BattleCON: War, Devastation or Fate of Indines

[Zorblag]

Troll gives warm greetings to all!

BattleCON be a board game that simulates a computer fighting game (like Street Fighter.) Troll knows thanks to the search function that at least some at Mafiascum be familiar with it. It takes place over a maximum of 15 beats, and it be a pretty feasible game to play via forums if both players have access to the cards. This could be done with spoiler tags or through a moderator.

This post be to gauge interest here at Mafiascum. It could possibly go in the whole general mish-mash (and the games would if they came to be,) but Troll decided to start at the game discussion forum first.

Here be some online resources if any be interested:

• A free print and play version with four characters to start out so you can get a feel for the game.
  A Fate of Indines Rulebook which will have the most recent version of the rules.
  Rodney Smith's Watch it Played rules video (a resource for seeing how to play the game.)
  The World of Indines Wiki which gives background on the setting and the characters (as well as their full kits needed to pay the game.)
  A video series on how individual characters play. That series is for Devastation, the largest game, but the youtube channel has videos for all the characters in War and has started Fate as well.
  Game 1: Cybele (Karin & Jager) vs. Zorblag (Alexian), the first MS forum game.
  Game 2: Cybele (Pendros) vs. Zorblag (Clinhyde), the second MS forum game.
  Game 3: KingdomAces (Hikaru) vs. Zorblag (Kallistar).
  

Let Troll know if that sounds interesting, or if you have any questions. Troll thanks you in advance for any interest!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

*edited to be a more informative OP.

[Zorblag]

@Cybele, actually Troll, upon thinking about it, would recommend checking out the free print and play version if you no be familiar but want to see if the game be interesting. That link be a way to download 4 good beginning characters as well as the digital rulebook. If you take a look and it seems appealing Troll be happy to play with those four characters for a game or two. Let Troll know what you think and if there be any questions Troll could answer.

@xofelf, Troll thanks for the offer of help! At this point this one should be easy enough to handle if there be others interested. We no should need a moderator and creating the thread be easy enough. If any games get started Troll will try to make an announcement over in the appropriate thread in mish-mash, but it shouldn't take any work on your end (hurrah for no more work!)

@Papa Zito, Troll be here now though, so there be no need to miss Troll at this time. You should think about playing this game if it looks at all interesting.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Hmm, another way to see how the game be played would be to watch Rodney Smith's Watch it Played rules video. It be a good introduction to the rules and one should be able to play a game after that and have a good idea of what to expect.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

On the plus side, Troll agrees that it be a good game and worth picking up if you enjoy the idea!

Troll might go set a thread up in mish-mash for a game and you can come pick a character when you have had a chance to look things over! As xofelf says, that be a way to perhaps get more attention.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll be doing well and just getting ready to be beat on by some video game style character! How be Untrod Tripod?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

It probably be Rodney Smith explaining how to play a game, but Troll supposes you might be talking about another video.

The game mostly consists of both players moving around a limited board (just 7 spaces) and trying to beat on each other for 15 beats or until one has been knocked out. Each beat the players will be picking a pair of cards, one style and one base. Those combine to make an attack with a range, power, priority and a variety of other potential attributes (like moving one or both characters around.) The attacks then happen according to the cards.

There be more, but that be perhaps a short description?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Hmm, Troll earlier said that it would be good for opponents to have the game in order to play. The purpose there was so that them can see the cards for both characters easily to make decisions. It turns out that the characters all seem to have their full kits at The World of Indines Wiki. That would make it much more feasible for anyone who was interested to play any character without having the physical game.

Also, if anyone be interested in what a pbf game of BatttleCON would look like you can take a look at This game that Troll and Cybele be playing. We be at beat 14 and it be very close (and almost over.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Game 1: Karin & Jager (Cybele) vs. Alexian (Zorblag) be complete now. If any want to see how a full game would play out that be the place to look. There was one mistake in game play that Troll knows of, but mostly it be fairly clean.

Troll and Cybele now be playing Game 2: Pendros (Cybele) vs Clinhyde (Zorblag). The game should probably have a much different feel than the last as we be playing very different characters (and Troll's unique ability drains Troll's life to use which gives Troll incentive to make things faster!)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

In an interesting bit of news for the game, it seems that Dash be about to be replaced in tournament play as it be overpowered.

Dash be priority 9 and has an after activating effect that one can move 1, 2 or 3 spaces. If one switches sides with an opponent with that movement, then that opponent cannot hit one. It be due to be replaced with dodge which be similar. Now the priority drops to 3 (which be much more clashable, hence the weakness,) and the effect be moved to start of beat instead of before activation.

