Mini 1800 - Game Over

[qubixes]

VOTE: Kappy
that was easiest scumlynch EVER!

VOTE: sickofit1138

Too excited.

I am a bit confused how you miss kappy's post if you're posting 3 minutes after him? I always get the messages if I'm about to get ninja'd. Just curious.

[qubixes]

VOTE: Chumba
For not realizing I changed my vote.

There were two people that didn't realize your vote

before

that. Why change your vote now?

[qubixes]

because this is RVS and I'm lazy.

So, what is the point of the vote change? If you're lazy, it's much easier to keep your vote where it is.

[qubixes]

@kappy

Going back a bit. Why did you self vote?

[qubixes]

@Percuvul

Since you are still on this topic and apparently don't understand, I posted my vote and it got to the preview and it showed the two first votes and I was like eh who cares I'm fine with a wagon.

Well, you did say that you didn't know you were joining a wagon when you in actuality did know that. Can we at least agree that is confusing?

VOTE: Sickofit1138
For following a wagon. Obvscum move.

lol i thought i was first post but to each his own...

first to post at all. i didnt know i was hopping on a wagon

If you are fine with a wagon, why do you "defend" yourself like this?

[qubixes]

Wow, this game is moving rather fast. I guess it's a good sing, though I hope I slows a bit down, so I can keep up!

Anyway, about sick. I am not too worried about this whole "lying" thing. It seems like a rather stupid thing to consciously lie about. I rather disliked his defense and also his attack on persivul with the attempt at a 1v1. However, I think that at this point it's more of a stylistic dislike than something that points to an actual scumread of him. That said, I'm not willing to give him a town pass either yet. With that:

UNVOTE:

If I read correctly, there are 3 people with some votes on the apart from sickofit: Persivul, Kappy and karnos.

I don't get the attacks in the direction of Persivul. I think he has been trying to move the game forward, while being honest and reasonable about it. Of course, scum can (and should) be reasonable too, but so far I haven't seen anything to convince me that Persivul is mafia.

I have some serious issues with Kappy's play so far. Most of which has been pointed out so far (and some that I think has not). At this point he is my strongest scum read. I'm not sure at how many votes he is right now, so I'll refrain from voting him right now. Interested to see how he will react to the pressure.

I also have some problems with karnos' play so far. 171 rings some serious scum bells in my head, and his previous posts are not much better imo. Now I think about it some more, I think karnos is probably a stronger read than Kappy.

VOTE: karnos

Feeling pretty tired today, so I don't think I'll be posting much more today. I'll be generally posting more in the weekends I suspect, just as a general guideline.

[qubixes]

I fucking called it. Exactly what I feared, happened- see bolded text above for emphasis. And your original response? "Lurking is NAI unless you have meta blah blah". I told you from the first response that I wasn't merely concerned with lurkers, I was also concerned with a lurker who posts the absolute minimum post and then goes back to lurking.

This just feels like frustration of being scumread while others "get away" with not being active. I think it's genuine frustration. However, I also think this notion of unfairness is more likely to come from scum.

VOTE: karnos

Feeling pretty tired today, so I don't think I'll be posting much more today. I'll be generally posting more in the weekends I suspect, just as a general guideline.

Somehow I didn't pick up on this the first time I skimmed it. I see whats going on, I was aggressive towards hiding players, so qubixes heads me off and votes me first before he goes into hiding for the rest of the week. now I can't vote him without it being OMGUS!

I don't know, maybe this is something I need to learn from. I tend to distrust hiding players in every game, feel free to look at my game history. When you give them a free pass, how can you make sure scum doesn't abuse your goodwill?

Ha! You can vote me if you think I'm scum. Why are you so worried if it looks like an OMGUS? If you give solid reasoning why I'm scum, it's not OMGUS. You seriously think that I would vote you, because I'm afraid you're going to vote me for inactivity? Also self-meta doesn't look good to me. Apparently you're aware of what you normally do, and you do it here, so that proves... exactly nothing, except you want us to believe you're town?

[qubixes]

If I read correctly, there are 3 people with some votes on the apart from sickofit: Persivul, Kappy and karnos.

Do you feel your vote necessarily needs to go on a pre-existing wagon?

No, of course not. Although I think it's a nice bonus since the player is feeling more pressured then when there's just a single vote on them. If I would have had a strong(er) scumread on someone else I would have went for them.

I haven't yet taken the time to go through everyone's ISO, but I will at some point (if I have time..). Maybe I'll find some hidden scum then.

[qubixes]

I meant that in a joking manner, maybe it wasn't obvious enough. I'd absolutely vote you if I thought you were really scum, but even if you are going to hide for a day or two you have been making readable posts prior to that so I don't really have an issue.

You did make me laugh, so I'll give you a pass on this one. As Mecha said though, a smiley can sometimes help .

[qubixes]

species's ISO is pretty bad. Not necessarily for having few posts, but because the posts they have are uniformly contentless. Especially when they go into a theory discussion about the RVS self-vote, for which they apparently searched through threads, but are unwilling to discuss any actual game relevant information. 3 posts out of 7 on the same topic and it's barely even game-related.

I agree species's ISO looks pretty bad. The entrance 97 did ping me a bit when I first read it. However, I think their question to me 187was reasonable.

@species

Want to share some reads? Did you get anything of the RVS self-vote?

[qubixes]

That puts persivul at

L-2

. Tread carefully people.

Can I deduce from this that your read on Persivul isn't very strong?

Got ninja'd

[qubixes]

@Persivul: What is your read on kappy now?

I reread kappy's ISO before he made his big post, and I think it is actually more likely to be coming from town. Mostly based on tone and some points he makes that make me think he is genuinely scumhunting.

I'll look through my list of suspects tonight (or weekend).

[qubixes]

Also, if you were put at L-1, I would unvote you until you did defend yourself.

@Saru: I can only find your/the contradiction argument as your reason to suspect persivul. Is there anything else?

[qubixes]

I think that kappy has been playing somewhat "loose". However, I think it fits more town-loose than it does scum loose at this point. Obviously I had some reasons to put him on top of the list before I (for now) revised my read. First the reasons why I initially scum read him (most of it already pointed out I believe):

10: His fear of RVS wagons
28, 71: His weird jumping around he sickofit wagon.
35: "Because it's RVS", which I interpreted as trying blend in as scum doing the proper thing.

Right now, his fear of RVS wagons still bugs me the most. I think when taking looseness into account, the other two can be explained from a town perspective (as well as from a scum perspective obviously!).

I disagree on a couple of points in your list [comments in red]:

Kappy ISO:

First 14 posts are just screwing around and prolonging RVS

Yes, but it fits in the loose profile

65 - theory

I don't think his ISO is overly concentrated on theory, so I don't have a problem with this one.

103 - "No strong reads atm," but gives a bare reads list anyway. Scum have incentive to do this because lists are generally seen as towny. As scum I've advised buddies who were in trouble to just put up a reads list, and it frequently works.

I find reads lists more of stylistic thing than anything else (I almost never give them).

181 - reads list with some reasoning. Only thing slightly controversial was putting me in town. Most people are in null. Two scum reads are safe: several people were suspicious of sick, species wasn't very active.

Actually I don't think this read list is that safe really. The wagon of sickofit was already dissipating, with both me and you off the wagon. It's not that strange that he has a lot of null's early in Day 1. I think even that scum would be more likely to balance it more to get an even distribution.

192 - "Looked it up myself. it's true!" and sheeping on karnos is bad. I asked him what he had looked up, and he said he had just verified the one quote I gave. If he were really scum hunting he should have checked several games, searching for variants of lurk and hide. Chumba did just that, saying in 204 "I was searching for lurking and hiding in his iso." Chumba's slot went up a notch for that.

I think how much time someone puts into research is more a personality thing than alignment. Ok, maybe town is naturally a little more likely to put in more effort. (Though it look like a really good opportunity for scum to jump in and take some credit for finding the pattern here (assuming Karnos is town).

201 - unwillingness to change read after karnos makes a good response

Ehh, he said he would check it and then unvote if true? He did change his read afterwards.

235 and 236 - still trying to push me v. sick when, from my POV at least, that's over.

I don't see this as pushing you vs sick, just pushing sick. Actually the fact that he goes after sick here again makes me think he is more likely town, because he's actively going in the opposite direction from the rest.

Also, a number of people have expressed an opinion on him, so the flip would be informative.

This always really bothers me, when people try to suggest a lynch and add that it also gives a lot of information. What if kappy flips town, what do we know then?

So, how do you come up with a town read?

Summing up, I don't have a super strong town read on kappy, but I feel (gut) that he is more likely to be town. I don't feel like he has been trying to push a scum agenda. He hasn't really been trying to look town I feel.

I guess it's kind of silly that I spent most of my time right now defending someone else. I don't think I'd get any wagons rolling that I'd like to see though. (And still figuring out who I'd like the most to be lynched.)

[qubixes]

@mecha: Your points are fair. And I think that if I would think of Kappy as super strong experienced player, I might scum read him for that (sorry Kappy :/). Overall I think the case is alright, though the presentation is perhaps not the greatest.

[qubixes]

I think that kappy has been playing somewhat "loose". However, I think it fits more town-loose than it does scum loose at this point.

Any particular things you can point to that illustrate this? Because I don't see it. Even if it's a gut read, what statements are giving you that feeling?

