Mini 1800 - Game Over

[MathBlade]

The purpose of claiming was a last fail safe. A last ditch effort to see if the scumminess seen matches the role claimed.For example if it was a lurker lynch or someone just dropping a vote on a person they would have to claim a cop or a tracker or something with an investigative role.

Why didn't lurker scum adapt and start claiming an investigative role to avoid lynch?

However if you were loud and tunnely and scum read and you didn't claim VT or BP then you got lynched.

Why didn't loud tunnely scum adapt and start claiming VT or BP to avoid lynch?

About this.. Mathblade, what if a player has a general scummy playstyle?

They fix it.

[Masquerade]

Well actually, math, I kind of changed my mind about you during the night and don't think you're scum anymore just an idiot in a tunnel with the lights off, because I realized that all your reads were based on this one read you have on Karnos and that's something I think of as being towny. I have a tendency to not share my reads completely because I don't want scum to piggyback off them, especially pretty early or very late in the phase. Also, I don't do walls because, again, I have trouble concentrating so if I write a lot I forget what I was on about. I know that's not a good thing to have when playing mafia, that's why I make short posts and focus on max 3 people at a time. That's also why I completely forgot about Qubixes, because of the whole ordeal with Karnos and then Johnny meanwhile you being a frustrated ass.

[qubixes]

@Quibixes ---OMG dead horse. That has been beaten soooo many times. Moving off that Johnny wagon without supporting your own is bad. Misrep on the Karnos thing -- I said Masq defended Karnos. Masq was pressuring me but was really lazy d1. Now it seems like they care to put in actual effort. This feels like you are trying to go "noooo not bussing" These are not the droids you are looking for.

I wasn't sure what "they" included there. I supported the Dierfire wagon, which Wingback just made a big case on. What's bad about that? And yeah I think your suggestion of bussing here is really weird, with basically no evidence to back it up. Other than that we interacted very little D1, which wasn't actually the case.

[Persivul]

Maybe a reread is in order because maybe I am a stubborn asshole.

FTR I'm not just buying karnos's claim at face value. If we don't see some results and/or decent scum hunting, I don't want him making it to lylo. BUT, IMO he doesn't need to be lynched today, some other people feel the same way, and so your tunneling him while lecturing us about our mafia deficiencies is not advancing the game. It's a distraction that scum are enjoying, probably even if karnos IS scum. Do you really think you're going to win people to your cause by telling them they're stupid? Personally I'm thinking that if DLP is so fucking great, why are you playing here?

[MathBlade]

See. That. That is what I wanted. Actual goddamn thought instead of just "Karnos is town" blanket statements.

I have to go to work but I am rereading the thread afterwards.

Do I think we are going to win if I do? Maybe. Hell it already got people to admit they are going to analyze Karnos instead of just going "Karnos is town because role blocked claim". So yeah sometimes calling people stupid and where they rely on site meta instead of analysis forces people to analyze everything. Just like how you are pointing things out to me in a logical manner and I adjust to mine. That is how Mafia works and we all come together and lynch scum.

[MathBlade]

@Quibixes ---OMG dead horse. That has been beaten soooo many times. Moving off that Johnny wagon without supporting your own is bad. Misrep on the Karnos thing -- I said Masq defended Karnos. Masq was pressuring me but was really lazy d1. Now it seems like they care to put in actual effort. This feels like you are trying to go "noooo not bussing" These are not the droids you are looking for.

I wasn't sure what "they" included there. I supported the Dierfire wagon, which Wingback just made a big case on. What's bad about that? And yeah I think your suggestion of bussing here is really weird, with basically no evidence to back it up. Other than that we interacted very little D1, which wasn't actually the case.

They = Masquerade

I call everyone "they" most of the time instead of he/she pronouns.

[Persivul]

See. That. That is what I wanted. Actual goddamn thought instead of just "Karnos is town" blanket statements.

I have to go to work but I am rereading the thread afterwards.

Do I think we are going to win if I do? Maybe. Hell it already got people to admit they are going to analyze Karnos instead of just going "Karnos is town because role blocked claim". So yeah sometimes calling people stupid and where they rely on site meta instead of analysis forces people to analyze everything. Just like how you are pointing things out to me in a logical manner and I adjust to mine. That is how Mafia works and we all come together and lynch scum.

