Mini 1800 - Game Over


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Post Post #3 (isolation #0) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:51 am

Post by Persivul »

VOTE: Kappy

For self voting.
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Post Post #15 (isolation #1) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:26 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 8, Mizzytastic wrote:Persivul, you honestly think self voting there is scummy or that just an RVS vote?
Just RVS.
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Post Post #16 (isolation #2) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:27 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 10, Kappy wrote:I don't like RVS wagons because it's too easy for someone to accidentally hammer if they come in and don't read the thread.
That argument gets tossed around a lot, but RVS derphammers are really rare.
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Post Post #18 (isolation #3) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:29 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 13, Mizzytastic wrote:Soooo, if thats your worry, how worried do you feel at L-3 and with one of the votes being your own?
Good point. Kappy, if you don't like RVS wagons, why are you still on one?
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Post Post #23 (isolation #4) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:37 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 19, Kappy wrote:I am voting for sickofit, not myself.
OK, missed that.
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Post Post #27 (isolation #5) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:07 am

Post by Persivul »

Spoiler:
In post 7, Sickofit1138 wrote:
In post 5, Kappy wrote:VOTE: Sickofit1138
For following a wagon. Obvscum move.
lol i thought i was first post but to each his own...
In post 9, Sickofit1138 wrote:first to post at all. i didnt know i was hopping on a wagon
In post 17, Sickofit1138 wrote:i saw them and didnt chage it

If you saw them, you did know you were hopping on a wagon. But, you claimed you didn't know you were hopping on a wagon.

VOTE: sick
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Post Post #31 (isolation #6) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:32 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 28, Kappy wrote:Maybe he just didn't feel like changing it.
That's fine by itself. The issue is that he then lied when he said he didn't know he was hopping on a wagon.
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Post Post #32 (isolation #7) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:32 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 30, Kappy wrote:For not realizing I changed my vote.
You still self voted.
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Post Post #36 (isolation #8) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:43 am

Post by Persivul »

mod, my vote is on sick
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Post Post #40 (isolation #9) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:56 am

Post by Persivul »

Weird that the vote counter would interpret sick as mizzytastic rather than sickofit, but anyway:

VOTE: Sickofit1138
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Post Post #58 (isolation #10) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:23 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 57, Sickofit1138 wrote:Actually Percivuls general misunderstanding and not reading the thread spells s-c-u-m-m-y to me at least
You have that backwards. People tend to be more careful as scum than as town.
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Post Post #63 (isolation #11) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:29 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 61, Chumba wrote:You knowing that though just means you can play messy as scum and use that to your advantage
As wifom applies to like 90% of the game, pointing out its possibility adds nothing.
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Post Post #64 (isolation #12) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:33 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 49, Sickofit1138 wrote:Since you are still on this topic and apparently don't understand, I posted my vote and it got to the preview and it showed the two first votes and I was like eh
who cares I'm fine with a wagon
.
I understand that, and by itself it doesn't bother me. The problem is that you said in 9, "
i didnt know i was hopping on a wagon
"

One of the bolded is an outright lie. Which one is the lie, and why did you make it?
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Post Post #67 (isolation #13) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:55 am

Post by Persivul »

He apparently thought it was a wagon, else he wouldn't have thought "I'm fine with a wagon."
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Post Post #69 (isolation #14) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:05 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 68, Chumba wrote:
In post 66, Chumba wrote:I actually read that as he was ok with a wagon happening.
What, are you saying that he didn't really think a wagon was happening, but just had the thought that,
hey, if a wagon
were
happening, I'd be OK with that...
?
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Post Post #72 (isolation #15) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:17 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 70, Chumba wrote:I can't speak to what he was thinking. I'm just saying that's how I interpreted it.
He told us what he was supposedly thinking. You don't need to guess at it or interpret it.
Either way I don't think it's that damning.
There are lots of issues on D1 that aren't that damning. Small issues can lead to bigger ones. Is it your policy to defend anyone against a charge that you don't find that damning? I doubt it, so...why are you defending in this case?
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Post Post #116 (isolation #16) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:17 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 113, ShadyHood wrote:Of which one of the five has an excellent chance to be scum.
In a 13 player game, 3, or 23%, are usually scum. Early in D1 you can draw any five names and say one of them is probably scum. In other words, that was a really safe and meaningless observation.
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Post Post #122 (isolation #17) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:51 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 120, ShadyHood wrote:Yet your response to my post is ironically the meaningless observation,
Incorrect. Scum like to make observations which kinda sorta sound like scum hunting but are actually safe and don't rock other people's reads too much. That's what you did. Me pointing that out is scum hunting.
I brought up a subject that one of the five can be scum, then you try to shut the topic down with a lack of town-motivated reason, which of our post's is more meaningful?
Mine is more meaningful by far. I pointed the finger at one person - you. You pointed at five people, said one might be scum, and made no attempt to sort them further. You didn't even beat random odds.

If you had said something like,
One of the wagon A,B,C,D,E is probably scum. I'm town reading A & D, so that means one of B,C,E,
that would have at least narrowed things down to less than random odds, and would have been somewhat meaningful.
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Post Post #136 (isolation #18) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:04 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 132, ShadyHood wrote: Why did I say that
one
of them has an excellent chance to be scum and didn't mention a chance of town in my post?
Because you're intentionally being ambiguous in order to appear to be scum hunting without actually doing so.
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Post Post #137 (isolation #19) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:09 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 134, Sickofit1138 wrote:I am huge eye candy for an easy scum lunch d1. It's definitely happened before. My play style is sloppy and I am admitting that but it's a reach to say I'm contradicting myself for it. I explained what happened.
I saw the wagon after I pressed post and it showed the first two posts and I just went ahead and posted it


I still don't see why it doesn't make sense and contradicts each other.
You keep dodging the real issue. The above is fine, by itself. But in , you said "i didnt know i was hopping on a wagon."

