Mini 1796 | May 13th - Game over (Tomato Mafia wins)

[Tommy]

Mod, I'm V/LA till Monday evening UK time I'm afraid.

I'm pretty sure the Strals are sock puppets. Not really sure what to do about that. If they're on different teams, they're unlikely to play to their win condition.

Noted

[Tommy]

*VOTE: Dunnstral*

[Tommy]

Probably not going to be able catch up completely tonight, but here are some thoughts on the start of the game.

On page 2, Dunnstral manufactures a nothing wagon on Raskolnikov. Which is fine by me - I like an RVS wagon. It raises the stakes. People get a little nervous and you start to see where they stand. So I agree with Raskolnikov in post 35.

I also like this from Raskolnikov:

Do you two know each other?
Is this like a good cop bad cop routine?

This would be a good moment to explain my sock puppets comment. Sock puppets are multiple accounts controlled by the same person. It's against site rules for one player to have two slots in a game. Here's what I said to the game and list mods during the sign-up phase:

Hi N and Creature,

Zachstralkita and Dunnstral signed up for the game at the same time, with the same message. They have the same join date, and Zachstralkita's topics list is a subset of Dunnstral's. Do you think they're sock puppets?

Tommy

Neither replied. Now I'm starting to wonder whether Dunnstral is a legitimate player and Zachstralkita is trolling him. That appears to be what they both imply in answer to Raskolnikov. Dunnstral, is that how you would characterise the situation?

Page 3: liking Dunnstral, disliking Blue Yoshi, can't read Zach.

Page 4: I agree with Dunnstral that Zachstralkita's switch to Raskolnikov is scummy, and that drmyshottyizsik joining the wagon was fine. Don't like Dunnstral lying about having reasons for voting Raskolnikov.

Page 5: Jar JarDrinks has a good case on Raskolnikov at 109 and 113. Trivium gives no reason for jumping on the Raskolnikov wagon.

On page 6, this one is fishy:

that wasnt a scum claim btw

Trivium's vote at 146 is OMGUS and nothing else.

Page 9: inspectorscout shouldn't be hunting for power roles, but I don't think it's a scum tell.

pointing out drmy here is good too (though I don't quite agree with them being scum yet)

What is this 'yet'?

I'll keep reading up before I attempt another vote.

[Tommy]

Don't agree with them being scum based on what was provided, but could see it with more information

Don't like that, but I'm town-reading you overall.

VOTE: BlueYoshi

Why?

Vote: JarJar

Why?

[Tommy]

But you were ready to go, 'I may decide to call this scummy later.'

[Tommy]

And?

And I thought that was slightly off. But let's not make a big deal of it: overall you look town.

[Tommy]

Still catching up:

I literally cannot tell if Tommy's vote was RVS and he hasn't read the game at all or if he has read the game and acknowledged the Dunn-Zach interactions because that was the most ridiculous reason I've seen someone getting voted for in pretty much my entire life.

I had about twenty minutes to skim the thread. I was so sure at that point that Dunn and Zach were the same person that I pretty much skipped their interactions. 'This guy's filling up pages arguing with himself,' I thought. I probably shouldn't have tried to vote. I was sort of thinking that an uninformed vote is better than none.

[Tommy]

K nice, stop commenting on useless shit and put your vote somewhere, perhaps, on JarJar.

Not ready yet. Still got seven pages to catch up. And now three more pages since I last posted. You guys are chatty.

I prefer sitting back a tad and observing the machine on a sociological plane. I'll get there. So far I don't have any super strong scum reads, and I don't want to get in the way of them developing.

I do not dig this.

VOTE: BlueYoshi

Why?

because I scumread him

I do not dig this either. Both of you are playing like scum. Give me some content or die.

nnn_thekushmountains's defence of Jar JarDrinks is weak.

All right, now for a bit more catch-up.

that wasnt a scum claim btw i just hate those if ur x then y posts

why did you feel the need to even point that out?

This is good. So is Zach's reads list at 244. On the other hand, inspectorscout's reads list at 301 is evasive.

[Tommy]

Jar JarDrinks's 475 and Bacde's 478 both seem town.

[Tommy]

And even by saying this, i fucked myself because scum now knows my line of thoughts, too, so they can adapt to what i said.

I think this is the kind of 'Aargh I'm going round and round' thought process that's hard for a newbie to fake as scum.

