Mini 1800 - Game Over

[Titus]

Mod, replace me out. I cannot deal with this without at some point crossing some line and scaring people.

*gives a dragon hug to masquerade*

I want one. Math just made herself really likely scum. I am going to have to vote her but I don't want to.

[MathBlade]

You say that every game sis :/ Are you going to answer my question to you or ignore it?

Wtf is up with the trend of ignoring/not responding my posts? It fucking sucks. If you aren't going to answer a question at least have the balls to acknowledge it was asked and that you aren't going to answer it.

[Titus]

Pers slot, mecha, math?

Any objections to that scumteam?

...Yes because it is stupid.
Persivul obv town along with Mecha.

Are you just like throwing names on a board and seeing what sticks? Because this reeks of derp badly.

Good news Titus doesn't make sense so she is probably town. Blah...:/

This is not a question but rhetoric.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Chumba
For not realizing I changed my vote.

There were two people that didn't realize your vote

before

that. Why change your vote now?

This is town.

You usually don't read upon replace in. What made you do it here?

Do you and Masq both suffer from being scum together?

[MathBlade]

Magna* fuck auto correct

[Titus]

VOTE: Chumba
For not realizing I changed my vote.

There were two people that didn't realize your vote

before

that. Why change your vote now?

This is town.

You usually don't read upon replace in. What made you do it here?

Do you and Masq both suffer from being scum together?

Lol. That. Missed it in the spam. Masq is town sweetie and so am I. I trollol felt like it.

[MathBlade]

That isn't spam. I fucking phone post and if I don't quote like that it is nigh on impossible to have context understood.

What sticks out to you in your reread so far?

[Titus]

What've posted. Haven't read past mod ISO and 11.

Suppose the Neopolitan is town and not scum fakeclaiming, what are your reads?

[Titus]

P.s. You should be alarmed at Mecha stating that you and he could be perceived as a team, but not him and persivul

[MathBlade]

Magna and Dierfire scum together with one of my willing to lynch as the third.
Not alarmed because Mecha and Persivul (well the slot now... )are town reads. I trust them.

[Masquerade]

Math's posts sound so different since Titus joined..

Fire, thanks <3 and Math thank you too.

I overslept and have to go, will be here tonight to read some more isos.

[karnos]

Two things I realized while reading the last few pages. MathBlade isn't a "he". Sorry about that. And Firebringer is the dragon from HTTYD, I thought his avatar was a pokemon at first. Oops.

Masq, as far as the drama earlier don't worry about it. I thought your error was a bit telling, but apparently nobody else cares enough to even comment on it, perhaps I was overreacting. In the end, it's just a game.

Explain again how Masq forgetting the specifics about how a game ended is alignment indicative again?

If

he forgot, it's not NAI. I thought he might be intentionally misleading to somehow make me look better, sort of a roundabout way of buddying. I don't know, it just seemed weird. That said, I brought it up and nobody else thinks it's indicative of anything, maybe a cigar is just a cigar.

VOTE: Mathblade

Still thinking this is the most likely scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Math’s attempt to undermine Titus while quasi-buddying her at 1172 should not be overlooked.

Because I have a stronger scum read on Saru. Also, I find him rather annoying as well. Didn't really feel like he was pushing me for real either, more like trying to piss me off.

I still don't really get the feeling that Mathblade is scum. I feel like they have been getting into fights with almost everyone at this point, and I don't really see how it furthers their scum agenda. That said, their push on me was kind of weird when they're apparently scumreading me for something I said before their catch-up in which they thought I was town...

I kind of want to make a case on Saru, but it might take some time, so don't wait for it I guess?

I’d suggest you get cracking on that case because having a generic scum-read isn’t very persuasive in general terms and the lack of actively pushing you read doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies.

Please remind me of your read on Math again ...

MAFIA
Kappy**
Saru
karnos***
MathBlade

Hmmph, not ruling our Dier. I really don't see why he gave up on me being scum given our last game.

Given you are Kappy I am wondering why you think he “gave up” on scum-reading your slot again.

In his 804/823 readwall, I find it rather strange that he states all of his townreads explicitly, with relatively little reasoning, but then Math and Johnny (who appear to be his two scumreads at the time) have lengthy complicated explanations that don't ever directly say "this person is scum and why".

Literally every bit of this post makes my scumdar ping like crazy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving more indepth reasoning on scum reads than on Town reads so floating it as something to suspect Dier for is suspect. I also disagree with the assessment that his scum reads are not explained in a manner that indicates why he thinks they are scum.

This is the second time you have ignored my posts Magna. Why are you so determined to paint me as scum yet you do not read my posts. When you do quote my posts you completely misrepresent them. You are experienced. I can tell. So why are you obviously lying about mechanics to Karnos?

No, I am not lying about mechanics to karnos and your attempt to say I am is more scum play on your part.

Here is what karnos said about his results –

I investigated persivul. No result. Either I got roleblocked, or persivul got jailed.

He claims to have investigated Pers and gotten no result. His conclusion is that either he was role-blocked or Pers was jailkept.