Well, I tried to find something, but I kind of failed I'm afraid. If anything, I think the first couple of posts are really all over the place, without really much care. I think as scum he would tread a little more careful. Also, he hasn't been too concerned so far with defending himself. Or trying to get himself buddied up with someone (maybe percivul somewhat). In general I feel he has been doing more or less his own thing so far. That said, I can be totally wrong, and I'll re-evaluate my read later on. One thing I should for sure do at some point is read/skim through the games he has played so far on this site. Maybe that'll give me a better idea.

And I think that if I would think of Kappy as super strong experienced player, I might scum read him for that

Yeah, but look at the difference between what he's doing and what Sick (another inexperienced player) is doing.
Sick's case on Persy wasn't good, but it was original. He made it himself and he was going to defend it. He was invested in it. He knew he was right. Kappy, on the other hand, is throwing points out. Once he's made them, he forgets them and moves on to the next one. He has no investment in his cases.
One of these is a town player who believes they're telling the truth. One of these is a scum player who just wants to look town by having a case.

Well, kappy was already on sick before the karnos switch, so in that sense there was some investment. Also, nobody was really pushing sick at that point anymore either. Well, to me sick's push on percivul sounds over the top. I feel he is overselling his "original" case quite a bit. Of course that is part style, but it also makes it look like he has done more than he actually did.

Anyway, kappy might want to take over his own defense.

[qubixes]

Summing up, I don't have a super strong town read on kappy, but I feel (gut) that he is more likely to be town. I don't feel like he has been trying to push a scum agenda.

What kind of agenda do you expect to see from scum on D1?

Not getting your buddy lynched, looking town, lead town, prepare someone to lynch tomorrow, figuring out PR's, bus your teammate... Lots of things to do. Of course, I don't know what scum!kappy's agenda would look like, maybe not all of the above..

[qubixes]

Have you seen anyone doing that? If so, shouldn't you be saying something?

Point is that scum frequently drift on D1 and see how things play out.

I think there are players that have been more scummy, so yes I guess?

Not sure exactly what you mean by drifting (seen the word thrown around a bit), but isn't it something town does as well?

Why did you phrase your questions to me the way you did? Do you think I'm scum? Is it supposed to motivate me? (Hint: it doesn't) To me, it doesn't look like with the current state of the game, pushing someone I find scummy isn't going to accomplish anything. So why bother?

[qubixes]

I think there are players that have been more scummy, so yes I guess?

Who, and why?

Not sure exactly what you mean by drifting (seen the word thrown around a bit), but isn't it something town does as well?

Lazy town do. That's why we need to push people to sort them.

Why did you phrase your questions to me the way you did? Do you think I'm scum?

I find you suspicious.

Is it supposed to motivate me? (Hint: it doesn't) To me, it doesn't look like with the current state of the game, pushing someone I find scummy isn't going to accomplish anything.

What specifically about the current game state indicates that pushing someone scummy won't accomplish anything?

So why bother?

How do you intend to sort people if you don't pressure your scum reads?

The game felt rather stale, with everyone kind of stuck at their positions. That is one of the reasons I thought defending kappy might achieve something. I thought that might help make the game a little more fluid again (and I thought the two main wagons were not in the same place). I also defended kappy to sort you, see if you would be interested in some new idea's, but I was rather disappointed. Not really scumreading you at the moment, but we'll see.

I think sometimes waiting and seeing is a fine strategy to sort people. Even without pressure, people drop scumtells, and the fact that they are not yet aware of the reasons that you're scumreading them might let them make more mistakes.

I had Saru as a decently strong scum read for some time, but I the end of their exchange (with Persivul) looks a lot more towny to me, to the point that I'm actually town reading him now.

I'll get into my scum read in my next post, and I'm sure you're all in eager anticipation!

[qubixes]

I think

Karnos

has about a 80-90% chance of flipping scum.

At some point during this game, when I was already suspecting him in general, I vaguely remembered that I spectated (unspoiled) a game of his some time ago. I remembered reading him as very open towny, so I looked through some of his games where he was town and his play here doesn't look anything like it.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=65727
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=66170

My read on him is not so much a meta read, but importantly the meta does reinforces it. Here are the overall main problems I have with him:

1

He is being very careful. I don't find this true in his town games.

2

He is very conscious about how what he writes looks. Also didn't find many examples in the meta.

3

His reads list is long and basically a whole bunch of nothing/null. It reminds me very much of my own read lists when I was scum the first time (I also felt that I should give a list as scum to look townie).

So let's find some proof of the above shall we? Now that I have finished my quotes, wow there is a lot. Feel free to disagree with some of it that is perhaps a bit picky, but there is just so much that reinforces the picture imo that it can't be ignored. Maybe I was even feeling generous saying it's only 80-90%. I would suggest everyone to at least have a good look at Karnos, to see whether he is scum. I just put in too much effort to let it go to waste by being ignored.

I color coded them for convenience (see list). I might have gotten some colors wrong. Also, I don't know why I chose green.. That's not a towny point.

Spoiler: proof

UNVOTE:

In all seriousness, I don't see a good target for a serious vote yet.

I don't think kappy is in danger of being quick-lynched,

but I don't want to be implicated if it does somehow happen while I am away.

To be fair I have seen this before done by newbie town, however it still shows how careful he is and implicitly how he think he'll look if something would happen while he is away.

I caught up with the thread a bit late, made an RVS vote, reviewed the thread and decided Kappy was acting weird enough that I wanted to vote him. I almost immediately realized that persivul had just called out sickofit for wagoning kappy, and I also knew since it was my wife's birthday I wouldn't be able to post for the rest of the day, I figured unvoting would be

safer

than leaving with such a

controversial post.

And I phrased it as I did because I wouldn't be worried about a quick lynch that did indeed flip a scum Kappy, but I didn't want to be implicated if I was wrong and he was an innocent townie.

Being only a few hours into the first day I wasn't ready to stake everything on one read.

This just reinforces the previous post. Of course, it was early in the game, so reads are logically not very strong yet. Even so, the game started rather quick so it's a bad sign nevertheless.

After a full review of the thread, I've gotta re-vote my RVS target:

VOTE: Dierfire

Stop hiding.

If I posted my reads list, it would just be pretty damn similar to everyone else.

I think it's obvious chumba is acting extremely pro-town, sickofit and kappy acting a little silly and scummy, and just about everyone else falls in between.

Hard to have a strong read on anyone at this point in the game.

I'd like to at least see a couple posts from every player by now, the game has been up for almost 24 hours right?

This attack on the player who hasn't posted yet is very safe. He again reiterates how hard it is to get reads. The blue part suggests that he thought about posting a list, but figured that it would look like he is just copying other peoples. He probably think it makes him look scummy.

I was thinking that too, but

this is my first normal game so I didn't want to make assumptions.

Shady is a newbie with about a dozen posts, I was just trying to get him to add an avatar and it worked.

I don't like your vote either, do you want to fight about it? Not posting at all feels like a safe play for scum, and without a little tiny bit of pressure the hiding player can step in, make a minor observation and then hide again for awhile. If everyone had posted by now, I still might be voting for the player with the least posts, if I didn't think they posted any actual useful content.

Are you being obtuse? When I made the post, I immediately realized persivul had called out sickofit for doing virtually the same thing, and there was a bunch of back and forth on the topic.

I decided I didn't want to get into that mess when I knew I would be out and unable to post.

Now that I am back and able to post, bring it on

More useless content about his policy vote. Then says he basically is afraid of getting into a mess if he sticks his head out.

Yes, and who wouldn't want their alignment indicated?

In general, I don't put a lot of trust in day 1 reads. Yes, I do have a couple players noted in the back of my mind as acting a bit suspicious, but I think they are already getting enough pressure and my vote isn't needed. So I'd rather get some discussion going among the less active players and see how they act and react before even thinking about who the first real lynch should be.

I tend to be a fairly active player when I'm not sleeping. Yesterday was an unusual day for me, so I was feeling a bit paranoid knowing I wouldn't be able to be actively posting.

Maybe that paranoia made me come across as scummy.

Policy vote, yawn. Also want to note that he is again excusing himself here. He did that before also. Perhaps I should have colored that as well... Either way he's clearly very worried about looking scummy, much more so than a town player would.

Then 171, 180, 183, 184 more of the inactive stuff, even when unprovoked.

Somehow I didn't pick up on this the first time I skimmed it. I see whats going on, I was aggressive towards hiding players, so qubixes heads me off and votes me first before he goes into hiding for the rest of the week. now I can't vote him without it being OMGUS!

I don't know, maybe this is something I need to learn from.

I tend to distrust hiding players in every game, feel free to look at my game history. When you give them a free pass, how can you make sure scum doesn't abuse your goodwill?

He is trying to justify here that he attacks inactive players by using his own meta. Note that he hasn't been attacked on his meta at this point. I think it shows that he thought about it probably beforehand that attacking inactive players would be ok, since it was part of his meta.

Ha! You can vote me if you think I'm scum. Why are you so worried if it looks like an OMGUS? If you give solid reasoning why I'm scum, it's not OMGUS. You seriously think that I would vote you, because I'm afraid you're going to vote me for inactivity? Also self-meta doesn't look good to me. Apparently you're aware of what you normally do, and you do it here, so that proves... exactly nothing, except you want us to believe you're town?

I meant that in a joking manner, maybe it wasn't obvious enough. I'd absolutely vote you if I thought you were really scum, but even if you are going to hide for a day or two you have been making readable posts prior to that so I don't really have an issue.

