Mini 1800 - Game Over

[qubixes]

No, I don't think you consider OMGUS a legitimate scum tell. The way you brought it up looked like you were

acting

that it was. Why call it "blatant" when there is nothing scummy about it? Blatant town?! Blatant null?! Here is the quote again for reference:

How am I as a reader supposed to think that you bring up something that is completely null/irrelevant?

Because it still has a meaning. I'm just saying his vote on me might not be motivated purely because he thinks I am scum, but rather as a reaction to me voting him.

So, you're saying that either:

- He is scum, and he is retaliating towards you.
- He is town, and emotional and wrong about you.

You think his OMGUS kinda makes you more town somehow? So basically you're trying to discredit his vote on you by saying it is OMGUS. Did I get that right?

I think by calling it "blatant" and "doesn't make him scum but

certainly

not town" is just an attempt to make him look more shady. If you don't want to do that, don't add these terms.

[MechaGoomba]

45 53 65 71 - not shiny examples of awesome town posting, but they were legitimate serious posts, as opposed to the random silly posting style kappy was using prior.

In order: "this is RVS", "to be funny", some sort of nonsensical WIFOM argument, and a no-explanation one-liner.
You are under the impression that Kappy was posting these things

in order to remove the wagon on him

.
He posted 2 consecutive readslists after the wagon had already evaporated. Why would these useless one-liners be better tools at

removing a developing wagon

than readslists, which multiple people have mentioned scum often use to deflect suspicion?

Care to guess how many game relevant posts you have made up to that point? A big fat ZERO.

This is the worst ad hominem argument I have ever seen anyone make.
Are you somehow under the impression I'm attacking Kappy for having silly posts? Your claim is "[Kappy] was only acting town long enough to break away from a wagon."
I am refuting this claim by showing that he acted more town after the wagon was gone than while it was there.
How the FUCK is my early-game activity level relevant to this?

I didn't switch to you earlier for obvious reasons I'd be happy to reveal later.

If you can reveal it later, you ought to be able to reveal it now. Waiting to reveal something you already know means either you're reaction testing or you're scum and you need time to make up an excuse. I doubt you're reaction testing.


karnos: Consider the following: You think I am scum and want me to be lynched. Most other players think I am town. You are not in serious danger of being lynched soon, since there are only 3 votes on you.
You have said that you are voting me for reasons other than the "scumslip", and don't consider OMGUS a scumtell. You have other reasons for voting me. Yet

every post you have made

attacking me is about either the perceived scumslip or my "OMGUS".
Why not discuss those "other reasons"? Why are you so focused on the things other people are criticizing, rather than the things you find most compelling?

Even when you try to push me as scum, you're defensive of your reasoning rather than actually aggressive towards me. Not town behavior.

[karnos]

>Why would these useless one-liners be better tools at removing a developing wagon than readslists

I don't know, maybe you should ask the people who changed votes. I was reading based on *what* happened, I don't know exactly why it happened. Although, it might have been related to facts already stated: we are talking page 3, the game was still in RVS mode for a lot of people, and there wasn't a lot of legitimate content to read from.

>Yet every post you have made attacking me is about either the perceived scumslip or my "OMGUS".

If you don't consider my read of you in 359 to be an attack, is that tacit admittance that everything I read into your ISO is true? Notice how my reads on you were longer than anyone else? Notice how I didn't really have much good to say about your ISO? Are you still confused what other reasons I had for voting you?

[karnos]

I think by calling it "blatant" and "doesn't make him scum but

certainly

not town" is just an attempt to make him look more shady. If you don't want to do that, don't add these terms.

He is scum, that is my viewpoint. I don't have to attempt to make him look more shady, his whole ISO is doing that for me.

[MechaGoomba]

If you don't consider my read of you in 359 to be an attack, is that tacit admittance that everything I read into your ISO is true?

That readwall was terrible and your read on me was even more so. Discounting the IIOA (which we shouldn't be; we should be looking carefully at it, thinking "does this have a purpose besides padding wordcount"), all you have to say is "I don't like reaction tests", "not digging through typos is scummy", and "not rewriting a post for someone who didn't read it is scummy."

