Mini 1787: Peruvian Nightclub Mafia (Game End!)

[Jake from State Farm]

Well you've got to be lying because I'm cop and godfather is blacklisted in normal games anyway, which is why I'm not voting you right now

Jake I don't understand why you're going full rambo but I'm not going to let you get lynched, obviously, just stop with the fakeclaim already?

Are you serious

Why would I fake claim cop with two innos as mafia

I'm real cop, jake is doing some weird gambit thing right now and doesn't actually expect me to get lynched

jaack I ask you again - are you really scum reading me?

I'm a Voyeur
I'm going to claim cause I'm useless now

I targeted Robert N1 and yeah he got investigated
I targeted Dunn N2 and yeah he got investigated

So either Dunn is GF or Jake is scum investigative
Have fun someone figure this out

LOL

Ok I retract. And I'll explain what I was doing before you psychopaths jumped on me

Please tell me how the all this comes from a person who says they knew I was the cop...

Or this one

[Jake from State Farm]

So fuck off saying I haven't read. Nobody has fucking answerd them.

[Jake from State Farm]

I'm on it. Dunn's on it and I consider him basically clear. Bins is on it and I consider her basically clear. Tyler's the only question mark, and I'd still believe he's town before Creature or Jaack.

That's a horrible answer

[Jake from State Farm]

Can somebody posts some reasons why xy is scum? I can't seem to find them in the posts where the votes were made.

[xyzzy]

shit, my math is bad, I didn't realize I'm at L-1. I'll uneventfully claim if anyone would like me to.

[Tyler the Creator]

^scumposting

[Dunnstral]

xyzzy you never react to anything

Still just waiting for someone to decide to vote this

Or we can flip to creature who is probably also scum?

[toolenduso]

Can somebody posts some reasons why xy is scum? I can't seem to find them in the posts where the votes were made.

Here:

HA's interactions with...

(snip)

xyzzy:

-Only three mentions of xyzzy in HA's ISO, and two of them are when he's using xyzzy to explain his townread on Dunn.
-The third is in his readslist in #281, and it's an underdeveloped townread on xyzzy.
-This is maybe partner material.

Spoiler: xyzzy

-The three posts from #34-#42 are potentially scummy, and people noted it at the time. Xyzzy goes after Dunn in a kind of provocative way, only to keep their vote on Jaack and not really come to a conclusion on Dunn. Xyzzy's explanation in #59 is that the game is still early and they're going to wait to see what Dunn does later in the day. Just seems like it could be scum searching for a good first wagon to build momentum on without wanting to be too central in the push.
-I didn't notice this before, but in #89 (xyzzy's first post-by-post analysis), they talk about at least two of their own posts...a little bizarre, since I would think the point of a post-by-post analysis would be to scumhunt. Adding in a post from themself just seems like filler.
-I noted before that xyzzy's vote on zachstral in #89 was an "easy" vote to make. In #158, xyzzy responds to my point by saying that it's partially just a vote to get Zachstral to talk. The problem with that is that Zachstral had actually been posting quite a bit relative to other players at that point, while floof had only posted once and HA hadn't posted at all.
-The approach to Jake in #174 also bugs me a bit. Jake had naked voted Zachstral, and xyzzy responded by asking Jake about his reasons -- normally might come across as town to me, but xyzzy specified that they were fine with votes on Zachstral. Seems like trying to come across as suspicious while simultaneously trying to keep Jake's vote on Zachstral.
-#286 only adds to that weirdness, because xyzzy says Jake is scum and then says they're going to keep their vote on Zachstral. No mention of the fact that Jake was voting Zachstral, nor the implications for Zachstral's alignment if Jake -- who was voting Zachstral -- was scum.
-Xyzzy agrees with a point from HA that I thought did not make a whole lot of sense in #393.
-The turnaround on HA #447, #561 and #566 does seem kind of...opportunistic, for lack of a better word. It's just that xyzzy didn't pay a ton of attention to HA up until that point, and actually had kept their vote on Zachstral for most of the game. Then when HA gets close to being lynched, Xyzzy reassesses and gets on board with an HA lynch.
-Should be noted that xyzzy comes out against a Robert lynch in #652. If nothing else this tells us that if Xyzzy is scum, scum expected HA to die from the doc claim.
-In #852, xyzzy defends the all-D1 Zachstral vote by saying it seemed more productive than a Jake vote. This doesn't really make a ton of sense to me; I don't remember much of any pressure on Zachstral yesterday.

Overall xyzzy looks worse than I thought. The interactions with HA (from both perspectives) are not good, the posting and voting arcs are a little confusing and possibly event contradictory, and there's a general air of trying not to open themselves up too much.

To narrow it down further, I think there's one scum in {Xyzzy/Tyler} and one in {Creature, Jaack}.

