Mini 1800 - Game Over

[karnos]

I'm not going to keep banging my head into the wall to make a point, if you want to lynch me go ahead. As long as the scum who started this wagon on me get lynch in the following days, I'll consider it a fair trade.

[qubixes]

VOTE: karnos

What made you vote karnos now?

[Kappy]

My responses are in green.

312 MechaGoomba quotes a massive wall of quotes, just to reply "I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos."

He used an EBWODP to explain he had not meant to quote. I think that is fine, since the phpBB quote feature can be unreliable.

324 MechaGoomba "OK you see that post at the top of the page? Go read it. If you've already read it, reread it. Then make a coherent response to it.

Whats wrong with this? Mecha was just telling them to read his post again.

[Persivul]

VOTE: karnos

What made you vote karnos now?

Johnny coming in with fresh eyes and pushing him.

[Kappy]

Oh, I forgot.
VOTE: karnosVOTE:

[Kappy]

Oops.
VOTE: karnos

[karnos]

My responses are in green.

312 MechaGoomba quotes a massive wall of quotes, just to reply "I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos."

He used an EBWODP to explain he had not meant to quote. I think that is fine, since the phpBB quote feature can be unreliable.

324 MechaGoomba "OK you see that post at the top of the page? Go read it. If you've already read it, reread it. Then make a coherent response to it.

Whats wrong with this? Mecha was just telling them to read his post again.

Individually, neither is bad. But then you have this

"Communication is a two way street. Both the speaker and the listener bear blame when miscommunication happens. To blame the listener ("you're not reading") when you're the speaker and blame the speaker ("creating confusion") when you're the listener is untenable."

.

Basically, I see Mecha REFUSING to communicate because of typos or poor writing, and then refusing to repeat an argument, because.. why? he is lazy? Whatever, it's okay.

But then he goes on to make some big point about how communication is critical and trying to throw blame around is unacceptable... WHAT? He is just being a huge hypocrite, I don't see any other way to read it..

[karnos]

Individually, neither is bad.

Let me rephrase. They are still bad, because they are fake filler posts. But not *that* bad... until you get to his later post where he reveals just how hypocritical he can be.

[MechaGoomba]

@Mech would you say you're very tunnely as town?

My current town playstyle has two states I flipflop between: tunneling someone really really hard and going back through recent posts to rework all my reads. I wish I could do both at once more often.

I'm not going to keep banging my head into the wall to make a point, if you want to lynch me go ahead. As long as the scum who started this wagon on me get lynch in the following days, I'll consider it a fair trade.

This is seriously worrying me because on the one hand, it looks like genuine town frustration, but on the other hand, Karnos has shown no such frustration previously, and having this whole frustrated self-sacrificing attitude pop up just as he's about to be lynched is a bit too convienient. It does feel fake, but I'm worried I'm confbiasing.

to make some big point about communication is critical and

trying to throw blame around is unacceptable

Yes, exactly! And then immediately after I said miscommunication isn't scummy. Which, taken together, means people shouldn't be throwing accusations of scumminess around based on who holds the blame for miscommunication. Which is what a lot of people voting Persivul were doing.


NOTE: Karnos is currently at

L-2

.

[Kappy]

NOTE: Karnos is currently at L-2.

You're welcome.

[JohnnyFarrar]

GUYS WHY THE FUCK IS KARNOS STILL ALIVE

Did you vote him?

I'm still not caught up waddayou take me for?

[Kappy]

My responses are in green.

312 MechaGoomba quotes a massive wall of quotes, just to reply "I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos."

He used an EBWODP to explain he had not meant to quote. I think that is fine, since the phpBB quote feature can be unreliable.

324 MechaGoomba "OK you see that post at the top of the page? Go read it. If you've already read it, reread it. Then make a coherent response to it.

Whats wrong with this? Mecha was just telling them to read his post again.

Individually, neither is bad. But then you have this

"Communication is a two way street. Both the speaker and the listener bear blame when miscommunication happens. To blame the listener ("you're not reading") when you're the speaker and blame the speaker ("creating confusion") when you're the listener is untenable."

.

Basically, I see Mecha REFUSING to communicate because of typos or poor writing, and then refusing to repeat an argument, because.. why? he is lazy? Whatever, it's okay.

But then he goes on to make some big point about how communication is critical and trying to throw blame around is unacceptable... WHAT? He is just being a huge hypocrite, I don't see any other way to read it..

