Mini 1800 - Game Over


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Post Post #1100 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:06 pm

Post by Dierfire »

EDIT: Whole thing goes in a spoiler while I try to see whether I just wasted several hours

Spoiler: Whole Thing
I'm revisiting my read on Saru first, since this is essentially a "gut read" from an argument with Persivul many pages ago.

The first thing I see is that Saru enters with lists of reads in tiers (, ), but these never return. This raises my suspicion, because I think that it suggests emulation of a thought process not organic to Saru. I looked for previous games and found nothing useful, sadly (I wandered through the ScoreHero forum from his Wiki page and found nothing, I found a game by Saru786 on MafiaHero in which said player died without posting, and then I gave up because I felt that the time delay would make it difficult to draw meaningful conclusions).

At the time of the extended argument with Persivul over "contradictions" (between and or so) I was reading Saru as Town for nebulous reasons. On further review I attribute this to tone; Saru maintained a focus on certain things (whether Persivul answers his questions, mostly) that I interpreted as aggressive and therefore more likely to come from a Town player. I no longer endorse that position; Persivul was one of the leading wagons at the time, so I could easily see the narrow focus (at times divorced from identifying motivations behind actions) as representing a desire to maintain position on a wagon. However, Saru leaves the wagon in to join the wagon on Kappy, which reached L-2 with that vote. This was not a vote from nowhere (Saru expressed suspicion of Kappy in ), and was not closely preceded by any other changes in votes, so I don't attribute that move to any nefarious motivation.

He agreed with cases presented against karnos ( and on), which I also thought were reasonable.

At some point he decides that Persivul was providing good content (), which is suspicious to me because the most recent read on Persivul prior to this () was Null, and I don't see anything from Persivul between the two that seemed so important to reading him (or any indication from Saru that he is reconsidering something from earlier). He later () states that he removed his vote after MechaGoomba cleared up a misunderstanding () but does not indicate why is reading Persivul as Town.

I've no issue with Saru taking time to decide whether to vote for karnos when karnos is at L-1 (), though I don't understand what thought process might lead to lynching karnos if replacement players read him as Town ().

Advocating a policy lynch on JohnnyFarrar (, ) looks fine to me; I can't think of a reason why a Mafia player needs to cast a vote there with such weak reasoning (JohnnyFarrar was the only wagon and was likely to be lynched without assistance). There's a possible exception if the wagon was entirely composed of Town players, in which case the Mafia may have collectively decided that votes would eventually be needed there.

I am suspicious of the bouncing read on qubixes (suspicious of the vote on JohnnyFarrar in and , Town in , casting a vote for him in with renewed suspicion of the vote on JohnnyFarrar in , qubixes is "a good lynch candidate" in and obviously Mafia in , , and but misguided Town in ). I'm not really inclined to accept the wave of the hand offered in ; acknowledging the changing read does not explain it. What was qubixes doing in those posts that was swinging the read so wildly?

In general I don't find that Saru appears to be attempting to discern alignments. I see few questions or directed interactions with other players that would indicate a proactive attempt to solve the game; rather, Saru seems to be reactive in all reads. This is potentially an explanation for some of those things that didn't display obvious nefarious motivation; these moves would support a reactive, coasting style.

I partially reviewed qubixes and Persivul in order to solidify my read here. I am reassured in some things that I found and am moving them to lower priority for reading.
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Post Post #1101 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:10 pm

Post by Dierfire »

No, we're still on.

@Saru


We've established that you feel that the case qubixes presented is weak. What has he said that changes your read so wildly between "weak argument from nefarious Mafia" and "weak argument from misguided Town" (preferably with examples)?
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Post Post #1102 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:25 pm

Post by karnos »

Noticed something in my re-read, something that stood out and is a bit more interesting to me than the constant noise from Mathblade.