This doesn't really fit in my color scheme, but I was very concerned by this. It feels a bit wrong here that he is pseudo-defending me here for making "readable posts". I think this is a clear attempt from scum to try and manipulate me into backing off.

239, 247

, more null reads and a weak back off from kappy.

I've been lurking

, I've had a few thoughts but I wanted to see where the Persivul:Saru thing went. Since that seems to be sputtering out, I'll cut in.

[-snip-]

Again almost written as an excuse. Looks like he's worried for being called out for lurking.

Not going to quote

359

. It just reads like a lot of nothing to me. It looks long and impressive, but when it comes down to it, there is a single town read in the whole thing and no scum reads (don't count null/scum or null/town). Sure he put the effort in, but to me effort != town here.

Saru

Additional note: Extremely defensive, correcting my read almost immediately...

null/scum

I'm kidding, of course.

I don't expect my reads to be all that accurate being where we are on day 1.

Getting a bit bored right now, because I think the pattern should be rather obvious right now. More excuses for not having strong reads, yawn.

I'm already voting Karnos, so that's really too bad .

[qubixes]

I also defended kappy to sort you, see if you would be interested in some new idea's, but I was rather disappointed.

Actually your response to my PBPA on kappy did have an effect. I still see him as scummy, but am considering the possibility that he's just town goofing around.

Oh, well it didn't sound like it too me. Anyway, it's good that you're at least considering other possibilities. Interested to hear your thoughts on Karnos.

[qubixes]

I remembered reading him as very open towny, so I looked through some of his games where he was town and his play here doesn't look anything like it.

I sorta agree with your analysis, but when I open the spoiler I drown in words and colors and argh why. Please, for the love of god, don't wall like that and especially don't do post-by-post. It's really hard to read and often can intimidate people into agreeing.

It looks like I have been a bit overzealous indeed. I thought I would just find a couple of things, but I found really a lot. Honestly though, if you don't want to wade through the whole thing, the main point is made outside the spoiler. The only main point that I could add is that there do seem to be a decent amount of excuses in his ISO.

You don't like the colors? Aw, I thought it would be handy to more quickly skim the quotes for the different points. Maybe we should hold a vote! I'll not do that anymore if everyone hates it obviously.

Also, I'm fine if people agree without reading the quote wall. So don't feel intimidated if you agree without reading it .

[qubixes]

I'll comment on what I think about Karnos from reading your post after I look over some of his town games and meta. But, for what it's worth, just reading through your post without actually looking at the games you linked to, I do see your reasoning for suspecting Karnos.

I personally loved the colors and found that they helped me follow your points better. Seems to just be a matter of preference.

You shouldn't be fine with people agreeing with just a TL;DR tbh. Or even posting a TL;DR in the first place. Too easy for lazy scum to just agree with it and jump on the opportunity to vote. Make it harder for scum who are acting townie, not easier.

Well, the way people hop on to the wagon in itself can also give away their alignment. If we find scum lazily hopping on the wagon, that's fine with me too. Though of course if I'm correct in that karnos is actually scum, their partners are not likely hopping on lazily . I don't know really. Some people are going to be lazy regardless of alignment, so for those a summary is good to get the point across. Also, I think with a summary at the start the wall itself is more easy to follow.

[qubixes]

Qubixes: I don't really feel the need to explain myself to you in detail, the majority of the points you brought up have already been explained. I will say that your entire posts reads like someone who has already decided to vote me and is just looking for excuses to justify that vote... which does match your current situation.

In addition to what Saru already said. The reason I made this (huge) post/case on you is to get you lynched. I don't see how it can be interpreted in any other way. And that is even

if

you believe that I am scum. Very weak response so far.

[qubixes]

Actually I missed exactly what you quoted, I thought you were posting the other part of his message.

"there aren't that many scum in the game"

is incredibly specific, when I only indicated 4 potential scum. It means there are 3 or fewer scum in the game.

I think you're reading it the wrong way. He says that you need more town reads than scum reads, because there are more town than scum in the game. You had 4 scum reads and 3 town reads, so I don't see this "scum slip". He doesn't say here that there can't be 4 scum in the game (though unlikely).

[qubixes]

Karnos is not looking good at all. To be perfectly honest, I'd be voting him right now if Kappy was answering questions and/or being proactive.

VOTE: mechagoomba

Been near the top of my potential scum list for some time, and the last few interactions with him just gave me a bad vibe. Maybe this vote will just serve as an empty gesture, compared to the existing wagons, but I feel my prior vote is no longer serving a useful purpose.

@karnos

I can easily interpret the OMGUS the other way around actually. Whether he actually voted for you at that point doesn't matter so much.

Btw, you're the only one acting like OMGUS is a legitimate scum tell here. If you truly believe that OMGUS is not a scum tell, then why call it blatant, or bring it up at all. The fact that you say that you don't believe it, kind of makes the acting bit more true about yourself.

[qubixes]

You are not wrong about that first part, I am letting meta-observations from other games slip into my thinking here. However...

you're the only one acting like OMGUS is a legitimate scum tell here

What I actually said:

In all seriousness I don't consider it a scum tell

How exactly do you read "don't consider it a scum tell" to imply that I think it is a legitimate scum tell?

No, I don't think you consider OMGUS a legitimate scum tell. The way you brought it up looked like you were

acting

that it was. Why call it "blatant" when there is nothing scummy about it? Blatant town?! Blatant null?! Here is the quote again for reference:

Oh I see, nice OMGUS. In all seriousness I don't consider it a scum tell, and I hate it when people act like it is a scum tell, but I can't resist point out how blatant it is in this case.

How am I as a reader supposed to think that you bring up something that is completely null/irrelevant?

[qubixes]

Now I feel stupid. UNVOTE:

Why? Do you think his other reasons are good?

[qubixes]

No, I don't think you consider OMGUS a legitimate scum tell. The way you brought it up looked like you were

acting

that it was. Why call it "blatant" when there is nothing scummy about it? Blatant town?! Blatant null?! Here is the quote again for reference:

How am I as a reader supposed to think that you bring up something that is completely null/irrelevant?

Because it still has a meaning. I'm just saying his vote on me might not be motivated purely because he thinks I am scum, but rather as a reaction to me voting him.

So, you're saying that either:

- He is scum, and he is retaliating towards you.
- He is town, and emotional and wrong about you.

You think his OMGUS kinda makes you more town somehow? So basically you're trying to discredit his vote on you by saying it is OMGUS. Did I get that right?

I think by calling it "blatant" and "doesn't make him scum but

certainly

not town" is just an attempt to make him look more shady. If you don't want to do that, don't add these terms.

[qubixes]

@Saru: I don't find the change in playstyle very impressive,

after

I called him out for it. It's basically a confirmation that I was right about it. (Don't believe it is coincidence.)

[qubixes]

If you don't consider my read of you in 359 to be an attack, is that tacit admittance that everything I read into your ISO is true? Notice how my reads on you were longer than anyone else? Notice how I didn't really have much good to say about your ISO? Are you still confused what other reasons I had for voting you?

I don't consider it much of an attack either.

- You are voting someone else.
- It is part of a big read list.
- You're putting him at null/scum.

Also, you're just picking a bunch of twisted/bad (imo) interpretations of Mecha's posts and calling it bad. It doesn't feel like you were really putting in some effort to actually try to accomplish anything with the read at that point.

I hope that the replacements will bring some more life to the thread. Right now, it feels like a micro on Day 2.

[qubixes]

@Wingback Why do you read Dierfire as town?

[qubixes]

@Johnny Hi!

Yes, Karnos is (a.s.) scum, but there's no rush.

[qubixes]

I made a case in 372. Since then he has changed his style to be more aggressive. But I feel it is just to try and match his meta after being called out on it. Also his attack on Mecha is full of misinterpretations and shade casting. The misinterpretations are not necessarily alignment indicative, but I think with the (forced) change in style it does make some sense that he is trying to attack someone on anything he can find.

[qubixes]

The case doesn't hinge on it at all. In fact my 372 post has no mention of it. If you think I'm scum because I "know" that it was a misinterpretation, you should probably read the thread first and see what I mean. If you're not convinced, we'll talk about it then.

[qubixes]

you're picking from those who already have votes? Why? also voting your second biggest scumread? don't like this one bit.

I answered in 205. Also, I was voting my primary scum read. I first called Kappy my biggest scum read, then called karnos a stronger [scum] read in the next paragraph. I just didn't bother to fix it in the kappy read. Also, I explained why I wouldn't have voted for kappy anyway: no recent votecount.

Either way, I hope we can now actually start building a real wagon on Karnos.

[qubixes]

VOTE: karnos

What made you vote karnos now?

[qubixes]

@Wingback I kind of see where you are coming from on your Dierfire read. What I don't really like about his ISO is his attitude towards kappy. It feels to me a bit like he doesn't really believe in it but still likes it to see happen. I guess that counts more or less as a gut read for me. Also his last few days have been rather disappointing in content, but obviously that could have external reasons. Either way I don't feel particularly strong about Dierfire at the moment. I do see him as a good candidate for being a partner of Karnos, but we'll have to see the flip first I guess.

Also, GreyICE is the mod, so...

[qubixes]

Personally, I don't really see the point of waiting out the deadline here. I doubt scum are going to reveal themselves regardless of Karnos' alignment. Anyone agree/disagree?

