Mini 515 - The Pine Barrens - Game Over!

[Bookitty]

/confirm

[Bookitty]

Vote: ryan

because he's trying a little too hard to look innocent by being from Iowa.

[Bookitty]

Voting for Bookitty make Bookitty feel like Boohookitty.

[Bookitty]

I think I know you from somewhere. That makes you suspicious in my book!

So you only know suspicious people? That's suspicious in itself!

unvote; vote mcpaltp

[Bookitty]

I note the linking between hasdgfas and opie, where hasdgfas basically directed opie's play. Shamelessly obvious!

[Bookitty]

If there was no need for throwing around suspicion, we would be playing a different game, I think.

[Bookitty]

Random phase of voting, and having fun with that while it lasts?

Unless you're suggesting that you took it seriously, in which case, no, I wasn't serious.

It's fine that you're from Iowa. Not "too townie" at all.

[Bookitty]

Do you realise what the "directing" of opie's play was? He told him to get an avatar, and opie complied. I thought that funny, and commented it by way of the post you noted.

It's hardly relevant to the game, though, at least in my view. Do you disagree?

[Bookitty]

Yes. Let me be clear.

As a joke

, I called what hasdgfas did "directing" opie. I did not think any reasonable person would take that seriously, considering the subject on which the direction occurred, and the random voting phase of the game still ongoing.

I did forget to insert the /humour tag before and after. My bad.

[Bookitty]

I'm not complaining. Suspect all you want, ryan

[Bookitty]

In the interest of getting out of the random voting stage, I'm going to

unvote

. My vote on mcpaltp was a joke vote.

I think lacking a sense of humour is a nulltell, but pretending to lack a sense of humour is a sign of insincerity and a scumtell. However, I laugh at nearly anything, so it's not as though I have a refined and sophisticated sense of humour. It's possible ryan just didn't think it was very funny.

Do you think that laughing at nearly anything, even the dumbest jokes, is more a sign of 1) blatant stupidity or 2) extreme defence mechanisms? If 2, is it a scumtell? Why would town have any need to be so defensive anyway?

[Bookitty]

ryan has PMed me regarding replacing into Open 41 on October 8. I didn't feel I could do so at the time, due to having replaced into several games.

ryan might be scum. I am not vouching for his innocence. But I will attest to the fact that he sent me a PM regarding replacing into that game, and I know he is actively seeking replacements.

So while I can readily believe that you received such a PM, Boggzie (I see no reason for you to lie about this) I don't believe that it means what you think it means. In any case, I've received no PMs from ryan since the one I just mentioned, which was well before the start of this game.

[Bookitty]

Okay, Boggzie, since I know for a fact that I received no PMs from ryan, and since I don't regard anything I've posted as a defence of ryan, and since I think that such metagaming things are utter crap anyway...

Keeping in mind that a one-for-one exchange, scum for town, is utterly disastrous for scum (I'm sure you know this), if ryan doesn't come up scum, I'm going to be certain that you are. I'm sure that I won't be alone in this. And no amount of "Oh, I guess I just screwed up, then!" on your part is going to change my mind.

So, with that said... the only way I see to clear my own name is if ryan is lynched, and comes up town. And I hate that, because I don't want to lynch town, but that's the position this has created.

I am going to ask, though. Are you aware, Boggzie, that if this is just a gambit on your part, you're likely to be lynched tomorrow if you're wrong?

[Bookitty]

You're right, Boggzie. I did receive one well before this game. And I should have said I received no PMs from ryan regarding this game.

That said, I'm about to do something I never expected to do, which is place a vote on someone hoping that they are town. I see no way to clear my name otherwise.

unvote; vote ryan

[Bookitty]

That is one of the scummiest lines I've read on this site. You are willing to sacrifice a townie in order to clear yourself?

I don't know that you're a townie. I only know my own status. I'll sacrifice a person of unknown status in order to save a guaranteed townie every time, yes, I will. As should any pro-town person. If you're town, and you are willing to sacrifice yourself for someone of unknown status, then you're an idiot.

What is your damage anyway, ryan? You're like the angriest little man in the world.

[Bookitty]

I was more referring to you being all angry about an obvious joke to start with and continuing being angry throughout the game to the extent that it seems you're taking it really personally.

I agree that the metagame thing sucks, since we both know it's not true, but the only way to prove it's not true is for one of the three of us to die, I guess. So I don't understand the level of anger you're showing. And I'm not sure Boggzie is LYING, either. I think he's wrong. I don't KNOW he's wrong, but I think he is. I think you sent him an unsolicited PM about replacing into your game, much as you had sent me one when I posted that I would do some replacing... and that you realised you'd missent it and withdrew it. That's what I THINK, but I don't know it. And Boggzie may honestly think what he says he thinks. He might be mistaken, and not lying at all.

Taking someone's word over another is what this game is about, really, or rather, deciding whose word is good, and whose word is scummy. Hard evidence is difficult to find. Rarely does someone say, accidentally, "Oops, I'm scum, lynch me!" But if you're going to get angry whenever anyone does something unfair, makes a mistake, tells a lie, hell, tells a joke... you're going to be angry too much of the time, and people are going to ask you...

hey! What's your damage?

Just my opinion. As always, I could be wrong.

[Bookitty]

Okay, first off, I do not know that ryan is town at all. But I know for certain that Boggzie's theory about how ryan was pm-ing ME because we are scumbuddies is not correct.

I was considering voting ryan because of his weird overreaction to my joke early on, and then all this exploded. I don't KNOW that he's scum, but I don't know that about anyone. I had thought he might be, but I also believed his explanation about the pm, because it made sense to me. Then ryan's weird insistence that Boggzie was lying was really suspicious to me, because it seemed pretty clear to me that the worst that Boggzie can be guilty of is being wrong (assuming there WAS a pm, which ryan hasn't denied).

