna have a chat to bbt about why he started town-vibing performer because I don't think we went much further than gut.

I am very happy to see that you came back and am glad that there's at least one person who isn't Kagami that is thinking similarly to me.

[Tiresias]

@Camn:

Can you prod these knuckleheads?

[Tiresias]

I've never had this much trouble convincing scum to make the only vote they can make to survive.

[Tiresias]

Xkfyu, are you 100% on Performer town? Why?

[Tiresias]

Performer claimed that he tracked Nahdia in N1 before we ever even claimed that we were a Tracker, let alone our N1 target.

As scum, he would have probably already at least suspected that we were a Tracker, and would have needed to be a lot more cautious about his target claim. Especially since I was scum reading Performer during D1.

There is no way in hell that scum performer would think like this.

[Tiresias]

Performer claimed that he tracked Nahdia in N1 before we ever even claimed that we were a Tracker, let alone our N1 target.

As scum, he would have probably already at least suspected that we were a Tracker, and would have needed to be a lot more cautious about his target claim. Especially since I was scum reading Performer during D1.

There is no way in hell that scum performer would think like this.

It's a pretty basic scum thought process to make sure that they can't get caught in a fake claim.

-Xk

This is something that happened in this game:

YGS: I think Tiresias is scum.
Performer: What about them being tracked going nowhere last night (referring to Night 2, where there was a kill)?
YGS: They were tracked when a kill was made?
Performer: Okay! I'll vote Tiresias!

Tiresias: Performer, why the fuck did you vote us

when you tracked us going nowhere when a kill was made

?
Performer: I trusted YGS because they are more experienced!

If Performer is saying things like that, then it's very possible that he didn't think to check that everyone had claimed before claiming himself.

[Tiresias]

Sigh. After the last few pages after i stated intent of hammer on aiden, people like fate and tire planned to lynch me next? And yet we have fate who's claimed vt in this otherwise fully powered setup.

If you're town , aiden, sorry for this, but the game has to move forward in light of all that's happened.


VOTE: aiden

you are legitimately voting aiden while throwing suspicion on fate and me.
why do you think aiden could be scum?

[Tiresias]

And don't go back into lurkerville now when we have time to play together before camn arrives.

[Tiresias]

but the game has to move forward in light of all that's happened.

And while you're at it, please explain what you meant by this.

[Tiresias]

Why the fuck would you hammer AIDEN when aiden is refusing to vote him because he thinks that Fate is the last scum.