"I saw the wagon after I pressed post and it showed the first two posts and I just went ahead and posted it" and "i didnt know i was hopping on a wagon" are indeed contradictory. Which one is the truth?
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Post Post #144 (isolation #20) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:34 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 139, Sickofit1138 wrote:
In post 135, karnos wrote:
In post 134, Sickofit1138 wrote:
If you are town, keep the fuck out of my way and help me scum hunt. If you are scum, keep following my scum filled wagon and expose yourself all the more.
This really makes me want to vote you. Knowing how you play, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt a little longer. Call this a
FOS
Don't worry I'm toning it down from that game.
Which game is that, and why are you toning it down?
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Post Post #150 (isolation #21) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:46 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 145, Sickofit1138 wrote:You know.
OK. Considering that and a scum game of yours, my thought was that if town you'd be overly defensive and OMGUSsy. Through 125 you read to your scum meta. 126 and 130 were more townie, but still not strong. 134 and 139 make sense.
UNVOTE:
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Post Post #151 (isolation #22) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:49 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 141, ShadyHood wrote:All I see here is a scumteam(all of them)trying to take advantage of someone's minor mistake and making it look like a big commotion.
Look at Sick's wagon, there is certainly one scum hopping on that ride.
Is it all of them on the wagon, or just one?*
My best scumreads are everyone from that wagon, with Persivul and Saru being my strongest reads.
The wagon is driven by a reason that Sick contradicted himself. It doesn't look right when the town voted up someone for such a merely weak reason.
NSS, you have to go on weak reasons at the beginning of the game.*
Join me with this one, the rest of you all willing to get a good win,
VOTE: Persivul
* The above are rhetorical. It's doubtful 14-yo newbie scum is going to come in this aggressively. Shady is likely town.
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Post Post #157 (isolation #23) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:23 am

Post by Persivul »

Reads:

Town to some degree: Sick, Mizzy, Shady, Mecha
Null: Chumba, Snork, Saru
Scummy: Kappy, Karnos, Qubix, Species

Kappy flip would probably give the most info.
Karnos is very self conscious but that might be playstyle rather than scummy.
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Post Post #158 (isolation #24) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:25 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 140, Sickofit1138 wrote:I like where karnos is at in this game. Null-town.
Why?
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Post Post #159 (isolation #25) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:26 am

Post by Persivul »

VOTE: Kappy
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Post Post #160 (isolation #26) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:34 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 152, Sickofit1138 wrote:I have a pitch.

We lynch persivul today: here's why:
If I am lynche today and flip town, persivul can weasel his way ou of a lynch tomorrow.
If Percy is lynche today and flips town, I won't be able to work my way out of tomorrows lynch.

I think everyone is picking a side in this argument, I think we will all agree this is not a TvT.
I have a pitch: get over yourself. You're not helping town by forcing yourself to be the center of attention. You should know that.
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Post Post #161 (isolation #27) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:36 am

Post by Persivul »

Mizzy, who are your votables rn? We need a wagon.
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Post Post #165 (isolation #28) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:14 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 162, Chumba wrote: he's not hurting town either though.
Yes, trying to force a 1v1 early on D1 hurts town.
If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.

did you address your own contradiction yet? I haven't seen it if you did.
People push to sort. For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.
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Post Post #168 (isolation #29) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:17 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 163, Chumba wrote:I am also confused how you did a 180 on sick, your reasoning doesn't really make sense to me and using meta and what i assume is an ongoing game are both kind of meh.
As you note, it's a meta read based on my experience with him and a review of a completed scum game of his. It probably is meh to you. Unless you begin to push him, I don't have need to support it further.
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Post Post #172 (isolation #30) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:25 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 169, Chumba wrote:post 150 actually kind of supports my non belief actually. The fact that you say his posts up until post 125 match his scum meta means that up until that post you were honestly scum reading him.
Incorrect. A handful of posts matching meta from a single scum game is enough to create suspicion, but not a full scum read.
still not changing my vote off kappy
Your RVS vote.
but I fully support a persivul lynch atm
Does it concern you that I'm voting Kappy now?
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Post Post #174 (isolation #31) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:54 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 173, Chumba wrote:no that post plus your push on him clearly implies to me you were scum reading.
Are you denying that people push null reads in order to sort them? If not, do you have meta on me to support your inference?
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Post Post #182 (isolation #32) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:21 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 180, karnos wrote:I fucking called it. Exactly what I feared, happened- see bolded text above for emphasis. And your original response? "Lurking is NAI unless you have meta blah blah". I told you from the first response that I wasn't merely concerned with lurkers, I was also concerned with a lurker who posts the absolute minimum post and then goes back to lurking.
She's right - inactivity is NAI absent meta to that effect. He also curtailed activity in another, later stage game. I doubt he's skipping out on that game because he's scum who's afraid to make a D1 post here. You get lurkers through associatives, investigatives, or vigs. Lynching one D1 gives no information and is a waste. Voting them is a lazy excuse for scum hunting.
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Post Post #185 (isolation #33) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:47 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 184, karnos wrote:I tend to distrust hiding players in every game, feel free to look at my game history.
OK, I checked Newbie 1692. I didn't see you pressuring lurkers. On the contrary, a lot of your talk was about keeping pressure on someone who was at L-2.
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Post Post #190 (isolation #34) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:26 am

Post by Persivul »

Scum - Open 638 - "I don't like the hiding... it makes me think you have something to hide."
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Post Post #194 (isolation #35) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:38 am

Post by Persivul »

Currently thinking species and one of kappy/karnos, but not both.