But if ryan is scum, then Boggzie's allegations regarding me seem true, and I know they aren't, so... I have no means to clear myself, because Boggzie's accusations stick unless ryan is lynched and ryan is town, and ... I don't want town to be lynched. But I do want to refute these allegations, and I have no way to do so. It's so oddly ooc/metagame that I have no means of defense. The only solution is for SOMEONE to be lynched, and even then I see no means of determining who is lying about this, because the catalyst is something that can't be proved within this thread (or perhaps ever).

But it's true, there's nothing I can do to clear myself in this case short of dying or being investigated. I'm implicated by Boggzie's comments about ryan, and I'm implicated regardless of which one is truthful or correct, and regardless of which one I find more convincing. So it was a fairly clever gambit by Boggzie, really. Two people with one accusation, with no proof on his part required. I have to applaud that, on a game level, if it is a gambit and there was no pm.

To clarify, though. I did get a pm from ryan, on the date I said, regarding replacing into his game, which I did not do because I'm currently involved in several games. I did NOT get a pm from ryan regarding this game at any time. The only pm I have received regarding this game was from Rishi, and I think it was only the one.

And, if you lynch me, and I come up town (as I will), have you gained any further information for the town? Will that clear Ryan? Will it clear Boggzie? Will it incriminate either of them?

I stand by my statements. I don't think Boggzie is lying, I think he's mistaken. I don't think ryan is lying, I think he's overreacting and I don't like him saying Boggzie is lying because, much like his reaction to my joke early on, he's overreacting in a huge way. And I have not received a pm from either of them, or any of you save Rishi, regarding THIS game.

That said, this game is weird enough and involves enough metagame stuff that I suspect you're right, I'm not all that valuable to town in this one. I don't have a clue how to proceed, or how to gauge anyone's reaction to this kind of weirdness. If ryan and/or Boggzie are town, then they're likely going to be more able to figure this situation out than I am, because I'm completely thrown by this.

So with that, I'm going to

unvote

and wait to see what develops. If I get lynched, well, I don't have any good insights about this game anyway. I'll pipe up if I have any thoughts, but at the moment, I'm stumped.

[Bookitty]

I don't know who's lying. I don't know what you learn from lynching any of us. I thought at first that if ryan was lynched, and he turned up town, that we'd know Boggzie was guilty, and we would be trading town for scum. I don't think that now, upon reflection, because I believe Boggzie is honest, but wrong. Boggzie believes ryan is scum, but I don't agree with his reasoning. I'd thought ryan was possibly scum for other reasons, but I don't think THIS case makes sense against him.

So they were honest questions, not rhetorical ones. I don't see what we learn by lynching any of the three. That said, one of them might be scum. I have no insight into which of the two is scum. If I've behaved scummily by stating my situation as honestly as I can, well, I have the excuse that the situation is not one I have encountered before nor is it one that I have any idea how to respond to. Apparently honesty was a bad idea.

I can't clear myself. Regardless of what happens, I am implicated because Boggzie says I am, because he got a notification of a pm, unread, and he thinks it must have been for me. How am I supposed to defend against that? I have no clue. It's a no-win situation for me, because I can never disprove the accusations against me. I thought if ryan were town, that it would prove the charges against me false, but apparently that doesn't matter anymore either. And I'm confused enough at this point that I can't understand why that's true. It still seems to me that if ryan is town, and proven to be so, then Boggzie's accusation of me can't stick, because ryan's pm is proven to be what he said it was. But apparently I would still be guilty even if that were true. Hmmm.

So if we're going to lynch town (and it's very possible ryan and Boggzie are both town too) it may as well be me, because I cannot defend against suspicions that do not arise from the game in progress. I don't like metagame stuff (I've voiced this before), I don't handle it well, and I don't have a clue what to do about something like this. I'm not angry, I just have no idea how to proceed.

[Bookitty]

Okay. Without getting into what's true, and what's not true...

Any statement that begins with the words "I believe" cannot be proven to be a lie, whether they be "I believe that it's possible to live only on spring water and fresh air", or "I believe the answer is pretty simple; he PM'd the wrong name from the list - he's scum. "

It can be wrong. It can be stupidly wrong. But it's not a lie, at least not a provable one. In any case I DO think Boggzie believes his theory, and in that case, no matter how wrong the statement above is...

It's NOT A LIE.

[Bookitty]

I posted before seeing yours, mcpaltp. Sorry to reiterate the point you'd already made.

[Bookitty]

To clarify, in my opinion. the only thing that ryan's death clears me of is Boggzie's charge that ryan and I were scumbuddies. Clearly that allegation was incorrect. That doesn't make me cleared or confirmed as town, though, and I shouldn't be considered so for purposes of logical deduction. (I would like it if you considered me so, but there's been no proof of it yet.)

This game has gotten off to a very bad start, and I too am waiting for some reaction on Boggzie's part. Since I didn't know how to react to the whole "metagame/out of game" nature of the accusation, I'm reluctant to judge anyone else based on how they reacted to it. It was a bad situation and made worse by the overreactions of those involved (including myself). I am in hopes that the rest of the game runs more smoothly.

[Bookitty]

I'm not certain why you're taking responsibility for this, mcpaltp. The situation was messed up, no doubt about it. But so far as I know it was not of your making.

Your comments were not over the line in my opinion. I've heard much worse. So your strange "mea culpa" attitude is not really merited.

As I read it, no one is saying you should leave the game. They are saying the way you are acting is scummy. I tend to agree. However, I'm not interested in joining any bandwagons until we have some further discussion and until Boggzie is heard from, at a minimum.

[Bookitty]

First, I don’t know how ryan turning up town would prove her innocent of Boggzie’s accusation.