[qubixes]

Yeah, I guess. I mean, it's hard to see any surprises happening, but it might also give them a decent way into the game. I guess species might also be replaced at this point, since he hasn't posted since Sunday, which was only a prod dodge?

Still, I think it would also be fine for them to come in at the start from Day 2. Then at least something is happening, now it just feels a bit drawn out. (I'm a bit bored.)

[qubixes]

Personally, I don't really see the point of waiting out the deadline here. I doubt scum are going to reveal themselves regardless of Karnos' alignment. Anyone agree/disagree?

Really? I guess my opinion will be disregarded since I am the one under the microscope here, but that type of reasoning is always scummy. You have time, use it.

Yes, really. I don't feel like the time before the flip is going to be of much use. For example this back and forth between you and Mecha is imo just filling up the thread and not actually getting anything done. I don't feel like anyone else is really getting anywhere either (me included). So unless someone else wants to push in a different direction, I think we're just wasting time. Saru is right that if the replacements would want something different, it might be useful to see what happens. Now, not so much.

If you are town, blindly pushing Mecha isn't going to help. I think you should be lynched Today pretty much regardless of what happens from now on. But if you're town and you want to help us after your flip, I think you should try and see if you can find any other pointers in this game, because I think your case on mecha looks pretty bad, i.e. I wouldn't follow it even should you flip town.

[qubixes]

Anyway, for bloodthirsty players like Mecha and qubixes, why not use this time to be productive? If I am scum, who are my scum partners?

I'm really curious to see what you think, seeing what you think prior to my flip is much more valuable from a town perspective. If I'm going down, I'd like to take at least one scum with me.

I'm not very sure yet. Connections wise with you, I think there are not a lot of people that I can just write off just given that you are scum. Also, the amount of inactives/replacements is making this quite hard at the moment.

I'm probably going to be around tomorrow to figure it out though. What about you? You think I'm ever scum with Mecha here?

[qubixes]

@mod: what happens to species, is he coming back?

I hope so. If not, I'll seek another kind volunteer for replacement, but given the current situation I'd rather give him a chance.

[qubixes]

He did say it was "obvious" why he was leaving "someone" out. I'm assuming he is not thinking here that he is "obviously" reaction testing. So, I guess it's because he already gave his reasons?

[qubixes]

He did say it was "obvious" why he was leaving "someone" out. I'm assuming he is not thinking here that he is "obviously" reaction testing. So, I guess it's because he already gave his reasons?

Yeah, he said that when making the readslist. I think he knew people would ask about why he left out Persivul and he didn't want to explain at that point and "ruin" the test. But he left a vague enough hint to avoid being pressed on it.

Wouldn't he want that as either town or scum though? I mean "reaction testing" is not a town-only thing.

@Karnos: Not sure what you're trying to argue there. No one is arguing that timing?

[qubixes]

@Masquerade Hi

@Wingback:

I don't know exactly what happened. In a vacuum where I don't scum read Karnos #1 also makes sense. I personally don't think the omission is particularly alignment indicative. I mean if he was really reaction testing as town he could also not omit persivul? Which to me makes more sense as town as well.

As scum these kinds of reaction tests can be quite useful, because you can decide afterwards whether you like or not like the reaction depending on how the wagon forms. Or even decide whether it actually was a reaction test or not. In that sense it is a very flexible tool as scum; he could be planning #2 or #3 at the same time and decide later. Of course it doesn't work the other way around that a reaction test immediately makes him scum.

I'm not sure I agree with the competence argument. I think if he can do it as town, he should be able to do it as scum.

[qubixes]

@Wingback: I read through some of his town games, and it felt very different to me than the style he played up to my big case. And the switch in style also makes me confident that the careful style is not his natural style. I think that if he was really reaction testing, he'd be more aggressive about it as town. (I think reaction testing town reads is kind of silly/bad idea, but I could see some thinking it's a good idea.)

I think you might want to have a short look at one of his town games. To me it felt like night and day to his play here.

@JohnnyFarrar: Do

you

want to play? Read up yet?

[qubixes]

Ugh, not really feeling like defending my case/responding to other peoples town reads on Karnos anymore.

I mean seriously, how hard can it be to at least get him to L-1?

[qubixes]

@Masquerade: Because it's picking one thing and claiming that makes him town, disregarding all the other stuff. I'm not convinced the two things that have been mentioned are very much alignment indicative at all.

I feel there is a good case on him. There are no good alternatives at the moment. But for some reason it goes so slowly. To be fair, it's partly because of all the inactives/replacements I guess. And I'm slightly bored.

[qubixes]

@Mathblade: hi!

I agree with most of your post and I'm happy Karnos finally makes it to L-1. Probably don't have to say this, but if Karnos claims, don't CC.. However your 1), 2) and 3) are not quite compatible (i.e. one of them is wrong). If Persivul vs sick is TvT, and Karnos and Wing/sick have the same alignment, that means that Karnos is town..

Also, I doubt it is Karnos+Wing+Masq at this point. It would be a rather ballsy plan to double down on defending Karnos without any town support. I think it could be either of the two though, but I will have to reread and think it through.

[qubixes]

Oh so you do have something to add then?

To whom is this addressed? Me? Johnny?

[qubixes]

@Wingback: We'll have to disagree on Karnos then. When I read his town games, it feels completely different than here to me. Also, you're using the competence argument on Karnos both ways. He is not good enough scum to fake a reaction test, but he is good enough scum to not say he is worried about being implicated. I don't think the difficulty of the two things are vastly different, so please choose.

At this point I'm not willing to compromise, and I don't think there's much that will change my willingness.

[qubixes]

That should read "who is scum is

Karnos

is town?"

If Karnos flips town, I think you or Masquerade would make good partners for somehow knowing he is town. I did have a town read on Mizzy though, so I'd have to check back and see if that makes any sense.

I understand what you're saying, but I still disagree. As I said, I don't think the difficulty of the two things so different.

[qubixes]

(the bit about calling Persivul vs Sickofit TvT doesn't make sense either since Sickofit is my slot).

Btw, I think scum are less likely to get confused about who is who, and who is scum/town. Just some food for thought.

[qubixes]

What is the point of tying you and Karnos together if Karnos is town? He said that you and Karnos probably share the same alignment, so after Karnos supposedly (according to you) flips town, he wouldn't go after you? I just don't see the point from a scum perspective.

I think that the amount of care to figure the game out is for a large part a personality thing. But I still think scum is more worried about getting flak for saying something stupid (like mixing up your argument) than town.

If you don't think Mathblade was confused, then let's call it sloppy instead?

[qubixes]

If Karnos flips town, I think you or Masquerade would make good partners for somehow knowing he is town.

So if they're scum if Karnos is scum and also if Karnos is town, wouldn't that just make them scum?
I get what you're going for; the whole "let's oppose the inevitable wagon to get towncred when they flip town" thing is rather common.
However, I'd be more inclined to look in other places (not going to say it right now to avoid tipping people off, expect me to return to this during twilight or D2).

It's imo not only the towncred. Getting lynch on another townie now, makes the path tomorrow much easier (get Karnos lynched). Anyway, I don't feel particularly strong about that connection, and I don't think Karnos will flip town, so it's rather futile to think about it now. Better save it for tomorrow. In case Karnos flips scum, I don't think both of them are scum. One of them maybe (leaning towards Masq then).

@Karnos: If you're town here there's no dilemma. If you're scum though the dilemma is pretty real indeed. I have seen no intent to hammer.

[qubixes]

Well, then don't out them if you think it is a town power role? I'm not seeing the problem here. You're also not required to give a full read list. Just start somewhere, where you think your effort is best used. Also, I'm not pushing you in a corner to get you to out a town power role, that is a silly allegation.

[qubixes]

Kappy - Early on, I took kappy for a null/town who could be easily miss-lynched due to an immature play style. Since than inconsistencies pushed that read down, but I still don't think he is obvious scum. Maybe I am just hanging on to hope, because I sense that defending him is part of what brought a wagon to myself, I don't want to find out I was defending a scum.

Not going into all of your reads, but this one caught my eye. If I read your ISO I get a the following progression of your read:

1-239: slightly scummy
239-359: slightly townie
359-now: slightly scummy

Am I wrong? Also, I don't see you defending kappy really anywhere? I saw you were discussing with Mecha about Kappy, but I didn't figure it was a defense..

@Saru: If you want a Karnos claim, you'll have to state intent to hammer it looks like or wait for someone else to state intent.

[qubixes]

171 "Since my vote isn't doing anything as far as pressure thanks to Mizzy, and I don't expect to see another post from dierfire for awhile, I'll just try this.

VOTE: Kappy

We are past the RVS silliness, what are your serious reads now? Based on your read list, you rate sickofit and chumba as scummier, yet you are still voting persivul, any reason why?"

I wasn't reading him as scum, or "slightly scummy", I was voting him because of one specific action. This is where MechaGoomba comes out and calls me scum again, because town would *never* vote unless they think they caught a real scum. When kappy returned and changed vote I figured that settled things.

>Also, I don't see you defending kappy really anywhere? I saw you were discussing with Mecha about Kappy, but I didn't figure it was a defense..

I don't know what it was, TBH. Mecha was attacking me for my read of kappy, which was null/town. I figured Mecha thought kappy was scum and wanted me to support his view, and he got upset when I stuck to my points. I don't know anymore. Was it just a pointless filler exchange?

To me 112, 117, 198 read like you're scum reading him. Wrong?

Ehh. In your reads list you call kappy null/scum. So I thought you were on the opposite sides...