That implicate thing is bad, but karnos seems to be an awkward poster in general.
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Post Post #195 (isolation #36) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:38 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 192, Kappy wrote:Looked it up myself. it's true!
What exactly did you look for?
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Post Post #200 (isolation #37) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:48 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 198, karnos wrote: Yes, and as town...

1700 In my (brief) experience playing here, I've noticed scum are often the quiet players who post the minimum amount to keep suspicion off, without trying to draw attention to themselves.

1692 Of course, I also find the quietest players are often that because they are mafia trying to keep a low profile, and the annoying talky players are sometimes just poorly playing townies, so you may yet be innocent.

It's part of my general thought process every game.

Also, FYI, 638 was multiball. While I was scum, I was also scum hunting to kill the other scum team.
Fair enough.
I see kappy is sensing weakness and pouncing. I'm feeling better about re-voting him.
Kappy is a good vote right now. Would like to see a VC.
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Post Post #203 (isolation #38) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:57 am

Post by Persivul »

Unofficial VC

Pers (2) - sick, shady
sick (3) - snork, species, saru
karnos (4) - mizzy, mecha, qubix, kappy
kappy (3) - chumba, pers, karnos
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Post Post #206 (isolation #39) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:07 am

Post by Persivul »

Spoiler: Off topic
Sharks rule the water...Penguins rule the ice! :D
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Post Post #212 (isolation #40) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:43 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 211, MechaGoomba wrote:Sick, would you mind saying exactly what Persy's contradiction is? I don't see anything of the sort in his ISO, and you don't seem to have said anything about it. The only thing like a contradiction is that he missed Kappy changing his vote, and, um, that is entirely NAI.
I believe it's that I said that town is more likely to be sloppy than scum, and I was pressing him on a contradiction which he claims was just sloppiness.
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Post Post #251 (isolation #41) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:40 am

Post by Persivul »

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66642

This game is now abandoned and can be cited. Check sick's play. He was town, but when pressured was very defensive and OMGUSsy. He even self-hammered as town. Compare that to this game where he was scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=66158

In that one he kept his cool except for a single post.

In this game he's in between those two. It reads to me closer to the first, and he said unprompted by me that he was toning down his style. So, I have him as town for now.
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Post Post #252 (isolation #42) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:41 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 248, Saru wrote:That puts persivul at
L-2
. Tread carefully people.
LAMIST
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Post Post #253 (isolation #43) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:44 am

Post by Persivul »

You're voting me Saru. You could unvote yourself. OTOH, if you think I'm scum, you would want me at L-1. But, you take the middle road - keep your vote on me, but instead of encouraging the wagon, you tell people to tread carefully.
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Post Post #260 (isolation #44) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:19 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 256, Saru wrote: This is not LAMIST because as I've stated previously, I wanted to see more out of you.
First, I have 44 posts, you have 15 - and you want more out of
me
?

Second, pressure tends to get information out of people. So, you urging caution rather than an L-1 is indeed LAMIST, and goes against your stated desire of getting more out of me.
Perhaps an answer to Sick about your contradiction, which you have yet to answer about.
I addressed it some time ago:
In post 165, Persivul wrote:
In post 162, Chumba wrote: he's not hurting town either though.
Yes, trying to force a 1v1 early on D1 hurts town.
If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.

did you address your own contradiction yet? I haven't seen it if you did.
People push to sort. For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.
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Post Post #261 (isolation #45) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:20 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 257, Saru wrote:Also, if you were put at L-1, I would unvote you until you did defend yourself.
Why? A quickhammer would likely give valuable information.
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Post Post #262 (isolation #46) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:43 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 258, qubixes wrote:@Persivul: What is your read on kappy now?

I reread kappy's ISO before he made his big post, and I think it is actually more likely to be coming from town. Mostly based on tone and some points he makes that make me think he is genuinely scumhunting.

I'll look through my list of suspects tonight (or weekend).
Kappy ISO:

First 14 posts are just screwing around and prolonging RVS
- theory
- "No strong reads atm," but gives a bare reads list anyway. Scum have incentive to do this because lists are generally seen as towny. As scum I've advised buddies who were in trouble to just put up a reads list, and it frequently works.
- reads list with some reasoning. Only thing slightly controversial was putting me in town. Most people are in null. Two scum reads are safe: several people were suspicious of sick, species wasn't very active.
- "Looked it up myself. it's true!" and sheeping on karnos is bad. I asked him what he had looked up, and he said he had just verified the one quote I gave. If he were really scum hunting he should have checked several games, searching for variants of lurk and hide. Chumba did just that, saying in "I was searching for lurking and hiding in his iso." Chumba's slot went up a notch for that.
- unwillingness to change read after karnos makes a good response
and - still trying to push me v. sick when, from my POV at least, that's over.

Also, a number of people have expressed an opinion on him, so the flip would be informative.