My response to that assertion after he clarified in 994 as to why he chose Pers –

Why is someone being Jailed a part of this reasoning? Jailkeepers don’t prevent investigation roles from working on their targets. A Rolestopper? Sure that makes sense. But Jailkeeper doesn’t.

Aside from alternate Jailkeeper builds (known as Aliens) Jailkeepers do not prevent any non-killing role from acting on the Jailkept player. So karnos’s assertion that Pers was Jailkept would not preclude him from getting a result on Pers.

For someone who was so loud about people not reading your posts either you specifically did not read mine or are attempting to misrepresent the conversation (another thing you have been loud about decrying).

Scummy.

[MathBlade]

Work again. Be on later.

@Masquerade -- ...Got some reasons with that shade or are you doing the same thing I mentioned earlier...again?

@Karnos -- It will be clear to everyone else that you have a scum role PM one of these days. There is no reason to egg me on like this if you are town. I am hunting for your likely partners in the interest of group cohesion. You seem to have no interest in doing so and are not even trying to figure out the game.

*repeat after me*
Math will not get sucked into the Karnos hole.
Math will not get sucked into the Karnos hole.
Math....

[MathBlade]

Will read Magna's post after work

[MechaGoomba]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving more indepth reasoning on scum reads than on Town reads

If Dierfire really has these giant detailed scumreads why isn't he doing anything with them? You get posts like "Well, Post A, Post B, and Post C are scummy for reasons, but Post D and Post E sort of make me think town. I'll look into this later." But then he doesn't look into it later! Maybe, maybe, he'll ask an offhand question about Post C later, but you can be sure he won't follow up on it. He won't ever say "well, given that, I discount Post C as a scumtell, but doesn't Post F contradict that?"

Detailed reads? Fine. But if the reads are as strong and as detailed as it seems they are, he has no right not to be following up on them.
It looks to me like the explanation - the lengthy, detailed explanation - is something entirely separate from the read. He gives the explanation initially to justify the read, but then he forgets about it even when the read remains. That looks like someone who cares more about having strong, convincing reads than having correct reads, to me. And I don't think I need to say why that's not a town frame of mind.

[Masquerade]

Work again. Be on later.

@Masquerade -- ...Got some reasons with that shade or are you doing the same thing I mentioned earlier...again?

@Karnos -- It will be clear to everyone else that you have a scum role PM one of these days. There is no reason to egg me on like this if you are town. I am hunting for your likely partners in the interest of group cohesion. You seem to have no interest in doing so and are not even trying to figure out the game.

*repeat after me*
Math will not get sucked into the Karnos hole.
Math will not get sucked into the Karnos hole.
Math....

Remind what 'that same thing' is please.
I think it's mostly that I read your posts with a female voice now. It wasn't meant as shade but as an observation that I was thinking about, but I can see how it could be seen as shade.
Do you think it's a good idea to go buddy-hunting when we haven't had a scumflip yet?

@Karnos: Why do you think scum would lie at all about verifiable information, like a game everyone can read? Have you asked yourself that when you thought I was lying about something to buddy you?

Gonna start rereads in a couple of hours. Mathblade and Mecha have priority for me rn. I'm still a bit bothered by how he responded when I said scum have daytalk, like he was testing the waters to see if anyone else wanted to wagon me for knowing that. He was too careful, while Kappy just outright voted me. While I still think Kappy's response was opportunistic, I think Mecha's reaction was much scummier. Titus hasn't done enough yet to redeem that slot fully, but rn I don't think Math is scum so will see how I feel after rereading. I had Mecha as a townread at the end of Day 1 because of his reactions to my hammer, but those can be faked so again, will see how I feel upon reread.

[MechaGoomba]

I've spent too long being unproductive.
VOTE: Dierfire

@Dierfire: You listed four scumreads in 1153, in order from scummiest to least scummy: Titus, Saru, karnos, and MathBlade.

Why did you focus to such a great degree on Saru, compared to MathBlade, when Math was a scumread of much greater intensity?
You have me and Magna as very strong townreads and MathBlade as a strong scumread. In that case, what do you think of my conflict with Magna over Math?
You've said that you can't read karnos, but are still scumreading him. Were you more confident in your karnos read day 1, when you participated in his wagon?

[GreyICE]

Official Vote Count

MathBlade

(4): Persivul, MagnaofIllusion, Dierfire, karnos

Dierfire

(2): Firebringer, MechaGoomba

qubixes

(1): Saru

MagnaofIllusion

(1): MathBlade

Saru

(1): qubixes

Not Voting

(2): Masquerade, Kappy

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-07-11 16:00:09)

Searching for a replacement for Persivul

[MathBlade]

@Karnos -- I am bigender/gender fluid. That means I am literally both genders. I respond to both so it is really no big deal.

@Masquerade -- It was in day one. If you don't think I am scum why am I your focus?
Normally I would say no. But I haven't heard an argument around Karnos as to why he is town without the claim. Therefore it is almost impossible for me to get out of that mindset. When I can Magna and Dierfire ping me as scumspects.
(As an aside sometimes I will sound female when I write posts other times male. It is just a thing. Assign whatever voice you want.)