So the last post is bad. Okay. I agree. But the doesn't make the other two bad.

[Wingback]

I'm caught up. Mizzytastic can go in my townpile as well.

Karnos is the only active player that I'm scumreading. Particularly hated the jump onto the Persivul wagon as it was picking up, the abundance of null/scum reads in his massive readslist which is a load of fluff that doesn't say anything, and the way he buckles down from pressuring Dierfire after Mizzytastic reams him over it. This could be playstyle though so I'll re-ISO him in context of his other games. I think he's already at L-2 so I won't add my vote right now.

I don't like Snork's sole content post (Post 96). He townreads Chumba for weak theory reasons and is way too sure of the read. He swipes at MechaGoomba for "busywork" questions when I thought Goomba's questions to Chumba were pretty legitimate. It reads as if Snork decided he was going to buddy Chumba and started fielding away attacks on Chumba.

JohnnyFarrar (Shadyhood's replacement) is another possible candidate for scum regardless of what Karnos flips. He sounds way too certain about his scumflip repeatedly asking why Karnos isn't already dead and agreeing with pretty much every case on Karnos. The day is not even halfway done. It's been six days since the game started and we still have eight days left. A bunch of people either need to catch up or be replaced and there's plenty more discussion to have. I think it's obvious why we haven't lynched yet. I think it's partly just rhetoric but I find it very overblown and the confidence doesn't match up to what I'd expect from someone who just replaced into the game and is catching up. It sounds like he's pre-decided he's pushing Karnos.

Kappy is a player I'm very conflicted on. I think he was acting very loose and unself-conscious at the beginning (someone mentioned this already but I can't recall who) and I think that his free-flowing posts and constant vote changes were town. I dislike his evaluation of Sickofit vs Persivul though and there's a lot of stuff he completely misinterpreted (Saru pointed most of this out).

@Wingback Why do you read Dierfire as town?

Mostly based on his entrance (Post 228 and Post 229). A lot of what he said in those two walls was stuff that I was thinking too. A couple of examples:

• His townread on Persivul matched mine and came at a point where Persivul was picking up a wagon. I was leaning town on Pesivul for the same reasons (because of how he was updating his read on Sickofit) and it's a point I would have brought up had Dierfire not beat me to it.
  
• His difficulty in reading sickofit. I had some conflicting opinions on my predecessor too when I was spectating so this hits home with me. In fact, the reasons I started leaning town on him were the same posts that Dierfire had linked and for the same reasons as well.

@ Karnos - a few questions:

persivul

- I had a strong town vibe for him yesterday, but now I am really starting to wonder, especially given the town vibe I had for him in 640 in which I just discovered he was actually scum. (nullscum)
VOTE: persivul

Are there any specific reasons you were townreading Persivul for? I didn't read the entirety of Open 640 but from an ISO of you and Ctrl+F Persivul, it seemed like he was scum with GreyICE and when GreyICE attacked you, he defended you leading you to townread him. Nothing in this game is comparable to that so where is your read coming from?

[qubixes]

@Wingback I kind of see where you are coming from on your Dierfire read. What I don't really like about his ISO is his attitude towards kappy. It feels to me a bit like he doesn't really believe in it but still likes it to see happen. I guess that counts more or less as a gut read for me. Also his last few days have been rather disappointing in content, but obviously that could have external reasons. Either way I don't feel particularly strong about Dierfire at the moment. I do see him as a good candidate for being a partner of Karnos, but we'll have to see the flip first I guess.

Also, GreyICE is the mod, so...

[Kappy]

scum with GreyICE and when GreyICE attacked you

Yes, GreyICE actually is scum. He's not part of the Mafia, though. Because he's the mod, he's part of the Modafia!

[Wingback]

I was talking about Open 640 where GreyICE was scum.

@qubixes, I actually thought Dierfire's evaluation of Kappy made sense. Kappy's behavior was weird and the multiple vote switches were hard to make sense of (unless you assume that Kappy was just "having fun" and absolve him of responsibility during that RVS phase).

[Dierfire]

I'm back and reading now.

[Dierfire]

Persivul in 435 and qubixes in 459 accurately capture where I was going in 393: karnos pushes back against MechaGoomba in a way that feels insincere (more like trying to "return fire" than actually trying to read MechaGoomba). I need a VC and time to finally look at those previously mentioned games of karnos, but this is likely to be my vote shortly.