Masquerade has been someone I have avoided looking at too closely. Admittedly, I thought he might be scum in the same way I thought Wingback might be scum, but I'd just be reiterating the same argument, scum trying to buddy up to town pre-flip to build cred. At the time when I was at L-2 to L-1, I felt my situation was pretty delicate, and I didn't want to kick the hornets nest so to speak, and cause him to turn on me and hammer me before I could claim and have some discussion. (I came out against Wingback as potential scum, but I almost immediately regret that decision because I realized if he was indeed scum he could quickly counter my argument by simply lynching me. ) This was compounded with the fact that it was just a thought of a possibility, not a serious feeling that he was scum, and I wanted to remain focused on what I thought was the most obvious scum in the game at the time, Mathblade.

The recent trend of multiple huge wall posts every day by Mathblade distracted me for a time, and didn't even think about bringing Masquerades buddying as a scum tell, but upon my last re-read I noticed something odd about this post:
In post 987, Masquerade wrote: Only experience I have with him is a multiball where we were on opposing scumteams. My buddy was lynched D1, I killed Karnos' buddy N1, town lynched me D2, and then I think they lynched Karnos D4. So I wouldn't call him a bad player, but I don't think he'll be making very complex plans.
The game in question:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=975

I wasn't lynched D4. Certainly not trying to brag, really it came down to a coin-flip decision, but I went to endgame and won as scum. Why is Masquerade downplaying my scum game? I just can't fathom a reason. Yet he was there, posting in the game thread after it was all over, I just don't see how him being unaware that the game ended with a scum win.

Masquerade, whats your deal?

VOTE: Masquerade
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Post Post #1103 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:30 pm

Post by karnos »

To be clear, Mathblade is still scum. I'll revote him upon request. What I noticed from masquerade demands a vote.
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Post Post #1104 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:42 pm

Post by Saru »

In post 1100, Dierfire wrote:The first thing I see is that Saru enters with lists of reads in tiers (, ), but these never return. This raises my suspicion, because I think that it suggests emulation of a thought process not organic to Saru. I looked for previous games and found nothing useful, sadly (I wandered through the ScoreHero forum from his Wiki page and found nothing, I found a game by Saru786 on MafiaHero in which said player died without posting, and then I gave up because I felt that the time delay would make it difficult to draw meaningful conclusions).

I would not try to look at ScoreHero or MafiaHero to understand my thought process as it stands today. Those games were from something like 5 years ago, and most of how I view things and people in a game of mafia have changed drastically since then. I don't actively try to play to any kind of meta shown in those games, mostly given that I don't even remember how I played in those games anyways, save for maybe one.


At the time of the extended argument with Persivul over "contradictions" (between and or so) I was reading Saru as Town for nebulous reasons. On further review I attribute this to tone; Saru maintained a focus on certain things (whether Persivul answers his questions, mostly) that I interpreted as aggressive and therefore more likely to come from a Town player. I no longer endorse that position; Persivul was one of the leading wagons at the time, so I could easily see the narrow focus (at times divorced from identifying motivations behind actions) as representing a desire to maintain position on a wagon. However, Saru leaves the wagon in to join the wagon on Kappy, which reached L-2 with that vote. This was not a vote from nowhere (Saru expressed suspicion of Kappy in ), and was not closely preceded by any other changes in votes, so I don't attribute that move to any nefarious motivation.

Yes, Persivul had some votes on him at the time, and I felt I could push him on something to see how he would react. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "maintain position" on a wagon. Do you mean I felt forced to give reasons why I was voting a wagon?


He agreed with cases presented against karnos ( and on), which I also thought were reasonable.

At some point he decides that Persivul was providing good content (), which is suspicious to me because the most recent read on Persivul prior to this () was Null, and I don't see anything from Persivul between the two that seemed so important to reading him (or any indication from Saru that he is reconsidering something from earlier). He later () states that he removed his vote after MechaGoomba cleared up a misunderstanding () but does not indicate why is reading Persivul as Town.