[Tommy]

I've just been trying to build a case on Yoshi, but my heart isn't in it. The fact that he flaked makes his non-committal posts seem less calculated. I would support a wagon on Kush, Shotty or Trivium. None of whom have any votes... I'll go back over them and pick one.

[Tommy]

VOTE: Trivium

No reason given for his Rask or Dunn jokes. Obly voted for Yoshi after Rask told him to.

[Tommy]

Sorry, when I typed jokes I meant votes. Although they were kind of a joke.

[Tommy]

Happy with the drmyshottyizsik wagon.

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

My main problem with him is that he campaigns against information. He's not only unwilling to produce reads, but he encourages other players to hide theirs too. Maybe bacde is his buddy: between them they're trying to create a game-wide culture of secrecy that can only be good for scum.

The Dunnstral 'pressure' vote was pointless and he did nothing to attempt to create pressure apart from the vote itself. The tactic of casting nothing-votes fits in with the refusal to give reads - it reduces the information that the town has access to. His current vote is the same - he gives no reason except for this vague word 'pressure'.

[Tommy]

While things are quite, here are my thoughts on nnn_thekushmountains. He doesn't scum-hunt: he refuses to read the thread, and asks the world in general for suggestions as to what he should do. He's attempting to coast through the game, which I think is behaviour you see in scum more often than in town. Two insubstantial town reads are the total of his content so far. Would lynch.

[Tommy]

Zach and Trivium, what do you think of my case on drmyshottyizsik?

[Tommy]

Can you point me to where he encourages others to hide reads?

Sure:

See alpaca I disagree, I think day one scum have much more to gain by knowing where everyone stands. After n1 and observable actions have been performed, then info comes in. Right now we have to solve a riddle with out knowing the specifics of riddle the answer or having any clue. So, unless you are trying to screw up the people solving the riddle why do you need to know early on who think what about the answerless, questionless and clue less puzzle. Day two is when people start to solve things, based off of day one. In other words day one I greatly prefer to have everyone go at it and have high powered wagons. Sometimes good information comes from this day 1 and we could get lucky and catch scum. However, statistically town is usually lynched day one and it is based on day one that we will have a place to start day 2.

Not only is he encouraging people to withhold their reads, he's also discouraging people from asking each other for their reads.

Anyway, I guess it's a bit academic now.

Quick what do you guys think about the scout/shotty thing?

Can you quote the bits you're interested in?

[Tommy]

Kush is extremely at fault. Kush, did you read this?

wait for him to post before u do anything.

Did you disagree with it? Can you take us through the chain of thought that led you to quickhammer?

[Tommy]

If nnn gets lynched, it won't be because he quickhammered. That's NAI imo. Legitimately ONE PLAYER IN THIS GAME qh'd me because he didn't know I was at L-1.

Are you saying Kush gets a pass because he may not have known Shotty was at L-1?

Hi can I have feedback on my vote please.

I don't have a read on Lowell yet.

Zach, can you give a case on me please.

[Tommy]

Explain to me, why you think that nnn's hammer is indicative of him being mafia and that it isn't just you being super opportunistic on easy town lynch.

I will answer that after Kush has come back and explained why he hammered when he did.

Tommy is literally saying nnn is scum for hammering a slot he voted.

I actually haven't yet said that. But I'll say now that the hammer was scummy.

I don't like that he said I was town because I called Alpaca out on his "junk posts".

Dude, I just ISOd myself and I think it must have been someone else who said that.

Bacde, can you give some reasons for your JarJarDrinks vote please.

There are 3 scum ppl, even if he is scum, rushing a kill on him isnt needed at all

That line is pretty fucking awful for reasons I don't need to explain.

This is a really good spot.

if you're town I shouldn't really have a case as to why we should kill you

I don't accept that.

- and you shouldn't want it

I don't accept that either. It's part of my job as town to refute cases against me. I can't do that if you vote without reasoning. So I ask you again: why did you vote me? Transcend has also asked you this, and you ignored the question from him too.

The only person in this game that I would be completely against lynching at really any point is Dunn, and I'm sure we can all agree as to why.

Haha, yeah I can think of a good reason. I think this was a genuine townslip. Scout, you should unvote.

[Tommy]

I just don't like his word choice by saying that he was "at fault" for lynching the same slot he did.

The fault wasn't that Kush voted for Shotty - Shotty was playing like scum. The fault was that he hammered before we got a claim.

[Tommy]

So you think Trivium deliberately faked the town slip?

[Tommy]

I think it's far more likely. Look at his ISO.

[Tommy]

@Tommy I really just think you try to portray yourself as appearing town a significant amount.

Can you give examples?

That being said, your reaction was fine. There are other people voting you besides me, though.

Yeah. Raskolnikov is mainly concerned about my place on yesterday's wagon, which is valid. Transcend's case now rests on my attitude to Kush's hammer. On that, I'm holding my peace until we hear from Kush.

And I don't think Trivium slipped I think he was being deliberately sarcastic.

It doesn't read like that to me.

[Tommy]

While you're waiting, Zach, why not find some quotes that show me being LAMIST?

[Tommy]

Fair enough, yeah. He'd already been among my possible lynches, but I only articulated why because a Shotty wagon had sprung up and I wanted to join it.

[Tommy]

yea when you linked to it in another post i was expecting some ace attorney phoenix wright shit but NOPE

Well it was D1. I didn't have much on anyone.

[Tommy]

I'd like to put forth the question why is not knowing who died considered a slip?

Scum would know who they killed.

773 assigning reasoning to my naked vote is humorous, it also potentially shows hes not paying attention to me (iow trying to read me) but mainly it was funny reading.

Whoops. I got you confused with Trivium:

Tommy and Lowell are both on pretty scummy places on the mislynch wagon, I town-read Lowell and besides he's VLA so Tommy is something I can get behind.

What I really don't like is that he plays like a wuss and hasn't voted since d1, most of his energy is used defensively but I don't feel like he's trying too hard to read the people he's talking to either. His logic is fine and I can't point out specific scummy posts but I don't see town-impetus/drive or anything to townread. Finds kush at fault (not an unreasonable thing to wagon someone for!); doesn't push or vote there, waiting for kush to get back but cmon do something! Most people would complain at kush not coming, be annoyed at their lack of productivity in this situation, probably push a secondary scumread in the meanwhile or just do something other than answer questions and appear completely unfazed.

Hmm. I had an hour on Saturday morning, and I was quite pleased with my progress there: I got a solid townread on Trivium. I know you're not so convinced about the slip, so I guess that holds less weight for you. Since then, I've only really had time to check in quickly and react to what others are saying. If I'd had longer, I probably would have done a profile on Transcend or Lowell. When you're under attack, there's always less time for analysis. But with several players yet to post in day 2, I think it's a bit early to vote someone because "do something". As I've said, I think our first order of the day is to analyse the hammer, and I reckon it's somewhat previous to vote before we've done that.

[Tommy]

I know that thats why Trivium probtown

Then I think we're on the same page. It wasn't a scum slip; it was a town slip.

[Tommy]

You don't scumread any of the actives then?

I'll have something to say about Transcend, but that's bound up in the hammer, so it'll have to wait too. Shouldn't be too much longer - I think we're getting near prod time for the players who haven't appeared. I find it hard to believe Scout is for real about Trivium, but I think it's most likely just because he's tunnelling.

Ugh and why does it feel like you're appeasing me here.

Confirmation bias!

I admitted to blind voting you as sheeping earlier and scumread you now from mostly gut and you don't have any problem with that?

If I'd known at the time that you'd voted without posting a reason, I would have pushed you for one. But I think it's often justified to say, 'I don't have a steer right now, so I'm sheeping this player I respect'. Town should act like a town, not a rabble of individualists.

Nothing you want to point out about it, nothing you want to ask? Like just assuming I'm wrong/misunderstood as opposed to malicious probably shouldn't happen if you're town unless you're really confident with your read on me.

Right now I'm getting fairly pro-town vibes off you.

[Tommy]

Kush, when you hammered, had you read this exchange?

Intent to hammer if jarjar doesn't for some reason, or if someone backs off.

wait for him to post before u do anything.

Yeah, of course jarjar. I'm so patient. Dunn knows just how patient I am.

[Tommy]

I'm here bud what do you wanna say about me.

I have a problem with this:

Are you saying Kush gets a pass because he may not have known Shotty was at L-1?

Sure, I'm willing to give him BOTD.

It's very clear that Kush knew. Trivium had been talking about his intent to hammer; Zach had said he was at L-1; a minute after the hammer Kush said he'd forgotten about claims. If he'd thought it wasn't a hammer, he wouldn't be talking about claims, he'd be saying 'That was a HAMMER?'

So I don't think there's any doubt to give him the benefit of, and you trying to do so makes me uneasy about you. As does your attempt to stifle my investigation of the hammer and your gradual shift towards saying you'd merely 'misinterpreted' me after others criticised your stance.