Boggzie accused ryan of being scum and accidentally sending Boggzie a PM (deleted before Boggzie could read it) intended for one of his scumbuddies. The reason Boggzie implicated me is solely because my name begins with Bo, as does Boggzie's, and Boggzie theorised that ryan must have meant to send it to me instead. Boggzie felt this proved that ryan and I were scumbuddies, as a result. This was his sole reason for accusing me, so far as I know.

That is why, if ryan was not scum who had accidentally sent Boggzie a PM meant for a scumbuddy, I would be cleared of Boggzie's accusation of being said scumbuddy (though still not cleared of being scum on my own -- I've definitely NOT been confirmed town by this, nor am I trying to imply that I have).

That's how I see it anyway. If there's a flaw in my logic, please point it out.

[Bookitty]

Keeping in mind that a one-for-one exchange, scum for town, is utterly disastrous for scum (I'm sure you know this), if ryan doesn't come up scum, I'm going to be certain that you are. I'm sure that I won't be alone in this. And no amount of "Oh, I guess I just screwed up, then!" on your part is going to change my mind.

I think this is the quote you're looking for, Neko.

I also said this later, as well:

I agree that the metagame thing sucks, since we both know it's not true, but the only way to prove it's not true is for one of the three of us to die, I guess. So I don't understand the level of anger you're showing. And I'm not sure Boggzie is LYING, either. I think he's wrong. I don't KNOW he's wrong, but I think he is. I think you sent him an unsolicited PM about replacing into your game, much as you had sent me one when I posted that I would do some replacing... and that you realised you'd missent it and withdrew it. That's what I THINK, but I don't know it. And Boggzie may honestly think what he says he thinks. He might be mistaken, and not lying at all.

I just don't see scum using this blatant a gambit. Of course, then, WIFOM, maybe that's exactly why Boggzie would do it, counting on the fact that no one would believe scum would be this blatant.

Boggzie, do you remember saying this:

I've already stated that I know this is suicide if he's town.

So, ryan was town. You "knew he was scum", but he wasn't. What do you think is a reasonable response, at this point?

[Bookitty]

I've had no real idea how to approach this game. I really hate metagame things and this one was no exception. That said, I don't like lurking either, so I'm going to do some analysis.

I thought ryan might be scum. I didn't like his early reactions, and while the pm issue was confusing, I was planning on placing my vote on him before this situation occurred. So I'm not in any position to criticise anyone for voting for him, or for me.

The person I thought most likely to be town did in fact turn out to be town. Not particularly helpful, though, considering.

I don't think Boggzie is scum. I could be wrong, here, and I really don't like what he did. That said, I feel pretty strongly that this is far too risky a gambit. I think he was really wrong, but I don't think he's scum.

I don't like mcpaltp's apology... in fact, I don't like any part of mcpaltp's reaction to ryan's self-inflicted modkill. I think that ryan is responsible for ryan's own actions, and the overreaction by mcpaltp seems somewhat forced. This is where my vote is going, for now.

vote: mcpaltp

I think Elias's reasoning is faulty, and a bit forced, but I'm not seeing him as scummy at the moment.

I'm pointing a minor FOS at ThAdmiral for lurking, and another at Zakarum for this: "Very defensive hasdgfas im starting to see the connection between you and opi" because I don't see hasdgfas as being defensive, and I'd like to see the quotes that support this allegation.

[Bookitty]

Repeating over and over why you apologised does not change the fact that it sounded scummy. It sounded like an overreaction, and reiterating your explanation doesn't undo the impression it made.

That said, I'd be interested to know what you think of the other town members, and who you find most scummy among our number.

[Bookitty]

I think Elias's reasoning is faulty, and a bit forced

Could you explain why? It seems to me that the main reason you' dont like my reasoning is that it is against you.

Yes, that's right, in part. I know my alignment, so if you think I'm scum, then your reasoning is faulty. It looks like tunnel vision, and at this point, it seems a little forced to me.

[Bookitty]

Immediately after Boggzie's allegations:

Keeping in mind that a one-for-one exchange, scum for town, is utterly disastrous for scum (I'm sure you know this), if ryan doesn't come up scum, I'm going to be certain that you are. I'm sure that I won't be alone in this. And no amount of "Oh, I guess I just screwed up, then!" on your part is going to change my mind.

And after some time to think it over:

I don't know who's lying. I don't know what you learn from lynching any of us. I thought at first that if ryan was lynched, and he turned up town, that we'd know Boggzie was guilty, and we would be trading town for scum. I don't think that now, upon reflection, because I believe Boggzie is honest, but wrong. Boggzie believes ryan is scum, but I don't agree with his reasoning. I'd thought ryan was possibly scum for other reasons, but I don't think THIS case makes sense against him.

You posted this:

I also didn't like how bookitty said a town ryan would "clear my name", although I think this has already been gone over. Also your setting up of chain lynches ("

if ryan is town, i'm definately voting boggzie tomorrow

") has also been noted.

I never said this. You put it in quotes as if I did, but that's not true. I've put up the relevant quotes. So why imply that I said that by putting it in quotes? It's not even a good fabricated quote, considering that I definitely know how to spell definitely. Anyway, a quick reread of my posts will prove I NEVER said what you quoted me as saying.

unvote; vote ThAdmiral

[Bookitty]

You cannot quote the "spirit" of anything. Either something is a direct quote, or it is not.

And to fabricate a quote and attribute it to someone else in order to throw suspicion on them can not possibly be construed as pro-Town.

[Bookitty]

I probably shouldn't have put quotes around the comment, but

I wanted to make it clear that this is what she was saying

in that particular post.
Basically you are attacking me over a grammar issue.

You wanted to make it clear that I was saying something I did in fact

never

say. That's lying, and lying is not a grammar issue.