If that's the best stuff you can come up with for an attack, why are you bothering with me? Your segment of that readwall on me is twice as big as anyone else's and has about half as much content as some.
You had an actual reason for voting Kappy, even if it was wrong: what convinced you to unvote? If you wanted to stand out from the crowd you could've gone after Mizzy.
Why are you even bothering? What's so important about me that you drop everything over these tiny quibbles?

What is your motivation?

I don't have to attempt to make him look more shady, his whole ISO is doing that for me.

My whole ISO is terrible? Then why aren't you putting in the tiny bit of effort required to get one single incriminating quote from it?
The scummier you claim I am, the less of an excuse you have for refusing to put in the effort to support it, and the more it shows that your read is not remotely as strong as you claim it is.

[Saru]

After looking through Karnos' ISO from Newbie 1700(his second game on the site), Qubixes was right when he said that Karnos played very differently throughout that whole game(he was town) compared to this one. His posts seem to come off as aggressive from the very start, defending himself from any accusations without much backpedaling and just being confident about how he feels in a certain situation. Compare this to the way he posted in the beginning of the game(for this purpose, beginning for Karnos is defined as

before

his recent reads list) where he, as Qubixes pointed out, posted very carefully and it seemed like he was watching his every word. However, now, in this recent back and forth between him and those voting/suspecting him, he seems to be posting like he did in Newbie 1700. Very aggressive and not backing off from his arguments. He seems to be arguing with Mecha(with pretty bad arguments if we're being honest) kind of out of the blue. It feels like he's voting Mecha because Mecha was the first one on his scum list to speak up against him. I'd imagine if Kappy spoke up first(not like that would ever happen ), he'd end up voting on Kappy and arguing with him instead.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of all this. I'm not gonna unvote Kappy just to vote for Karnos at the moment, mainly because I want more opinions(from replacements and soon to be replacements) on the whole Karnos thing as well as their general viewpoint on the thread so far. However, this could change.

Overall, Karnos' wishy washy style of play compared to his last game does make me suspicious of him. So, for now,

FoS: Karnos

.

[qubixes]

@Saru: I don't find the change in playstyle very impressive,

after

I called him out for it. It's basically a confirmation that I was right about it. (Don't believe it is coincidence.)

[karnos]

It's a learned behavior, followed by realization that it's all a lot of BS anyway. I'm sure if you look at all my prior games in order, you would notice some evolution in my play-style. You should also notice something in common among all my town games- I am initially scum read in almost every game, before eventually coming through without getting lynched. I have not been lynched in any game thus far, yet every game seems to start with a wagon on me.

My first newbie game. I had 3 votes to my name very early, due to my play-style and eagerness to lynch.

My second newbie game. Again I had a wagon of 3 votes to my name by VC 1.2

My 3rd game, and only scum game As scum I was never really even close to getting lynched, at most I had 2 votes to my name on any of the vote checks I can see.

My 4th game, mod abandoned Only see myself up to 2 votes on vote checks, I thought I was actually voted higher between checks. /shrug Even if I wasn't voted highly, my perception was that I was in danger of being lynched this game because of constant attacks.

My play has evolved from this. My early games I attracted a lot of negative attention early on, and so I tried to play more carefully at the start of this game. Obviously its not working out too well.

Overall, Karnos' wishy washy style of play compared to his last game does make me suspicious of him.

My last full game was my scum game- you are reading me as scum because I'm not playing the way I play as scum?

Or are you talking about Open 640 - Mod Abandoned? That was an interesting game, the majority of it was extremely polarized between GreyICE and me, until things just broke on day two because of mod miscommunication.

[qubixes]

If you don't consider my read of you in 359 to be an attack, is that tacit admittance that everything I read into your ISO is true? Notice how my reads on you were longer than anyone else? Notice how I didn't really have much good to say about your ISO? Are you still confused what other reasons I had for voting you?

I don't consider it much of an attack either.

- You are voting someone else.
- It is part of a big read list.
- You're putting him at null/scum.

