Mini 1800 - Game Over

[karnos]

Okay, lets be clear. I want to lynch mathblade, I think he is the most obvious scum.

However, I will vote Johnny if the need arises. This is a team game. While I like to think I have it all figured out, truthfully it's all a lot of guesswork and hunches. If the majority, including my main town reads, decide to lynch someone, I'll move my vote to help it happen. I'm not going to be stubborn and cause a no-lynch.

Well then – why again is it something you intimate to be scummy behavior for me to have a reason not to pursue your lynch today (your claim) but still scum reading you and potentially looking to lynch you in future days but when you take a similar stance it is reasonable Town play. Seems to me to be a case of Cognitive Dissonance …

The two shouldn't be equated. My thought was that if you were scum trying to get me lynched, maybe scum have a roleblocker, or some other role to mess with my ability to investigate. I get a nagging feeling that the talk about lynching me tomorrow comes from knowing that I won't have investigation results because you already know I will be blocked somehow. Or, maybe it's because you know I will be nightkilled and it's a misdirect. It just feels off to me. I don't have a strong scum read otherwise, but it is what it is.

I was not trying to imply that simply having a FOS on me while voting someone else is a terrible thing. I just get this feeling while reading that maybe there is some detail to be read between the lines.

As far as my willingness to switch my vote, that isn't something that could be manipulated by some power-role or nightkill. If the mathblade lynch doesn't happen, my vote isn't going to help anything by sitting on him. I can either move it to a viable lynch, or I can be part of the problem and potentially leave us with a no-lynch. It's essentially out of my control.

[Masquerade]

First of all, I had no time to check at the time but I distinctly remember someone saying something about Johnny's meta. I thought it was magna (I still do actually..) but he says it's not so it might take me a bit to find.

Please do. I looked in a hurry as I am getting ready for work at Magna's ISO by searching for the word "meta" in their ISO and none of those posts came up with a post about Johnny's meta.

Also are you going to answer 826? I find it completely hypocritical that you scum read me for "ignoring" posts I addressed and then ignore my numerous requests for your reads and now direct questions to you.

I skimmed over your wall and saw some misreps. You can try to read my iso again properly and then try again.
For one, I did not say I would have claimed sooner if I was scum, I said I expected scum to claim sooner than Karnos did. This is just one example of stuff you have misinterpreted, and I'm stuck on a scumread on you and there is nothing anyone can do this dayphase to change that. I will reevaluate after we've had flips.
Please go and worry about getting a lynch at all today, it's obvious that I'm not able to get a wagon going on you.

Now off to find that thing..

Oh, one more thing, I never took 510 as a crumb, but I suck at those. Why did you wait so long to bring it up?

[Masquerade]

As far as my willingness to switch my vote, that isn't something that could be manipulated by some power-role or nightkill. If the mathblade lynch doesn't happen, my vote isn't going to help anything by sitting on him. I can either move it to a viable lynch, or I can be part of the problem and potentially leave us with a no-lynch. It's essentially out of my control.

Eh how is that out of your control exactly?

[Masquerade]

@Mathblade (and Magna):

You've made more posts than any other player that replaced in near the same time as you, and yet you have far less actual content than anyone else.
I could write it off as playstyle, but my meta analysis makes it look pretty clear: you do usually have this style of many short posts, but usually you're moving towards something constructive with them. I can't see that here.

Sorry guysm I confused your names!

[karnos]

As far as my willingness to switch my vote, that isn't something that could be manipulated by some power-role or nightkill. If the mathblade lynch doesn't happen, my vote isn't going to help anything by sitting on him. I can either move it to a viable lynch, or I can be part of the problem and potentially leave us with a no-lynch. It's essentially out of my control.

Eh how is that out of your control exactly?

Let me try this again:

Situation 1- Scum mess with my ability to investigate, my investigate fails, day 2 I have no results, it's used as fuel to push a lynch on me. The role block used to prevent my investigation is an ability known to exist in the game that scum could have access to.

Situation 2- Nobody else joins the mathblade wagon. I'm voting him, but it's not going to do anything. Even in the fantasy scenario where I am lying scum, it's still out of my control, as there is no power in the game that could potentially force multiple players to vote a certain wagon.