Well, Troll finds it interesting at least.

Really, this be a game that mafia players should do well at. It be all about figuring out what one's opponent be doing while simultaneously trying to fool them with one's own. It be like scum hunting and hiding as scum boiled down to a single choice, and then repeated up to 15 times! Or some such reasoning.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@KingdomAces, if you want to check out the game Troll would recommend starting with the free print and play version, and the most recent digital rulebook. Those should give you access as long as you have a computer. If you haven't already seen it Rodney Smith's Watch it Played rules video is also worth seeing as it might clear up anything that our games might not be making sense of.

If you take a look at those and have any interest in playing a game then let Troll know and we'll set one up. Troll be happy to play any of the players in that 4 player print and play if you want to pick any matchup that sounds fun. Troll hasn't played any of the four yet so them would all be new challenges!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Sounds great! Troll will just go ahead and play Kallistar so that we be playing the two characters from War (because Troll needs to pick a character somehow.) Troll has set up a game for us over at Mish-mash! Troll will see you there and once you be ready to go you can start to beat on Troll!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@GreyICE, Troll welcomes a veteran player! Perfect for stomping on Trolls! Troll would be game to play a match if you like (though others be welcome to jump in as well if they like.) Troll assumes that Hez means Hepzibah? Troll be interested in trying out Demitras from the same flight, so perhaps this would do? Troll be all for trying out Dodge, and would be interested in using the Force Gauge if GreyICE finds that acceptable. Troll probably no has time to set up another game tonight, but soon!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll no minds if Demitras will be weaker; with Troll's experience Troll largely expects to lose anyhow and Troll mostly be interested in trying him out. Troll be fine doing the antes in a private chat somewhere and posting them. As you indicate this might be longer beat per beat, but Troll thinks that no be the end of the world. Troll will need to wait until this evening to set up the game most likely (especially as Troll needs to look at both kits to figure out what makes sense for starting discards.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll be all for showing off these games so that we can get more to play. As Troll has said, this game should be a good fit for mafia players Troll would think.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So after a pause Troll and KingdomAces be playing another game! Troll should be back for more of them now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Trials should be either out or on Kickstarter (it no be entirely clear to Troll which, probably Kickstarter though,) at the end of August. Troll believes that will be the first easy source of them outside POD options. Them seem to have said something about tweaking the force gauge as well, but Troll no be sure what that means.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll would start with the free print and play to see if you like it. If you want to try a forum play then Troll be sure that someone here would be up for it!

If you really be looking to buy something then either Devastation or War (remastered, though that probably be the one you could fine) be the best options. War was the first game released and has 18 characters. It probably has slightly simpler starting characters, but them get plenty complicated in the upper flights. Devastation likely be more expensive and has 30 characters with about the same range of complexity (barring the very simplest of those in War.) Both of those have a nice range of characters in terms of play-styles and either would provide many many plays before them needed any supplementation.

Fate would be the third choice, it introduces a few new mechanics (starting positions and Finisher rules) which the game now assumes, but it be a poor starting set as the characters all tend to be a bit more on the complex side.

Let Troll know if you have other questions and Troll will answer them if Troll can. GreyICE has more experience with the game and might have more insightful answers to give as well.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll be most glad you be liking it! Do let us know if you ever want to play a slower forum game. You can dance around Troll before crushing him here perhaps.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Yeah, the kickstarter goes live on Friday. Troll will probably back it. The new characters look like a better mix of beginner and advanced than Fate did, so Troll likes that!

Troll also be interested in seeing what the rumored tweak to the Force Gauge will be. It has had a huge effect on some characters so Troll sort of hopes it tones things down a bit if possible.

It be exciting though!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The newer characters (Fate and on,) be balanced with Force gauge, but Troll finds that it throws some of the earlier ones off. It be helping some (Clive's ability to add stun guard to any attack pair makes him safer in many matchups, Marmelee certainly welcomes stun guard as well,) and hurts others Troll be sure (Demitras to some degree as having 2 stun guard against his attacks often be enough and him has at least one style that needs the opponenet to have priority 3 or less to stun which be easier to play around as an opponent.) It be one extra resource to manage, but it be a pretty simple one. Troll does like not having to worry about the Special action, so that be nice. The extra style (Force Special Action,) also be really nice at times. A blank style really helps some characters from time to time, without usually adding that much more to think about for attack pairs as usually it isn't that attractive.

The other things this set will formally introduce be Dodge. We've been playing with that instead of Dash on our Forum Games for the most part. It also has a big influence on the games as it shifts the movement to a start of beat instead of before activating, but drops the priority to 3 from 9. Troll has played with it more, so Troll be fine with it.