Also, you're just picking a bunch of twisted/bad (imo) interpretations of Mecha's posts and calling it bad. It doesn't feel like you were really putting in some effort to actually try to accomplish anything with the read at that point.

I hope that the replacements will bring some more life to the thread. Right now, it feels like a micro on Day 2.

[karnos]

312 MechaGoomba quotes a massive wall of quotes, just to reply

"I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos."

324 MechaGoomba

"OK you see that post at the top of the page? Go read it. If you've already read it, reread it. Then make a coherent response to it."

331 MechaGoomba "Communication is a two way street. Both the speaker and the listener bear blame when miscommunication happens. To blame the listener ("you're not reading") when you're the speaker and blame the speaker ("creating confusion") when you're the listener is untenable."

Does this series of posts not bother anyone else? Mecha refuses to put the tiniest effort to respond to qubixes in 312 because of some typos. Mecha refuses to respond to ShadyHood, instead lazily asks him to reread the post at the top of the page. And then Mecha has the audacity to complain about miscommunication to Saru. Yes, he covers his ass by saying "miscommunication is not alignment indicative", but that just begs the question why even bother bringing it all up? Talking about game mechanics, which some see as an easy scum strategy to avoid sharing real reads, this is a step worse than that in my book.

[Persivul]

312 MechaGoomba quotes a massive wall of quotes, just to reply "I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos."

You're reading just to find arguments, not to actually understand and solve the game. He said in 313 to ignore the quotes, meaning he was referring to sick's preceding posts.

[karnos]

Also, you're just picking a bunch of twisted/bad (imo) interpretations of Mecha's posts and calling it bad. It doesn't feel like you were really putting in some effort to actually try to accomplish anything with the read at that point.

It's what I have to work with. Mecha, maybe you could post some more reads, targeting someone other than me? His ISO is completely bare of real townish posts, and all I see are these mild scum indications. They don't mean much individually, but his reactions and lack of counter evidence is enough for me, for the time being.

Would you prefer some meta analysis, where I take some out of context quote from one of Mecha's other games to try to prove he is scum in this one? Rhetorical question, I don't have the patience nor desire to read through everyone's prior games, even if some of my enemies are that desperate.

[karnos]

312 MechaGoomba quotes a massive wall of quotes, just to reply "I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos."

You're reading just to find arguments, not to actually understand and solve the game. He said in 313 to ignore the quotes, meaning he was referring to sick's preceding posts.

Sure, okay I get what he is saying now. Nobody pointed this out to me when I originally posted my reads, and EBWOP is an abbreviation I wasn't aware of. I've looked it up now, sure that makes some sense.

But I don't see how that makes his post a good town post. It's still just dumb filler, followed by a clarifying dumb filler post.

[Saru]

It's a learned behavior, followed by realization that it's all a lot of BS anyway. I'm sure if you look at all my prior games in order, you would notice some evolution in my play-style. You should also notice something in common among all my town games- I am initially scum read in almost every game, before eventually coming through without getting lynched. I have not been lynched in any game thus far, yet every game seems to start with a wagon on me.

....

My play has evolved from this. My early games I attracted a lot of negative attention early on, and so I tried to play more carefully at the start of this game. Obviously its not working out too well.

Overall, Karnos' wishy washy style of play compared to his last game does make me suspicious of him.

My last full game was my scum game- you are reading me as scum because I'm not playing the way I play as scum?

Or are you talking about Open 640 - Mod Abandoned? That was an interesting game, the majority of it was extremely polarized between GreyICE and me, until things just broke on day two because of mod miscommunication.

Sorry, didn't mean to say last game. I was talking about the one I looked at, which was your second newbie game, Newbie 1700.

Anyways, taking a quick gander at your newbie games where you're town, you seem so confident. Macho and all. You even say yourself that in your first one, you were eager to lynch.