The way to make what someone else is saying clear is to actually quote it, or to analyse it without the use of fictitious quotes--not to make up some interpretation and then present it as a quote in order to mislead others.

I think I'm happy with my vote staying right where it is.

[Bookitty]

Okedoke, I'm back. I'm going to ask ThAdmiral to please be more careful when using quotes, but

I don't think he's purposely trying to cast suspicion anywhere

.

In response to that:

I also didn't like how bookitty said a town ryan would "clear my name", although I think this has already been gone over.

Also your setting up of chain lynches

("if ryan is town, i'm definately voting boggzie tomorrow") has also been noted.
...
To say that he is making something of nothing is a bit strong. Also

you got "good vibes" from bookitty, which strikes me as odd as well

.

I am intrigued by the opie-hasdgfas connection, as I am uneasy on both of these two, and am also following elias' attack on bookitty as

she is under my suspicion as well

.

And even though you later backtracked on this, the fact still remains that

at one point you were attempting to set up a chain lynch.

I differ, Neko. I think he was definitely trying to cast suspicion, specifically on me. And I think fabricating a quote from someone is at best lazy and unhelpful posting, and at worst deliberately deceptive. I don't like it, even when it's not pointed at me, and I will respond negatively when it IS pointed at me.

[Bookitty]

"Trying to set up a chain lynch" implies that I was trying to persuade others. I made no posts arguing for Boggzie to be lynched. One vote does not create a lynch. Others made similar comments, including Boggzie himself... are you arguing that Boggzie was setting up a chain lynch on himself?

(And by the way, I have never accused you of throwing around "unwarranted suspicion". I have said you were suspicious of me. I think it's right to be suspicious of anyone not confirmed town, and I confirmed that you were throwing suspicion on me when someone else said of you, "I don't think he's purposely trying to cast suspicion anywhere." You've confirmed that yourself, so I wasn't wrong, either.)

I was accused of being ryan's scumbuddy by Boggzie. My immediate reaction was that Boggzie must be scum, making up a story out of whole cloth in order to attack me. I'm not perfect, I have OMGUS tendencies just like anyone else. The only way to disprove his accusation, which basically was that ryan and I were scumbuddies and that ryan had missent a PM to Boggzie that was meant for me, was for one of us to die, or one of us to be investigated.

Upon reflection, it seemed an impossibly stupid gambit. While I knew that I was not ryan's scumbuddy, it was still possible that ryan had missent a PM meant for his real scumbuddy to Boggzie. It seemed unlikely. But it was possible. So while I knew Boggzie was wrong about me, I did not know that he was wrong about ryan. And I thought it possible it was an honest mistake, after some time to think about it.

Trying to set up a chain lynch implies a level of bandwagoning. I've not done that. Someone who was truly trying to set up a chain lynch would not back off from that because they thought the person in question might be a badly misguided innocent.

So, how would I summarise the (now) quoted post? I wouldn't. It's terse and to the point. I think it says exactly what I meant at the time. Why would you need to summarise three lines of text? Was it that difficult just to quote it in the first place?

I do find it interesting that others said roughly the same thing, as I've pointed out, yet you single me out for it, even going so far as to misquote me for it. But the fact remains: I realised I might be wrong, and I said so, well before you made any comment on the fact. I wasn't getting any "heat" about that. Everyone agreed with me, I think. Why, if I were truly trying to set up a chain lynch, would I back away from that well before I could carry through this supposed nefarious plan? Your statement there is just plain wrong.

Your logic doesn't hold water. By the same token, anyone who votes for another, and says, "If Player A is town, then I think Player B is likely scum," is setting up a chain lynch. It's not a reasonable attitude. And it discourages open discussion, which is bad for town. Admittedly, I don't think you much care about that last issue.

A last note. I wasn't going to comment this, because I thought I would wait and see who seemed opportunistic in attacking me. (I think there are valid reasons for others to suspect me -- they are wrong, but I can tell the difference between honest suspicion and made-up reasons regarding me, none the less.)

Spider Jerusalem posted this:

Upon a second reading I got this though:
Thanks to some of the accusations from Boggzie, Bookitty was implicated as a possible scum buddy with ryan. She comes out with possible other explanations for what Boggzie saw as a scum tell. Due to ryan's continued emotional posts though she seems to have a change of heart. Her problem is that there is still the onus of suspicion on her and if ryan does turn up scum she is very possibly next. So in that situation an innocent person would be torn between wanting ryan not to be scum to clear themselves and their belief that he is scum.

This could be an effort to distance herself though. However since she was caught in a damned if she did damned if she didn't position (either she defends him and is guilty that way if he is scum, or she votes and if he turns up scum it's distancing) I don't feel much of a conclusion can be drawn at this time.

When Spider Jerusalem was NKed, I did wonder if scum had been trying to set up the lynch for tomorrow. I think (I am not certain) Spider Jerusalem was killed because he defended me at a point when everyone else was angrily pointing the finger of suspicion at me, and that defence was seen as depriving scum of their next lynch target.

Your opportunistic summarisation only makes me think that more likely. I think you're trying to manufacture a case against me, but not very convincingly, in my opinion at least. And I find that very suspicious, indeed.

[Bookitty]

correction to votecount

In post 230 I unvoted mcpaltp and voted for ThAdmiral.

Thank you.

[Bookitty]

I'm in the process of analysing, in order, my primary scum suspects:

I will start with ThAdmiral. That's where my vote is, that's obviously my primary suspect. Missed nearly all of the Day One drama. I didn't like his manufactured quote, and there are other things that don't ring quite true:

(Note that this is AFTER we know that ryan was town)

Hasdfags voting for boggzie was a little weird, I felt. If I got a pm from someone during the mafia-talking time in a game I was in, that was unsent before I could read it, I would definitely go after them. To say that he is making something of nothing is a bit strong.