[qubixes]

@Mecha: Seems about right.

The list of scummy things Karnos has said/done so far is just getting longer. Don't really have much to add to the discussion at the moment, except one thing that kind of bothers me.

Any town player still scumreading Karnos after this is knee-deep in confirmation bias and should re-think their views.

This just feels wrong to me, in a manipulative way. Let's be honest, your case of him being town is a couple of snippets that you think make him town. The counter case is a truckload of evidence to the contrary (even if Karnos tries to present it as a bunch of meta tells). So you're presenting a niche case and you're accusing others of conf-bias if others don't agree. Great! This tells me that either A) you're scum or B) you're town, but I can't trust you (in your reads).

@Karnos: Stop the mason stuff, it's not helping town (it never was).

[qubixes]

What about the case that he is Neapolitan and scum? Neapolitan seems to be quite a useful role as scum, so I don't see the problem there. Also, don't really see the useful results we would be getting if we're letting him be alive. I mean he obviously shouldn't claim his results outright, since it would have a high chance of outing PR's. So it's useful when someone claims VT/PR when Karnos has a check on him? And then we would still need to believe he is town aligned, because otherwise we're going to be manipulated super badly.

Still disagree about CC'ing. If the wagon falls apart completely, maybe. Also what if there is a Neapolitan+whatever cop (town aligned)? Or is that never going to happen in a normal?

[qubixes]

@Masquerade: Can I sign up for idiot town too?

So, every time someone claims a PR, we're going to build a wagon on someone else? Sounds like a great way to out some PR's and get a VT lynched. Don't see why I should move my vote. Lynch the lurker for the win?

[qubixes]

Am I a lurker?

How would you qualify it yourself? Inactive/busy? You seem to be reading the thread at least.

[qubixes]

So, every time someone claims a PR, we're going to build a wagon on someone else? Sounds like a great way to out some PR's and get a VT lynched.

You appear to be missing the part where if there was another Neapolitan or even a cop of some sort, karnos would be instalynched.
Do you seriously think that mafia!karnos just happened to guess that this was a setup with no cops at all?

A) Not everyone has checked in yet.
B) Not everyone would counterclaim.
C) Yes, fake claiming some kind of cop when you're scum seems not a bad play, outing the cop when you're on the chopping block seems like a fair trade. Day talk makes this more likely. Also scum might have more information (composition of the team) that makes cop less likely.
D) Karnos can be a scum neapolitan.

[qubixes]

Am I a lurker?

How would you qualify it yourself? Inactive/busy? You seem to be reading the thread at least.

All these labels man. I'm just here, poorly playing mafia.

I don't think I'm a lurker lynch, though. If you wanna say voting me for not providing content is stupid, you should just say that. I very well might say it if this wagon goes anywhere, but trying to fit this into the mold of some common situation isn't going to convince anyone of anything.

Sure. What I wanted to say is that it feels like the "easy" wagon, without much substance. On the other hand, I don't have really much grasp on your alignment either way. We'll see where it goes I guess.

[qubixes]

We've got three days to deadline and your vote is sitting on an unCCed claimed cop. All of the things you're saying are technically true and none of them are enough to justify that.

I am voting whoever I think is the most likely to flip scum. Problem?

[qubixes]

This is a self-preservation claim (NAI) If Karnos is scum that wants to lure out a town-pr he could have claimed cop, or (and imo more likely) try and lure out the doc.
If I didn't just finish that game with Karnos (where he was scum and there were masons) I would think he was scum trying to get out pr's.
So I for now believe Karnos is town unless modconfirmed evidence or a believable cc counters that.
And I think that's the best way to handle a claim from someone at L-1, unless it's lylo/mylo.
Also, in another game of mine not too long ago I was wagoned and I was a JK, which I obv claimed, and there was 1 guy that did not unvote, he would not believe I was JK. Mind you, this was an open setup (Sharing is Caring). He flipped scum.
We're not lynching Karnos today without a cc, I'd rather not see anyone cc Karnos Day 1 but on the other hand, I don't want to bet this game on pr's. Only 3 days left in the phase if I read that correctly.

I'm not sure how I feel about Johnny's wagon, votes piled on quickly after mine. Starting to worry I just started a cc for scum :/ so ye, re-evaluate it is.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. My biggest problem here is imo not whether Karnos is Neapolitan or not. It is whether he is town or scum aligned. I don't understand, is there some hidden ratio here that makes Neapolitan >80% town or something? Because I remember a discussion somewhere about (I think) the exact role, and how useful it is for scum. Could even be inspiration for the setup even, I guess. Also, you don't really get caught with it? So how do we determine which alignment Karnos is later on?

So what is the plan then if you let Karnos live? Let him claim VT's, not claim Role/Mafia. Then lynch him in LyLo? It feels like the benefit of this is rather marginal, especially compared to lynching scum day 1. Please explain me your plan in case Karnos is scum/Neapolitan.

[qubixes]

Alright high and mighty, be obtuse because that sure is helpful to town. Here's my question again, you can read it slow.

You say in 653 that you don't want to vote Karnos. You say you want to vote me. Then you vote me.

20 fucking posts later.

Why did you wait?

Okay, I read it really, really slowly as can be seen here but still couldn't understand it. Can you say it a bit more slowly. With feeling this time?

I think it is a fair question. Why not answer it?

[qubixes]

Alright.

UNVOTE: karnos

[qubixes]

Probably don't have to say this, but if Karnos claims, don't CC..

Ok interrupting my recap for a direct question -

Why exactly did you say this Quib?

Because I felt very strong that Karnos was strong and I thought a lynch could happen without a town PR getting outed. Looking back, it seems I was wrong. I thought Karnos was going to fake claim, because of the "whatever lynch me" to the "I'm a PR" transition. Well, looking back he claimed PR after my post. Maybe I was wrong, but saying it didn't seem like it could do much harm.

Btw, reading back. Post 505 "You have time, use it." could be interpreted as a scum slip. Too bad English has the same word for singular and plural. I guess it doesn't matter much at this point.

[qubixes]

@Magna: Can you elaborate a bit on your Saru town read?

I was town reading him somewhere in the middle, but I'm doubting that read again. His voting pattern looks really quite bad imo. He has jumped on three wagons that were already formed: sick, persivul, kappy. Then he calls out Karnos for being scummy, but doesn't vote.

I'm not going to convince anyone at this point on lynching Karnos today. But there is a difference here with a regular cop claim. If Karnos is actually a scum neopolitan, lynching him today does take away a very useful tool for scum.

[qubixes]

@Magna: Thanks for the elaboration on the CC stuff. I'll keep it in mind.

I'm more worried about the timing of the votes/cases. It seems a bit delayed from what is going on. Maybe that is slightly unfair in the case of the sick wagon, because that was his first post. But I feel that so far he hasn't been exploring many new directions, just grinding out the ones that were already there. The Persivul attack felt over the top to me. I agree that his reasoning has been solid as far as I can see. I'll look at the wide net casting at some point.

His predecessor was very close to the top of my scum list. It felt very much over the top, trying to present some kind of confident image. I think his wall looked alright when I read it. Could read it again to see if I find something fishy. His semi-attack on me about the misinterpretations did feel a bit like shade casting, but I'm of course a little biased. The sitting back while the Karnos wagon is building also seems rather scummy, especially considering he asks why Karnos isn't lynched yet in his read up. The reason I'm a little hesitant is the "I'm busy" part. I could see the lack of voting and general apathy result from just not being really engaged in the game. I feel like I don't have a clear grasp on the slot yet, though to be honest I don't feel very strong on anyone besides Karnos really.

[qubixes]

Yes, I called Karnos scummy

initially

, but if you read through my ISO, I started to be more conflicted on my read of him as the arguments went on between Karnos and others. Eventually, I said I was neutral. I see no point in voting a neutral read when I already had my vote on someone I felt was genuinely scummier, which was Kappy.

And about being on wagons, instead of looking at me jumping onto wagons, it'd be better if you looked at the reasoning/motivation behind why I chose to vote who I have throughout the game so far. Reasoning for all my votes can be found in their respective posts, but if you need a summary for each, I'd be more than glad to provide you with one.

As I said, I did look at the reasoning. I do think it is solid enough (kappy vote maybe the least convincing to me). But I also have to account for the possibility that you're playing solid scum. I don't actually strongly scum read you at this point. But in every list you are a top town read, and I currently feel differently. So, I want to figure out why others read you as top town. Makes sense?

[qubixes]

@Magna: I reread the post again, and you're right. It actually doesn't look so good after all.

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

Scum might just kill the target that we assign, right? Though I guess the best targets would be scummy looking people, that scum don't really want to NK. Also in case Karnos is town and there would be a scum busdriver, that would be less than fun...

[qubixes]

@Saru: I missed that post when rescanning your ISO (it's interlocked in the Persivul exchange). That actually makes more sense now. I also agree that he needs to put out more content.

What do you think about Johnny?

@Johnny: and he can be scum neopolitan too...

[qubixes]

@Johnny: This is my fourth game, so never? It does seem like a reasonable role to claim as scum though to me.

@Wingback: Mostly because it was another opinion in the same vein. At some point it is clear I'm not going to convince anyone to lynch karnos. Also, we played in the same game (though not at the same time, replace vs NK), and it seemed like he is a good/experienced player. I'm actually still not 100% convinced that we shouldn't lynch Karnos, but I'm obviously fighting windmills, and I might be wrong as well.

At that point I was still "stuck" on trying to get Karnos lynched. And yes johnny did feel a bit like the easy lynch, and I'm still worried it is, though a little less because of the reread. I think it also plays a role that I didn't like your style and your read on Karnos. Obviously that is irrational, but it is what it is. It also helped that he directly engaged me. And yes, rereading that, your post makes a lot of sense.

[qubixes]

@Wingback: Also, for some reason I have a gut feeling that Johnny is town, which makes it more complicated also. I don't know. I hope the extra days will help me solidify my read.

[qubixes]

I have never done this 1v1-thing before but now I get why people want to. I want to prove math is wrong SO BADLY I want to flip for it.

Don't understand what the point of proving him wrong is going to do. If you flip town, is that going to make him scum? Why are you so sure that he is scum? Can you give me a (concise) explanation why he can't be town? I read the back and forth arguments, but I don't see why Mathblade has to be scum.

[qubixes]

@Qubixes: Here it is very, very concise:

Snork wasn't impressive at all. You so far have focussed most on Karnos, you also kept your vote there very long and in one of my previous posts I explained why I think that's scummy (683). You keep throwing shade my way but you don't engage with me and you ignored what I said about you in 593 and 669.

And math keeps on ignoring or miss-reading everything I say. Do you agree with his observations of me in his 803? To me it feels like he went through my iso and looked for keywords he could use against me, but he got a lot of stuff so wrong I'm not even going to dignify it with a response.
And why is he starting a new wagon on Dierfire, which picks up a little bit of steam, then switches to another new wagon with now even less time left?
My flip won't prove mathblade's alignment in any way or form, I mostly hope that everyone sees math's case on me blows. I offer myself into a 1v1 because of how certain I am that he's scum.

If you're going to say he is likely scum, because he kept his vote on Karnos for a very long time, I'll have to disagree for obvious reasons (I'm town). Also, I don't think his observations in 803 are all wrong. We should have still plenty of time, because of the replacement that is coming in, so I don't see the problem there either. I don't understand why you wouldn't give a response, because it's all so wrong. Why can't town be very wrong? If it's so very wrong, it should be easy to disprove it? What is scummy about being wrong?

[qubixes]

Too many the huge wall posts lately. Can't anyone write a concise short point anymore?

Can you give me a (concise) explanation why he can't be town?

Mafia is a forums game based on READING. Reading isn’t a hardship.

Frankly I was sick to death over this attitude my first go-round on MS and I’m not any less sick of it now.

I specifically said that I did read it, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough for you what I wanted. I wanted him to summarize what he thought were the strongest points of his read on Mathblade. I can read the ISO, and yes I get some reasons why he thought mathblade was scum. But I didn't think it was very convincing, so I thought a summary might give a more convincing picture.

[qubixes]

@Saru: So you don't like the Johnny wagon and think I'm scummy. Yet, you say you don't care if someone hammers?

I was talking about post-flip associations in 380. But you already know Johnny will flip town, maybe? As I said, lazily hopping on another wagon only makes sense (is AI) if I'm scum hopping onto a town wagon. You're also aware that if you apply the same logic to yourself, you're also scum?

And yes, I didn't feel very strong about anyone really. Even on Johnny I didn't feel strong (because of gut read). So what? Finding more than one scum on Day 1 is hard, period.

Actually

UNVOTE: Johnny
VOTE: Saru

I don't really see the point of pushing you too much to be honest. Because it feels like a wasted effort when you're town read by almost everyone (afaik), and it's also too close to the deadline.

Thinking about the lynch. I don't like a math lynch. I also think that Wingback is probably town, even though I strongly disagree on Karnos. I think Dierfire is a decent lynch at this point. I think his ISO reads quite soft to me. I summarized it a long time ago in 488, which is why I had asked Wingback about his town read at the time. As I said, I still think he makes an excellent scum partner for Karnos too, though he could do the same if karnos turned out to be town.

VOTE: Dierfire

[qubixes]

@masquerade: At some point you said that there might be something suspicious in my ISO, but you would check to make sure. What were you looking for?

[qubixes]

@Karnos: We still have more than two days now.

[qubixes]

Wow... Not expecting the hammer either. Why should Johnny have claimed? He is only at L-1 since very recently. Also, wingback was trying to see whether a Dierfire lynch would be possible, so we'd have had at least 2 votes.

@Karnos: I think you should decide for yourself. That way we can also hold you accountable for your choice, instead of you just saying someone else suggested it.

Not too hopeful for a scum flip, given how the day ended. If he does flip scum, I'll have to re-evaluate for sure.

[qubixes]

Actually, no. No. I'm not going to risk another unvote and end up with apathy and no flip.

VOTE: Johnny

Why do you think it would have ended up with apathy and no flip? I think almost everyone has stated willingness to lynch Johnny, so why do you think a lynch wasn't possible at a later time?

[qubixes]

I think wingback means that the most likely counter-wagons to Johnny's were your wagon and Dierfire's wagon. If Masq is scum panick hammering, he is most likely to be panicking because there is a competing scum wagon that he wants to prevent from taking off.

[qubixes]

@Mecha: I think Masq VT claiming is not a good idea. If Karnos fake claimed he is basically given the easiest pass ever. It would only help if they're both town. (Which I don't believe.)

[qubixes]

@Saru: The gut read I was talking about was a "town gut read" on Johnny, which is why I was conflicted about his slot. Given the way the lynch went down in the end, I'm a little less conflicted right now.

Obviously I'm not just having a gut read on Karnos, that's ridiculous.

Policy lynches are pretty lazy imo. And if you don't like the wagon, why not do something about it. Because basically ever since the Persivul argument, you have been sitting back. You voted Kappy for reasons already stated before, sure. But that was 10 days before the original deadline, so this frustration about the deadline feels rather weak, unless you think deadlines should be 5 days? You have just been popping in when someone asks you something or it is about you, which makes perfect sense if you're scum and feeling you're being universally town read.

And don't make it appear like it came out of totally nowhere. My questions to MoI made it obviously clear that I had some reservations at least towards your slot. But at least you got a good laugh, right?

[qubixes]

Except you were already sitting back before that point? Your response was rather lackluster. Sounds like a poor excuse to be sitting back, especially considering you were already sitting back when the Mecha/Math/Magna thing happened.

You're splitting hairs here. I think it's obvious to anyone that reads even half my posts that I feel strongly about Karnos being scum. "anyone" -> "anyone but Karnos". Whatever. You think that's scummy? How?

I was planning to keep my vote on you, but realized it wasn't going to do anything. I left it in there, yes. Currently I feel the most likely scum team is Karnos/Saru/Dierfire, in that order. So yes, I was trying to show how I read the game at that point. Was it slightly theatrical? Sure, why not. But I don't think it's scummy.

You're not improving on my list, if that's what you're asking. It's kind of pointless at this point though. I would like to see the flip and have a thorough read through your ISO, but that can wait for Tomorrow. And no, you're not dead stone scum to me, especially with no flips.

[qubixes]

I did town read you for 438 actually. The things before and after are what makes me scum read you. Don't understand why you're trying to needle me while having a town read. Anyway, this is going nowhere for now, so I'll leave it for tomorrow.

[qubixes]

@Mecha: Wouldn't a scum Johnny flip not implicate me more? Also, obviously wasn't the reason I hopped off.

[qubixes]

@Mathblade: Will answer your question after Mecha answered mine.

VOTE: Saru

[qubixes]

Except my vote isn't random? (And I doubt Firebringer's is.)

[qubixes]

Wrong again, sorry.

[qubixes]

We have two weeks now, instead of two days. I might vote Dierfire at some point, depending on what will happen.

And no, that wasn't the reason I thought your voting pattern looked suspicious. Not sure why I should be careful. Do you think I'm a good lynch candidate?

[qubixes]

@Mathblade: I don't want to influence Mecha's answer by explaining my question. If he's not around today, I'll get to it tonight/tomorrow.

@Saru: I don't feel your questions are honest, so I don't feel compelled to answer them in an elaborate way. At least not right now.

[qubixes]

@Saru: So impatient. If I was nervous I would have answered your questions.

[qubixes]

@Saru: So impatient. If I was nervous I would have answered your questions.

Impatient? Interesting. So what should I be patient about then? If you can't answer Mathblade's question because of the excuse you gave, then what is it that is stopping you from answering mine? The level of "honesty" in my questions shouldn't prevent you from giving an honest answer if you're town. A delayed answer is usually dishonest.

I understand, you have to talk it over with your scum buddies. Take your time.

I need to talk it over with my scum buddies?

Your apparent lack of honesty doesn't prevent me from answering your questions, that much is true. It doesn't compel me either though. If you want your questions so badly, why didn't you engage seriously with me at the end of Day 1?

[qubixes]

What do you think 917 920 923 925 were all about?

If you're not compelled, then there must be a reason for this. I've already pointed out how the "honesty" of my questions can't be the reason, and you've affirmed that. So, I must ask, why aren't you compelled to answer my questions?

You were being a jerk (e.g "Have fun") yesterday. You threw some accusation my way, and you defended yourself. I don't think that is engaging me seriously, but maybe I should have said constructively. I was planning on ignoring you for a bit today, but I got curious how you would react to my behavior. I will get to your questions surrounding the Johnny lynch tonight when I have some more time, because I looks like others have some doubt about it too.

[qubixes]

@Mathblade: I don't want to influence Mecha's answer by explaining my question. If he's not around today, I'll get to it tonight/tomorrow.

@Saru: I don't feel your questions are honest, so I don't feel compelled to answer them in an elaborate way. At least not right now.

....That....is......stupid. How would explaining your choice of words influence Mecha's answer?

I formulated it the way he seemed to be thinking about it and not necessarily how I was thinking about it. That answers your question? I thought it'd be easier to explain after Mecha's answer.

[qubixes]

@Masquerade: Congratulations on hammering someone you thought was town two days before the deadline then. Also, wingback was a threat to me and kappy? Really? Or you think Wingback looked like a PR?

(Ninja'd)

[qubixes]

@Mecha: Wouldn't a scum Johnny flip not implicate me more?

No. If you were bussing, you'd have no reason to jump off the wagon right as the lynch became inevitable. It would waste the towncred gained from bussing.
Hopping on to push the wagon, then having misgivings when it was inevitable so you could get towncred for predicting it?
Also, I really like how you said this before Johnny flipped town. Smacks of foreknowledge; I know I'd never defend myself based on the flip of someone I don't know the alignment of.

Why was it inevitable? Also, it wasn't a defense. I wanted to know whether you'd think my action was scummy too if Johnny flipped scum. Thinking back on it, it wasn't a very useful question in the first place, since if you're scum you would know what Johnny was going to flip..

The plan of trying to get towncred by jumping off the wagon, accusing the one who just cast some shade on my hop-on, then complaining that Johnny got lynched. That sounds like a really bad plan to me. Especially given the amount of attention I drew/tried to draw.

When Saru jumped on I got cold feet. His shade casting on me while very reluctantly joining the Johnny wagon seemed really off to me. And I was already scum reading him. When Karnos jumped on afterwards I was pretty sure that it was a bad wagon. Then the Masquerade hammer... I would be very surprised if all of them flip town.

[qubixes]

We have two weeks now, instead of two days. I might vote Dierfire at some point, depending on what will happen.

And no, that wasn't the reason I thought your voting pattern looked suspicious. Not sure why I should be careful. Do you think I'm a good lynch candidate?

I didn't ask you when you were going to vote Dierfire. I asked you what made you change your vote from him to me over this night? The length of D2 can't be the reason you switch your vote to me given that you say you won't vote me on D1 because it'd be hard to push a lynch on me seeing as I was being town read. So that's a non-answer. But good try. +2 for effort.

Also, even if having 2 days left(plenty of time by the way, you even admit to that in 900)

was

a reason not to push a lynch for someone, then why even bother voting Dierfire in the first place? Why didn't you just keep your vote on Johnny before I called you out on it? Or better yet, why even try to vote anyone at all? Why not wait until D2 to put out your vote?

Also, I didn't ask

why

you thought my voting pattern looked suspicious. I asked if my voting pattern was one of the reasons you questioned my slot in the first place. Once again, non-answer. Don't worry, I found the answer for you: 743. You're welcome.

As for your question, yes, I think you're a good lynch candidate. Your responses to my questions have been lackluster and most importantly, contradictory. Very different from D1. You don't seem to do well under pressure.

I didn't think 2 days was enough to lynch you, and it would have been a waste of effort/time. Dierfire seemed like the next best possibility for scum, and Wingback (who I had a town read on) made a case on Dierfire which I thought was pretty good. Since you jumped on the Johnny wagon, it seemed like the best wagon to push. Obviously, when I think the main wagon might be town, I shouldn't be just waiting for Day 2 to make my vote. I don't know why you would suggest that.

I don't know what your point is about the voting pattern. You seemed to imply (again) that I was scummy because of my votes were shifty, and that I accused you of the same. I didn't accuse your votes of being shifty, I accused your timing to be suspicious, i.e. delayed. So I answered it briefly, but correctly, no.

I don't have any need for advice such as "stop getting emotional". Don't worry, I don't miss any sleep over it. Doesn't mean you're not acting like a jerk. It's even fine if you're scum to be honest. Undermining someone's credibility is a totally valid strategy. Because that is what you are doing. And it is scummy as fuck. (Not misguided as fuck.)

[qubixes]

@Mecha: Ask me a question if you want to figure me out? I thought your "if Johnny flips scum, we might want to lynch quib" rather scummy, because it sounds like you're trying to line me up for lynching. So I tried to figure out whether your intentions were good or bad. Then just now realized I wasn't going to figure it out by asking that question. What point do you want me to address?

[qubixes]

1) Do you scumread me? If yes, are you planning on pushing me any time soon? If no, what was the "if you're scum" part of 998 about?

Not really at the moment. Your "if Johnny flips town, maybe we should lynch qubix tomorrow" gave me some bad vibes, but that's about it. My question was to try and read you, but it partly depended on you not knowing Johnny's alignment. If you're scum you knew Johnny's alignment, so I can't read you properly. In other words, I was trying to see if I could persuade you in saying that I would be even scummier (in your eyes) if Johnny flipped town, which would be super scummy in my eyes. In hindsight, this was too ambitious, and too reliant on you making a mistake as scum.

2) In 998, you said trying to get towncred by pushing to halt an inevitable townie wagon would be "a bad plan." Why is this, and why should I expect that scum!you didn't make a mistake?

Not sure what you're trying to get from me here, but I don't see scum!me doing that. I haven't played too many games, so it's kind of hard to say what scum!me would do anyway (even for me). I just haven't really seen anyone get towncred for jumping off an (according to you) inevitable lynch, so it seems kind of pointless to draw all kinds of attention this way.

3) In 898, you've said your scumread on Johnny was weak; why vote him in the first place, then?

Because he seemed at that time a reasonable alternative to Karnos. Getting more than one strong scum read is hard, especially Day 1, and I felt kind of deflated that Karnos got away. Also, the players on the wagon didn't seem scummy to me. Do you think it's bad to vote a weak scum read close to the deadline? (Also, the deadline was closer and further away at some point.) If yes, what do you think about Saru/Karnos/Masq's votes?

4) In 898, you also said you didn't feel strongly about anyone. Can you point me to any proactive efforts you've made to change that?

After I gave up my Karnos quest, I didn't really know what to do. And Saru (and you IIRC) was right that the thread was a bit of a pain to read. I tried to get some interaction with Magna (about Saru) to get more into the game.

5) In 1000, you said you didn't vote Saru because it would've been a waste of time to try to lynch him. Why didn't you apply the same reasoning to Dierfire?

His position seemed less strong than Saru's, just judging from the thread. If I was wrong, I should have gone for Saru. Not that it would've mattered really. Do you think it's scummy? Why would pissing off one person, and trying to get someone else lynched be a good strategy as scum? (Unless me and Saru are partners I guess, but that sounds a bit unreasonable right now, doesn't it?)

[qubixes]

@Saru:

Thanks for pointing out I have emotions, mr. Robot, really helpful. You really are twisting my words the way you like. I didn't call you a jerk for saying my reasoning on the Johnny hop was bad.

And jumping off Johnny's wagon is like the opposite of delayed. The Johnny wagon wasn't evaporating, so my hop off wasn't "delayed". If you want to find examples in my ISO, my hop off Karnos' wagon could be seen as delayed (though imo a bit too delayed), and my hop on Johnny's wagon was slightly late, but much less so than yours and Karnos's. Obviously, town is sometimes going to be delayed, and scum is sometimes going to be first. However, when it becomes a pattern, then yes, I think it is an indication. And I have seen it catch scum as well, so call it "nit-picking" or "weak as fuck", whatever.

[qubixes]

Math: What do you want me to say about the flips? I didn't believe Johnny was scum when I hammered him and I had Wingback as a strong townread. They both flipped town which means

my reads there were accurate

. I agree with Fire that scum will likely kill pr-suspects or threats, not for framing. Why would scum kill Karnos' biggest defender? Because they really want Karnos mislynched. At least, that's my humble opinion.

@Masquerade: This was the reason I thought you had Johnny as town. Why would you say your reads are accurate when you had them as null+town? I mean I guess you were right on one flip. Why bother calling your reads accurate anyway? Does your opinion becomes more important because of it?

Qubixes, yes, my hammer was bad. It was selfish. I was afraid we were going to end up no-lynching and took matters into my own hands and hammered while I still had the chance. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sorry but it happened, we can't change it. So if you scumread me for it you go and push me and make a case on me. And if not then just stfu and accept that it happened.

Where did this come from? Because I said that out of the three (Karnos, Saru, you) I would be surprised if all of them flipped town? Out of the three I think you're the least likely to flip scum at the moment, so there's that. I'm just kind of wondering why it triggered you though, since I wasn't bringing it up to say Masq is so very scummy. I just wanted to explain why I thought it was (very) unlikely that Johnny would flip scum.

What do you think about Saru?

[qubixes]

@Saru:

How was I supposed to know that he would be hammered a page later? That's like the opposite of delayed?

Also, if you want to compare the sitting back, I'm afraid you're going to come out worse than me unfortunately (kind of stupid to compare it to myself, but since that's what you're doing, I'll follow suit):

between 438 and 868, you're sitting back expect for when I tried to prod Magna about his town read on you, and you defended yourself. I would argue that I tried to do a whole lot more in that period. (Just dual-ISO us.) Do you really want me to make lists here?

I might do a comprehensible case on you at some point, but right now I don't feel like I'll be listened to anyway, so that would be kind of disappointing.

@qubixes If you think that Karnos, Masquerade, and myself are most likely to flip scum, what happened to Dierfire? Where does he stand for you right now?

I didn't say that? Sometimes I feel like interchanging Masquerade and Dierfire on my list, but I would be surprised if

all

of Karnos/Masquerade/you would flip scum. Either way, depending on what happens Dierfire is currently not my priority.

[qubixes]

1 Weak town, not strong town. Weak enough to hammer, not strong enough to defend. How is that not understandable?
2 Because you keep finding ways to remind people that I made a bad hammer, but you don't push me about it directly. That makes me think you are scum that wants my misslynch but is too much of a pussy to push for it himself.
3 Saru is probably town.

Johnny wasn't a townread. I just didn't believe he was scum. [...]

You said he wasn't a townread, except he is a weak townread apparently. How is that not confusing?

Yes, I think it was a bad hammer, but why should I push you about it if you're not my top scum read, and you already explained your reasoning? And I did push you on the town part of the hammer. Maybe you don't like the snarky remark tactic, but it did give me something back. I wasn't trying to implant the scum!Masq idea specifically by mentioning the way the lynch went down. It just seems very unlikely that three players come in 2 days before the deadline with no particular taste for scum!Johnny to get him lynched are all town. Do you disagree? (Well from your reads you apparently do).

[qubixes]

@Saru: I had already written up most of my post when I saw the intent to hammer. And I mean after my unvote, why would I be so sure that he would be lynched? He was then at L-1 without intent. I tried to prevent a lynch from happening. If you say I was too late in the realization that I should prevent it, you're right. That's not what I mean by being "delayed". What I mean by "delayed" is compared to what the rest of town is doing. The rest of town seemed to be heading in the direction of lynching Johnny, and I was not. Different direction => not "delayed".

I am putting my vote where I think we'll find scum. There is no reason for strategic votes at this point in time. And I'm pretty sure you're scum, not because I'm mad at your behavior. But I do think that behavior was part of your agenda.

[qubixes]

The thing that seems to be the most confusing though is how I don't mean someone is a strong townread worthy of defense when being lynched, when I say I don't scumread them.

I don't think that is particularly confusing. Though it isn't really what happened here, is it? Nobody accused you because of not defending Johnny. But we're getting back to the original point of hammering a weak town read, which you already explained and I expressed my opinion on.

[qubixes]

The thing that seems to be the most confusing though is how I don't mean someone is a strong townread worthy of defense when being lynched, when I say I don't scumread them.

I don't think that is particularly confusing.

Though it isn't really what happened here, is it?

Nobody accused you because of not defending Johnny. But we're getting back to the original point of hammering a weak town read, which you already explained and I expressed my opinion on.

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you mean with the line I bolded^

I get this right according to you?:

Johnny was not a scum read, but a weak town read not worthy of being defended.

I don't think that is particularly confusing, and not particularly scummy either. But what actually happened was:

Johnny was not a scum read, but a weak town read worthy of being hammered.

The confusing bit for me is that you called him "not a townread", "not a scumread", which apparently can be a "weak townread" according to you. (I would call it a null read.)

[qubixes]

I feel Saru has a higher chance of scum than you, pretty simple. And I think Karnos has as well.

Your story kind of makes sense for me (even though I still don't agree). Especially because I also felt rather conflicted about Johnny at the time (though for other reasons). I don't know, I think I'll need some more time/flips before I can place you well.

[qubixes]

@Mathblade:

I don't see your point about my interactions with Masquerade. We interacted pretty often actually D1? What was weird about my vote/unvote? And, I'm never defending Karnos either. Actually, I'd be down for a lynch, but it doesn't seem to be happening. And I wasn't pressuring you? Kind of confused with your "spritual vote".

[qubixes]

@Quibixes ---OMG dead horse. That has been beaten soooo many times. Moving off that Johnny wagon without supporting your own is bad. Misrep on the Karnos thing -- I said Masq defended Karnos. Masq was pressuring me but was really lazy d1. Now it seems like they care to put in actual effort. This feels like you are trying to go "noooo not bussing" These are not the droids you are looking for.

I wasn't sure what "they" included there. I supported the Dierfire wagon, which Wingback just made a big case on. What's bad about that? And yeah I think your suggestion of bussing here is really weird, with basically no evidence to back it up. Other than that we interacted very little D1, which wasn't actually the case.

[qubixes]

Why are you so focused today on Saru (other than he is pushing you) as opposed to Dier today then?

Because I have a stronger scum read on Saru. Also, I find him rather annoying as well. Didn't really feel like he was pushing me for real either, more like trying to piss me off.

I still don't really get the feeling that Mathblade is scum. I feel like they have been getting into fights with almost everyone at this point, and I don't really see how it furthers their scum agenda. That said, their push on me was kind of weird when they're apparently scumreading me for something I said before their catch-up in which they thought I was town...

I kind of want to make a case on Saru, but it might take some time, so don't wait for it I guess?

[qubixes]

Will get to this game at some point I hope. At least it seems not much has happened the last couple of days...

[qubixes]

Grrrr bad phone
@Quibixes
We playing the same game?
Titus replaced Kappy
Masquerade looks to be lynch shopping
Found a duo that refuses to read each other (Masq and Dierfire)
And potential scum teams are emerging
So yeah I think a lot has happened.

Unless you don't think this counts as a lot?

Most of that happened (already) before I was gone. Dierfire did read mizzy (masq slot) in 494. It seems unlikely to me that he would go out of his way to cast shade on a teammate that is widely town read. Do you disagree? Which scum teams are you referring to?

qubixes -- Strong Town lean -- Post

175

-- I think qubixes is spot on with the Persuval v Sick discussion. [...]

For Quibixes it would be

175

-- It feels fake. [...]

Why the change of heart?

[qubixes]

@Karnos: why can't they be both town?

[qubixes]

Alright. You made it sound like Dierfire flipping town would make it more likely that MathBlade flips scum, but apparently that is not the case?

What do you think Dierfire will flip?

[qubixes]

Karnos provided no reason why it would be more likely I would be scum except his POV I am scum. Of course that is his POV I have been screaming Karnos is scum the entire game and he wants me discredited. Duh.

The main thing is he wants to save Dierfire. It is so obvious to me it is ridiculous.
Seriously it has to be Dierfire/Masquerade/Karnos.

I force Masquerade to take a stand on Dierfire so they vote them in a pinch.
Then Karnos comes in and says "ooooh look at this shiny. Don't you want it more?"

So blatantly bad it makes my skin crawl.

I agree it looks like a good possibility from the actions so far in the game. I feel like scum would try to be a little less blatant about it though, so I'd think at least one of the names is wrong (and yes I thought Saru could be the less obvious part of the team). Maybe I'm wrong though. In that case scum kind of panicked.

@Karnos: What will your hammer prove?

[qubixes]

@Karnos: Risk what?

[qubixes]

@Dwlee:

I'm still on the Karnos=scum train. After the hammer on Dierfire, I'm a little worried Dierfire might be flipping town after all. I mean, what's the point of hammering your buddy when there are 2 intents to hammer? I doubt he will get much town-cred for that. To be fair there's not really much point in hammering a town!dierfire either, unless Masq is scum perhaps?

If dierfire flips scum, masq makes a good amount of sense (wingback NK, quickhammer yesterday)

if dierfire flips town, saru maybe? Maybe find someone else outside of masq then.

[qubixes]

@Karnos: Risk what?

A bus.

My town read on dierfire was largely based on MathBlade being scum and pushing the lynch on him. After the last exchange, I'm wondering if it's actually a bus in which case I'd be setup perfectly to be lynched tomorrow after dierfire flips scum.

The lynch seemed inevitable, so holding back and looking guilty as hell in case of a scum flip wasn't worth the risk.

If he does flip town, well at least my instincts were right, but we already had a claim, and we already had intent. The lynch was going to happen whether I hammered or not.

But how does a hammer help you in that case? Do you think it makes you look less likely to be scum if Dier flips scum? You said you were trying to hammer him to prove him wrong, right? ("prove you are full of it") It's like you're trying to say that MathBlade is bussing Dier, but hammering him somehow proves that it was not you that was bussing..

[qubixes]

@qubixes: No hard feelings? <3

I hoped you were scum...

You think I'm a terrible noob. I get it.

Doesn't mean you have to go out of your way insult my play at every corner. I mean seriously, like half the mason thread is about saying how terrible (or scum) I am. (Slight exaggeration.) You're even saying my read/case on Karnos is bad even if Karnos flips scum... It's kind of fitting we lost the game after you recruited him.. (Though I doubt we would have won even if you recruited town instead.) And you would never recruit me because of my style, not alignment? Ew.

I know I'm not a great player. So what. You learn by making mistakes. I genuinely thought you were scum for discrediting me (among other things). Turns out you were town discrediting me. Whatever, if/when I play another game probably not with you.

@MathBlade: I was killed trying to frame Saru? That's kind of unexpected. I mean, it didn't look like I was really getting anywhere.

The most frustrating part (apart from the whole Saru 1v1) for me was not getting any solid town reads. I tried a couple of times to get some positive interaction, but kind of failed. (Well, some of them were scum, so that makes sense..)

If someone has some constructive feedback for me (i.e. not u suck noob), I'd be interested to hear.

[qubixes]

It's kind of late to the party, but thanks GreyIce for hosting! I feel sorry you had to find so many replacements!

@Wingback, Dierfire, Mathblade: Thanks for the kind words!

@Saru: Alright, I'll let it go .