New Normal Guidelines - April 2017 update!

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Post Post #40 (isolation #0) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:27 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

Why has different kill flavor for different factions been banned? I haven't modded a normal in years, but it's something I like. I'm curious here.
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Post Post #42 (isolation #1) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:09 pm

Post by StrangerCoug »

I mean, the last time I modded a normal was in 2009, where standards were
MUCH
looser. I just can't see myself making a big deal if I already limit my modding to unaffected queues.
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Post Post #46 (isolation #2) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:17 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 44, N wrote:
In post 40, StrangerCoug wrote:Why has different kill flavor for different factions been banned? I haven't modded a normal in years, but it's something I like. I'm curious here.

There are various reasons for this. As well as what Reck said, knowing exactly how a player dies really changes the game. For example, it shouldn't be obvious that a Weak role died during the night from targeting an anti-town role. My main reason for this rule is that I don't want a serial killer's kill to be obviously different than other kills - the main reason serial killers are still allowed (a Normal game should be informed minority vs uniformed majority, and where does a Serial Killer fit into this?) is so that a vigilante is not unintentional confirmed town; if a serial killer's victim is flipped as "stabbed", this sort of defeats the purpose. Also, if every night there have been two deaths and then suddenly there is only one, it shouldn't be immediately obvious which killing role didn't successfully kill (or if both killing roles killed the same person) - this may be fine in themes, but I feel it is out of place in Normals.

OK. As I said, I was curious as, while a change I don't personally like, it is not likely to affect any games I mod in the future. If mod-confirmed town doesn't belong in a normal, then mod-confirmed town doesn't belong in a normal. It's not something I'm going to fight tooth and nail like I did the mod being allowed to generate his/her own Newbie setup (within the parameters).
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Post Post #51 (isolation #3) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:45 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 47, N wrote:That's... not what I said.

I don't understand how I misunderstood your post.
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Post Post #73 (isolation #4) » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:46 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 72, Wake1 wrote:Double Day mechanic?

I've never heard of that..

Basically, every
OTHER
lynch is followed by night instead of every single lynch.
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Post Post #123 (isolation #5) » Mon May 18, 2015 1:04 pm

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 120, BROseidon wrote:Also we should really denormalize godfather and ninja because those should eventually be classified as bastard.

I disagree. They're important counters to strong investigative roles.
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Post Post #125 (isolation #6) » Mon May 18, 2015 2:14 pm

Post by StrangerCoug »

Compared to the other investigative roles in the normal list, it's quite strong, perhaps trumped only by the cop.
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Post Post #127 (isolation #7) » Wed May 20, 2015 10:17 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 126, GreyICE wrote:You mean in the neutered list of investigative roles it's okay?

What do you mean the "neutered" list?

In post 126, GreyICE wrote:Weak Neigborizor blows it out of the water. So does Jail keeper or roleblocker. So does Gunsmith. I'd estimate it as around the same strength as a 1-shot cop, and much weaker than a 2-shot cop.

I'll admit that I'm unfamiliar with the weak neighborizer—you have to remember that I'm old school here. (I do think it would single-handedly break the setup, though.) As for jailkeeper or roleblocker, those aren't traditionally thought of blocking roles, not investigative roles, and the possibilities with false negatives with gunsmith would make me argue that it and tracker are about the same strength.

In post 126, GreyICE wrote:Would you put a godfather in a game with a 1-shot cop?

I never made an argument about balance. My argument was about normalcy. That said, I don't exactly see what the problem here is that you're trying to present. I'd put godfather and cop together; why would limiting the cop create a balance problem (assuming all other roles are vanilla)?
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Post Post #132 (isolation #8) » Thu May 21, 2015 8:18 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 128, GreyICE wrote:If you think Tracker is both good and an investigative role, you must admit that Roleblocker and Jailkeeper are better.

I'll concede that.

In post 130, kuribo wrote:I've never understood this argument and always felt that calling godfathers and ninjas "bastard" is to extend the bastard description so far as to render it completely meaningless.

Same with cop sanities.

I agree with the argument that calling godfathers and ninjas bastard waters down the term "bastard," but to the point that it's meaningless, I'm not 100% sure I agree. I do think it's an attempt to shift the meaning to "roles that screw up other roles", in which case you can probably argue that
EVERY
power role would be bastard in some way.
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Post Post #137 (isolation #9) » Thu May 21, 2015 6:14 pm

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 135, kuribo wrote:When I think "bastard," I don't think of things that can be foreseen such as "oh, I may have an innocent on a Godfather," or "Oh, I may not be a Sane Cop."

And that's not what it was ever intended to mean.
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Post Post #146 (isolation #10) » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:14 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

Being the person that conceived the voyeur, I'd like to see that thread. I feel your way slightly weakens the voyeur from how I usually mod it, but weakening a role is not necessarily bad.
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Post Post #169 (isolation #11) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:17 pm

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 162, chamber wrote:A gunsmith that operates like that may or may not be normal, but is certainly bad design. It's bad design for the same reason things like framers/paranoid cops/insane cops are bad; when you get a guilty it's the right move to lynch them, even when that guilty isn't certain, it's still much more certain than reads are.

Define "bad". I agree that sanities don't belong in a normal, but I think their only other real problem is that they're out of vogue. (I know that begs the question of why, but that's not what I'm arguing.) Framers and sanities are designed to break the follow-the-cop strategy. Yes, other ways to do it exist, even if we limit ourselves to the framework of what is normal, but absolutes rarely work well in Mafia. Framers might balance well for a particular game; they might not.
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Post Post #171 (isolation #12) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:08 pm

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 170, Ether wrote:I think you'd have to outright say "This game contains a tailor" now (or put that warning into the cop's role PM) to make it work, but I'd love to see that happen.

I think that warning would gimp the Mafia too much for my liking. Something like "your results are not guaranteed to be correct" if we wanted to allow things that mess with the cop investigation again?
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Post Post #185 (isolation #13) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:07 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

Solution to the problem: Take Mastin's idea :P
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Post Post #262 (isolation #14) » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:35 pm

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 259, N wrote:Godfather has been moved to the blacklist.

And ninja hasn't been? That's essentially the tracker/watcher counterpart to the godfather. I believe they should be either both normal or both explicitly not normal.
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Post Post #279 (isolation #15) » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:05 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

I
REALLY
like #2 best. I feel like #3 is a severe disadvantage to scum and defeats an essential purpose to the roles in question, and is the one I'm least in favor of. I can live with #1, but banning the godfather strengthens the cop considerably since all his results can now be believed (which, in the NRG's defense, sounds like their motivation for banning GF in the first place). That leaves the ascetic as the only normal role that can effectively counter it.
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Post Post #287 (isolation #16) » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:58 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

...Yeah. I'm in favor of leaving non-sane cop explicitly not normal.
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Post Post #299 (isolation #17) » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:14 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 298, Sméagol wrote:Why is a Godfather blacklisted, but the Miller isn't?
I don't feel the need to have either blacklisted, but this seems inconsistent to me.

Good point.
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