And this bit of wishywashy nonconfrontation:

Last night: spider jerusalem was killed by the mafia. This is understandable since he had a few good posts. If anything this may incriminate mcaltp as he did mention that he rather liked sj's posts (post 103), but this praise could have easily just been read by the mafia.

which looks like distancing to me, attacking and then withdrawing the attack in the same post.

And this:

I am intrigued by the opie-hasdgfas connection, as I am uneasy on both of these two, and am also following elias' attack on bookitty as she is under my suspicion as well.

Parroting of an argument by Zakarum, and never justified by either of them, despite requests to that effect. I find that more evidence of a connection than either has presented on their "opie-hasdgfas" connection.

[Bookitty]

Next up, Zakarum:

Follows Elias's vote without much comment:

QFT Very nice read Elias good call.

And then this:

Well.... does this mean Bookitty is off the hook or could she just have been trying to cover for herself by outing ryan.

which argues to me that he's not following any of the arguments, since he can't figure these out for himself. He's just trailing whoever is making the loudest arguments.

Quotes Elias in this post and then inexplicably points a finger of suspicion at two other people:

um, yeah. this bandwagon is moving WAY too fast for my liking.
As far as I see it, there is no proof of whether the PM was for replacement purposes or for the purpose of PMing a buddy. Personally, I'm inclined to think its the former, seeing as
1) He IS searching for a replacement in a game, and
2) Sending a pm to his buddy now would be daytalking, and I'm assuming we have no cheaters here. Obviously, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

That being said,

unvote

.
Also, Boo, PLEASE don't do that. He may be scum, he may not, but the fact that he sent a pm to someone that MAY have been intended for you is certainly not enough for me to think you're scum, and if the rest of the town thinks otherwise, then the quality of play in this town is kind of questionable. (aka, you should NOT get lynched based on that alone).

More later.

Very defensive hasdgfas im starting to see the connection between you and opi.

FOS: Hasdfas and opi

Which makes no sense, and is NEVER explained (unless some halfhearted comment, much later, about hasdfgas claiming Elias never defended ryan is considered an explanation). However, there is this:

I told you Neko i check the forums to much and I'm used to fast games on a different site. SO when someone goes a whole day without talking about it that to me is a long time. I did read his posts and if you look regardless if ryan was scum or not SJ was giving him a chance to explain himself like a townie should instead of pushing him and potentially fabricating a story. I'm just saying at this point we have very little to go on and this is what is standing out.

And yet he never calls out ThAdmiral for not posting, nor does he even seem to notice hasdgfas's questions.

And this series of quotes:

If you read what I said was that I mean no offence I am just trying to see what kind of a rise we can get see if anyone feels the same way or has something they wanted to add. I didn’t mean to look like I was backing off I meant to just say don’t take it personally I am just putting it out there for discussion.

I thought he was being a to apologetic. Ryan offed himself couldn't handle the pressure plus before I wrote that it had already been mentioned that it was coming off scummy by others I was just showing my agreement.

I agree with this very strongly although i will wait until Boggzie has a chance to defend himself before I place my vote. I also don't like the attacks on Thadmiral. I feel he is just a scapegoat because of so little information. Although he hasn't posted much I don't think he is scum and i think the quote was just a mistake.

Which are wishywashy and seem designed to distance even from his own expressed opinions. He defends ThAdmiral, albeit weakly, and criticises others for similar behaviours without ever noticing the inconsistency in his own position.

I think with some degree of confidence that ThAdmiral and Zakarum are likely scumbuddies.

I'll post more later, I hope.

[Bookitty]

Third in a series:

The case against mcpaltp isn't quite as strong as the previous two, in my view. He makes some fairly wishywashy statements at first, seemingly leaving himself an out regarding the ryan situation:

This is day one. It would be not so bright to claim so strongly on someone unless it's a gambit or you have really great proof. This, admittedly WIFOM-y logic, coupled with ryan's OMGUS response makes me suspicous of ryan.

Then this, which just seems a little odd:

Yeah, seriously. Listen, everybody: you should never, ever vote for someone unless you think that they are scum. It's like pointing a gun at someone. This is what scum do. If I didn't think that ryan was scum, I'd be voting for you in a heartbeat.

I wish I had two votes.

Oh, and ryan may be right, but I still think he's scum.

Elias already pointed out the directing of town opinion. Not a strong tell, but still a scumtell.

A great deal of justification of his vote on ryan. More justification than I would have thought necessary, really. And then this:

Seriously, are you a jester or something? I wish I could vote for you more than once. If you flip town, I'll have egg on my face, but as of now I am super confident in my position. I am 99.9% convinced you are scum at this point.

Then mcpaltp makes a pretty mild joke, under the circumstances, and has a fit of overreaction about it.

Oh god, what have I done. I'm really really sorry, and if everyone thinks that was too mean I'll asked to be replaced. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I've just had a bad day and I'm kind of on edge.

Which seems a bit extreme, considering the level of vitriol ryan was sharing around to everyone, and seems a bit forced to me, "like the elaborations of a bad liar", to quote someone very smart. This was before we knew ryan was innocent, and it nearly bespeaks a knowledge that ryan would come up town, and a fear that this would be seen as townie-baiting in retrospect.

Then we're into the mea culpa stuff that's been well covered. I don't see anything really scummy lately.

I think that's enough from me for now. I have a couple of other minor suspicions, but these were the most serious. As always, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Bookitty]

hasdgfas:

What do you think of the possibility that ThAdmiral and Zakarum are scumbuddies? I'm somewhat leaning in that direction at the moment.

[Bookitty]

It was an honest question. I was afraid that my own perspective was tainted with OMGUS, so I wanted to ask someone who had no reason to feel that way, so far as I could see, to get an objective viewpoint.