You didn't force anything, jackass. I've been thinking that all along. Sometimes it's better to just think something and observe for awhile rather than put the person on alert.

[MechaGoomba]

Persivul, do you really believe that it's that important to shoot MathBlade's reasoning down? I mean, I'm all for getting them to stop making giant hypermultipost tunnelwalls, but their arguments are pretty much torn to shreds as it is.

MathBlade, if you give me one solid post accusing Masq, qubixes, or both, that does not involve either karnos (in any way, shape, or form), their conflicts with you, or the vote things at the end of the day (we all know they happened, repeating it won't change anything), I would really appreciate it. As it stands I'm really worried about those two and I would like to get a read on them, but when you're pulling all discussion about them back into the mighty discussion-devouring black hole that is the MathBlade/Karnos Conflict, I just can't.

After I gave up my Karnos quest, I didn't really know what to do. And Saru (and you IIRC) was right that the thread was a bit of a pain to read.

Hmm. That is fair, and it does give a rather interesting new perspective.

Saru: I'm beginning to reevaluate my qubixes read. From 754 onwards, he does seem to be fitting the general pattern of "apathetic townie"; even when defending himself or pushing you, he seems somehow disengaged. I could mark his conflict with you down as latching on to whatever avenues he can take to contribute; that said, I can't follow the flow of the argument at all, and somehow I feel that there's something in there I'm missing. If you could give a general overview of it from your perspective, that'd be really helpful.
Going to UNVOTE: qubixes for now.

Looking back at Wingback, one thing that really bothers me is Magna's 986. He tries to cast doubt on Masquerade by reinterpreting Wingback's statements to be an attack on Masq, despite the fact that Wing was steadfastly defending Masq throughout day 1. Note that this is after Masq voted Magna using Wingback's death as his reasoning.

[Persivul]

Persivul, do you really believe that it's that important to shoot MathBlade's reasoning down?

No...I just don't like the guy.

[Masquerade]

When I read Magna's posts I got a really strong feeling of him pushing an agenda. What Mecha just pointed out is part of the reason why I think Wingback was killed.

[Masquerade]

I should probably dig into Magna's iso and also whom he replaced to make a case or something.. I'll try for a bit tonight.

[Saru]

Saru: I'm beginning to reevaluate my qubixes read. From 754 onwards, he does seem to be fitting the general pattern of "apathetic townie"; even when defending himself or pushing you, he seems somehow disengaged. I could mark his conflict with you down as latching on to whatever avenues he can take to contribute; that said, I can't follow the flow of the argument at all, and somehow I feel that there's something in there I'm missing. If you could give a general overview of it from your perspective, that'd be really helpful.
Going to UNVOTE: qubixes for now.

My general overview of qubixes as of right now is that he's horribly misguided townie. Honestly, my read of him has been like a roller-coaster, and I was finding it hard to pin down whether he was just misguided townie or silly scum. Some posts would lean one way and some posts the other. After looking back at the entire back and forth between us starting from the end of D1 up until now, I'm going to stick with my misguided townie read of him. He just seems to be trying too hard to prove his "worth" to the town. Nothing wrong with that. Most novice players who are town tend to play this way to feel like they've done a lot for the town. Unfortunately, as in qubixes' case, it can work against them.

Take his "delayed" argument against me for example. He pretty much is arguing that because I was "delayed" onto most of the wagons(which is the wrong word to use, by the way), that it seems to be a pattern of me jumping onto wagons late which is scummy. This makes no sense as the only "wagons" I was "jumping" onto were the Sick and Persivul ones at the very very start of the game. I've already pointed out that both were for reaction testing. He would have to prove that I wasn't reaction testing to point how that my votes on them were scummy. Reaction testing in the start of the game seemed to be the only thing that made sense to me, as it helped me develop reads of those two specific individuals who were being suspected the most. I came out of all of that with the conclusions that Sick felt like frustrated town to me, and that Persivul was null for me.

