Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: CoM

It's super late here, catch you tomorrow!

[Bellaphant]

Hey Ollie, what do you think of kt?

[Bellaphant]

....because? Serious question, I want an actual answer

[Bellaphant]

@com, does that mean you think kt is more likely to be town? Because if not, that seems like a weird vote when there's already a aagon.

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: Jmo

Care to explain this?

UNVOTE:

Also, your request for a tunnel confuses me: do you think Ow is town?

[Bellaphant]

No to which of the two questions?

[Bellaphant]

yeah I also hadn't read your post. Get over yourself.

Assuming you just now remembered this game, why throw down an RVS vote as opposed to offer your thoughts on the non-serious content in the thread?

not RVS.

24/25 <--- who states suspicion only to come back literally an hour later to put a vote down? I could understand if it were a few minutes later and you were like "oh ya, I forgot to vote him actually" but no, he calls him tryhard scum, which is like ¿qué? cause like one thing is saying he was to lengthy in his response to a naked vote, (which I don't even get I mean when did post length become alignment-indicative) but another is calling him tryhard scum based on one post.

Mm, benefit of the doubt is he was waiting for a response from me, but it was super weird. Kt's defensiveness is not something I've seen from them, but I've played with them twice and were an easy mislynch once and a modkill the second time.

One of the votes on him is prolly scum.

[Bellaphant]

Yo,

Sorry, I'm rusty at this so I was maybe not being as definite as I could've been. I did initially think Ollie's response to the vote was iffy,as if he'd come back to back his point up, in order to look more 'town', but I can accept that it was an after thought. His recent posting has also been better, although I dunno if he's confident enough as scum to make the voting joke he just made. Like, it's super cheeky.

@ollie, can you link me to a recent scum game?

In terms of votes on KT, iirc he was a day 1 mislynch the game I played with him, although I'm glad to say he's settled in a bit. I wasn't trying to be vague, 'one of the votes on him is scum and I'm not saying which', but 'due to my past experience with KT, I can easily see scum pushing a mislynch and with four votes, it's probable that one may be'.

However, I'm also super dissapointed with the hydra.

VOTE: CoM

@killthestory, your reads list wasn't half bad, can you come chat to me?
@ocean, I'm curious as to your responses to 215. Also, do you have any questions for me?

[Bellaphant]

@ollie, 175 was super cheeky.

@kill, mainly the reasons behind those reads. I'm curious as to your thought processes.

[Bellaphant]

@ocean, I asked for Ollie's scum games (not town!) to see if he was the kind of cheeky player who'd make a joke like that. The answer is 'yes', but they've been a tonne more aggressive in their other games, going after the guy who tunnelled him, being a lot more in your face than he has been here.

I've been asked for reads:

Kill the story: A ridiculously gut town-read, mainly for the readlists post. I like the pressure on com as well.
Nos: Early push on Ollie was good, calm under pressure from Ocean, seems to have an eye out for detail (178 192 227). Is having similar issues with acron as I am. Town
Acron: scum. From the early PL weirdness, overreaction and repetition in 164, inconsistent responses to magna (not enough progression), I hate 254, engages ocean and nos (my strong town-reads) in a circular argument, seems to have opposite reads to me.
Ocean. Super town. Confident early game, some good posting 39. Actively scum-hunting. Easy town.
Lowell: conflicted, scum-lean. Some of his posts (first mention of COm scum, little push on magna) are good, but he's magicked up some scum-reads, still thinks kt is scum for 'reasons', doesn't push these reads.
Ollie: alarm bells early game, has massively improved his content now, a few slight twinges but I'm happier now I've read the scum-games. town-lean
Magna: Opening push on nos is super dumb, but dumb/= scum. I was iffy on this slot, but it improves in iso. Is looking for game progress, even though I'm finding it harder to agree with/follow all their points. null-town
Com: scum. lack of engagement, lack of consistancy, not using their vote, and I'm pretty familiar with klingon's scum game.
Imperium: null-town. Asking the right questions, I should talk more to them.
jmola - super awks in places, but I like his town-read as scum point 206. vote is not terrible. null.
kt: ugh, he was town he last had an early day 1 like this. I could also do with a look at his scum meta.