And it's very evident that Scout is real about Triviium. He genuinely thinks that he contradicted himself.

The part that I have a hard time accepting is that he claims to believe Trivium deliberately faked the townslip.

JarJar, can you please pull your points against Scout together into one handy guide, with quotes?

I swear if shotty is mafia inspector is mafia too.

[snip]
well its basically buying a town card, no?

Well, not a very long-lasting town card, right? I mean it vanishes as soon as Shotty flips.

I guess Dunn being NKed kinda points to a town scout. Like why kill a person w/ influence that will likely try to keep him out of the noose?

This is too WIFOM to be useful.

fwiw I'd compromise on a Lowell policy lynch if he doesn't give us something aside from prod-dodges.

There's no need to appeal to policy to lynch a lurker: lurking is scummy. But I'm willing to give Lowell a chance to contribute now that he's back from his second honeymoon.

Going to wait a bit longer for Kush to reply to my latest question. But if each round of questioning takes two days, this is going to be untenable. Kush's lurking is scummier than Lowell's.

[Tommy]

Okay, he's had 24 hours to answer my latest question: enough waiting. Here's my take on the day 1 hammer.

First, let's look at what would have happened if Kush had waited for Shotty to claim. After the claim, I would have unvoted, and I'm sure others would too - you don't lynch claimed town power on day 1. With the pressure off, Shotty would probably have started playing to his win condition again and put his vote somewhere more useful. Maybe we would then have lynched the rival wagon; more likely we would have ended up with someone else entirely in the week of play we had left for that day phase. So I don't buy this:

Um, but were he scum, he would have died anyway regardless and I doubt his perogative would be to give US information.

This is often true of a normal wagon, but it wasn't true here because of the self-vote. If Kush wanted to nail a townie, it was now or never.

Immediately after the hammer, he claimed he'd forgotten about claims. I think this was a lie. Kush posted three times during the three hours leading up to his hammer, so he was following the discussion. Several people were explicit during that period about the need to wait for a claim before hammering.

Since then, he's laid as low as he possibly can without actually getting replaced.

VOTE: Kush

[Tommy]

And technically what he stated was true. Except it misrepresents what happened.

hour 1 - No one discusses claims, Kush makes posts
hour 2 - No one discusses claims, Kush has no posts
hour 3 - People discuss claims, kush hammers

I'm happy with this summary. How did I misrepresent it? I think it shows that Kush was reading the conversation.

I did check that Kush had ZERO posts after claiming was mentioned.

Except the hammer, obviously.

I'm trying to piece together the case on JarJar.

Bacde didn't like JarJar's entrance and thought his Scout vote was opportunistic. He also appears to feel JarJar is misrepresenting him over whether he has reasons for his town read on Scout. I think he has something there.

Scout too feels he's been misrepresented by JarJar:

jarjar conveniently jumped too because ''his iso is fluffy there arent opinions'' while i can give you a list of my stuff with opinions like 168,188,226,243,249,296 and the seemingly infamous 301.

I'm more inclined to side with JarJar on this one. I've just been through the posts that Scout lists, and almost every opinion is hedged with 'or maybe not' - except for the null reads, which are thrust forth with great confidence...

Scout also reckons JarJar puts too much wait on the 'if X then Y' thing, which is absolutely right. I could not be more bored of that debate.

Lowell's JarJar suspicions start with a gut read and an inclination to sheep Bacde. Lowell also believes himself to be an 'easy target'. I would have thought that was more a point against Lowell than JarJar.

That's all I can find. Have I missed anything? It seems pretty weak.

[Tommy]

AlpacaAlpaca, you've been kind of focussed on Lowell recently. Can you give a read on Kush please?

[Tommy]

Tommy says that like his "push" on kush was because he wanted to get information from him and nothing more.

When did I say that?

[Tommy]

Like there's been all sorts of other candidates for a lynch today i.e. Lowell, jar, scout and he's been neutral about all those just to pursue a shitty lynch on Kush.

This is untrue. In 862, I said I didn't want to lynch Lowell yet; 938 has my thoughts on the JarJar wagon. A scout wagon I could maybe get behind, but I still think Kush is worse.

[Tommy]

I literally said I thought it was scummy before Kush reappeared. I don't know why you keep saying his hammer wasn't alignment indicative. If he's town, it makes little sense. If he's scum, it makes far more sense.

[Tommy]

Kush and myself both had a vote as well.

Why did u choose those 3?