Good content doesn't always equal town. I never read Persivul as town? Johnny asked me who I felt a town leader could be. Scum can easily find themselves becoming a town leader through being solid in play and hard to argue against. While I didn't think(and don't think) that Persivul is scum, I felt that he could make a good town leader just by his posting early on in the game.


I've no issue with Saru taking time to decide whether to vote for karnos when karnos is at L-1 (), though I don't understand what thought process might lead to lynching karnos if replacement players read him as Town ().

This needs some context. I said that I was neutral on Karnos. Therefore, to help me rid of that neutral read, I felt like a claim would help with that, seeing as that is where he was headed anyways. This is why I say I don't mind giving intent if the replacements read Karnos as town because then they obviously wouldn't vote for him, which means I would have to, to get him to L-1. However, since I was neutral, I felt it made more sense for the replacements to put him at L-1 if they found him scummy. Unfortunately, due to the nature of his claim, I'm still neutral as Neapolitan can be either a town or scum role, but some have pointed out that it's more commonly scum. But I don't really see any proof of that, so I don't really buy it at the moment. His choice of Persivul as the person to check is what I expected him to do. Persivul's point #3 in is pretty much what I was thinking too.


Advocating a policy lynch on JohnnyFarrar (, ) looks fine to me; I can't think of a reason why a Mafia player needs to cast a vote there with such weak reasoning (JohnnyFarrar was the only wagon and was likely to be lynched without assistance). There's a possible exception if the wagon was entirely composed of Town players, in which case the Mafia may have collectively decided that votes would eventually be needed there.

Just curious, do you think that the Johnny wagon was all town up until my policy vote on him? Because your would suggest that you do. So I'm assuming you think the exception is what actually happened here.


I am suspicious of the bouncing read on qubixes (suspicious of the vote on JohnnyFarrar in and , Town in , casting a vote for him in with renewed suspicion of the vote on JohnnyFarrar in , qubixes is "a good lynch candidate" in and obviously Mafia in , , and but misguided Town in ). I'm not really inclined to accept the wave of the hand offered in ; acknowledging the changing read does not explain it. What was qubixes doing in those posts that was swinging the read so wildly?

The general reason for my read changing heavily on Qubixes was because of his vote on me right at the start of D2, which set off my scum read of him. I found it extremely odd that he would he vote me at the start given that he said he found you to be a much more viable lynch at the end of D1. The deadline can't be his excuse because he admits that it's not just the deadline that is keeping him from voting me, but also because he feels he can't lynch me regardless because I'm so town read. So what was it about N1 that all of sudden made me so lynch-able? Nothing that I see suggests that all of sudden I've become the scummiest candidate for the majority of people. Why do you think I suggest that he was just randomly voting me in , when it seemed clear that by his own thought process, he should have been voting you at that time. Everything from to is me scum reading him. Although, even through all that, my gut said misguided townie but my brain said scum. After looking back on it all starting from the end of D1, I decided to go with my gut since it's just subconscious logic. I feel that someone like qubixes, if he were scum, wouldn't really play the way he has towards me. I feel like his reaction to me calling his Johnny vote scummy was genuine town frustration. Maybe he felt like he was being singled out of the wagon and found that unfair. That's what I'm starting to think. Me calling him "obvious mafia" was aggression, similar to what I did with Persivul in .


In general I don't find that Saru appears to be attempting to discern alignments. I see few questions or directed interactions with other players that would indicate a proactive attempt to solve the game; rather, Saru seems to be reactive in all reads. This is potentially an explanation for some of those things that didn't display obvious nefarious motivation; these moves would support a reactive, coasting style.

I think early on I was trying to discern alignments. It is true that more in the middle and end of D1, I played more reactive. But I think my explanation in explains as to why. It sounds like what you're really trying to ask me is who my scum reads are at the moment, which I'll provide in a later post after I look over some ISOs of certain players. The back and forth between qubixes and I kept me distracted.