There are three major things wrong with the "delayed" argument. For one thing, when I voted Sick and Persivul, they weren't really wagons at the time. They were in no real danger of being lynched when I voted them. It'd be silly of scum to jump onto a wagon that didn't have much support behind it. Secondly, when I did vote them, I gave very

clear-cut

reasons as to why I was voting them. I presented my reads of the entire roster and gave reasons for them. Keep in mind, these were ALONGSIDE my votes. Notice how my votes were on the people I was scum-reading(reaction testing). And lastly, and my

biggest issue

(seriously don't ignore this), with him saying that I was just "delay" hopping onto wagons, is that

I NEVER VOTED KARNOS

. Keep that in mind. Because, if you look at it, out of the

entire thread

so far, the Karnos wagon was one of the

biggest ones

. The perfect one for scum to jump on without being noticed. The one that had pretty much all the support in the world save for Mathblade. Even Wingback eventually started suspecting him after vehemently defending him. What in the world makes qubixes think that as scum who apparently

loves

to delay wagon hop, I would not ever vote Karnos. Talk about the fucking jackpot when it comes to something like that. His wagon would have been the

perfect

one for me to join if I was doing what qubixes claims I was. Instead, I gave clear-cut reasoning as to why I stayed neutral on him. Keep in mind that qubixes literally admits to conf-biasing by saying he only town-read me for initially supporting his Karnos vote, but then scum reads me for everything before and after, when I was pretty much opposite of him on most things. 'Tis a sad mafia world we live in.

I was trying to show him how his arguments against me can be easily applied to what he's been doing too, but he didn't seem to get that. Actually, most of his arguments are generic as fuck. I could easily apply them to just about anyone in most mafia games. It's not uncommon for town to delay their vote on someone who's being pushed hard by everybody else. I'm not a fucking sheep. I look at all the arguments being presented and come up with my own conclusion, as I've said before. I have to take into account that a wagon could be started by scum. Among a host of other things. And as for the sitting back thing, like...

come on

. That is such a nit-pick it's not even funny. It doesn't even matter because he admits to sitting back for the same reason I did as-well. So by his own logic, I'm town. So I see no reason I have to argue that any further.

I'm not sure what you mean by apathetic town. He seems to be pretty engaged to me, regardless of the content of those engagements being god awful.

I'm not going to unvote him only because I'm curious to see what he will say to all this.

[Saru]

EBWOP: Take out "Mathblade" in that third paragraph and replace it with "Wingback." My bad.

[MagnaofIllusion]

re: neapolitan, I wanted to pick a target that I thought actually had a decent chance of being a VT, and that also wasn't making a lot of noise. Someone like masquerade fit into the first qualifier, but I had my fear that he might be killed or jailed at night. I figured persivul had been keeping such a low profile lately that it was unlikely for him to be killed or jailed, and I thought there was at least a fair chance of him being a VT.

Why is someone being Jailed a part of this reasoning? Jailkeepers don’t prevent investigation roles from working on their targets. A Rolestopper? Sure that makes sense. But Jailkeeper doesn’t.

Whelmed. So you're neutral then?
I actually think Karnos' pick made sense..
What is your read on Qubixes?

Yes, it is neutral claim. As in completely NAI. He could be Town telling the truth about being blocked. He could be lying scum. His result should not adjust your read on his slot one iota. He’s still on the more likely than not scum as it stands.

But frankly the fact that you (and others) have chosen to pre-emptively espouse that you agree with his pick before he answers is annoying as hell. I’m trying to sort him outside the claim and this sort of interference is frustrating to no end. Why do you insist on doing that?

My Quib read going into Night 1 was Maybe Town. I think his explanation in 998 as to why his play surrounding the Johnny wagon doesn’t make a ton of sense as scum is pretty solid. I don’t understand his Saru push at all and frankly that portion of his posting today has looked scummy.

I agree with points 1 and 3, but I'm not entirely certain about 2. Killing the person conftowned by karnos might work once or twice, but a pattern would be pretty obvious, especially since we're not directing him in-thread.

Why exactly would killing a Confirmed VT after they had been made such in thread be suspicious? Scum pretty much have to do so or face being PoEd into oblivion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

For example I am willing to bet we are going to start seeing a major shift of doomed as fuck scum on the site claim some kind of investigative and role blocked because of "site meta".