TL:DR;

no not more balanced, just differently balanced now.

Troll hasn't yet played any of the characters from Fate, but Troll be looking forward to a few.

If you ever be up for any forum games, do let us know! Troll would love to be crushed by you!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The change in Dash to Dodge is interesting. It is more clashable, but Troll hesitates to call it a nerf as moving it to start of beat from after activating makes it more reliable (you can't be fast enough to avoid it like Demitras and some others used to be able to, and it can't be lost to a couple effects that stop before or after activating from firing (which seem more common than the ones that stop start of beat/end of beat.))

Any time you be free for a game just let us know! Right now it's mostly KingdomAces and Troll playing, but we certainly be happy to expand the community here!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

All right! The kickstarter for BattleCON: Trials of Indines be live.

It mostly be what was expected, but them do have the storage solution for the whole system stretch goal that Troll was merely strongly hoping for!

It looks like it might be a nice place to step into Indines based on the mix of Characters, and Troll be pretty happy that these now start coming with deck boxes for all the characters by default so Troll can stop making them (a skill which Troll only marginally has.)

There be a few more promos (looks like about 3,) but these be interesting in that them will apparently be tournament legal and fully in the Indines universe which no has been true of promos in the past.

Does anyone else plan on backing? Does anyone hate what them be doing?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

And now there be a bit more information about the changes to the force gauge.

It seems that it will be replacing the 15 beats in a game. The game will now start with a number of force tokens and players will gain 1 each turn by default (or more if them be at 7 life or below or have used the force special action.) The last beat will come with the tokens be out. In the games we have played here at least two have ended at beat 15 with a 2-1 life balance, so that change in the number of beats could have made some difference.

Them apparently also be getting rid of soak as one of the effects that can be anted for. That leaves +1 Power, +2 Priority and +2 Stun Guard. That makes the +1 Power more potent and stops players from being able to ante to effective stun guard 3 on any attack them want to.

Troll no has seen the final version of the rules, but them be interesting. In a live game the Force tokens for timing seems at least as easy to remember to use as the turn counter (which Troll knows Troll has forgotten to advance at least once.) Troll no knows how much more fiddly it will feel for forum play.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll supposes that Shot be made more powerful by the force gauge in terms of being able to at least trade coupled with the hit confirm, but Troll no be sure how much more Troll be using it in games than Troll would have otherwise. It possibly be due to the matchups Troll has been playing where Trading no actually be that useful because of the opponent (Lixis a lot, and Adjenna) Troll's player (Demitras at least once,) or the various styles that stop hits. It might be interesting to see how much more Shot be used in games by taking a look at forum games pre and post force gauge somewhere that has a good sample and seeing how much more Shot be used as the base of choice over all match ups. Troll still tends to value burst and drive a bit more for the movement effects.

The lack of symmetry for the options does be a nice change. It makes the Power Ante actually threatening now which Troll likes.

The timing issue Troll initially thought was uninteresting to Troll, but now Troll be thinking about playing Magdelina and Troll sees that it has potentially serious implications. Like with any change, it will benefit some characters more than others, and this one changes the games to be between probably 10 and 16 beats (the theoretical minimum be lower, but 10 probably be about as low as it would go in most cases.) Still, even taking a couple beats away from the 15 makes a difference to characters who either need time to get something done (Magdelina and Adjenna spring to mind,) or those who might be inclined to run out the clock if them have a lead (which Troll no knows well enough to identify offhand, and might depend on matchups.) Troll almost thinks that a pool of 44 counters might be better than 40 for preserving old balances. That would take the range of game lengths to closer to 12-sh to 18 which feels less disruptive.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

*nods* Troll knows about the how the bases pair up if we assume that the fighters be at range 1 and not adjacent to the edges of the arena.

But why not say Drive is the overpowered one with Stun Guard 2? It has the same outcomes or slightly better outcomes (beating Grasp by 1, losing to Strike by 1 if the player no chooses to make that a draw by driving out of melee range which Shot can't do, drawing with Shot and beating Burst by 3.) If we want to worry about how adding a power ante to the opponent changes things (which it does,) then the only one that beats drive cold is the power ante grasp (which be 3 damage instead of 5 from the strike.)

There be other issues like the range, the ability to re-position, and all the styles and UAs which do all their crazy things, but just looking at bases, drive's weaknesses be as covered by the force gauge as Shot's do, if not more.

Shot also still be a great base, but Troll again no thinks that it has an edge of drive just from base comparisons.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll can do this too of course.