I partially reviewed qubixes and Persivul in order to solidify my read here. I am reassured in some things that I found and am moving them to lower priority for reading.

Are your reads on them the same as they were in , or was that just in relation to the Johnny wagon? Would like to know where you stand on the people you're reading up on.
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Post Post #1105 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:36 pm

Post by Saru »

In post 1101, Dierfire wrote:
@Saru


We've established that you feel that the case qubixes presented is weak. What has he said that changes your read so wildly between "weak argument from nefarious Mafia" and "weak argument from misguided Town" (preferably with examples)?
Actually it was more like misguided town -> silly scum -> misguided town. From his reaction to my post suspecting his Johnny vote up to the end of D1, I felt like misguided town and said so. Most of D2 up until now I felt silly scum. But now, as explained in , I feel misguided town. Reasoning and examples can be found in previous posts.
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Post Post #1106 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:08 pm

Post by MathBlade »

Still rereading it is a bit of a slog with all the walls to get through. Going to respond to recent posts and then get back to that tomorrow after work.
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Post Post #1107 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:26 pm

Post by GreyICE »

Titus replaces Kappy! Thank you Titus! Another great replacement
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Post Post #1108 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:29 pm

Post by Titus »

Oh wall game.

Hi everyone.
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Post Post #1109 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:54 pm

Post by MathBlade »

@Mecha. --
In post 1067, Masquerade wrote:
In post 1057, MathBlade wrote:
In post 979, Masquerade wrote:Actually, I want to

VOTE: Magna

If Wingback was a threat to anyone, it was Magna.
Off topic -- What happened to this huh? Ever gonna fucking explain? I can understand misplaced shade on me based on Wingback's post but where do you get Magna?
Why, thanks for asking! Wingbacks iso. Check it.
If I had to pick one post Mecha this would be it. I have reread Wingback's ISO more times than I can count trying to find where and why Masquerade votes Magna here. The biggest thing they left was Dierfire was scum. Yes, they provided cases but why would Masquerade say just check Wingback's ISO. Something seems fishy that they are lazy when they vote me but then never give an argument. They did the same thing with Magna. Yet they give reasons on Quibixes?

Something seems horribly off there. Why are they only making efforts on explaining reads about certain players?

For Quibixes it would be 175 -- It feels fake. Especially the words "now that I think about it". It invalidates everything they said in the prior part of the post as they were not thinking about it. The juxtaposition/word choice feels like some strategic move here. If Karnos is town (which is a really difficult pill to swallow) then I would go over their entire ISO again looking for things that give that same strategic vibe.

At the same time I don't see them as scum together. Masquerade v Quibixes (for the short time it was) felt wrong and I never understood why Masquerade moved their vote. Gut read would be you're probably right on the apathetic town read.

Furthermore I can see a Masquerade Magna team more so than Quibixes Magna. I think Magna is doing a delayed OMGUS here. Maybe Firebringer's slot in the mix. I really don't like how Firebringer is coasting here. Their recent post is they could vote Magna for voting their town read. Why aren't they posting something resembling an argument?

I still think Dierfire is sketchy but nowhere near as sketchy as Wingback's ISO makes them out to be. I also think Karnos is scum but you asked me not to mention Karnos.

My would lynch pool is {Magna, Masquerade, Firebringer, Quibixes, Titus/Kappy slot (for inactivity depending upon Titus's play this may change)}
Sketchy and needs lots of pokes but bigger fish to poke {Dierfire}
Town reads are {Mecha, Saru, Persivul}

My shut the fuck up about pile is {Karnos}

VOTE: MagnaOfIllusions

More on this in a bit.
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Post Post #1110 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:06 pm

Post by Titus »

*skips wall*

*sees reads list at the end*

But I wanna talk about him? He had a wagon on him.
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Post Post #1111 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:08 pm

Post by MathBlade »