Plus we have two inactive slots.

@Imperium, where's your head at with kill the story? what are your thoughts on nos?

[post=v/la 'til Monday, it's my birthday]v/la 'til Monday, it's my birthday[/post]

[Bellaphant]

Klingoncelt here. A couple things I want to touch on:

I'm still bugged by 35. Ocean jumping in to defend KT sounds just like a Mafia trying to diffuse suspicion on a teammate.


In post 325 I said "Bellaphant - If she replaces out, she's Scum. Guaranteed."

Bellaphant hasn't posted in over 5 days. She is not V/LA.

This disappearing is how she plays as Scum, I've been in some games with her.

Yeeaaaaaaaah about that, I went vla in 291 which was my last post. Nice to see you are reading and paying attention...

I find it super interesting that you and kt have jumped on me while I was vla and a push on me seems to have been a tonne of your content.

Catching up properly now.

[Bellaphant]

Page 13-16

307 Well, one of the heads my vla....

I have no idea what the jim/sevra mess was about


325 is actually not a terrible reads list. I'm not sure if it's a particularly controversial one, though. Looks like hydra dissonance around the imperium read too. In 326 Acron has issue with mine for being safe, but doesn't seem to have the same issue with Com's (does have other issues, though).

328 @lowell's reads list is o.0. Does he come back to this at any point?

@jim, 344 I can link you to history mafia? At the same time that game was going on he also got mine and his slots modkilled by outing my alignment accidentally, soo...

@imp, 351 I asked about nos to see if others were having a similar thought process and kts because I wanted an outside opiniion on my gut!read. I also want to understand more about your thought processes generally.

Ugh, though, I totally misremembered my other game with ocean - he was scum. I'll admit some of this was a meta-read: we argued the fuck with him and got nked - I just remembered being impressed with his play. Thanks for the headsup.

magna and imperium look townier

Dinner - will finish this tonight.

[Bellaphant]

@ocean 397

1. It was mainly the low hanging fruit thing and the issues around tone. I know you seemed to think magna was being intransigent, but I understood their frustration.
2. Not much, although day 1 I tend to ask more questions.
3. Ok, I didn't explain this well: reading through the game as a whole I found myself not agreeing with magna's points, but when I looked at them in iso I saw a tonne of thought progression and engagement - a lot of the time I look at whether I can see a sustained thought process, rather than if I directly agree with it. The frustration with acron seemed real, 162 was good, they pushed me for follow up about kt
4. imperium looked like they wanted progress through the thread and were engaging with a reasonable amount of players. I've answered the second half of this elsewhere


kts wants my lynch for ....reasons. Some of them about information. information lynches are super lame.

@ocean 429 from other games? K, but it'll be tomorrow if you still want this.

436 from ollie is a weird vote

@kts, what is 475 about?

lowell continues to not impress.

@ocean, I had company. also, mishmash is not a mafia game. and we played in micro 550, I was in the froggaphant hydra http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=64262

[Bellaphant]

Caught up, vote staying.

also, imperium said they felt snubbed by me and I just realised it's tammy! hi tammy! wanna come soul read me?

[Bellaphant]

Sure.

So we get the PL issue first, which he goes on to justify in 43, 46 53and 91 (all consectutive posts) and it isn't 'til 91 that the idea of 'some hyperbole' comes up. 251 when he's being challenged on it we get

If I was being 100% genuine in those statements, my vote would still be on KainTepes. I'm not one for self-meta, but I have never and will never endorse a policy lynch to the extent of actually seeing it carried out. Consider my first few RVS posts as a mixture of RVS and frustration of playing with KainTepes in my recently ended game.

which seems super fake.

my other issues are:


164 the repitition here looks super fake, and we also get the opinion that 'people going at each other' makes it easier for scum to hide, but the conversation with mag he doesn't seem to be moving forward, especially as they start by saying magna might be 'overeager town'. The paranoai over the vote in 189 and then distancing himself from it (which nos picked up on). he still has a weirdly open stance on mag in 212 "That can be helpful for town, but if you're not scum, learn when to reign it in or you'll tunnel us straight to hell." and his relaxation about the tunnel doesn't make sense with his concern over the day 1 lynch. I agreed with mag's points around how he wants to be viewd by the town 254. The one thing I agree with is that it's easier to forget a name when iso-ing, and magna continuing to push over that is weird, but acron sems to be pushin that magna could be scummy for noticing it - even though we've had the discussing over noticing your name in a list super early in rvs
. 256 bout low hanging fruit seems super weasley to me. I also didn't like in Post 268 we're rehasing an agurment over the first 'six -posts' instead of moving forward. There's a lack of consistent movement in a sensible direction.

irt to lowell: firstly, my role pm, secondly the push on kt (eaaaaasy bait), immediate townread on magna, imp, ollie, kts, scum-reads with no reasoning: I had like ten posts this morning to his 18, but I feel I've provided some content (and more now), rather than the lack of info with lowell.

[Bellaphant]

Huh, kt was in that micro too!

[Bellaphant]

I agreed with mag's points around how he wants to be viewd by the town 254.

I don't follow. Acryon was the one who said MagnaOfIllusion is overly concerned with how he is perceived by the town. What exactly are you agreeing with here?

256 bout low hanging fruit seems super weasley to me. I also didn't like in Post 268 we're rehasing an agurment over the first 'six -posts' instead of moving forward. There's a lack of consistent movement in a sensible direction.

What do you mean "super-weasley?" You just repeated what MagnaOfIllusion said about "weasel language." How was Acryon being weasley? Also, he was "rehashing the argument" because I was pushing him on it. Would you expect him to not respond?

irt to lowell: firstly, my role pm, secondly the push on kt (eaaaaasy bait), immediate townread on magna, imp, ollie, kts, scum-reads with no reasoning: I had like ten posts this morning to his 18, but I feel I've provided some content (and more now), rather than the lack of info with lowell.

If you found Lowell's push on KTthecreeper scummy, why didn't you say anything about it then? You only said "

one of the votes on him is probably scum

" (Post 76). When specifically asked which vote you found scummy, you were still vague about it "

I can easily see scum pushing a mislynch and with four votes, it's probable that one may be'

(Post 223).

Ok, trying this again because I'm obviously not communicating.

In 191 Acron says he's super town. He later, as you say, pops of MoI for being 'too concerned' with how he looks and again passes off something as he's said as not totally serious. Looks like distancing language. The points about contradiction were what I liked.

Mmm, weasel language may've been what moi called it, but I'm not sure why I can't agree with that? I've already made it clear I was coming down on their side of things. My issue is he starts of by saying he was low hanging fruit, then he wasn't, then he isn't, and then it doesn't matter anyway. I just feel there's a lot of distancing between what was said between one time and the next around the same core idea.

IRt lowell, the 'one of the votes is probably scum' was a general comment, based off of my experiences playing with kt before. The thread has moved on a tonne and you now seem to be implying that it's scummy that I a) had an opinion based in supposition and b) added this supposition to other concerns I have about lowell and then the suspicion got stronger. At the time I obviously wasn't going to be thinking 'I know one of these votes is obvs!scum but i'm not going to say who', more 'I don't like this situation because of my previous experience'. And then other shit happened.

Also, before I go trawl back through the two games I was linked, why do you want it? It's there for you if you want it - and it'd be a dumb thing for me to make up. If I can get behind your answer, I'll do it.

I fail to see how this is her hedging.

You do? Please explain why repeatedly saying that there is scum on a wagon but doing nothing in relation to tracking down said scum from their play re: the wagon isn’t hedging against giving actual reads.

I hadn't done much of anything before I came back of vla. I hope I've explained this above.

I fail to see how this is her hedging.

You do? Please explain why repeatedly saying that there is scum on a wagon but doing nothing in relation to tracking down said scum from their play re: the wagon isn’t hedging against giving actual reads.

I only saw her say there was scum on the kt wagon once, but saying there's scum on a wagon and not identifying scum on the wagon isn't hedging. It's not following through.

Again, maybe it'd help if you asked me this question a different way, because I'm struggling to explain differently.

^^^ this is a scummy post

doing exactly what he said he would do previously is scummy?

I like this.

I'm incredibly skeptical of SnarkySnowman putting me as sole confirmed scum with current levels of content from my slot.

Feels like an attempt to generate a counterwagon. CoM flips scum that's my first priority.

But this rings alarm bells. Are you going to be surprised when com flips scum?
What do you think about the lack of counter wagons?

[Bellaphant]

Can we hold of day's end 'til I've responded to peeps and re-done my meta dive?

Also, congrats abr.

[Bellaphant]

My issue is he starts of by saying he was low hanging fruit, then he wasn't, then he isn't, and then it doesn't matter anyway. I just feel there's a lot of distancing between what was said between one time and the next around the same core idea.

No. The argument goes like this:

Spoiler: Low Hanging fruit argument

1. Acryon: (MagnaOfIllusion) actually seems to be jumping on low-hanging fruit and seems overly concerned with his standing amongst the town.

2. MagnaOfIllusion: I want to highlight the “Low hanging fruit” comment. He’s suggesting I’m attacking him for being a soft target for some reason. Yet he doesn’t see himself as one – he brags about not ever being lynched Day 1. So are we supposed to believe he is both simultaneously an easy target (intimating I am scum pushing on weak Town) and not one?

3. Acryon: At the time I was a low hanging fruit. I think once you get a closer look you'll realize I'm not, but that doesn't mean I wasn't at the time within the context of the game.

4. MagnaOfIllusion: Um, whut? So you were Low Hanging Fruit but you are not? I can't wrap my head around the level of self-contradiction here. Either you are an easy target who can get pushed for questionable reasons or you aren't. The fact that you were trying to position yourself as such in a soft attempt to attack me I find suspect given your response here.

5. Acryon: You're acting as if 1) perception doesn't matter and 2) status doesn't change. As for perception, being or not being low-hanging fruit has a lot to do with the overall town's perception of someone as such. Low-hanging fruit doesn't have a strict definition in mafia since the game is so fluid and differs so much from game to game. In the situation of me, I was a low-hanging fruit to you at the time because I hadn't had a real chance to even post something non-RVS yet you jumped on me for not doing so. Players are not strictly low-hanging fruit or not low-hanging fruit.

6. MagnaOfIllusion: I'm acting as if you were using weasel language to attack me, that I called you out on it, and now the phrase "Low Hanging Fruit" is some nebulous, ever-changing concept that varies from post to post. Fact is that you were using language calculated to have a negative connotation (translated - MoI is attacking me because I'm an easy target) while not being able to justify how that stance makes any sense. If you were at that point as easy a target as you say then my vote on you would clearly not be using such "bad" logic as you keep claiming. You can't be have been simultaneously be an easy target and being attacked with terrible logic that wouldn't hold up to scrutiny at the same time.

7. Acryon: What? I already pointed to how it made sense. I appeared as "low-hanging fruit" at the time since I had only commented on the policy lynch essentially, and my later posts where I didn't address anything else made it look like I wasn't reading the game. Rather than thinking "Hm, it's only his first day posting; let's see what he has tomorrow", you demonized me as purposefully not commenting on what all had happened within the game. You saw my lack of posts relative to the rest of the game and turned it into --> "Lacks any engagement in the game beyond the Policy Lynch issue."

Show me precisely where Acryon was doing a lot of distancing between one idea and the next. I strongly suspect you are bs'ing your explanations and riding on MagnaOfIllusion's coattails. I want specifics here.

Also, before I go trawl back through the two games I was linked, why do you want it? It's there for you if you want it - and it'd be a dumb thing for me to make up. If I can get behind your answer, I'll do it.