However, I noticed something big from your only scum game. I want everyone to go look at post 43 from Open 638, the game where Karnos is mafia. That post there rings eerily similar to the one Karnos made in this game about not wanting to lynch someone. Different reasons, with the Open one being cause you were scared to "push a lynch onto a nice townie" and this one being because "I don't wanna be implicated." Reasons are different, but not by much. On top of that, both were backpedals on their respective lynches. Think about it. If as town, your so eager to lynch, then in this game you can clearly see why people think your scum. Your unvoting ability is pretty low when your town from what I've seen. However, when your scum, you tend to unvote and just generally backpedal a lot more.

Another big thing I saw in Open 638 is post 44 where you vote someone because they were hiding or in others words, lurking. Sounds similar to what you did when you voted for Dierfire in RVS, but then tried to justify it with the excuse that he was lurking.

I'm calling total BS on "my play has evolved." Like Mecha said, don't self-meta. Your play in your town games have all stayed the same. 3 town games and only now it's different? What's the chances? Your play in your only mafia game lines up with your play in this game fairly well, so far. I don't see much evolution happening here to be honest. And as Qubixes pointed out, it doesn't seem like a coincidence that you changed your tone in this game as soon as he pointed out how your tone early on in the game was very different from your town meta. It seems like you're trying to cover up.

I'm not usually one to go off of meta analysis this much, or really at all, but I have a feeling with Karnos, it's pretty damn revealing. And, Karnos, if you feel I took a quote totally out of context in this post, feel free to point that out and provide some context. I will admit that I didn't really look at the games as a whole, mostly the ISOs.

[MechaGoomba]

His ISO is completely bare of real townish posts

, and

all I see are these mild scum indications

.

They don't mean much individually

, but

his reactions

and

lack of counter evidence

is enough for me.

"

He isn't towny

,

he's scummy

,

no I can't quote posts to prove it

,

he's reacting in a scummy way

, and

he hasn't disproven anything I've said

."
That's not an argument, that's just you stating your opinion. I mean, if you had said "I have a gut read of you as scum but it's not strong", I would've been fine. But you're pretending like your read is much bigger and much stronger than it actually is. You throw a read out there, don't try to push it, and then when you're called on it overstate everything massively, it makes me wonder how you came up with it in the first place.

Would you prefer some meta analysis, where I take some out of context quote from one of Mecha's other games to try to prove he is scum in this one?

You know that thing where scum complain about how you caught them for the wrong reasons? This reads like that to me.
Most town players, they're going to be more frustrated that they're being scumread than that the people scumreading them are using meta tells.

It's still just dumb filler, followed by a clarifying dumb filler post.

Admit when you're proven wrong, will you? If dumb filler was lynch-worthy, you'd have no excuse to not be voting Kappy.

[MechaGoomba]

Saru, while for the most part I agree with your meta analysis, the "worried about lurkers" thing came up before, and Karnos responded in post 198. Not sure if you've seen it or not, but better safe than sorry.

[Saru]

Saru, while for the most part I agree with your meta analysis, the "worried about lurkers" thing came up before, and Karnos responded in post 198. Not sure if you've seen it or not, but better safe than sorry.

Yeah I saw it before but it slipped my mind.

[Kappy]

All these huge posts, it's hard to follow. Trying to catch up.

[Kappy]

Now I feel stupid. UNVOTE:

Why? Do you think his other reasons are good?

I didn't see these other reasons, I was voting on the basis that there were no other reasons.

[GreyICE]

JohnnyFarrar replaces ShadyHood. Please give him a warm welcome and my thanks for replacing in!

Still searching for a replacement for Sickofit.

[GreyICE]

Official Vote Count

Sickofit1138

(3): Snork, species, The Bulge

karnos

(3): Mizzytastic, qubixes, MechaGoomba

Persivul

(2): Sickofit1138, JohnnyFarrar

Kappy

(2): Dierfire, Saru

The Bulge

(1): Persivul

MechaGoomba

(1): karnos

Not Voting

(1): Kappy

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 16:00:51)

[Kappy]

Welcome, Johnny!

[GreyICE]

Wingback replaces Sickofit. Another round of thanks! Happy to have you with us Wingback.

All slots are now full.

[GreyICE]

b

[GreyICE]

b