In post 1089, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
In post 1014, MathBlade wrote:For example I am willing to bet we are going to start seeing a major shift of doomed as fuck scum on the site claim some kind of investigative and role blocked because of "site meta".
Do you think doomed scum don’t claim Investigative roles looking to draw counter-claims already? Frankly this argument is pretty moronic when it is a very common practice.
In post 1015, MathBlade wrote:1) No. It doesn't. You always vote a null read or a scum read never a town one.
Bad argument. Town can certainly be wrong about their Town reads. Happens all the damn time. Situationally voting a Town-read who is not Mod Confirmed in some way to prevent a No Lynch is Pro-Town play regardless of the result. Yet you are peddling that it should never be done.
In post 1020, MathBlade wrote:...Are you really pressuring me because I had the balls to ask questions and try to read the slot that interacted. Reads evolve. I was suspecting Quibixes for the end of day shift as evidenced by the posts at the end of the day. I thought more pressure needed to be applied while the conversation was going. Then with Karnos's results coming out I wanted to call attention to what I think is absolute bullshit. If I claimed Flying Spaghetti Monster with the ability to wrap all scum in a post restriction that every post they must end with I am scum and said "OMG I am so important please jailkeep/roleblock/protect me" and then it would be suspicious if no one had such a post restriction. Replace Flying Spaghetti Monster with "Neopolitan" and post restriction with results.

I do not have enough votes for all of my scum reads. Therefore I poke and push and prod. I attempt to read people.
Of course reads evolve. Where did I say they didn’t? I asked you to express what your scum-reads were today. Instead of actually answering the question we get this mini rant about the FSM and other non-sensical points that doesn’t actually answer the question.

I’ve looked back on your posts today. You’ve had 36. The only ones that address Quib directly (aka in a scum-hunting manner) are , , , and . And a read over those posts doesn’t show someone digging into a potential scum read with probing questions. Those are light, cursory posts.

I encourage everyone to read Math’s Day 2 ISO and decide if you believe Math is “poking, pushing and prodding” Quib. I don’t see sign of scum-hunting there.

VOTE: Math
In post 1093, karnos wrote:
In post 1088, MagnaofIllusion wrote: Why is someone being Jailed a part of this reasoning? Jailkeepers don’t prevent investigation roles from working on their targets. A Rolestopper? Sure that makes sense. But Jailkeeper doesn’t.
Huh. Apparently I was playing the role in a nonstandard way at the previous site I played on, I never realized before now that you can still investigate someone "in jail".

My job was killing me today, haven't had any time to post. I did try to read the thread throughout the day when I had breaks, but I didn't see much to comment on at first glance. MathBlade is still making a lot of noise, nothing new there.

Kappy's been MIA for the last two days, due for a prod I think?

I have a 2-year-old asking me questions about paw patrol every 5 minutes so I can't really focus enough to re-read thoroughly now, I'll try to make some more notable contribution later tonight.
1089 is what really rubs me the wrong way. Jail keepers are a roleblock + kill protect anyone inside them. Anyone outside them is fair game. Supposing a town Karnos world like I have been asked to do (sigh) then it is quite possible a town jail keeper who scum read Karnos could have done that as a test to see if Karnos made something up. In fact if Karnos is town this is what I would bank on having happened. I don't know why such a seemingly experienced player would assume that jail keeper is impossible.
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Post Post #1112 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:09 pm

Post by MathBlade »

In post 1110, Titus wrote:*skips wall*

*sees reads list at the end*

But I wanna talk about him? He had a wagon on him.
Then let's talk about whoever "him" is. I am guessing you mean Magna?
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Post Post #1113 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:11 pm

Post by Titus »

In post 1112, MathBlade wrote:
In post 1110, Titus wrote:*skips wall*

*sees reads list at the end*

But I wanna talk about him? He had a wagon on him.
Then let's talk about whoever "him" is. I am guessing you mean Magna?
Nope Karnos.
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Post Post #1114 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:13 pm

Post by Titus »

So skimmed?