This is good. And it's been interesting to watch him squirm around to find an answer to it.

Scout, what is your read on Kush?

[Tommy]

The lurking part of my case on Kush has become null now that he's actually flaked. He remains my top suspect, but it doesn't look good for getting others to join me before the replacement, so I'll give up for now.

Neither of the two current wagons is awful, and I'd also consider a Transcend lynch, but this is the best chance:

VOTE: inspectorscout

In his early reads list, all three scum reads were evasive and non-committal, but on day 1 I read him as town because of this:

And even by saying this, i fucked myself because scum now knows my line of thoughts, too, so they can adapt to what i said.

I think this is the kind of 'Aargh I'm going round and round' thought process that's hard for a newbie to fake as scum.

On the other hand, I can't believe his position on Trivium's townslip is genuine:

That thing about dunn might have been a genuine townslip, but after thinking a bit, it was just TOO obvious.

This is the most damning, I think:

i can give you a list of my stuff with opinions like 168,188,226,243,249,296 and the seemingly infamous 301.

If you go through that list, almost every opinion is either a null read or is qualified with 'I dunno, I could be wrong'. He's trying to seem like he has an opinion while actually committing himself to as little as possible.

More recently, I really like JarJar's question about why scout saw himself as a more likely lynch than other people who had a single vote on them - especially given that scout's vote was from himself. I don't think scout has given a credible answer to that.

[Tommy]

I also want your opinion on Tommy since he just made a junkvote on you.

How do you know it was a junkvote if you didn't read it?

[Tommy]

AlpacaAlpaca, why do you think Scout is town?

[Tommy]

Forgive me, but I think your votes are sorta opportunistic.

I forgive you. I deliberately took my vote off my biggest scum-read and stuck it on a wagon with momentum. That's what opportunistic scum would do. I also happen to think it was a pro-town play.

I legitimately thought I was replacing into a scum slot and was sad when my role pm said town

Bold move! I applaud you. If Transcend is also scum, then the love fest is equally brazen. I kind of hope so, because it would be a spectacular set of moves to discuss after the game.

This doesn't follow, though:

tommy looks like scum to me. Vote on my slot looks like an excuse to avoid engagement

You've just said you read Kush as scum. How then can my Kush vote look like an excuse to avoid engagement? And then this:

so do his posts tbh. (Though his posts seem towny on the surface, this doesn't mean much)

Can you give an example of a post that seems towny on the surface, but beneath the surface looks like an excuse to avoid engagement?

Let's have another pop at this slot.

VOTE: Infinity

Bacde, fancy a bandwagon? AlpacaAlpaca, chance to vindicate yourself? JarJar, I assume you still want Scout dead more than Infinity's slot?

And I don't like how Tommy seemed to be gone for most of these conversations, just slipping by at the most opportune points.

Ask me anything and I'll comment or explain as best I can. You're my top town-read, so I will be accommodating.

[Tommy]

Yeah, it was the start of today. So you going to join me?

[Tommy]

@tommy

Hey scout.

kush is null since we saw absolutely nothing coming from him, except his hammer which was pretty much NAI.

What gives you the idea that the hammer was NAI? Did Transcend feed it to you? Did you check why Transcend said that? It was based on the idea that Kush maybe didn't know Shotty was at L-1. Kush definitely knew Shotty was at L-1 - he said so himself. So where does that get us with the NAI thing?

Thecase about me that came with a vote was already made before. Exactly that. Couldve been by you, im on phone so im not going to look through everything to find it.

Yeah, it was me. It was a summary of the notes I had on you.

Why use that now?

Because my Kush bandwagon was looking a bit poor. It only had me on it, and he was getting replaced.

[Tommy]

Just found this from Transcend:

by giving him botd i meant that he forgot about asking for claims. he acknowledged that he was at l-1.

It's a lie. Look:

Are you saying Kush gets a pass because he may not have known Shotty was at L-1?

Sure, I'm willing to give him BOTD.

[Tommy]

Isn't that him explaining that when he said BOTD it was referring to the claim part, and not the L-1 part?

Yes it is. And 704 proves it's a lie.

Also I disagree that it was pro-town cause scout was obviously feeling the pressure already

It wasn't for pressure. I was trying to kill him.

You're not being proactive, you're not scumhunting, you're not pushing for lynches, you're just commenting on what you see and asking question which don't seem to be getting anywhere.

I am scum-hunting: my scum reads right now are you, inspectorscout, Transcend and AlpacaAlpaca; my town reads are Trivium and Zach. I am pushing for your lynch. Not getting anywhere, I'll give you that. But that kind of reassures me: it's harder to lynch scum than to lynch town.

Talking of which, has anyone noticed how my 'opportunistic' push on Kush after he quick-hammered our bulletproof led to exactly no votes besides mine? Do we not think that if Kush was town, some other opportunistic types might have joined in?

Loving the 'forest' schtick. Dude, you should have just gone with a single, confident 'no'. The vanilla PM was in Creature's first post.

[Tommy]

Son of a bitch. I DIDN'T EVEN NOTICE THAT. Was hoping to catch dude slipping

Well, he was pretty cagey about it.

[Tommy]

I'm sorry infinity we can't be power town anymore. Zach made a solid point about your contradiction.

What? That was MY really solid point! You're saying I've been making good posts recently but you totally haven't read them. This is wholly so you can wagon the guy who was your best buddy five minutes ago.

Okay, forget about scout and Alpaca for today. Either Transcend or Infinity will do. No one else will do.

It wasn't for pressure. I was trying to kill him.

Don't you think it's a bit early for that

I didn't. Now I'm glad it didn't happen because this is so much better.

It's easy to look town if you don't engage with people, that's why tommy is doing it

I really don't get this thing you keep pushing. What does engagement look like? How is it different from what I'm doing right now?

[Tommy]

Infinity, if you're parking your vote on Trivium then you will need to account for:

(A) his townslip
(B) the rapid changes of heart in his first 5 posts of day 2, all within about five minutes

[Tommy]

You contradict yourself and your slot quick-hammered someone who was self-voting.

[Tommy]

Yesterday's scum reads that I want to take another look at: Transcend, AlpacaAlpaca, InspectorScout. Planning to do some ISOs and vote count analysis. I should also check Rask's ISO and confirm JarJar's theory. Sorry for the cruft: I'm just putting this stuff here so I'll remember it.

I'll look at bacde as well. That slot's been under the radar for me.

Trivium, can you summarise the case against JarJar?

[Tommy]

WTF THAT RASK KILL

Uh huh.

[Tommy]

Do you believe my surprise was fabricated?

I believe you made a deliberate decision to post it.

[Tommy]

Hmm? Why would those three be worth ISO'ing? Did you take the rask thing into account?

AlpacaAlpaca and Scout: mainly for their equivocation if I remember right. Transcend: I think it was mostly his interaction with Infinity. Maybe that's affected by Infinity's flip though. I've got to look again.

What Rask thing?

[Tommy]

Scout, can you remind me why you're voting for me?

[Tommy]

Zach: yes, I'm going to note it.

Scout: what did you mean when you said I didn't give clear reads? Did you mean I didn't give reads on enough of the players?

[Tommy]

That's interesting. I dismissed that case before because he hadn't had long enough. Maybe there's enough to examine now. I'll add him to the list.

[Tommy]

All wagons that reached L-2 or higher so far:

[7]

drmyshottyizsik

-

Dunnstral

, AlpacaAlpaca,

Tommy

,

Raskolnikov

, Lowell,

drmyshottyizsik

,

nnn_thekushmountains

[3] JarJarDrinks - Bacde, Transcend, inspectorscout
[2] inspectorscout - JarJarDrinks, Zachstralkita
Not voting (1): Trivium

[3] Lowell - JarJarDrinks,

Raskolnikov

, AlpacaAlpaca
[4] JarJarDrinks - Bacde, Transcend, inspectorscout, Lowell
[2] inspectorscout - Zachstralkita, Trivium
Not voting (2):

Tommy

,

nnn_thekushmountains

[5] Lowell - JarJarDrinks,

Raskolnikov

, AlpacaAlpaca, Trivium, Zachstralkita
[1]

nnn_thekushmountains

-

Tommy

[2] AlpacaAlpaca - Lowell, Transcend
[1] JarJarDrinks - Bacde
[1] inspectorscout - inspectorscout
Not voting (1):

nnn_thekushmountains

[1]

Tommy

- inspectorscout
[6]

Infinity 324

- Tommy, Zachstralkita, AlpacaAlpaca, Transcend, Trivium, JarJarDrinks
[3] AlpacaAlpaca - Lowell, Bacde,

Raskolnikov

[1] Trivium - Infinity 324

Alpaca, Lowell and I don't look good in the first one. In the other three, either Alpaca is voting for Lowell or Lowell is voting for Alpaca. Never comes to a lynch. Alpaca posts while Lowell is at L-1 and doesn't unvote, but a quickhammer was unlikely at that point.

[Tommy]

That was not a nk i was expecting.

Uh-huh.

[Tommy]

Will post more when home from work.

Be sure to include reasons for your vote.

[Tommy]

Why not mention you only didn't vote when the wagon was on jarjar?

Didn't have anything to say about it. I thought the JarJar wagon was weak. The Shotty and Infinity wagons were both good. Just noticed I forgot to make myself white on the last wagon though - sorry about that.

[Tommy]

Think I mentioned that myself.

[Tommy]

@Tommy who do u think was scum on that wagon? only alpaca?

Maybe only Alpaca. Maybe Alpaca and Transcend.

[Tommy]

Lowell analysis

Everything in this is good:

Done.

page 12, blue yoshi trying to pocket triv, triv not buying it
page 13, shotty obsesses over scumtells, doesn't like votes on him
page 15, tommy struggles to contribute, bacde arrives, does better
page 17, fading townread on transcend, guy looks twitchy, equivocal on votes
page 20, bacde tangles with jarjar, is town
page 22, alpaca enters w/ read list (meh), shotty debates mafia theory (meh)
page 23, big fan of transcend's 573

vote stands on

shotty

. he's tame as hell in ways I don't like

fos alpaca

I agree with transcend that his "reads list" post was contrived garbage. this is the post lurker-scum make to look like they're paying attention ever few pages. And let me tell you, I know a thing or two about lurkerscum.

fos jarjar

I'm sheeping bacde on this. Hard to put my finger on what's wrong with him, but something's just missing. Is ISO is like watching paint dry.

Strongest townreads:

bacde

, who from his entry has been clear and aggressive in ways I like.

dunn

, though I'm fading slightly on this one. I want to believe in the player who earned townpoints for the first dozen pages or so and not the one who has coasted since then.

transcend

, up and down on him, but I like his calling out alpaca's junkposts.

This was the first time he gave an opinion of Scout or JarJar:

I'm okay with both lead wagons. Which even as I write it sounds scummy, but here we are. VOTE: jarjar who seems more flailing of the two.

Yeah, it does sound pretty bad. And then he never gives any reasons for this scum-read until challenged directly, at which point he comes out with this:

That's a great question which I can't really answer. Somehow I've got it in my mind that you are, though. Am I being played or what?

Zach pushes him again, and he offers "It's a gut read."

Next he makes a decent case on Alpaca. I won't quote it here because it's long, but you can find it here.

I think this gives an insight into his playstyle:

Might I add, alpaca saying, of me, that "he doesn't seem too concerned with acting pro town," and calling that a

negative

, says much more about him than me.

When he's playing badly, it's semi-deliberate. He wants to give the impression that he doesn't care.

Don't like this:

Likewise, I'm getting a scumvibe from triv.

He follows it with some explanation, but doesn't address Trivium's town-slip, which I think is all you really need to read Trivium.

Overall, I think his time on the JarJar wagon looks bad, and that's the main issue with Lowell. He's an all right lynch candidate, but I hope I'll find better when I look into the others.

[Tommy]

Transcend, you haven't actually voted yet. Bold your vote and defend it, or take it back. Don't ask others to sheep you without giving a case.

[Tommy]

Alpaca analysis

I agree that Alpaca's first reads list is scummy. There's one opinion buried in there: a town-read on Dunnstral. The rest is hedged about with caveats.

I also agree with Lowell that this is bad:

Oh and I forgot
VOTE: Drmyshottyizsik
No point in saying he is the scummiest here than not vote him

Like he'd kind of trapped himself into committing to something.

Of his first ten posts, three have content and seven are fluff. This was good though, about drmyshottizsik:

@Scout I am thinking he is scum because he has stated that posting opinions D1 is actually more beneficial to scum than other players and because of that he won't be posting his thoughts until D2

This is horrible:

In my opinion I am currently scum reading Kush since as far as I can tell he is either scum or impulsive town, and I wouldn't want either in the endgame.

Says he's scum reading him, but then says 'either scum or town' in the same sentence. Unnecessarily qualified with 'In my opinion'. Worst of all, lumps impulsive town together with scum. The point is to discern these. Yeuch.

Here's Alpaca trying to help himself to some town cred after I pointed out Trivium's slip:

The first time I read the psot I missed it but than got confused and I wondered if anyone had died since I didn't see anything so I went back over his post actually reading it all than I noticed it.