So, how do you come up with a town read?
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Post Post #265 (isolation #47) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:51 am

Post by Persivul »

Explain what my supposed contradiction is and ask a question. I'm happy to answer. I just don't know what you're asking at this point, and partially wonder if you even know yourself.
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Post Post #266 (isolation #48) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:58 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 210, Sickofit1138 wrote:
In post 162, Chumba wrote:
In post 160, Persivul wrote:You're not helping town by forcing yourself to be the center of attention. You should know that.
he's not hurting town either though. If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.

did you address your own contradiction yet? I haven't seen it if you did.
Oh my god thank you.
Same to you - what exactly is my contradiction, and what specific question(s) are you asking?
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Post Post #270 (isolation #49) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:39 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 267, Saru wrote:This. What do you make of your reasoning of "people tend to be more careful as scum than as town" being used by Sick to point out that through this line of reasoning, that would make him town in your eyes.
Already answered - I was pushing him for a reaction, as I had recent experience with town!sick under pressure on D1. The contradiction itself wasn't a big deal.
And while I understand you switched your vote off Sick and made him a townread, it was way after that post. During that post, you still were voting for him and pushing him on his posts.
Yes, as he was protesting to an extent, but wasn't flipping out the way I'd seen him do as town. BUT, in in a reply to karnos, he said he was "toning it down from that game." In - I confirmed it was the game I was using as his town meta, so the less strident response made sense, and I unvoted him.
Just to clarify, its not the contradiction that bothers me so much. It's your reaction to my(and others) asking about it when it first came up. The fact that you repeatedly ignored those questions seemed as if you were dodging a potential slip.
A potential slip? :roll: WTF, look to motivations, not potential slips. In I said his reaction matched his town meta and unvoted him. In I acknowledged that sick's contradiction was a weak reason to push, and noted that early on D1 weal reasons are all you have. THe town motivations for my course of action is evident. What is the scum motivation?
Why did I go out of my way to clear a person who I know to be an easy D1 mislynch target? Look to our last game together - he was a total VI, to the point of self hammering.
Like I said, I did the same exact thing with Sick, and he had absolutely no problem with clarifying the confusion on his wagon contradiction. You and I both were on Sick in the start to get a reaction out of him, and then base our reads off of that. We both pretty much townread him. In that same sense, I was on you to get a reaction out of you, and the one I got(or lack of) was disturbing, to say the least. You could just be horribly aloof, but it would have to be extremely aloof for you to miss the question posed to you a million times by myself and others in the start.
Yes, I tend to be aloof regarding questions that shouldn't be asked because the answer is already evident. IOW, I tend to play for the benefit of the good players, and only take the time to defend against bad reasoning when really necessary, as now.
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Post Post #271 (isolation #50) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:40 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 269, Saru wrote:
In post 165, Persivul wrote:
In post 162, Chumba wrote: he's not hurting town either though.
Yes, trying to force a 1v1 early on D1 hurts town.
If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.

did you address your own contradiction yet?
I haven't seen it if you did.
People push to sort.
For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.
Let me ask, Persivul, is the bold part of Chumba's question being answered by the bold part in your post?
Yes, obviously.
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Post Post #273 (isolation #51) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:01 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 272, Saru wrote:Do you seriously expect me to believe that you were answering the question?
No. You seem pretty black and white in your thinking. I bet other people can see that I considered it answered though.
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Post Post #274 (isolation #52) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:02 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 270, Persivul wrote:What is the scum motivation? Why did I go out of my way to clear a person who I know to be an easy D1 mislynch target? Look to our last game together - he was a total VI, to the point of self hammering.
So your answer is?
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Post Post #277 (isolation #53) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:14 am

Post by Persivul »

Irony is lost on you... :cool:
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Post Post #279 (isolation #54) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:16 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 276, Saru wrote:Also, you say you clear Sick via town meta from a previous game.

In post 172, you say "A handful of posts matching meta from a single scum game is enough to create suspicion, but not a full scum read."

So then would you agree that a handful of posts matching town meta from a single game is not enough to confirm someone as town?
Confirm? No. Move to the town side of null? Yes.

What's scum!pers's motivation for moving an easy mislynch target to his town group?
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Post Post #281 (isolation #55) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:33 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 280, Saru wrote: Ok so then, if both lead to a null version of their respected alignment, that means for you Sick should be a null read and not a nulltown read as you said that he played to his scum meta in the start and then his town meta later on. Wouldn't the two cancel each other out in your eyes, leading to a simple null read? This isn't an accusation by the way, just curious as to your viewpoint.
Reads evolve over time. I go with my most recent read. I don't average my reads over time to get my current read. Frankly that seems pretty stupid, and I'm surprised you advocate it.

Do you employ it yourself? You agree that my push on sick was townie. You find my lack of responsiveness to the question on the contradiction scummy. So, I should be a null read for you. Yet, you're voting me. Do you always vote your null reads?
And don't know why you keep asking me that second question as I haven't already answered.
That's why I keep asking - because you haven't already answered.
I've already told you that there is no scum motivation.
Oh fuck, you slipped!
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Post Post #282 (isolation #56) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:35 am

Post by Persivul »

I'm done. You can have the last word. I get the feeling you're not scum, but rather bad town - bad enough you need to hide behind an alt. :mrgreen:
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Post Post #286 (isolation #57) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:50 am

Post by Persivul »

Players who were posting elsewhere on site but let that 1v1 go on uninterrupted: sick, karnos.

p-edit: NSS, that was the slip. :roll:
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Post Post #288 (isolation #58) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:22 am

Post by Persivul »

Unofficial VC

Pers (4) - sick, shady, saru, karn
sick (3) - snork, species, kappy
karnos (3) - mizzy, mecha, qubix
kappy (4) - chumba, pers, dier, mecha
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Post Post #292 (isolation #59) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:46 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 289, karnos wrote:I find this a bit weird to me. You knew how he played in 640, and in 640 he got pushed hard and even eventually self-voted before flipping town. So in this game, you pushed him right from the start, as sort of a reaction test...
Yep.
but you knew how well that "test" worked in 640, what were you really trying to do? Give him enough rope to hang himself again?
Nope. Just because someone freaks out and self votes doesn't mean you never push them again. That's reinforcing the freak out. Plus, if it's going to happen, better now than in lylo.
Were you thinking that if he was scum you would get a completely different reaction?
Yes, I thought if he were scum he'd be better able to keep his cool, as in the linked game. As I said, his reaction came in somewhere between the two, but his explanation that he's consciously trying to stay cool as town seemed reasonable.
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Post Post #294 (isolation #60) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:58 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 293, Dierfire wrote:The conversation between Persivul and Saru bores me. From this, I conclude that they're both Town! (I'm only partially joking)
That's why I cut it off.
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Post Post #296 (isolation #61) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:06 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 295, karnos wrote:Persivul: that is about what I expected to hear, whether from town or from scum trying to act like they aren't scum.
So you asked a question which wouldn't help you determine alignment.

Just trying to look busy?
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Post Post #298 (isolation #62) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:16 am

Post by Persivul »

Why don't you surprise us all with a reads list?
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Post Post #305 (isolation #63) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:30 pm

Post by Persivul »

In post 302, qubixes wrote:Summing up, I don't have a super strong town read on kappy, but I feel (gut) that he is more likely to be town. I don't feel like he has been trying to push a scum agenda.
What kind of agenda do you expect to see from scum on D1?
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Post Post #308 (isolation #64) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:24 pm

Post by Persivul »

Have you seen anyone doing that? If so, shouldn't you be saying something?

Point is that scum frequently drift on D1 and see how things play out.
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Post Post #319 (isolation #65) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:40 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 318, qubixes wrote: I think there are players that have been more scummy, so yes I guess?
Who, and why?
Not sure exactly what you mean by drifting (seen the word thrown around a bit), but isn't it something town does as well?
Lazy town do. That's why we need to push people to sort them.
Why did you phrase your questions to me the way you did? Do you think I'm scum?
I find you suspicious.
Is it supposed to motivate me? (Hint: it doesn't) To me, it doesn't look like with the current state of the game, pushing someone I find scummy isn't going to accomplish anything.
What specifically about the current game state indicates that pushing someone scummy won't accomplish anything?
So why bother?
How do you intend to sort people if you don't pressure your scum reads?
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Post Post #320 (isolation #66) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:54 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 309, Sickofit1138 wrote:My problem is that what you are saying you are doing does not feel like what you are ACTUALLY doing. You only backed Olof on me once my wagon was losing momentum.
Your D1 feelings aren't very good historically. In 640 you were 0 for 3 on your final reads after self-hammering to get people to pay attention to you reads. You even town read the grey slot, which was like the easiest scum read ever.
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Post Post #327 (isolation #67) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:24 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 326, Saru wrote:However, let's use your point about Persivul actually answering the question in post 165 and let's say that it was a logical answer to the question, and that makes you satisfied with both Sick and Persivul in regard to their explanations. If we take that point, and apply it to the fact that Sick was willing enough to keep answering the question presented by Persivul and others over and over until it was finally cleared up, that reads as more townie to me as opposed to someone like Persivul who answered the question in one post, but wasn't willing to repeat it in more clear terms for us n00bs who obviously didn't see his answer clear enough. Why wouldn't Persivul just keep repeating his answer in a more clear way for these people instead of refusing to answer, and creating more confusion around it? Creating confusion is never a townie thing to do. I don't care how frustrated you are with the situation. Adjusting your explanation to fit other people's understanding is never a bad thing, and that's what Sick pretty much did and what Persivul didn't do.
This is what's wrong with this game so far. Too many people are just looking at their newbie list of actions that do or don't feel townie, and completely disregarding the motivations behind those actions.

You
don't care
about frustration?
Seriously?
You damn well better start caring, and learn to distinguish between town frustration, scum frustration, and fake frustration, if you want to be any good at this game.
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Post Post #328 (isolation #68) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:26 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 325, GreyICE wrote:Sickofit1138 (3): Snork, species, Kappy
This is a bad wagon.
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Post Post #341 (isolation #69) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:46 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 330, Saru wrote:OK expert mafia player, then please give me your motivation behind allowing confusion to run rampant about your answer. Let us n00bies know why we're so wrong. Please do. I really want to learn master. Please.
OK. Your argument against me is that I'm not proactively acting townie enough.
Scum has as much - possibly more - motivation to appear townie.
So, your point on me is NAI.
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Post Post #348 (isolation #70) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:56 am

Post by Persivul »

Saru, what's with the flip on Kappy?
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Post Post #349 (isolation #71) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:57 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 345, MechaGoomba wrote:
In post 341, Persivul wrote: OK. Your argument against me is that I'm not proactively acting townie enough.
Scum has as much - possibly more - motivation to appear townie.
So, your point on me is NAI.
... Persivul, that is quite possibly the WIFOMest argument I've ever heard anyone make.
Point out where it's wrong.

Not townie, or even anti-townie, is not always the same as scummy. You know that.
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Post Post #350 (isolation #72) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:58 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 343, The Bulge wrote:VOTE: sickofit

Eager to see something - anything really - from the shadyhood replacement
VOTE: The Bulge
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Post Post #356 (isolation #73) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:37 pm

Post by Persivul »

In post 351, Saru wrote:
In post 348, Persivul wrote:Saru, what's with the flip on Kappy?
From my previous posts, I pointed to Kappy being my second choice for scum behind you. Reasons for this are in those posts. However, since then, Mecha has come in and I feel has presented a good case in your favor, and so while I still have some doubts, I'm just reading you null for now. Plus, I want to pressure Kappy to respond and like I've said previously, I feel L-2 is a good point for that.
nm, I was thinking of qubix.
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Post Post #357 (isolation #74) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:39 pm

Post by Persivul »

In post 352, The Bulge wrote:
In post 350, Persivul wrote:
In post 343, The Bulge wrote:VOTE: sickofit

Eager to see something - anything really - from the shadyhood replacement
VOTE: The Bulge
words are important
The sick wagon is crap. you jumped on it.
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Post Post #358 (isolation #75) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:40 pm

Post by Persivul »

In post 353, MechaGoomba wrote:
In post 349, Persivul wrote: Not townie, or even anti-townie, is not always the same as scummy.
I'm parsing this as "I made a mistake". Is that the correct interpretation?
No, it's theory talk.
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Post Post #371 (isolation #76) » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:37 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 364, qubixes wrote:I also defended kappy to sort you, see if you would be interested in some new idea's, but I was rather disappointed.
Actually your response to my PBPA on kappy did have an effect. I still see him as scummy, but am considering the possibility that he's just town goofing around.
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Post Post #375 (isolation #77) » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:48 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 359, karnos wrote:I don't know how to easily link posts by post number. Is there some shortcut?