Karnos claimed jailed. Why?
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Post Post #1115 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:18 pm

Post by MathBlade »

The short version is Karnos is a claimed Neopolitan D1. They did lots of scummy shit that preclaim then everyone hopped off of the Karnos wagon and a lurker got lynched. They claimed no results today and have posted nothing useful. Yet this makes them town/not lynching today for almost everyone. It is so damn frustrating that people are picking information over the analysis of the slot. And I am trying not to reopen this can of worms. Karnos as much as I think they should be won't be lynched today.

Pedit: Karnos didn't claim jailed. They claimed no results.
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Post Post #1116 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:24 pm

Post by MathBlade »

And you're asking me why Karnos did something? How the fuck would I know?
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Post Post #1117 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:30 pm

Post by Titus »

Yeah, why would we fish a Neopolitan for results?

The goal of a Neopolitan is to verify claims (if let to investigate). Randomly having him out his claims anyway is just bad.

It's a rock in a hard place and wifom on what to do there. If town, we can almost dual lynch (neo is not present in high pr setups), but that requires trusting Karnos and keeping him alive.
I am willing to roll for a day and see where it goes
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Post Post #1118 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:33 pm

Post by MathBlade »

Then we are back in I shut up about my Karnos read for the good of the thread.

I am going to bed as I have work in the morning.
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Post Post #1119 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:41 pm

Post by Titus »

In post 325, GreyICE wrote:
Official Vote Count


Persivul
(4): Sickofit1138, ShadyHood, Saru, karnos
Kappy
(4): Chumba, Persivul, Dierfire, MechaGoomba
Sickofit1138
(3): Snork, species, Kappy
karnos
(2): Mizzytastic, qubixes

Not Voting
(0):
None.


With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline
: (expired on 2016-06-22 15:59:49)

Chumba is being replaced

Sorry for the lack of vote counts, work has been kicking my ass. Hopefully fixed.
I would be VERY surprised if all of these were town.
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Post Post #1120 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:42 pm

Post by Titus »

VOTE: Persivul
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Post Post #1121 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:47 pm

Post by Titus »

In post 1118, MathBlade wrote:Then we are back in I shut up about my Karnos read for the good of the thread.

I am going to bed as I have work in the morning.
P.s. This might be scum math. I have never seen her concerned about thread health before.
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Post Post #1122 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:57 pm

Post by Titus »

In post 33, qubixes wrote:
In post 30, Kappy wrote:VOTE: Chumba
For not realizing I changed my vote.
There were two people that didn't realize your vote
before
that. Why change your vote now?
This is town.
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Post Post #1123 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:00 pm

Post by Titus »

In post 69, Persivul wrote:
In post 68, Chumba wrote:
In post 66, Chumba wrote:I actually read that as he was ok with a wagon happening.
What, are you saying that he didn't really think a wagon was happening, but just had the thought that,
hey, if a wagon
were
happening, I'd be OK with that...
?
If this semantics are the level of discourse, I see why mass sub out
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Post Post #1124 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:04 pm

Post by Titus »

In post 117, karnos wrote:After a full review of the thread, I've gotta re-vote my RVS target:

VOTE: Dierfire

Stop hiding.

If I posted my reads list, it would just be pretty damn similar to everyone else. I think it's obvious chumba is acting extremely pro-town, sickofit and kappy acting a little silly and scummy, and just about everyone else falls in between. Hard to have a strong read on anyone at this point in the game. I'd like to at least see a couple posts from every player by now, the game has been up for almost 24 hours right?
How the fuck did this get wagoned?
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The scum had the misfortune of Titus being absurdly accurate on day one.Really quite impressed by that.~Drixx

You're letting Titus win the game by herself.Good luck now I guess.You have no chance to win.~Tywin

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Titus Academy

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