(snip)

Xyzzy:

-Again, Xyzzy responding to their own posts in #89 makes it seem like the post-by-post analysis is just filler on show to look like they're doing work. And again, the Zachstral vote was an easy one to make.
-Don't like xyzzy questioning ira but then softening the blow of it by saying they don't necessarily disagree in #158. Comes across, again, like they're trying to do work but lack conviction in it.
-Same deal when questioning Jake's vote of Zachstral in #174.
-#447 and #561 is Xyzzy coming back and, after not doing much of anything with HA up until that point, deciding to go back and reread HA's ISO. Then Xyzzy comes back with a scumread on HA. This is all happening with HA at L-1 -- this is a scummy-looking turnaround.
-Xyzzy didn't go for Robert after the macho claim in #652, noted.
-Xyzzy being happy about Tyler not dying in #698 seems like it might be a like "hey look I didn't know who was going to die!" moment. Like trying to sound ignorant.
-It kinda looks even worse in the context of #852. The reason xyzzy said they were happy Tyler was alive was because they were curious about a post Tyler made D1 saying to lynch Xyzzy or floof on D2. Then, after bringing up that post (could be an attempt to get some momentum going on the floof slot), Xyzzy votes for zakk.
-#1626 is more of xyzzy explicitly stating something to show that they didn't know what the night kill was going to be.
-I'm also a little leery of xyzzy saying in #2001 that Robert's claim "probably" makes him town. I should think it's the closest thing to a guarantee that Jake is town that we could get short of him being an innocent child. It just kind of seems like xyzzy is taking pains to be careful and cover all their bases, especially since they previously were talking about believing Bins' claim, which came after Jake's claim.

[toolenduso]

I'll

uneventfully

claim if anyone would like me to.

I mean, you basically just did.

[TheOtherFiction]

Post: I'll read, brb.

[TheOtherFiction]

Jaack that's really flawed logic because at #2 you say something is probably the case but then at #4 you act as if that thing *must* be the case. I'm really not a fan of that argument at all.

I think you are nitpicking a bit. I agree that if Dunn is town (which he can't possibly be) at least one scum is pushing his lynch. That argument isn't bad at all, but I just don't think Dunn is town.

I'll add on that if Dunn is actually scum there's still a chance one person is pushing him in an attempt to distance.

Also, I disagree that the people on the xyz's wagons makes it good. His scumminess should be what makes it good, but he seems more like he's just not engaged with the game. Could he be town? Absolutely. Scum? Sure. But I don't know if I'd say his recent behavior is particularly indicative other than a "fuck this" attitude. Could just be busy with life or whatever.

Plus, I want jake's question's answered before end of day.

[toolenduso]

Also, I disagree that the people on the xyz's wagons makes it good. His scumminess should be what makes it good, but he seems more like he's just not engaged with the game. Could he be town? Absolutely. Scum? Sure. But I don't know if I'd say his recent behavior is particularly indicative other than a "fuck this" attitude. Could just be busy with life or whatever.

It's his scumminess

and

the people on his wagon that make it a good lynch. And if xyzzy's

recent

behavior is what's giving you pause, I would direct you to the post I just posted in response to Jake where I rounded up all my notes on xyzzy throughout the game. That will give you a better idea of what xyzzy's been doing throughout the game, a handy reference guide of key posts to look at in their iso and some perspective on how xyzzy's play fits in with HA, the only flipped scum we have to look at.

Plus, I want jake's question's answered before end of day.

Fine. I will go through all the questions Jake posted and round up all the responses that have already been written to them. For your sake.

But when I'm done I am going to ask you some questions as well, and I want you to answer them. Deal?

[toolenduso]

It's

their

scumminess

and

the people on

their

wagon that make it a good lynch.

Corrected.

[toolenduso]

Question from Jake:

Still want a logical explanation as to why Dunn didn't retract right away vs waiting until he was caught in a lie to retract. Anyone?

Response:

I continued with the gambit because I still thought we'd both be cleared, albeit vying for cop position. I thought it likely that I would have been chosen as the mafia kill over Jake.

Question from Jake:

You guys seem to have issue justifying his cc as town behavior but not the attempt to discredit me. How was that town motivated? How is it not scum motivated.

Response:

But what matters is whether townDunn could see a reason to do it. And I think he could. It doesn't make sense to me, but other people do things that don't make sense to me all the time.

Something's gotta give, when you consider what has to be true in order for Dunn to be scum or town. In order for him to be scum, he has to be a godfather and he has to have somehow thought that it was a better play to gambit and out the cop, risking his own life in the process, than for him to ride a fake cop clear to victory.

If he's town, he needed to believe in weird logic.

Question from Jake:

Let's play devil's advocate. What if I didn't have a result on him. What would your reaction to his actions be?