[MathBlade]

@Magna -- It isn't buddying. It is how I find Titus town. If I follow her immediately she is probably scum. It is just a thing. Otherwise I would be betraying my meta read of her.
And about the jail keepers fine MS has different meta. But why did you not respond then.
If ignoring posts without acknowledging ignoring is a thing I don't like that about MS meta.

[Masquerade]

If you don't think I am scum why am I your focus?

Because you are the leading wagon and I want to improve my reads before I either try to prevent your lynch or contribute to it.
So yesterday I read you as scum for trying to get a new wagon going when Johnny was wagoned, and when Johnny flipped town that kind of countered that theory. I had to reassess my read on you and figured that because everything seemed to come from one read and it was consistent, you were probably town stuck in a tunnel. But just now I remembered that tunneling is also a scum-tactic.
Anyway, I'm going to check if your iso is as consistent as I think it is.

[Masquerade]

Turns out I missed 585 several times. Probably scrolled through too fast, this time I took more care. I understand what Math is trying to say regarding Karnos and I'm starting to lean towards lynching him. I mean, the reason he gave for voting me was really strange. Why would anyone lie about something that's so easy to check? And looking back at his 1136 it's atrocious. He is simultaneously giving a reason for his votes not matching his reads (having me as townread because Math is a scumread but then voting me oh I'll just quote it

You aren't wrong about one thing, I did think Masq was likely town based on Mathblade being scum, and I do still think MathBlade is scum. But I try to be realistic, my scum reads aren't actually going to flip scum 100% of the time, and my scum reads aren't going anywhere without support from other town. I'm trying to avoid tunneling, and this particular comment from Masq really stuck out to me.

I disagree on your summary, this is about the opposite of confirmation bias. Confirmation bias would be ignoring anything that doesn't support my preexisting "MathBlade is scum" argument.

So he's now scumreading both Math and me while Math just had this push on me and not a word about that. What was it Karnos? Was Math bussing me there? Was I bussing Math yesterday? It just really looks like he isn't trying, I can't not agree with Math about this anymore.

Yeah, I'm going there.
VOTE: Karnos

More rereads to come soon. Kinda tired now, might try another one before bed but it's already pretty late so not likely.

[Dierfire]

@Saru

1. I don't think that we're discussing the same thing when we discuss tiered lists. In your first two posts, you created lists of this format:

{Chumba, Mizzytastic}
{Persivul, Snork}
{Everyone else}
{Kappy, MechaGoomba}
{Sickofit1138}

Based on the fact that you used this format at the beginning of your first two posts, I assumed that it would be one of the primary ways that you organize your thoughts. Since then it has not reappeared. I am suspicious of this because it makes it seem that your method of organizing your thoughts is not consistent and perhaps that these lists were fabricated.
Obviously I do not agree that a lack of tiered lists in general is suspicious (else I'd be pursuing players who never posted even one). Your attempt to note that I haven't put out a list of tiered reads in response looks like "counterpunch" here and increases my suspicion.
I disagree that I've only been agreeing or disagreeing with other thoughts. As examples of things that I've done proactively (by which I mean things that I do to help me read other players--also note that I make a distinction between activity, which is reflected in things like post counts, and proactivity, which is reflected in the content of those posts), I offer: my questions to Kappy in 355 and 394, trying to understand the read on Mizzytastic that Wingback gave (494), looking into old games of karnos to see whether his phrasing in his own "counterpunch" was stylistic (558), working to lock karnos into a claim (642), prompting JohnnyFarrar for content to read him better (712 and 720), probing for reasons why MathBlade didn't use associations with karnos to read JohnnyFarrar (892), and discussing your read on qubixes (1101).
You said that you read my ISO and didn't find anything proactive; did you read these and dismiss them?

2. I'm not interested in arguing about definitions of "Town leader" but I do want to compare your stated definition to your actions. JohnnyFarrar asked who was "Town leader" and you gave him the name of a Null read (Persivul) without further elaboration. If you feel that "Town leader" can be of either alignment, why did you not mention a read on Persivul to JohnnyFarrar? Would it not have been important to say whether the "Town leader" was a Town player or a Mafia player if you're using a definition that makes both equally likely?

3. You're saying that your "brain read" on qubixes was wrong. I want to know what reasoning you had at the time, for which is not sufficient to tell me why you're reading him as Town now.

[Dierfire]

@MechaGoomba

If you feel that I've not provided specific reasoning to explain "relatively important things" then you should ask me about my reasoning for those things.
You mentioned my read on JohnnyFarrar in 804 and 823. At the time of 804 I was reading JohnnyFarrar as perhaps slightly suspicious, but as I mentioned, I was working primarily with associative things and meta-things. This is why I was prompting him for content in 712 and 720. I didn't get much.
When I finished working through the list in 823, I decided that a vote on JohnnyFarrar looked better than it had previously because I would assume that a Null read being voted mostly by Town reads is more likely to be Mafia.
For both of those posts, it would be inaccurate to say that JohnnyFarrar and MathBlade were "my two Mafia reads at the time" (karnos and Kappy would also be there, although, as I mentioned in 823, karnos is a perpetual punt and Kappy had been absent long enough that I didn't have any further update to that read).