[MechaGoomba]

there is no power in the game that could potentially force multiple players to vote a certain wagon.

Force, no. Persuade? Convince? Yes.

Giving up on having your opinion be heard is possibly the worst thing you can do. People may be ignoring you now because they have predetermined you to be scum, but at the very least you should leave them with something to look back on after you (eventually) flip.

[karnos]

there is no power in the game that could potentially force multiple players to vote a certain wagon.

Force, no. Persuade? Convince? Yes.

Giving up on having your opinion be heard is possibly the worst thing you can do. People may be ignoring you now because they have predetermined you to be scum, but at the very least you should leave them with something to look back on after you (eventually) flip.

Yes, that goes without saying. You don't have to get a feeling that someone might try to persuade or convince because it's pretty much the entire game. That is the difference between the situations, and why I don't think they are equatable.

[MagnaofIllusion]

People.
We have a single day left. Replacements will not cause an extension; we had something like 5 replacements and deadline only got extended 2 days. 1 replacement won't make a difference to the deadline.
Right now, we've got a couple of players that are getting into giant wall vs. wall slapfights that do nothing to convince anyone of anything. These people need to recalibrate their priorities, because right now they're playing to look smart at the expense of actually helping town.
We then have the players who up to now have been productive, who have good ideas, but aren't posting, quite possibly because of the impenetrable walls.

If the day continues as it has been going, there is almost certainly going to be a no lynch.
Even if a lynch does materialize, I have no confidence it will hit scum. I think Johnny is the most likely to be scum, but I'm not super confident that he is.
If day 2 ends up going down this same road of arrogant posturing and meaningless back-and-forth, we might as well call the game for scum there.

Please try to make this a game where it's worth trying to scumhunt. Don't force people to enter the wall wars if they want to be heard.

Who is the scum we are overlooking then? You don’t think karnos is scum … that much I have taken from our back and forth. I’m having a hard time seeing how posts like this are any more helpful than anything else. Who should we be after then?

Please go and worry about getting a lynch at all today, it's obvious that I'm not able to get a wagon going on you.

Do you intend to sit your vote on someone you don’t think is going to get lynched this close to deadline? I understand you feel passionately about a Math lynch but I don't think it is viable even with my vote there in spirit.

[MathBlade]

People.
We have a single day left. Replacements will not cause an extension; we had something like 5 replacements and deadline only got extended 2 days. 1 replacement won't make a difference to the deadline.
Right now, we've got a couple of players that are getting into giant wall vs. wall slapfights that do nothing to convince anyone of anything. These people need to recalibrate their priorities, because right now they're playing to look smart at the expense of actually helping town.
We then have the players who up to now have been productive, who have good ideas, but aren't posting, quite possibly because of the impenetrable walls.

If the day continues as it has been going, there is almost certainly going to be a no lynch.
Even if a lynch does materialize, I have no confidence it will hit scum. I think Johnny is the most likely to be scum, but I'm not super confident that he is.
If day 2 ends up going down this same road of arrogant posturing and meaningless back-and-forth, we might as well call the game for scum there.

Please try to make this a game where it's worth trying to scumhunt. Don't force people to enter the wall wars if they want to be heard.

This. So this. I am trying to keep my posts more brief but I feel like we are derping so damn hard right now. I am pushing my top scum reads because I really think Johnny is town. It is really hard to elaborate why but the way votes happened screams Johnny is town.

[MathBlade]

Okay, lets be clear. I want to lynch mathblade, I think he is the most obvious scum.

However, I will vote Johnny if the need arises. This is a team game. While I like to think I have it all figured out, truthfully it's all a lot of guesswork and hunches. If the majority, including my main town reads, decide to lynch someone, I'll move my vote to help it happen. I'm not going to be stubborn and cause a no-lynch.