Do you think doomed scum don’t claim Investigative roles looking to draw counter-claims already? Frankly this argument is pretty moronic when it is a very common practice.

1) No. It doesn't. You always vote a null read or a scum read never a town one.

Bad argument. Town can certainly be wrong about their Town reads. Happens all the damn time. Situationally voting a Town-read who is not Mod Confirmed in some way to prevent a No Lynch is Pro-Town play regardless of the result. Yet you are peddling that it should never be done.

...Are you really pressuring me because I had the balls to ask questions and try to read the slot that interacted. Reads evolve. I was suspecting Quibixes for the end of day shift as evidenced by the posts at the end of the day. I thought more pressure needed to be applied while the conversation was going. Then with Karnos's results coming out I wanted to call attention to what I think is absolute bullshit. If I claimed Flying Spaghetti Monster with the ability to wrap all scum in a post restriction that every post they must end with I am scum and said "OMG I am so important please jailkeep/roleblock/protect me" and then it would be suspicious if no one had such a post restriction. Replace Flying Spaghetti Monster with "Neopolitan" and post restriction with results.

I do not have enough votes for all of my scum reads. Therefore I poke and push and prod. I attempt to read people.

Of course reads evolve. Where did I say they didn’t? I asked you to express what your scum-reads were today. Instead of actually answering the question we get this mini rant about the FSM and other non-sensical points that doesn’t actually answer the question.

I’ve looked back on your posts today. You’ve had 36. The only ones that address Quib directly (aka in a scum-hunting manner) are 942, 954, 1069, and 1080. And a read over those posts doesn’t show someone digging into a potential scum read with probing questions. Those are light, cursory posts.

I encourage everyone to read Math’s Day 2 ISO and decide if you believe Math is “poking, pushing and prodding” Quib. I don’t see sign of scum-hunting there.

VOTE: Math

[MagnaofIllusion]

Frankly all this talk about some other site is stupid and needs to end. I don’t know what DLP is nor do I care.

I wasn't sure what "they" included there. I supported the Dierfire wagon, which Wingback just made a big case on. What's bad about that? And yeah I think your suggestion of bussing here is really weird, with basically no evidence to back it up. Other than that we interacted very little D1, which wasn't actually the case.

Why are you so focused today on Saru (other than he is pushing you) as opposed to Dier today then?

Looking back at Wingback, one thing that really bothers me is Magna's 986. He tries to cast doubt on Masquerade by reinterpreting Wingback's statements to be an attack on Masq, despite the fact that Wing was steadfastly defending Masq throughout day 1. Note that this is after Masq voted Magna using Wingback's death as his reasoning.

Do you disagree that the post I quoted was a good snapshot of Wing’s end of Day suspicions? Why are you specifying Masq when Math and Dier are also implicated in that post?

[MechaGoomba]

Situationally voting a Town-read who is not Mod Confirmed in some way to prevent a No Lynch is Pro-Town play regardless of the result.

Was that what karnos did? Who do you think Math was talking about if not karnos?

I encourage everyone to read Math’s Day 2 ISO and decide if you believe Math is “poking, pushing and prodding” Quib. I don’t see sign of scum-hunting there.

929 to 954 is pressure on qubixes, but then Math goes back to tunneling karnos.
If you're really claiming Math is scum because they're not putting enough effort into scumhunting, then you

need

to address the question: "Why would scum!Math put so much effort into tunneling on someone that they know is never going to be lynched?"
Tunneling is bad play, to be sure, but it's not scummy, and in volumes like this it gives me a very clear impression of confbiased town.

Do you disagree that the post I quoted was a good snapshot of Wing’s end of Day suspicions? Why are you specifying Masq when Math and Dier are also implicated in that post?