I've listed my analysis of my three main suspects, and so it's clear who they are. The order varies, and I'm not sure at all that I'm right, but that's where I stand right now, and I've posted my reasoning for it. If you disagree, I invite you to pick apart my logic. It's always possible I've made an error, or am just plain wrong. I clearly don't think that I am, but I don't deny the possibility.

[Bookitty]

Rereading this, I realised I didn't answer your question (duh!)... I thought there was a connection there. It was tenuous, at best, and I felt I might be biased. Hence my question.

[Bookitty]

I think people are starting to go a bit over the top with the whole "lets jump on zakarum because he hasn't been able to defend himself" thing.

How precisely was anyone to know that Zakarum "hasn't been able to defend himself"? I think most of the arguments against him occurred well before anyone knew he had sought replacement, as he did not ask to be replaced within the thread.

[Bookitty]

Hmmm. I actually agree with you, ThAdmiral. And that was a really pro-town post, in my opinion.

I'm unFOSing you. I don't think scum would have pointed that out.

[Bookitty]

Adel:

What is your success rate with this algorithm? Could you link us to other games where you've used this method?

[Bookitty]

I think the graph is really fun to look at, and the summary of events was useful to some extent. But I really don't think it's any substitute for actual analysis of what is said, and who said it, and why. If it were, then computers could play the game, and people wouldn't be necessary.

I thought Zakarum was scummy before Adel arrived, and her latest postings seem very distractive and not very helpful to town, even though they're visually stunning. Basing your vote on wordcount? It seems really counter to the spirit of Mafia, and hopelessly random. If she could have pointed to instances where her theory was proven correct, I might have felt differently, but at this point, it just looks like a lot of razzle-dazzle and distraction, and not really helpful to town, especially considering the (in my opinion, at least) scattershot results she seems to be deriving.

Based on my own impressions being nearly diametrically opposite to Adel's results, and on Zakarum's past play, I will:

unvote; vote Adel

[Bookitty]

Breadcrumb means to hint at your role, so that you have evidence for it later when you are forced to claim it.

Why someone would breadcrumb WEREWOLF? That, I've no idea about.

[Bookitty]

Elias:

My understanding was that the werewolf thing was derived from the "tail end" that mcpaltp mentioned. I don't know for sure but that was my take on it.

[Bookitty]

In my opinion, despite Adel's alignment, her theories are no better than anyone else's. In fact, I think they're a lot worse, because they rely on easily manipulated things like word count.

I thought Zakarum was scum, and his replacement was town. As a result, I'm going to look at my other assumptions and see if I've been biased (I'm nearly certain there's some level of OMGUS in my suspicions of ThAdmiral. It doesn't make those suspicions wrong, but it does mean I may not have been objective) and try to give everything a fresh look.

Right now, though, I don't see any case on opie other than Adel's theory. Since Adel's theories also include self-voting and insulting other players in the game, I'm not going to go along with her ideas about opie, especially considering I have yet to see anything I considered scummy from opie in this game.

I don't agree with Neko's points regarding Adel. I think that Adel's behaviour was such that even if she had intended to help the town, she was distracting from the actual, helpful discussion that we were having. She replaced a character who was already under suspicion, and rather than explaining his actions, she chose to barrage us with diagrams and theories. Even if Mafia could be played based on statistics alone, I didn't want to play it like that. Adel seemed determined to try to make certain there was no possibility of playing it any other way, however, since if you criticised her method, she proceeded to "prove" you were scum by a secondary method mentioned later.

[And insulting the other players in a game that was both active and fun? For the record, I'd much rather play exclusively with SA players, whatever they are, than people who are rude and insulting without any real reason.]

Neko, Adel more or less accused you of being scumbuddies with ThAdmiral in an early post. If you are now expressing faith in her methods, does that extend to her suspicions of you?

[Bookitty]

I'm waiting for Neko's response about Adel's linking of Neko and ThAdmiral as scumbuddies before I place a vote. I think it's odd that Neko is trusting Adel's theories as regards others, but ignoring the suspicion Adel put on Neko himself.

That said, I personally didn't see anything scummy about Neko before this selective and somewhat self-serving insistence that Adel's theories are probably correct EXCEPT for the one that paints Neko and ThAdmiral as scum.

[Bookitty]

Neko, I'd like you to point out the post where you feel I insinuated I would lynch Adel regardless of her status. I never said that, and I'd like to know why you're implying I did.

Adel made comments in her voting pattern notes that linked you and ThAdmiral pretty definitively. I have given reasons for every single one of my votes, and I defy you to find a vote that was "following" anyone else, much less Mcpaltp, whom I listed as one of my top three suspects in the first place.

Why are you flailing around and blindly following Adel, as if she had some special knowledge based on an untested method? I don't think you're scum, Neko, and I'm not going to vote you, but I don't like how you're slavishly following someone whose first serious post threw serious doubt on YOU.

If you're so sure she's right, then why would you discount that post, which was actually based on WHAT people posted, not how many words per vote they used?

[Bookitty]

Neko:

I would prefer that people not insult other players, especially when they are guilty of the same kind of "spam" that they were attacking others for. Adel voted for HERSELF rather than play with us. That's indicating SHE didn't care whether or not she was town.

If you didn't find that vaguely offensive, and insulting to those of us who've committed to this game, then you and I are just different.

I voted Adel before the offensive and unnecessary comments, which I suspect you know. I did so because I had thought Zakarum was scum and Adel came in distractive and unhelpful and made me think she was scum. I resent her nasty comments to people on a personal level, because I feel she was trying to spoil the fun of the game for the rest of us. That part is separate from her alignment in game.

I could support voting Mcpaltp because of the case I've already made on him, because of his recent postings, and because he has consistently been one of my top suspects. But I don't agree on Opie, any more than I agree that you've been scummy. I intend to do a reread on Opie, but right now I don't see any better evidence for Opie as scum than that he agrees with someone I think is scum... and that's hardly much of a scumtell. Town and scum quite often agree, and town often disagrees with each other.

I think your case on Opie is weak. I agree with your case on mcpaltp. And I'm not basing anything on Adel's logic, because I think her theory is unproven and unreliable, and I haven't seen that her track record in general is good enough to justify relying on her results. I prefer using my own methods, rather than hers.

[Bookitty]

Neko:

You have your facts regarding me a little wrong. I made a case against ThAdmiral for misquoting me. I found that very suspicious (and I'm sure there was an element of OMGUS, I'm not going to pretend otherwise, in my suspicion) and I pushed that case independently of anyone else, voting for him for that reason. A reread will verify this.

I had suspicions of Zakarum (I was wrong about that one, but I wasn't alone in being wrong), of ThAdmiral and McPaltp. I made cases against all three, with the one against Zakarum being the strongest, in my opinion.

Since then, I've unFOSed ThAdmiral, due to something he said that seemed amazingly pro-town to me and not something scum would say or think. So I am not "returning to the case". I was asking YOU why, when you're putting so much stock in Adel's unproven theory and not developing a case for yourself, you didn't feel the need to address the accusations Adel made about you and ThAdmiral, nebulous and unsubstantial as they were.

At this point basing your suspicions on an unproven method, instead of coming to your own conclusions based on real evidence, makes it look like you don't want to take responsibility for making up your own mind. If you're sure Adel was right, then vote Opie. Build a case, show your evidence, and I might even find myself in agreement with you, but I'm not seeing any evidence in that direction myself.

If you're looking at real evidence and not Adel's theorising, sure, I myself agree that McPaltp is the way to go today, and I'm likely to vote him for reasons I've already posted.

But if you're just going to pick and choose what parts of Adel's analysis most suit your current case, and ignore the rest, then I see no reason to consider your opinion any more valid than I found hers to be.

[Bookitty]

For reasons I've already outlined, and in the interest of discussion and moving the game forward, I'm going to:

vote: mcpaltp

I haven't liked the nature of neko2086's arguments lately, but I do agree with him that mcpaltp is scum, even though our reasons are not the same.

[Bookitty]

I made my case against mcpaltp in post 274. Since then:

He's engaged in some "breadcrumb" nonsense with Adel that served only to distract the town and derail whatever useful discussion was ongoing, and later stated that said distraction was just a joke.

He's made these comments:

I would call your tactic scummy, but I just pulled the same thing in another game as town, and how could I sleep at night if I was such a hypocrite? I couldn't at all.

And I'll get a little more serious here, and stop needling Adel so much.

To emphasize, the breadcrumb "hint" was a joke. I was posting Jabberwocky to screw with the algorhythm. Just be happy I didn't post "Hunting of the Snark"

Screw you Adel

for being a townie

and voting for yourself.

(emphasis mine)

But more importantly than any of these is the absolute change in tone once Adel was lynched. Mcpaltp has turned far more aggressive than previously, and seems determined to push through a lynch of either ThAdmiral or Neko, all the while reacting to a vote on himself with this:

Do you have some justificaiton, or are you just voting on gut AT WHAT MAY BE LYLO?

while showing no such reluctance in accusing Neko and voting for him and/or ThAdmiral interchangeably.

I think Neko's argument is wrong. But being wrong is not a scumtell. A reasoned, logical argument is much more persuasive than mere bullying and browbeating. Additionally, mcpaltp's case against ThAdmiral is basically MY previous case against ThAdmiral, combined with valid accusations of lurking and not voting. While I do think that being unhelpful to town is scummy, ThAdmiral has behaved consistently in this, while mcpaltp's behaviour has drastically changed at a point he himself has stated may be LYLO. That seems a bigger scumtell than persistent lurking, though neither is good.

To reiterate, I don't find Neko's arguments scummy. I think they're wrong, but they don't make him scum in my view. And trying to shout down his arguments, rather than address them logically, doesn't make mcpaltp's case any stronger in my view.

That's my opinion, for what it's worth. Comments and criticism are always welcome.

[Bookitty]

@Elias:

Obviously I don't agree with you about Opie. I'm just not seeing his behaviour as scummy. Some mistakes, maybe, but he's consistently posted content and he's been willing to express opinions. I'm seeing the dispute between Neko and Opie as two townies arguing, more than town and scum.

I'm leaning toward ThAdmiral as overwhelmed townie (I could easily be wrong about this). I could easily go along with you on Boggzie, for his weird behaviour day one and then his lack of real input since then. My vote is on mcpaltp, for reasons already mentioned, but due to both their mea culpa attitudes after ryan's implosion (and I will say, the situation was weird for all of us, but both their reactions were a bit over the top), I could see them as scumbuddies.

I look forward to hearing hasdgfas's analysis and input, not least because we haven't really heard a lot from him in this game, in my opinion, and I'd like the chance to take a closer look at this accusation of opie-hasdgfas having a connection. I didn't see it the first time, but I'm always willing to give that a second look.

I'm happy with my vote on mcpaltp at the moment. I'd like a response from him about his drastic playstyle change once Adel entered the game, and I don't feel inclined to move my vote til I've gotten one.

[Bookitty]

Hey, I'm not sad when scum self-vote. As a matter of fact, self-voting as scum is a kind of busing-esque move that I see as a pretty strong scumtell, as self-voting quashes discussion (in the most drastic way possible), and discussion favors town. When people self-vote, I tend to go after 'em harder, as it is never (well, rarely) in the self-interest of town to vote for any townie, including themselves.