Well then – why again is it something you intimate to be scummy behavior for me to have a reason not to pursue your lynch today (your claim) but still scum reading you and potentially looking to lynch you in future days but when you take a similar stance it is reasonable Town play. Seems to me to be a case of Cognitive Dissonance …

The two shouldn't be equated. My thought was that if you were scum trying to get me lynched, maybe scum have a roleblocker, or some other role to mess with my ability to investigate. I get a nagging feeling that the talk about lynching me tomorrow comes from knowing that I won't have investigation results because you already know I will be blocked somehow. Or, maybe it's because you know I will be nightkilled and it's a misdirect. It just feels off to me. I don't have a strong scum read otherwise, but it is what it is.

I was not trying to imply that simply having a FOS on me while voting someone else is a terrible thing. I just get this feeling while reading that maybe there is some detail to be read between the lines.

As far as my willingness to switch my vote, that isn't something that could be manipulated by some power-role or nightkill. If the mathblade lynch doesn't happen, my vote isn't going to help anything by sitting on him. I can either move it to a viable lynch, or I can be part of the problem and potentially leave us with a no-lynch. It's essentially out of my control.

Bad post is bad. This looks like an attempt to escape the Neo claim early. So much bad here.

[MathBlade]

First of all, I had no time to check at the time but I distinctly remember someone saying something about Johnny's meta. I thought it was magna (I still do actually..) but he says it's not so it might take me a bit to find.

Please do. I looked in a hurry as I am getting ready for work at Magna's ISO by searching for the word "meta" in their ISO and none of those posts came up with a post about Johnny's meta.

Also are you going to answer 826? I find it completely hypocritical that you scum read me for "ignoring" posts I addressed and then ignore my numerous requests for your reads and now direct questions to you.

I skimmed over your wall and saw some misreps. You can try to read my iso again properly and then try again.
For one, I did not say I would have claimed sooner if I was scum, I said I expected scum to claim sooner than Karnos did. This is just one example of stuff you have misinterpreted, and I'm stuck on a scumread on you and there is nothing anyone can do this dayphase to change that. I will reevaluate after we've had flips.
Please go and worry about getting a lynch at all today, it's obvious that I'm not able to get a wagon going on you.

Now off to find that thing..

Oh, one more thing, I never took 510 as a crumb, but I suck at those. Why did you wait so long to bring it up?

I didn't bring it up directly. However I did bring it up when I said I wouldn't be believing Karnos if they claimed. If you are vengeful and crumbing the proper strategy is if you are ever scumread hard is claim VT and fall on your sword and take out a scum. I also hinted at it with the Dierfire questioning / prodding of their votes. If I notice something I either stay very very silent about it or give a quick brief poke. I wouldn't immediately out a vengeful. That nukes their viability. Claiming Neopolitan and crumbing vengeful makes Karnos confirmed scum to me.

[MathBlade]

@Mathblade (and Magna):

You've made more posts than any other player that replaced in near the same time as you, and yet you have far less actual content than anyone else.
I could write it off as playstyle, but my meta analysis makes it look pretty clear: you do usually have this style of many short posts, but usually you're moving towards something constructive with them. I can't see that here.

Sorry guysm I confused your names!

IMHO Mecha is biased here. 469 is content. Granted they haven't been posting as much content but they are moving towards constructive things.

[MathBlade]

If I brought it up directly before Dierfire explained then I wouldn't have been able to get an accurate read on Dierfire's vote shift.

We have a day. I have to get back to work but let's lynch scum. To me that is not Johnny.

[Masquerade]

Thing is, I know my alignment and I read Pers, Mecha and Wingback as town (Pers less so currently) and those were the people to sheep me on Johnny the fastest. So for me that wagon doesn't feel scum motivated.

[MechaGoomba]

Claiming Neopolitan and crumbing vengeful makes Karnos confirmed scum to me.

It would make him confscum to me

if karnos crumbed vengeful.

I don't believe that, because Occam's Razor suggests that a hypothetical scum!karnos didn't actually crumb a role that would get him instalynched, using wording that is so unspecific I wouldn't accept it as a crumb if he did claim vengeful, only to claim a completely different role later, in a game where scum have daytalk.

469 is content. [...] they are moving towards constructive things.