Do not do the implication dance. Yes, you managed to be sufficiently vague that you could hypothetically claim you meant Math or Dier instead of Masq. No, I don't care. Technicalities are not a magic shield against criticism.
You're defending yourself, so clearly you realized I was pushing you as scum. Yet you don't actually seem to care about the main point; you're only picking at details.
You're not saying "No I'm not scum", you're saying "you can't prove I'm scum." And the way you're saying it is not "I'm disproving your fallacious argument" but "wasn't I careful enough? Didn't I leave wiggle room?"
VOTE: MagnaofIllusion


@Saru: 1086 was a very good argument as to why qubixes' scumread of you is wrong. I appreciate that. However, what I was looking for was more, from your perspective, what was the progression of qubixes' read on you? What parts of his argument was he most invested in? When did he start backing off? When did you feel he was putting you under the most pressure?
Having an "inside look" at that sort of thing would be really important to me evaluating his conflict with you, specifically figuring out if it was the primary read he had that he latched onto or something he was pushing in order to avoid not pushing anything. That's the primary thing that would separate "probably apathetic town" from "maybe apathetic scum."

[MagnaofIllusion]

Was that what karnos did? Who do you think Math was talking about if not karnos?

No that is what Math is accusing Masq of doing – voting for a Townread. Are you not bothering to read for context?

929 to 954 is pressure on qubixes, but then Math goes back to tunneling karnos.
If you're really claiming Math is scum because they're not putting enough effort into scumhunting, then you need to address the question: "Why would scum!Math put so much effort into tunneling on someone that they know is never going to be lynched?"

Why would Town Math focus so much effort on tunneling on someone they know is never going to be lynched? What you are floating is NAI and you should know that.

Do not do the implication dance. Yes, you managed to be sufficiently vague that you could hypothetically claim you meant Math or Dier instead of Masq. No, I don't care. Technicalities are not a magic shield against criticism.
You're defending yourself, so clearly you realized I was pushing you as scum. Yet you don't actually seem to care about the main point; you're only picking at details.
You're not saying "No I'm not scum", you're saying "you can't prove I'm scum." And the way you're saying it is not "I'm disproving your fallacious argument" but "wasn't I careful enough? Didn't I leave wiggle room?"
VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

Why can’t you answer a question? This sort of response is exactly the kind of response I would expect from scum … dodging asking with over-explanation.

Wing’s end of Day suspicions were Masq, Math and Dier. This isn’t hard to figure out. Yet you have latched on it only being a focus on Masq. Actually the timing of this response is interesting – you vote me right after I return to my wagon on Math.

Math flips scum and you are next in line.

[karnos]

Why is someone being Jailed a part of this reasoning? Jailkeepers don’t prevent investigation roles from working on their targets. A Rolestopper? Sure that makes sense. But Jailkeeper doesn’t.

Huh. Apparently I was playing the role in a nonstandard way at the previous site I played on, I never realized before now that you can still investigate someone "in jail".

My job was killing me today, haven't had any time to post. I did try to read the thread throughout the day when I had breaks, but I didn't see much to comment on at first glance. MathBlade is still making a lot of noise, nothing new there.

Kappy's been MIA for the last two days, due for a prod I think?

I have a 2-year-old asking me questions about paw patrol every 5 minutes so I can't really focus enough to re-read thoroughly now, I'll try to make some more notable contribution later tonight.

[MechaGoomba]

No that is what Math is accusing Masq of doing – voting for a Townread. Are you not bothering to read for context?

Whoops, my bad. Sue me, Math has been hammering the karnos point into our heads long enough I think it's justified I assumed that is what it was.

[Tunneling] is NAI and you should know that.

Math tunnels karnos = Math focuses on karnos over other players = Math does not focus on non-karnos players = Math does not focus on qubixes = Math doesn't devote a lot of time to pushing qubixes
You scumread Math for not pushing qubixes enough = You scumread Math for tunneling karnos = You scumread Math for something you admit is NAI

Explain, please.

Math flips scum and you are next in line.

Apart from everything else wrong with a me-Math scumteam, if I was scum with Math, there would have been endless scum-PT arguments about karnos, eventually leading to either one of us replacing out, one of us bussing the other, or karnos being NKed. None of those things have happened.

[GreyICE]

Official Vote Count

MathBlade

(3): karnos, Persivul, MagnaofIllusion

MagnaofIllusion

(2): Masquerade, MechaGoomba

qubixes

(1): Saru

Dierfire

(1): Firebringer

karnos

(1): MathBlade

Saru

(1): qubixes

Not Voting

(2): Dierfire, Kappy

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-11 15:59:52)

[MathBlade]

At work will be home in an hour or two. Then will begin reread as promised.