Response:

All right this one I have not personally responded to, so here's my answer:

1) This does not matter, because Jake

did

get a result on Dunn. A hypothetical theory about a situation that

did not happen

is not going to tell us anything about the situation that

did actually happen.

But, you wanted answers to all of Jake's questions, so...
2) I'd probably be more suspicious of Dunn. My townread on him now is based on the fact that if he's scum he'd have to be a godfather.

Question from Jake:

Well you've got to be lying because I'm cop and godfather is blacklisted in normal games anyway, which is why I'm not voting you right now

Jake I don't understand why you're going full rambo but I'm not going to let you get lynched, obviously, just stop with the fakeclaim already?

Are you serious

Why would I fake claim cop with two innos as mafia

I'm real cop, jake is doing some weird gambit thing right now and doesn't actually expect me to get lynched

jaack I ask you again - are you really scum reading me?

I'm a Voyeur
I'm going to claim cause I'm useless now

I targeted Robert N1 and yeah he got investigated
I targeted Dunn N2 and yeah he got investigated

So either Dunn is GF or Jake is scum investigative
Have fun someone figure this out

LOL

Ok I retract. And I'll explain what I was doing before you psychopaths jumped on me

Please tell me how the all this comes from a person who says they knew I was the cop...

Responses:

Basically, yes I noticed that jake was town cop day 1. I hinted that I knew/threw in some softs to potentially distract mafia who may have noticed (bins noticed for sure so it was there)
You can go back and hunt my iso for that stuff if you want, it's there and I even say something to bins once I realize she's noticed.

After that, Zach's kill was weird to me. Day start I intentionally tried to provoke Jake to see if he'd open up by voting me. I had already realized that I would be the likely cop check, especially since he was saying things like "you haven't seen me deathtunnel" day 1. He didn't vote me and even said something about reevaluating the game.

At that point I claimed cop. My main purpose here was to get the reports out (knowing myself to be inno and cleared, I'd have cleared robert which I softed day 1, and later on jake for day 2.) I'd then have been killed the next day, and jake would have had another report to work with
Everything went according to plan. Except jake cc'd me

even though he has an inno report on me

???

I continued with the gambit because I still thought we'd both be cleared, albeit vying for cop position. I thought it likely that I would have been chosen as the mafia kill over Jake.

But what matters is whether townDunn could see a reason to do it. And I think he could. It doesn't make sense to me, but other people do things that don't make sense to me all the time.

Something's gotta give, when you consider what has to be true in order for Dunn to be scum or town. In order for him to be scum, he has to be a godfather and he has to have somehow thought that it was a better play to gambit and out the cop, risking his own life in the process, than for him to ride a fake cop clear to victory.

If he's town, he needed to believe in weird logic.

[toolenduso]

Now, TOF, I have done what you asked. Please do what I ask and answer these questions:

1) Have you read the entirety of D3 -- essentially, Dunn's claim, the retraction and the aftermath? If not, I will post a summary for you that will explain why we should not lynch Dunn.
2) Who are your top three picks for today's lynch, in order?
3) Do you agree that if Dunn is town, Jaack and Creature are likely not on the same scumteam (because it's unlikely both scum would try to lynch the easy mislynch like that without having enough town support to make the lynch actually happen)?
4) What do you think of xyzzy?

[Jake from State Farm]

Well that wasn't a logical explanation. That was a very illogical one that doesn't even make any sense.

Re: your response in 1859. You and everyone else are still discounting the Mafia desperation to locate the actual cop. Mafia thought I was the cop day 2, but my wifom gave them doubt which is obviously why they didn't kill me and killed somebody else who looked like they could have been the cop. Finding the cop ASAP was mafias main goal cause the more people they clear, the less likely they can survive to end game.

The last question with the wall quotes I'm not asking for Dunn's responses cause he's conf scum to me. Your response isn't really a good response either.

I'm over this game and tbh I'm over every single player who playing it. Allowing scum to get away with this gambit is just plain stupid. If he's actually not scum (seriously doubt) he should be lynched anyway and he certainly shouldn't be listened to

Can you guys just lynch me or better yet just end the day. I'm not going to replace out cause it's not fair to have somebody to replace in only to be NKd

[Bins]

No one's gonna lynch you lol

But seriously xy if you're town you have to say more than that

someone hammer
or wait for the claim
idc

[Jake from State Farm]

Well I'm not hammering but I'm ok with someone doing it.

[Creature]

Intent to hammer

[Creature]

Going with Dunnstral for this one.

[Dunnstral]

^ ???

[Dunnstral]

Feeling pretty confident both scum are on Dunnstral/Jaack/Bins.

Can we lock the game already?

[Creature]

Take out Bins and put xyzzy in that list.

[Dunnstral]

And then take out Dunnstral and put Creature in that list and we've got our real pool

[Jake from State Farm]

Please remember that Dunn has to at least be lynched before mylo/lylo