469 was one of the earliest posts Johnny made. If anything, he's moving away from being constructive.
Regardless of that, I don't think 469 actually was content. It was long, sure, but almost all of it was extremely inoffensive. He townreads Mizzy, Persy, and me while scumreading Chumba, karnos, and kappy; he thinks sick's play is bad, but also that he shouldn't be lynched. Oh, and all of this is based on posts over 10 pages back.
Can you honestly say that anything in that post moved the game forward? Did anyone argue with it? Question it? Use it to back their own theories? No. It stood alone, contributing nothing but words.

[GreyICE]

Still looking for a replacement. I'm going to throw up a VC when I get a chance, but consider this extended for another 48 hours. I won't extend it a third time, there has to simply be the general structure of a mafia game here, instead of an indefinite thread of death. If you would rather have an indefinite extension, please PM me. I don't want a discussion in thread, because people may try to read alignment information from it, so I am not paying any attention to whatever people say in thread regarding extensions (or really any other topic regarding moderation)

[Persivul]

Fuck that. Would a couple more people please vote Johnny?

[GreyICE]

Official Vote Count

JohnnyFarrar

(5): Persivul, Wingback, MagnaofIllusion, qubixes, MechaGoomba

MathBlade

(2): karnos, Masquerade

Kappy

(2): Saru, Dierfire

MagnaofIllusion

(1): MathBlade

Wingback

(1): The Bulge

Not Voting

(2): Kappy, JohnnyFarrar

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-26 15:59:55)

Wingback and Saru have been prodded

Kappy is on VLA

[Saru]

Ok, so, looking back on all the walls and whatnot of the last 3 pages, I guess I can sum it up(atleast for myself) as:
Math thinks that Johnny is not scum and sees the wagon as scum filled. Hates Magna with a passion. Points to Karnos putting out some crumb about being vengeful, but I think Mecha makes a good point about how that's probably not the case. I don't read it as a crumb myself anyways.
Magna seems pretty convinced that Johnny is scum. Hates Math with a passion.

Anyways, I personally don't believe that Johnny is scum or even really all that scummy tbh. Most of what he's done has played to his meta in other games, only with less content. I read him as lazy/anti-town. Not scummy, but anti-town nonetheless. His laziness and just general lack of contribution annoys me to no end(look at my vote on Kappy >.>) and honestly, at this point, as much as I hate it, I'd be fine with a policy lynch. I just don't see Johnny helping town in any real form down the line. On top of that, I just don't see any real case for a lynch on anyone else(at the moment) and find it hard to see another wagon forming on someone else even if a case was made on them. Too much time would be taken up by useless back and forth walls as the last few pages have shown.

With that being said:
UNVOTE: Kappy
VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

Now at L-1.

[GreyICE]

Firebringer replaces The Bulge! Thank you so much Firebringer! And with that, that's the final extension of the day.

[Firebringer]

I have not read anything.
But I am town, which is shitty for the town.

Anyways, whats the case on Johnny right now?

Consider me not reading much right now. If at all?
I will try to be pretty active though.

[Firebringer]

Wait going to do a quick iso of him.

Also some cool people are here!!!
Hi MATHBLADE!
Hi Masquerade!

And Persivul who I now am not on enemy terms with, but I don't know if thats mutual.

[Firebringer]

Okay, not much really in that quick go through of iso.
The things I could see being him scum were his actions regarding other players which seemed kind of buddy/extremely friendly attitude, at least in the beginning, it kind of drops off a little with some apathetic attitute later in the day.

That oculd just be player/mood at the time, but it kind of seems actually scummy. I could hammer this.
Anyone else want to go into that?

@Mod do we get anymore extensions or is the deadline correct in vc

[GreyICE]

@Mod do we get anymore extensions or is the deadline correct in vc

Current deadline is correct. The most current deadline can always be found in the first post of the game (it's required by the VC software).

[Saru]

It seems like most people on the wagon don't like that Johnny is just so apathetic to the game, myself included. Some people have pointed out how he started being a bit more active as soon as the wagon formed on him. I personally don't see anything too incriminating in Johnny's ISO or just his general play. That might also just be a result of not having that much to go off of.

I wouldn't mind if you hammered him, because I really don't think he's gonna put up a real defense besides "meh" or something silly and this game needs to leave D1 already because it seems to be going nowhere, fast.