[Dierfire]

@Kappy

You may have missed this.

@Kappy

Saru: It seems like he is voting for me because he doesn't like the content of my posts. I don't really know what to say to this.
Mecha: He just doesn't like 235, since he claims it is all recycled. That may be true, but I was placing my opinion on it, since I hadn't mentioned my opinion before.
Dierfire: He just commented on the weird association between me and Sick. I just want to point out that I scumread Sick, but I have to UNVOTE: for now to give his replacement a chance.
Is that what you want?

I'd like to have you comment on how you're reading the three of us. I gather that you think that all of our reasons for voting you are bad; do you feel that any are false?

[Dierfire]

Overall I liked Wingback's entrance, although I may have issues with the read on Mizzytastic.

@Wingback

Why are you reading Mizzytastic as Town? Overall I like that Mizzytastic is focusing some attention on players that I also find suspicious (karnos, Kappy), but I'm not sure that there's anything else here that would make me read Mizzytastic as Town.

Spoiler: For Comparison (My Read on Mizzytastic)

This is a short ISO, so I'll go by posts.
The first few posts (8, 13, 20) seem like RVS--nothing important for me to say here.
The question to Sickofit1138 in 24 should probably be followed, especially given the way that the point was being discussed (such as by Persivul in 27). In this light, 44 and 51 (discussion of RVS), while not particularly suspicious, feel like a diversion from a more productive use of time.
The vote on karnos in 60 is good in that the read on Kappy improves by default (karnos suspiciously trying to avoid blame for lynching Kappy should make Kappy more likely to be Town).
The points against karnos in 123, 143, and 156 are retrospectively good because I'm suspicious of karnos (and because 177 makes them less likely to be partners), but they're not particularly difficult for a Mafia player to generate.
The question to Sickofit1138 in 128 and 129 again is easy to generate (pointing out that Sickofit1138 has made a post that is not attempting to read other players).
The line against ShadyHood in 146 and 154 (and 155) again feels superficial (looking for phrasing that reveals hidden knowledge rather than looking for motivations behind posts).
The question for clarity in 79 probably indicates nothing about alignment. I've similarly little to say about 231 and 401.

[GreyICE]

Official Vote Count

karnos

(5): Mizzytastic, qubixes, MechaGoomba, Persivul, Kappy

Wingback

(3): Snork, species, The Bulge

Persivul

(2): Wingback, JohnnyFarrar

Kappy

(2): Dierfire, Saru

MechaGoomba

(1): karnos

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 15:59:27)

[JohnnyFarrar]

UNVOTE:

Silly

[The Bulge]

Sorry busy couple days. I'll post some content in the morning

Johnny!

[JohnnyFarrar]

ey bulgey

[karnos]

@ Karnos - a few questions:

persivul

- I had a strong town vibe for him yesterday, but now I am really starting to wonder, especially given the town vibe I had for him in 640 in which I just discovered he was actually scum. (nullscum)
VOTE: persivul

Are there any specific reasons you were townreading Persivul for? I didn't read the entirety of Open 640 but from an ISO of you and Ctrl+F Persivul, it seemed like he was scum with GreyICE and when GreyICE attacked you, he defended you leading you to townread him. Nothing in this game is comparable to that so where is your read coming from?

Okay, confession time. I never stopped town-reading Persivul. It's not something where I can point at one or two posts and say "there, that is why he is town!", just his general play overall seems like the play a town player should use. He pushed, voted, applied pressure, but when he got a response he thought indicated town he would relent and move to another target. I feel that a scum player would be more likely to ignore the response or act like it's not good enough and keep pushing for a lynch. I lied in the post quoted above.

The reveal that Persivul was scum in open 640 made me realize something. There are some players who are good enough that I won't be able to read them as scum, at least not without some pressure to make them adjust their posting style. At the time, there was a small wagon forming on Persivul, so I made the rash decision to vote him myself, with the above flimsy argument, in the hopes that persivul under pressure might post something I could read as scum.

This is actually what I was referring to in 410 - I didn't want to immediately state that my vote on persivul was entirely fake, because I was still hoping that he might feel slightly pressured and say something he wouldn't say otherwise.

Above said, I am obviously give up on that play. If Persivul is scum this game, I don't think I will ever know.