Shot has limitations. It's below the average speed of 3 as opposed to above it, so it's almost always going to be going second as opposed to drive which will often be able to hit first and stun an opponent. It also doesn't allow for any re-positioning which can be a big deal for some matchups. Troll no be saying that shot is weak, but 3 is an incredibly important number in BattleCON. Having priority greater than 3 and being able to keep that advantage by being able to ante Priority +2 if you be worried about it to consistently lets you outright win against a whole lot of attack pairs and at least trade against many others.

In fact either the priority of the stun guard help drive a lot.

Mind you, Troll mostly just objecting to the idea that Shot be by far the best base with the addition of Force Gauge. It certainly be one of the stronger bases and it will continue to be used often, but it depends a lot on the matchup (and which cards be in the discard at any given time.) Perhaps there be more characters for whom it will take a step up, but there be plenty of kits that even with 4 stun guard it still no be the universal counter (especially with the ability to ante the +1 power.) Perhaps GreyICE will have different experiences, but Troll no be seeing it as dominant play in the games that Troll has played because so many characters have some way to overcome stun guard or attacks at various ranges.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

If Accountant has any interest in playing forum games, just let us know. Troll has only played Seth against Lixis. Troll found it more stressful than many matchups. Seth do be a character with plenty of potential though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Seth's finisher, if you no be in a huger hurry, do be very nice. It no ends the game right away like some others, but it was a huge advantage and be nicely in line with the rest of Seth's abilities. Troll would say it be one of the most thematic at the very least.

Force Gauge no be too much of an issue for Seth; him still uses his guess of a base to cover the possible opponent attack pairs, but also has the force gauge to both cover some weaknesses, but also needs to be aware that the opponent might use it. Did there be a particular question about the force gauge you had in mind?

In general, probably be a good choice to main if you plan to play them at all. The experience in play will pay off with any character, but Seth probably benefits for it more than most.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ah, Troll usually sees that as pbf (play by forum.) We be using spoilers which works just fine, though it also be possible to use a moderator that both players submit attack pairs to (it just adds an extra person and time to the mix for the benefit of less need to rely on both players being honest; Troll chooses to go with a belief of honesty unless there be a reason not to.)

Here be Lixis vs. Clive. That was back when Troll made an effort to make it pretty to look at for those who might be trying to follow.

Here be Lixis vs. Magdelina which be ongoing. It now just has enough information for KingdomAces and Troll to follow easily. The threads in general should be easy to identify in Mishmash as Troll has tried to standardize the titles.

As far as new players playing Seth once or twice, Troll suspects that the games would depend on the player. Troll's Seth plays were games 10, 12 and 13 here (and certainly in the first 20 games Troll has played ever,) but Troll no came away with that feeling of knowing how the bases interact was particularly strengthened. Troll has watched a lot of videos on the game though, and Troll finds that the forum games give enough time to not need to boil things down to the base interactions so much as really look at exactly what attack pairs will do. Drive beats Shot in the abstract, but so many things can change whether that be true when Styles, UAs, board position and the force gauge be added that knowing that interaction on it's own be less helpful to Troll.

In any case, if Accountant do be interested in playing then just let Troll know! Troll or probably KingdomAces would most likely be happy to play. GreyICE might as well. We could even try to run a tournament if we had at least 4 interested players.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

*nods* that be fair enough. Troll wonders if you have seen This BattleGuide on Seth? If not it might be interesting to watch if you plan on maining Seth. Marco has done videos for all the characters which often be worth watching in Troll's opinion, but Seth be particularly useful both because Marco has some insight on the UA that might not be obvious and because Seth be essentially his main.

For forum games, if you like Troll be happy to set one up between the two of us. Do you have any characters you would like to play against? Troll be working through characters to try to get many played. Troll still has many to go, so Troll be pretty open to playing many.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll will go with Mikhail then. He's one Troll hasn't tried and Troll no feels there be anything in the UA that makes Seth particularly dangerous or overpowered. Troll will need a bit to look over the kit, but then Troll will set up a thread in Mishmash!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

UA is unique ability. Seth's Beyond Eyes, Mikhail's Seal Tokens, Cadenza's Iron Body and so forth.

Hmm, Seth vs. Cadenza.

Cadenza do be somewhat predictable and slow, but the stun guard means that he will hit most of the time anyhow and will trade positively. The iron body ante against the omen stun hurts, but the player has to see it coming.

Troll would probably try to play that one at a distance as Seth has enough attack pairs that deal with distances well (causing opponents to miss) that you can almost cover Cadenza and get in a hit or two. It was a big part of what Troll had to try against Lixis where normal trading doesn't work well.