I want to verify that you did in fact read the games like you say you did. I'm not going to assume that you did if you don't provide evidence of it. First, you delayed providing this information. Now you are asking me to justify why I'm asking when it's completely obvious. Then you claim that you'll only provide it if you can "get behind my reason." If you really did look at those games like you say you did, this should be trivially easy.

Ok, I'm not going over this again, because you seem to be unable to differentiate a different reading of a situation to a scummy one. I'm also bored of staring at the arguement from a million pages ago, rather than focusing on what is changing in the game.



Acron makes the first point in 189 that he's never lynched day 1. He is also, at the same time, identifying himself as 'low hanging fruit' as part of an attack on moi. But he then states in 254 that he doesn't believe he is. He also doesn't seem concerned with being 'lhf' in 191. I am then even more confused by the way it doesn't seem to matter whether players are or are not lhf in 256. So, to me it goes Ac: 'Haha don't vote me, I'm never lynched day 1' (confidence in his play) then 'you jumped on lhf' (not confidence) then 'I am not lhf' (confidence) then 'it doesn't matter anyway' and then he uses lfh to suggest moi 'demonised' him for his content. Why doesn't this look like a contradictory attitude to you? If he was bothered about looking like lhf, I'd've prolly gone with 'yeah, I understand my content's been a bit shit, but I'm working on it'. The whole argument looks set up to make moi look bad over an idea where she can't win. I've explained other distancing around the pl in detail to you.

Firstly, I can't work out how to link to posts, so I'll give you some edited snippets.
I asked you why because it seems pointless for you to assume I'm lying, but, whatever. Admittedly some of this was in response to pressue, but the whole thing in very tonally different.

Spoiler:

'& you have the audacity to have a go at me for an over reaction! btw you're the one who has quick hammered a townie who'd voted for you (OMGUS, er didn't you accuse me of that?) in this game Whiskers. In contrast I've voted for somebody & you've disagreed with my reasoning. I'd say you're winning when it comes to shitty play. ' 'So what? If we had a vig who was forced to shoot the worst player on day 1 then you'd be dead by now. Shit play is no guarantee of anything. He hasn't given us enough to vote on him yet.' 'IN YOUR FUCKING OPINION. I don't know why you can't have people disagreeing with you about what scum tells are but I don't wanna talk about that any more, too many posts centred around that from you, taking up too much of my attention.' 'Death, so why the fuck are you asking for a modkill if you think it's unlikely? Pointless post then & you could have asked the mod via PM. The slot is also statistically more likely to be town so you're scumming the place up with this mod kill bull shit. Why are you objecting to me saying there should be a replacement so badly?' 'Me getting satisfaction from your death isn't gonna do us any good you clown. 's soon as you've come under significant pressure, you've hopped on the largest wagon. Love it.' 'Well done on outing the doc people! Are town even gonna have any roles left at the rate this game is going? At least I've got my role out there which is more than Victor managed.' 'Yeah save it farside, your constant buddying up to Golden Mole is sickening.' 'Derpa derp is actually quite a fun nickname for you, I'll stick with that, thanks Derpa derp. You gave a list once then lurked the rest of the time. That's like getting a BJ off your girlfriend once a year, just not good enough is it. Well done for unvoting me, do you want a medal? I guess you have to look like you actually care'

sev is town.

I don't see it. Why do you say that

We never got a decent answer to this.

Also, MoI's share in the push on me and particularly his last reaction feel incredibly fake.
He strikes me as the kind of person who, as scum, would go out on a limb defending his partner like this.
Major FoS on them as well, but obviously it's not as certain as my Snarky scumread.

Pre-associatives before a flip, ewww. Also, @sev, there are questions for you in 607

no sarcasm, i genuinely liked your early play and pushes earlier today; I thought that you were aggressive as hell and also right as hell and was still picking up on decent things until you had that I THINK COM IS TOWN and then other reads i didn't like meltdown. if you're around and i'm gone tomorrow, bring the old killthestory back.

VOTE: CoM

Church is getting lynched today anyway. No time to switch. Sort of sad to see it coming, but I need to justify myself.

Can you expand on 'justifying yourself'?

SS is usually kind of a pushover but he can really fight back when he's under pressure.
I don't feel any backbone in his push on me and I really do feel like he went for me because he thought I was an easy target.

It's especially strong feelings considering how he is continuing to hold a scumread but he can't really throw anything at me anymore.
I don't think he expected the level of pushback that he got and I think it totally threw him off.

Was it pushback from you, mainly, that you think threw him?

[Bellaphant]

At this point, Lowell is probably very easily my third, but past that there's Jim whose posting I sort of liked when he was around and then the group of players who I'm town reading but not confidently (and hence could probably see them as scum), which is the mass I'll sort out with our deadline extension.

Lowell was the first person who brought up the possibility of ChurchOfMercy being mafia (who you claim to be 95% sure on). He was also the second vote on the wagon. Is he bussing?

Do you think he isn't? I'm kinda wondering if he wasn't hella surprised by the reactions he got from it, when there might've been easier votes out there (like me! ;P)

If CoM dare be scum Lowell is could be scum. I thought about it, and it seems somewhat likely.

What about Lowell without any associatives?

Wait. Are the things you really like and town read about him because his reads match yours? And what you don't like is where your reads deviate?

Oh boy.

Super glad you got into this.

Yeah, and the rush to end the day when it's objectively better to get more information and stances from Jim's replacement and wait for Bellaphant to show up again (I had outstanding questions to her) was pretty bad too.

Stuff I want to get done before ending the day:

1. See Imperium's views on the gamestate as a whole that they planned to post.
2. Get Bellaphant's response.
3. Get Ollie's updated opinion on everything that happened.
3. Wait for Jim's replacement to catch up and post thoughts.

Ugh, stuff like this is super towny.


@imp

40I can only think I mis-read the vote, because I clearly have asked him why he's voting away from the established wagon...which is the one he's voting on. 0.0 I was like 8am, I think I read a vote for ocean.
irt nos, she's questioning a statement ollie made as fact without much evidence (irt me hedging) and 192 was a decent question as there was almost 0 pressure on acron. It caught my eye at the time, and I am bound to identify more with people who catch the shame shit I do.
326 I wondered what was different between mine and coms, considering coms was literally the post before. com and I have recipricol scum-reads and I thought it would've been picked up on. If acron hadn't been posting literally straight after it it mayn't have pinged me, ill be honest, but it was and it just seemed strange.
With lowell's reads, i've already explained why kt is shitty, easy scum-read for scum, I know I'm town, and by that point he'd mentioned me twice times in iso: one about rvs (just a quote) and 252 because I 'very much looks like a player who just wants to look like s/he's interacting--asking and answering pointless questions'. The only vaguely decent thing about this post is the com scum-read he acknowledges two of the three have scum-reads on each other, but just files it under 'bussing' (without looking at why: I think I maxed out at three votes, so in this world where com is my scum partner I'm not sure what they getting out of it). if he's scum with com, he was at l-2. I think at the time I was at 0 votes.

[Bellaphant]

@sev, are you ignoring me for....reasons?

[Bellaphant]

Ollie's vote on me is opportunistic and terrible. It's my experience that the first person to point out "Lowell has been dodging, let's get him" in invariably scum. THIS LOW-HANGING FRUIT FIGHTS BACK!

VOTE: Ollie. This is both OMGUS and correct.

strong townreads from huer and snarky. ocean wishes he gave off town-reads, but he doesn't. Mostly just try-hard reads. He could go either way.

Can you explain this for me? Last I heard, com was 'bussing' me.

Like, you've never explained this.

@Sev, I asked you a bunch of questions yesterday and you said you weren't interested in talking. You gonna bother now?

[Bellaphant]

Shit, sorry. Rl sucks balls right now, I'm gonna try and catch up right now and if not I'll speak to kelbris.