[GreyICE]

Kappy is being replaced.

[Firebringer]

I am totally willing to vote magna for just voting one of my strongest town reads (math)

[Saru]

@Saru: 1086 was a very good argument as to why qubixes' scumread of you is wrong. I appreciate that. However, what I was looking for was more, from your perspective, what was the progression of qubixes' read on you? What parts of his argument was he most invested in? When did he start backing off? When did you feel he was putting you under the most pressure?
Having an "inside look" at that sort of thing would be really important to me evaluating his conflict with you, specifically figuring out if it was the primary read he had that he latched onto or something he was pushing in order to avoid not pushing anything. That's the primary thing that would separate "probably apathetic town" from "maybe apathetic scum."

Ah, ok, now I understand what you mean. Well basically his recent read of me stems from 380 where he's friendly to me and gives me a little wink about how scum could be caught lazily hopping onto the Karnos wagon. This is important, because at this point, he town reads me for agreeing with his case on Karnos. Also because this reasoning of scum lazily hopping onto wagons is exactly what he accuses me of, but I accuse him of too. My accusation of him is more to show how his own argument is crap and can be easily used against anyone who "lazily" hops onto a wagon. Anyways, so he town reads me for agreeing that Karnos looks scummy(924) but then, he starts to question me by asking Magna why Magna was town reading me, as my voting pattern looked suspicious. Personally, I think he got annoyed at the fact that I was really the only person(besides Wingback, who eventually ends us suspecting Karnos anyways) that didn't push Karnos hard and I stayed neutral on him(which I provided my reasons for in 587). His 743 suggests this because he seems to suspect me of not voting Karnos(the biggest fucking wagon in the game) when I called Karnos suspicious. This obviously ignores my neutral read of him that I pointed out before his 743. That suggests to me that he pretty much hated anyone that didn't support his Karnos vote. It irked him to no end. He even admits to that. Regardless of whether he found them suspicious, people who didn't vote Karnos, he wasn't fond of. His town read of Wingback suggests that he's not equally applying his reading method to all players though. Hence, the conf-bias. He town reads Wingback, despite the defense of Karnos, but scum reads me, given that I said I was neutral on Karnos, but never really defend him.

This is where the conf-bias starts to take a life of it's own. Look at the end of my 895 where I call out qubixes' vote on Johnny as scummy. Keep in mind, I was calling the

vote

scummy, not the person. Because even up to that point, I had a weak town read of him, so it wasn't a

big deal

. The person performing the action is just as important as the action itself. But he made my scummy read of his vote a

huge deal

in his reply to me in 898. At this point, is when I think his read of me changed to pretty much solid scum. However, keep in mind, that he still votes Dierfire because he feels that I'm some unlynchable angel(which wasn't true). So I found it

REALLY

strange how he chose to vote me outright in D2, given that he felt Dierfire was just simply a better vote overall, regardless of the deadline. That suggests to me that over N1, he let his conf-bias of me being a "jerk" to him get the best of his read. I personally feel that he doesn't really think I'm some 100% scum, but he can't help but say that because he's angry. He uses the excuse that being a "jerk" is apparently a valid scum strategy, but he ends up contradicting himself here.

Think about it.

He points to me being some stealthy scum who loves to subtly hop wagons(which has been disproved anyways) but also I'm a scum who loves to use asshole tactics to his advantage. Don't you think that by being an asshole, I would get called out for it(notice how no one has) and I would be drawing a butt load of attention to myself? So how am I sneaky scum who subtly hops wagons and sits back, but then I'm also some crazy scum who loves to be an asshole to people? Being an asshole will get you nowhere. Regardless of your alignment. His scum profile of me contradicts itself.

As for pressure, I haven't felt any real pressure from him. Like I said, he has terrible arguments. I don't worry myself over someone who can't come up with coherent and non-contradictory arguments. I like to point it out to help them, but after that, the rest is up to them. He seems to be most invested in his "sitting back" and "delayed" arguments. Those are like his babies. He holds onto them, hard. But I've already shown why those arguments are contradictory to his scum profile of me and just plain bad in general.

I had a much longer post than this, but I decided to cut it down to really the main points of his read on me. Hopefully this answers your questions.