Lowell vote (soon after two other Lowell votes) supported by an extremely weak case.

Here's that let's-kill-weak-town-players issue again:

Whether or not this is scummy it is at the very least anti town and I wouldn't want him in a lylo situation with this kind of mindset going on.

He's more interested in killing Kush than scum-hunting. He expresses this view a third time in post 1113. The fact that he keeps repeating it after taking flak for it makes it less of a scum-tell.

By post 964, he's gathered a bit more substance for his Lowell case.

Post 1137 defends Scout.

This is good, talking to Infinity:

So you think that he is too smart to hop on every wagon, but you townread Transcend for doing it, and you still think Triv is playing dumb?

This is awful:

I have put infinity on hold for now since I think the slot is scummy all the way back to the Kush hammer but I want to give him some more time to see what happens.

If Alpaca is scum, then I can see what he means by "to see what happens": he wants the wagon to go through but he doesn't want to get his hands dirty. If Alpaca is town, I literally have no idea what motivated him to say this. Then twelve posts later he puts Infinity at L-1.

VOTE: AlpacaAlpaca

[Tommy]

I think that's a weird dilemma. Infinity was vanilla. He didn't know any more than you.

[Tommy]

Just ISOd you and I can't find it. Can you link it again?

[Tommy]

I had read it, but I'd forgotten much of it. It's good.

[Tommy]

Yes.

VOTE: bacde

[Tommy]

It's not a naked vote. I'm sheeping Jar Jar. If bacde knows who Rask targeted, and Rask is dead, the most likely thing is that bacde killed Rask.

[Tommy]

I'm on my phone but Zach if you don't think it was a soft tou also have to explain that second post where he was like 'could be, but that goes against my guarantee'. Everyone who DOES think it was a soft, ask yourselves why Rask is dead. How did he attract the scum kill? Why isn't Zach dead when everyone thought he was town? I know I know, chockfull of WIFOM. But think about a Zach-bacde scum possibility before you sheep Zach today. I think JarJar hit gold here, and I've got a pretty firm JarJar town read as a result.

[Tommy]

I mean, I take that last point. He's been so town. But I would have expected him to react to this the way I did, so I'm not so sure now. I think the most important thing is to kill bacde. Not pressure him for a claim. Kill him.

[Tommy]

What do you mean I haven't made a case? The case is that bacde claims to know who Rask targeted, and Rask is dead, so most likely bacde killed Rask. I have literally already explained this.

Choose a side everyone. Join Transcend and Zach or join me and JarJar.

[Tommy]

you have DUMPED those pushes to pursue a push on someone you have no reason to fos other than a dead pr which might not have even been his doing.

Might not have been. But probably was. I mean what are the chances that town Bacde and a scum investigator both decided to look into Rask?

take a look at day 2 and your push on nnn, which didn't work so you went to scout, and that didn't work either, then you went to me, obviously that didn't work.

That's not how I remember it. It's true that I was on nnn and that it didn't work at first. I think that was largely because he flaked and had to be replaced. I switched to Scout because I felt my vote would do more good there than on an empty slot. When Infinity arrived and started being scummy I went back to the nnn slot that I'd started on. I scumread you but I don't think I voted you. So actually my behaviour was pretty consistent. Anyway, I thought you said that it was pro-town to hop between bandwagons the whole time like you do?

[Tommy]

I'm vanilla.

I think this wagon is kind of hysterical. What's the case on me? Is it that thing JarJar said that about being too sure of my vote? I've already explained twice why I'm so keen on it. I think it's surprising that no one agrees with me. I think it might be partly because people are sheeping Zach.

[Tommy]

Pretty sure JarJar's town. Don't mind the Alpaca wagon. But we still have ten days, so it's not compromise time yet.

[Tommy]

Hooray! Well played Transcend. Honourable mention for JarJar.

I think I played well until day 3, then the wheels came off pretty quickly. Seriously misjudged how town would react to JarJar's suggestion about Bacde.

Shame about Shotty. No one wants to win like that.

I'm happy for the scum chat to be public.

[Tommy]

Rask, the reason we killed you N2 instead of N1 is that we role-copped you first.

[Tommy]

Creature, thanks for modding. You did a great job.

And thanks everyone for the game. I really enjoyed it.

[Tommy]

This was full of win:

In other words, I think I correctly identified that Rask was killed cause scum knew he was a PR and Tommy felt like he had no choice but to bus.

He's just too certain that's what happened.