And for that matter, I like it when scum die. DO YOU? *ZOMG scumtell ZOMG*

You did notice that Adel didn't turn out to be scum, right? All your arguments here are only valid if she had been scum. As yet we've not hit scum, so what is your point with these statements?

I'm not defending Adel's actions. I found them scummy enough to vote her, and I wasn't alone in that. I'm saying that you engaged in the same sort of distractive nonsense that I found scummy in her, that you now are playing completely differently (this game began October 15th, by the way, so that's a month and change, not months, as you indicated. It hasn't been that long, not long enough to justify a complete change in your playstyle) and while you're playing more aggressively, you're also tunnelling on those who have accused you. Neko made some accusations in my direction too, but I didn't react like you did, because I can see his logic in it, despite not agreeing with it. And your overreaction (in my view) seems scummy to me.

[Bookitty]

That's not exactly what you said, Mcpaltp.

By way of analogy, if I'd said something similar, and you'd questioned me, and I'd reacted by saying, "I hate scum! I hate scum so much! I want them to DIEEEEE!"... that would be more than a little strange, wouldn't it? It's not really an answer to the question. It's more like an attempt to distance myself from scum by going over-the-top hyperdramatic about my hatred for scum. It's distracting, and it produces a lot of smoke, but not much heat or light.

If you state your cases plainly, then generally they're not difficult to understand. If you start ranting about how much you want the scum to die, when that's not relevant to the question at hand, then no one is going to understand them. It looks like you're using emotional argument (i.e., see how much I hate scum! I couldn't BE one!) rather than simply making your case, and appeals to emotion usually look pretty scummy to me, anyway.

Elias pointed out a pretty significant discrepancy in your prior statements regarding Boggzie and the ryan situation. I hadn't remembered that, but on a reread it does look like you're misrepresenting the basis for your vote on ryan, considering that ryan hadn't come close to freaking out at the point you decided to put a vote on him. I'd like to hear an explanation for this, please.

[Bookitty]

Post 329:

It seemed that the longer zakarum was absent the more people were growing suspicious of him. And while it's true that you and hasdfags had mentioned your suspicions earlier people like opie and the hermit seemed to be just jumping on the overall sentiment, or at least were swayed by it.

It's easy to grow more suspicious of someone when they don't reply for a long time, but it's unwise to use someone's absence as a further sign of guilt, as people sometimes do have legitimate reasons why they haven't posted. And sometimes a sentiment can build up to a point where the person comes back and attempts to respond to the case against them but by that stage everyone is just hungry for a lynch.

I don't agree with ThAdmiral's views on Opie, though I now feel I need to reread Opie's arguments and actually figure out why I feel him to be pro-town. I admit I could be wrong about him, though I don't feel that I am.

But the post quoted above is why I'm not really buying ThAdmiral as scum. Why would scum point out something so useful to town? If ThAdmiral really didn't want to help town, why would he volunteer this? (Which actually turned out to be true, because Zakarum/Adel WAS town.)

In my view, scum like it when "everyone is just hungry for a lynch." They'd be the last ones to point out that suspicion is building even though no further evidence is available (though I do think that lurking made Zakarum look more guilty, as scum is likely to lurk when the heat is on).

Additionally, mcpaltp has been pushing both ThAdmiral's lynch and Neko's lynch, and he has yet to explain the misstatement about his vote on ryan. I have the feeling mcpaltp hasn't responded because he knows he betrayed himself there, and he hasn't figured a way out of his lie, but that's just my gut feeling. I can't think of an innocent explanation for him misrepresenting himself there, though.

As I'm sure everyone remembers, I've had my own suspicions of and problems with ThAdmiral. But I am far more sure that mcpaltp is scummy. It fits ThAdmiral's vote analysis perfectly, which only confirms my own suspicions. Still not buying the case on opie, but I can definitely agree with the case on mcpaltp.

[Bookitty]

I asked you what you meant by this, because I felt it was an odd choice of words:

Screw you Adel

for being a townie

and voting for yourself.

(emphasis still mine)

And you responded with this, which in my view is not relevant to what I asked you, but rather an explanation of how you're glad when scum self-vote and die.

Hey, I'm not sad when scum self-vote. As a matter of fact, self-voting as scum is a kind of busing-esque move that I see as a pretty strong scumtell, as self-voting quashes discussion (in the most drastic way possible), and discussion favors town. When people self-vote, I tend to go after 'em harder, as it is never (well, rarely) in the self-interest of town to vote for any townie, including themselves.

And for that matter, I like it when scum die. DO YOU? *ZOMG scumtell ZOMG*

Why all the extraneous "I like it when scum die" nonsense? Do you feel that it makes you look more town? And more importantly, how is that different in tone from my analogy, which I believe no one could have mistaken for a quote from you?

[Bookitty]

I've thought and thought about this. I'm such a sucker for the emotional appeals, and I'm having to steel myself against this one.

I think that you're right, that your change in playstyle, along with what I viewed as strange behaviour before and after Adel's lynch (and now the differing explanations for your vote on Ryan) have indeed made me certain of your guilt. I can't speak for anyone else's reasons, but these are my own.

I am sorry that you're sorry, mcpaltp, but I also can't shake the feeling that you know exactly what to say to inspire sympathy, and that I'm being played. And so I don't feel I can give you the benefit of the doubt this time, no matter how sorry you are.

[Bookitty]

Thank you so much for not nightkilling me, Elias and Hasd

Best scumpartners ever, definitely. Even though I never got to talk to you out of thread, I thought you both were brilliant.

And I'm very sorry the town had to die in order to solve my self-esteem issues and allow me to feel accepted. But at least I lived happily ever after until Fat Tony shot me in a territory dispute one week after my induction into the mob.

[Bookitty]

Yes, absolutely kudos to Rishi. Awesome flavour and a really fun and well-modded game