Troll would have to try a matchup to see if that be viable though. Troll also no be any sort of expert at either character, so perhaps there be other was to go about finessing Cadenza that no spring immediately to mind.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Yeah, Grapnel be the only style with range on it, and there only be one style that advances before the end of the beat. The fact that Mechanical be end of beat for the advance actually is something of an issue as you can't stun it with Omen, but dancing around and keeping range as much as possible would be Troll's first attempt at a strategy. Troll would be happy to try to play Seth against Cadenza at some point to see if Troll could manage something, though Troll promises no results.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So do you want to play with the Force Gauge and Dodge as them exist now or do you prefer Special Actions or Dash?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The game be up and ready to go in the Mishmash thread!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So Troll has decided that it be time to try Endrbyt. Does anyone want to destroy Troll in this matchup? GreyICE be welcome to do it using Shot and Hepzibah to dominate Troll, but any other be welcome to step up and smack Troll down as well!

Troll be thinking that Troll's Endrbyt will be as follows:

Reactor Mode
Styles: Capturing, Collection, Displacement, Sonic, Terrifying
Bases: Buster, Burst, Dodge, Drive, Shot, Slice, Strike

Troll would decide the finisher based on the matchup. Troll in theory should decide all of those based on the matchup, but that build looks fun enough for Troll to play.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

That be good advice for Seth play. It actually be similar to how Ottavia should play in many ways. The prediction characters no need to guess correctly every time, them just need to make guesses that will cover good attack pairs that their own attack pair loses to. It opens up the play to be much more forgiving and certainly changes the attack pairs that them be likely to use in positive ways.

When Accountant wants to give Seth another go Troll be down for it! Or, perhaps playing against KingdomAces would be appealing as them be the other player who be most active just now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

That no changes the principles behind the play though. Ottavia no needs to guess correctly; she needs to be able to make a guess to cover holes in her attack pair. Attacks that would lose priority anyhow usually no matter to her, so she isn't trying to guess exactly what the opponent is playing so much as covering her bases. The same as good Seth play should do.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@GreyICE, Troll got distracted before the last game, but does Hepzibah vs. Endrybyt sound like a game you'd be interested in playing?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So back when Troll first mentioned that replacement for the Force Gauge, Troll seems to have had the numbers slightly off. Each player gets 2 of the 40 tokens, not 4 to start with (4 be the total.) That makes the matches about the length Troll feels them should be. It be nice to be wrong sometimes.

Troll has never looked into playing with more than 2 at once, so Troll no knows how the Force Tokens handle that. Perhaps just 20 tokens per player. It be unlikely Troll would ever got to that being important in the foreseeable future anyhow.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@GreyICE, Troll got distracted before the last game, but does Hepzibah vs. Endrybyt sound like a game you'd be interested in playing?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Oh hey, I didn't see this.

Sure, I have little Hepzi experience, but I'll play it.

New tokens solve two huge issues with the game in one motion - the round counter being regularly forgotten, and the force gauge not being an ability that you can actually ante.

And now Troll has been offsite for the past while.

The Hepzibah suggestion was just because that was who you mentioned last time a potential match came up. If you have another character you prefer that be fine with Troll. Troll will still give Endrbyt a go offhand, though perhaps not with quite the kit mentioned before. If you be interested let Troll know who you would like to play and Troll will post a game thread. In theory we can both notice the game at the same time Troll thinks.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll hasn't even played all the characters so that be a tricky one for Troll. Seth, Clive and Mikhail all be fine choices (Troll went with two of them for the tournament Troll played in, and Seth be strong enough.) The others you list all seem fine as well, including Byron who be strong enough and unpredictable enough to be an interesting choice. Troll hasn't played them, but Burman and Baenvier seem strong (you have experience with Baenvier.) Lixis be an annoying matchup for many and probably be worth considering. Mostly Troll would play characters that be fun though, so that no be so helpful an answer. Cesar and Karin probably be in the mix for that then? Maybe Magdelina (who be better with the special style.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Oh, and Tatsumi with the Soak and plenty of movement options. She be strong against many and enjoyable enough to play. Troll would consider her on a team. Were Troll to play in another tournament Troll might go with Tatsumi, Mikhail and maybe Adjenna? Adjenna be interesting and Troll no has played her, but Troll expects she might be banned by some so Troll could actually play Mikhail. Perhaps?

If Accountant wants to play a Tanis game Troll be up for it. Troll could play whoever on spreadsheets. Perhaps Tatsumi.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

As Troll says, Troll be more likely to play characters that be fun for Troll. And without having much experience with about half the cast a feel for the matchups be outside of the range that Troll feels to comfortable having down at this point.

In any case, Troll will set up a spreadsheet game for Tanis and Tatsumi.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh