Mini 1787: Peruvian Nightclub Mafia (Game End!)

[iraonavp]

VOTE: ira

for being scum.

Also, hi ira and keyser!

Hi, toolenduso!

VOTE: Robert2424

[iraonavp]

VOTE: iraonavp
Voting someone who hasn't even talked

like the mafia

This isn't an rvs vote, this is an actual read and its' not changing for the rest of the day

Robert2424 has talked, though.

[iraonavp]

I'm here, just barely. I'd vote for Jake, cause I don't trust him, but I'm leaving town in a few hours.....

Not a fan of this post at all. Hesitant to vote on the first page? With literally the vaguest reason ever?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Robert2424

More vague could be just saying that he's voting for "reasons", so that isn't true.

[iraonavp]

Retrospectively, don't really like ira's 29. He seems to be taking an issue with my phrasing as opposed to my assertion. Furthermore, he had voted for Robert right after I had.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: iraonavp

What was the purpose of post 29? And could you explain your Robert vote in 21?

I do take issue with your assertion, I just didn't say that.

I voted for Robert because he was the largest wagon.

[iraonavp]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Keyser is mafia but don't have anything to back that up

Same.

VOTE: Keyser Söze

[iraonavp]

OK - I can understand your reasoning about scum being over-cautious or self-conscience in early D1 play, but I am not seeing that fear/over-concern in Robert2424's opening post. I saw it as a RVS reply to Jake from State Farm's RVS vote.

"offering an opinion without justification or commitment"

? - I have never seen this on Page 1 of a game.

I like playing aggressively at the beginning of D1. At the very least, it gets discussion going, and sometimes you'll get lucky and catch scum.

And I still don't think that Robert's post was an RVS post. I mean you may be right, but it seems serious to me. Not that it really matters because when Robert comes back he can write it off as RVS either way.

Why does it matter whether or not his post is RVS?

[iraonavp]

What?

I'm town-aligned, but how are my posts dumb?

[iraonavp]

I think that voting the largest wagon is a good way to conduct RVS.

I voted Keyser because I found him suspicious? I don't see what's comical about that.

[iraonavp]

vote:iraonavp

Why are you voting for me?

I am town-aligned.

[iraonavp]

This game is basically contradicting my expectations of how town usually gets out of RVS. I feel like it usually goes like this:

RVS votes -> player A says something mildly scummy -> people wagon player A, and in the process player B says something weird -> people wagon player B

By this time in the game I feel like there's usually been a legit wagon. Since there hasn't been one yet in this game, I feel like scum is either disjointed or timid.

The main thing was that I really expected at least a small wagon on Robert for his first post. As soon as I saw it I thought it looked very surface-level scummy. Exactly the sort of thing you can make a shallow case on. Good place to look for scum trying to go for something easy/look like they're scumhunting.

Then jaack was the only person to do anything about it. After that:

ira kinda joke-criticized jaack about it in #29, Tyler townread jaack in #54 for it, Keyser voted jaack for it in #55 and Dunn votes and makes a case on jaack in #91.

It just kinda makes sense to me that jaack could be scum and his partners didn't support the robert wagon but are also not really dealing with the fallout on jaack either. He's a good place to start, I think.

VOTE: jaack

In other news, re-reading gave me a townlean on Tyler. Not entirely for the way he's playing, though he is doing work (a surface-level towny-looking thing), but more the way that people started townreading him almost in kind of snowball fashion. It's striking me as the kind of thing where town say he looks town, impressionable town agree and scum hop onto the townreading wagon in an effort to have genuine-looking reads.

Is it not equally likely that Jaack voted Robert because he genuinely believed his post was suspicious, regardless of how "surface level" that belief might be?

[iraonavp]

I think Dunnstral is town-aligned. I don't see his posts as fake or unnatural at all.

[iraonavp]

OK - I can understand your reasoning about scum being over-cautious or self-conscience in early D1 play, but I am not seeing that fear/over-concern in Robert2424's opening post. I saw it as a RVS reply to Jake from State Farm's RVS vote.

"offering an opinion without justification or commitment"

? - I have never seen this on Page 1 of a game.

I like playing aggressively at the beginning of D1. At the very least, it gets discussion going, and sometimes you'll get lucky and catch scum.

And I still don't think that Robert's post was an RVS post. I mean you may be right, but it seems serious to me. Not that it really matters because when Robert comes back he can write it off as RVS either way.

Why does it matter whether or not his post is RVS?

why on earth would it

not

matter?

If it didn't matter? I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[iraonavp]

I think that voting the largest wagon is a good way to conduct RVS.

I voted Keyser because I found him suspicious? I don't see what's comical about that.

what about voting the largest wagon do you find helpful? I don't necessarily disagree entirely, but it seems like something vastly more variable than that.

If there are large wagons, the game can leave RVS faster.

[iraonavp]

XY, I'm trying to figure out who I'm going to switch my vote to. I just haven't read as in depth as I had liked. I pretty much skimmed and looked at the early stuff before I had to go to work.

My feelings have changed. If Dunn was mafia I feel like he would have dropped this "hey look how into this game I am" (I'm really trying to explain this as best I can) tone after being called out on it by 3 people. I'm curious about how he's actually going to push this "case" on me.

I don't think that is a good reason to think that Dunnstral is town-aligned. If I was using that metric to read Dunnstral I would invert it and call him scum-aligned for it, but I think the best thing to do is ignore it.

I think you are focusing excessively on this non-alignment-indicative aspect of Dunnstral's play because you are scum-aligned and your attempts to read players are fake.

VOTE: Bins

[iraonavp]

I don't think that is a good reason to think that Dunnstral is town-aligned. If I was using that metric to read Dunnstral I would invert it and call him scum-aligned for it, but I think the best thing to do is ignore it.

Huh? Why would I be scum-aligned and why would you be ignoring that?

No, I don't think you are scum-aligned. I am ignoring it because you are playing like this regardless of your alignment.

I think you are focusing excessively on this non-alignment-indicative aspect of Dunnstral's play because you are scum-aligned and your attempts to read players are fake.

VOTE: Bins

Something about this seems off to me, I think it's the fact that you voted keyser when I said I had a feeling he was maf earlier and are now following me again

Can be coincidence but it seems weird since you also seem to be focused on me for some reason

I didn't even know you were voting Bins as well, I don't care if you are or not.

[iraonavp]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Keyser is mafia but don't have anything to back that up

Same.

VOTE: Keyser Söze

That vote

The WIFOM that pours through my veins is telling me

too-bad-to-be-scum

(i.e scum would at least sheep something meaty).

That's such a terrible attempt to discredit me.

I shouldn't have moved my vote away, I also think my reasoning for voting Bins was poorly elaborated and possibly partially imaginary.

VOTE: Keyser Söze

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but I expect you to vote me later.

[iraonavp]

Yeah, definitely not joining the bins wagon now... while I think dunn's argument has merit, I'm NOT joining a wagon with ira and tool on it.

That's poor logic, you will end up with fragile and distant reads if you think like this.

[iraonavp]

Just the way he tries to continuously dismantle suspicion on himself by explaining himself very "Yep. This is how it is. Lmfao, back off now." (as you can see I have a Ph.D. in explaining)

VOTE: iraonavp
Voting someone who hasn't even talked

like the mafia

This isn't an rvs vote, this is an actual read and its' not changing for the rest of the day

Robert2424 has talked, though.

This is so null but so not null at the same time if u kno what i mean

I'm here, just barely. I'd vote for Jake, cause I don't trust him, but I'm leaving town in a few hours.....

Not a fan of this post at all. Hesitant to vote on the first page? With literally the vaguest reason ever?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Robert2424

More vague could be just saying that he's voting for "reasons", so that isn't true.

Like I mentioned b4 pointless dismantle
Like this is how you just ruin a point by mentioned something that isn't really relevant
"Like hey but he could have been MORE VAGUE so.............. ur wrong lets discount your post."

I have a sneaking suspicion that Keyser is mafia but don't have anything to back that up

Same.

VOTE: Keyser Söze

This is an aweful vote

What?

I'm town-aligned, but how are my posts dumb?

vote:iraonavp

Why are you voting for me?

I am town-aligned.

this is what I was saying as my first point

I think you are reading intentions into my posts that aren't really there. You should take what people say at face value.

[iraonavp]

ill bite, though, why's ira town?

and if it has anything to do with too scum to be scum then that's fine ive heard that before

and why vote a lurker? this game's slow enough as is.

I am town-aligned, people are just saying "too scum to be scum" when there is no "scum" to start with, and then you remove the fallacy to find the "scum" that never existed.

[iraonavp]

I'm here, just barely. I'd vote for Jake, cause I don't trust him, but I'm leaving town in a few hours.....

Not a fan of this post at all. Hesitant to vote on the first page? With literally the vaguest reason ever?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Robert2424

More vague could be just saying that he's voting for "reasons", so that isn't true.

I get you're trying to be cheeky, but I don't understand why you're derailing his point.

I cannot answer this fairly because of the assumption that I am "derailing his point".

[iraonavp]

In all of Keyser Söze's posts, he is not suspecting anyone and constantly vacillating based on small things. Most of his posts are barely coherent and he is asking questions without answers.

[iraonavp]

That's poor logic, you will end up with fragile and distant reads if you think like this.

How is this bad logic at all? If I think 2/3 players on a wagon are scum, why would I support that wagon?

You should support that wagon if you thought that the wagoned player was scum-aligned, independent of the alignment of those on the wagon. Otherwise, you will base your reads on a player off your hesitant reads on another player and confbias every vote into further evidence against me.

Why to you keep saying that you're town? How is that going to convince anyone?

Perhaps subliminally, but I keep saying that because it reminds me that it is true.

Why do you always nitpick about minor wordings and other junk as opposed to arguing against, you know, the meaning of the post?

Why are you so obviously scum?

I cannot answer any of these questions because they have false or misrepresentative premises.

[iraonavp]

zach, read on ira?

ira, read on zach?

Town-aligned.

[iraonavp]

I shouldn't have moved my vote away, I also think my reasoning for voting Bins was poorly elaborated and possibly partially imaginary.

i think you elaborated just fine, like to the point where it was over justified

please explain what about your reasoning now seems imaginary

I'll try again.

XY, I'm trying to figure out who I'm going to switch my vote to. I just haven't read as in depth as I had liked. I pretty much skimmed and looked at the early stuff before I had to go to work.

My feelings have changed. If Dunn was mafia I feel like he would have dropped this "hey look how into this game I am" (I'm really trying to explain this as best I can) tone after being called out on it by 3 people. I'm curious about how he's actually going to push this "case" on me.

I don't think that is a good reason to think that Dunnstral is town-aligned. If I was using that metric to read Dunnstral I would invert it and call him scum-aligned for it, but I think the best thing to do is ignore it.

I think you are focusing excessively on this non-alignment-indicative aspect of Dunnstral's play because you are scum-aligned and your attempts to read players are fake.

VOTE: Bins

Bins says that if Dunn was scum-aligned, he would've dropped the joking front and became more serious after he was called out for it. I don't think this is true.

I think that this kind of WIFOM logic is used by scum-aligned players to justify their reads on players who are acting oddly, because they know what their alignment really is.

In this example, I was accusing Bins of knowing that Dunnstal was town-aligned, and using his erratic behavior as evidence to support this when it could support any justification, so Bins' inner bias and scum-aligned knowledge is showing.

[iraonavp]

@Zulfy: I am in fact voting Keyser Söze.

mmhmm

VOTE: Keyser Söze

[iraonavp]

Keyser Söze has puked by far the most rhetoric and emotes at me, yet he is voting heuristically_alone. Why is this?

I think it is because heuristically_alone is reading me as town-aligned. By accusing heuristically_alone, he chains together the discrediting for an easier push on someone who already has second degree unpopular reads.

Additionally, it may be because he wants to avoid OMGUS.

[iraonavp]

Keyser Söze has puked by far the most rhetoric and emotes at me, yet he is voting heuristically_alone. Why is this?

This is a strange reaction. Why can't I vote heuristically_alone? You keep looking inwardly (i.e how my vote on heuristically_alone affects other people's view of you - this is short-sighted) - my reads of players are based on individuals.

I expect you to vote me later.

Additionally, it may be because he wants to avoid OMGUS.

Please stop deflecting with your

'OMGUS-vote-for-me'

plea, it is poor play and defensive and tells me nothing but that you are uncomfortable with the spot light on you and extra-conscious of your wagon
Please answer my earlier questions:

Spoiler:

In all of Keyser Söze's posts, he is not suspecting anyone and constantly vacillating based on small things.

Do you want a reads-list?

I have not listed my reads yet, but have expressed my reads, obviously not complete reads as this comes with time. I do suspect players (and have questioned them), but even if I did not have any scum-reads is that scum-indicative for early D1? I reject your abhorrent logic - please, tell me which items are "small" or big? In fact,

highlight all the "big things" on Day 1 so far

.

Most of his posts are barely coherent and

he is asking questions without answers

.

Show me, me asking questions without answers?

No one

has refused to interact with me, and have gained information from those interactions.

Note repeated citation of things commonly considered as "scumtells", yet he never explicitly calls me scum-aligned.

I am accused by:

• "a strange reaction"
  
• "deflecting"
  
• "defensive"
  
• "uncomfortable with the spot light on you"
  
• "extra-conscious of your wagon"

This is a scum-aligned response because it indicates that he is afraid to read me as scum-aligned.

[iraonavp]

ira, read on zach?

Town-aligned.

why?

I'm not sure. But that's what I think when I read his posts.

[iraonavp]

This is what I'm reading people at the moment.

1. toolenduso
   - unsure
   
2. heuristically_alone
   - town-aligned
   
3. iraonavp
   - town-aligned
   
4. Dunnstral
   - town-aligned
   
5. Robert2424
   - unsure
   
6. Bins
   - scum-aligned
   
7. Zachstralkita
   - town-aligned
   
8. Keyser Söze
   - scum-aligned
   
9. xyzzy
   - unsure
   
10. hobbez
    Floof
    - unsure
    
11. Tyler the Creator
    - town-aligned
    
12. Jaack
    - town-aligned
    
13. Jake from State Farm
    - town-aligned

[iraonavp]

Keyser Söze's questions don't have answers, this is because he's scum-aligned.

His posts have excessive rhetoric and buzzwords which he hides behind.

[iraonavp]

He was dodging the game and his only post was a vote on my town read. I think he was just following bandwagons at the time which is scummy. I am pretty confident he will flip scum at this point to be honest.

How could he be following bandwagons when he didn't really join a bandwagon?

The consensus at the time was Jake was scum/null I thought

Do you mean Zack?

What consensus?

[iraonavp]

I'd be willing to vote H_A or Iran I am going to wait though before I vote again.

But why are you willing to vote H_A?

Also Jake what do you think about H_A?

He was dodging the game and his only post was a vote on my town read. I think he was just following bandwagons at the time which is scummy. I am pretty confident he will flip scum at this point to be honest.

VOTE: H_A

You don't sound very confident.

[iraonavp]

Keyser Söze continues his crusade, hide both your alignment and playstyle because neither are safe from his spoilers and reaction gifs.

I don't think toolenduso is to be trusted either. He sounds distant when I read his posts.

I must admit that I am not reading closely enough to properly understand heuristically_alone's stances. So I'll try and read closer.

[iraonavp]

Bins says that if Dunn was scum-aligned, he would've dropped the joking front and became more serious after he was called out for it. I don't think this is true.

I think that this kind of WIFOM logic is used by scum-aligned players to justify their reads on players who are acting oddly, because they know what their alignment really is.

In this example, I was accusing Bins of knowing that Dunnstal was town-aligned, and using his erratic behavior as evidence to support this when it could support any justification, so Bins' inner bias and scum-aligned knowledge is showing.

yea but i asked you why you've moved on from that read - not to elaborate on it more lol

i just think there's a bit of a jump in your thought process here that doesn't feel town
within your elaboration here even if you don't agree with a certain methodology (how bins was going about approaching how to read dunn) i think that you're forcing scum motive into something that seems like an okay thought process to have

like im following the scum probably stop being loud after getting ridden by multiple people very early on thing well enough and ive taken similar approaches before so you capping it off with a declaration of "i disagree!" and then saying it's a scum thing doesn't sit right

and you going into what you thought was imaginary about it in detail should be a thing you do pretty soon here or else im gonna have to assume that you backed down from your reasoning just because you were getting scumread for it and that ends badly for you

I possibly forgot to answer this.

I moved on from my read because I thought Kesyer Söze was more suspicious than Bins. I think you are reading me backing down from a read or something when I just moved my vote.

[iraonavp]

VOTE: Zachstralkita
Your first post and post 122 have been the 2 worst posts of the entire game. And in general you got more talk than game.

This is a strongly town-aligned post.

Finally, my reads so far

Spoiler: Jack

First off, I found it so strange that so many people read Jack so early on as scum or town based on his vote in post 13 against Robert. I think anyone voting him as an easy vote at the beginning makes for possible scum players, (Keyser, tool, floof for example), not that I'm saying that one of them HAVE to be scum. As for Jack, I don't have enough information yet from him to really say for me what he is, but for now I'm leaning on town.

Spoiler: Robert

Robert has been really inactive as well, and I don't have a read. If what bins said in 239 is true about mafia being quiet this game, it could be a reason why

Spoiler: Bins

239You've been relatively quiet too this game.
38 States that being super townie is your scum game. Now we know to expect that if Bins is mafia, she won't be super townie in this game. And maybe even if a super townie posts accidentally jumbles in, it gives more cause to her being scum.
177I feel like mafia use excuses like this more often than town. So what you haven't played for a year. Isn't playing mafia like riding a bike? Saying you haven't played for awhile so refamiliarizing yourself is similar to mafia tactic of acting more like a newbie or taking advantage to being a newbie so scummy posts can get away by having players think, oh he's just a newbie doesn't know what he's doing.
On a whole, I'm pushing Bins onto my scum side of the spectrum for now

Spoiler: xyzzy

I'm thinking town at this point. More of a gut feeling. There have been quite a few posts done that seems to be generally seeking more information from players and challenging players on their spots and it just feels pro town to me

Spoiler: tyler

vote:xyzzy

guess why im voting this

Still confused about what you meant by this. Were you assuming that we though it obvious why you voted thus?
First assumption is that Tyler is town. Also a gut choice. He does seem to think Jack is town and has some doubt on Bins like me, so with common thoughts, I'll put him as town for now.

Spoiler: Toolenduso

As you might have guess from my Jack reading, I have a little suspicion towards tool. Also like Keyser, posts clarifying posts but lacks giving some original content to help town.

Spoiler: Zach

My vote stays on Zach for now.
70 "Also, I'm certain you guys aren't aware of this, but I have a mental power thing like I can see into people's hearts with my mind. Like a scouter for your soul. I have the intuition of a reincarnated something. Sure, It's natural to be skeptical, but expect me to make a definite solid statement on the true identity of the scumteam at some point and be super right. Maybe today. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe 19 days from now. Maybe in 5 minutes." I find this a scummy post. Obviously trying to have some fun with the game, but also poking fun around the the time limit and not giving definite times. This type of joking is something I've seen other mafia and myself do as scum.
146Why are you so eager to get Dunn on the wagon? I think that Dunnstral's line of thinking could be considered a threat to the mafia and would want him destroyed

@Zach What's all this shade getting thrown my way without really saying anything of value

You're scum.

Refuses to give explanation of vote other than "He is scum". Voting people without evidence hurts town.

There's not much to say at this point, you lynch him, he flips scum, yay, you lynch him, he flips town, you lynch me.


More likely: You lynch me, I die, no one does anything about Dunnstral following this.

I vote the last option. If we are wrong and you are townie, than we can go after Dunn.

Spoiler: Floof

Also a suspect of mafia for voting Jack. There hasn't been any more substantial reading from Floof to get more of an opinion.

Spoiler: Jake

246Asks people to not use lists because it helps the mafia out too much and doesn’t help the town. If this is an earnest request, then it makes Jake town, whether or not people agree with him on his opinion of read lists

I don't like spoilers, so at least I can read it after I quote it.

I disagree with the idea of making a pool of players just because they voted someone, trying to predict the actions of scum-aligned players. But all that really matters is whether or not he believes what he is saying.

[iraonavp]

I'm just trying to be more clear about my thoughts.

[iraonavp]

VOTE: Jack

I am still on page 4 but I think Jack is scum.

VOTE: H_A

Actually thinking about it this needs to post more.

UNVOTE: Jaack

Ok so I have no idea what is going on right now

On the bright side me and Jaack have very similar reads so I am going to unvote him.

I'd be willing to vote H_A or Iran I am going to wait though before I vote again.

But why are you willing to vote H_A?

Also Jake what do you think about H_A?

He was dodging the game and his only post was a vote on my town read. I think he was just following bandwagons at the time which is scummy. I am pretty confident he will flip scum at this point to be honest.

VOTE: H_A

I think Floof being out of touch with votes is slightly suspicious.

[iraonavp]

Meh scum could easily make a post like 192. It certainly isn't a "strongly town aligned post"

I don't think heuristically_alone would do that while scum-aligned as a relatively new player.

[iraonavp]

I'm a bodyguard, so heuristically_alone is almost surely lying.

VOTE: heuristically_alone

[iraonavp]

I disagree with this. After h_a's claim, ira was the most likely lynch by a decent margin. Claiming now would buy scum-ira a day (and in the very unlikely event they're scumbuddies, 2+ days)

i guess maybe im still getting back into where the gamestate is at but the ira wagon felt easy to push to a point but then harder at about 3, 4 votes so maybe you've got a point

but on the other hand ira + ha means ira outwardly hard townread a buddy day 1 and you don't really see that very often
plus that means we don't have a protective role

I feel obligated to mention that I hard townread a buddy who got lynched d1 in the game that toolenduso linked.

Floof seems rather oblivious here, I think that she missed a page or something as a result of the same carelessness that was shown when she forgot who she was voting. If Floof is scum-aligned then I don't think her post indicated that she knew the claim wasn't legitimate.

[iraonavp]

I bet Keyser Söze feels fortunate about not calling me scum-aligned now.

[iraonavp]

ira how do you feel about xyzzy's read progression on you?

I don't mind it. I think they're the type of player who looks at every post individually in isolation and then adds up the points, so it's not like their perspective is fluctuating wildly.

[iraonavp]

If

Ira were mafia, it would actually be an interesting move to fake claim a town role just to get me out. Ira knew that it might be him if not me hence the fake claim to really ensure they get rid of the town PR and thus having to sacrifice himself to the town lynch on next day after having mislynched a PR.

The first sentence shows that you really think that I'm town-aligned which doesn't make sense with the second sentence.

[iraonavp]

No hammer until Robert explains what his role is. I think I know what Robert's role means but I want him to explain it.

I have an idea that I'll say after Robert.

[iraonavp]

I think that Robert is town-aligned.

I feel like heuristically_alone is more likely to be town-aligned than not, when I think about it. I'm doubting that there would be both a macho townie and a bodyguard, when both aren't strong roles.

I strongly doubt this is a gambit on Robert's part to save heuristically_alone, where both are scum-aligned.

552 does give me cause for concern, though.

I think we should not lynch heuristically_alone, and definitely not Robert2424. I won't protect him so mafia can kill him if they want to, otherwise he can have the opportunity to save others from death.

VOTE: Keyser Söze

[iraonavp]

I don't think we should lynch heuristically_alone.

[iraonavp]

I feel like heuristically_alone is more likely to be town-aligned than not

...and which one of his caught-scum troll posts he's posted since you counterclaimed him caused you to change your mind?

None of them, I just changed my mind after thinking about it.

...But why Keyser? You never really gave any reasoning for that

Nobody seems to agree with me about him. I can't explain well with more than short quips, but all of his posts in response to me seem to have really fake emotion.

[iraonavp]

The amount and structure of resistance to lynching HA makes me continually comfortable with the lynch. And regardless of his flip, we will have a lot more evidence to look at tomorrow than we've had for most of today.

I don't like how you feel the need to justify it with weak reasons like this, especially if we both end up being town-aligned. It would be really bad if we're both town-aligned and "information lynches" don't exist. It's easy to say that there is resistance to someone when scum-aligned because you already know how that observation can be used to accuse other people.

Maybe you're just going to hammer anyway but I don't feel like this is the right move.

If heuristically_alone ends up being scum-aligned, though, I really don't think that would make Robert scum-aligned. The gambit that Jaack is theorizing seems altogether impossible to me.

[iraonavp]

Policy lynches happen sometimes.

Were you in fact Tyler the Creator?