Code: Select all

[post]350[/post]


Or highlight the post number (nothing else, no spaces or # or anything) and click the "post" button. It's the last one.
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Post Post #402 (isolation #78) » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:41 pm

Post by Persivul »

In post 396, karnos wrote:
In post 393, Dierfire wrote:
How many Mafia players did MechaGoomba say are in the game?
"because there aren't that many scum in the game"


I didn't say he said how many are in the game, he implied that he knows how many are in the game. I just find his wording a little but too specific. He could have said there are
probably
not that many scum, or he could have said
usually
there won't be that many scum, but instead he wrote as if he knows for a fact exactly how many scum are in the game. A slip, or arrogance? Probably the later, but I want to see what others think so I point it out.
He said "There are always more town than there are scum."

And he's right, and I don't see how you can find that at all specific.

I was specific when I said there are usually 3 scum in a 13 player game. You don't need to be scum to know that. It's general knowledge.
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Post Post #406 (isolation #79) » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:19 am

Post by Persivul »

Here's the other statement: "Karnos: If you have as many scumreads as you have townreads, you need more townreads, because there aren't that many scum in the game."

There's nothing specific there either.
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Post Post #411 (isolation #80) » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:34 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 407, karnos wrote:
In post 406, Persivul wrote:Here's the other statement: "Karnos: If you have as many scumreads as you have townreads, you need more townreads, because there aren't that many scum in the game."

There's nothing specific there either.
A scum slip isn't negated because the rest of the post is reasonable.
A reasonable statement isn't a slip when you pull it out of context.
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Post Post #418 (isolation #81) » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:11 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 415, Kappy wrote:
In post 414, karnos wrote:w/e. I can see I am in the minority on this thought. All the same,
I was reading him as scummy before and after that post for other reasons
,
even if the slip isn't as telling as I think it is I am still voting him.
If there's no actual slip, just your misinterpretation, why would you vote for him? I don't understand that.
VOTE: karnos
WTF dude, he addresses that in the very post you quote.
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Post Post #435 (isolation #82) » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:54 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 434, karnos wrote:312 MechaGoomba quotes a massive wall of quotes, just to reply "I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos."
You're reading just to find arguments, not to actually understand and solve the game. He said in 313 to ignore the quotes, meaning he was referring to sick's preceding posts.
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Post Post #473 (isolation #83) » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:52 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 469, JohnnyFarrar wrote:GUYS WHY THE FUCK IS KARNOS STILL ALIVE
Did you vote him?
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Post Post #474 (isolation #84) » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:53 am

Post by Persivul »

VOTE: karnos
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Post Post #478 (isolation #85) » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:41 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 476, qubixes wrote:
In post 474, Persivul wrote:VOTE: karnos
What made you vote karnos now?
Johnny coming in with fresh eyes and pushing him.
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Post Post #540 (isolation #86) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:28 pm

Post by Persivul »

Checking in...waiting for replacements to catch up.
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Post Post #656 (isolation #87) » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:24 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 654, JohnnyFarrar wrote:Ooh let's get a wagon going on me, that'll be fun .

We def shouldn't lynch Karnos probably
Why are you being so useless?
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Post Post #658 (isolation #88) » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:40 am

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VOTE: Johnny

Came in with a big splash to get town read but then did nothing.
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Post Post #665 (isolation #89) » Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:28 am

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In post 659, MechaGoomba wrote:buddying active players a lot
Yeah I had that feeling myself when he came in.
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Post Post #749 (isolation #90) » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:54 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 744, MagnaofIllusion wrote:The reason you don't lynch without a counter-claim is that, even if you are 99% sure you are right, the downside to Town if everyone is wrong is devastating to Town's chances. There are always additional chances to re-assess Day 2 or down the line with more information.
If we're giving him a pass due to the claim, what should we expect in return? Should we collectively determine the target? Let him choose? If we let him choose, does he give VT results only, or all results?

I haven't thought it all through, but we should. If he's scum, whether neapolitan or not, we can use results against him.
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Post Post #783 (isolation #91) » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:18 am

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In post 769, MechaGoomba wrote:Karnos should out all "VT" results,
Agreed.
but no "Not VT" results unless they contradict claims.
Not sure about this. Such person is either a town PR
or scum
. Personally I think it's worth the risk of outing a PR for the chance of catching scum. PLUS, if karnos is scum and fake claimed, this lets him off the hook. He just says he got a not VT result with no risk.
The town should not attempt to direct karnos.
Agreed.
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Post Post #808 (isolation #92) » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:07 am

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In post 804, Dierfire wrote:Persivul has not been as active recently, but I don't see anything suspicious in his posts. The reason for the vote on JohnnyFarrar (658) seems to be a lack of helpful activity, which is a weak but not suspicious reason.
I'm also concerned about buddying. He mentioned twice that he has played with me before. The first time included a compliment. But IIRC we only played once before; he was town and I was scum; and it was a scum win. If he were really trying to sort me, you'd think he would also say something like
pers was scum in that game and this game seems different/the same
.
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Post Post #810 (isolation #93) » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:44 am

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Personally I don't feel like going back through 33 pages until we have a flip.
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Post Post #819 (isolation #94) » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:29 am

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A person calling himself paranoid always immediately strikes me as LAMIST.
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Post Post #866 (isolation #95) » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:13 pm

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Fuck that. Would a couple more people please vote Johnny?
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Post Post #984 (isolation #96) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:13 am

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In post 953, karnos wrote:I investigated persivul. No result. Either I got roleblocked, or persivul got jailed.
I like this from karnos.
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Post Post #985 (isolation #97) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:16 am

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In post 956, MathBlade wrote:You sure you aren't just full of shit? Did some reading overnight to try to find Neopolitan games and I found viewtopic.php?p=7751207#p7751207
What exactly did you learn about this game from a game which had a scum neapolitan who was lynched D1?
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Post Post #989 (isolation #98) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:47 am

Post by Persivul »

My thoughts on karnos claim and results:

1. I doubt it's a fake claim, because it's so unusual. I think scum making something up would choose something seen more frequently. This is the first I've heard of neapolitan.

2. If he's genuinely neapolitan and scum, I think he would have wanted to give a result in order to get towncred. It's bad for scum to make conftowns, but they can be killed as created, and a no result could be claimed on a later night.

3. I make sense as a target. I started off good and some people are town reading me, but my game went downhill and some are scum reading me. Also, I'm good at defending when pressed. I.e. I'm kind of scummy, but won't be easy to lynch. That's a good target for an investigation.
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Post Post #992 (isolation #99) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:07 am

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In post 990, Masquerade wrote:@Pers. 1 Unless they are afraid a more common role is already in the game. They would be cc'ed. So in a closed setup a less common role is safer to claim.
Scum concerned with safety can choose a protective role or even a backup role. A role that creates conftowns wouldn't be high on their list to fake.
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Post Post #995 (isolation #100) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:33 am

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In post 994, karnos wrote: I'm even more confident about this now, since Wingback was the only other player I had a strong scum suspicion on. Anyone else find it a little hypocritical he is linking to other games to show meta and then at the end of his post he is saying we shouldn't use meta to find scum?
I find his bringing up "site meta" to be bizarre. Maybe this site has some different conventions from other sites, but it's not like people intentionally play by the MS playbook.
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Post Post #997 (isolation #101) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:38 am

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Yeah, in his points 1 & 3 are against karnos, but 2 is for him. I saw it more as questioning me than attacking karnos.
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Post Post #999 (isolation #102) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:02 am

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Just read WB's ISO. His major scum reads were math and dier.

On karnos, he went from suspecting him, to strongly town reading him, to suspecting him again late in phase.

VOTE: mathblade
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Post Post #1010 (isolation #103) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:29 am

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In post 1007, Dierfire wrote:It's clear to me that I need to think seriously about rescinding one of my Town reads; I'm not so confident in my abilities as to think that all of the Mafia players are outside that group (that would be a team of karnos, MathBlade, and Kappy), although I'd be disappointed in myself if there are no Mafia players there.

As MechaGoomba and MagnaofIllusion are the stronger reads (and as they write a lot), they are low priority for reconsideration.
Persivul, Firebringer, and Saru are the most dated reads; they would be good places to start.
Masquerade and qubixes will be in the intermediate tier.
Oh wow that's a bad post.
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Post Post #1029 (isolation #104) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:23 pm

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In post 1014, MathBlade wrote:This is a prime example of why "because we always do it is bad". Scum adjust and learn to those tactics. For example I am willing to bet we are going to start seeing a major shift of doomed as fuck scum on the site claim some kind of investigative and role blocked because of "site meta". Where I came from on DLP you had the person claim to see if the claim matched the specific style of scumminess they were called out for. If it didn't you lynched them. If they were town and didn't live up to what town wanted too bad. And the scary thing is most of the time on DLP they were right.
So you're saying that at DLP there was a site meta, but scum did NOT adjust to that meta (i.e. they could have learned which claims matched which styles of scumminess and made those claims). Yet, here, you assume - against your prior experience - that scum DO adjust to site meta.
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Post Post #1030 (isolation #105) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:31 pm

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In post 1019, MathBlade wrote:As I explained earlier if Karnos is town (which I doubt) scum have 0 reason to block him.
As a claimed PR karnos could be doc protected, so scum are wary of targeting him for NK.

If left to investigate, he can create potential conftowns.

So, yes, scum have reason to block him. It's standard scum play - block an investigative until you hit a protective with the NK. Site meta if you will.

BTW, what did your old site think of someone who tunneled another player for two days?
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Post Post #1032 (isolation #106) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:38 pm

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In post 1022, MathBlade wrote:Writing a lot is not an indication of town else everyone would plainly see I am the towniest town to ever fucking town.
I checked your meta yesterday. I found one game in which you were scum and had a relatively low post count. But, I found another in which you were scum and had a high post count. Point being that you're correct, people shouldn't town read you for your high post count.
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Post Post #1034 (isolation #107) » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:40 pm

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In post 1016, MathBlade wrote:NK analysis is a very useful tool for finding scum and to brush it off like that is ridiculous and scummy.
So if Karnos is scum, why are you still alive?
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Post Post #1060 (isolation #108) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:35 am

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In post 1047, MathBlade wrote:
In post 1029, Persivul wrote:
In post 1014, MathBlade wrote:This is a prime example of why "because we always do it is bad". Scum adjust and learn to those tactics. For example I am willing to bet we are going to start seeing a major shift of doomed as fuck scum on the site claim some kind of investigative and role blocked because of "site meta".
Where I came from on DLP you had the person claim to see if the claim matched the specific style of scumminess they were called out for. If it didn't you lynched them.
If they were town and didn't live up to what town wanted too bad. And the scary thing is most of the time on DLP they were right.
So you're saying that at DLP there was a site meta, but scum did NOT adjust to that meta (i.e. they could have learned which claims matched which styles of scumminess and made those claims). Yet, here, you assume - against your prior experience - that scum DO adjust to site meta.
On the contrary. What I am saying is that at DLP analysis was more important than information. Scum did and would change meta constantly. Just there wasn't a "guideline" as to what was townie. You either were or weren't. I am saying on DLP you were forced to be townie regardless of your role claim.
No, that's not what you said.

If it's as you now say - "on DLP you were forced to be townie regardless of your role claim" - then what was the purpose of claiming?
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Post Post #1061 (isolation #109) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:40 am

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In post 1049, MathBlade wrote: Omg standard scum play *cries* Just stawp.
What's your objection? It's standard because it makes perfect logical sense. Are you telling me that if you were scum and had a RB, you wouldn't block a claimed investigative? Why not?
Depended on the situation about the tunnel. On DLP because I was breaking into a new site you have to tunnel to get any sort of credibility in the game or when you flip.
So site meta there is that tunneling is townie. Why then couldn't scum just tunnel? And when they adjusted, why was that still the site meta?
Here, even if I don't get traction I can hopefully at least explain why *standard scum play* is so damn stupid.
So far you've failed at that.
The question should be why would a team of your scum reads roleblock, if one exists?
Not sure what you mean by "a team of your scum reads," but scum would block a neapolitan because they don't want it creating conftowns.
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Post Post #1062 (isolation #110) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:41 am

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In post 1050, MathBlade wrote:
In post 1034, Persivul wrote:
In post 1016, MathBlade wrote:NK analysis is a very useful tool for finding scum and to brush it off like that is ridiculous and scummy.
So if Karnos is scum, why are you still alive?
Because of site meta no one will listen to me so I am handicapped and have to X - 1 scum where X is the number of scum in the game.
If you know that no one will listen to you re: karnos, why are you tunneling him?
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Post Post #1068 (isolation #111) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:46 am

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In post 1058, MathBlade wrote:You contradict yourself here in your posts. One of your arguments is that Karnos is not a master planner. Yet here if he talked with his scum buddies that would make him able to talk with them and find out what is most probable. Your own argument defeats itself. It is literally nauseating to try to figure it out.
I think his point is that town!karnos wouldn't have scum buddies to talk to...
And with that I believe I am fucking done because everything else to me is site meta.
Why don't you just STFU about site meta? Do you really think that you're going to come on here and change all the accepted ways of doing things? Doesn't it make more sense for you to adapt your game to the site meta and quit fucking whining about it?
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Post Post #1071 (isolation #112) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:50 am

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In post 1069, MathBlade wrote:The purpose of claiming was a last fail safe. A last ditch effort to see if the scumminess seen matches the role claimed.For example if it was a lurker lynch or someone just dropping a vote on a person they would have to claim a cop or a tracker or something with an investigative role.
Why didn't lurker scum adapt and start claiming an investigative role to avoid lynch?
However if you were loud and tunnely and scum read and you didn't claim VT or BP then you got lynched.
Why didn't loud tunnely scum adapt and start claiming VT or BP to avoid lynch?
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Post Post #1078 (isolation #113) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:08 am

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In post 1074, MathBlade wrote:Maybe a reread is in order because maybe I am a stubborn asshole.
FTR I'm not just buying karnos's claim at face value. If we don't see some results and/or decent scum hunting, I don't want him making it to lylo. BUT, IMO he doesn't need to be lynched today, some other people feel the same way, and so your tunneling him while lecturing us about our mafia deficiencies is not advancing the game. It's a distraction that scum are enjoying, probably even if karnos IS scum. Do you really think you're going to win people to your cause by telling them they're stupid? Personally I'm thinking that if DLP is so fucking great, why are you playing here?
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Post Post #1081 (isolation #114) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:16 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 1079, MathBlade wrote:See. That. That is what I wanted. Actual goddamn thought instead of just "Karnos is town" blanket statements.

I have to go to work but I am rereading the thread afterwards.

Do I think we are going to win if I do? Maybe. Hell it already got people to admit they are going to analyze Karnos instead of just going "Karnos is town because role blocked claim". So yeah sometimes calling people stupid and where they rely on site meta instead of analysis forces people to analyze everything. Just like how you are pointing things out to me in a logical manner and I adjust to mine. That is how Mafia works and we all come together and lynch scum.
You didn't force anything, jackass. I've been thinking that all along. Sometimes it's better to just think something and observe for awhile rather than put the person on alert.
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Post Post #1083 (isolation #115) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:01 am

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In post 1082, MechaGoomba wrote:Persivul, do you really believe that it's that important to shoot MathBlade's reasoning down?
No...I just don't like the guy.
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Post Post #1132 (isolation #116) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:33 pm

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In post 1098, Firebringer wrote:I am totally willing to vote magna for just voting one of my strongest town reads (math)
There are three of us on math. Are we all scum?
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Post Post #1133 (isolation #117) » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:46 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 1123, Titus wrote:
In post 69, Persivul wrote:
In post 68, Chumba wrote:
In post 66, Chumba wrote:I actually read that as he was ok with a wagon happening.
What, are you saying that he didn't really think a wagon was happening, but just had the thought that,
hey, if a wagon
were
happening, I'd be OK with that...
?
If this semantics are the level of discourse, I see why mass sub out
Come in, look down your nose, and blame me for the replacements. Got it. If the Great and Powerful Titus thinks I'm a problem, I must be.

mod, please replace me.
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